Latest / The Yield Doctor with James Deaker / Monica Khan on the Creator Economy

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Monica Khan on the Creator Economy · The Yield Doctor with James Deaker

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The creator economy is one of the most
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talked about shifts in media today and
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it's also one of the most misunderstood.
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My guest today is Monica Khan. She is
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the founder and CEO of Creator
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Revolution and has held senior roles
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across content community and partnership
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at companies like YouTube and Meta.
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Monica and I are both currently senior
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adviserss with McKenzie and Company,
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which is actually how we met. Monica, I
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am so glad that we were able to make
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this conversation happen today.
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>> Thank you so much for having excited to
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have another senior adviser at McKenzie
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interview me today.
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>> Brilliant. Now, let's start with
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something really foundational. When you
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use the term creator and the creator
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economy, how do you define it?
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Yeah, when I think about creators, it's
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people who are creating content online.
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They're posting that in some sort of
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cadence and they're also potentially
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monetizing that in some sort of ca
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cadence. There are so many different
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platforms that they could be uploading
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to. I think YouTube historically has
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been the place where creator
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monetization um started and has been
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thriving. But now there are platforms
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like Substack and newsletter as a format
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that counts as content creation. So um
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you know that's how I define creator.
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When I think about creator economy
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there's a whole ecosystem now that's
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formed around the activity of creating
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content because of that monetization um
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potential that exists there. So there
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are the advertisers that want to be
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associated with creators perhaps
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integrated in their content and
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sponsoring them in some way because they
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want to get in front of the people that
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creators have developed followings
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around. There are the platforms that
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have created these ecosystems where
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creators can post content and build a
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relationship a parasocial relationship
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with people in a regular capacity. Um
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and then plat then there's the agencies
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right the agencies that are also trying
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to help connect the dots between brands
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and platforms brands and creators and
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sort of you know when I say agencies I
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think of talent representation I think
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of um you know the uh agencies that are
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doing the campaigns between creators and
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brands and also management like myself
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who manages some creators etc. So
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there's a whole eco and then not to
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mention all of these thirdparty
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companies beyond the platforms that are
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supporting creators in some sort of
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infrastructure capacity from payments to
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you know audience optimization. Um you
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know there is so much out there actually
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if you start to dig in and there really
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isn't one single tool that solves it
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all. There is be as diverse as creators
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are so are the services and um sort of
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tools that exist in support of it. So
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yeah, that's the creator economy that
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has formed, which I've been in this, you
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know, working with creators for 15
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years. Really wasn't until maybe six
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years ago that I started hearing creator
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economy as a term and bringing this
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framing and legit legitimacy to this
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space where there's value exchange
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happening across so many different sides
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of the table. So, so given that you've
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just listed so many different entities
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and types of entity, maybe it's easier
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to simply say what is not creator
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economy. Where do you think about
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drawing the line? When does a platform
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or an app or a website not qualify as
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being part of that creator economy or
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creator in that context?
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>> Well, I think that um that's a really
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good question. I haven't thought about
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it in that way. So, I mean, let's take I
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think it's easier to use an example like
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Netflix for example. I think that they
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have historically been a streaming
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platform argue digital a digital media
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company because the streaming platform
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has been online and this is post DVD
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right where they the mail in DVDs or
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whatnot. Um but I think up until
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recently that they've been doing some
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content acquisition with creators and
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co-creating exclusive content that they
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put behind the payw wall for Netflix
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users to access. Until then, I don't
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know that I would even say they are
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really in the sort of creator economy,
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if you will, cuz sort of streaming I
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don't put in that same bucket in terms
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of the business models that I associate
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with it. Um, I mean, I know they've as a
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brand have been leaning into social
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media. They have their YouTube channel.
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They have their Instagram page and
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leaning into marketing in a social first
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way. But when I think of creator
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economy, I think of business models that
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are different. And I think about, you
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know, um sort of an ownership question.
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How do you own your content? And how are
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you making that money? Are you um sort
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of generating that through platforms or
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are you actually um going direct to
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consumer to to generate that revenue?
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So, that's kind of where I make the
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distinction.
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>> Okay. I I like it. Now maybe le let's go
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to how you're working with creators
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today. What's your role? What are the
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primary challenges or problems that
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you're helping to to solve?
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>> Yeah. So where I spend my most time are
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with the creators that I represent
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exclusively. So take Silicon Valley
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Girl. Her name is Marina McIll. She's
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been posting online, creating content
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for over 10 years. She got started on
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YouTube and she's had her own sort of
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evolution of starting as a like language
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learning creator and test prep and then
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moving into really sort of uh building
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an audience around entrepreneurship,
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tech, and AI in the Bay Area. And she
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has a podcast now where she interviews
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top executive founders specifically in
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the AI space. Um, so how I help her and
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how we started working together, we were
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friends before we started working
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together and she already had um a very
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large team of producers and editors and
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um other folks supporting her in the
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day-to-day sort of business of
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developing and posting content
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regularly. Um, where we decided to
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partner was sort of me helping her with
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her partnerships and growth in general.
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So certainly revenue generating
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partnerships and a big part of that
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being um her brand partnerships, but
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then also any kind of partnership that
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would expand her presence in some way.
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Um and sort of talking through how we
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could sort of partner on that. So that's
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where I spent a lot of my time. She's
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just one example. She's my she's my
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biggest client, but there are other
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creators that I support as well where I
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am sort of on a day-to-day basis
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engaging with brands, whether I'm
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pitching them in an outbound capacity or
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managing the inbox, receiving the
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inbound and um responding to those
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offers and negotiating and structuring
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partnerships where um creators will
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create content for a brand that they
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would post to their platform or they
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wouldn't. In some cases, there are some
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user generated content deals that we'll
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see, but um you know, in the spirit of
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being an advocate for that brand and
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getting paid in exchange for doing that.
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So, that's how I spend most of my time.
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But because I've spent a lot of time,
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you know, working at YouTube and Meta in
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the past, building product solutions for
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a lot of these incredible sort of use
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cases for creators. Also, just advising
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on their content strategy, on their
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platform strategy. I've made a lot of
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incredible co, you know, friends and
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colleagues along the way. How can I help
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uh sort of make connections and
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introductions as well throughout the
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journey and process? Um, and it's been
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really anything and everything. It could
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be like the hottest ticket to the most
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exclusive AI dinner happening in San
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Francisco to I'm going to be traveling
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internationally. Which airline can I
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get, you know, free flights for? And so
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a lot of these things there's it's not
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commissionable. So that's the other
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thing like I I charging a commission for
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the work I do with uh creator clients
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that I represent exclusively. So there's
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always going to be things that aren't
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commissionable but it's just part of
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getting to work with me and that you
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know that is the benefit of working with
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me. I hadn't actually intended to get to
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it until later in this discussion, but
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since we're right there in terms of how
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you make money and how creators make
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money, I think much of my audience is
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familiar with sort of digital
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advertising in terms of you've got
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content. There's going to be advertising
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either beside it or potentially
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interrupting it if it's a stream. For
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many creators, I imagine that's actually
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one of their smallest revenue streams
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associated with something like a meta or
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a YouTube. they're probably making money
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in lots of different ways. May if you
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could just talk us through the buckets
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of different ways that creators make
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money and if you want to actually start
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with with with advertising. I said most
9:15
people be familiar with it but we may as
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well start there and you can move
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quickly.
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>> Yeah, I mean I think I'll start there
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because I started working at YouTube in
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2014 and the primary revenue source at
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that time for creators was AdSense,
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right? And it was the early days of um
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the YouTube partner program where
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monetization was available to creators
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who passed a certain threshold. Um and
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um you know that's but again really
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reserved for YouTube long- form creators
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even today right because as YouTube
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evolved and sort of added short form as
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a format to um the platform you know
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creators can monetize that but it's
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definitely minuscule compared to what
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you can make on long form content but uh
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few years after I started YouTube I
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don't know I think it's like 2016 maybe
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was when we started to see brand
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partnerships as a revenue source where
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brands were reaching out to creators
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whether it be through agencies or
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directly about um you know the
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opportunity for a a creator to create
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content uh for that brand whether it was
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you know a dedicated video end to end or
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it was some sort of integration that
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would sit in the long form video. um you
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know that was a very new type of
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conversation where brands recognized the
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influence that creators had specifically
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around reach right there definitely was
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this association around you know the
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more followers you have the better brand
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deals you will get
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um so uh so but then the short form
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revolution happened where we're starting
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to see short form pop up on Tik Tok and
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then Instagram followed through with
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reals
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And then YouTube soon added that short
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form is the lowest barrier to entry when
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it comes to online video content. Online
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video content as you know is really the
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best best source of you know uh
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inventory when it comes to advertising
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right but with short form content it's
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just not long enough right for there to
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be meaningful platform revenue. So
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that's where then short form with the
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brand partnerships model actually became
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the catalyst for accelerating the brand
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partnerships uh revenue model um and
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really justifying for creators of like
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oh wow I can make a lot of money
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partnering with brands and that being
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the the really the the core way creators
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were making money because that was the
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easiest way to create content and then
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starting to get brand deals into their
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DMs right like in their inbox. bots like
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even before they even thought about how
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do I pitch myself people that's how
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active it was that brands are already
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start reaching out through various tools
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and mechanisms and whatnot um so those
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are the two primary ways but I would say
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brand partnerships is the biggest uh
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revenue bucket because not everyone has
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figured out long form content right and
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which is primarily through YouTube
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certainly there are other platforms now
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like Spotify where you know you can get
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a rev share I believe and um other
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places where you can make revenue
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through the platform but not at the
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scale and depth that um I know and I
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know Facebook too if you have longer
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form video you can make money that way
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as well for certain creators think that
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the scale and the depth and sort of the
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breath like that's coming from YouTube
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so that's why brand partnerships
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continues to be the biggest revenue
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stream but you know over time we've also
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seen other models pop up, right? We've
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also seen like the Patreons of the world
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where you can actually um create your
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own sort of membership model like a
13:00
charge a subscription and people can pay
13:03
for certain tiers and get access to
13:06
certain benefits beyond what they get
13:08
for free on YouTube or another, you
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know, adup supported platform where
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they're getting content for free. Um, so
13:15
then we started to see kind of the
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Patreons pop up very much also like very
13:19
aligned with podcasts even today and
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we've seen Patreon kind of explode.
13:24
There was also the concept of live
13:25
streaming and people sort of sending
13:28
money through the live stream like
13:30
tipping and things like that that I know
13:32
Twitch and YouTube were very kind of
13:34
known for. Um and then of course the
13:38
commerce piece of it, right? Where you
13:40
can um you know pay creators for
13:42
products and things like that from merch
13:44
or something more substantive and then
13:47
you know whether it's on the platform or
13:49
on their own website, right? Where
13:52
they're now building a product line and
13:54
making that available to extend their
13:56
influence and really convert their
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influence into a much more meaningful
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margin for them that they don't get in
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the same way on YouTube. So this is the
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concept now of I think it really started
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with the Patreons of the world but like
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moving from a rent renting attention
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model to now owning your audience model,
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right? And this is where newsletters
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started to come into play. Um you know
14:20
and other places where you own your
14:22
data, right? You build your mailing list
14:24
when you own your newsletter and things
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like that. Um and you know there are
14:28
multiple ways through a newsletter that
14:30
you can make money. Now with Beehive
14:31
there is an adup supported model. with
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Substack you can actually charge also a
14:35
subscription for that. Um, and then of
14:37
course, you know, this is now going back
14:40
to, we were talking about Netflix
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earlier. We see the streaming platform
14:44
seeing what's happening with the
14:45
explosion of creators and the
14:48
relationship and engagement they're
14:50
building with with followers where you
14:52
know should they be licensing content
14:55
acquiring content from creators because
14:58
of the relationship they built with
15:00
followers that if they put it behind the
15:01
payw wall those people may come to buy
15:04
that because that's how much of a fan
15:07
they are you know of that creator. So
15:10
certainly we see Netflix dipping their
15:12
toes with a couple top YouTubers which I
15:15
don't know that I ever imagined that
15:16
that would happen but it is happening.
15:17
We see 2B going very aggressively to
15:20
acquire creators. And I think this is
15:22
just the beginning. And now we're
15:23
starting to see companies like Fox said
15:26
that they're investing in a whole slate
15:28
of micro dramas and Darm Man, one of the
15:30
top YouTube creators being the ones that
15:32
they're partnering with. So all of a
15:34
sudden streaming is now like a platform.
15:37
when we've seen like this short form
15:38
creator Nabila no um she's kind of like
15:41
a Martha Stewart South Asian creator
15:44
short form I would always say short form
15:45
creators like I don't know that you
15:47
could ever get a streaming deal long
15:48
form content is where you actually sort
15:50
of build the proof around what that
15:52
could be but she just got a streaming
15:54
deal so
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>> and Monica sorry very tactically where
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do you differentiate short versus long
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form is it 10 minutes five minutes
16:01
where's where's the break point
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>> that's a great point I think um there is
16:05
an official definition I would say it's
16:07
like gosh I don't know whatever the max
16:10
is on Tik Tok or Instagram is it five
16:12
minutes maybe three to five
16:14
>> I don't know I know YouTube shorts is
16:16
>> I should know this
16:18
YouTube shorts
16:20
>> but like over eight minutes 10 minutes
16:23
this is now in the long form range and
16:26
then if you can do 20 minutes plus is
16:28
usually where we saw RPMs on YouTube be
16:32
um even better if you can have it be
16:33
longer.
16:34
>> Okay. uh help me think about scale. And
16:37
there's probably a number of different
16:38
dimensions to this, but you've got
16:40
millions of people out there who are
16:42
creating videos while they're working
16:44
their real job. Uh at what stage does
16:47
someone start to break through uh and
16:50
start to be like, okay, this can be a
16:52
job for them and they can quit their day
16:54
job. And obviously there's personal
16:56
circumstance. I guess that even depends
16:58
on are you trying to have a general
17:00
audience or be very specific to a niche
17:03
and then what stage they sort of break
17:05
through and become a star and frankly
17:07
someone like you might want to start
17:08
working with them. So how do you think
17:10
about the different tiers of the you
17:12
know size and scale of different
17:14
creators?
17:15
>> Yeah, it's it's not intuitive. I think
17:18
that if you asked me this question five
17:20
years ago, I would have answered it
17:21
differently. Like I think I would have
17:23
answered it the way that we saw
17:25
initially brand partnerships favoring
17:27
these creators who were seen as mega
17:29
influencers who had massive followings
17:32
like you know over half a million
17:34
followers kind of thing. The more
17:35
followers you have the more they'll get
17:37
paid um for the content they create
17:40
because of the reach that they're going
17:41
to get that content in front of, right?
17:43
The the the size of the following. Um,
17:46
but I think what's really interesting
17:48
now is that we see creators who we would
17:51
call micro influencers, you know, maybe
17:55
like a 100,000 to followers to a million
17:57
followers, um, actually being really
18:01
attractive to specific brands because of
18:04
the niche that they represent, right?
18:06
Like take some of these creators who are
18:09
wholly focused on AI. All they do is
18:13
test all these different tools and
18:15
showcase use cases of how these AI tools
18:18
are changing some workflow in their
18:21
life. I'm sure you've seen it.
18:22
Everybody's watching them right now,
18:24
right? Um, but some of these creators
18:26
don't have the hugest following. They
18:28
don't have a million followers plus or
18:30
anything like that. say they have a
18:32
couple hundred thousand, but if you look
18:34
at the engagement of their content, you
18:36
know, perhaps, you know, how many
18:38
comments are there with respect to the
18:40
impressions, you know, how many how
18:42
frequently are they posting and how many
18:44
views are happening on that? the
18:46
engagement is really where you can kind
18:49
of signal that there's um you know a lot
18:52
of activity and um con conversion
18:55
potential here but it's also like in the
18:57
quality of the comments and other
18:59
metrics that brands can use to kind of
19:02
in you know sort of sess that out but so
19:04
these creators who have fallen this
19:08
micro influencer bucket some of them are
19:11
still full-time at Google they're still
19:13
fulltime at LinkedIn and that is not
19:16
something five years ago I saw
19:19
happening, right? And these creators
19:22
have like created a whole other
19:24
full-time, you know, paycheck for like
19:27
if you look at how much they're making
19:28
on just the creator side, separate from
19:30
what they make as a full-time employee,
19:31
it's pretty impressive. So, when do we
19:34
see them actually decide to go
19:36
full-time? To your question, this is now
19:39
subjective to the person, right? And I
19:42
think that there is no right answer. But
19:45
there is somebody, for example, I know
19:47
um this woman who was working at Google
19:49
as a data scientist. She started talking
19:52
about data science and AI online. She
19:54
did incredibly well and made more money
19:57
than she was making at Google. You know,
20:00
I don't I don't think it's like a for
20:03
sure this happens, but there's a very
20:05
good chance if you start making money,
20:08
more money than your current job. You'll
20:10
probably say, I think I'm going to
20:12
double down on this thing. I also am
20:15
having way more fun. I mean, I think
20:17
quality of life, are you pursuing your
20:19
passions? Are you designing your life
20:20
the way you want to? Are you really
20:22
enjoying that? That is real. And if
20:24
you're able to build a sustainable
20:27
business around what you love, I mean, I
20:29
think that's that's real. So, of course,
20:31
if you make more money than your real,
20:33
great. I see people doing it even less
20:35
than that because they see the momentum
20:38
and they see a boundless potential that
20:41
they don't see in their existing job.
20:43
Right. And they would rather work
20:45
towards this boundless potential than
20:48
performance reviews for a higher
20:50
percentage of
20:53
Right. Right.
20:55
>> I I as you know, I haven't worked in a
20:57
corporation for a few years. There are
20:59
things I really don't miss either giving
21:01
or receiving performance reviews. Uh
21:03
yeah, there's a lot of those activities.
21:05
>> Yeah. So, um you know, I think that it
21:08
it just really depends and I and I and I
21:10
do feel that even the slice that I'm
21:13
talking about, it's like there are so
21:15
many kinds of people and how they think
21:17
about work and work and their approach
21:19
to work. But I do think that there is
21:21
this interesting dynamic between folks
21:24
who I would have maybe thought would
21:26
work at Google forever but are you know
21:29
finding creator as a way to build a
21:31
portfolio career and maybe the they do
21:34
creator and another and other thing
21:36
right um so it's it's been interesting
21:39
so yeah so there just isn't there isn't
21:41
a real answer and it's also not
21:43
associated with number of followers and
21:46
it's an income level that makes sense
21:48
for that person and you know do you have
21:51
a partner and what is your financial
21:52
status and all of those things play a
21:55
role in that decision.
21:57
Let's talk platforms. Uh, and let's just
22:01
focus on sort of one at a time because
22:02
I'm going to have a separate question
22:04
around working across different
22:06
platforms and apps. But in terms of the
22:10
best, and the best is subjective. It's
22:12
some function of revshare, the tools
22:15
that are available to the creators. How
22:18
do you think about the best? And I don't
22:20
know if you want to call out the worst.
22:21
Where are the the best platforms right
22:24
now? Let's just focus on the best.
22:26
Especially since I I do like to see
22:29
myself as a thought leader in this
22:30
space. Probably better to just focus on
22:32
the best. Um, and I said this to you
22:35
earlier. I I will all I think you for as
22:38
long as I can remember, I've answered it
22:40
the same way, and I'm sure I'm biased,
22:42
but it's YouTube hands down. Um, YouTube
22:45
really set the stage for prioritizing
22:48
monetization to creators, for
22:51
acknowledging that the content that they
22:53
were bringing to the platform was
22:55
valuable and that they were part of a
22:58
flywheel that was important for, you
23:01
know, goo Google's continued success and
23:06
um, durability, right? So I think um
23:09
making them a key part of the ecosystem,
23:12
ensuring that they would continue to
23:14
create, continue to make money and that
23:17
there was this like boundless potential
23:20
for making money, a clear path for how
23:22
to do that I think was really really
23:25
important and it continues to be a model
23:27
that thrives today for Google the way
23:30
they've set that up. I also want to say
23:32
with YouTube and I was part of this in
23:34
the early days where they really
23:36
approached the creator segment creators
23:41
as consumers of their platform, users of
23:44
their platform if you will, you know, as
23:48
in a talent capacity. They treated them
23:51
like Hollywood treated celebrities and,
23:54
you know, actors and actresses and the
23:56
people behind the scenes that get
23:57
representation. they brought that kind
23:59
of talent management perspective to it
24:01
where I think that really helped in the
24:04
early days of relationship building um
24:06
and gaining sort of goodwill with them
24:09
and and I I think it's something that
24:11
you know has ebbed and flowed with
24:13
different um leadership as that's
24:15
evolved throughout the company. But the
24:18
the YouTube creator program continues. I
24:21
just saw that YouTube hosted events with
24:23
their top creators. They know how
24:25
important that is. They know how
24:27
important it is to keep those people who
24:30
are performing at their highest levels,
24:33
representing YouTube in the best light
24:35
in the market to keep them happy. And
24:37
that group is constantly changing, like
24:40
constantly catering to this group, but
24:42
they also know from a marketing
24:44
standpoint that this is going to be
24:47
captured and filmed and all the things.
24:49
And it's the best kind of market
24:51
marketing to show to the rest of the
24:53
creator economy of like hey if if if you
24:57
make it on YouTube you could come to
24:58
this event and we could support you in
25:00
this capacity and YouTube has also been
25:02
amazing when it comes to you know
25:04
different kinds of monetization like
25:06
they didn't have to you know monetize
25:09
shorts that was a huge thing but they
25:11
did right and it's like because they
25:14
started monetizing I feel like they've
25:15
always gotten this the the flack of like
25:18
not doing enough but they are still so
25:21
eons ahead of the others whereas the
25:23
other platforms
25:25
um that I won't name um have not
25:28
monetized in the same way and um you
25:32
know have instead leaned on sort of
25:34
services and tools and things which are
25:37
also helpful and great or grants you've
25:39
heard of like you know rewards and
25:41
things like which is also great but I
25:45
just love how YouTube partner program
25:47
monetiz ization is like inherent to just
25:50
the business of creating like you know
25:52
that you can create content, post it and
25:54
you will make money off that and it
25:56
depends on how it performs. They have
25:58
the metrics super clear.
26:00
>> Let me ask you a question as someone who
26:02
is not monetizing their YouTube or their
26:05
LinkedIn or anything else. But someone
26:08
was texting with me today and they're
26:10
like where are you seeing more
26:11
engagement? And I'm like, I actually see
26:13
more engagement from the people I'm
26:15
connected to on LinkedIn because
26:17
LinkedIn now has multiple different
26:20
ways. Like I can create a carousel, I
26:22
can upload documents, I can create
26:24
posts, and I feel a more direct
26:28
relationship with the audience because
26:30
there's more comments. The comments are
26:32
from real people. And so, as you were
26:34
talking, and I 100% agree, YouTube has
26:36
created a fantastic ecosystem. One of my
26:39
frustrations though is that you as a
26:42
someone who's creating videos, you're
26:45
limited in your way to engage with the
26:47
end users. Do you do other people give
26:50
you feedback like that or not?
26:51
>> Well, if you said, "What is my second
26:54
favorite?" I was going to say LinkedIn.
26:56
So, we're we're on the same page there.
26:58
Um, and as someone who's now creating on
27:00
LinkedIn and posting regularly, I
27:03
couldn't agree with you more about the
27:06
connection to the people that are on the
27:08
platform and my network and recognizing
27:12
people in the comments and sort of, you
27:14
know, feeding into that back and forth
27:16
in the comments and how valuable that is
27:18
like um, and for for myself as an
27:20
entrepreneur who doesn't have a water
27:22
cooler micro kitchen to go talk to
27:25
people like I love what LinkedIn has
27:27
brought to the table. I think that when
27:29
I'm asked about creator platform, what
27:32
is the best one? I'm always going to
27:34
favor the one that is holistically
27:38
helping them build a durable business.
27:41
And that's where YouTube is. And I I
27:43
know that LinkedIn is doing a lot behind
27:45
the scenes to try to do some more
27:49
monetization directly with um you know,
27:52
creators on the platform, which is
27:54
fantastic. And I've talked to folks
27:55
behind the scenes that I know that they
27:57
want to try some things. I know that
28:00
also video is going to continue to be an
28:02
area of opportunity on LinkedIn and
28:04
that's that's an area of cringe that I
28:06
still have to get over where I need to
28:08
create video to actually monetize which
28:10
that's a separate topic. Um but uh yeah
28:13
I couldn't agree more with you when it
28:15
comes to engagement and um you know the
28:19
opportunity to build a following in um
28:22
you know in a space where I feel
28:23
comfortable like LinkedIn is my
28:24
favorite.
28:25
>> So now let's talk about the
28:26
crossplatform thing like there are
28:29
people who are of the belief that there
28:31
is a flywheel effect that occurs when
28:34
people can f find your content on
28:36
YouTube and LinkedIn and Instagram and
28:39
you need to be everywhere and you need
28:40
to have it in your RSS feed. So it goes
28:42
out to your podcast and you need to be
28:44
everywhere. Where an alternative
28:45
approach is no, I'm going to focus on
28:48
one platform. I'm going to be expert in
28:50
it. I'm going to build the majority of
28:53
my following there. It seems like it's
28:55
very different approaches and maybe it's
28:57
different depending on where you are in
29:00
your career cycle as a sort of content
29:02
creator. How do you think about those
29:05
tradeoffs of whether someone should
29:07
focus on one platform or try to sort of
29:10
cross-link across the platforms?
29:13
>> I mean, I do think what when you're
29:16
creating IP, you're creating a format
29:19
that you want to lean into regularly.
29:20
So, say you mentioned podcast. Say you
29:22
have a podcast idea that you want to
29:24
lean into. It's repeatable. You want to
29:25
keep doing it. I do think you should
29:28
have a platform that in your head that
29:29
is like your primary platform, but you
29:33
should if you're going all in to make
29:35
this a thing. You want this to be bigger
29:37
than just posting videos to YouTube. Say
29:40
that's the platform. Then in my opinion,
29:43
you should already be building the
29:47
spokes around the hub, right? So that
29:51
Instagram and Tik Tok or you know
29:53
wherever you feel like you will find
29:56
people that would connect with this
29:58
content that it's another place for
30:00
cross promotion and driving to YouTube.
30:03
We know that that is actually something
30:05
that happens and also just building new
30:07
audiences on those platforms. So that's
30:09
where like clipping becomes really
30:12
important for that kind of long form
30:13
content. I don't think you need to go to
30:15
town with it where like you're a startup
30:17
and you're like trying to like do all
30:19
like right but I do think that there is
30:22
like some sort of standard distribution
30:25
plan you should have when you upload
30:28
that single piece of content that okay
30:30
so I'm I'm going to create some clips
30:32
that I post on my short form. I've got
30:34
something that I post in my stories.
30:36
I've got my newsletter going where like
30:37
it's you know it's running. If you
30:39
didn't already have a newsletter and you
30:41
were starting the podcast from scratch,
30:42
I would not recommend that you go and
30:44
start the newsletter. I would focus on
30:46
the video and then think about how
30:48
you're amplifying that video around and
30:49
then if you have any other presence
30:51
already like start leaning into that,
30:53
right? So I guess that like I wouldn't
30:57
say you just stick to one. I do think
31:00
that some level of crossosting
31:04
cross promotion to to cultivate that
31:06
cross promotion is necessary from the
31:09
start.
31:09
>> Okay. Uh this is the the yield doctor
31:13
podcast and so normally nobody gets away
31:15
without asking the revenue question. In
31:18
this case I'll amend it slightly. So
31:20
it's either revenue or growing audience
31:23
uh because I think in this case it may
31:25
be just as relevant. But if you had to
31:27
double a creator's revenue over the next
31:30
12 months, let's say a midsize creator,
31:33
where would you tell them to focus
31:35
first?
31:38
>> A midsize creator
31:40
>> and they're trying to double their
31:41
business over the next year.
31:45
>> Um, and I've never worked with them
31:46
before. Correct.
31:47
>> Correct. Yeah.
31:49
>> New client. I I bet that there are, you
31:53
know, pockets of opportunity and
31:54
optimization in their brand partnerships
31:57
that they are not taking advantage of.
32:00
So, I will say if they've already worked
32:01
with management or representation, it's
32:03
possible they've optimized these areas.
32:05
But if they haven't, that is the obvious
32:07
lane where I'm on track to more than
32:10
double revenue for my creator management
32:12
business for these reasons. and as
32:14
simple as you know what are you charging
32:17
and how are you bundling formats and
32:20
platforms um you know how do you think
32:22
about oneoff versus multiformat
32:25
multi-integration
32:27
um
32:28
>> sorry just describe those terms for
32:30
people who aren't as familiar
32:32
>> yeah so you know um a creator will post
32:36
content to YouTube one long form format
32:40
or they may be posting short form
32:41
content to Instagram and Tik Tok or
32:44
LinkedIn and X and um YouTube shorts and
32:48
they might may also have a newsletter
32:50
with the long form if it's a podcast.
32:52
They also have an audio format. These
32:54
are all surfaces that could be
32:57
interesting to a brand to package into a
33:00
partnership. So,
33:02
if this creator has not doesn't really
33:06
have experience in brand partnerships,
33:07
hasn't been really managed before, um
33:11
it's possible that they are just kind of
33:13
doing a lot of one-offs, which is part
33:16
for the course really in brand
33:18
partnerships. And that's a problem
33:20
because so now wearing my other hat as a
33:22
consultant adviser, brands should be
33:25
working with creators multiple times
33:27
over. How much data can you get from one
33:31
format on one platform to determine
33:34
whether you should be working with them
33:36
again in another capacity? So knowing
33:39
that brands should be doing that now I
33:42
wear my manager hat. Creators should be
33:44
pushing back to say I don't do oneoff
33:47
deals. However, I do package certain
33:50
things as an entry point for beginning a
33:52
partnership. How would you like to to
33:55
partner? This is and tell me more about
33:57
your goals. this is how I would design a
34:00
partnership that makes sense given your
34:02
goals, right? So, having that back and
34:04
forth and creative leveling up of how
34:07
they think about entry points into
34:09
partnering with brands and building
34:11
long-term partnerships, you know, if
34:12
part if they did a partnership across
34:15
one piece of content, multi if it
34:16
performed well, we have every reason to
34:19
go back and renew it and renewals don't
34:22
happen. It just be it's very
34:24
transactional is what I feel when that
34:27
level of strategy and access to brands
34:30
is not there because because they're
34:32
creating content. They're like doing QA
34:35
over here. Oh, they're building a
34:36
product over here. They don't have time
34:39
even to do outbound. So whatever comes
34:42
in the inbox, they just, you know,
34:45
handle it. But so even just looking at
34:47
that as areas of opportunity, you will
34:50
double your revenue. Uh
34:53
what is one thing that you believe that
34:57
is contrarian to what most other people
34:59
in the create economy would say that
35:02
they believe?
35:04
>> It's the I'll go back to the mega
35:06
influencer concept where um I think that
35:10
you know it's a lot of these mega
35:11
influencers like the Mr. Beast and the
35:13
Dude Perfect um they have incredible
35:16
reach. They have a track record where
35:17
they've worked with the biggest and best
35:19
brands and they're hard to get a hold
35:21
of. And I do think that there is this I
35:23
feel like there needs to be a term
35:24
around this and maybe there is a term
35:26
and I don't know, but I think when
35:27
brands get in touch maybe with the teams
35:30
behind these incredible creators and
35:32
maybe there's like a little window of
35:34
partnering with them, they almost get
35:36
stareyed about it and there's like
35:41
any number will make sense, but it's
35:43
like the math isn't going to math,
35:45
right? like you could like
35:48
so I think that there is a point where
35:50
the math won't map and it actually like
35:53
to what I was saying earlier these micro
35:55
influencers who don't have a million
35:57
followers but are like authorities on
36:01
specific niches right and can really
36:03
speak to a specific group of people a
36:06
specific type of workflow or routine or
36:08
what have you can be really powerful but
36:11
you need to work with multiple of them
36:12
but it can be very powerful if you work
36:15
in that way with graders. And I would
36:18
argue if you worked with a hundred
36:20
prevetted targeted, you know, micro
36:24
influencer c different categories and
36:25
niches, I bet they would work better
36:29
than the one mega influencer.
36:31
>> Okay, given you've opened the door, I've
36:33
got to ask you the question. Has anyone
36:36
taken a run at trying to bundle up
36:39
different types of micro influences into
36:43
a viable package? So that because my
36:46
guess or my understanding is that mostly
36:49
this is situations where an advertiser
36:51
is going to an influencer or creator and
36:54
saying I want to work with you. Is there
36:57
currently a model where as an advertiser
37:00
I could go to you and say I want to buy
37:04
a hundred different micro influencers
37:07
across the tech space right now and I
37:10
need them all to be vetted. I need them
37:12
all to be quality. Does that exist or is
37:14
the industry not evolved to that yet?
37:16
>> No, it does exist. Um so uh I think the
37:20
most sort of rudimentary is not the
37:22
right word. The most basic one are these
37:24
talent agencies and talent management
37:26
companies where they already represent
37:29
rosters of creators. So in theory, when
37:32
they're talking to some of these top
37:33
brands, they'll want to pull these
37:36
creators into bigger deals, right? And
37:38
then once they get win the deal, then
37:40
allocate it across different creators.
37:43
But, you know, that doesn't always work
37:45
perfectly by the way. And then you know
37:47
managers and agents they still have to
37:49
negotiate with each creator of like is
37:52
this okay? Is this okay? They want it
37:54
this way but they want it here in a
37:55
different way. Now we're seeing some
37:57
platforms for example like there's this
38:00
company that I love called Statusphere
38:02
which I've just gotten to know. um and
38:05
they have created a platform for short
38:07
form content where um certain brands may
38:11
want to work with a certain category of
38:14
influencers across a single brief,
38:17
right? And maybe there's like a limited
38:19
time of the brief is available and you
38:20
need to deliver this piece of content
38:22
and very limited flexibility like it's
38:25
like this or no, right? So if they do it
38:28
that way, they can actually get many
38:30
creators on board to deliver something
38:32
in the same time frame and you know same
38:35
kind of category. Uh I think that's
38:37
really interesting because you know and
38:39
in some cases they've already negotiated
38:41
like usage rights and things like in
38:43
order to participate I've already agreed
38:45
to these things. So we're starting to
38:47
see um it already prevetted to your
38:49
point. So yes, pools of creators you can
38:53
negotiate with brands and have greater
38:55
leverage, but it can get complicated. It
38:57
depends on how prevetted and secured
38:59
those, you know, all those nuances are
39:02
because every creator is different and
39:03
how they create content and all the
39:04
things.
39:05
>> That is incredibly interesting. It's
39:07
actually what I was wondering if we'd
39:08
got that sort of click to accept terms
39:10
and conditions.
39:11
>> Yes. Yes.
39:13
>> Um Monica, this has been an incredibly
39:15
interesting conversation. uh as we wrap
39:18
up, what is the best way for people to
39:20
learn more about you and the work that
39:22
you and your team are doing?
39:25
>> Yes, I think the best way is to
39:27
following me on um LinkedIn where I am
39:30
posting regularly at least four times a
39:33
week during the week. Um and I it's
39:36
really about the creator economy.
39:38
sometimes a little bit about my career
39:39
journey, but mostly about the different
39:42
um hats that I wear in the space and,
39:45
you know, really wanting to make
39:47
creators, you know, uh my mission to
39:50
claim their rightful place in media and
39:52
then for brands to fully recognize the
39:54
ROI that creators can bring um to the
39:56
table for them.
39:57
>> Brilliant. Thank you so much for taking
39:59
the time, Monica.
40:00
>> Awesome. Thank you, James, for having
40:02
me.