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How to Play the Role Life Gives You - Stoic Wisdom for Chaos with William C Spears · Hardiness with Dr Paul Taylor

0:09
Speaker 1: William C. Spears, Welcome to the podcast. Hey, thanks a lot, Paul,
0:14
Speaker 1: glad to be here, So may you.
0:16
Speaker 2: Have spent most of your professional life in the Tin
0:19
Speaker 2: Khan underneath the ocean. Tell our listeners what I mean
0:23
Speaker 2: by that.
0:24
Speaker 1: That's right, So I am. I'm an active active duty
0:28
Speaker 1: US Navy submarine officer. So uh. And while while I'm
0:33
Speaker 1: saying that, it's important that I say anything that I
0:35
Speaker 1: do say since I am actively serving in the military,
0:37
Speaker 1: it's important that I point out that anything I say
0:39
Speaker 1: is just my own opinion. Like if I don't say
0:42
Speaker 1: that at the beginning, I'll at some point render an
0:44
Speaker 1: opinion on like Scotch or jin and then that will
0:46
Speaker 1: be the Navy's official opinion. You know, That's not that's
0:50
Speaker 1: not what we're doing, because we all know the Navy
0:52
Speaker 1: drinks from you know. Well. But anyway, Yeah, really glad
0:59
Speaker 1: to be here. I've been in the Navy twenty five years.
1:01
Speaker 1: I listed in the Navy, you know, which is where
1:04
Speaker 1: you just join right out of primary school, and I
1:07
Speaker 1: managed to was lucky enough to be accepted for a
1:09
Speaker 1: commissioning program. I went to the US Naval Academy and
1:13
Speaker 1: got a degree in engineering and all that, and I've
1:15
Speaker 1: had a career in submarine since then. It's just been
1:17
Speaker 1: a really great career and I'm happy to keep doing it.
1:20
Speaker 2: And so me it is the process of becoming a
1:24
Speaker 2: submariner officer. Because I'm ex Royal Navy, some of my
1:28
Speaker 2: listeners will know you're a submarine warfare officer. I was
1:32
Speaker 2: an anti submarine warfare officer in helicopters, but the submariners
1:39
Speaker 2: and they were doing a recruitment drive when we were
1:41
Speaker 2: going through officer training for submariners, which was pretty.
1:45
Speaker 1: Cold, and I actually they sent us.
1:46
Speaker 2: I don't know if you ever got any of this
1:48
Speaker 2: sort of recruitment JOCT, but they showed us a video.
1:52
Speaker 2: I've left now so I can talk about this shit.
1:54
Speaker 2: They showed us a video of a British attack submarine
1:58
Speaker 2: upper Round Merman in northern Russia where the Russians were
2:04
Speaker 2: doing war games and the British submarine was in the
2:08
Speaker 2: middle of it had its periscope up and dine and
2:12
Speaker 2: was going around the bottom of holes and all sorts
2:15
Speaker 2: of crazy shit in the middle of war games. And
2:18
Speaker 2: that was to try and get people excited about Hey,
2:21
Speaker 2: here's some of the really cool shits that you can do.
2:24
Speaker 2: Did they have to do such a recruitment drive or
2:27
Speaker 2: were people very keen to get in submarines because they're
2:30
Speaker 2: crazy in the head.
2:31
Speaker 1: They usually have to push it, you know, because people
2:35
Speaker 1: aren't aren't usually you know, crawling out the windows to
2:38
Speaker 1: go get into a metal tube for a long period
2:41
Speaker 1: of time. But what really works well, particularly for the
2:48
Speaker 1: you know, officer candidates, is you take some underway and
2:52
Speaker 1: some people just really resonate with the culture that and
2:55
Speaker 1: it's kind of hard to communicate. You can't put you
2:57
Speaker 1: can't put a culture on a recruiting poster. You know.
3:00
Speaker 1: People come on board and they see like how the
3:02
Speaker 1: sailors interact with each other, and how the officers and
3:05
Speaker 1: enlisted sailors work together, and and and just and just
3:08
Speaker 1: the vibe is totally different than it might be on
3:10
Speaker 1: a surface ship. And some people just really really that's
3:13
Speaker 1: their jam, and that's that's kind of way it was
3:14
Speaker 1: for me, Like I really I was attracted to the culture.
3:17
Speaker 1: I still am, I really, you know, I'm working with
3:19
Speaker 1: the best people in the world. And just the way
3:21
Speaker 1: that we interact and that the tightness of the team
3:23
Speaker 1: is uh is absolutely what I want to be a
3:25
Speaker 1: part of and uh, and so that's that's why I
3:28
Speaker 1: like it.
3:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been on just a couple of submarines and
3:33
Speaker 2: not not for an extended period. But I do have
3:37
Speaker 2: a meet who was a navigator in submarines and he
3:42
Speaker 2: absolutely loved it. But it is a very very specific culture.
3:47
Speaker 2: I know in the British Navy that you had to
3:48
Speaker 2: go through pretty extensive psychological assessments because you're a diner,
3:54
Speaker 2: and particularly if they were on the nuclear SHUBs, you know,
3:57
Speaker 2: you could you could sail from port, pop done, and
4:01
Speaker 2: then not pop up again for four to six months.
4:04
Speaker 2: Write no contact with the outside board. This was This
4:06
Speaker 2: was back in the day. I think it's maybe changed
4:09
Speaker 2: slightly on this. You're on a big operation, but it
4:12
Speaker 2: takes a particular type of individual to be able to
4:17
Speaker 2: do that. And the close quarters in which you guys
4:20
Speaker 2: operate in give people a kind of a sense of
4:23
Speaker 2: what that's like.
4:26
Speaker 1: Well, you know, it is tight, there's no you know,
4:29
Speaker 1: like whenever I come on shore after I've been under
4:31
Speaker 1: way for a long time, I like to, you know,
4:33
Speaker 1: stick my arms out like this and then like spin
4:35
Speaker 1: around and say, look at what I'm doing. I'm spinning
4:38
Speaker 1: around with my arms out. I can do this. And so,
4:42
Speaker 1: you know, you try to get to a computer to
4:44
Speaker 1: work at and you have to pull it out of
4:46
Speaker 1: this wall and you have to climb over the clown
4:48
Speaker 1: that's sitting at the other computer to like get to
4:50
Speaker 1: the seat, and just stuff like that. It makes you
4:52
Speaker 1: grumble and complain, you know, but you stay so busy
4:56
Speaker 1: that you don't you don't have time to think about
4:57
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. The be underway for a long
5:01
Speaker 1: period of time that has its you know, it's almost
5:05
Speaker 1: like a time warp, like you know how when you
5:07
Speaker 1: wake up from from a dream and like you can
5:11
Speaker 1: remember it for a second, but then very very quickly,
5:13
Speaker 1: like the memory kind of just becomes a blur and
5:15
Speaker 1: you just kind of like you can't tell what was
5:17
Speaker 1: the beginning and what was then. That's kind of the
5:19
Speaker 1: way and underway on a submarine is like for me
5:22
Speaker 1: at least, is like very quickly like I can't you know,
5:25
Speaker 1: it's kind of a blur of what happened. I don't know,
5:28
Speaker 1: you know, and like now like did that happen and
5:32
Speaker 1: you know twenty nineteen or did that happen in like
5:34
Speaker 1: twenty twelve, and it's all like a blur.
5:36
Speaker 2: You know, Yeah, I'm now I left. I left the
5:41
Speaker 2: navy Jesus twenty old years ago, but that probably the
5:45
Speaker 2: last time I was on a submarine would have been
5:48
Speaker 2: close to thirty years ago. It was a small British
5:50
Speaker 2: attack submarine and there was hot bunking in the thing,
5:55
Speaker 2: so there was some people because there was just not
5:57
Speaker 2: much space and somebody some people would sleep onto the
5:59
Speaker 2: chappez tubes right, which was actually, I am told the
6:02
Speaker 2: best place to sleep in it, but particularly the raattings
6:06
Speaker 2: they would hot punk, which means that they would routee
6:10
Speaker 2: it for their entire duration under the water, six on,
6:13
Speaker 2: six off, So when you're not sleeping in your bed,
6:17
Speaker 2: somebody else is sleeping in your bed.
6:18
Speaker 1: It was a bad hot hot bunking is a thing
6:22
Speaker 1: that will will happen on our our attack submarines. The
6:25
Speaker 1: big missile submarines are big enough that you can have
6:29
Speaker 1: it for everyone to sleep, but on our attack submarines
6:31
Speaker 1: and they are nuclear power, their own nuclear powered for us, uh,
6:35
Speaker 1: the junior most guys will have to for a while.
6:39
Speaker 1: So it's like it's like another incentive to like get
6:42
Speaker 1: qualified and learn learn your station and be able to do,
6:45
Speaker 1: you know, sophisticated things, and then you achieve enough seniority
6:49
Speaker 1: that like, I get my own bunk now, and.
6:52
Speaker 2: They made they all saying shit, Rose dine Hill really
6:56
Speaker 2: does apply to the military.
7:00
Speaker 1: We are not here.
7:00
Speaker 2: Although I could talk to you a lot about submarines
7:03
Speaker 2: and tactics and anti submarine tactics and stuff like that.
7:07
Speaker 1: I think I think our listeners that their.
7:09
Speaker 2: Eyes would roll back and oh well, maybe some of
7:11
Speaker 2: them would be interested in it. But we're actually here
7:14
Speaker 2: to talk about stoicism, and because you've written a book
7:18
Speaker 2: Stoicism as a warrior philosophy, But before we get into
7:22
Speaker 2: it and the framing of stoicism around military context, because
7:25
Speaker 2: I think I think we can open it up quite
7:27
Speaker 2: a lot, right, But how did you first come to
7:31
Speaker 2: be interested in stoicism.
7:33
Speaker 1: I picked it up while I was at the Naval
7:35
Speaker 1: Academy that's that's in Annapolis, Maryland, and it's kind of
7:40
Speaker 1: it's always had a stoicism undercurrent to it. And like
7:44
Speaker 1: stoicism is popular in the military anyway, kind of everywhere,
7:48
Speaker 1: but it's particularly popular at the Naval Academy because there
7:53
Speaker 1: is a famous admiral who you know, he's a hero.
7:57
Speaker 1: He's kind of a you know, his statues there and everything.
8:00
Speaker 1: He's one of the one of the illustrious heroes there
8:03
Speaker 1: named ice. Admirald James Stockdale, one of my heroes, one
8:08
Speaker 1: of my heroes. Yeah, so I don't need to tell
8:10
Speaker 1: you who he is, so, you know.
8:12
Speaker 2: But tell tell our listeners because they may or may
8:16
Speaker 2: not have heard me talk about stock deal.
8:18
Speaker 1: So Stockdale was a he was a fighter pilot and
8:23
Speaker 1: an air group commander during the Vietnam War. And he
8:28
Speaker 1: was shot down early early in the action. He was
8:33
Speaker 1: and he you know, he was the commander of the
8:35
Speaker 1: air group. But just because he you know, he wanted
8:38
Speaker 1: to lead missions with his men. You know, he's flying
8:41
Speaker 1: these tactical missions too. And he was shot down early
8:44
Speaker 1: on and captured.
8:45
Speaker 2: And I think it was September ninth, nineteen sixty five
8:49
Speaker 2: from memory that he was shot down and captured by
8:51
Speaker 2: the viet colin I man have got that slightly wrong.
8:53
Speaker 1: But he might know him more more than I do then.
8:57
Speaker 1: But he, uh, he was almost immediately the senior man
9:03
Speaker 1: in the in the prison camp. And so not only
9:06
Speaker 1: is he being tortured and and you know, held and indefinitely,
9:11
Speaker 1: and they're trying to exploit him. But he's he's also
9:14
Speaker 1: responsible to take charge and be the senior senior person
9:18
Speaker 1: and promulgate codes of conduct and maintain order and discipline
9:23
Speaker 1: and basically is responsible for, you know, the the morale
9:26
Speaker 1: and moral welfare of all the all the military that
9:30
Speaker 1: are that are captured there, which is a massive responsibility. Well,
9:34
Speaker 1: it happens that you couldn't have picked a better person
9:37
Speaker 1: for that job, which it's it's a it's an awful job,
9:40
Speaker 1: you know, but he was the right person at the
9:43
Speaker 1: right time in a way that just haven't seen replicated
9:45
Speaker 1: anywhere in history of It's amazing. But it happens that
9:48
Speaker 1: he was very well versed in philosophy before he found
9:53
Speaker 1: himself in that situation, and particularly the philosophy of the Stoics,
9:57
Speaker 1: and he and he found that, uh, the you know,
9:59
Speaker 1: the the philosophy specifically of the of the Stoic epictetis
10:04
Speaker 1: was extremely relevant to his uh situation and you know,
10:08
Speaker 1: maintaining his composure and his calm and UH and his
10:12
Speaker 1: honor in that uh, in that horrible situation that he
10:16
Speaker 1: was in. And so after he was repatriated after the
10:20
Speaker 1: Vietnam War, the US War and Vietnam was over, he
10:23
Speaker 1: is uh, you know, he goes and on the kind
10:26
Speaker 1: of this campaign of you know, writing essays, and he
10:29
Speaker 1: moves up and ranked to admiral. Uh. He is awarded
10:33
Speaker 1: the Congressional Metal Bonner for some specific heroic things that
10:36
Speaker 1: happened in that uh, in that prison camp situation. But
10:41
Speaker 1: he he basically is teaching and writing on epictetis like
10:45
Speaker 1: in the nineteen seventies and eighties, and that well before
10:48
Speaker 1: there was an internet like stoicism movement, and so his
10:52
Speaker 1: essays are kind of popular at the academy. People people
10:55
Speaker 1: learn about him and say, well, what was this guy
10:57
Speaker 1: into and and and they they see that he's talking
10:59
Speaker 1: about this this philosopher and how it his thoughts applied
11:03
Speaker 1: to his military situation. And that's kind of like the
11:07
Speaker 1: basis of my thesis that that if in so far
11:11
Speaker 1: as any existing philosophy counts as a warrior philosophy, Stoicism
11:16
Speaker 1: is very definitely it. You know. So yeah, now I'm
11:21
Speaker 1: just for the listeners. I'm just like looking if I
11:26
Speaker 1: can see it.
11:26
Speaker 2: But I have a copy of one of his essays,
11:30
Speaker 2: Courage under fire, testing, testing, Epictitis's doctrines and the Culdron
11:35
Speaker 2: of human behavior, right, and and Stocktal writs in that
11:38
Speaker 2: and epic, which you'll have read, and it's I encourage
11:41
Speaker 2: everybody to buy that.
11:42
Speaker 1: Because it's more like an essay than the book. Right.
11:45
Speaker 2: But he says that when he got shot down and
11:47
Speaker 2: he ejected out of his aircraft, he was coming in
11:51
Speaker 2: to land on his party and he saw the Viet
11:53
Speaker 2: Cong and he said to himself, I'm now leaving my word,
11:56
Speaker 2: the word of technology, and I'm entering into the world
12:00
Speaker 2: epic titis.
12:02
Speaker 1: Which is pretty cool shit, right.
12:03
Speaker 2: And I think a modern stoic so died a little
12:08
Speaker 2: bit of depths to what you talked about. I think
12:12
Speaker 2: stock Deal was tortured on sixteen separate occasions and spent
12:16
Speaker 2: a total of almost four years in solitary confinement, which
12:20
Speaker 2: is just bonkers, right for somebody to spend that much
12:25
Speaker 2: time and not only survived, but inspire his fellow prisoners
12:29
Speaker 2: to survive.
12:29
Speaker 1: I think it was John McKean, wasn't it.
12:31
Speaker 2: He spent five and John McKean sent the year senator
12:34
Speaker 2: who died six or seven years ago. He spent I
12:37
Speaker 2: think five years in Hanoi, Hilton, and he went on
12:40
Speaker 2: record to say that he said, if stock deal hadn't
12:44
Speaker 2: been in there, he said, I would not have survived,
12:46
Speaker 2: and many of my friends would not have survived.
12:48
Speaker 1: And has a lot to do. Yeah, that has a
12:52
Speaker 1: lot to do with why he was awarded the Medal
12:54
Speaker 1: of Honors. Basically in his in his view, you know,
12:57
Speaker 1: he's there to promulgate you know, codes and everything, and
13:02
Speaker 1: he's doing this via via tap codes through a walk
13:06
Speaker 1: like he's in he's isolated, uh, you know, solitary confinement.
13:11
Speaker 1: But they're able to communicate very efficiently. They got really
13:13
Speaker 1: good at it. They had lots of time, you know,
13:16
Speaker 1: and uh, and so for all these years he's the commander,
13:19
Speaker 1: but he can't even see anyone face to face, and
13:21
Speaker 1: just the word is being relaid through taps. But in
13:25
Speaker 1: his view, what he very quickly figured out is the
13:29
Speaker 1: the you know, the the captives that became broken morally
13:35
Speaker 1: and basically saw themselves as traders. Those are the ones
13:38
Speaker 1: that died, you know. And so the way to you
13:41
Speaker 1: know the matter of uh, you know, finding the ways
13:46
Speaker 1: to communicate with people and encourage them and and give
13:48
Speaker 1: them ways to behave that would work in that situation
13:53
Speaker 1: which the you know, the books, but the rules on
13:55
Speaker 1: the books did not work. You could torture anyone to
13:59
Speaker 1: do anything. Sorry, I think we can.
14:02
Speaker 2: We need to take a step back here, William, because
14:04
Speaker 2: I think the it's important for people to understand.
14:07
Speaker 1: That the the the.
14:09
Speaker 2: Advice or the edict or the orders at the time
14:12
Speaker 2: was that that if if you were being tortured or interrogated,
14:16
Speaker 2: that you say nothing, and that you know, you don't
14:20
Speaker 2: tell them anything. And and and they quickly realized that
14:23
Speaker 2: this bullshit stock deal, I think quickly realized that this
14:25
Speaker 2: is going to get our men killed. And you know
14:28
Speaker 2: if we say nothing, so it was it was a bite.
14:31
Speaker 3: Then how do how do you you hold out as
14:34
Speaker 3: long as you possibly can because information is timely on
14:38
Speaker 3: the battlefield, right And then how do you how do
14:41
Speaker 3: you drip in misinformation when you're being tortured so that
14:45
Speaker 3: you kind.
14:45
Speaker 1: Of confuse the enemy.
14:47
Speaker 2: And I think not it's it's that that the directions
14:50
Speaker 2: have changed under torture, haven't they. I think this whole
14:53
Speaker 2: idea that you death before dishonor I think it used
14:57
Speaker 2: to be, wasn't it.
14:59
Speaker 1: Well, you know, you're still told you know, I'm I
15:02
Speaker 1: give my name, rank, service number, and date of birth,
15:04
Speaker 1: you know, and that that that that that was kind
15:07
Speaker 1: of it what he told them to Basically what he
15:09
Speaker 1: put out that they weren't going for the torturers were
15:12
Speaker 1: not trying to necessarily get military information. That wasn't the
15:16
Speaker 1: main point. Uh, you know, they would take it, but
15:19
Speaker 1: most of the information was not any good anyway, and
15:21
Speaker 1: you know that they they it's it's time late by
15:25
Speaker 1: the time the pilots captured. Anyway. What Way really wanted
15:29
Speaker 1: was to get the prisoners on camera to say this Vietnam.
15:33
Speaker 1: You know this, this war effort is criminal, and I
15:36
Speaker 1: am a criminal, and I implore you know, my country
15:40
Speaker 1: to to abandon the war effort. It was to attack
15:42
Speaker 1: the morale at home, and it was extremely effective, you know,
15:45
Speaker 1: and it was a it was a program of political exploitation.
15:49
Speaker 1: And uh, basically, the the the rule that Stockdale put
15:55
Speaker 1: out was not that you should not you s y'all
16:00
Speaker 1: not do these various things. But if you must do
16:04
Speaker 1: this thing, you must accept torture to do it. And
16:08
Speaker 1: so what that does is it's a psychological switch for
16:12
Speaker 1: the you know, the person who is being tortured that now, uh,
16:16
Speaker 1: you know, you can torture someone into breaking no matter what.
16:19
Speaker 1: It doesn't it doesn't matter who they are, everyone else,
16:23
Speaker 1: and uh so everyone's gonna break and they know that
16:26
Speaker 1: when they go in. And so that that makes people
16:29
Speaker 1: think like, well, why would I with dan torture? Why
16:32
Speaker 1: don't I just why don't I just give up my secrets?
16:34
Speaker 1: Why don't I just give up now? And so the
16:36
Speaker 1: rule is no, no, you must accept torture. And so
16:39
Speaker 1: now it becomes an active agency being being tortured becomes
16:44
Speaker 1: an active defiance. And and and you know, Stockdale at
16:47
Speaker 1: one point even even basically said, you know, go ahead,
16:51
Speaker 1: give me, give me the torture, and and the torture says,
16:54
Speaker 1: you know, no, you're not worthy of it, you know,
16:57
Speaker 1: and it's just crazy as bonkers. But for the for
17:00
Speaker 1: the prisoners, now they can hold their heads high and
17:04
Speaker 1: and they are much less compliant overall, because, uh, you know,
17:09
Speaker 1: first of all that you know, they would stand a
17:11
Speaker 1: lot longer than they would otherwise. And whenever they do
17:14
Speaker 1: eventually give in, they're still they know that, you know,
17:17
Speaker 1: the torture is their enemy. You don't you know, you
17:20
Speaker 1: don't meet a torture halfway. You don't level with them,
17:24
Speaker 1: you don't reason with them. They are your enemy, and
17:27
Speaker 1: your absolution is only going to be found in your
17:29
Speaker 1: compatriots and in the in the your fellow prisoners. And
17:32
Speaker 1: so whenever they would come back from that, you know
17:35
Speaker 1: they were they were going to be forgiven ultimately. And
17:38
Speaker 1: and that's that's that understanding kind of helped people retain
17:41
Speaker 1: their moral dignity and their honor and uh and help
17:46
Speaker 1: them survive. And that was a huge part of it.
17:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I went through combat survival and Resistance to
17:52
Speaker 2: interrogation training, which was ten days. It was pretty hardcore
17:55
Speaker 2: back then, but but the whole idea was resistance to interrogation.
18:01
Speaker 2: As you say, you know that you everybody, they know
18:04
Speaker 2: that you've got a cracking point. But you've just got
18:07
Speaker 2: to resist as much as you possibly can.
18:10
Speaker 1: That's really the key.
18:11
Speaker 4: And I think that's what stopped to stop deal was
18:13
Speaker 4: getting at and that, you know, having holding your head
18:17
Speaker 4: high if you've resisted, because it was the shame that
18:21
Speaker 4: when people cracked, and particularly back in those days when
18:24
Speaker 4: it was you shouldn't tell anything, it was this this
18:27
Speaker 4: shame that was horrible.
18:28
Speaker 1: For people, right and that's what killed them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
18:33
Speaker 2: Now So so the stoicism idea, why do you think
18:40
Speaker 2: it lands itself so well, particularly to the military. I mean,
18:46
Speaker 2: I was part of the There was a stoicism story
18:50
Speaker 2: coon ex Military conference that was organized a couple of
18:54
Speaker 2: years ago, and I actually spoke on it, and I
18:56
Speaker 2: was amazed how many American military offer We're speaking about
19:02
Speaker 2: stoicism and not conference, and it really is very widely embraced,
19:08
Speaker 2: particularly in the US military, I think, way more than
19:12
Speaker 2: the British military and the Australian military. I'm working with
19:14
Speaker 2: Australian military officers at the minute, and there's not the
19:18
Speaker 2: same acceptance of stoicism or embracing of stoicism as there
19:23
Speaker 2: tends to be in the US military.
19:26
Speaker 1: And why is that? Do you know why that is?
19:28
Speaker 2: Is it mostly that stock Deal was the guy who
19:31
Speaker 2: kind of brought it into the.
19:32
Speaker 1: US military that probably, I'm sure it didn't hurt. Yeah,
19:38
Speaker 1: I think I think that You've got plenty of people
19:40
Speaker 1: in the military now who are into indo stoicism that
19:42
Speaker 1: don't you know, didn't necessarily come to it by way
19:44
Speaker 1: of by way of Stockdale. There is definitely an undercurrent
19:48
Speaker 1: of it. But I mean you asked, how is it
19:53
Speaker 1: so resonant with the with the military. Well, it's a
19:55
Speaker 1: very uncompromising uh philosophy, and it is is very much
20:01
Speaker 1: about you know, my own internal moral virtue as being
20:06
Speaker 1: what matters, and that has very deep resonance with duty
20:11
Speaker 1: and concepts of duty and and doing what my job
20:14
Speaker 1: is as a human being, which often coincides with you know,
20:20
Speaker 1: where I'm where I'm at in society and some role
20:22
Speaker 1: that I that that I play in society as part
20:26
Speaker 1: of a team or a family or a unit, or
20:28
Speaker 1: a or a city or whatever it is. Uh, that's
20:31
Speaker 1: very deeply embedded in the Stoics value set. So you've
20:35
Speaker 1: got you've got the idea that it's conducive to the
20:39
Speaker 1: things that you want in a warrior, you know, courage
20:42
Speaker 1: and honor and loyalty in those things. It very much
20:47
Speaker 1: encourages those qualities. But also it uh, it provides an
20:52
Speaker 1: intellectual foundation for the more the warrior ethos, you know, uh,
20:57
Speaker 1: in a way that you know, you compare it to
20:59
Speaker 1: other comprehen hints of systems like you know, Hegelianism or
21:03
Speaker 1: Marxism or something like that, and none of those really
21:06
Speaker 1: coincide with you know, they don't resonate with the military.
21:10
Speaker 1: I think stoicism more than anything else, you know, it
21:15
Speaker 1: is it is a deep intellectual foundation. So so you know,
21:19
Speaker 1: unlike these other coherent philosophies, it resonates with the military.
21:23
Speaker 1: But unlike you know, warrior codes like lushido or you know,
21:28
Speaker 1: medieval chivalry, you know, these warrior codes that exist, it's
21:31
Speaker 1: deep and intellectually coherent in ways. Where those things are
21:35
Speaker 1: just a set of a list of values that don't
21:38
Speaker 1: necessarily have a why behind it, Stoicism provides a why
21:42
Speaker 1: behind you know, why should I be loyal? Why should
21:45
Speaker 1: I have courage? Why should I not surrender? You know,
21:47
Speaker 1: that's kind of the difference between a code and a philosophy.
21:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's big on on arata and good
21:55
Speaker 2: character and as you alluded to, playing your given roles well.
22:00
Speaker 1: Right, not just doing your given rule, but playing it well.
22:02
Speaker 2: And for the Stoics, that's largely about your your your character,
22:07
Speaker 2: and especially when nobody's looking. I think, you know, we
22:10
Speaker 2: can all have good character when we're being watched, but
22:13
Speaker 2: when nobody's looking, that's kind of the acid test, isn't it. Sorry,
22:19
Speaker 2: you gonna be gonna say something.
22:20
Speaker 1: Well, that that idea of when nobody's looking, that's actually
22:24
Speaker 1: there's there's a whole lot about that that you know,
22:27
Speaker 1: I've written about of the idea where we often say
22:30
Speaker 1: honor is doing the right thing even when nobody's looking
22:32
Speaker 1: or acting as if you're being watched. The Stokes were
22:35
Speaker 1: talking about that two thousand years ago about basically one
22:40
Speaker 1: of their emotions, you know, that they would consider a
22:43
Speaker 1: rational emotion is a sense of you know, it's not fear,
22:49
Speaker 1: but a sense of caution about being worthy of moral censure,
22:54
Speaker 1: you know. Uh. And and basically if you try to
22:56
Speaker 1: that's that's a mouthful to try to translate. Yeah, you
23:02
Speaker 1: translated as honor. It makes perfect sense, you know. That
23:05
Speaker 1: is basically the Stoke concept of honor is the idea
23:08
Speaker 1: that I am I am you know, getting close to
23:12
Speaker 1: being tempted to do something that you know, I know
23:15
Speaker 1: is shameful. And you know, whether it's to quit and
23:18
Speaker 1: fall out of this run, you know, or to you know,
23:21
Speaker 1: to go and uh, you know, tell a tell an
23:25
Speaker 1: untruth or or whatever do something dishonorable. I feel a
23:30
Speaker 1: sense of like shame at at even that kind of
23:33
Speaker 1: being even thinking about that and being compelled in that direction.
23:36
Speaker 1: And so the Stokes basically gave that, gave that emotion
23:39
Speaker 1: a name. It's called you know, eto's it's it doesn't
23:41
Speaker 1: really translate well, but it translates as honor. Uh is
23:45
Speaker 1: one of the things I argue in the book, you know,
23:47
Speaker 1: and whenever you whenever you lay it out like that,
23:49
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, that's what they're talking about. They're talking
23:51
Speaker 1: about honor and uh and and it basically an intellectual
23:55
Speaker 1: foundation for this concept that in the military we think,
23:58
Speaker 1: you know, everyone knows what honor is, but when don't
24:00
Speaker 1: really think through the mechanics of how it works. And
24:03
Speaker 1: the Stoics did all that work for us. Yeah, yeah,
24:06
Speaker 1: and I think that.
24:07
Speaker 2: I think one of the other reasons why it is
24:10
Speaker 2: so pertinent for military personnel is that that Stoicism was
24:17
Speaker 2: heavily influenced by Socrates, who was actually part of the
24:22
Speaker 2: Greek He was a Greek military officer, and so there
24:25
Speaker 2: was there's right from the get go, there's undercurrents of
24:29
Speaker 2: duty and military in the origins of Stoicism.
24:34
Speaker 1: Way back at the start. So I think that's relevant.
24:37
Speaker 2: But I wanted to start to get practical, and I'm
24:40
Speaker 2: a fan of ibutitous as well. I've got a copy
24:43
Speaker 2: of the incredy On and the very first line of
24:46
Speaker 2: the encredy On of things. Some are in our power
24:51
Speaker 2: and others are not. So this is all about the
24:55
Speaker 2: Stoics dichotomy of control. So tell me how is the
25:00
Speaker 2: dichotomy of control apply under the water in a submarine
25:06
Speaker 2: under pressure.
25:08
Speaker 1: I'm glad you asked me about that, because this is
25:10
Speaker 1: one of my favorite topics because the the dichotomy of control,
25:14
Speaker 1: you know, framed as such, is kind of a it's
25:17
Speaker 1: like the first thing that you learn about Stoicism. It's
25:19
Speaker 1: it's a it's a very good magnet to Stoicism, but
25:22
Speaker 1: it is it is often like misunderstood or or it's
25:26
Speaker 1: kind of like not not really unpacked as as deeply
25:30
Speaker 1: as it as it goes. So, yes, there are things
25:33
Speaker 1: that are within my control and things that are not.
25:36
Speaker 1: And uh, and their great intellectual utility can be derived
25:40
Speaker 1: from separating the two. That's really conventional wisdom. Okay, and
25:44
Speaker 1: it sounds really profound, but uh, it's not really unique
25:48
Speaker 1: to Stoicism, but I tell you know, it is absolutely
25:52
Speaker 1: it's not wrong it's very important. And I tell you,
25:55
Speaker 1: on a submarine, whenever you see that hatch come shut,
25:59
Speaker 1: h and that last little sliver of sunlight goes away,
26:03
Speaker 1: and you know, like I am here, this is where
26:05
Speaker 1: I am. I'm in this machine and I am not
26:08
Speaker 1: going outside. I'm not going to go outside for for weeks,
26:13
Speaker 1: maybe months, like I'm not going anywhere. And uh, it's
26:18
Speaker 1: very easy to kind of lose it and think that,
26:20
Speaker 1: you know, feel a drift in somebody else's plan, and
26:24
Speaker 1: feel you know, if you start wishing you could go outside.
26:28
Speaker 1: But what you realize is that within the role that
26:32
Speaker 1: I have to play, you know, the job that I
26:34
Speaker 1: have to do, I have a job that I have
26:36
Speaker 1: to do, and I have choices to make and every
26:38
Speaker 1: there is always a choice of what to do. And
26:41
Speaker 1: within that there is freedom. And that's the idea. That's
26:45
Speaker 1: the idea that was so resonant with Stockdale while he's
26:50
Speaker 1: in prison, is that freedom is an internal state. And
26:55
Speaker 1: you know, you can imprison my body. This is what
26:57
Speaker 1: Epicteta says. You know, you can chain my life. Go ahead,
27:00
Speaker 1: you can't touch my my power of choice, you know
27:03
Speaker 1: you can you can imprison my whole. You know, miserable carcass.
27:07
Speaker 1: Go ahead, asshole, you know, try to reach me, you can't,
27:11
Speaker 1: And that that's kind of his whole uh construct. Now,
27:15
Speaker 1: where does the dichotomy of control you know? Uh, you know, basically,
27:21
Speaker 1: what does it leave on the table. Well, it's not
27:24
Speaker 1: just that there are things that we can control and
27:26
Speaker 1: as things that we can't. It's that what we can
27:28
Speaker 1: or can't control is a psychological test to identify if
27:32
Speaker 1: a given impression has to do with my virtue or
27:36
Speaker 1: does not. So, uh. The the like keystone concept of
27:41
Speaker 1: Stoicism is that virtue is the only good. Virtue is
27:45
Speaker 1: what matters. And you know, when I say good, I
27:48
Speaker 1: mean something that is, you know, genuinely beneficial to the
27:50
Speaker 1: person and worthy of pursuit. The Stoics believe that virtue
27:55
Speaker 1: is the only good, and all of their other beliefs
27:58
Speaker 1: basically flow from that lane. And the way that I
28:03
Speaker 1: can tell if something affects my virtue or reflects or
28:07
Speaker 1: expresses my virtue is whether I have you know, I
28:10
Speaker 1: can control that thing or not. And so that is
28:13
Speaker 1: how I psychologically pass the test of whether this thing
28:17
Speaker 1: affects my virtue or it is. As Epicatus would say,
28:20
Speaker 1: it is nothing to me. And whenever you really, when
28:24
Speaker 1: you follow this logic all the way out, you find
28:27
Speaker 1: that even my body, even my physical body, is nothing
28:31
Speaker 1: to me because I can't you know, there's a hell
28:35
Speaker 1: of a lot of things that I can and must
28:37
Speaker 1: do to try to take care of my body. You know,
28:39
Speaker 1: that's appropriate for me to do. It's appropriately for workout,
28:42
Speaker 1: and you know, restrict what I eat and things like that.
28:45
Speaker 1: That's what a you know, rational human should do. But
28:48
Speaker 1: try not to age. You know, your body is not
28:52
Speaker 1: completely in your control. Yes, and you know I could,
28:56
Speaker 1: I could do all the everything perfectly. I could get
28:57
Speaker 1: a disease tomorrow. But if i'm you know, if my
28:59
Speaker 1: body's control, my body is you know, is nothing to me,
29:02
Speaker 1: then what am I? You know, if I am not
29:05
Speaker 1: my body, then what am I? And the stoics would say,
29:10
Speaker 1: I am that faculty of choice that is that is
29:12
Speaker 1: internal to my you know, my being, my mind, my soul,
29:17
Speaker 1: that ability to make decisions and exercise agency is what
29:22
Speaker 1: I am and nothing else. And nobody can imprison that.
29:26
Speaker 1: Nobody can trap that in a in a metal tube. No,
29:29
Speaker 1: you know, nobody can torture that. No one can compel
29:32
Speaker 1: that to do anything. If I make a choice, that's
29:34
Speaker 1: ultimately me and that's on me. It's radical responsibility for
29:38
Speaker 1: everything that follows.
29:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think at Big t this year, I mean,
29:43
Speaker 2: he was a cripple. He was beaten by his Roman master,
29:48
Speaker 2: as you will well know, to the point where he
29:49
Speaker 2: became a crippolent and and he famously said that being
29:52
Speaker 2: a cripple is an impediment to the body, but not
29:56
Speaker 2: to the mind.
29:58
Speaker 1: Right.
29:58
Speaker 2: So the Stoics talked about this in or Citadel, which
30:01
Speaker 2: which you have have quite eloquently talked about just then.
30:04
Speaker 1: But you did mention virtue, and now a lot of
30:07
Speaker 1: people will be listening to virtue. What what's kind of
30:10
Speaker 1: what does that mean?
30:11
Speaker 2: So just tell our listeners what the Stoics meant by
30:16
Speaker 2: virtue and how you know, Hi, people, just normal people,
30:21
Speaker 2: whether they're in the military or not, can live a.
30:24
Speaker 1: Life of virtue. Virtue is being what you're supposed to be,
30:30
Speaker 1: being what a human is supposed to be. And you
30:32
Speaker 1: said you earlier used the word rita, and you know
30:35
Speaker 1: the word rita translates to virtue in English. That's the
30:38
Speaker 1: best approximation that we can get of it. But uh,
30:42
Speaker 1: you know, it's basically a quality of goodness or excellence,
30:47
Speaker 1: but it's it's specific and excellence to a certain end,
30:50
Speaker 1: to a purpose of what you are supposed to be
30:53
Speaker 1: as as a human being. So like a knife can
30:56
Speaker 1: have virtue if it cuts well. You know, a horse
30:59
Speaker 1: can have virtue if it runs well. But if a
31:02
Speaker 1: knife is good at striking blunt objects, that's not reason
31:06
Speaker 1: for me to say it's a good knife. That's not
31:07
Speaker 1: virtue for the knife. You know, if a horse makes
31:11
Speaker 1: good milk, like, that's not what horses are for, you know.
31:14
Speaker 1: So it has to be goodness, but goodness to a purpose,
31:18
Speaker 1: you know, a certain end or a mission or what
31:21
Speaker 1: you know. The philosophical term for this is te loos
31:24
Speaker 1: or purpose and so so obviously all right, well, what
31:28
Speaker 1: is the purpose of a human Well, the Stokes would say,
31:32
Speaker 1: it's to manifest reason. That is what separates humans from animals.
31:35
Speaker 1: That's that, you know, reason is humanity specific province you know,
31:40
Speaker 1: within the animal kingdom, only that humans have that. So
31:43
Speaker 1: manifesting reason is going to going to lead you to
31:46
Speaker 1: do acts that are virtue us such as you know
31:50
Speaker 1: that basically express the qualities of wisdom, courage, temperance or
31:54
Speaker 1: moderation depending on how you translate that one. And justice, yes, uh.
31:59
Speaker 1: And the thing is is like virtue is the key
32:01
Speaker 1: and it's being what you're supposed to be. And that
32:04
Speaker 1: will turn off a lot of especially young military guys,
32:06
Speaker 1: you know, because if I go in front of front
32:08
Speaker 1: of a bunch of soldiers or sailors and say, all right, man,
32:11
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about virtue today, They're all going
32:14
Speaker 1: to roll their eyes and say, like what is this church?
32:16
Speaker 1: You know, like I got this when I was a
32:19
Speaker 1: little kid, Like I don't need moral lessons. But if
32:22
Speaker 1: I go in front and then I say, no, no, no,
32:24
Speaker 1: all right man, today we're going to talk about being
32:27
Speaker 1: without fear. All right, We're going to talk about being
32:30
Speaker 1: perfectly disciplined, perfectly obedient to yourself and you know, and
32:36
Speaker 1: perfectly just and fearless in the achievement of and the
32:41
Speaker 1: manifestation of what humans are supposed to do for one
32:44
Speaker 1: of each other. Now I have their attention because it
32:47
Speaker 1: sounds kind of badass, but that's because it is okay.
32:50
Speaker 1: You know, this idea that virtue is just like sharing
32:53
Speaker 1: is caring and like you know and all this like
32:57
Speaker 1: helping little old ladies across the street. Yeah, you should
32:59
Speaker 1: do all those things. You should also be fearless, because
33:02
Speaker 1: that's what a human being is supposed to be. And
33:03
Speaker 1: that's that's what we figured out two thousand years ago,
33:07
Speaker 1: that courage is a virtue and it still is. You know,
33:12
Speaker 1: So this idea that it's all just this soft stuff.
33:15
Speaker 1: The guys that are attracted to stoicism in the military,
33:18
Speaker 1: you know, they come to it because they want to
33:20
Speaker 1: be bad asses. But why do you want to be badasses? Well,
33:25
Speaker 1: it's because somewhere in your head. You you got it
33:28
Speaker 1: in your head that that's what you're supposed to be.
33:30
Speaker 1: You know. You you watch Batman save the you know,
33:33
Speaker 1: save the innocent, and you want to be that. You know,
33:36
Speaker 1: the Mandalorian you know, goes in and kicks ass and
33:40
Speaker 1: you know, kills the bad guys and saves the good
33:42
Speaker 1: guys and protects the innocent, and you say, that's what
33:44
Speaker 1: I want to be, you know. And it's that's why
33:46
Speaker 1: we tell the tales that we do. That's why we talk,
33:49
Speaker 1: you know, have been telling stories of knights and chivalry
33:52
Speaker 1: since there have been such a thing. Is because these
33:54
Speaker 1: are values, These are intrinsic values to be human and
33:57
Speaker 1: we shouldn't be you know, afraid of that, are ashamed
33:59
Speaker 1: of that. It's a it's a very good it's an
34:02
Speaker 1: ancient picture of what the human is supposed to be.
34:06
Speaker 2: And I think there's when we circle back to the
34:09
Speaker 2: virtues there because you're talking about a badass, you're talking
34:12
Speaker 2: about the military, and there are there's lots of people
34:15
Speaker 2: who are anti military and say, you know, we shouldn't
34:18
Speaker 2: have any militaries because that's what kills people. And it's
34:21
Speaker 2: like there's a brilliant ted talk that people should listen.
34:24
Speaker 2: It's a Dutch senior Dutch army officer who comes on
34:28
Speaker 2: to stage.
34:28
Speaker 1: I don't know if you've ever seen it.
34:30
Speaker 2: He comes on with a gun with a rifle and
34:32
Speaker 2: and he basically a paraphrase, but he says, you know,
34:36
Speaker 2: I have this rifle and I'm you know, there to
34:40
Speaker 2: use this rifle so that other people don't right that
34:44
Speaker 2: this is the thing. But this is where I think
34:47
Speaker 2: these the virtues play a role here, right, because people
34:52
Speaker 2: could want to be a bad ass and go and
34:53
Speaker 2: join a gang or the mafia, or they can go
34:58
Speaker 2: and join the military. And the difference I think from
35:01
Speaker 2: a Stoic perspective, is about wisdom, right, because you know,
35:06
Speaker 2: you think of a suicide bomber, right, who blows themselves up.
35:10
Speaker 2: They've got courage, They've got freaking courage and speeds to
35:13
Speaker 2: go and blow themselves up. But the Stoics would say,
35:16
Speaker 2: but they have misplaced courage. They have courage without wisdom.
35:20
Speaker 2: So wisdom is about knowing what is right morally to do.
35:25
Speaker 2: And I think that's where these virtues interact with each
35:28
Speaker 2: other to Actually it's all about that that virtue applied
35:35
Speaker 2: in the real world.
35:37
Speaker 1: That's right. And really, if you kind of get under
35:40
Speaker 1: the hood of the Stomics, all the four cardinal virtues
35:44
Speaker 1: that we just describe, you know, wisdom, courage.
35:46
Speaker 2: Actually, can we just give a quick summary of each
35:50
Speaker 2: one of those for the for the end, because it's
35:52
Speaker 2: really really important because this is so central to Stoicism.
35:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, so, so what's called the cardinal virtues? And these
35:58
Speaker 1: these aren't invented by the Stoics. They're really they're best
36:01
Speaker 1: attributed to Plato. But who knows that Plato you know,
36:05
Speaker 1: from somewhere else, you know, but they're but they're in everything.
36:08
Speaker 1: Now you know that they've they've got swept up into
36:10
Speaker 1: Christianity and other other religions and other philosophies and things
36:13
Speaker 1: like that, but that's because they're so fundamental to being
36:17
Speaker 1: a human being. But basically, the four ingredients of a
36:20
Speaker 1: good human are wisdom, you know, uh, courage, temperance which
36:26
Speaker 1: is basically prudence in choosing and what I what I select,
36:29
Speaker 1: and not not taking too much, not taking too little,
36:32
Speaker 1: And justice, which is uh, concerns others, you know, and
36:37
Speaker 1: more more about social justice, isn't it.
36:41
Speaker 5: Y?
36:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. It's it's about you know, the correct
36:45
Speaker 1: treatment and regard for others.
36:48
Speaker 3: Uh.
36:48
Speaker 1: And basically the idea is that there's this whole taxonomy
36:52
Speaker 1: of virtues, of subordinate virtues of you know, generosity, magnanimity, charisma, whatever,
36:57
Speaker 1: you know, any good thing you want to say about
36:59
Speaker 1: a person is going to be some derivative or some
37:03
Speaker 1: combination of those those original for so they work kind
37:06
Speaker 1: of like the primary colors of you know, red, blue,
37:10
Speaker 1: and yeah, and so like all the shades and hues
37:13
Speaker 1: of a good person is gonna be some combination of
37:15
Speaker 1: those four original virtues. Is the idea, and it's a
37:20
Speaker 1: very good framework. It's a very effective thing. And so
37:23
Speaker 1: like I get out, you know, I have I have kids,
37:25
Speaker 1: you know, my kids are preteens, and I get asked
37:29
Speaker 1: if I teach them Stoicism, And I really don't directly,
37:32
Speaker 1: like they don't need to know who Epictetus is. That
37:33
Speaker 1: there's plenty of time for that later. But I do say,
37:36
Speaker 1: you know, all, right, qualities of a good human go,
37:39
Speaker 1: you know, like what are they? You're gonna know the
37:42
Speaker 1: four cardinal virtues and you're gonna be able to describe
37:44
Speaker 1: what those things mean because knowing, just just knowing what
37:48
Speaker 1: the qualities of an ideal human being are is like
37:51
Speaker 1: half the battle of getting there, you know, having that
37:55
Speaker 1: reference point, but within it, if you get a little
37:58
Speaker 1: bit deeper into into the the framework how you talked
38:01
Speaker 1: about how they all kind of run together. Absolutely they do,
38:04
Speaker 1: and really they they the Stoics basically believe that all
38:07
Speaker 1: of the individual virtues are kind of variants of wisdom. Uh,
38:13
Speaker 1: and that that traces back to Socrates, who's kind of
38:15
Speaker 1: like the granddaddy of of Stoicism. It's basically, all virtue
38:18
Speaker 1: is a form of knowledge, and uh, basically vice is
38:23
Speaker 1: a form of ignorance. So when somebody is vicious or
38:26
Speaker 1: somebody is somebody is bad or deficient in some way.
38:29
Speaker 1: You know, I shouldn't I shouldn't hate them. I should
38:32
Speaker 1: just feel sorry for them and teach them if I
38:34
Speaker 1: can enlighten them, mainly by my example, you know. But
38:38
Speaker 1: but that idea. Basically in the Stoic taxonomy, you know,
38:42
Speaker 1: wisdom is wisdom, courage is wisdom, and what is to
38:47
Speaker 1: be endured, uh, temperance is wisdom, and what is what
38:50
Speaker 1: is to be chosen or selected? And and justice is
38:54
Speaker 1: uh wisdom and what is to be done towards others
38:58
Speaker 1: and that. So if you're one, you're going to be deficient.
39:01
Speaker 2: All yeah, very cool, nice explanation and so so met
39:07
Speaker 2: how do you bring storicism into your life on a
39:12
Speaker 2: daily basis?
39:15
Speaker 1: Well, I very often wish that I were more stoked
39:18
Speaker 1: than I am when I get really pissed off about
39:19
Speaker 1: something or you know, you know, I'm worried about something
39:23
Speaker 1: that works, some stupid thing, and I'm just like I wish,
39:26
Speaker 1: I wish I could just not think about this right
39:30
Speaker 1: now and be stoic about it, you know. But we're
39:33
Speaker 1: all we're all human beings. But it's good to have
39:35
Speaker 1: that ideal and have that reference point, and I'm definitely
39:38
Speaker 1: I believe very strongly that we're brought closer to the
39:40
Speaker 1: ideal by contemplating it. Uh. For more specifics, you know
39:45
Speaker 1: that there there are various mental exercises that the that
39:48
Speaker 1: the Stoics teach that are are powerful psychological exercises, whether
39:53
Speaker 1: or without the philosophy. One of them is, you know,
39:55
Speaker 1: visualizing hardship, visualizing the negative thing, the worst thing that
39:59
Speaker 1: can happen. I get fired my job tomorrow. You know this,
40:02
Speaker 1: this meeting goes terribly. You know, some something I'm worried about,
40:07
Speaker 1: you know, and then I think about, okay, well how
40:08
Speaker 1: would I handle that? And thinking through those things. You know,
40:12
Speaker 1: it's kind of mentally rehearsing. It does several things. It
40:16
Speaker 1: means that you know, if if the bad thing does happen,
40:20
Speaker 1: it's not a total shock. I have kind of fown
40:23
Speaker 1: through my next steps, recognizing that there are next steps
40:26
Speaker 1: that you know, the world will not end if I
40:28
Speaker 1: get fired tomorrow. You know, whatever the bad thing is
40:32
Speaker 1: that I'm worried about, the world will not end. I
40:35
Speaker 1: will go on. That is a calming effect. You know
40:41
Speaker 1: that that helps me to cope and to realize, okay,
40:43
Speaker 1: there are it's a lot more rational now I can.
40:46
Speaker 1: I can focus on whatever the next appropriate thing for
40:49
Speaker 1: me to do is, and then if the bad thing
40:51
Speaker 1: doesn't happen, I can. You know, I'm so happy, yes,
40:56
Speaker 1: you know, and I mean, I mean the Stoics were
40:59
Speaker 1: extreme in this. You know. Epictitus says this, and then
41:02
Speaker 1: Marcus Aurelius repeats it that when you when you kiss
41:05
Speaker 1: your child good night, you know, tell yourself boom, yeah,
41:10
Speaker 1: you could be dead in the morning. And uh, that
41:13
Speaker 1: sounds like self torture. But what better way to cherish
41:18
Speaker 1: every moment, you know, whenever, that you have with this person.
41:21
Speaker 1: And so the next day when the kids being a
41:24
Speaker 1: pain in the ass about something, you know, you can
41:27
Speaker 1: it's a it's a very good calming effect of like, no,
41:30
Speaker 1: there is an appropriate thing for me to do here
41:31
Speaker 1: as a parent, and it's you know, not to yell
41:34
Speaker 1: and scream. It's it's to hold the line and you know,
41:37
Speaker 1: show discipline and in some way and you know, show
41:40
Speaker 1: what the right thing to do is. And you know,
41:42
Speaker 1: maybe it's to be mad, but it's not to be irrational.
41:46
Speaker 1: It's not it's not to let it ruin my day,
41:48
Speaker 1: and it's to do the appropriate thing, and uh, and
41:51
Speaker 1: it's very powerful to that end.
41:52
Speaker 2: I think that that case, it's kind of an extension
41:57
Speaker 2: of what you probably won't be able to see that,
41:59
Speaker 2: but what is tattooed on my arm, which is Memento Moury,
42:04
Speaker 2: which I obviously got from from from the Stoics, and
42:07
Speaker 2: and that I think this whole idea of contemplating the
42:14
Speaker 2: shortness of life and contemplating your own mortality and the
42:18
Speaker 2: mortality of your kids, not to be morose, as Marcus
42:21
Speaker 2: aureallys puts out, not to be morose, but just to
42:24
Speaker 2: realize that life is a precious gift.
42:27
Speaker 1: And you should wake up every single.
42:29
Speaker 2: Day, as Marcus tells us, with the extreme gratitude, just
42:33
Speaker 2: to be alive and use that thought Memento Moury to
42:37
Speaker 2: judge your behaviors and your actions that day.
42:39
Speaker 1: I mean, if people.
42:42
Speaker 5: Were to really do that on a deal, I actually
42:45
Speaker 5: encourage people to write the mental moray on the bathroom
42:48
Speaker 5: mirror and every morning to get up and look at
42:51
Speaker 5: it and go, how frigging lucky am I?
42:54
Speaker 1: Just to be alive?
42:55
Speaker 2: Right, all the shit that happens, all the people who
42:57
Speaker 2: get killed by accidents, by you know, the things of
43:01
Speaker 2: other people, by diseases, by floods, and you know, it's
43:06
Speaker 2: just that and the fact that even that we are
43:09
Speaker 2: alive is just a ridiculously lucky right just to be born.
43:13
Speaker 2: But I think if you just contemplate that on a
43:16
Speaker 2: daily basis with the intention of then okay, so how
43:20
Speaker 2: do I be virtuosed today? If I'm so friggin lucky?
43:23
Speaker 2: How do I live that?
43:25
Speaker 1: I think that's really key, isn't it bringing those things together.
43:28
Speaker 1: I think it's extremely powerful for for keeping things in
43:32
Speaker 1: perspective of you know, this thing is bothering me. I'm
43:35
Speaker 1: worried about this thing. Who cares? Like, you know, like
43:38
Speaker 1: this this other guy, this officer that I'm I'm competing
43:42
Speaker 1: with for for the favor of the captain or you know,
43:45
Speaker 1: for the for the promotion slot. Like that guy is
43:48
Speaker 1: getting groomed for admiral and I'm not like.
43:50
Speaker 2: Oh boo, who, like, who gives a ship's going to
43:54
Speaker 2: be dad very soon, You're gonna be.
43:56
Speaker 1: Warm food, you know, Like, who cares? This is so
44:00
Speaker 1: Epictetus says about you know, money, power, thing, you know,
44:05
Speaker 1: things like that. He says, they're scattering nuts and figs.
44:08
Speaker 1: The children scramble after the nuts and figs.
44:11
Speaker 2: But nice, Yeah, that's interesting, that's what That's really quite interesting.
44:17
Speaker 2: So so let's stay and talk about and choosing the
44:22
Speaker 2: hard life, right, So the historics like to talk about
44:25
Speaker 2: the choice of Hercules or Heracles.
44:28
Speaker 1: As it was in the in the ancient Greek.
44:30
Speaker 2: And you know, he's at the fork and the road,
44:32
Speaker 2: and and he's got Khakia trying to lead him one way,
44:35
Speaker 2: the life of ease and comfort and and arity, trying
44:39
Speaker 2: to say, if you follow my past, your life.
44:42
Speaker 1: Will be difficult, but it will be truly fulfilling.
44:45
Speaker 2: And to talk us through the morality about choosing a
44:50
Speaker 2: harder path.
44:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, there's so many different ways you can
44:55
Speaker 1: go with it. But but like, why why would I
44:58
Speaker 1: do that? Does does that?
44:59
Speaker 3: Now?
44:59
Speaker 1: Does that? I mean? I need to just take cold
45:00
Speaker 1: showers from now on, or you know, just go for
45:03
Speaker 1: sand in my bed, or so just make life suck
45:05
Speaker 1: for no reason. I don't. I don't think it means that.
45:08
Speaker 1: And like stoics will get made fun of for that
45:11
Speaker 1: of like, oh, we're just gonna smash my face into
45:14
Speaker 1: ice until I'm until I'm a hard person. I think
45:17
Speaker 1: I think it there is a general goodness in in
45:20
Speaker 1: exercising discipline with the various comforts that we have in accesses,
45:23
Speaker 1: especially especially today whenever you know obesity is a is
45:27
Speaker 1: an epidemic. How ridiculous is this? You know that that
45:30
Speaker 1: that we're we've got it so good that that's the problem.
45:33
Speaker 1: You know. Uh, the I think that I I like
45:38
Speaker 1: to think of it as a school. You can you
45:40
Speaker 1: can choose one school, you know, you could call it
45:43
Speaker 1: a path, call it a you know, a lifestyle. I
45:47
Speaker 1: think of the Stoics as a school. And you know,
45:51
Speaker 1: I could I could choose this other school over here
45:54
Speaker 1: of just conventional wisdom of just like let me maximize
45:57
Speaker 1: my comfort and maximize my you know, status, and and
46:01
Speaker 1: all these care about all these nuts and figs that
46:03
Speaker 1: the children scramble after. Or I could choose this other
46:06
Speaker 1: school and uh, and and focus on my arata I'm
46:10
Speaker 1: virtue and do what I am supposed to do and
46:13
Speaker 1: do and do the things that I'm supposed to do
46:15
Speaker 1: for the people that matter to me and and for
46:19
Speaker 1: the people that are depending on me, because so many
46:21
Speaker 1: are and I think about these these two alternate schools
46:25
Speaker 1: now if I am going to go on a dangerous journey,
46:31
Speaker 1: who from which school would I rather recruit my traveling companions?
46:37
Speaker 1: And it's very obvious which which I will? You know?
46:41
Speaker 1: And if that, if that is the case, then I
46:44
Speaker 1: think the question is answers itself as to which school
46:47
Speaker 1: would make a better me and if if that is
46:50
Speaker 1: important to me, as it must be important to all
46:53
Speaker 1: the people who are important to me.
46:56
Speaker 2: So this this water or mindset that you talk about it,
47:00
Speaker 2: we can see why it has real implications commotations, utility
47:06
Speaker 2: and in the military. Right, But when the let's let's
47:10
Speaker 2: just talk about when there's no battle field, right when
47:13
Speaker 2: when the battle is parenting, it's illness, it's grief, it's work, pressure,
47:18
Speaker 2: it's deckheads in your environment and you know it's it's
47:23
Speaker 2: it's it's stressed like hard. Does that warrior mindset apply
47:28
Speaker 2: to and help the average individual when that's their battlefield
47:32
Speaker 2: on a daily basis?
47:34
Speaker 1: Well, I think that the key is recognizing that the
47:37
Speaker 1: warrior mentality is it's not about violence. Uh, it's that
47:44
Speaker 1: that is a that is a I'm glad you've I'm
47:46
Speaker 1: glad you've said that. Yeah, it's it's about I mean
47:50
Speaker 1: I mean that that's the thing I've got to do.
47:52
Speaker 1: If I've got to do it, I've got to be
47:53
Speaker 1: good at it. I don't want to be bad at it,
47:56
Speaker 1: you know, Like I'm people depend on me to be
47:58
Speaker 1: good at it. But it's about duty. Duty is the key,
48:04
Speaker 1: and everything should be examined through that lens of duty
48:09
Speaker 1: of what do I owe? What are my appropriate actions
48:12
Speaker 1: contingent to the role that I play or the various
48:15
Speaker 1: roles that I play. And I'm gonna be juggling many
48:19
Speaker 1: roles at any given time. At this at this moment
48:22
Speaker 1: i'm talking to you, I am simultaneously a husband, a father,
48:25
Speaker 1: a brother, a son, a warrior, and a citizen in
48:29
Speaker 1: my country. Each one of those things lev's different responsibilities
48:32
Speaker 1: on me, and I don't get to just choose one.
48:36
Speaker 1: I don't get to just say I'm just going to
48:37
Speaker 1: be a father and I hope the rest falls into place,
48:39
Speaker 1: because if I fall down on all these other duties,
48:42
Speaker 1: I'm going to be an awful father as well. You know.
48:45
Speaker 1: I need to find the through line, and that's the
48:48
Speaker 1: that's the key, is recognizing that I occupy many roles,
48:53
Speaker 1: all of which levy various responsibilities. On me, and it
48:57
Speaker 1: is incumbent on me to find the through line and
49:00
Speaker 1: do what satisfies them all as optimally as possible. And
49:05
Speaker 1: I think that that that kind of gets away you asked.
49:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, it does, and it's linked to you because you've
49:11
Speaker 2: mentioned it. I mean one of the lines. I think
49:14
Speaker 2: it was the incredy on. I got that that Epictetus
49:17
Speaker 2: says that we are all actors in the play and
49:20
Speaker 2: that sometimes we get a part that's not of our choosing, right,
49:25
Speaker 2: And this is where they this is where the story
49:28
Speaker 2: to talk about feat and and for me, Fea, it
49:31
Speaker 2: isn't like that, Oh I have no control over my destiny.
49:36
Speaker 2: This is this is like what happens despite your best actions, right.
49:40
Speaker 2: But so we're all actors in the play. Sometimes we
49:43
Speaker 2: give given a role it's not of our choosing. But
49:46
Speaker 2: the key is to play your given roles well. And
49:49
Speaker 2: you mentioned that earlier on right and and but I
49:52
Speaker 2: really want to surface that for the for the listeners
49:56
Speaker 2: because I had to a couple of years ago go
49:59
Speaker 2: through open heart surgery, or a year and a half ago,
50:01
Speaker 2: because I found by chance, I was born with a
50:03
Speaker 2: dodgy aortic valve, and and and As soon as I
50:08
Speaker 2: got told about that from a cardiologist, straight in my
50:12
Speaker 2: head went, how do I plan my given rule as well?
50:15
Speaker 2: How do I be the best patient that I can be?
50:20
Speaker 2: And it's not about feeling sorry for yourself. It's just like,
50:24
Speaker 2: how do you do this as well as you possibly can?
50:27
Speaker 2: If you're given a shit sandwich from the universe, how
50:30
Speaker 2: do you deal with it as effectively as you possibly can?
50:34
Speaker 1: And that can be your.
50:36
Speaker 2: Kids having a freaking contrum in the middle of the supermarket, right,
50:40
Speaker 2: there's a there's a colleague that's being a dickhead. But
50:44
Speaker 2: this is about applying those stoic principles and those virtues,
50:47
Speaker 2: isn't it on a daily basis?
50:49
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and and and in all of those awful situations
50:53
Speaker 1: there is an appropriate, uh appropriate thing to do and
50:57
Speaker 1: an inappropriate thing to do. And then whatever it is,
51:00
Speaker 1: it affects other people. You know, there are people that
51:02
Speaker 1: depend on me. No matter how much I want to
51:06
Speaker 1: wish that that weren't true or deny that it's true.
51:08
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter if I am an important supervisor or
51:12
Speaker 1: if I have a family. I'm a on all the
51:24
Speaker 1: duties that I have as a citizen and as a
51:28
Speaker 1: part of a community.
51:30
Speaker 2: I think that's worthwhile, just as we come to a close,
51:33
Speaker 2: I think that's really worthwhile emphasizing about the Storks. I mean,
51:36
Speaker 2: they talk so much about nature and part of nature,
51:40
Speaker 2: and what they really mean, I think is that, you know,
51:43
Speaker 2: we are all fabric of the universe. We interact with
51:47
Speaker 2: everything in nature and everything interacts with us. And then
51:50
Speaker 2: when we talk about humans, we're a part of a society.
51:53
Speaker 2: And it's that being being a good citizen is absolutely
51:58
Speaker 2: central to story system, isn't it. And it's it's that
52:01
Speaker 2: whole thing about not just thinking about what everybody can.
52:05
Speaker 1: Do for you.
52:06
Speaker 2: But you know, if you we're all just crying the
52:09
Speaker 2: breakdown of the community, but the stoics would go, well,
52:13
Speaker 2: what the fuck are you going to do about it?
52:15
Speaker 2: You know, first and foremost, rather than pointing fingers and
52:18
Speaker 2: criticizing that person.
52:20
Speaker 1: Are you know, communities have been Yeah, communities have been
52:23
Speaker 1: breaking down for a hot minute. Yeah. There is no
52:26
Speaker 1: period of time where people weren't saying, you know, like
52:30
Speaker 1: woe is our time. It's it's everything's falling apart. That's
52:34
Speaker 1: that's human nature, is you know, I'm not saying that,
52:38
Speaker 1: you know, it's not particularly bad. Now there's blips, you know,
52:42
Speaker 1: but but it the point of that, you know, society
52:45
Speaker 1: is always evolving. It is never it's never like static
52:48
Speaker 1: and it's just it's just stopped there. And this idea
52:52
Speaker 1: that you know, society sucks and you know our values
52:55
Speaker 1: are falling apart and all this that's that's that's life,
52:58
Speaker 1: you know, and you got it, like said, what are
53:00
Speaker 1: you going to do about it? You know, you're you're
53:02
Speaker 1: a part of this. You're part of this too, So
53:04
Speaker 1: I liken that to. One of the things that frustrates
53:06
Speaker 1: me when I want to ship is when sailors bitch
53:09
Speaker 1: about like, oh, you know, the command is doing this
53:12
Speaker 1: and the command is doing that, Like like when really
53:15
Speaker 1: they want to say that the senior supervisors are making
53:17
Speaker 1: this or that decision, but like, look, guy, you are
53:20
Speaker 1: the command. You were part of this. You you were
53:22
Speaker 1: in this with us. We have a chain command, we
53:24
Speaker 1: have to make decisions, we have to do things a
53:26
Speaker 1: certain way. But there's no there's no the command that
53:28
Speaker 1: is imposing and acting on you. You are in it.
53:31
Speaker 1: You know, you have a role to play and permission
53:34
Speaker 1: granted to do some planning and do some you know,
53:37
Speaker 1: make some recommendations and get involved in how the decisions
53:40
Speaker 1: get made. So yeah, now very po all have a
53:43
Speaker 1: part to contribute.
53:44
Speaker 2: I think that that is for me the fundamental tick
53:49
Speaker 2: art from stoicism, is that we all have a rule
53:52
Speaker 2: to play and all of the relationships and our interactions
53:55
Speaker 2: with everybody in the universe, and and it ease about
53:59
Speaker 2: doing to play, saying you're given real well, and I
54:01
Speaker 2: think stoicism really gives us a guiding light.
54:03
Speaker 1: So I think if you if.
54:05
Speaker 2: You want to be a good human, even if you're
54:08
Speaker 2: not in the military, I can absolutely see how you're
54:11
Speaker 2: Your book and stoicism as a as a warrior philosopher
54:14
Speaker 2: could could have lots of nuggets for people to to
54:18
Speaker 2: take into their personal lives. So I would highly encourage
54:22
Speaker 2: people to to get on Now you as well as
54:24
Speaker 2: having the book, you've got a substack, don't you.
54:27
Speaker 1: That's write articles as well.
54:28
Speaker 2: So where where do we saying people william to find
54:31
Speaker 2: out if this conversation has peaked their interest, and where
54:35
Speaker 2: do we send them to a by the book, be
54:37
Speaker 2: your subsacker or anything else to explore that you.
54:40
Speaker 1: Have, Sure you can. You can just get the book
54:42
Speaker 1: on Amazon. It's called Stoicism as a warrior philosophy. Uh.
54:47
Speaker 1: And the substack is just if you if you look
54:51
Speaker 1: on substack for me, William C. Spears, you know, you'll
54:54
Speaker 1: you'll find it. It's it's called it's basically a substack
54:57
Speaker 1: called Stoicism and military service. And and I'm writing about
55:01
Speaker 1: you know, there's lots of people writing on stoicism. I'm
55:03
Speaker 1: the only one that's really writing on Stoicism and the
55:05
Speaker 1: military from a military perspective. Uh. And so that I
55:08
Speaker 1: feel like that's a niche that I can feel well.
55:11
Speaker 1: And you know, the book, the book gets a lot
55:13
Speaker 1: of really good feedback. There's there's lots of good reviews
55:15
Speaker 1: out there on it and everything. So you know, i'd
55:17
Speaker 1: encourage people to check it out very cold.
55:19
Speaker 2: I will certainly be checking it out, mean because I've
55:21
Speaker 2: I've got got a keen interest in this stuff. So
55:24
Speaker 2: thank you for the work that you do and keep
55:28
Speaker 2: inspiring people. All right, thank you very much, Paul. Really
55:31
Speaker 2: glad to be here.