Latest / Boner and Mirror Tarot / The Eight of Swords is a Rope Bunny
Transcript
- Molly: Hello and welcome to Bona and Mira Tarot, the delightfully irresponsible little sibling of Bona and Mira Tarot. My name is Molly and every week three Tarot cards will end this podcast. One gets fucked, one gets married and one gets pushed off a cliff. It's childish, it is completely subjective and it is surprisingly revealing because if you know me and you know Bona and Mira Tarot, you'll know that I don't believe the Tarot is about predicting the future. It's a mirror. a way of meeting yourself through symbolism and psychology, embodiment and the wisdom of the cards. And Bona Emeritaro takes exactly the same approach, just with a lot more giggling. put three tarot archetypes through the highly scientific and deeply philosophical game of fuck, marry, push off a cliff. Which archetype deserves your undying devotion? Which one's worth a passionate fling and which one absolutely needs to get into the sea? Along the way, we'll explore what the cards reveal about attraction, avoidance, projection, shadow, values, and the wonderfully strange ways we make meaning. Expect depth psychology, archetypes, embodiments, the odd tantric tangents, and plenty of opportunities to laugh at yourself. And if you want to take the game off the podcast and into your own tarot practice, then I've made something for you. A little field guide called Tarot After Dark. It's packed with ridiculous tarot games, guided reflections, explorations of projection and desire. So you can make your own terrible decisions. and then get curious about what the hell that might reveal about you. you can grab it completely free through the link in my show notes or the link in my bio on Instagram. So whether you're here for the psychology, the Tarot or your own deeply irrational grudge against the Seven of Cups, welcome to Bona and Miratorro. Let's shuffle the cards, suspend our dignity, and see who's getting married today. Hello and welcome back to another episode of Bona and Mirror Tarot. I am absolutely delighted to have Irene with me today. So a big welcome to you, Irene. Could you tell people who you are, what it is that you do, your relationship to Tarot and your relationship to meaning making. Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Thanks, Molly. I'm so glad to be here today. And yeah, I am the creator of SoftM Tarot, an indie published tarot deck that I went out with last summer. And in terms of me, I can share a little bit about myself as a tarot reader. I started on this journey about five years ago. and I've always been curious about tarot, but it was one of those things where I tried to learn by myself. It was very, very difficult. And I had to just put that aside until I found a teacher who I was offering free yoga classes to my neighbors, and my neighbor was like, Thank you so much for helping me with my hip. Do you want some free tarot lessons? And I was like, wait, yes. I was like, I did I never even thought. And it just came. And it was just such a so right. And you know, we kind of over wine and RWS, you know, she explained to me some of the cards. And from there, I kind of felt confident to go on my journey self-learning and also going through different group programs with tarot teachers. And kind of from there, I feel like every tarot reader. gets a little bit interested in either creating their own deck or writing a book about tarot. So, I was like, I I want to do something to express my love and my interpretation of the archetype. So I've done different programs and things like that, like offering workshops, going to conferences, but right now collecting decks as well as like sharing my own offering is sort of where I'm really interested in in my journey. And in terms of meaning making, I would say that we're actually quite similar, Molly, because I know that you do yoga and I feel that I bring my yoga and my yogic journey, like what I've learned from like the philosophy and the spirituality, the teachings about the body and the world and like you know, the self into tarot, as well as my values and intersectional feminism. So I really bring those values, those like systems into how I make meaning in in the world around me, how I walk my path. Molly: Thank you so much. What a lovely Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Mm-hmm. Molly: introduction. Yeah, it's so beautiful to hear about the kind of the ways in which we can play with different frameworks to make meaning and how we can use certain lenses that really bring importance to us, Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah. Molly: which is kind of what started this podcast, right? Like I have a real interest in Yeah, in desire and sex, like sex, desire and Tarot. And so that's kind of where the podcast started is using different lenses that mean something to me and marrying them together. And sometimes they marry together really nicely. You know, haven't quite found a way to bring salsa and Tarot together yet, but I'm sure I'll find a way. But Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah. Molly: yeah, this feels like a very, yeah, like a really kind of beautiful way to marry the two together. And I'm so excited, because normally this is where I say, like, I'm gonna shuffle my tarot deck, but I've invited you today to, yeah, we're gonna use your tarot deck for our three card pool today. So the softbem tarot, which is super Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): So Molly: exciting. Are you ready to maybe make some questionable choices on behalf of the Tarot? Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yes, absolutely. Always. Molly: Okay, well when you're ready. Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Okay, we got the first one. Okay. Okay. So Molly: I feel like I'm a guest. You know, like, this is what my guests feel like when I'm doing the awkward pause and shuffle. Like, Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): I know you're Molly: I'm tell me now immediately, what are we getting? Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): No, know. Okay. So the first card is the ten of wands. Molly: Okay. Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): And then the second card that came up was the eight of swords. Molly: well yeah people who are watching this on youtube are gonna have to be so i'm so sorry that my face is so close to the camera like show me Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): You're like and then the last one, I don't know how you feel about this, but we got Queen of Cups. Molly: Whoa, that Queen of Cups is stunning. Stop, I love the mirror. Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): I know but I know that you I know that you hated I think you hated no you hated the Knight of Cups. I think you're o were you did you also d dislike King of Cups as well? Because I remember you were like Molly: I have a strong relationship with most of the court cards, so I can find a reason to hate all of them, to be honest with you. So Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah. That's that's fair. That's actually very healthy. Yeah. Molly: it was the eight of swords, the queen of cups, and was it the ten of swords? Ten of wands. Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): The Ten of Wands. So it's the guy holding all of the wands, but this is my rendition of it. Yeah. Molly: Mmm. I love that. It feels, is it standing kind of on the edge of a cliff? Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yep, sh yes she is. Molly: I love that. It's giving like kind of the full vibes, know, like kind of that edge of the cliff. And isn't that interesting that you've got like the renewed energy of the fall. And then at the same time, you've got the end of the ones and they're two very different energies, but they're still both standing on kind of on that edge of something. I love that. Sorry. That's just a note about my meeting of the cards. Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): my God. Thank you for sharing that. I love that fool connection that you brought in. Yeah. Molly: Hmm, okay. What are your initial ideas about the three cards that have come up? Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Honestly, it's it's hard because I'm not really like this is one of those episodes where it's be like, okay, I don't feel strongly about any of them right now. So it's like we're just gonna have to break it down. I feel like I would marry the Queen of Cups because I'm like in the part of my life where I do want stability and maturity and just someone to like be boring with. Do you know what I mean? It's like I I want that. I don't need the whirlwind romance. I don't need to feel like I don't know what my partner is thinking. And I think that's hot. Like I'm not like I love that. I love that for other people. But right now I'm just like, I I just need someone who can like do the dishes without me having to like tell them. You know. Molly: Mmmmm Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): So I feel like the Queen of Cups is really that emotional maturity. And actually in the soft tarot, queen is actually above the king. So she's like at the top. So she's like, Molly: I like that for her. She wears it. Yeah, Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): She wears the crown. Yeah. So that's Yeah. Molly: I also, but this is the thing, right? And the thing I love about the podcast is people sometimes probably listen to this and they're like, Molly is so fickle because she pushed this card off a cliff last week. But it's so dependent on the three cards that come up. and the other cards that I'm with them. Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah. Molly: And also how I'm feeling like that day. There are some days where I Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): It's true. It's true. Molly: hate the cards and some days that I love them. the given the kind of like the three cards that we've been given, the queen of ones feels like the safest Mary. Sure. Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah. Yeah. Molly: In another episode, I was talking about how I find her very confronting. Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yes. I yeah, that was the one. I think I remember that. Molly: Yeah, that is still true. I feel like a marriage with her would be extremely confronting purely because of my own relationship with depth of feeling. literally Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah. Molly: posted a sub stack this morning about grief and about, it was a very vulnerable post about, like detailed about my mother's death. And Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Mm. Molly: I am just increasingly aware of just how much stuff there still is. It's four years later and there's still so much stuff, four and a half years. But there's so much stuff, so much stuff. And so to enter into a relationship, any relationship with the Queen of Cups, to sit near that mirror, like she's got a mirror next to her with that cup in it, to sit near that mirror is extremely confronting because she is... Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Mm. Molly: all about the mirror and all about the depth and all about the you know like the the capacity like that big capacity to feel and and and be in it and I am about a like a pinky finger or a toe dipped into the level of grief that I have so you know so it would be so confronting for me she would she Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah. Molly: would bring out yeah she would bring out a lot but in Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Love that that that's your, you know, like projection into the Queen of Cups. I find that so interesting and so valid. So yeah. Cause like Molly: Mmm. Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): I I think also too, like we were talking before we started the episode, but I was like, you said that you were Taurus and Earth, Earth, Earth, right? And so I'm very Scorpio. Molly: okay. Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): So I I I think I do enjoy kind of that unc that descent, which can be very uncomfortable and confronting. And I I think I do get a little bit of like a you know, the Scorpio thrill of being a detective at times. Molly: You get a little kick of going down into the underworld. And Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah. I yeah. Molly: I am trying to practise this so hard. know, like I was talking about what, like this, I think the second episode that came out with Danielle, I was talking about how I practise chaos because as a Taurus Virgo Virgo, as a child that was brought up to be very, very perfect academically Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah. Molly: and academically bright, I find the unknown extremely. challenging and so I practice chaos and it's the same with depth of feeling. As someone who's very earthy and likes stable ground, the waters of the unconscious or that kind of traveling down into the depths feels extremely destabilizing and like I'm like clawing onto the rock like no, no, I have to stay but Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. don't take me down there. Yeah. Yeah. Molly: at the same time, a marriage with her would be mature. It would be beautiful. It would be romantic. And she, I'm sure, would be a just like, I'm imagining like that holding space. Because with, Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah. Molly: you know, she also has a capacity to hold the unconscious steps as well. Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): She she wouldn't let you get away with stuff. Like she'd be like, no, we're gonna talk about like the undertones. We're gonna talk about what happened at dinner, you know? So it's like, I I kind of feel like she would do it not because she wants to get into a fight or needs to be right, but she would do it because she's like, I care about the relationship. So Molly: Mm-hmm. Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): that might be nice to have someone to push you to be like, look, like we we should talk about this, because you know, it will. the emotions will naturally come to the surface at some point. So we might as well just bring it up, which might Molly: Yeah. Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): not always, if you're the kind of person who's like, I don't need to deal with it today. Or like, do we have to talk about it right now? Or it's like, I kind of want to just like let that be and kind of like, cause it's like not everything that happens is like a thing that needs to be analyzed or emotionally processed. Cause like sometimes I feel like So I think that could also be a flag with her is that she might be always so ready to go deep and sometimes it's like, Wait, I need time to process. I need to I need some space right now. So Molly: I couldn't agree more. Like there's definitely a beauty in that open communication and that like I care so much about this relationship and I care about you and I care about me and my own emotional well-being that I invite you, like I invite us to continuously explore that and then there are some times where I'm like that we don't need this conversation. I'm bored. But Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Molly: if the other two options are Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah. The Molly: are exhaustion or someone who is so stuck in their own heads then I mean it's a no-brainer right like that it has to be marrying the queen of cups I'm not married Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah. I mean, like I just I'm sorry, like I have to be so like realistic and practical. Like I have to think about me. I have to think about my own emotional regulation right now. but you know, if I was thinking, if I was like in my early 20s, I'd be like, I need something a little bit more exciting. But right now I'm just like, no. Molly: I don't think the other two cards are gonna give you anything exciting anyway. Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah. I'm I'm kind of conflicted because I feel okay, I'm kind of feeling okay, what is it? Fuck Mary Kill. I think Molly: or push of a class. Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): fuck Mary Kill. push off a cliff, right? So Molly: for Cliff. The Cliff thing really I like to imagine how they would receive the push. Yeah like in my head Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): That's how you do Okay. Yeah. But the attention, yeah. Molly: yeah like in my head there are some characters like who was it we I mean spoiler there was another episode where we pushed our 10 of ones off of Cliff and I imagined him like still holding on to the wands, think Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah. Molly: like as he goes down. Or the seven of cups, Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah. Molly: all the jewels are everywhere and he's like, no. It just adds a layer Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah. Molly: of imagination into the game. Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): This is how, yeah, we need to imagine how they find their demise. okay, so I I kind of feel I'm just gonna go with my initial instinct unless you have something you want to share first. Molly: No, please. Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): I think that I would fuck the eight of swords. Molly: Okay. Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah, I I don't know. There's I think there's just something with like the swords and like the rope and the bondage that kind of is like I feel it could be interesting in the bedroom. So, eight of swords is obviously the blindfolded person again. And they're kind of feeling trapped. But I don't know, I kind of think that that might be interesting to explore in the bedroom. Like some bondage, some just like power. like that emotional intensity, which I feel is like in the head. And like, you know, they say like for women, like we get really turned on by like. what what is communicated to us like through our ears. And so I feel like, okay, there's there's a lot of fantasy at play here. so I don't know. I kind of like and the the darkness and kind of like of the card as well is kind of what I'm drawn to. Molly: I'm so so intrigued by by this choice and and I say this my initial instinct was like the eight of swords for me is that kind of wrapped up in story right like the swords Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah. Molly: general is the wonderful ways in which our brain deceives us and in some cards it doesn't like the ace the ace is great there's no deception there but like a lot of the swords is like how we make meaning and how sometimes our brain makes meaning for us, even though we didn't ask it to. And so the Eight of Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Mm-hmm. Molly: Swords, like there was another episode where I spoke about the Eight of Swords and I sort of said, know, like, this is somebody who is stuck in that, like not good enough, no way out. Like, and would I want to fuck that? No, I wouldn't. But Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah. Yeah. Molly: you have illuminated a part of the card for me in that Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): I Molly: kind of... Yeah, that bondage of like, there's always that element of rope. And I think what's quite nice is that most depictions of the Eight of Swords, there's always this depiction of sovereignty or at least like, what's Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Mm-hmm. Molly: the word that I'm looking for? Like this kind of self power where they're normally the person that's holding the rope anyway. Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah. Molly: In the light seers, like she's not actually bound at all. And so I imagine there's quite a lot of, yeah, power or authority in that kind of bondage, but also the capacity to be like, and that's my boundary and that's enough, I'm taking the rope off. And so what I'm super intrigued by is if I imagine, if I kind of strip away my initial, like, this is someone who's just very anxious and think Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah. Molly: about my own exploration with like, rope or blindfolds because I did a piece of academic work last, was it last year? No, two years ago from the first year of my masters and we were exploring a part of ourselves that we wanted to just get in touch with and the part of myself was my inability to sit with the unknown which is Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Mm. Molly: something that I've already mentioned in this episode and so I remember exploring with a blindfold and with somebody that I was really close to and having that feeling of I have no idea what I look like or how I'm being perceived right now. If there's rope, then I have even less control of how I'm being perceived. And for me, that piece of the unknown of why I find the unknown so challenging is because I can't control how people perceive me. So like if I, Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah. Molly: if I can, you know, to the minute detail of like kind of manipulate a situation so that someone perceives me in a certain way, then I don't have that raw, my God, what does someone think of me? Which in Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah. Molly: kind of that blindfold and rope space, that element of like, I really just have to settle into being perceived by somebody as I am. And holy damn, is that a interesting place to be in and pretty hot. Pretty hot. Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah. It's pretty freeing in that sense to be bound up. And what you're saying reminds me of so I'm also like really into romance novels like like historical bodice rippers and some like dark stuff right now. But so you know, a big thing that interests me about romance novels is also like the discourse around it and some interesting like like why do we like the stuff that we like? When in the story, in a fictional story with made-up characters, this is one of the safest ways to explore taboo or fantasy or things that we would never want for ourselves in real life, but we want to explore and engage with that. And also knowing that, like, you know, we we can separate fantasy and reality, right? and so when this happens in the story. it's a way for the reader to feel like they can give in to their desires without all the baggage that comes with like saying that you like sex or like saying you certain things. because you know of all the chastity and virginity and all the like stereotypes we put on women who, you know, express their desires. so yeah, going back to the Eight of Swords and like the the wrapping and everything and also the fact that as you point out it's like a lot of the times these depictions of this figure they they the bondage is loose. So there is that idea of like consent and like boundaries and like I can get out of this if I want to. And so and also like it's hard because I also would not like fuck this person because I I also think too I'd be like ugh like this person's like too this person might be too like anxious in bed and I don't want to deal with that. But it's like Okay, out of the cards here, it's like we'll make do and we'll like we'll create a fantasy out of the bondage and hopefully we can kind of like work with this person's anxiety and create some like fun times. Yeah. Molly: I love that. I really love that kind of what you said about the fantasy and exploring taboo and desire. And I think that The Eight of Swords gives us that opportunity to do that. Would I choose it as my top, maybe not even top 10, of if I had to choose who to fuck in the deck. Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah. Yeah. Molly: But with the options that we have been given, I think Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah. Molly: it is a yeah it's an interesting exploration and I certainly think that the ten of ones would just be too tired. Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah, like that's the thing. It's like in my deck, I tried to put a more positive spin on it because like with my deck, I just wanted to create something that made me feel like whatever card I pull out will give me a positive, affirming feeling. but I do have to admit that like I just don't want to it just feels like work. It feels like It feels like for me the Ten of Wands has always given me this God, whenever I get it, I'm like, yeah, I know I'm working too hard. I know I'm working too hard. And this is the, you're going to be exhausted. You're gonna get sick. And I have like s I always get this card a lot. So I don't really want to engage with it more than I have to. I probably need to so you know, it would be best for me right now to huck it off the cliff. It's because the thing is I know that we talked about the swords being like the mind making a lot of stories and how this person will be kind of finicky in bed. But then I kind of feel like in this context, maybe like you know, the person with the swords, like it would be it would be an experience. Like I I don't think it would be like my favorite time in the bedroom, but I think it would be like, okay, like that was that happened. Ten of Wands, I feel like egg the exhaustion. But also I feel like they would have to I feel very type A energy from it. they're exhausted because they are so, we need to do this, like this. We need there's no we can just take a break. We don't have to do it today, you know? Like we can just do another day. I feel like they'd be very stubborn. They'd be very like, it's kind of like head banging on the wall, kind of a vibe where I'm like, ugh, like they don't want to like take in other people's opinions. So it's like, okay, why would I want to have that as my partner or as someone in the bedroom? So Molly: Mmm. Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): it would be nice to just you know what, maybe we just throw their wands off the cliff and then we can see. Yeah. Molly: or them. Yeah. Let me take these for you because you've taken on too much and you're making yourself ill and I'm gonna throw them off. I mean, that is a potential solution. And I do think that they're, like, of course, the ones are a fiery passionate suit. So, They're a bit of a sexy suit anyway, but by the time we get to the 10, they've Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah, yeah. Molly: taken on too much. They've said yes to everything. And I like a word of affirmation. I like somebody that is in the present moment that is with me. And I have a fear that the 10 of wands would give me this feeling that they're like, I've already said yes. Okay, okay, we'll go on a date. Okay, we'll do that. I'm like, no, no, I Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah, yeah. Molly: want someone to not have all the wands that they're holding. and just be with me. whilst Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah. Yeah. Molly: I absolutely adore the idea of throwing the wands off the cliff for him and seeing what is underneath, that is not the game. We're going to have to chuck him as well. I'm so sorry. He's just going to have to go off. Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah. And you know what that's the thing. It's the mindfulness. You're right. Because it's like the the figure is not even looking at you. And so it's the idea of like, are you are you here in the room? And like I Molly: there. Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): know with the Ten of Wands, it's like I am trying to do a more empowering version of them, but you know, it's again, the person is not facing even in my card. she's not facing me. she has a better relationship with the wands than she would have with me. Like, Molly: Yeah. Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): in this one, you know, she's got kind of she's in a more like welcoming relationship with the wands where it doesn't feel like they are defeating her. Like there's a more of like, it's all there for you, but you don't have to do it all at the same time, kind of a vibe where it's like. Molly: Mm-hmm. Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): But then then again, it's like, okay, well, you are very focused on what you have going on, which is like respect. But it's like we we need to be in a some connection together. And I feel like they are so focused on their own thing that I feel like I'd be the tagalon. Where it's like, okay, you can be with me, but you gotta you gotta be focused on watching the wands with me, there's no like I want Molly: Bye. Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): someone to also be pouring back into me. Like I have things that I care about and I hope that you would, you know, give some of that. Attention onto me. Whereas the wands, I feel it's like that's them, and you kind of have to be part of their entourage. Molly: Yeah, like even in the like the most exhausted depiction and your depiction which is you know, really beautiful and positive there is still that element of me that is like, they are you know, very very focused on the plethora of things that they have in the exhausted depiction they can't pick up anymore and even in your depiction Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah. Molly: then they're not maybe willing to kind of turn their heads. They're like, yeah, Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah. Molly: you can stand next to me as I look at my wands. Are you enjoying this? Are you having fun watching me watch my wands? And Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Molly: you're like, are we actually gonna do anything? Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah. Molly: So yeah, I do think that it will have to go off a cliff, but that makes me, I feel like we've done it. We're Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah. Molly: gonna marry the queen of cups. We're gonna fuck the eight of swords and have a very interesting evening looking at bondage. I'm so sorry, 10 of 1s. For the second time on this podcast, you are going to the cliff. Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): I know. Second time! my god. I'm so curious, like, because I'm sure the Ten of Wands will come up again. And I wonder in which permutation would you actually be with the Ten of Wands? Like it has to be with like Molly: Which three cards would have to come out for me to not push the 10 of ones? I don't know. We'll Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, I know. We'll see. Molly: see. I did like a calculation the other day of like how many episodes could I get out of this? Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah. Molly: 78,000 different combinations of three cards out of 78 cards apparently. So in... Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): my god. So you gotta do okay. Molly: Episode 60,000 maybe I'll decide Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah, yeah. Molly: to keep the 10 of Wands. But I have two more questions for you. Who Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Mm. Molly: is out of all of the deck the sexiest card and who is the biggest walking red flag? Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah, I I saw your episodes and I went, I and then you had already invited me. And then I went, I should probably have an answer for this. And now and I was like, I forgot to prepare myself. I prepare I forgot to prepare my key message. But I I would say that the sexiest for me right now, I do have to say that it's it's very predictable and obvious. But yes, I do I endured one of the wands and I think And especially in my depiction of the wands, I really liked the Knight of Wands. Molly: The fuck boy. Can you find him? Can we see your version? Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): yeah, so this is my knight of wands. Molly: Ooh, is she holding an apple? Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): She's holding a heart. Molly: Ooh, I mean, I went to Apple because it was like, know, twice at the cover. Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah, oops. yeah, yeah, yeah. I so basically this comes from another pop cultural reference. So I'm a bit are you into Anne Rice Interview the Vampire? Molly: I mean, I have seen it. I haven't read it. Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah, okay. So I when I was a teenager, like the first three novels and her vampire chronicles, which like she wrote thirteen and I'm like, my god. But so I only stopped after Queen of the Damned. But Queen of the Damned was the Anne Rice movie that came out when I was a teen. Interviewed the vampire. I was like I think I was like three when it came out. So, you know, it wasn't like my time, but obviously I watched it. But by the time I was a teen, the Queen of the Damn movie was like the thing that was you know what I was there for. And it's a I will just say without any apologies and with and any I'm just gonna say I love the movie and the book was great too. And it was like very influential. Like I loved it. and so the Knight of Wands sort of is a reference to Queen of the Damned and in the movie Aaliyah she does something with a heart and a bar scene. that does I don't yeah, so so that's a reference there to the vampiric influences that I put into the court cards because Molly: Mm-hmm. Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): in Soft Vamtaro, I kind of wanted to play with feminine monsters, you know, just in general, like not having too specific or hard like stereotype references. But in the Knight of Wands, I put that one of Queen of the Dam. So that's why I kind of have like a tender feeling, a like a very deep. passion for it because it's not really about the fuck boy. It's more just about the sensualness of like women and how I find women and men too, but I find women a very beautiful form to look at of beauty. And I find the Knight of Wands. Like I wanted to keep that kind of like sexiness, but I didn't really connect with the fuck boy because I I just like there's just nothing there. There's nothing there. but whereas like I I found, you know, vampiric females and like that idea of like life giving, life taking and sort of you know, vampires are very erotic creature. So, which is interesting because they're also like death, but yeah, I kinda went to play with those Molly: Mm. Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): kind of kind of things. So that's why I have a little bit of like love. But yeah, it does kind of look like Twilight in a way, but yeah. Molly: another vampire reference. I I love that gorgeous and as far away from the standard fuckboy that we get. like, hell yeah, I'm up for that. Love that. Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah. Molly: And who is your biggest walking red flag? Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah, my god, I forgot. my biggest red flag when I when I see it come up, I'm just kind of like, God. not in my deck because I kind of changed the interpretations it, but I would guess say right now, I'm kind of thinking either the magician or wheel of fortune. Molly: Ooh, okay. Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): whenever I get those two cards, sometimes I kind of feel like and so what? Like I want I feel like with Wheel of Fortune, this person is always going to be kind of like changing their mind too much, Molly: Mm. Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): but doing it in a way where like I feel like it would annoy me. Because it's always like so up to chance, kind of Molly: Hmm. Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): just feeling like there's no structure. And Molly: Yeah. Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): and I don't know, there's something about the Wheel of Fortune where there's just so like like you're you're acting like there's no care in the world. but but it's kind of a facade. And I I kind of feel like it's kind of like stumbling into things. Now I'm kind of thinking about the full right now. But I think with the Wheel of Fortune, there's this idea of like no structure, no plan, and also just kind of like acting like everything is okay, gambling, risking life. that doesn't seem like always something that I can relate to. And then the magician yeah, with the magician, I think it's the idea of like the impulse and the initiation and just being like, I just imagine someone saying that they're going to like do it, and then it's like, we'll do it. Like just Molly: Mm-hmm. Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): freaking take the step. Like I've heard you say it so many times. Just do it. And and you know, it's like I believe in the power and I love the magician because it's like, ugh, like that. As above, so below, and like that, that feeling is so important. But I'm also just getting a sense of now we're just daydreaming and we're putting together a business plan, but we're not actually taking any steps. we're just fantasizing and we're idealizing, which is fine if that's what you want to do. But I think sometimes, I guess in this moment right now, I'm feeling like we need to take the impulse and harness it somewhere. Or else it's like it doesn't interest me as much to engage in a conversation Molly: Mm. Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): with you. Molly: yeah i love that the wheel of fortune for me is such an interesting card because i had a difficult relationship difficult relationship with it for so long when i first started reading Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yes. Yeah. Molly: tarot i i really didn't like the card purely because any guidebook is like chance fate sometimes life is good and sometimes it's bad Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah. Molly: and you're as a reader you're like right okay how the fuck am i supposed to read that for somebody like Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah, great. Molly: Somebody just comes to me for some Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Thank you. Molly: insights and I'm just going, it might be bad, it might be good, who knows? Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Well you don't know, you know? Molly: We don't know what notes. And I, and of course this was in my like baby tarot years before I developed the style of reading that I have. But I've developed a better relationship with it where I relate it to my fear of the unknown, right? Like there's this, I imagine Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Mm. Molly: this kind of, you know what, you know the playground wheels that kind of get on and spin on. And if you're standing on the edge Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah. Molly: of the wheel, then everything, the twists and turns of life feels so, fast and you know like you just being whipped around but when you kind of come into center and you build that sense of resilience and inner resilience then it's easier to withstand. All of that to say that I've got a better relationship with it now but I totally understand that feeling of like is it good is it bad I don't know and you're kind of like well you should fucking know come on get your shit together you should know yeah Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Get it together. Give me an event. No, but I I you know what? And that's why I have to caveat my responses because I feel like I just kind of went with my stereotypical little black book interpretation. Because it's it's like, yeah, like I I like these different ideas of Wheel of Fortune, which is what you're saying about the acceptance of the unknown or kind of a different embodiment of that state. And also like, I like the ideas of And daughters of the moon tarot, the depiction for Wheel of Fortune is Spider Woman, which I thought was really cool and powerful. And also on my deck, too, I play around with mythological figures of the fates and like the weaving and like the web. And so I kind of yeah, so I think there's ways to kind of like appreciate all the archetypes, but I was like, I need one, I need one. Molly: There has to be some and you know, like I think this is the beauty of the podcast, right? Like in the outside world when we finish recording, we absolutely Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah. Molly: have a very deep reverence for all of the cards. Right Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yes. Molly: now, one of them has to be a red flag and today it was the Wheel of Fortune who can't Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah. Yeah. Molly: make his mind up and who Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah. Molly: doesn't know what's happening and the Miniature Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah. Molly: who's got so much potential but just is not Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah. Molly: delivering. Irene (Soft Femme Tarot): Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for saying that. Molly: and I love you. Thank you so much. no, thank you, thank you. Thank you for coming on. Thank you for being so open and honest and thoughtful and just absolutely delighted that we got to use your deck today. What an amazing thing for the podcast to have my first deck creator and to use that deck to have this conversation. I'm gonna wrap up the conversation here and say a big thank you to you. I'm deeply, deeply grateful. Yeah, so big, thank you and thank you to our listeners for listening. Do you agree? Do you disagree? Would you have also pushed the 10 of ones off a cliff? I have a feeling that most of you will have done. And yeah, I'm gonna just say keep getting curious, keep playing silly games with the Tarot and until next time, bye-bye. And that is a wrap for this episode of Bona and Mira Tarot. A huge thank you to my guests for joining me and making some truly questionable life choices on behalf of the tarot. If you've enjoyed this episode, I would love it if you subscribed, left a review or shared it with someone who would definitely have an argument with a tarot card. And if you've been listening and thinking, I need to play this game, then good news, I have made you something. Tarot After Dark is my completely free field guide to desire, projection and questionable relationships with archetypes. Inside, you'll find Fuck, marry, push off a cliff, tarot date, red flag, green flag, unfortunately hot, and a whole collection of ridiculous ways to play with the cards. alongside slightly more serious psychology of why these games can actually tell us something about ourselves. Because sometimes deciding that you'd shag the night of ones is just funny, and sometimes asking why tells you considerably more than you'd expect. You can download Tarot After Dark for free using the link in the show notes or the link in my bio. And if that gets you curious about the slightly more serious side of my work, come and find me at Bone and Mirror Tarot, where I explore Tarot through depth psychology, embodiment and transpersonal practices. You can find me on Instagram at at bone and mirror Tarot, where I share readings, workshops and all the ways that I use the cards as a doorway into understanding ourselves a little more deeply. And finally, if you're listening and thinking I would love to come on the podcast and make some terrible decisions of my own, I would genuinely love to hear from you. Send me a message and let's make it happen. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time, keep laughing, keep getting curious, and remember, we take the tarot seriously, we just don't take ourselves too seriously.