Latest / Pretty In Pink Again / Episode 77: Why Won’t My Kid Sleep? Bedtime Battles, Night Wakings & Sleep Without the Guilt with Pediatric Sleep Consultant Samantha Day

Transcript

Episode 77: Why Won’t My Kid Sleep? Bedtime Battles, Night Wakings & Sleep Without the Guilt with Pediatric Sleep Consultant Samantha Day · Pretty In Pink Again

• 0:00
  I'm Christina.
• 0:01
  And I'm Tee.
• 0:02
  And this is the Pretty in Pink Again podcast.
• 0:04
  Where motherhood meets rediscovery Welcome back to Pretty in Pink again.
• 0:19
  Today's episode is one I have been so excited to record, because if you know me, you know sleep is basically my passion.
• 0:26
  I need a lot of it, my kids need a lot of it, and I've spent an embarrassing amount of motherhood thinking about naps, bedtime, early mornings, night wakings, and whether moving bedtime by 15 minutes is somehow gonna ruin our entire lives.
• 0:39
  But I also know how much sleep affects the entire family.
• 0:42
  When my kids aren't sleeping well, it affects my patience, my mood, my anxiety, and honestly, just how I show up as a mom.
• 0:49
  So today, we're so excited to talk to pediatric sleep consultant Samantha Day about sleep from infancy through the teenage years.
• 0:58
  We're getting into what kids actually need, what's normal, what might be a red flag, bedtime battles, early waking, sleep training, and what to do if you feel like you've tried everything.
• 1:09
  But most importantly, we're doing it without the guilt, because sometimes you're not creating a bad habit.
• 1:14
  Sometimes you're just an exhausted parent doing whatever it takes to get everyone through the night.
• 1:19
  Samantha, welcome to Pretty in Pink again.
• 1:21
  So we started our podcast, like, a year and a half ago, and this convo has been on my bucket list to talk with an expert for so many reasons.
• 1:29
  We're gonna talk about pediatric sleep, but also how that ends up kind of feeding into parent sleep, right?
• 1:36
  I struggled.
• 1:37
  I had two very different experiences and two very different kids in terms of sleep.
• 1:42
  I had a sleeper right off the bat, my son, where I basically just followed a timeline as a guide, and everything clicked into place.
• 1:50
  He was sleeping the amount of hours per week old he was.
• 1:54
  So six weeks old, he was sleeping six-hour stretches, and I was giving myself the biggest pat on the back.
• 2:00
  Like, I can't believe everyone has such a hard time with this.
• 2:04
  You just follow a guide, and it was so easy.
• 2:07
  And then I was so humbled the second time around with my daughter.
• 2:11
  We did not have her fully sleeping through the night until after she was a year old, so I was eating my words, and so I've had two different experiences, and I know this is just such a huge topic, so we're gonna dive into everything.
• 2:23
  And you're an expert, so we can't wait to get into this with you and unpack it all.
• 2:27
  And I'm excited to talk to you because I have older kids, so now I went through the whole sleep-training phase.
• 2:34
  And then we dove into their independence and their elementary school years when they started to get that fear base.
• 2:40
  And now I have a 13-year-old sometimes sleeping in my room.
• 2:43
  So I would love for you to kinda take us through all the ages.
• 2:47
  We're excited to have you here.
• 2:48
  You are not just a sleep trainer.
• 2:50
  You are a sleep teacher, so we are ready to be taught.
• 2:53
  Absolutely.
• 2:54
  When you were saying there that it was, you know, one years old before your second was sleeping through the night, in my head I thought, that's actually really early compared to a lot of families.
• 3:03
  Which I'm sure those 365 days plus- Oh were difficult.
• 3:07
  But also it's so common to see five years old that we haven't slept through the night.
• 3:11
  I even had a 12-year-old, uh, last year that I had worked with that had never slept through the night.
• 3:16
  So it really is something that is a huge topic that I want all parents to know is possible.
• 3:21
  Yeah, and I think there's a lot of shame around it too.
• 3:24
  Like, if your baby is not sleeping through the night, you feel like you're doing something wrong as the parent because I feel like you can get some judgment or feedback from other people like,"Oh, is he sleeping through the night yet?" Like it's some sort of gold star that you get, and if they're not, if that's not happening, it's a huge impact on you and the kids.
• 3:42
  I feel like sleep is the first humbling experience as a parent because everything in motherhood falls back on you, and if you're not teaching it and you're not modeling, it's your fault.
• 3:51
  And I feel like sleep is the first thing you try to teach your kids, how to eat and how to sleep.
• 3:55
  So if you don't feel like you're doing that right, then it's like you're off to a really rough start absolutely, but the opposite is true as well.
• 4:01
  So you're dealing with that feedback from people, like,"Oh my gosh, your baby's not sleeping through the night?" But the opposite is true, especially on social media where people are like did you sleep train?
• 4:11
  'Cause I didn't sleep train." And there's, like, boats of how parents, you know, what, what island they jump on it.
• 4:17
  Do I like to sleep train?
• 4:18
  Do I not?
• 4:18
  Am I okay with cry it out?
• 4:20
  Am I not?
• 4:20
  And so a lot of times, whether your child is sleeping through the night or not, we have this shame associated with it, especially in the world of social media.
• 4:29
  So one of my biggest things is cutting through all of that and being like, we need sleep.
• 4:34
  Our bodies were designed to sleep, and we can figure out a way to do that that fits your parenting style and your child's personality.
• 4:41
  And that's kind of the big thing is a lot of people think it's cry it out or nothing.
• 4:45
  Either you have to close the door and let your baby cry or your toddler cry until they fall asleep, or you have to co-sleep and snuggle them all night long, and there's so much gray area in the middle.
• 4:55
  We just have to figure out which one fits your family.
• 4:58
  I also feel like it's which one fits the kid.
• 5:01
  'Cause like with me, mine were two polar opposite experiences.
• 5:04
  So I love that there are sort of like different methods where you can kind of figure this out, and it's a lot of trial and error.
• 5:11
  But I wanna start back with you.
• 5:13
  Can you tell us a little bit about yourself, your degree, how you got into this, your pediatric sleep certification, and all the credentials?
• 5:21
  And I love that you are a behavior specialist So first of all, thank you.
• 5:26
  I'm super excited to chat with you guys and hang out today.
• 5:29
  So my name is Samantha Day, and I originally was a special education teacher, and my degree is in is in pediatric behavior.
• 5:40
  So for a long time, I would partner with families on the behavioral side of things with children, and I was an autism specialist for a while back in the day.
• 5:49
  And long story short, when I had my son, who's- will be 14 in a couple of weeks, he was kind of as you were describing your second.
• 5:58
  Like, sleep was not the easiest thing in the world, and I'm a pretty easygoing person, but I need sleep, and anybody that knows me knows that that is the case.
• 6:07
  So I expected a period of time that was age appropriate where we would be up a lot, but it lasted longer than I anticipated it would.
• 6:15
  And so what I realized really quickly was that my behavioral training actually served quite a purpose in that sleep side of things because we have to know how our bodies work and, you know, what pediatric sleep could look like, what's age appropriate.
• 6:32
  But there's also behavioral component in that where as parents, we're communicating and guiding our little ones with our actions as well, like when we pick them up and when we don't, how they're falling asleep at the start of the night.
• 6:43
  Sometimes are we feeding them?
• 6:45
  Sometimes are we rocking them?
• 6:46
  There's a behavioral guidance component there.
• 6:49
  So skipping some details, I realized quickly that using my behavioral background with my son, he was sleeping really well.
• 6:56
  And I was at the age where all my friends were also having babies, and they were like,"Sam, how is your baby sleeping?
• 7:02
  And mine's not." So it really just started off as me being like,"Well, try this and maybe try that." But it worked, and so all of my friends started coming to me, and then they would tell their friends, and they would tell their friends.
• 7:14
  And I got to a place where I was like, I love this, and I didn't even really know it was a thing.
• 7:20
  But I connected with seeing a tired family, and then all of a sudden they'd call me and be like,"We slept 12 hours last night." And I got to celebrate with them.
• 7:28
  So at that point, I decided to go back to school.
• 7:31
  So I went back to school and I got my certification in pediatric sleep and learned the scientific side of how we sleep, why we sleep, how much sleep we need, and so on.
• 7:40
  And then I was able to merge the two together, and I think that potentially that's why I've been able to partner with as many families as I have, is because there's a, a lot of sleep consultants out there.
• 7:52
  But oftentimes we're looking at the just that sleep side of things, and I believe that the behavioral side is even bigger than the sleep side.
• 7:59
  So partnering those two things together, I was able to start my business 11 years ago now.
• 8:05
  And I have partnered with a couple thousand families one-on-one, and then I have a parenting podcast and, and other ways that I've connected with families that maybe I haven't even met, courses and things like that.
• 8:16
  But I'm super blessed to be able to be partnering with a lot of families.
• 8:20
  And what's funny is oftentimes it's the third kid or the fourth kid that people reach out to me about.
• 8:27
  It's not always the first.
• 8:29
  So kind of like you were saying you know, maybe your second kiddo or so on will be the one to like throw a wrench in what's going on.
• 8:36
  Well, I think that that's a good q- that's kind of like a good question to kick this off with, along with our million other questions that we're gonna ask you.
• 8:43
  Because I think with the first one, and I'm sure this happens a lot of the time with the first one, you expect to be in this sleep deprivation state, both for the baby and for yourself, and then there's no real guide on how long that should be for, right?
• 8:56
  It's up to the kid, really.
• 8:57
  And it's completely dependent on the families, what you're willing to do.
• 9:01
  And so I guess what would you think is a timeline for when a family should seek somebody like you?
• 9:07
  So I'm gonna say to be as proactive as possible.
• 9:11
  So it's much easier to guide and lay a foundation to the sleep skills that we want than it is to rewind and take back some of the skills that maybe we don't want that have naturally created.
• 9:24
  And so ideal situation is if we have a pregnant mama out there, let's start figuring out what this looks like from the start knowing that age appropriately, we're not sleeping 12 hours when we're born, but what can we do to lay that foundation from the beginning?
• 9:40
  And then, i- we have this three-month period of time that I would consider infant-infant as far as sleep goes, and there's a lot of variation.
• 9:49
  There's a lot of night wakings.
• 9:50
  We need night feeds.
• 9:52
  All of those things are possible.
• 9:53
  And then when we approach about the four-month mark is when a lot changes internally.
• 9:59
  Around four months is when babies start to produce melatonin, which is going to assist in that skill of falling asleep and staying asleep.
• 10:06
  We also, around the four-month mark, can start reaching a place where we can learn the skill of falling asleep independently, which is huge and kind of puts all those puzzle pieces together if guided properly.
• 10:18
  So if I had a brand-new mom and they asked me at what age, at what timeline, I would say,"Let's start now when you're pregnant," right?
• 10:27
  But my other answer to that is it is never, ever too late, and it is always crucial to prioritize sleep.
• 10:35
  So if you have a mom listening to this with a three-year-old who is not sleeping through the night, I would say,"Let's get started right now.
• 10:43
  We can come up with a plan that fits your family, and we can make this happen, because not only are you tired, Mama, and you tired, Dad, but your baby, your toddler needs that sleep as well for their growth, their development, their behavior, everything." And like I said, I, I've worked with a 12-year-old as the oldest that I ever partnered with who had never slept through the night, and it just becomes more and more critical as we get older to prioritize and reach those sleep skills.
• 11:09
  So timeline-wise is as early as possible, but it's never too late.
• 11:13
  Do you think that every child needs the same amount of sleep?
• 11:16
  Because I hear some people say,"My kid just doesn't need that much sleep." So is that a thing?
• 11:22
  And also, how do the sleep needs change as the babies progress from that newborn baby, toddler, school age, teen years?
• 11:32
  so there is definitely an age-appropriate range that's gonna change in different stages.
• 11:36
  So what we need at three months old is totally different than what we need at four months, and that's only a month apart.
• 11:43
  There's also what we need at four months is very different than at a year old or at three years old, so it's gonna continue to change as we get older.
• 11:51
  And then there's this period in teenage years where we need more sleep than...
• 11:55
  It's almost like we go back to infancy, and we have te- teenagers that just wanna sleep in till, you know, 11 o'clock or noon.
• 12:02
  And then we're gonna go b- to our adult years, where we need less than a child would.
• 12:07
  So but it is an average, so it's easy for me to say, let's pick a two-year-old.
• 12:14
  It's easy for me to say, like, we need between 10 and 12 hours of sleep overnight, and no matter the situation or no matter the child, I want to be in that range.
• 12:25
  There are variables in there, like some two-year-olds are taking a three-hour nap, and some are only taking an hour and a half nap, and they might be getting exactly what they need individually.
• 12:35
  So we have a range, but we absolutely have to be in that range because there is an epidemic of children who are not getting the right amount of sleep.
• 12:46
  And I'll say one more thing to that question is when we're not getting enough sleep, we reach an overtired level that makes it seem like we don't need sleep.
• 12:57
  So then you have, let's say, that two-year-old who is only sleeping seven hours at night, wakes up raring to go at 5:00 AM, and looks completely rested.
• 13:08
  We're, you know, running circles around the house when really the opposite is true.
• 13:12
  The more overtired we are, the more awake and like a second wind we may look like we have.
• 13:18
  Tired and wired is a perfect way to describe it.
• 13:20
  So we have a lot of kids out there where we might think they just don't really have the same sleep needs as other kids, and then I'm able to partner with them, and all of a sudden we're getting 12 hours of sleep overnight and a three-hour nap, and parents are like,"What in the world just happened?" It's so interesting that you said that too, because with my daughter, she was a colicky baby, and colic, you know, there's like a variety of different reasons, but it's a baby screaming for longer than they should be, right, per day.
• 13:46
  And what I was finding, I think a lot of the root of that was that she was exhausted to the bone because she wasn't sleeping, she wasn't developing the skills that she needed to put herself to sleep and then back to sleep.
• 13:58
  She needed a lot of help from me, and I think that it ended up becoming like a very vicious cycle where she was just so overtired that sleep was even harder for her to come by, and then it was just like feeding itself.
• 14:11
  And then when she started to be able to have the skills to put herself to sleep, it connected all the dots almost immediately, and she became like the happiest little girl I've ever met in my life and I think a lot of it was just that she was missing so much sleep, and her body needed it.
• 14:26
  And so to your point, a lot of people were saying to me, like,"Well, maybe she's just somebody that doesn't need a lot of sleep." But then when she started to actually sleep, she was a completely different baby.
• 14:36
  So it's interesting.
• 14:37
  It connected the naps.
• 14:39
  Like she was someone that barely napped, and then once she started sleeping through the night, she was actually that baby taking the three-hour nap in the middle of the day.
• 14:47
  So it was like sleep equals more sleep.
• 14:50
  It was insane I love that you brought that up because it is so common for people to think that.
• 14:55
  And a lot of times older generations will say things like,"Maybe they don't need that much sleep," or like,"It's okay." The- all these recommendations that were popular a long time ago, but we know a lot more now than we did then when it comes to the science of sleep.
• 15:10
  So recommendations have changed a ton.
• 15:12
  One more thing on that as well is it is very common for us to see feeding issues associated with sleep issues.
• 15:20
  So, uh, sometimes I'll have parents come to me and we have an underweight baby or one that's not taking enough calories or ounces during the day, and a lot of times it connects to either how overtired they are or that they're taking so much during overnight, waking up and taking so much milk, that at, in the daytime they're like,"I'm good.
• 15:39
  I don't need any food." So we think that sleep is just sleep, but sleep is connected to how we're eating during the day and what- Yeah our behavior is.
• 15:47
  Yeah.
• 15:47
  All, everything.
• 15:48
  And if you think about that as an adult too, like When you're exhausted, how much that throws off your entire life.
• 15:54
  And also, like, when you live like that for prolonged periods of time, it's so hard to undo it.
• 16:00
  Right.
• 16:01
  Everything is off.
• 16:01
  Your eating is off, your mood is off, your patience, your energy, everything.
• 16:04
  So it's, you need to remind yourself that your child is just a little baby going through the same things- Yeah, yeah that you're going through as an adult.
• 16:11
  So Samantha, where do we start?
• 16:13
  Take us through the stages.
• 16:14
  Infancy, toddler, elementary school-age kids who have really never learned to sleep independently.
• 16:19
  What do we look at first?
• 16:21
  So everything is super individualized, and that's how I want it to be.
• 16:25
  So I usually will start with a really short call where I'm interviewing them, because I want to ask 100 questions and take a bunch of notes and figure out where do we need to start for this family.
• 16:37
  But age has a lot to do with that.
• 16:38
  So if I have, uh, kind of like we said earlier, if I have a pregnant mom or a mom with a baby three months or under, we're gonna be talking about laying the foundation and just doing the things we can do right now.
• 16:49
  So avoiding day and night confusion, making sure we're not sleeping too much during the day even though we need naps, and that could be taking away from nighttime.
• 16:58
  Making sure we're getting the proper amount of food during the day.
• 17:01
  Um, how do we respond?
• 17:03
  How do we experiment a little bit with independence while also being there for our newly infant babies?
• 17:09
  So that's kind of the things we would talk about.
• 17:11
  It's more informational and laying a foundation at that age.
• 17:14
  But four months and up, we're gonna be looking for where are we at right now as far as how are we falling asleep at the start of the night, and then how many night wakings are we seeing?
• 17:26
  Those are the two kind of first questions that I would ask, and they, the answers to those two things are gonna really tell me a lot about where our goals need to be.
• 17:37
  So that's kind of the big question really four months through about five years old.
• 17:42
  There's gonna be other differing factors if we have a nine-month-old versus a four-year-old, but that's going to be my first question no matter what, is how do we fall asleep at the start of the night?
• 17:53
  Because how we do that really determines how we're able to go back to sleep in the middle of the night when we naturally wake up.
• 18:01
  Falling asleep and going back to sleep is the same skill, right?
• 18:04
  It's a behavioral pattern, like we were talking about earlier, and the easiest time to learn the skill of falling asleep independently is at bedtime.
• 18:12
  If you look at our, the way our sleep hormones are, bedtime is going to be the time that we want to learn it.
• 18:18
  Some people start to experiment at naps.
• 18:20
  We don't wanna do that.
• 18:21
  Naps are harder to fall asleep for.
• 18:23
  So we start that skill at bedtime when the parents are ready to do that, and then we're gonna continue using that in the middle of the night when we're ready.
• 18:31
  But yes, Christina, like you said, if we're assisted to sleep at the start of the night when it's technically the easiest time to learn, then we're gonna wake up at 2:00 a.m.
• 18:42
  and we're not gonna stay drowsy but awake,'cause a lot of pe- you probably have heard that, right?
• 18:47
  But when we wake up at 2:00 a.m.
• 18:49
  or 4:00 a.m., we don't stay drowsy.
• 18:51
  We wake ourselves all the way up, and now we don't have the skills to go from completely awake to all the way back to sleep, and it's harder to return back to sleep at 4:00 a.m.
• 19:02
  than it is at 8:00 at night or whatever time bedtime is.
• 19:05
  So that is probably the biggest thing that I would be talking about is how are we falling asleep and how can we guide some new skills in that area if we're not doing it independently yet.
• 19:17
  It really is a learned behavior that some kids naturally do without much guidance, but the majority have to learn and then see our way of responding and guiding them when they do wake up Do you think a lot of the issues then stem from the parents' behavior in that scenario?
• 19:34
  She's asking for a friend I kindly and lovingly say, we are the problem.
• 19:39
  But also, there's no rule book, and there are way too many recommendations that all contradict each other- in this stage of parenting.
• 19:50
  So you've got one parent telling you,"Do not let your baby s- cry a single tear.
• 19:55
  Pick'em up, rock'em, do whatever you have to do." Then you have another parent that's like,"Go in there and close the door.
• 20:00
  They'll be fine.
• 20:00
  You'll see him in the morning." And then e- every other specific recommendation, even from sleep consultant to sleep consultant, can vary.
• 20:09
  I've had a lot of people come to me after working with a very well-known consultant that are like,"I tried the timing recommendations and they're not working," like when we should be napping or when bedtime should be, et cetera.
• 20:23
  And they'll come to me and I'm like,"Let's tweak this timing and that timing, and then hopefully things fall into place." They usually do.
• 20:30
  But yes, it can very much vary, and it, it often comes from a place of love, but confusion as the parents.
• 20:38
  How often do we go and ask for advice oftentimes on social media?
• 20:43
  Nowadays, either on AI or on a parenting group, or even like around the table at a girls' lunch that we're having, we might be like,"Ugh, how did you get your baby to sleep?" And then we have seven different recommendations and we go,"I'll try this one.
• 20:57
  I'll try that one." And then at that point, your kiddo's so confused that even if it's a good recommendation, it's probably not gonna work.
• 21:04
  It's almost too much information.
• 21:06
  I feel like we're the generation with almost too much information.
• 21:09
  And you think that knowledge is power, but it starts to feel like it's backfiring when there's so much conflicting information and you don't know what to do.
• 21:19
  And you're not really even giving it enough time.
• 21:21
  I was somebody that would try something out for a night or two, and then if it wasn't working, I would move on to the next thing.
• 21:27
  And so it was probably my behavior that was causing a lot of the friction and a lot of the sleepless nights for basically my entire family.
• 21:35
  Right.
• 21:36
  I think knowledge is only helpful when you kind of almost get those, like, instant results.
• 21:40
  And if you're not getting sleep, you're not getting results, then you're gonna try something else, and try something else, and try something else.
• 21:46
  So by the time a parent comes to you, I imagine they're pretty desperate.
• 21:50
  How do you coach a mom who is already sleep-deprived, and how do you coach her to actually execute a plan?
• 21:57
  Because I love an expert- Mm but I am so bad at the execution of the expert's plan.
• 22:02
  When a mom is barely functioning and consistency is already hard, how are we supposed to execute this sleep plan?
• 22:11
  yeah.
• 22:11
  So I think that maybe is why we have prolonged periods of time of not sleeping because we as the parents are so tired that we're just in survival mode, and we just keep doing whatever to get through to the next day.
• 22:24
  But oftentimes, parents that come to me have reached a place where they're like,"Something has to change, and I know I'm gonna have to sacrifice and maybe get a tiny bit more tired before we reach our goals." But if we can talk and I oftentimes, I think'cause I'm a mom as well, I connect emotionally and just explain the benefits that are gonna come to our babies, and then in return come to us by teaching and guiding these new skills.
• 22:51
  So you could say the same in the fitness w- world.
• 22:53
  If you, if we had fitness goals or eating healthier or whatever, it kinda sucks at first to set those goals and get into the routine, but then we start feeling good, and we see the results that we're wanting.
• 23:05
  It's kinda the same thing as we're in survival.
• 23:07
  We know it's gonna suck, but we're gonna set the goals, and I kinda just kinda present it that way, and then your child's gonna benefit, which motivates us as the mom.
• 23:17
  And then you're gonna sleep, too, and then we have double motivation.
• 23:20
  So it's just kind of a mindset shift and like,"Okay, let's do this," and then we partner, and we get it done.
• 23:26
  So we taught our kids how to sleep through the night when they were babies, infants, you know, those early toddler years.
• 23:31
  And then they entered this new part of life where they started to develop these almost fears and anxieties of being left alone in their room.
• 23:40
  And for my kids, it sort of started when they were in elementary school, and they started to develop these fears and anxieties of being left alone in their room.
• 23:48
  And that was a whole other era of sleepless nights.
• 23:50
  And arguably, this was a little trickier because they were even mobile at this point, where they could get out, run down the hall,"I don't wanna be in here." They were quite vocal.
• 23:58
  So how do you help this age group?
• 24:00
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 24:02
  But I wanna rewind a little bit on that- Okay as far as age goes.
• 24:06
  Because when you're talking about, developing new fears and kind of that, that kind of sleep behavior, we usually see that around two to three years old.
• 24:15
  And then it- Okay can continue into early elementary school.
• 24:18
  But it is more common at two, three, four years old- Yeah to start seeing some of those expressions.
• 24:24
  And there's a portion of that could actually be fear-based, and be like,"Oh, this is different, and I don't like the lights off," or whatever the case is.
• 24:33
  But there's also a portion of that's age-appropriate negotiation.
• 24:37
  "I don't really wanna go to sleep, and what, what behavior can I show in order to get Mom to stay in here longer?" And I don't say that as a manipulation.
• 24:46
  It's just an age-appropriate behavioral pattern of like, ha- what can I say, what dance can I do to get my parents to stay in here or for me to come out of the room more often?
• 25:02
  Having an age appropriate communication where they're trying to see what behavior or what words can I say in order to get you to not make me go to bed, or let me come out of my room.
• 25:13
  And so you'll see things as s- as simple as, like,"I don't like the dark," or,"I don't wanna be alone," which pulls at our mommy heartstrings.
• 25:21
  But you will also see, like,"I gotta go potty.
• 25:24
  I gotta go potty again.
• 25:25
  I gotta go potty again." And they're using that over and over to get out of the room also.
• 25:29
  I mean, I'm over here sleeping and you are just- like loving this right now.
• 25:34
  You are eating this up.
• 25:35
  I, sleep is like my passion project, and I literally could talk about this for like three days.
• 25:41
  I really could.
• 25:42
  but like if you have a good sleep foundation in place and everybody's sleeping, and now they're age appropriately starting to push back on bedtime because now they can, and we start bending, what then happens?
• 25:56
  Does that create a bad pattern again?
• 25:58
  So absolutely that toddler age is going to be filled with some negotiation and some trial and error to try to get you to respond differently than you did before.
• 26:08
  And that can be a really hard one, because now they're way more verbal than we were when we were, you know, toddlers and babies.
• 26:14
  You have way more variables than you did before, and that's super difficult.
• 26:19
  So there's kind of a couple things that I focus on at this age.
• 26:22
  If somebody comes to me and says,"I'm about to go from the crib to a toddler bed, how do I do this in a smooth way so no- not everybody loses their mind?" That's my favorite, because we can proactively do that transition in the smoothest, most supportive way possible.
• 26:37
  But more often than not, I have families come to me that said,"We already switched a month ago, a year ago, three years ago, and we are just running out of our room.
• 26:46
  We're crying every time I put them in there.
• 26:48
  What do I do?" And so there's a couple things that we would talk about here, but it is almost all behaviorally related instead of sleep.
• 26:57
  So we're gonna look at sleep and make sure, like, are we napping and should we still be napping?
• 27:01
  So most of the time you still wanna nap until about three to five years old, which is quite a range.
• 27:07
  It's individual per child.
• 27:09
  But we wanna look at should we still be napping?
• 27:11
  When is bedtime?
• 27:12
  A bedtime that's too late in this four and five-year-old range can really connect to more night wakings, more coming out of the room, early rising.
• 27:22
  So those are things we're looking at on the sleep side.
• 27:25
  But once all those sleep side things are checked, now we're gonna be looking on the behavioral side, which is what kind of bedtime routine is supporting the behavior that we want to see?
• 27:35
  What kind of language from mom and dad to them at bedtime is going to support the behavior we wanna see?
• 27:43
  A lot of times when our kids come to us and say,"I'm scared.
• 27:46
  I don't wanna lay in my room by myself," it is easy and common for us to wanna support through our language, through our vibe and our tone, and say things like,"It's okay.
• 27:56
  Why are you scared?
• 27:57
  Mommy's right over here." And our voice sometimes says that it's not okay if we're not right there.
• 28:04
  And so we take what maybe used to be independent, and then very quickly we can get to the place where they're seeking us right there with them for all of this.
• 28:14
  So we wanna make sure that we're using what I call confidence-building language, where, we acknowledge the fears that they may have and we're there for them, but we can do so in a few different ways that really show them things like you're safe in your house, we're safe in our room, our tone is different, our words are different, and we're not using too many words.
• 28:34
  Because so often we try to, like, fill it in with a bunch of questions and a bunch of problem-solving that just makes the situation worse in a lot of cases.
• 28:43
  I completely agree with all of this.
• 28:44
  I have actually found that the less I say, the better.
• 28:48
  Well, doesn't that apply for everything, not even just sleep related, but, like, everything behavior related- Less is more with our children?
• 28:54
  Yeah.
• 28:54
  You know, the less you say, sometimes the better the response is.
• 28:58
  For sure.
• 28:58
  But I have a question, because this is what's going on currently in our house right now.
• 29:03
  And you kinda talked about this already.
• 29:05
  My kids are a little bit afraid of the dark, so we've been kind of turning to a dim nightlight, and I don't know if that is the best.
• 29:13
  I wanted to kind of see your thoughts on some of the soothing sort of tools, like a nightlight or a sound machine.
• 29:21
  What are your thoughts on those?
• 29:23
  I know, and what is the myths about these sleep aids for our kids?
• 29:28
  Like, are they helping our kids?
• 29:30
  Are they hurting our kids?
• 29:31
  Are they becoming a crutch?
• 29:32
  I wouldn't be crutch.
• 29:33
  Are they part of the problem?
• 29:34
  Right, right.
• 29:34
  Or are they helping solve the problem?
• 29:36
  Yeah.
• 29:36
  What are your thoughts on that?
• 29:37
  so it depends on the person.
• 29:39
  There's a lot of adults that prefer to sleep with a soft nightlight on, so I don't think there's anything wrong with a nightlight at all.
• 29:45
  Okay.
• 29:46
  But we wanna think about...
• 29:48
  So setting the tone for the room to communicate environmentally that it's actually time for sleep is really important, because whether we're talking about a four-month-old or a five-year-old, or really even an adult, we want the space when we're sleeping to communicate to our bodies that it's time for sleep.
• 30:07
  So I always recommend, I want it to be dark, but a nightlight is okay.
• 30:11
  Not too bright, and not shining- In their face.
• 30:14
  Right in their face, but dim in the room.
• 30:15
  Uh, so that's really good.
• 30:17
  Actually, red as a nightlight color can be really helpful.
• 30:20
  Having a fan on in the room, even a sound machine.
• 30:23
  There's a lot of controversy on a sound machine.
• 30:26
  I am a 42-year-old mom who still sleeps with brown noise- Same'cause it's my favorite sound.
• 30:31
  Same, I love it.
• 30:32
  Yeah.
• 30:32
  But here's the thing is this is the key for a lotta kiddos is I want to switch the environment over depending on the time of the day.
• 30:39
  So it's not like you set the tone for sleep all night long, and then in the morning you just, like, leave your room and leave your sound machine on and leave your fan on.
• 30:47
  One of the missed opportunities is that when we go in there, no matter the age, to say good morning, I wanna, like, together turn on the lights, open the blinds, turn off the sound machine, change that environment over to communicate to them non-verbally that it's time to be awake now.
• 31:03
  And then when it's nap time or when it's bedtime, switch it all back.
• 31:07
  There's a lotta on and off and on and off.
• 31:08
  Yeah, but like right now I have control over opening and closing all of that because I have little kids.
• 31:15
  But like someone like T or someone with older kids, what then?
• 31:20
  Right.
• 31:20
  Well, what then?
• 31:22
  My kids don't just sleep in their room, and I know that there's lots of controversy- Mm surrounding that, but my kids do homework in their rooms.
• 31:28
  They have- I'm sure that a lot of people do.
• 31:28
  They have snacks in their room.
• 31:30
  Right.
• 31:30
  When they have friends over, they hang out in their rooms.
• 31:33
  Sometimes they watch TV in their rooms, or they play their video games, or they play in their rooms, or they read in their rooms.
• 31:39
  Or like the girls do their makeup.
• 31:40
  They have makeup vanities in their room.
• 31:42
  Their rooms are not just for sleeping.
• 31:44
  So the opening and closing of the rooms aren't as formal as they once were- Right, right when they were younger.
• 31:50
  Right.
• 31:50
  So that is something that has shifted as they've gotten older.
• 31:55
  Um, so the room doesn't automatically maybe signal sleep to them anymore.
• 32:00
  So even though I may be not actively going in there and putting them to sleep, I do need to somehow signal it's nighttime, it's bedtime.
• 32:09
  So another sort of bad habit that I've gotten into, and maybe this is not a bad habit, I'd like you to speak to this, is my older boys can put themself to sleep.
• 32:17
  I mean, they're older now.
• 32:18
  They're 13, they're 11.
• 32:20
  Night-night boys, like phones off, TV's off, go to bed.
• 32:24
  But my seven-year-olds like me to lay with them at nighttime and read with them, and they don't let me leave until they fall asleep, and that's the habit that we've gotten into.
• 32:33
  So I have not created s- an environment where they feel safe unless they're asleep and then I leave.
• 32:39
  So how do I break that pattern?
• 32:42
  I know a girl that can help you with that.
• 32:46
  And like not to make this all about me and my kids, but like is this a bad pattern to get into w- falling asleep next to your child at nighttime?
• 32:55
  So I first would start by saying I wouldn't necessarily say it's a bad habit, because you get to lay with your seven-year-old girls every night and get those couple minutes of talking about your day there is a lot of connection and, and wonderful time together in that routine, but it, at 7:00, we definitely want it to be part of the routine, and then we be able to say,"Hey, I love you.
• 33:17
  Good night," and then step away and have them feel confident and safe enough in their space to lay down, go to sleep, and sleep throughout the night, and get the sleep they need.
• 33:27
  So if you say how do we tackle that, there's a lot of different pieces of the puzzle for that.
• 33:32
  And I do refer to it as a puzzle,'cause some of them have really big pieces that we clearly want to address, like learning to fall asleep without you right there.
• 33:40
  But there's also a bunch of little pieces of the puzzle that we can use to support the process as you're changing what's typical for you right now.
• 33:49
  And so some of those might be creating a brand-new bedtime routine.
• 33:52
  Because if the current bedtime routine stays exactly how it is, and the only difference is that Mom's not laying in bed with me until I fall asleep, that's really difficult to understand.
• 34:03
  But if we create a brand-new bedtime routine and that connects with the difference of Mom now stepping out, it makes a little bit more sense.
• 34:12
  We may not love it.
• 34:13
  We may still call Mom back in and want your assistance, but we can connect, like, okay, this whole thing feels different, instead of just this one part of Mom leaving.
• 34:23
  And then ultimately, we would have to decide, once I have my new bedtime routine, and once I say good night and step away, and they're there to fall asleep on their own- If they call for me, if they cry to me, if they come out of their room, what does my response look like to guide them in this moment?
• 34:41
  And that is very family specific.
• 34:45
  So we need to look at the personality of our child, but we also need to look at our parenting style, and ultimately, this is the most important part, choose one way of responding and guiding them if they call for us, if they come out of their room, and stick with that one way of guiding them.
• 35:04
  It's hard because, like, if we try one thing and then we try another thing and we stick with it for a day or two, it's probably not gonna work in a day or two.
• 35:11
  We have to be able to stick consistently with it, and here's an important part, is behaviorally, we have to get over the hump.
• 35:18
  Because we're gonna implement something new, they are not gonna like it.
• 35:22
  They're going to increase their behavior or communication to try to get you to change back to what you used to do.
• 35:29
  And then if you don't, they're like,"What the heck, it's not working," and then their behavior no longer serves the same purpose.
• 35:38
  They see Mommy loves me, Daddy loves me, they're always coming back, I'm safe here.
• 35:43
  But this increase in my behavior doesn't work the same way that it may have before.
• 35:47
  That's when we get over the hump and get to a place of more independent sleep, but we have to get through that.
• 35:52
  So it's kind of like it gets worse before it gets better?
• 35:55
  Lightly, yes.
• 35:56
  Because human behavior is going to increase to try to get that same response, and then when it doesn't happen, we're like,"Ugh, okay, fine.
• 36:04
  I understand.
• 36:05
  I know I'm safe.
• 36:05
  I know that mommy always comes back.
• 36:07
  I know I'm loved, but this isn't working the same way it did before," and then we create that new pattern.
• 36:13
  So like we know consistency matters, but how about consistency between caregivers?
• 36:19
  Because that was something that I struggled with, especially with my daughter.
• 36:23
  Like when I figured out a way, and I'm saying that in quotations'cause she barely slept, but if I got her to sleep and everybody else didn't closely follow the same routine, right, I would lose my mind.
• 36:38
  But maybe they had their own way of getting her back to sleep.
• 36:40
  So how much does that matter?
• 36:42
  Super good question.
• 36:43
  So the younger the child, the more that we want it to be pretty specific across caregivers.
• 36:50
  Okay.
• 36:51
  And so if we're talking babies, I would say have a conversation with whoever the main caregivers are.
• 36:57
  So is it just mom and dad?
• 36:59
  Is it just mom?
• 37:00
  Is it grandma is in there during nap times?
• 37:03
  There's so many different variables here.
• 37:05
  So we've gotta figure out who are the caregivers, and then how are we gonna try to connect some consistency amongst all of them.
• 37:12
  And if we feel like we can't, for example, maybe mom is, like, raring to go, ready to teach these new skills, but, like, Dad's really sensitive to any crying or, and change, and it stresses him out.
• 37:23
  I've had families that are like,"Okay, Mom's got this for the first couple days.
• 37:27
  Dad, go for a walk.
• 37:29
  And then when we start seeing some skills, we'll put this back together." I also have people who are like, Mom and Dad, for example, are like,"I got this.
• 37:36
  We're, we're a team.
• 37:37
  We're both gonna do the same thing." But ultimately, the younger the child, the more consistent we need to be.
• 37:42
  As we get a little bit older, and as they perfect those sleep skills, we can implement the difference between caregivers.
• 37:49
  But I like to still have something that is similar amongst them.
• 37:54
  So for example, the way you say good night.
• 37:57
  So I like to recommend what I call a security statement.
• 38:00
  So one way of saying good night to your child every night, the same phrase or phrases.
• 38:05
  So it could be as simple as,"I love you, sweet girls.
• 38:08
  You know, sweet dreams.
• 38:09
  Good night." You have those same phrases you say every single night, and it becomes an auditory cue of, okay, I understand.
• 38:17
  I know what this means.
• 38:18
  It's comforting as, as you say it more often.
• 38:20
  So if we can have a security statement amongst caregivers, and Mom and Dad and whoever else say the same sentence, that can also be a calming effect and connect the guidance of caregivers, even if they're slightly different.
• 38:33
  Let's talk about some things that parents think are bad habits.
• 38:37
  You know, rocking your baby to sleep every night.
• 38:39
  Oh my God.
• 38:39
  I used to have to rock my daughter to sleep every night, like multiple times a night.
• 38:44
  I mean, feeding your baby to sleep every night.
• 38:46
  Right.
• 38:46
  I remember falling asleep nursing my babies to sleep, like, for s- far too many nights.
• 38:51
  You know, lying next to your child.
• 38:53
  Like, are they bad habits if they work?
• 38:56
  You know, where do you kinda draw the line?
• 38:58
  So every family is different, and from a sleep consultant's perspective, if you are doing some type of guidance that works for your family and you as the parent enjoy it, your child enjoys it, and here's the kicker, they are actually getting sleep, then it's not a bad habit.
• 39:18
  So for example, I have some families that come to me that really enjoy snuggling and rocking to sleep for their babies and even into toddler years.
• 39:26
  And sometimes when you rock to sleep, you may have a, a unicorn child who can transfer into their bed just fine, stay asleep, and then sleep all night long.
• 39:36
  And if that's the case and they are actually getting sleep, then, and you enjoy it, keep doing it.
• 39:41
  But more often than not, that's not the case.
• 39:44
  But there are some t- some situations where that is the case.
• 39:48
  So if you have a little one that you are assisting them to sleep, and then you are having to re-rock to sleep six times throughout the night, then we can look at this from the perspective of, is my child getting the sleep that they need?
• 39:59
  The answer to that is no- No because at this age we're talking about, that's too many wake-ups, right?
• 40:04
  And so at that point we have to decide, how do we address this?
• 40:07
  So that's when it would be referred to as a quote unquote"bad habit." But really it's just a behavior we want to, uh, it, we wanna switch.
• 40:15
  We wanna teach them new skills so we don't have to do that.
• 40:17
  I like how you said, like, if it works both ways too, because for me, when I was struggling with my daughter going to sleep, it was really impacting my evening.
• 40:26
  And by my evening, I meant, like, I was skipping dinner because I was constantly rocking her from 7:00 to 8:00 into 9:00, 10:00 PM and then that was my evening So I wouldn't get to shower, I wouldn't get to eat, I wouldn't get to decompress from the day, and I felt so guilty being the one to raise my hand to say like,"This isn't working for me, you know?
• 40:47
  This is impacting my quality of life, So I think that that's an important distinction but it could also bring on a tremendous sense of guilt, right?
• 40:56
  Where you're like,"Yeah, this is working for her, so maybe I should just deal with it." But when we step back from the situation and we don't look at the trenches we're in, and we just say,"Is this actually working for her?"'Cause you said she was up multiple times at night, so not only was it not working for you, but it wasn't working for her either.
• 41:13
  And so it becomes a decision that is going to benefit both of you.
• 41:17
  So at that point, we just kind of analyze where are we at, what could be happening, and is my child getting the sleep they need, and am I getting the sleep I need as a parent?
• 41:27
  And I urge people to not feel the guilt on that, because there is a phrase that has become so popular, and it is on T-shirts and hats and cups and all over social media.
• 41:39
  And everyone puts#tiredasamother.
• 41:42
  There is, like I said, an, an epidemic of kids not getting enough sleep.
• 41:46
  But if we feel like,"I'm a better mom if I'm just there for them.
• 41:49
  And every time that they wake up, and I'm tired, and I'm...
• 41:52
  And this is just how life is supposed to be" when really we can step back and say,"Actually, my child is capable to get the right amount of sleep that they need for their development and their behavior, and my family can prioritize sleep the same way that we prioritize eating well, moving our bodies, learning at school." Those are all really, really important things, and sleep is, like, top priority here, even amongst u- those things.
• 42:17
  All right.
• 42:17
  Let's get into a phrase that will light the internet on fire: sleep training.
• 42:22
  Oh my God.
• 42:23
  People hear the words sleep training- Mm-hmm and immediately think cry it out.
• 42:27
  Right.
• 42:28
  And I don't know if that's, if it's an all or nothing situation like that.
• 42:33
  You know?
• 42:34
  I had to sleep train my kids, but it certainly was not as simple as shut the door and cry it out- Like leave them screaming and I'll see you in the morning.
• 42:41
  Right.
• 42:41
  Let, leave them screaming.
• 42:42
  Right.
• 42:42
  I mean, there was s- that's like telling your kids,"Go to your room," and then they're gonna go to their room and they're gonna magically behave when they come back down for dinner later.
• 42:50
  You know?
• 42:51
  Right.
• 42:51
  Like, I feel like there's so much more involved in that.
• 42:54
  Right.
• 42:54
  So I would love for you, because you have this magical title of sleep teacher.
• 43:00
  Mm-hmm.
• 43:00
  You are teaching kids how to sleep.
• 43:02
  It's a new learned behavior.
• 43:04
  So I would love for you to explain what sleep training actually encompasses.
• 43:10
  So there is a major misconception when we're talking about the word sleep training.
• 43:15
  Anybody who knows me or has worked with me knows that I don't call it that.
• 43:18
  I've totally taken those words out of my vocabulary, and I call it sleep teaching, I feel like we train animals and we teach our children, and we're just teaching our kids the skills that are necessary for the age that they're at so that they can get the sleep that they need for their health.
• 43:36
  And all of us parents are gonna do what we need for the health of our children, and if teaching them new skills gets them the sleep they need, I don't understand the controversy that surrounds it.
• 43:46
  So this, the words sleep training light fire in both camps.
• 43:51
  If you want some views on social media, all you gotta do is put#sleeptraining and there's gonna be an argument, and that's really sad.
• 43:59
  It's really sad.
• 44:00
  So my big thing is that this is about teaching, this is about new skills that are necessary that some children may naturally just fall into, but most children need to learn, and who's going to teach them except for us?
• 44:14
  And then the other misconception is that sleep training equals cry it out, and that is so not true.
• 44:23
  So I always like to say that there are so many different ways to teach our little ones new skills.
• 44:28
  But before we even talk about what method we're gonna use to teach our children these skills, we first need to look at all the other pieces of the puzzle that play a factor in how we sleep.
• 44:38
  So before I talk about the method of responding, which is what sleep training would be, sleep teaching, we're gonna be looking at things like timing of sleep, environmental, behavioral communication, routines, how, there's, it goes on and on, feeding.
• 44:54
  Y- I could just give you a ginormous list.
• 44:57
  But ultimately, we need to get to the place where we address all those things first, get, b- kind of prepare them for success, and then, yes, we are gonna choose a way of responding to them and do so consistently.
• 45:11
  But when you hear these kind of horror stories where people say,"I sleep trained and my kid cried for three hours straight and it didn't even work," there were missing pieces of the puzzle that we didn't address first before we chose a method, and we may have chosen a method that either didn't fit our child and our parenting style,'cause we weren't comfortable with it, or we weren't consistent potentially in that implementation process.
• 45:37
  And I'm not saying that blaming the parents, because there's so many factors here.
• 45:41
  But the bad raps I think that we hear about all this crying and cry it out is often a misunderstanding of what it could actually be.
• 45:51
  It does not have to be hours of crying.
• 45:53
  But ultimately, I wanna say one more thing.
• 45:56
  When we change our typical way of responding to our children, there's gonna be tears.
• 46:02
  It doesn't matter how gentle of a method you choose.
• 46:06
  You could be right next to them the whole time you're implementing something new, and you may still see tears because you're doing something different than they're used to.
• 46:15
  But if we prepare ahead of time with those puzzle pieces, then we choose one method of responding, and we do so with consistency, like we talked about, we're gonna get over that hump.
• 46:25
  We're gonna teach them new skills, and ultimately, they're getting sleep, and you're getting sleep, and the health of your family is better.
• 46:32
  I keep saying this, but I am just in my element talking about this.
• 46:35
  But I did wanna just point out the two things, because I was somebody that was taking, like, a hodgepodge of information, little tidbits and pieces here and there.
• 46:46
  But two that stuck for us One of them was for feeding.
• 46:50
  So my daughter would never take a full bottle at a time, and there's that famous phrase, eat, play, sleep.
• 47:00
  And I couldn't follow that with my daughter.
• 47:02
  I could follow it with my son, but I ended up hearing that you could also do eat, play, eat, sleep, like if your baby's more of a grazer.
• 47:09
  And so that ensured that she was getting enough calories throughout the day, so that was something that helped.
• 47:15
  For nighttime- And then I love that you used the word respond and behavior, because it was my behavior that was affecting her.
• 47:22
  So when she would cry in the middle of the night, I would go in and make a big fuss about everything.
• 47:28
  Like, I would immediately lift her out of the crib.
• 47:30
  I would check her diaper.
• 47:32
  I would see if she needed a bottle.
• 47:33
  I would sometimes have to, like, turn the lights on.
• 47:36
  Like I was doing things that was stimulating her and causing her to wake up even further.
• 47:42
  And so what started to work was this thing, it was called the ghost feed.
• 47:48
  And so if she would cry, I would go in, like, prepared with a bottle.
• 47:52
  Like, I'm here if you need to eat, that's what I'm here to do because we're not gonna, like, not feed you if you need to eat overnight.
• 47:59
  But I would go in like a ghost.
• 48:02
  Like, I'm here to do business, that's it.
• 48:04
  So I would go in, I would offer her a bottle.
• 48:06
  I would say nothing.
• 48:08
  I would barely turn a light on, like, keep the room super dim, and then I would offer her a bottle.
• 48:15
  And nine times out of ten she didn't wanna eat, so I would lay her back down and slip out the door like a ghost.
• 48:24
  And that was, like, the connecting piece because she learned after a night or two, it was so quick, that if mom is not here to, like, lift me out of the crib to do anything else and extra, then I would rather be sleeping.
• 48:38
  And that was, the connection of she would learn to put herself back to sleep because it wasn't worth her waking up and getting overtired that way.
• 48:48
  That was the connecting piece of all of that.
• 48:51
  well, and it's so common to see situations where as parents, we just want to hurry and solve the problem.
• 48:57
  So we so common over assist, and we don't necessarily think for a second, maybe my child is capable of this.
• 49:06
  What can they do?
• 49:06
  Like if I don't just jump in the deep end and solve the problem, what are they capable of?
• 49:11
  So I think that's a big portion of it as well, is stepping back and looking at like, okay, here's how old they are.
• 49:17
  This is how much they weigh.
• 49:19
  This is how many ounces they're getting during the day for our younger ones, and then saying,"What are they capable of?
• 49:24
  Let me adjust and guide in that way instead of just jumping and solving the problem." I think we covered the little ones really well.
• 49:30
  Yeah.
• 49:30
  And I would like to move on to the older kids, because the problems just change and they evolve.
• 49:36
  Activities run later, school starts earlier, and I've noticed that my kids are increasingly more irritable when they are not sleeping.
• 49:44
  And sometimes just their schedules aren't allowing them to sleep.
• 49:48
  I mean, they have sports, they have homework.
• 49:50
  Their life schedule does not allot for adequate sleep.
• 49:54
  It makes it very difficult.
• 49:56
  And then I'll add a little bit more to this, and my older two have phones, and they are falling- Mm asleep with phones, just like I'm falling- Just like us asleep with phones.
• 50:06
  They need their 15, 20 minutes at the end of the day to decompress.
• 50:10
  So what are we seeing with screens and tweens and, and sleep?
• 50:15
  I, um, I just recently listened to a Dr.
• 50:17
  Becky podcast, and she had this terrific quote on the podcast, and she said that,"Phones are the solution to today's problems, and then they are the cause of tomorrow's problems." Oh my God, that's so true.
• 50:30
  So I would love for you to weigh in on, uh, the first part, obviously, about our teens and their lack of adequate sleep because of their crazy school schedules and their sports schedules.
• 50:41
  And then also, what are we doing with the phones in their bedrooms?
• 50:45
  Okay, super good question.
• 50:47
  I will get into phones in just a second, but I wanna talk about what you said first, which is the lifestyle and the activities that we've got going on, the early that they have to get up for school, and then the late that they're out for sports and so on.
• 50:59
  A lot of people won't like this for my recommendation, but I just feel like I'd be failing if I didn't say that I do think it's important to find a balance between activities and timing of activities, and also that time at home at nighttime.
• 51:16
  And that's not always possible, and that's okay.
• 51:18
  We have to figure out what works for our family.
• 51:20
  But if we can find two to three nights a week where we do get to be at home and have that calm time before ending school, getting a snack, hurrying to your practice, getting home, having dinner, getting in the shower, getting to bed.
• 51:33
  It's boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
• 51:35
  And then we do end up getting into our beds, and we just wanna veg.
• 51:39
  We know that as parents, right?
• 51:41
  Grab our phone, scroll a little bit or watch a show, and then we end up dozing off.
• 51:46
  For our children, our teens, it is really important that we have some periods where we have calmness before bed.
• 51:55
  It calms our brain in ways that are so important for our bodies.
• 51:59
  If it's not possible to do so, though, I love the recommendation of making sure that we have at least 15 to 20 minutes of no screens before we fall asleep, and I know that us, as adults, we really stink at that and I'm guilty of it as well.
• 52:16
  But the benefits that come from it for our teens is really important, and they're gonna not like that recommendation at all.
• 52:23
  I personally am a big fan of having the, having phones outside of the room.
• 52:28
  They have their own bed, and they're not within our bedrooms.
• 52:31
  They can go in there if that's what fits your family, and they can have that time to scroll a little bit.
• 52:36
  But where, for our families, are we gonna put a boundary on the amount of time, and where does it end up going to be charged at the end of the night?
• 52:45
  And I do feel really strongly about that.
• 52:48
  As we're using our phone, it does stimulate the exact part of our brain that assists in falling asleep and reaching that deep restorative sleep that we want, and that's especially so in our teenagers.
• 52:59
  So if there's a way to create a period and just set a new boundary where it's like,"You can have your phone till this time, but then you gotta go put it in its bed," and maybe that's in the laundry room.
• 53:09
  The phone charger just sits in there, and they have to go plug it up and then go to sleep.
• 53:13
  But figuring out where your boundaries are as a family and prioritizing some time without the screen in their face before they fall asleep is so beneficial for their depth of sleep and their, um, the benefits that come from the sleep that they're gonna get overnight.
• 53:29
  When we're talking about babies and toddlers and elementary school kiddos, we do want to have a balance of about the same amount of sleep from day to day to day, and not like 7 hours one day and 12 the other, and then 9 and then 13.
• 53:43
  That can get confusing in our bodies.
• 53:45
  But when we talk about the teenagers and the amount of rapid growth that's happening internally within their body, w- it is okay to have variations where on a school day and where we have sports at night, unfortunately, we're gonna get a little bit less sleep or maybe significantly less sleep.
• 54:03
  But on the weekends, we have an opportunity to get more.
• 54:06
  So as far as the topic of catching up, there's really not, that's not really a thing.
• 54:11
  But if we look at it from a different perspective of the ability to get more sleep overall, fill up our tank of more sleep, we want to do it when we can within reason.
• 54:23
  So absolutely nothing wrong on a Saturday morning if we don't have to get up early and get to a game or whatever, let them sleep in within reason.
• 54:32
  When I say that, what I mean is I don't want them to sleep so late in the morning that they can't fall asleep at nighttime when it actually is bedtime, and then we're reinforcing super late bedtime, super you know, sleeping in on the weekends.
• 54:46
  But then during the week, they're gonna want a super late bedtime'cause they don't feel tired yet, but they have to be up early.
• 54:52
  So we have to find the balance where, let's say, during the week they fall asleep at like 10-ish, and then they have to be up at 6:30 or something for school, just throwing out numbers.
• 55:03
  Well then on the weekend, maybe they fall asleep at like 10:30 or 11, and then we let their body make it until maybe even 11 or 12 if your family's okay with that.
• 55:13
  You might have some people listening that are like,"No way am I letting my teenager sleep till noon.
• 55:17
  Half the day is gone," right?
• 55:19
  So you do have to figure out what fits your family.
• 55:21
  But ultimately, what I wanna avoid is going to bed so late on the weekends and then sleeping till 1 or 2 o'clock in the afternoon, and then we're reinforcing the late bedtimes.
• 55:33
  We don't wanna reinforce that.
• 55:34
  We wanna find balance But we do wanna allow them to get extra rest on the weekend if they can.
• 55:39
  One more thing on that, though, is if we have a napper.
• 55:42
  So let's say we have a teenager who, like, sleeps extra on the weekend, but not too late in the morning, but they fall asleep on the couch at, like, 2:00 in the afternoon and sleep for two hours.
• 55:52
  That's okay for us to see some naps in our teenagers, no problem, except if it's too late in the day.
• 55:58
  So if we have a teenager who, like, w- is dozing off on the couch at 7:00 at night after dinner, wakes up at 9:00 fully refreshed and doesn't wanna go to b- bed until 2:00 in the morning, that's a problem.
• 56:10
  So we gotta find that balance and make sure we're not sleeping at the wrong times, or that it's not making bedtime too late.
• 56:16
  Okay, I have another phrase that might break the internet, but what do you think is enough sleep for somebody our age, in perimenopause, in their 40s?
• 56:25
  'Cause I wonder d- how much sleep do we actually need?
• 56:29
  I will be the first one to admit that I'm a great sleeper.
• 56:32
  I am blessed enough to be a good sleeper.
• 56:35
  I am the same way, and I will...
• 56:37
  I am team sleep.
• 56:37
  Oh.
• 56:37
  I could fall asleep the minute my head, my head hits the pillow.
• 56:41
  I can sleep a whole lot of hours if I don't have to be up for something.
• 56:45
  So I feel you on that one.
• 56:47
  But the minimum I like to see an adult get is about seven hours.
• 56:52
  The same is true that we were talking about earlier, where, like, you do have some adults that go,"Oh, I just need five hours and I'm fine," and whatever.
• 57:00
  I don't believe it.
• 57:02
  There are some adults that get four or five hours of sleep and get up and go to work the next day and maybe feel like they're good to go, but chances are we hit, we're crashing somewhere throughout the day.
• 57:12
  There's an extra coffee or an energy drink involved somewhere throughout the day.
• 57:17
  So for those on the lower end of sleep, I challenge you to think,"Do I actually wake up rested?
• 57:23
  Can I make it throughout the whole day without a nap or an, something that helps me stay awake," and so on.
• 57:29
  So that just kind of answers on the low end.
• 57:31
  But seven hours is the minimum I would love to see people get.
• 57:35
  We are s- we are designed to sleep.
• 57:37
  We have to go through a specific number of circadian rhythms in order to b- regulate our hormone balance, how, balance our hormones, help us on how we feel, how we're able to be there for others, how we're able to get up and get through our day step by step, the energy we have for our children, for our health.
• 57:55
  The list goes on and on.
• 57:56
  So we do not want to glorify sleep deprivation or,"Oh, I'm so tired," or,"I never get sleep." Pr- we wanna prioritize it the same as we do health and nutrition and anything else, for sure.
• 58:09
  But then we have people with higher sleep needs, like you're talking about.
• 58:12
  And like, I love a eight to 10-hour night.
• 58:15
  I mean, I've even been known for a little bit more than that if I don't have to get up.
• 58:18
  That's our, that's our, uh, well-rested mama badge of honor- Mm that we're gonna put there.
• 58:22
  But the thing is, can you fall asleep in a good amount of time, stay asleep without waking up a ton, and forcing yourself to go back to sleep?
• 58:33
  I think you probably can, and I can as well.
• 58:36
  But there's some people on the extreme end of sleep.
• 58:39
  You said,"Is there too much?
• 58:40
  Is that a thing?
• 58:41
  Can you get too much sleep?" There's some people that may be experiencing depression or anxiety and feel better when they're sleeping more, and then they're in a place where they're kinda forcing themselves to go back to sleep.
• 58:52
  Of course, the answer there would be, no, that's not healthy, and we would wanna, you know, look at that from a different perspective and address it properly.
• 59:00
  But people like you and I, who can fall asleep and just feel like,"I can sleep all the way through.
• 59:05
  I feel so rested.
• 59:06
  That was the best night's sleep," there's nothing wrong with getting a longer amount of sleep and having higher sleep needs, the same as some kids have higher sleep needs.
• 59:15
  I also just want you to comment on the hormonal component of all of this.
• 59:19
  I know that there is definitely a connection between the hormonal changes that occur as we get older and sleep dis- disruption.
• 59:26
  Can you talk on how potentially, you know, that can affect our sleep too, and is there anything that we can be doing as middle-aged women to sort of promote good sleep as we are entering this next phase of life?
• 59:39
  The opposite is true as well.
• 59:40
  So people who aren't necessarily prioritizing sleep in general and are getting far less sleep than they need, or they stay up really late watching TV or scrolling through TikTok and go to bed too late, that alone is gonna mess up our horm- hormones.
• 59:55
  And so the foundational reason you could see a hormone shift is very much sleep-related in a lot of situations.
• 1:00:01
  It can go both directions, but sleep is a huge connection to our hormone and our hormone balance within our bodies.
• 1:00:08
  I really think that the heart of this episode was to release the shame associated with sleep.
• 1:00:15
  And if your child has reached a certain age, it is not too late to sleep through the night.
• 1:00:22
  And it is not too late to seek help, and you shouldn't have shame as a mother for wanting to also get adequate sleep.
• 1:00:28
  So before we close out, what do you think one of the biggest sleep myths out there for your pediatric patients would be?
• 1:00:36
  So I think we've touched on, on it a little bit, but it's so important to just stress it one more time.
• 1:00:41
  The biggest sleep myth out there is that sleep training equals cry it out.
• 1:00:47
  I wanna stress to everyone out there that the contradicting information that's on the internet is not the reason to allow your family to continue missing sleep opportunities, that we can figure out a way to reach sleep in a way that fits your family and your little one without putting him in the room, closing the door, letting him cry till the morning.
• 1:01:07
  There are so many other things we can focus on, and then get your family sleeping, which we all need for our health.
• 1:01:15
  You gave us so much useful information today, and if there is one listener that want-- that only has time for one thing in this conversation, what would you want that takeaway to be?
• 1:01:28
  I think it's that, I think it's that sleep is possible.
• 1:01:32
  I...
• 1:01:32
  There's just so many people that question.
• 1:01:34
  They're in the trenches.
• 1:01:36
  They're so tired.
• 1:01:38
  They're feeling frustrated and like things aren't possible.
• 1:01:42
  And I think knowing that there is a path to your goals and that your child can sleep, that there's nothing wrong with them, that there's nothing wrong with you, that you're a great mom, and that sleep is possible no matter what.
• 1:01:57
  I feel like taking a deep breath and focusing on that can get us to a place where we set those goals and we figure out the path, and then we have that mindset shift to get to a place where our family's rested.
• 1:02:09
  So sleep is possible would be the biggest takeaway I'd want people to take with them.
• 1:02:14
  I'm sure that there's either a new mom or a mom that is in a new phase with their kid not sleeping where they just feel so hopeless, because I have been there, and I'm sure a lot of people have been there before.
• 1:02:24
  So I think that that's just such an important message to remember.
• 1:02:28
  So thank you for saying that.
• 1:02:30
  I think we should close out on that, you know?
• 1:02:32
  Sleep is possible.
• 1:02:33
  Again, I love that message.
• 1:02:35
  So now we're gonna close with our pink spotlight, which is what we end every episode with, sharing something in our lives that's making our lives a little bit better.
• 1:02:44
  So it could be a person, product, place, thing, tip, a little mantra, and we always close off our episodes by sharing that So T, do you have one for us?
• 1:02:57
  Yeah, so I just got the most terrific gift of my life, and when it was given to me, I was told that my whole family's gonna fight over it one- Oh.
• 1:03:07
  Yes, I can tell you that is true.
• 1:03:10
  I found it in Vincent's room one morning.
• 1:03:11
  I found it in Joseph's room.
• 1:03:12
  I know what it is.
• 1:03:13
  It, I got the Lola blanket.
• 1:03:14
  Oh my God.
• 1:03:15
  So S- Steph Goer, that was one of her, her pick spotlight, like, a couple episodes back.
• 1:03:20
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:03:20
  So, and I love mine.
• 1:03:21
  I ca- Yes.
• 1:03:22
  I wanna get, like, four more now.
• 1:03:23
  I told you.
• 1:03:23
  I want one for my bed.
• 1:03:24
  I wanna get one for the couch.
• 1:03:26
  The one that I received was the medium, and it is massive.
• 1:03:29
  Huge.
• 1:03:29
  Even the medium is gigantic.
• 1:03:31
  There's nothing like it.
• 1:03:32
  And it is heavy and lush, and the print is so beautiful.
• 1:03:36
  Worth the hype.
• 1:03:36
  The one I got is, like, an antelope print.
• 1:03:38
  Mm.
• 1:03:38
  It is so beautiful.
• 1:03:39
  It is worth the hype.
• 1:03:41
  They always have, like, coupon codes on it.
• 1:03:43
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:03:43
  And we think we ha- we're gonna have one for our listeners.
• 1:03:45
  Yeah, yeah.
• 1:03:45
  We'll put it in the show notes.
• 1:03:45
  But it is such an amazing gift to receive or give.
• 1:03:51
  I love it.
• 1:03:52
  I told you, my cats fight over it.
• 1:03:53
  Yeah, you sent the picture- Like, somebody in my family- With Alicia and Meg in, in there.
• 1:03:58
  I love it.
• 1:03:59
  But I love it.
• 1:03:59
  I love, love, love my Lola blanket.
• 1:04:00
  Love it.
• 1:04:01
  Thank you, girls, for m- my gift.
• 1:04:03
  Okay, so mine this week is, remember how last week we talked about, like, the September reset?
• 1:04:08
  Yeah, it's like the new year.
• 1:04:09
  Yes.
• 1:04:10
  So we're, like, back in a routine again.
• 1:04:11
  And I've been using back to school, and the fact that I have to get up early and get everybody out the door for school, I've been using it as an excuse to keep myself out of the house, and it has been so good for my mood.
• 1:04:23
  I got used to doing everything at home.
• 1:04:25
  Like, I work from home.
• 1:04:26
  I work out at home.
• 1:04:27
  I get groceries delivered.
• 1:04:28
  Like, I literally do not have to leave my house.
• 1:04:31
  So I'm using school drop-off as an excuse to leave the house and then, like, stay out, and it's really helping.
• 1:04:37
  I feel like I'm in a much better mood because I'm, like, out and about.
• 1:04:40
  I'm going to my workout class.
• 1:04:42
  I'm running errands, and when I go to the grocery store, for example, I throw on a podcast.
• 1:04:49
  I throw on an Audible.
• 1:04:50
  I'm using it as, like, a little self-care right now, and it is making a very big impact on my mood, I swear.
• 1:04:56
  Welcome to society.
• 1:04:58
  So, right.
• 1:04:58
  Literally.
• 1:04:58
  I'm leaving my home.
• 1:05:00
  That is my pink spotlight of the week.
• 1:05:03
  I, I love that for you.
• 1:05:05
  You know what?
• 1:05:05
  You never know who you're gonna meet, what you're gonna encounter- So true what inspiration is gonna come to you- Yes, it's so when you leave your home.
• 1:05:12
  Yes.
• 1:05:13
  You know?
• 1:05:13
  I- Like, I gotta get out of the routine And sometimes I find it somewhat ironic that we find safety in our homes.
• 1:05:19
  Yep.
• 1:05:19
  But the mu- h- it can become so mundane.
• 1:05:22
  S- it can.
• 1:05:23
  You know?
• 1:05:24
  Yes, so I feel like i'm, like, in a routine but out of the routine at the same time.
• 1:05:27
  Yeah.
• 1:05:27
  So love that.
• 1:05:28
  Love it.
• 1:05:29
  What about you, Samantha?
• 1:05:30
  Do you have a pink spotlight for us?
• 1:05:31
  I feel like mine kind of pi- piggybacks on the self-care side of it.
• 1:05:35
  Of course, getting sleep is the ultimate self-care, so we gotta prioritize that one for sure.
• 1:05:40
  But I think journaling is something that I've brought back in my life recently.
• 1:05:45
  My life is a bit crazy right now.
• 1:05:47
  We've got some personal things going on that I never expected or foreshadowed within my life.
• 1:05:52
  And so bringing back journaling I think has been really great.
• 1:05:57
  I don't do it every day.
• 1:05:58
  I should do it every day.
• 1:06:00
  But I don't know, just taking a second to self-care and, brain dump, get your thoughts out, has been something bringing me some positivity currently I'm journaling to my children because...
• 1:06:11
  And I'm not giving it to them to read right now, I'm with them all the time, but to write to them in a different way and I may give it to them one day, I may not, but it's a really cool exercise that kind of slows my breath down and brings me very much in the moment of my thoughts.
• 1:06:26
  Samantha, thank you so much for such an informative- I know episode, not only just for us personally- Mm-hmm but for our listeners, and I know you have a podcast of your own.
• 1:06:36
  Or all of these things that we talked about today, I feel like we just kinda scratched the surface.
• 1:06:39
  I know.
• 1:06:40
  And so we want to link all of your episodes in our show notes, so if an, one of our listeners is interested in one of these topics, you can do a double-click and a deep dive- A deep dive, yep into all of that.
• 1:06:52
  Yep, yep, yep.
• 1:06:52
  Yeah, so please share with our listeners where we can find you.
• 1:06:55
  And if you like this episode, share it with a friend, because I guarantee you your neighbor, your friend, your, the mom at pickup is also struggling with sleep.
• 1:07:06
  Someone needs to hear this.
• 1:07:07
  Your approach doesn't just have potential to change the way our child sleeps, it can change the way our whole family can function going forward I would love to meet as many families that are, are ready to set these, uh, priorities as possible, and the best place is just my website.
• 1:07:25
  So it's samanthadayconsulting.com.
• 1:07:29
  And they're gonna be able to link to all my socials, to my parenting podcast, things like that.
• 1:07:33
  So samanthadayconsulting.com.
• 1:07:35
  Oh, that was so good.
• 1:07:36
  I literally could talk about this all day, but it is time for us to go.
• 1:07:40
  Thank you guys so much for listening to this.
• 1:07:43
  Like T said, if you loved this episode, please, please, please share it with somebody.
• 1:07:47
  I'm sure that there's a million people that need to listen to this advice, and we'll see you guys next week.
• 1:07:54
  See you all next week.
• 1:07:55
  Bye.
• 1:07:56
  Bye.