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JM3 Lacrosse Podcast - Season 7, Ep. 2 - Notre Dame Head Coach Kevin Corrigan · JM3 Lacrosse Podcast

• Jamie speaking: This is the JM three Lacrosse Podcast conversations about playing, coaching, and learning the game differently. From player development and skill acquisition to the ideas shaping the future of lacrosse. This is JM three. Jamie Munro: How's going, everybody? Welcome back to the JM3 Lacrosse podcast. Very excited to have Kevin Corrigan, head coach at Notre Dame, on the show. Kevin, so great to have you on, man. How you doing? Kevin Corrigan: I'm great, Jamie. Great to be here with you. Jamie Munro: Yeah, definitely. we've talked to lacrosse fairly often, but we haven't done a podcast in a while. So I'm kinda fired up to get something recorded. Kevin Corrigan: Yeah, I mean, you know, I I'm not sure how long this is gonna take, but I don't think you and I have ever had a conversation under thirty minutes when we start talking lacrosse, right? So y you know, you you you love Jamie Munro: It's so true. There's that was kind of the idea behind the whole podcast was I I talk lacrosse for like eight hours a day. Why don't I just start recording the Kevin Corrigan: Yeah. Jamie Munro: conversations? People might find them interesting. Kevin Corrigan: Yeah. Jamie Munro: all right, a a topic for you to kick it off with is we've both been dads of lacrosse players in high school and college, coached our kids quite a bit, but now we're dads of coaches. you have the opportunity, whether it's good or bad, that you're gonna, you know, you get to coach against your son. My son Colin coaches at Jacksonville. You've coached against him, and my daughter Lucy is now full time assistant at Northwestern. it's kind of awesome to see full circle our kids grow up and and and kind of share the same passion for the game, isn't it? Kevin Corrigan: No question. No, it's it's it's a great thing. putting your kids out there and talking about them doing what we do, it's awesome. It's it's so much fun to to have something to share like that with them. Jamie Munro: And I will also say that I have so much enjoyed my relationship with your son Will when he came out and was an intern for me, I think after a sophomore year in college with 3D lacrosse and we coached together and pretty much spent the whole summer talking lacrosse. And at that point you kind of knew he was gonna be a coach. I mean, he was preparing himself to be a coach. And now he's at the University of Michigan. And how much how much do you guys talk and shop, When when you see each other now that you got now that you're granddad, you're gonna be around probably even more. how Kevin Corrigan: Yeah. Jamie Munro: much how much lacrosse talk and conversations did you guys have? Kevin Corrigan: Yeah, well first of all, you know, that time with you was was pretty important for him in deciding that he did want to be a coach and doing the doing the coaching and and being outside of the family of what we were doing that you know, you were a great influence on him and I always appreciate that and and and I've been still, you know, a mentor to him. you know, it's funny when when when we call to talk to to Will and his wife Joy and and You know, want talk to the grandkid, we got a three year old and a and a twelve week old and you know, wanna see the kids and everything else. But at some point the the conversation devolves into lacrosse and that's when Liz is like, All right, I'm out. You're you guys you Jamie Munro: Yeah. Kevin Corrigan: g you guys go. And I think Julian and Liz you know, mm leave the room and we and we get back to talking about lacrosse again inevitably, right? Or or recruiting or whatever's Jamie Munro: Hundred percent. Kevin Corrigan: going on at the moment, right? So it's a great thing. we talk a lot about it, you know, it it's just, you know, something we're both passionate about, something we love. We talk about our teams, we talk about, you know, the the greater lacrosse world, the greater athletic world. Everything is happening out there, you know. I was lucky enough to grow up with the perspective of a guy who was in college athletics his entire life and and and now I've got a brother, you know, who's who's doing the same thing as an administrator and And I've been coaching so so Will kinda has that same thing, right? Growing up with people who've who this is this is what they love and and care about and and and professionally what they've what they've spent their whole careers doing. Jamie Munro: Totally. It's actually kind of funny too because when Will came out to Colorado for that summer, the team we were coaching together was of course my son's team. And two of those kids Kevin Corrigan: Yeah. Jamie Munro: on that team ended up going to Notre Dame, Charlie Leonard and Keaton Comatz. it's been fun. I mean, I I honestly have always looked at you as a mentor. I mean, you're you're not like that much older than me, but just enough that I remember at the old run and shoot camps, just picking your brain on stuff. And I think you kinda looked at Mike Waldvol a little bit that way for yourself. And he was my boss Kevin Corrigan: A hundred percent. Yep. Jamie Munro: at the time. And I remember stopping out, I might have said this on a podcast before, but on my way out to Denver in the summer of nineteen ninety eight, I made a stop, as I've done many times on my drive across the country to say hello to to you at Notre Dame. And I remember the Joy Center had literally just been built. in any case Kevin Corrigan: Well. Jamie Munro: It's kinda cool how we keep looping we're looping it back through. maybe Colin will start coaching Will's kid and Will's kids and my daughter Lucy will and we'll just kinda keep it going. Kevin Corrigan: Exactly. Yeah. We'll we'll Lucy can stay at at Northwestern and and Soleil'll be ready for her in about sixteen years. So Jamie Munro: Yeah, exactly. so one of the things that I've always appreciated about you is that you always want to you're always learning. you're always reading new books, meeting with coaches, thinking outside the box with other sports. And like you said, you've got so many influences from your family, from your dad, who was a longtime A D and commissioner of the ACC, right? And as well as you know, all the amazing and the cross Kevin Corrigan: La cross coach. But Jamie Munro: coach, yeah. Kevin Corrigan: and yeah. Jamie Munro: That was like so far behind before my time, I I'd sort of forgotten about that. Kevin Corrigan: Yeah. Jamie Munro: but and also like just the the amazing staff of coaches at at Notre Dame. I'm just curious what you've learned lately. Like what what who have you met with? Who have you talked to? What books have you read? I know that's a lot, but I would I think the listeners Kevin Corrigan: Yeah. Jamie Munro: would love to hear. Kevin Corrigan: Well, I mean in the in the you know, just in the last few weeks I've been I've been to football practice a few times, you know, and and and I love to go and watch the different coaches, you know, 'cause they they cycle a few coaches through there over the years and you get to watch these different guys who you you you end up w you know, showing up as assistant coaches or head coaches all over the the country and and in the NFL and everything else. And so you you get to watch these guys when they're just position coaches at at Notre Dame. as well as watching Marcus and the way he manages the practice and and what he does. the the influence of of nowadays, all the analytics and everything, they've got real time analytics going on so that they're they're adjusting practice on the fly by based on based on these analytics because they because frankly, you know, we all know, you know, ki ha having your guys healthy is is the first thing. They Jamie Munro: Yeah. Kevin Corrigan: don't do you any good if they're if they're all ready to go, all tuned up and and on the sideline. because they pulled a a hamstring or something, right? And so the the that that part is watching how they integrate that into into their their operation is is is something I'm I'm trying to to you know recognize. We we don't have the same level of attention to detail. We don't have real time analytics, but we do we do use them, the the catapult information and all of that kind of stuff, working with our strength coach, working with our trainer. who's also a physical therapist and all that. So so trying to integrate that is something I'm trying to get better at. I you know, I've never I've never really been an AI guy, but I'm I'm trying to learn how to use that a little bit, in in those in those areas, right? and and and to and to make sure we're doing a good job with that, at least you know, given the resources that we do have. reading all the time, you know, reading a g you know, Jim Collins, Good to Great, is one of my favorite all-time Jamie Munro: Yeah. Kevin Corrigan: books. And he wrote a book this summer, or came out this summer, called What to Make of a Life. And it's a it's a comparative study about pairs of people and and their their path professionally and personally, and and and and as he does in his thing, he's very much into long research projects that tell him. where the book is gonna go. And instead of starting with a premise that he wants to prove with his research, he starts with research and and and pulls out, you know, the the premise that he wants to take as, you know, a common experience worth expanding on. So he's that's a really good book. And I'm reading Bob Rotella's book, his latest book, and and Bob is a is a sports psychologist Who came to the University of Virginia in 1977 when I was a senior in high school to start the sports psychology program at at UVA. was a former lacrosse guy, and and just one of the great guys of all time. I love Bob. He's just he's so smart and and so good. He's now he's now probably the top sports psychologist in in the golf world. has written a bunch of books, has done a bunch of stuff, and and you know, so That's that's pretty cool. Jamie Munro: What did you learn? what's what are some of the things you've learned from Bob over the years and more specifically late in his last book? Kevin Corrigan: wow. I mean, you know, it's it's almost impossible to say what I've learned from him over the years because Jamie Munro: Yeah. Kevin Corrigan: he we we it's been a a a conversation that's gone on and on. But you know, the biggest thing with Bob is it i is and it's great because it's the thing about Bob is that Bob is all about he's not one of those smart guys who makes tries to make you think he's smart because he he can explain things in ten different ways. He's one of the really smart guys who knows that the The trick is to simplify everything and boil it down. And and his thing is just like me, I think it the title of his book might be Make Your Next Shot Your Best Shot. and that's kind of his that's everything that he talks about, everything that he does is sort of to his boiling it down to get rid of all the baggage, get rid of, you know, trust your trust your training, trust your, you know, you have to do the work, you have to have the the discipline to do the work and do all that. But but mentally, your best place to be is. I know what I'm doing and I just to be totally in this moment as I'm doing it with full confidence that I that I'm gonna do it correctly is is where I wanna be. And then even if that ball goes in the lake or ends up in the rough, standing over the next shot with the exact same approach and then standing over a putt, whether it's two feet or or twenty five feet, the exact same way. I mean trusting everything, believing in in yourself and and and simplifying it down to getting getting that that Correct, right? And so that's you know, he works with with Kentucky basketball or he was he's with Coach Cal, so he's now with Arkansas 'cause him and him and and Coach Cal are real close and and so you know so he's he's done it with a lot of different sports with with some of the very top guys and in fact when I when I was watching the the Ryder Cup, I knew he worked with with a number of the guys in in on both sides. And so I texted him as they were going down the wire, you remember how how close that came at the end and and and I'm like, Yeah man, I hope you're there and he's like, I'm standing right next to the green, you know, it was you know, so so he's he's had some amazing experiences and and he hey has the opportunity to practice what he does with the very best guys in the world, you know, and and and I think there's a awful lot of value in that because it's not it's not stuff that's in his head or in a book. It's stuff that's that he sees play out, you know, week Jamie Munro: Right. Kevin Corrigan: after week. Jamie Munro: Tangible. Have you been able to apply s sports like concepts to your team or do you kind of leave that to the sports site guys? And how much is that a part of your program? Kevin Corrigan: So it what I've and and it's funny, Bob was here, his daughter went to school at Notre Dame and she was a golfer and and I had to meet with our staff a few times, but I unless my way of thinking about that is unless he's embedded in our program in a in a serious way, the way he is with with like the you know, Coach Cal's basketball teams, where he's getting constant updates, getting to know the kids, getting to know everything, then it's almost more disruptive to have this guy come in and You know what I mean? And not not not disruptive. That he could obviously tailor it to a group audience, Jamie Munro: Yeah, sure. Kevin Corrigan: but it's better that the coaches are aware of what we're trying to accomplish in that way. And and that we as a practice, you know, kind of do that and keep those things those things in mind. So that's how we've used it and how I use it is mainly to educate myself so that I can do a better job in helping our guys with the mental approach that they take to to practice to a game, to a to a you know, to a specific situation. Jamie Munro: I I talked to Will a fair amount about the the book, The Inner Game of Tennis. Have you read that one? Kevin Corrigan: I have, yeah, that's a great book and and I know Will's a you know, a big fan of that. I thou that's one that somebody gave me gosh, I mean I'm gonna say thirty something years ago here when I when Jamie Munro: Yeah, it's all it's an old one. Kevin Corrigan: I was here, yeah. Jamie Munro: I find that so interesting, especially because I'm so into this ecological dynamics and I and I think as this in the constraints led approach and one of the big points of that book is you know the sports psych of being in the moment, but also that you have to try to create external an external focus rather than an internal focus. Meaning like if you try to think, you know. if if coaches are are really specific about your grip or your hand position or where your feet are, it it takes your focus out of your perception of what's happening around you and into your own body. And this has been, you know, something that's been studied as l less effective. It actually disrupts the the the self organization of the human body, whereas the external focus can allow you to achieve You know, complete the task, achieve the big picture task rather than the the focus. And I was curious if you think about that at all Kevin Corrigan: I d I do, but I think in you know, you can't have one without the other. You know, if if if your fundamentals stink because you've never been taught how to place your feet or where to place your feet and you and you don't have the self-discipline or the or the haven't done the the reps to practice something and get to the point where you do those things correctly, then then you're also gonna lose. You know, you're you you can be as mentally prepared as you want to, but you're in the wrong spot. You're setting the the pick at the wrong angle, your your timing is off or whatever else. And so you you you have to have both. It's it's not you can't just simply send a guy out there, huh? Jamie Munro: You do. I totally agree. But I don't think that's the point is in that you don't need both. The point is in Yeah. Kevin Corrigan: No, no, I'm but I'm just saying as a as a practitioner, you have to do both. You have to you have to teach the one and you have to you have to teach that in a certain way and and then you have to prepare them in a way where they they play with that awareness and they trust those habits and those and those things that you've built in practice. But as a practitioner of it, you can't just s come in and say, Well, we're gonna spend our time concentrating on this because this is where the payoff is. It's like Only if only if they're both in place. Jamie Munro: No, I listen, I totally agree with you. And that's why I wanted to br you know popped into my head. I thought was an interesting concept. But I mean, the mechanics exist. They kind of have to be done, whether it's throwing mechanics or or leverage mechanics. I mean, these things matter. it's it's more like thinking about how can I make I mean, you can show it on film. That's one of the best ways probably to like explain what you mean. But then try to create an external focus to make it happen. So in other words, instead of like getting somebody to like bend the, you know, focus on bending your knees and and getting, you know, to to to get a good hold on a guy, if you were to sort of say, like, get your stick to his hip, all of a sudden, it would be more of an external focus. rather than like which way you're pointing your feet. maybe you try to get outside of his body a little bit or it is square up to him or, you know, find a way. I'm just, you know, kind of brainstorming because I have found that external focus is one of the most challenging things for me to learn. and I know, for example, like in basketball, I ask Alex Arama this very question, and and you know, in instead of like bending your knees on your jump shot, shoot with a higher arc. is are some of the ways that they kind of think about it. in the book The inner game of tennis, so much of it is all about an external focus because when you begin focusing on yourself, then self two takes self one takes over and self two goes in the background. And and so I I just find it really interesting. And I always try to think of these way various ways to try to teach anything from defensive ball pressure to, you know, to f throwing and catching. And it doesn't mean you can't use a constraint, you know, if if a if a player's hands are really too far apart, you know, you might say, like, I want you to use this constraint where your hands have to be all the way together, or maybe you have to spread them all the way apart, or maybe you have to lift your hands really high. And then all of a sudden you're kind of using constraints to try to achieve the things that you're trying to achieve. but I I I couldn't agree more. And I think that's like one of the misconceptions about constraint slot approach and ecological dynamics is that you're you're ignoring all that. ignoring this stuff. The more is like how are you getting people to do it with an external focus in the use of constraints? Kevin Corrigan: Yeah. You know, I mean there's different ways to talk about it too. You don't you know, the I mean restraint sled approach is is a is a great, you know concept and and a and a true and I I believe in it and everything else. I never used those words in my life in in coaching, but I coach that way. You know, I mean every drill that we do is is basically a reduction of some some situation into we you know, we we into the what we feel is you w the teaching concept that we're most trying to get across in that moment and and and having them, you know, do that so that then and then helping them recognize that within the bigger game and within the the larger you know, play of things and and and so it's it's it is that. It's just I Jamie Munro: It is. Kevin Corrigan: I I w you know, constraints played concepts with that n those are words I never even heard till, you know, a few years ago. But I've been coaching for forty years the same way. So You know, like I say, you can talk about it in a lot of different ways, but if you don't talk about it, you're missing the boat, right? And and and it's it's you know, it's it's the same with I mean, you know, I I talk about things that when when I'm talking about what you're talking about the external focus, I it's just like you've gotta have an awareness, you know, you've got to play within awareness and you gotta have an adaptability within within what you're doing that that that is, you know, kind of real time awareness and and and adjustments that you have to be able to make. Call that external focus, call that, you know, whatever you want. It's you know, Jamie Munro: Totally. Kevin Corrigan: again, you've you've gotta be able to do it. Yeah, you gotta teach people how to do it and how to do it better and how to do it, you know, as well as they can. Jamie Munro: No doubt. every coach knows how to create a behavior through the constraints that they're using. there's nothing there is nothing new about that. What I found interesting about it is just that by by studying the research and the theory, it just gives me new ideas on how to how to do it in ways that I probably wouldn't have thought of. And I and I think that's like the but most interesting part of the whole thing. Kevin Corrigan: Yeah. Well, I mean, to to your point, that's you know, you're the same and and I I appreciate this about you in the in the same way is like you're you're always trying to learn. You're always trying to expand on what you know and how you can teach something, how you you know listen, i sometimes a concept doesn't change, but how you teach it changes, right? Or evolves Jamie Munro: Hundred percent. Kevin Corrigan: and and and and how you're able to communicate it and how you you know, how you have guys interact about it and on and all that. So, you know, again, to me I'm some of that comes from reading a book that has nothing to do with with what you're talking about. It just all of a sudden something strikes you as, wow, that's a way to say that. That's a way to think about that that I've never done. I it's not n the thing's not new. The way I think about it or the way I talk about it is gonna be new. And and that's that's why to me you need to be a constant learner because you know, you're you're the you're always looking for new ways and better ways to communicate with people and and and to to you know, like you said, il illicit the the the things that you're trying to get. Jamie Munro: Totally. Perfect segue into something that I've always admired about you and your program is just your fulfilled game and your riding and clearing. every time I've come to a Notre Dame practice, which I haven't done in a while, Kev, I need to I need to get out to Notre Dame and check out a practice. Kevin Corrigan: Yeah. Well now that now that you got a daughter permanently staked in in Chicago, maybe we'll see more of you. Jamie Munro: Exactly. Well, and now that I now that I'm I don't have to go to every single game, I can probably go to some Kevin Corrigan: Yeah. Jamie Munro: some some some other contests. but I've just always been blown away by the way that you guys run your full field practice and with the riding and clearing and the transition and probably identifying the difference between you know riding and transition defense and how to figure out How to like not give up transition but still be able to ride. can you just talk big picture about how you kind of view the full field game when you kind of get started in the fall and and and what you're kind of hoping for in the end, big picture principles wise? Kevin Corrigan: Yeah, I mean it part of it goes back to what we're talking about is it's you're you're teaching kind of part whole stuff, right? But but at the end of the day, one of the mistakes I see way too many coaches make when I when I particularly at at the younger ages and stuff like that is not putting together or building up into the full field game and and not scrimmaging enough because it doesn't matter how well you can execute you know, a three on two if you don't recognize a three on two as it occurs in riding, clearing, offense, defense. You know what I mean? Like you you have to know, you know, because when you do a drill, they start three on two and they know the drill is three on two. But when when they occur in games, they occur spontaneously and all over the field and and fluidly within, you know, different things. And it can happen because a guy fell down. It can happen because a pass skips a guy. It can happen because of of all kinds of reasons. And and and they have to know what they're in, right? And and so so, you know, we try really hard to to make sure that everything that we do, by the end of practice, we've circled back to doing it as a full field thing. So that so that the recognition then the the the knowledge that they did and the practices and habits that they formed and the and all of that, the awareness that they have of how to execute something and all of that, the communication, that all happens then. within a full field concept and within a you know within the the the what's going on. And and then we try as we do that to pay particular attention to how good are we at it, right? I mean, are are we or what and what part of this are we really good at? And how does that match the personnel that we have right now? Now it doesn't matter what I know. It matters what our players know and can do. And and if those things don't match up, then then we're just not as good as we could be, right? So so I have to be willing and our coaches have to be willing every year to say, all right, we're, you know, hey, when you got the Kavanaugh's and you've got athletic two way middies, you should be riding the piss out of people, right? I mean, that's that's that's what you should be doing. That's that's what your talent is telling you to, you know, to do. We don't have those guys right now. And and whether we have enough of those two way middies, those athletic two way middies in the middle of the field. I don't know. Well, we're gonna have to find that out in the course of the next three or four months before we go into the season and decide, are we gonna ride the same way we rode w when when, you know, four years ago when when we were as good as anybody in the country at doing that stuff? And and even without 10 manning, we were we were creating turnovers, buying time on the clock, doing, you know. creating difficulty for the other team. They had to really work at clearing the ball. They had to substitute from the defensive or from the offensive end because they they couldn't afford to trend to do that from the defensive end and and and leave themselves possibly a guy short. So there's all kinds of impacts that you're looking for out of that too. And you gotta say, okay, what what are we capable of doing? What's our group capable of doing? And then and then how do we how do we make the decisions so that we tell our guys the decisions we're we're trying to make. Here's they're not the same every year. They're not they're not the same Even game to game sometimes. Jamie Munro: You know, the of the phases of the game, the game naturally goes from offense to transition defense to defense to transition offense back to offense, with the transition being riding, maybe it's riding clear, maybe it's transition offense defense. How much do you in the subbing that goes along? Right. Yeah, Kevin Corrigan: And and substituting and yeah and and and that's a big part of it. Yeah. Jamie Munro: exactly. How much are you thinking about trying to get the the actual transition from offense to defense and defense to offense built into your practices. Meaning how often do you play stuff out versus work on the with a one phase at a Kevin Corrigan: No, Jamie Munro: time? Kevin Corrigan: every day. That's what I'm saying. We you know, that's to me, if you don't do that, you're leaving a gap in between the actual game and how it's gonna be played and what you spent your time working on and teaching. And it so so to me it doesn't make sense to not do one without the other. You you know, you you have to play it out in my mind, on on a pretty much daily basis, you know, to to get to the to the backside of it. So we'll you know, we'll do, you know smaller things, we'll do some, you know, things with with more constraints and and limitations and everything else to to isolate something, but then we have to play it out so that they when that way when we're coaching, we're concentrating on that. So especially in the fall here, Jamie, where we got a lot of new guys and, you know, you got a quarter of your team is is freshmen and don't know how you do things and everything else. You really have to take that time. And then you have to see and and and you can't try to do ten things in a day, you know, because you you gotta say, hey, we're gonna we're gonna these are the three things we're gonna do today, and we're gonna concentrate on those things through the three things all the way through the end of practice when we scrimmage. And and when we scrimmage, we're it's not that we're gonna ignore other things we're completely, but we're really gonna be concentrating on the three things that we were working on today, those decisions, and that we're gonna that's that's gonna be the basis on which at the end of practice we're gonna judge. How well did we do today? How well was how well how well executed was our practice, both from a coaching standpoint and from a from a playing standpoint. So immediately after practice in the huddle, we may have been terrible at something that day, but it's not something we we were working on. It's not something we've gotten to yet or something like that. So it's like we hey, we're not good at that. We'll get to that. We did a great job today on the thing we were trying to do. When we were trying to do that man and a half you know, pressure to to force the ball to move in our ride today. We were really good at that. And that saved us five steps going the other direction. And those five steps are gonna matter at some point, you know. And and so that's that's a great job. We that, you know, mission accomplished on the day. You know what I mean? Even though we Jamie Munro: Yeah, totally. Kevin Corrigan: may have given up, you know, something else. You know, our slow break defense or something at the other end might not have been good. Like we'll we'll get to that. We'll we'll talk about that later. Right now, this is what we were trying to do and we did it well and that was and that was that's good progress. Jamie Munro: What are some constraints you might use in a full field scrimmage to get various looks? I'm sure you have a million of them, but to get various looks of the things you're trying to do, whether it's different coverages out of the attack or midfield or different, you know, constraints of making them do an overpass or, you know, getting the defense to clear it faster or something along those lines. Kevin Corrigan: Yeah, I mean, you know, it's it's it's really just in terms of when they're w if we're riding, you know, saying, okay, we're gonna allow the ball to go here, where normally we wouldn't, right? But we're gonna learn how to adjust when that happens because it's gonna happen, yeah, whether we want it to or not. We can't we can't completely deny it. So we're gonna we're gonna learn how to react when the ball goes there. So let the ball go there and then and then we have to react to that. But we can't we can't play from the beginning like we know the ball's gonna get there. We just gotta you know, I mean, it's it's this guy's gonna get open. or or we you know, we say, Okay, the the goalie's not gonna be able to get the ball out right away and he's gonna have to go out the back to to to escape pressure and and then and then play it from there. Or, you know, you can there are a million different things that you can do, you know, or or the you know, the one guy on the on the clearing team, he turns his back and runs to the box. And so basically you're You know, you're six on six for about three or four seconds here because that guy is not doing what he's supposed to do, which is run to the box but still know what's going on on the field, still still be an active player where he can make himself make the defense or the riding team account for him. so different things like that that you can just kind of add in. But again, I I I I don't wanna I don't wanna break those things down too much because I I because it has to happen in all the Jamie Munro: Naturally. Yeah. Kevin Corrigan: ways that it happens in a game, right? And you you you d you so you gotta careful how much you manipulate side especially in the full field stuff. just but but Jamie Munro: Right. Well, remember you making me as a head as a young head coach pay for a a third defenseman subbing out when you jumped us three down a few times over the years. And but you could probably like you know use a constraint that's just says like, hey, I want you as a third guy to run out and you actually just have to run out. And we are not gonna do this in the game. You're not going to just run out. But but Kevin Corrigan: Right. Right. Jamie Munro: if you run out now, all of a sudden your players can recognize an opportunity. to jump somebody three down and be able to actually cause a turnover. Kevin Corrigan: I that's exactly what I'm talking about. That guy runs to the box without looking. He doesn't he nobody has to account for him because he's not he can't catch the ball. He's not looking at the ball. He doesn't know the so the goalie can't throw to him because it doesn't matter if he's open or not. So now we can okay, we can all press down, you know. So yeah, yeah, those are those are the things that you do and and you learn, okay, so that if you do that all the time, it sometimes you go into a game saying, Hey, this is how they they they they they like to get two guys off right away. We can We have an opportunity to to if we if we're close enough to get pressure to jump down and commit to that. But again, Jamie Munro: Mm-hmm. Kevin Corrigan: in order to do that, you have to have a team that you've already determined. Our MIDI's are smart enough and athletic enough. And it and and if you do that, it's not gonna always work. So they're gonna get trapped at the other end. Are they good enough to get trapped at the other end? Or do we need Jamie Munro: Mm-hmm. Kevin Corrigan: to say, Hey, they're subbing two guys off? Great. We can get two guys off with them and and and now we're you know, and now we'll take our chances in a in a different kind of ride, a a more delayed, you know, kind of ride, right? Or or can we jump right away because we got middies and attackmen who can do that. That's that's coaching your team year to year, right? That's that's that's that's just paying attention. That's that's the the awareness that we gotta have, right? To to do that. And and you wanna be able to do that within a game sometimes. You're like, hey, they're they're not doing this. We can do this. We can, we can and we've practiced it. It's not, you know, you know Jamie Munro: Right. That's what it's all about. Adjustments. Yeah. Kevin Corrigan: To me, yeah. Yeah, to me the thing, the trick is to have prepared your team for as many different things, you know, because you're not if you're over there drawing shit up on the sidelines or on the in the in the dirt that they've never seen before during a game, you're you're asking an awful lot of guys to to go out there and execute something like that. So you're more being in you know those moments are more about reminding them, hey, this is this is that action we've worked on. We're gonna pair this action and that action, which we may have never done, but we've done both actions enough that we can we can pair these two things right now because that's gonna cause them a problem, you know. And and and like I said, you know, sometimes that's subbing with them, sometimes that's going the other way. They're subbing, we're gonna we're going down, right? And but we've we've done all that enough and we know our team well enough to know if we can do it or not. Jamie Munro: I would say like one of the b the biggest things I learned from this entire ecological dynamics constraints led approach is just ramping up variability. Kevin Corrigan: All words all words that are that are really impressive. I I you know e ecological dynamics, Jamie Munro: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I know. Kevin Corrigan: I'm not I'm not exactly sure what it means, but I think I know. Jamie Munro: Yeah. Well, I recommend you read the book called Transforming Basketball. It'd be worth it. We've talked about that. You should read that book. You need to read Kevin Corrigan: Okay. No, I'd like to. I yeah. Jamie Munro: it. It every coach should read it. it it's it it does sound like big words, but it's not trying to be impressive. It's just what it's called. It's the skill acquisition theory that explains human movement. But one of the most imp important premises of the whole thing is variability. And you talk about it all the time. And I remember on the riding and clearing topic being at one of your practices indoors when we were doing our R V trip back in twenty nineteen. and you were doing a riding and clearing. It was like a a three on three, three attack, three D and a goalie. and you were working on and there you were basically working on clearing it in that situation, and what I've what I was impressed with, and you mentioned to me how intentional you were about this, but you you got the attack, you made sure the attack didn't ride the same way every time. you would have like sometimes one guy had to take away the middle defender and then sometimes you might windshield wipe and get two across and other times the guy on the middle defender would get to the overpass and one of those other two guys would get to the middle guy. And and it it stuck with me at the time as to how smart it was to basically allow your you know three versus four to occur in in and make sure it was happening in lots of different ways, not just one or not one at a time. It was it was very quite variable. And and really that's what you've been talking about the whole this this whole time is preparing your team for variability. And in any case, it's it it all makes more sense to me now after having like read about this stuff. one concept that you use a lot that I I always have a hard time explaining to people is the roll up concept in your I've made you explain it to me. I remember having dinner with you one time and you we were at some Italian place and there was crayons and white paper on the table and I really needed to take that piece of paper with me. but I but I couldn't. but do you mind explaining that? Kevin Corrigan: I mean it and it's the simplest way to explain it is instead of trying to get the midfielder that's farthest from the box to the box, you get the attackman who's closest to the box to sub off and have that midfielder just roll up and become an attackman. Right? And and so you're saving yourself, you know, 40 yards. because fifty yards because that guy's not trying to get across the field and get off the field. He's just becoming an attackman and somebody who's closer gets off. And and if you learn how to do it, you can do it without, you know, yeah it it matters where the ball is and how much ball pressure there is and and and things of that nature, as to when you do it, but if you if you do it correctly, you save yourself a lot of yards. And and you know, in in in riding it's it's you know, the Listen, if you're not doing some creative stuff like that, if you're not if you're not learning how to how to, you know, do the things that the the four on three part of it in different ways and and and with different pressures and everything else, then it just becomes rote and and and the team can clear the ball against you and they don't have to waste anything. They don't have to waste time, they don't have to waste personnel, they don't have to waste you know kind of the even the anxiety of getting the clock, you know, like Listen, we tell our guys all the time, if we can make them clear the ball and take eighteen seconds to do it, it it it affects everything in the game. That they that that means they have to leave their defensive middies on there to do it. Now when they clear it, they have to get those guys off and get their offensive guys on. It takes away transition because there's very little transition and at the at the eighteen second mark, you know, and and you know, sixty-two second mark. it it it It buys clock for us, you know, on the defensive end. There are guys are playing less defense now than than you know, than you might normally say. Well, once the ball's in their hands, you're playing defense. Well, but are you really are you really playing, you know, defense until they have all their six per people on the field? it it al it allows you to to it it's something people have to prepare for, right? I mean they they they have to spend their practice time the week before. working to make sure that they can clear the ball against against you because you can't afford to give away those possessions. So even though I think a lot of times, like we say to our guys, look, I don't I don't care at the end of the day. I'm not going to look at how many times they cleared the ball, it what percentage of the time they cleared the ball to know whether we were successful riding or not. There are a lot of other things that can occur besides a turnover that are very positive for us in the play of the game. And and even positive for us in terms of what that team had to do to get ready to play us, right? I one one of my things is I always want our team to be as hard to play against as as as they can be, right? I don't want I don't want people to to think like this is an easy team to prepare for. You just do this and and it and and consistently, if you can do that consistently, they're easy to play against. I don't want that to be a a thing. And so creating that variability, it can be a a positive thing even when it doesn't necessarily translate analytically to saying, well, here's Jamie Munro: Right. Kevin Corrigan: you know, here's the here's the percentage of times they cleared. They still cleared the ball eighty three percent of the time. Why why do you consider it a good clearing day? Well, because they didn't get the ball over in in less than fifteen seconds, but about five times. You know, we made them work every single time. We made them, you know, have to settle down and clear the ball and and do all that, took away transition. You know, all those things. That's a good day. Jamie Munro: And probably took a lot of good shots and not a lot of bad shots. Kevin Corrigan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 'Cause bad shots lead to breakouts and and yeah, no question. Yeah, so it Jamie Munro: I need Kevin Corrigan: yeah, it goes all the way back to that for sure. It starts it starts at the offense. You know, you can't Jamie Munro: Yeah. No doubt. Kevin Corrigan: have bad turnovers and you can't have and you c you know, you can't have you know, even even managing the end of the clock offensively. Like what are you doing? Are you are you going to the goal in those last five seconds? You know, I don't care if a guy goes to a goal and doesn't get there in the last five seconds, but I care if he feeds the crease. Especially if he feeds a crease from behind and the ball goes upfield and the clock's Jamie Munro: Yeah. Kevin Corrigan: ending and now that, you know, I mean that that that turns into a bad riding situation. So so there's there's different ways even Jamie Munro: Or a bad shot. Kevin Corrigan: to attack that last five seconds of of your offensive possession based on what you're trying to do. Cause I don't like dumping Jamie Munro: Totally. Or if a goalie catches it. Kevin Corrigan: the ball in the corner either, unless you have to. Jamie Munro: Yeah. I remember when the shot clock was under consideration and coaches were like, I mean, do we really want to be dumping the ball in the corner? They're like, No, I don't really want to, but I'd rather probably have that than like five minutes of spinning the ball around. Kevin Corrigan: Man. I I gotta be honest with you, Jamie. I didn't even realize until it was in how much I had grown to hate the game. Jamie Munro: Yeah. Kevin Corrigan: I really had. I mean, it was it was a miserable game to coach. It really was because and Jamie Munro: And watch. Kevin Corrigan: and and there's so much pressure on the officials to call things that that were such judgment calls and and and and that you were asking them to, hey, come on, you know this coach. You know what they're doing. They do this every game. And and he's like, Coach, how am I supposed to know what's in the guy's head? You know? And you're like, Well, on the one hand, you're right. On the other hand, it's kind of silly to say to act like you don't know what they're doing when they miss the goal by eight yards and you called a shot, you know, and and and so I mean it was there were so many silly things that we were doing in our game. And I really had grown to dislike what the game that I love more than any other, you know. I it it it was a terrible time in our game, in my opinion. Jamie Munro: It was. And it was all it meant for me as a as watching was fast forward button endlessly until there was some action. Kevin Corrigan: Yeah. yeah. Jamie Munro: Yeah. Yeah, it's much better. all right, switching gears. I want to talk a little about a little bit about recruiting. and and the topic on recruiting, I would really like to hear your opinion on is how do you evaluate IQ in players? And if you could sort of Talk about it defensively and offensively and maybe even, you know, in the goal. I'm not sure if you think about it that way, but certainly offensively and defensively, we know that we need a certain baseline of athleticism and stuff. but but the IQ is what wins you games or loses you games. so what are your thoughts on Kevin Corrigan: Yeah, no, I mean I it's it's it's so hard to say exactly. It's not like you Jamie Munro: Yeah. Kevin Corrigan: I mean, it's it's a feel that you have, a sense that you have. I mean, if you you know, I mean a guy the w the way a guy it's almost easier to say what's what's not IQ, right? If a guy is Jamie Munro: Yeah, to that. Kevin Corrigan: continually making the same mistake, you know, then like I don't have a guy I don't there's no one mistake a guy can make that I go, bad IQ, right? Because You know, sometimes you challenge a double team. Sometimes you you force a skip, right? If you're if you're playing the game and and everything, you don't make a hundred percent of those decisions correctly. And I don't mind a guy challenging the double team in in the right circumstance. I don't mind a guy, you know, skipping the ball and getting it getting a knocked down by the defense, you know. But if he does it repeatedly, then you're like, well, he's just not he's not playing with an awareness of of what's going on. He's, you know, he's he's getting himself in the same problem time after time, then then he doesn't have a great IQ for the game, right? the the the the the biggest thing that's hard to judge, and it this I find I find this hard to judge until a guy's like on our field and I see him every day with other guys, Jamie Munro: Yeah. Yeah. Kevin Corrigan: is to me the highest IQ guys are the guys that can make their plays within the game, but but everything they do makes everybody around them better. Right. And and it it's not and and it it you know, you go back to to you know, Pat Kavanaugh as a high school player who there was nobody, there was no top twenty teams beating down the door for Pat Kavanaugh. And that's because he just couldn't make so many different plays physically, right? But man, that dude found a way to score all the time. He never got in anybody else's way. He always knew when to catch the ball and and try to do something with it or when to catch the ball and just move it on. And I was always impressed with that when Pat was here. that how many times the ball would go through him Jamie Munro: Yeah. Kevin Corrigan: and just it would in and out, in and out. And it was like he just knew the ball needed to move right then. It just you we needed, you know, the ball needed to move for something better to happen for our offense. Even though I might be able to do something against my guy, that's not what the That's not what our team needs right now. The ball needs to move and we need to, you know, do things and and and so I I have a hard time w with what you're saying. Once a guy's here, I can evaluate their IQ and say, This is a guy we need. This is a and and that's why, you know, I sometimes I know I our players sometimes don't understand why I'm playing this guy over that guy. And it's like, because this guy keeps things going. This, you know, call him a a Grease guy or or whatever, you know, this guy, the offense runs better. You know, Max Businkill last year was on our second midfield all year long. He scored five goals all year and and and all of his all five goals were in the two games that we played against Syracuse. So, you know, a lot of guys I'm sure were on our bench going, Sh, I can do what Max is doing out there. Except that Max was a great pick setter. Max knew when to dodge and when to move the ball. Max was, you know Max was always balancing the field, Ma you know, to be the outlet when somebody needed it. Max was always, you know, getting in the hole to make sure it was, you know, he was doing all these other things that made us better, that made that made the people around him better that didn't necessarily translate into him scoring goals. And now he he had opportunities to score goals and we would and he would have loved to have scored more of them. but he was still valuable to us, you know. And and and he it was his IQ that made him so valuable, right? His his play in the two man game, you know, and and and how he, you know, knew how to to manipulate things in that. And and so, yeah, so I you know, I'm sorry for the long answer, but I'm basically Jamie Munro: No, it's good. Kevin Corrigan: saying like I that that's the hardest thing you have to judge when you especially Jamie Munro: It is. Kevin Corrigan: when you're watching these kids and you you go to watch and and you know, how much do you really see them play? How much you they're if their team has the ball half the time and if they're a midfielder, they're only in for, you know, half of those at best. So, you know, you go to watch a shortened game where the kid plays a quarter of the time and you're supposed to judge his IQ, right? And it's it's a really hard thing to do sometimes. Jamie Munro: It really is. And the other part of it Kevin Corrigan: Right. What what do you what do you find? Is it do you have any any effective, you know, shortcuts, if you will, on that or or or you know, how do how do you try to judge that when you're when you're watching kids? Because I know you evaluate a ton of kids. Jamie Munro: Yeah. Well, I remember when I was I remember one of the things when I when I was coaching Division I lacrosse that I remember s to this day sort of thinking is I would what be watching these club games and generally they were just kind of what you were talking about about the college game. They're just kind of boring. They're just like the same thing over and over and over. And one of the things I literally just started looking for was just something interesting. Kevin Corrigan: Yeah. Jamie Munro: Partly just because It was getting boring to not look for that. and partly because, you know, something interesting might be something deceptive. It might be like just moving the ball really quickly. It might be just like a something different, you know. I mean, I think like in and if I watch like a highlight video, you know, I usually kind of like, you know, I know that everyone's highlight video should look pretty good, but if it's kind of the same finish every single time or the same thing, you know, it it doesn't mean that the athlete couldn't do more. but that that variability in their game, can they dodge in different ways? deception to me is one of the biggest sort of canary in the coal mine, I'd say, for IQ. not just the the guy who has it, you know, an one amazing fake he uses a lot that can but but more like recognizing an opportunity. Kevin Corrigan: A little hesitation, a little a little look off, Jamie Munro: Something subtle. Kevin Corrigan: a little yeah, all these little things that that ho that freeze the defense that you and give you a Jamie Munro: Making Yeah. Because Kevin Corrigan: an extra beat to make a decision, right? To to make the right decision. Yeah. Jamie Munro: Exactly, you know, just a just a just even just like really drawing and dumping in a way this very thoughtful where they like don't let a guy hedge and they really make Kevin Corrigan: Yeah. Jamie Munro: him step to you. I mean pick setting for sure, but pick setting's tough because, you know, if if they've never really been taught how to read a pick and what what pick setting is like really all about, it's kind of hard to judge. And that's the the hardest part that you just, you know, that you mentioned earlier is you don't really know until that you're on campus because really what IQ is can they keep learning? Kevin Corrigan: Yeah, that's exactly right. Can they can they adapt? Yeah. Jamie Munro: Can they keep getting better? That's the key. Yeah. and I remember asking you one time a long time ago, how do you, how do you, you know, if you have a def if you see a defenseman that, you know, has never been coached and he's picking up a fast break at like 20 yards, you know, is that terrible IQ or is that bad coaching? And you said something like, it's a, I forget exactly what you said, but it was something like it's a Differentiation without a difference or something like that. I can't remember what the quote was, but but a Kevin Corrigan: Yeah. Distinction distinction without a difference. Jamie Munro: distinction without a difference. Yeah. And it's it's kind of true, except for the fact that, like, maybe that kid, you know, ends up being one of the smartest guys on your roster, and he's just like literally, maybe he was told to pick it up at 20, or he just never. And it's it is so hard to judge that stuff. vision in general, you know, just seeing, you know, seeing if if people are moving the ball and understanding that. part of the game. But again, like, you know, it's it's it's really, it's really, it is pretty hard, hard to judge. Communication beyond I'm hot, you know, is is is a is is another one along with deception. It sort of means you're reading a game and you're actually trying to make something happen in the context of the other side of the ball. not just Kevin Corrigan: know, we w Will Gallagher is a probably our not probably with unquestionably our least athletic defenseman of a a great athletic group, you know, with Donovan and and Schwitzenberg and Light last year, and then there there's there's Will Gallagher. And every now and then Will Gallagher gets way out of position. And it's because he's so smart. He's anticipating, he's seeing, he's reading, and then every now and then Somebody makes a really, really good offensive play that makes him look silly because he's two steps the wrong way. But Jamie Munro: Yeah. Yeah. Kevin Corrigan: most of the time he's two steps to where he should be, you know what I mean, or an extra step towards where he should be. Anticipating knowing that he doesn't have the speed to catch up to it, he's gonna he's gonna have to be a little bit in front of it, right? And and so it's it's funny to watch a guy like that, you know, day to day and and and you see some things he's doing that are just really smart, really clever things. But every now and then he gets burned on it because the offense makes a better play, you know, but that's you know, you you're forcing if nothing else, you're forcing the offense to make the the next h higher level play and and not letting them get away with making a s a simple play, you know. Jamie Munro: Totally. And and if anticipation is a trait of, you know, the smartest, best defenders, then they're gonna end up biting on some deception, which would then Kevin Corrigan: Yeah. Jamie Munro: be the trait of the best, smartest offensive players. And that's kinda how it goes back and forth. They're looking for an opportunity and you're looking for them, looking for the opportunity and you know, trying to use that against them as much as you can. Kevin Corrigan: Yep. Jamie Munro: and I think those are some of the things. I mean, def defensive Players just learning how to guard more than one person at a time. You know, if you can, if you can consistently see somebody, and again, you could totally watch a kid playing club and he's not doing that at all because he's like worried about his matchup because that's what he's been told to do. Whereas that kid may come in and not be able to figure out how to guard more than one person at a time ever, or maybe he becomes one of your best guys at it. But in the case of that defenseman you were just talking about, in the recruiting process, could you tell were there traits that you could notice out of him. Kevin Corrigan: No, you you knew you could tell he was very smart and you could tell he he communicated really well because he was smart. He was he was in the middle of the communication. But, you know, we don't we don't run a defense where anybody's supposed to be directing the defense, right? The goalie or anybody else. Everybody's got a role. And if everybody doesn't play a role within that, you know, there's there's a you can't make up for it with somebody doing that for him. You can help a little bit, but Generally, you need everybody to play their role within the communication and that kind of thing. But a guy like that who does it exceedingly well encourages the people around them. They, they, you know, they speak up a little more. They get they gain confidence in what they're doing and everything, and they and they see it modeled, they know, they know how to do it better. So it does have a role. But we don't ask that one guy to orchestrate what other people are doing. Although at times, you know, helping somebody recognize they're too far out or they're, you know, Jamie Munro: Yeah. Kevin Corrigan: What's what's going on, you know, that's next level. Jamie Munro: One of my favorite all time players of yours was who I got to know decently well over the years is Eddie Glaisner. Kevin Corrigan: Yeah. Jamie Munro: and man, what what a pro he was at recognizing and then communicating to everybody. and you you know, you you may say, I don't need one person directing all the traffic, because everybody has to be a part of that. But man, when somebody like that can help, it makes a pretty big difference. Kevin Corrigan: Yeah. Well and you and you saw him do it much more in the pros. You Jamie Munro: Yeah. Kevin Corrigan: you you know, you really saw him do it where where he it was not practicing five days a week with the same guys, you know, and they were all on the same page and and maybe the communication was a little more democratic. It was it was, you know, it was a a si situation where he knew and he wasn't gonna be quiet about it because they they didn't have time to work all this out over the course of a week of practice and And so you you really saw him and exercising his IQ there and and and and vocalizing everything he was seeing. Jamie Munro: What are your thoughts on on evalu you know, to try to look at a a a defender that's amazing at double teams? I don't mean just sliding to the obvious I mean that's important too, slide decisions are key, but but sneaking up on people and anticipating that they've lost sight of you, and being able to I mean that you you know, that might be the example you're giving me where where that guy sometimes gets burned because he he he's anticipating contact and a rollback and he's gonna he's gonna get all over somebody. but I kinda look at that as like, you know, a really interesting way to sort of see how smart somebody is. but then again yeah. Kevin Corrigan: It's gotta fit it it's gotta fit your scheme, right? And and some people are more aggressive, you know, when a guy you know, when there's two man at X, a lot of times that guy will come off that two man and the and the the guy who was on the picker will chase it, you know, knowing that that guy has very little, you know, visibility of him. But if the offense communicates, he could get burned on it, right? And and and and that kind of thing. so for us, we don't do a lot of that, right? just intentionally. We want that guy. You get we need you on the backside now, getting the backside pipe and and doing another roll. We don't, you know, we're gonna give up a certain number of turnovers that we could create because we're pretty athletic and and pretty smart and we could do that. But the one we do want is when that guy, you know, gets his foot in the ground and and and rolls or splits back into the middle of the field, like like you got to go right Jamie Munro: Yeah. That way. Kevin Corrigan: now. You got to go while it's it it it basically has to be a double team because if you wait for that guy to come out of that He's just gonna dodge you one on one just like in a in a worse situation than he just took off the other guy, right? So so you have to get there to make it almost a double team or or else you're late and and and it's way less effective. So so for us, we try to, you know, separate and identify those those kinds of things, you know, but and and d you know, so and and again certain times you can manipulate it in how where where and how and what the timing of certain picks are, certain two man You know, we can we can jump that and get a double out of that, but we're not gonna do that if it's five yards, you know, closer. We're not gonna do that if it's five yards closer to the Z line in the middle of the field or whatever, you know, me y you got again our rules about about how to do it. But but there are even even that being said, some guys do that really well and some guys don't. Some guys don't don't they don't see it, they don't anticipate as well and they don't recognize it when it comes around. Jamie Munro: Totally. Would you say that your ability to perceive those opportunities on both sides of the ball, to to be you know, from an IQ perspective is pretty much what gets you on the field or holds you back from getting on the field at your level? Kevin Corrigan: It's a lot of it. I mean it it really is. I mean if you wanna play, you have to you have to do something that makes us say, not he's better than him, so we're gonna play him instead of him, but this guy's really good at this and we need to look for opportunities to play. him. And so if you're saying, you know, the IQ in the two man game, is super important. Well, certain teams run nothing but two man game. and you're, you know, like, okay, that guy needs to get more time in that game. You know, he needs a he's a better option Jamie Munro: Exactly. Kevin Corrigan: for us in that game than than somebody else. He's going to get more minutes in that game than he's going to get against a big downhill dodging team where he can't, hang with certain guys this in the same way, right? And so yeah, that I mean, I I think that's that's a way, you know, there's a lot of different ways to get yourself on the field, but that's certainly a way to do it, is to be great in those things, offensively Jamie Munro: Yeah. Kevin Corrigan: or defensively, right? Jamie Munro: I was I've been thinking a lot lately about that an offensive player, and the same thing for the defense, but use the offense as an example, you should be trying to help your team score or create an advantage in every second of a possession. Regardless of where you are, whether you have the ball, whether you're next to the ball, whether you're picking, whether you're backside, whether you're anticipating to be an outlet. And I think that's really what IQ is on both sides of the ball. And the defense obviously during every second of a possession you have to be trying to help not give up a great shot. And that Kevin Corrigan: Be be impactful. Be impactful in some way. Yeah. And and that goes back Jamie Munro: Yeah. And and and these Kevin Corrigan: to what I said earlier about, you know, if you want to be a team that's hard to play against, have six offensive guys who are playing that way, right? And Jamie Munro: Yeah, that's it. Yeah. Kevin Corrigan: and now you're hard to play against because nobody out there can take a break at any point, on or off ball. You know, if if you if you want yeah, same thing defensively, right? If you want to be a team that's hard to play against, every guy's in every play in in some way. He's he's he's taking something away. Jamie Munro: Hey, I sent you a blog right before this podcast. Did you get a chance to look at it real quick or no? Kevin Corrigan: No, I really didn't, but tell me what it's about. Jamie Munro: I'm gonna try. I've read I've read it twice. I'm gonna try to try to talk about it. But it was it was from the transforming basketball guys. and it was basically punishing a coverage versus preventing a coverage, and I think it's a really interesting concept that I want to give more thought to, and I thought it'd be a fun last topic here. But punishing coverage is you recognize what the coverage is. Let's say this this blog was in the context of of pick and roll, and so. Kevin Corrigan: All right, so let's so let's say this the stack and whack defense of the pick and roll. And and you're Jamie Munro: Okay. Kevin Corrigan: you know, you're playing against a team that likes to get up high on that pick and give you a whack and and s and give the other guy time to get around or over or through the pick so that you don't have to change matchups. So so you're saying coming up with Jamie Munro: Right. Kevin Corrigan: an offensive concept that says we're gonna punish that that behavior by the defense, right? Jamie Munro: Yes. Or we're being almost held hostage by this defense that we're struggling against. How can we prevent the coverage? Which Kevin Corrigan: Right. So so slips. Go up there, set the pick and then slip real quick beforehand. Now now the guy's kinda caught up high on the thing and it's hard to play the slip and and and you know, so you can prevent it that way or you can punish it by letting that guy do that and and and then, you know, running some nations or something where you you know, when when that guy steps out the stack and whack, you you kick the ball forward and and let the the the the pick or slip off into, you know, into into a space, right? Or something. So Jamie Munro: Yeah. Kevin Corrigan: that's that's that's punishing it versus preventing it by saying, we're gonna slip the pick and and we're never gonna really set the pick. But that guy's gonna be prepared for us to set the pick. So he's gonna be out of position for the slip. Jamie Munro: Yeah. Might be debatable whether that's punishing or preventing. But but but but that's the idea behind it. Kevin Corrigan: Mm-hmm. Jamie Munro: Debatable because a slip might be a good way to punish a coverage. because especially with the nation's concept behind it, you know, when you just I've seen you guys punish coverage many times against stack and whack. You guys slip that a lot and it ends up being a throwback or I don't see you guys do a ton of nations, but you do a lot of throwbacks on stack and wax. A another Kevin Corrigan: Yeah, yeah. Jamie Munro: way to but maybe a way to prevent that coverage would be, you know, some kind of like a ram screen or something where you set an off ball pick for somebody and they can get there so open that you've eliminated the shorty's ability to even be in position to use that coverage. and you might be like, hey, we can Kevin Corrigan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that the Jamie Munro: slip on these guys all day, or we're really struggling to get open on this. how can we do some Kevin Corrigan: We g we gotta get separation between our picker and his man. Yeah. We can't let his guy be be right there. So yeah, that off ball pick that frees up that guy to to be a picker. Yeah. Jamie Munro: Yeah, and I've been trying to think of that in in in the context of lots of different things. I mean, if you read through that blog, you'll just it'll it'll show you his lots of video clips of different it was it was it was very similar to what you the example you gave actually it was kind of like pressure versus pressure versus pick and roll, in which they would do, you know, he had like all these different solutions of things he might do to punish the coverage, but then here are things that you can do to prevent it. And he also said you generally prevent a coverage versus pressure more so than you're going to prevent it versus a softer coverage. you can. And he gave a couple of examples, but generally, you know, it's the pressure that you that you can get stuck trying Kevin Corrigan: Yeah. Jamie Munro: to punish and it's just not working and you might find other ways to do it. his get concept of Of a get in basketball is where you throw it to somebody and then sprint over and go get it and they can either give it to you or they can put the ball on the floor and go to the basket. And I was thinking about that actually in specifically in terms of, you know, the the safety coverage, where like you're playing big little behind, but the midi doesn't go behind. Kevin Corrigan: Yeah. Jamie Munro: And it's probably being done, I don't know what percentage. Certain conferences, the big East conference has usually done that a lot, but But it's becoming a little bit more common, you know, because like, all right, well, why not just leave our slider in front of the net and and play, you know, instead of sliding and leaving it four on three in front, let's just slide and and leave it four on four in front. And if we have to get hung up, maybe we got hung up. so if you kept on trying to punish that coverage, you might, try to set better picks and really get two on you so that you can throw back and push for the other side as an example of punishing the coverage. But I was thinking about in the with the concept of gets how to prevent the coverage what if you just threw it to the MIDI in a hung situation? So you're saying back right and you throw it to the MIDI, and now you blast off like you're gonna either get it from him or backdoor, and all of a sudden you've got sort of a misdirection where he could give it to you or not, and now You've basically taken them kind of out of what they're what they're trying to do. And you might just turn it into a dodging opportunity where the shorty in front has got a really difficult approach because he doesn't know which way you're going. He doesn't know if you're gonna flip it to the guy, if that guy's backdooring. If he does backdoor, you can turn it into kind of like a up the hash type of seal on the on the thing. And and I was just thinking it was just really interesting to think about the defenses that you're going against and figuring out do we could we prevent their coverage altogether as as as another option. other than just trying to punish what we know can work if we do this against that. Kevin Corrigan: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's interesting. That's that's I mean I I the the hard part is again, making that something that you can do without completely redesigning what you're doing all the Jamie Munro: Right. Kevin Corrigan: time. You know what I mean? Because if it because if like, you know, if you if you're constantly doing that, you're constantly adjusting to what people are doing against you. you it becomes really hard to be good at anything. Yeah you become kind of a work in progress on on everything because you're constantly Jamie Munro: Yeah. Kevin Corrigan: changing what you're doing to it. You know what I mean? So making making something like that a a consistent part of what you do so that you can say, Hey, this is how we this is what we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna do this thing that we do all the time as opposed to Jamie Munro: Mm-hmm. Kevin Corrigan: let's try this today or let's Jamie Munro: Yeah. Kevin Corrigan: try this against this team. Jamie Munro: Well, I think that's I think that's right. And in and but I also think that's where it comes back to like creating enough variability within the principles that are going to be consistent. I mean, at the end of the day, you have to punish a coverage based on reading it, no matter what. And Kevin Corrigan: Yep. Right. Jamie Munro: you have to get great at that. and you're gonna have to get great at d playing against different coverages because people are gonna do some different things. and then all you're really talking about is maybe a different action that sort of takes them out of it, whether it's, you know, whatever it is. And I think I personally think, like I said, I I'd say the the concept of cranking up variability for me has been like the most impactful thing that's happened for me as I've been coaching and trying to develop players and Because I would always come back to the the drills that I loved that I thought were great and and they were for for the constraints we were using. But then what I sort of found is if if you can just you can get the same principles achieved in as many different ways as possible, similar to what you guys do with your writing game and everything else. I mean, I think this stuff happens naturally, but I think that being even more intentional about more variability will just allow your players To be more adaptable, which in the end of the day, adaptable players that are that are reading the game are gonna be the best players. so Kevin Corrigan: Yeah. But I mean, but again, so I mean I'll I'll I'll talk about our defense because our defense is so simple, right? But it's simple because it's so hard to play good defense. and to be to to to confront all the variabilities that the offense can throw at you and everything else. So my my concept there is let's keep it as simple as we can so that we can adjust to as many different things as possible. as opposed to when we're trying to do all these different things. We're we're trying to get these double teams. We're trying to we're trying to find these double teams, chase these double teams, do all Jamie Munro: Mm. Kevin Corrigan: that. That adds one more layer of complexity. And then what about what we're doing on the inside or the backside? You can do that in a lot of different ways. What are you know, what's our slide scheme? You know, are are we keeping that consistent or are we changing whether they have one guy inside, two guys inside, nobody inside? you know, There's a there's a million ways to skin that cat, but for me it's like let's keep it as consistent as we possibly can in and and and that way we we get good at adjusting and the because it's the players again. It doesn't matter what I know. It matters what they know and it matters what they know in the moment on the field. And can they recognize it, analyze it and execute it on the fly Jamie Munro: Yeah. Kevin Corrigan: in the in that moment. If if any part of Jamie Munro: No no doubt. Kevin Corrigan: that is is slowed down by me, then then I'm not doing a very good job. Jamie Munro: When using pick defense as an example, Do you play picks in different ways or do you try to play them in one way? Kevin Corrigan: What do you think? You watch us play. Jamie Munro: I think that you guys have a preference to pressure get over a pick. If you run into it, we'll switch if we have to. but I've seen Notre Dame guys go under a pick when it's set far out. because why wouldn't you? Why give them that? I think that you guys don't look to double, but sometimes they run right into you. And so if you're going over a pick. You know, a MIDI can make that play and if especially if it's closer to the goal line. I think that you will have no issue switching if you have to. but generally it's not gonna be an earlier switch. It's gonna be a switch that occurs because you kinda ran into a pick. so I don't know, that would be that would Kevin Corrigan: Yeah. I mean you you pretty much just described everything that we're doing, but here's the thing. Those things Jamie Munro: Yeah. Kevin Corrigan: those decisions are all being made on the field. Those aren't those aren't decisions that we've manipulated and that we're hey, this time we're gonna do this and this time we're gonna do that. We're saying, hey, this is how we wanna this is where we wanna position. This is the communication we want, this is what we're gonna try Jamie Munro: Mm-hmm. Kevin Corrigan: to accomplish. But if we if we screw it up in any way, you know, then then then we've got to switch or whatever. It starts with the premise that we don't mind switching, right? 'Cause because we say, Hey, everybody's gonna get beat, you know, I mean, virtually just about everybody on the field at some point's gonna get beat. So we always have to be prepared for a guy to get beat, you know. And so we don't care if if the matchup is not the one we we didn't go into the game saying we want our short stick D Middy on their best attackman, but if that happens in the course of play, then that happens and and and we don't freak out about it. if he gets beat he gets beat. Jamie Munro: Yeah. And I think that's the biggest key is that the players are all reading what the opportunity is, you know, being presented to them, basically. And Kevin Corrigan: Yeah. Jamie Munro: and it's not like we're getting under everything, we're getting over everything, or you have to get over, you know, inside this line and under outside that line. It's more like if it's a better opportunity to take a shortcut under 'cause you can't get over and then you're gonna go under. And then and again, like if we have to switch, we'll switch. We don't care. and I I and I think that's You know, that's like that that's like actually amazing variability. It it it creates more variability in the way you're gonna play. And I and I always you know Kevin Corrigan: Yeah, you know, if if you if you see Jamie, a lot of times we we play older guys and it's not because of anything other than they've gotten better at making decisions and and you know, and they they recognize things better, they communicate better, they position themselves better and they and they make better decisions. and and so, you know, again, you know, like you said, smarter is better. You know, I mean yeah, there may be a freshman who shoots the ball harder or runs faster or does all that, but you know, as Lou Holst used to like to say, it is you know, about speed is if you make a bad decision, that just means you're farther away from where you wanted to be. because you're fast. So rather have a slower guy making great decisions than a faster guy, you know, whose decisions are a little more variable. Jamie Munro: Totally. Kev, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and talking lacrosse. I I actually really love this conversation. Kevin Corrigan: Always, brother. Appreciate it. Thanks for having me on. Jamie Munro: Good luck this fall. Good luck in twenty twenty seven. I can't believe it's twenty twenty seven season already, but I'll be checking in. Kevin Corrigan: I know. I can't wait to get started this fall. We haven't gotten on the field yet. There's you know, and and and I'm I'm chomping it to bit to see our freshmen out there and and to get started Jamie Munro: I got Kevin Corrigan: with everything this fall. So absolutely. Jamie Munro: It's like Christmas in September. All right, Casey. Great to see you, man. Thank you so much. Kevin Corrigan: Got it. Thanks, Jamie. Jamie speaking: Thanks for listening to the JM three lacrosse podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe, rate, and share with a teammate or coach who loves the game. We'll see you next time.