Latest / The Dr. Psych Mom Show with clinical psychologist Dr. Samantha Rodman Whiten / The Sliding Window Algorithm And Empathic Ruptures!

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The Sliding Window Algorithm And Empathic Ruptures! · The Dr. Psych Mom Show with clinical psychologist Dr. Samantha Rodman Whiten

• 0:05
  Hi everybody, and welcome to the dr.
• 0:07
  Psych mom show, today, I'm going to be talking about when you're
• 0:11
  upset because your spouse does not wait the data, that is more
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  recent in your behavior. Then older data.
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  Particularly if you have undergone, some dramatic
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  behavioral shift from your perspective, you've changed a
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  lot, but they continue to think that the old Behavior prior to
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  your change in perception should be weighted equally to the more
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  recent Sent data and there is little math analogy or computer
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  science analogy. I have that I was taught by a
• 0:41
  client. For those of you who are
• 0:43
  inclined to think that way before we get to that, I want to
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  tell you to subscribe. The most recent subscriber
• 0:51
  episode was on, when you do not realize your parents were
• 0:54
  dysfunctional until long. After you reach adulthood and
• 0:58
  how perceiving your family as more healthy than they really
• 1:02
  were, can really screw you? Up in terms of later
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  relationships, because you're emulating people, that when you
• 1:10
  think about it you really shouldn't be emulating as much
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  as you may love them. All right?
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  So moving on to this topic. So a lot of times when people
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  have changed. So for example, let's talk about
• 1:23
  anger. That's like a common one.
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  So, let's say that somebody was angry for many years and it was
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  a symptom of depression or it was what they modeled from their
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  parents growing up, or they just didn't Really think about it as
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  abnormal. And then eventually they realize
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  that their anger was a problem and they started therapy, or
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  they started meditating or they went on an antidepressant,
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  whatever. And they've really stopped
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  reacting with yelling and anger, but then when we were in couples
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  counseling, or for people who aren't in couples counseling,
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  when they're just talking, the spouse, always brings up the
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  times that they had been angry and scary.
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  Even though those are years ago and the person has changed since
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  then, in really has not had an episode That in a while.
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  So my client told me about the sliding window method in
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  computer science where there's ways to wait the data, such that
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  the older data is weighted less than the more recent data and
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  that is thought to give a more accurate perspective and picture
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  of the data. And I thought that, you know,
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  this was a good analogy for other people as well that they
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  could understand why this isn't exactly.
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  Exactly. Fair to be blaming a spouse as
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  much for previous data from a long time ago from before A
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  Behavior change as recent data, right?
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  And it is a good analogy and it makes you understand why this is
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  not accurate because it really isn't, you know, it shouldn't be
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  rather. So, the way that, you know, your
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  husband acted 10 years ago, even if it was terrible and maybe
• 3:02
  you'll say, well, why should I forgive that asshole?
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  Here, I'm a talking about forgiving I'm talking about when
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  you and we'll talk about that in the in a bit because that deals
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  with empathic rupture resolution, which is its own
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  topic. And I have podcasts about
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  empathic ruptures, but if you are trying to say to espouse
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  here is why I do not trust you because at any moment in the
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  future, you can do X, then the spouse really gets mad.
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  If x is something that they've been working on, you know, the
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  spouse is like, listen X was how I Acted before I changed in
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  recent years, you don't have any any proof that I'm going to act
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  this way again. So if you're trying to predict
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  my behavior, coming up, Based on data, please use my most recent
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  data and weight that more heavily in this equation, right?
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  And that makes a lot. A lot of sense.
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  Unfortunately, people are not always rational actors and in
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  fact are never really rational actors particularly, if they're
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  people who think they're really rational actors.
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  They're just really kind of, you know, minimizing the impact of
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  their emotion and they have even less objectivity and awareness
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  of how emotions are impacting them.
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  So the reality is there needs to be a compromise between both
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  people and they both need to be understanding one another's
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  perspective. So yes, you can definitely
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  understand objectively. The perspective of somebody who
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  has tried to change and would now like recent data to be
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  weighted more heavily in your predictions of what they're
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  going to do next. And I'm, you can understand
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  that, I think I've explained it pretty well.
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  You know, despite not being a math person, this is a fairly
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  intuitive concept, right? However, the other person, the
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  person who is, who is mad, that they are being predicted to act
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  like an asshole in the future based on, you know, distal data,
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  right. That person needs to understand
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  that empathic ruptures are real and the person is not thinking,
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  like a computer. They are, they are I've been
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  traumatized by actions in the past and you can't really apply
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  some sort of numerical, you know, equation to this.
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  Because the reality is there are certain things that the person
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  is viewing as a trauma and they are coded in a different part of
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  the brain, the brain reserved for trauma.
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  You know, the parts the basically, in trauma work, what
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  we do is we try to to get the trauma memory to be encoded,
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  really in a different part of the brain in a more Or in the
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  frontal lobe, as part of a objective Narrative of the
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  person's life. When in reality trauma, memories
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  are coated in a different place. That's why they frequently come
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  out as nightmares and as flashbacks and they're more
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  visual, you know, and people need to process and resolve.
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  These traumatic empathic ruptures in order to move
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  forward. And then to be cleared to see
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  things more objectively. So if a woman never gets Really
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  process, let's say the time that the man threw something at her
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  out of anger, and she felt scared for her life.
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  If she can never process that and grieve it, and he doesn't
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  really own it and he apologizes briefly because he's so ashamed.
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  But he doesn't really sit there with her feelings about it.
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  Then how can she be expected to just move forward, like a
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  computer and say, okay, well, he hasn't really done anything like
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  that for five years now. Yeah.
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  Okay, she can say it. And if she staying That
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  information is probably the reason that she's staying, but
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  it doesn't mean that when she looks at him.
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  Some part of her, brain doesn't light up with a fear signal,
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  right? And that she doesn't still view
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  him as potentially dangerous because those trauma memories
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  have been encoded in a different part of the brain and she views
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  him as dangerous and unsafe. So we got to get to a place
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  where both people can understand the other person's perspective,
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  things men, especially always come up with these smart
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  analogies that are very objective.
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  And that involve economics, or in this this way, computer
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  science or math or whatever. And I like these analogies, they
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  help me speak to other males. But the point is that women are
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  always like, yeah, but I don't work like that.
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  Like, that isn't really how I think because I still am scared.
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  Cause of these same things. And quite honestly, you've never
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  really empathize with me or validated my experience when you
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  did use to act this way and that's really the key to moving
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  forward. So the key to moving forward on
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  one hand yes you got to amass more more data points of you
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  acting in the healthy way. Sure.
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  And only time can do that though.
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  Like you can't like get all of those interactions into like,
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  you know, 10 minutes and they compensate for 10 years.
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  As of dysfunction. So you got to have another you
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  know few years in front of you. Right.
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  But it's like with repair after infidelity you can't be like hey
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  shit, I've been faithful since Tuesday.
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  Why is this bitch still complaining?
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  I mean it's like what what are you talking about?
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  You know, the time time is going to heal you have to be shown
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  over time to be faithful you know but also their needs to be
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  and you could go back to my podcasts on empathic ruptures
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  and how to resolve, but there needs to be a lot of
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  understanding that the person Not a robot and they need you to
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  deeply understand and validate and empathize with how scared
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  they were or how upset they were or how betrayed they were.
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  And if you haven't done your own work internally in therapy and
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  your ego is still pretty fragile and you can't handle anything
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  perceived as negative feedback or criticism.
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  You're not going to be good at this.
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  You're going to get defensive and you're going to get ashamed
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  and you're going to shut them down and say that was then and
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  this is now and then they aren't going to do any waiting of any
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  day. Data because they hate you, you
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  know. And so what you need to do is
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  understand that if you want your spouse to really perceive you as
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  a changed person, a primary way that you can show that you're a
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  changed person is by being non-defensive and going back and
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  listening truly to how they felt at the time that you behaved in
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  the unhealthy ways that you did and really sitting there as long
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  as it needs for them to tell you the story.
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  And saying I am so sorry. I have never really pictured it
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  from your perspective. It sounds terrible.
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  I would feel the same as you do. If I were you in that situation
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  and I completely understand why you don't trust me.
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  And for the people who can say, things like that, sincerely.
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  It's a is a game-changer that validation and empathy does a
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  thousand times more than any number of iterations of better
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  Behavior. In, you know, in the, in the in
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  the life span of your marriage, so you could have behaved bad,
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  let's say three times and then behaved good three thousand
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  times, but if those three times involved something super
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  traumatic, then you really still have to own it.
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  You know, you have to own it, these all things that you do in
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  a marriage and I'm sure this is no big Epiphany.
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  All things you do or not. Of equal valence, you know, I
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  mean, it's like, my constant example, of empathic ruptures
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  is, when the man leaves after the baby was born to go, get his
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  sleep back at home, and she's shocked and feels alone and
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  Abandoned, and can barely verbalize it because she's
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  sitting there, right? After giving birth, and then he
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  leaves, he goes home, he gets a night sleep.
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  He comes back. And it's never the same, right?
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  And so he could say, but I've missed so much sleep for her.
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  I've been the one to pick up the kids at their late events.
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  Now, Now and I do all of this, I take red-eye flights back from
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  California from work because I don't want to leave her alone
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  with the kids for too long. I have sacrificed Sleep Time
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  After Time After Time. Yeah.
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  But all those times weren't the birth of a child, you know.
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  So so you could say, why your we like, you know, why is our
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  algorithm messed up? And we're waiting, you know,
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  long ago data more than recent data.
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  You have a point but you also probably have not ever really
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  been there to empathize and validate and resolve the key
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  rupture that made that data point, so important to her,
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  because it wasn't just another night of sleep to her.
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  And there's no other ways to really make up for it, unless
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  you truly understand and help her process and grieve what
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  happened and I'm saying her, either the vendors can be
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  inverted. But the reality, the truth of
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  the matter is that women tend to want more deep verbal processing
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  and empathizing of past ruptures.
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  Men, truly do believe more in the sliding window algorithm and
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  and if a woman said, you know what, we had a celibate couple
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  of years, but I'm DTF every night from now on.
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  You know, you remember, DTF from the Jersey Shore down to F.
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  But if The man would say thank God.
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  Great, awesome. Let's get into the bedroom
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  women. It's not the same way.
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  So as I say frequently to people who struggle with how one,
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  gender usually interact. I say listen do you want to stay
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  heterosexual? Yes.
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  All right. Good.
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  Then this is what we got to deal with.
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  So, if there was an empathic rupture with your wife, in which
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  you really understand that you kind of behave like a shit, then
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  you should say, listen, I know, I've been trying to show you
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  that I'm different now, but maybe I never really listened
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  and apologize. Deeply invalidated the
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  experience of maybe if we talked about it again and you really
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  hear that, I'm sorry it will help tell it to me.
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  Women will fall down, they really will be up.
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  She'll fall down of shop to have you say I would like to hear
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  again about how I hurt you and this this is why it's such a
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  game changer because it shows such a paradigm shift instead of
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  being defensive. You're actually saying, let's
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  talk about it. Let's Julie, talked about the
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  time that I went home. How did you feel?
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  I'm trying to get them trying to really understand why this is so
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  bad for you and honestly, you probably will after she after
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  she explains it. And that is will be, you know,
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  that will be weighted more than even the recent data.
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  If you can truly resolved that empathic rupture which is
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  something that couples counselor can help with.
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  If you're like, man, I ain't no expert.
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  I'm not going into the lions den.
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  What do I look like a Roman gladiator to you?
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  I will never survive that. Well, then you should be going
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  to couples counseling, where you have somebody who can go through
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  the empathic ruptures with you and help you, you know, and at
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  that point, if the woman sees that you really, really are
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  trying to deeply understand and resolve these past hurts.
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  She will I believe and I've seen it happen.
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  Start waiting your more recent data, a hell of a lot more just
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  as she supposed to because then she will not have anything in
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  her mind that saying if you move on that, I will never ever
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  understand how you felt at that time of trauma.
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  And that is a subconscious desire that a lot of people have
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  and you could frame it as punishing or the person or you
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  could frame it as, totally normal way that people don't
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  want to get hurt again. By something that again, in
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  their mind has an unusually high weight.
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  You know, the coefficient is way high, even if it was 10 years
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  ago, so coefficient of a million versus yesterday, whatever you
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  did write as a coefficient Efficient of point one, you know
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  and so I can just mess up math all over but you see my point
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  hopefully. All right, so hopefully you
• 15:08
  found this useful. I really do think that if you at
• 15:12
  all think that there has been an unresolved empathic rupture that
• 15:15
  you should bring it up to your spouse and be like maybe I have
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  not been fair. I have thought that people are
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  very rational linear thinkers and I have not understood the
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  role of brain processing and emotion processing and the end.
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  Holding the differential and coding of traumatic memories in
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  the brain. Really?
• 15:32
  You could read the body, keeps the score.
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  That would be a good thing to read.
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  It's a classic by bezel Van Der kolk the body keeps the score.
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  It's about trauma so it can help you understand.
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  A lot of how trauma is encoded differently.
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  And you may be like trauma there's people who go through
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  combat. I went home to go to sleep.
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  Yeah, big shit. If that's still how you're
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  thinking, not only do you need to read Bessel Vander kolk, but
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  you probably need to be in therapy because there's
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  something called subjectivity. And when people think that there
• 15:58
  is Isn't is when they seemed truly like, you know, robots and
• 16:03
  no woman wants to be close to a robot except there was a movie.
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  I read I saw but I can't do spoiler.
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  It was it was a perfect, male robot.
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  But anyway I this is a beyond the tangent so I'll talk to you
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  guys later. Bye.