Latest / 🎙️ Rebuild & Fulfill Real conversations on burnout, rebuilding, and becoming stronger than before. / The Peaceful Warrior (Uncensored): From Addiction, MS & Rock Bottom to Redemption | Episode 25

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The Peaceful Warrior (Uncensored): From Addiction, MS & Rock Bottom to Redemption | Episode 25 · 🎙️ Rebuild & Fulfill Real conversations on burnout, rebuilding, and becoming stronger than before.

• Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: What happens when you've spent your entire life trying to convince the world that you're okay while privately falling apart? What if the career you've worked so hard to build, or the success everyone admires, or even the image you've carefully maintained, is actually hiding the very pain that's slowly destroying you? our guest today knows exactly what that feels like. Jacob Maltac appeared to have everything together. Jacob Multack: Okay. Thank Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: He had built a successful career, climbed the corporate ladder, and he was doing everything he thought he was supposed to do. But beneath the surface, he was quietly battling addiction, shame, and struggles that very few people ever saw. Then life delivered another devastating blow, a diagnosis of multiple sclerosis. What followed wasn't just a health crisis, it became the unraveling of nearly everything he had built. He lost his career, his marriage, his home, he even lost his identity. But somewhere in the middle of that darkness, Something remarkable happened. Jacob stopped asking how to survive and started learning how to rebuild. Today he's not only living in recovery, he's become someone who now walks beside others during the darkest moments of their lives He is also the author of the upcoming memoir From Rock Bottom to Redemption, a deeply honest account of the journey that transformed his life. And this today is his story. Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Rebuild and Fulfill, where we have real conversations about burnout, rebuilding, resilience, and becoming stronger through life's greatest challenges. I'm Kelsey Dunbar. Jacob Multack: Okay. Marc Rogala Co-Founder S2T: And I'm Mark Ridala. Jacob Multack: Okay. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: Every week we sit down with people whose stories remind us that rebuilding isn't about pretending life never knocked you down. It's about learning how to stand back up with greater strength, purpose, and perspective. Today's guest embodies that mission in an extraordinary way. Jacob, welcome to Rebuild and Fulfill. Jacob Multack: Thank you for having me. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: It is our pleasure. So, Jacob, I want to begin before addiction, before multiple sclerosis. Someday I'll actually say that word properly. I get tripped up every time. before recovery, because from the outside, people would have looked at your life and probably thought you had everything together, you had built a successful career, you were climbing professionally, you were providing for your family. So, looking back now, how different was the life everyone saw? From the life you are actually living on the inside. Jacob Multack: Honestly, it was one of the biggest fronts that there was. You know, I did that portrayal that life was better than ever. I had the financial means. I grew up in a very middle class, lower middle class town. I had worked my way up, you know, through multiple years of working hard. you know, in financial world and marketing of it all. Got to the next level called, called Barrington is what I refer to it as. Felt like I had made it and I was drowning. My family didn't know. They thought, well, he got the house. He's doing great. Cause that's what being a man was really measured by where I grew up, you know, where the, where your means were, what kind of car you were driving, all that toxic nonsense that doesn't make a man at all. I feel like coming to figure out after the years. Um, and nobody really knew anything. I slowly started chasing a diagnosis at the time for about seven years. I went to multiple doctors and started with, you might have a tear in your, a muscle on your shoulder. Let's do a surgery. And, but before that here's 120 to 150 in orcos a day or a week or a month. And that's where everything really started for me in the world of addiction. Seven years, I chased the diagnosis. had multiple surgeries. The medicines just kept getting refilled over and over. I got to a point that my tolerance had built so much that doing 40 Narcos a day wasn't cutting it any longer and I was still getting dope sick on some level to the point that I started snorting heroin. All while actually maintaining this job and the career, but know, sinking more and more day after day after day to the point that it became noticeable. It did for the people I worked with and then eventually it was terminated. and three months after the diagnosis. At the time I looked at it like it was something pretty awesome that I had a name to this thing because I was told I was crazy by half the doctors I was going to. I was drug seeking, I was told that by my own family. Two people in my family happened to be ophthalmologists who've done MS studies and they thought that I was full of shit when I called them and told them the diagnosis. I mean, it was validating in the sense that... Everybody really truly did start to think I was going crazy, but it turns out I was flaring up so often that once I had a name, I would then go to the hospital and get steroids, IV steroids. And that was the start of that journey. Marc Rogala Co-Founder S2T: first of all, thank you for being on the podcast. For those that are our listeners, Jacob's my recovery brother. I've gotten to know him real well over the last couple months. I can completely relate to his story as far as the opiate addiction goes. I cannot relate to his story on the MS side of things, and that's why he's got my ultimate respect. You kind of alluded to this already, Jacob Multack: . Marc Rogala Co-Founder S2T: you know, that we as as addicts become incredibly good at wearing masks. Sometimes success, sometimes it's humor, sometimes it's simply busy st staying busy enough that nobody nobody ever asks what we're really doing. But eventually though life has a way of exposing what we're trying to hide. you know, when you get diagnosed with the multiple sclerosis, okay, Jacob Multack: So. Marc Rogala Co-Founder S2T: take us back to that when you first learned that you actually had that. not just what happened medically, but emotionally. What did that diagnosis do to your sense of identity and your vision for the future at that particular time? Jacob Multack: Sure. I'll lay out the exact moment that it all happened. So I'd now at this point had been to multiple different doctors. I had been had the surgeries I've mentioned and I finally found a good primary care doctor. I was living in Arlington. No, I was in Barrington at the time, but she was in Arlington Heights. So I went out there one day and we're having a talk, still trying to figure this out. And she actually treated me like a human being. So it wasn't a matter of, you know, your drug seeking or this. She looked me in the eye and we had a conversation. During the conversation, what had happened is I'd sometimes would lose my thought mid-sentence or I would just go off into like a space. And she had happened by, you by the grace of God in one of our appointments. She was a Friday before Labor Day, 2013. She sent me for an MRI and I didn't hear anything until Tuesday morning going back after labor to him in my garage having a cigarette waiting to go to work and my phone rings about seven in the morning And it's my doctor and she says hey, I want to freak you out, but I need you to come in now And at that point I had a daughter It was just 15 months like the love of my life despite drowning in addiction at the time and I thought I had brain cancer and she was gonna tell me that it was terrible and there was no hope and I went in there and she said I'm not gonna bill show you to let you know you have MS. I knew of MS pretty well because there was about 45 people in the town I grew up in, Homewood, Illinois, on the particular block, two, know, two, between four block span that have MS. So I'd seen it, friends of mine's parents, different things like that I grew up with. I didn't know it to this level, but it had a name finally, to be told honestly with you. When she told me that, it was a relief in a lot of ways that I'd been searching for this for so many years and... my family, doctors, friends, coworkers tell me I was losing my mind, I was crazy. So it was validating in a lot of ways. And to be told that it was MS and I knew people who had it, that it wasn't terminal, it was kind of a relief in the moment. What would then come with that after the fact was medication, how you're gonna treat it, the reality of the name. I already had a bad gait at that time, I was starting to use a cane. And It wasn't that many years after that that I would wind up raising my child alone. so that was terrifying. You know, at the time I was like, okay, I can try to do this. I went back to work. I'd go down the street cause that's where my neurologist office was. And we started off with this IV infusion called Ty Sabry, which at the time they said had chemo like side effects. And I didn't know better prior to me actually having chemo later in life, but it would make you really lethargic. But I, you know, I was working at this big time position. you know, the banking man in a marketing guy with this private practice that I started with the guy I'd been working with for 13 years at this point. So I go to the appointments, I come back to work and I just wasn't the same person. And at that point I'm also figuring out how to handle my drug addiction because that didn't go away. And the amount of pills, despite me making a lot of money, had its finite amount at the end. Like, you know, there's only so many people I could call or so many places I could go until I got set up with somebody who introduced me to heroin. And I started snorting that for a while. And then because of a fight him and I had, I kind of lost that connection. I wasn't necessarily searching for it. So I discovered Kratom, which at the time I forgot a very high concentrated one. Spent about $500 a day on that, but that was more potent than any heroin I'd ever snorted or 40 pills. It was a dropper bottle this big, put a couple of drops in a glass of water and I was like taking 25 pills. What that allowed me to do at that time though, this is prior to losing my job, but it's to show you how deep the addiction was, is that I knew there was no acetaminophen in kratom, which means that I could drink again. And then that double addiction lasted until I'd eventually lost the job a few months later. I had to see, I actually just lost the house. Moving out of the dream, I thought it was a dream at the time. lost both cars, me and my wife at the time. She had a, or has a daughter, so I had a stepdaughter at the time and my daughter was 15 months. So both cars lost, house lost, job lost, both of our dogs literally died within a month. And I moved back home, which I'd run away from at the age of 17 until I first then graduated the first time. So now I'm back home, trying to figure out what my life will be and then the drinking got really bad. got worse at that point. The pills and things like that, I kind of lost a lot of access to because I lost my health insurance. I lost my finances, even buying them on the streets. A crowd of them couldn't afford. So I just switched that right into alcohol. And that became my life. and did not have a lot of hope at that time. Marc Rogala Co-Founder S2T: Yeah we I know I'm familiar with I call it Kratum, but Kratum. were you still buying pills on the street with the alcohol at that particular time or no? Jacob Multack: Once I lost the job, so I was diagnosed September of 2013, lost my career in January of 2014. And then the house followed within a couple of months and then moving back towards where my family had now migrated to in New Lenox, Illinois. I got Marc Rogala Co-Founder S2T: Yeah. Jacob Multack: a small rental property that couldn't hold like 30 % of the shit I had and it turns out it was just shit in the end, but I didn't know better at the time. I thought that it was just a picture of my life being jammed down or minimized or... Defeated, I guess, in lot of ways. Marc Rogala Co-Founder S2T: When you when you couldn't afford to to crad and you lost the insurance because of the job so went straight to Boozden at that particular time? Jacob Multack: Not to there. Marc Rogala Co-Founder S2T: Well. How long did that last if you don't mind me asking before you sought out treatment for that? Jacob Multack: Booz, I was a straight alcoholic. I'd call it about three and a half years. I got to the point of two bottles of vodka a day. I was still married to my child's mom at the time. So from about 15 months to about the time she was five, before we got divorced. And then a couple of months after that, a month prior for my next going in for treatment with MS, and I could dig into any of that if it needs help with the storyline. But seven years after diagnosis, I was on every medication you could think of. Um, probably started with IV infusions, uh, always was worse. Go to the hospital, get a steroid treatment. Cause I was, it would call that a relapse also just a different type of relapse. Then I went to shots. Uh, you'd have to give intramuscular. So I did those in my stomach. Uh, that sent me to the ER, uh, twice because of those would get infected. Um, then I was taking pills that were $5,000 a month for 30 pills. And MS medication doesn't promise a cure, doesn't reverse the damage. It might slow down the progress and the side effects were pretty awful. To the point that I went back to an infusion called the ocrevus. And in between these years of taking these medications and moving out this way, I stopped seeing my original neurologist. So I was chasing different neurologists looking for better answers and multiple, know, MRI after MRI after MRI. I didn't really find that or find any sort of a solution or answer despite in the full-fledged alcoholism at that point I still had in the back of my head that maybe there's an answer for this or some way to control it. So I back to my original neuro and he had told me about this study being done in Northwestern. It was not FDA approved. It was a stem cell transplant. You had to have failed basically every medication for MS or be have enough brain damage, you know, from your MS that you were considered one of the worst cases. but then a couple of months he had me talking to the doctor over there. I had to flush out the last medication I'd taken for MS, which took about a six month, flush out. And then I was like the next part of the vision in life really started to take place. Cause at this point I'm on a cane. my daughter's five. and I was, she didn't have a mom. didn't have a very supportive family. So at that point I thought, okay. This is something I'll have to do in life because I'm going to be in a wheelchair otherwise. And I don't know what would happen to her. It's her mother, you know, fight substance use disorder herself. But didn't think that she needed to go to treatment. I did. So I went to treatment and started the process of, you know, working towards the STEM cell. I got sober in 2017 and a few months later, this entire process would begin and it took about a year to get set up. flushing things out, getting approved with insurance companies, getting accepted to the trial, interviews at Northwestern, etc. That I was approved for this procedure. I knew that if I didn't do it, like I said, would, my kid would, it was me and her. And that, you know, that's all I ever wanted to be honest with you. And that's a whole other story from the time, but she needed me. So I had to sign up for this thing, sign the papers that said I risk dying because I was common. because it wipes out your entire immune system and they give you more chemo than they'll give to any person with anything else in life. So I was accepted and that's where the next chapter really started to begin. Marc Rogala Co-Founder S2T: was with the stem cell treatment, did the doctors come to you and say that sobriety was a condition for you to actually get the treatment? Is that was that a motivator at all? Or what was your motivation to actually seek out the treatment and get sober? Jacob Multack: Being there for my child, Marc Rogala Co-Founder S2T: Okay. Jacob Multack: was my motive. If I'm being dead honest, I had tried to go into a treatment, left, now had been separated and the divorce was getting finalized. I was moving into my new place that I look around one day, this is after leaving treatment and it was empty and my... It just was like a flash, a spotlight on my life and all the shit I had lost at that point. From the house to the goods to the car. Literally, I'm sleeping on a floor, eventually an air mattress from this house that was in Barrington, Illinois. I thought that I had made it, so to speak. At that point, I was thinking about ending it. I truly was. don't know, something happened with me, so I wound up calling. my buddy Brad, who I had met in treatment the first time, just drunk out of my mind at this point that maybe I needed to come back because a moment of thought that my daughter might be better off without me. then, know, that's the devil both sides going. The it and the super ego fighting the whole thing out. So I called him up and he said, how about I said, I'll come back maybe tomorrow. And he knew, you know, because he dealt with people in these situations that the drunk who says it tonight might not think that thing in the morning. He said, how about you come now? And he sent somebody to pick me up. And at this point, I went back to the treatment that I'd first gone to and switched off to a new therapist. And then this is where, I'd say God was in my life more than ever. And I didn't grow up with a lot of that stuff, but I can't explain it any other way to be honest with you. Because without this second chance of treatment where I really fulfilled the full, and I did five weeks of what we call PHP, which was. You know, housing was provided by the treatment center, moved to four weeks of IOP, tried to figure out what my new life would look like for my daughter. That's at the time, the only reason I didn't take my own life and that I fought because I wouldn't at that time fight for myself. I didn't feel myself worthy. I lived in a lot of the world of guilt and shame my whole life. So I found a great counselor when I went back, his name was Kent. He was older guy, been through divorce, I've been through addiction, you know, was a self declared addict, alcoholic, worked at prisons now, was giving back. And that sparked a lot of where I'm at today. It gave me hope. The first time I was in treatment, I actually left to go see my daughter because she was getting teeth extracted at the time. This is before I'd wind up taking full-time custody. So me and her mother were still co-raising her. And a second time, She's with her mother and out for her sister's homecoming and she's mauled by a German shepherd. I'm in treatment at this time. So she's at the hospital, I get this call, frantic call. They go, okay, now I gotta go, she needs me. And so I'm telling the counselor this and he says, he taught me that in that moment is the thing called the oxygen mask, which I now use and I've said it thousands of times to people in the past almost nine years. He said, Hey, have ever been on a plane with your kid? And he knows she was my world. And like that's, but he also knew what the heart of addiction looked like. So he says, you ever been on a plane with your kid? And at that time we hadn't been. He said, but have you been on a plane? You've seen it? And I said, yeah. He goes, what happens? You know, when the flight attendants come out there and start telling a story about the plane might get rocky, things might go bad. The oxygen mask will drop. said, what do they tell them to do when they were with a couple of kids? And honestly, at the time I said, they probably put it on your kids. You know, because that's where my mind was. He said, no, not at all. He goes, they tell you, put it on yourself first. Because if you go to put it on your kids, by the time you get it to yourself, you might be out of oxygen and dead. And then those kids are as good as dad in this scenario that he played out, which was perfect for me. And I said, something like a light bulb went off because I felt very selfish being in treatment. Like what a piece of shit I was and all this. nobody talked worse about me than me. I could be the most self-deprecating person that, I mean, sure, it's common in addiction. which is, know, because can get into the later part, but when I'm groups and things over the past year, I say, we don't have guilt and shame in these rooms. Throw that shit out. Cause Marc Rogala Co-Founder S2T: Yeah. Jacob Multack: I've lived it and I felt it and it's paralyzing at times or you don't feel worthy of getting treatment or sobriety. You know, Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: So throughout your story, one person continually shows up as your why, and obviously that's your daughter, Mac. And there were moments where you questioned whether or not you'd be the father she deserved. And yet she also became one of the biggest. reasons that you kept fighting. So how did fatherhood change the way that you approached your recovery? Jacob Multack: Fatherhood was the motivating factor and it was the daily inspiration. So at this point now, say 2017, so she's coming up to be five. I knew it was time was now. So her mother would, despite us being separated, didn't think she had a problem. She wasn't going to go to treatment. And I wasn't going to have my kids go through a life without a loving parent. Because that was a lot of what I needed to heal myself. Right. It one of those people, well, the baby, it'll fix everything. But in this instance, it did for me because it helped heal me, you know, childhood version of me, too. So I look back on it. She was my motivation. Then it became just the two of us. Like I said, I'd go for a stem cell in 2019, May of 2019. took full-time custody from her two months prior. guess her mother was having her invents and police at her house and things like that. So it was just the two of us at this point. I was working side jobs. I was working as a waiter at a restaurant in the town I went to treatment at, but I could barely walk at this point. So was a fleeting moment at that time. And truth be told, it was brutal. But I thank God for all of this today. I thank God for MS today because that led me on the journey I'm currently on right now. My daughter is about to start high school in about three weeks. And I watched her go from first grade when I went into the hospital from Stem Cell to starting high school in a few weeks and all the different clubs she's in and NJHS. And she's had her support for me from every second of the way. You know, after I... wound up having STEM so I did get a proof for disability. Based on my old life, that was one decent thing from that old life that I thought was the life of my dreams. It turns out it was pure nonsense, toxic masculinity in a lot of ways. I have this car, who gives a shit? It does not, to me, not show any sign of what a man truly is. I do more things today, 10 % of the income that I used to make, and I feel more like a man today than I ever did, truly. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: So what do you hope Max someday understands about the journey that you've been through? Or I mean she've probably already been very transparent with her to this point. Jacob Multack: Well, I'll tell you, so like I said, she's about five when I get sober. Once I leave treatment, I knew, and this helps me now for my job and the different things I've done helping others is that what am I gonna do once I leave treatment? You know, it's great what I call that now when I go back to that treatment afterwards that you're in a bubble in a sense. You know, you're being dropped, know, checked urine drops for, you know, whether or not you're drinking or drugging while you're there. You have people taking you to meetings in a van. You know, things like that are provided for. And if you move to the next level of IOP, you can leave more frequently or go get a job and things like that and rent a place by the week, but you still have some accountability. Once you leave after that, this is where relapse is such a high rate is that you're on your own. You know, I saw while I was in treatment that they didn't set you up for what do you do the day when you get home. And that's a huge part of my component of therapy that I give in different capacities. when I'm dealing with addiction is what does it look like when you leave? Where's that meeting you're going to or especially at treatments on people might be two hours away or from a different state. So while you're here, you have these people that are supposed to help you. Let's make them work and do their jobs. And I got a little bit jaded about it at the time too, but I saw how broken it was. I said to them, what are you going to do? Where are you going to go? What's the support system? It's kind of like doing a safety plan, which I do in the ER for people that once they're leaving there. So at the time, I knew I had to do something that was going to meetings. That was my crew from treatment. It was local to that place. So my daughter came with me. She was five, but they had open meetings on Saturday nights. It was always a speaker meeting. And she said, you know, she was little, she'd put her headphones on. It was me and her and like my crew from, and you build more and more people as you go to the same meeting over and over, which I was always a big advocate of doing, you you start to see the same face week after week and maybe, hey, you know, and then who knows, I might be your best friend in the world in five, 10 years, which happened to be my case. So she came to the meeting. She was almost like the mascot there. I had a buddy, Dan, his wife was a nurse. We had, go back to alumni a lot for treatment, which was not too far from where I went for meetings, but at that point I couldn't bring her. So my buddy from treatment, his wife would take my daughter out. They'd go do their thing and him and I would go to alumni. And I was, you know, immersed in that world and that was my only people at that time because the people that were my people or the people I partied with or drank with or tailgated with it when I got sober they no longer sent those invitations. So she lived in that world and she's got two parents that are addicts, alcoholics and you know if you get in the world of psychology some people say there's genetic components I think it's more environmental personally you know but usually you're watching your parents growing up. So I don't hide any of it. I don't have that guilt or shame I once had. And I speak of all of my misfortunes, if you will, but I don't do it with guilt or shame. I'm human and I made human mistakes. As I say now, life-lifed. MS really was a humbling I needed in a lot of ways though too, because it put me on the road to my purpose, which wasn't what I thought it to be. Make that money, you're a man, it's garbage. Service work is what makes a person a man in my book. There's a lot of ways to do that too. So my daughter was well aware of the system. Her maternal grandmother, alcoholic, now is fighting her alcohol induced dementia. And her maternal grandfather the same. So it's in the blood, it's in the head. And I don't want her to go down those same journeys or at least have the education about what it does. And she's seen it and eventually the earmuffs came off at the meetings and she got a little bit older. And she heard some stories, including mine, because I've spoken and told my story at that meeting multiple times too. So don't hide it because that's all that bullshit personification. I talk about this in group a lot. There's really three types of people in this world. It's the one that's I'm perfect and there's never anything wrong. And we all know it's those types of people, but it's all bullshit. It's a front and kind of like I did it because I like this one. I'm aware of it. But, know, if you talk to anybody with any depth, you realize we all got some shit in life. And the second type was I'm an alcoholic or I got this and it's MS's fault or it's my mom's and listen, I might've had a moment in life been like that myself. And then there's a third type who is the people in the rooms, whether or not it be a psychiatric unit or maybe it's a dual diagnosis, maybe it's substance use, maybe it's anything. I say, you're the third type of person. Well, I call the baddest M.R. motherfuckers in the world if I can speak frankly. Marc Rogala Co-Founder S2T: Yep. Jacob Multack: So once I know I got some shit because life, life's and I want to work on it. And I'm not going to let the world or guilt or shame keep me back from it. So when I go in there and I said the guilt and shame to let shout the window, you're the baddest people I know. And I keep that because I mean it all. So would you shame somebody that had cancer going for chemotherapy? And people look at me like, no. I then why do you shame yourselves? Did you do this because it was so fucking awesome and fun drinking and drug and partying? No, it's because we were killing something. Usually it's these overthinking and the thoughts and you know, and that's usually based on trauma. Which now I've learned that I tell people and it's comforting to a lot is the thing called aces, which are adverse childhood experiences. Could be seeing violence, a victim. There's a multitude of things that make that list, but five or more growing up, statistically have an 80 % chance of alcoholism. So you tell those types of things, you do some psychoeducation and people are like, oh, no shit. So it wasn't like what the world told me I was, know, this wine over this or that. Or I tell people in the other spectrum with the opioid use to this opioid use is that 80 % of heroin addicts started in a doctor's office. And those are real statistics. Especially when people were there, you know, here's 150 of these and that. And then of course, you're, you know, you build up a tolerance, but most of the, if you have a real thing like MS or there's a variety of other things, the pain doesn't go away. So now you need tend to do the same thing that two used to do. And then the doctor's like, nope. You know, here, let's try Gabapentin or some kind of thing that at the point doesn't help full. And then it leads to the heroin and leads to the other things like that. So when you start putting some education behind it, instead of what the whole world tells you with the stupid ass stereotypes or you're this, you know, your piece of this or that or this. It gets people, you know, you could shift your perspective a little bit. And that's what I'm trying to do when I do groups. I want to talk to people like during my internship on the chemical dependency team in the hospital. You know, lot of self-disclosure. because you feel judged, especially in a hospital setting. So I go in there for that part of my internship and say, I'm an alcoholic addict. And the people that I worked with that were training me did the same thing. And I could see the impact or the difference because I'd go into the rooms first. And when I first started and the nurses or doctors come in with that authoritarian type of thing, people don't want to talk about that with them as a patient. They're like, oh, they're going to judge me. And a lot of times you feel that way versus I walk in or somebody on the team of you know, substance use team at the time, you say to them, you know, I'm not judging you because I am you. OK. And I also want to show you that I only am I you, so there's no judgment from me, but maybe you can get some hope, seeing what it could look like on the other end of this. All right. And to many people that are, you know, therapists or especially in the world of addiction that have are in recovery to me or the the ones that I want to hear from. You know, I'm not trying to shit on people that study and have a passion for it, but I'd rather hear from somebody who's climbed out of the hole versus somebody who read about somebody who climbed out of the hole. That's just my personal experiences and things like that. And God bless everybody who's trying to help him, help in this world, but that's what I needed. It was somebody that said, let me get you out of this hole and I'll tell you what I did. And I followed his lead and, you know, made my own variety of it, but that was the basis of it all. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: If you could speak Marc Rogala Co-Founder S2T: Yeah. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: with a South Cider accent, I would swear you're Mark talking right now. Because he says Marc Rogala Co-Founder S2T: god. I mean I I'm Jacob Multack: Yeah. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: all the same stuff that you do verbatim. Marc Rogala Co-Founder S2T: My brother, man. I told him. I I told when we started talking, I'm like, holy shit, are we are we related somehow or what, man? Jacob Multack: Perfect. Marc Rogala Co-Founder S2T: Seriously. I mean Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: Yeah, no, it's pretty awesome. Marc Rogala Co-Founder S2T: it's like Jacob Multack: I did love that too. Yep. I found my people, you know, people that I now I look back on it instead of why me or fuck MS, no, thank God for MS. I look at all my struggles were part of my story because it makes me pretty good at what I do when I'm talking to others, going through similar struggles, whether it be an incurable disease, divorce, single parent, alcoholism, drug addiction. okay. Let's go. I'm not judging you ever cause I am you. And the more, you know, those moments where in life that I had, now I look back as a blessing because it was fuel for what I'm trying to do now, which is help people and make a difference that now I feel like a purpose. Marc Rogala Co-Founder S2T: Yeah, it's like I think I know the answer this question, but I'm just gonna say it just for the audience and for Kelsey to hear too, but I think he knows the answer to this too. Like when I speak at the hospitals, and you know, I I can't even talk about the physical component of what you're going through with them as you know, I talk about the underlying mental health and the addiction and the alcoholism and so forth, and I get into my story about what I lost and all that shit. And everybody's come up to you, I feel so sorry for us. Don't feel sorry for me. I wouldn't change Jacob Multack: Thank Marc Rogala Co-Founder S2T: a goddamn thing because you want to know why? It made me the man that I am today. And I'm sure you probably feel the same way getting to know you the last couple of months. Jacob Multack: Absolutely, it truly did and I feel stronger now than I ever did in my life. And that's the beauty of once you get to the other side of it and not living in guilt or shame or hiding from it. No, I embrace who I was. I'm a fucking warrior now and I tell other people instead of, I wasn't this poor. No, I went through some shit. I had some trauma. You know, we all have our story, right? Getting MS is no different than someone else has a different story, but it's, you know, something that fucks up our entire psyche or destroys who we think we are at the time. And it's like, shit. So it's like, I'm in that tornado, but then I came out of it thinking, I'm cleaner than ever. I can think clearly again now and I can embrace who I am. I'm not a piece of shit. Right. I was the one, you know, self-deprecating probably more than most of the world could have anyways, but I saw it. So now I see others that are in that store when I... Don't come with anything that could be perceived as anything but love. Like, you know, I am you. There is a way out of this. Okay? I'm not judging you, I'm not judging what you've been through. You know, you've got your shit. And I do truly believe that it's mostly, well, entirely in my opinion, trauma-based. And again, would you guilt or shame people that have been through some of the biggest shit in life? Right? When you get to the depths of it, you you look from a surface, oh, you bomber, this or that. I also had an uncle that... you know, different dad as my mom, but he fought in Korea. He came back and had PTSD, formed an addiction and then wound up being homeless. And as a little boy, my mom and I would go looking through him and the alleys of Chicago find him. And I saw about people talk to other homeless people, know, your piece of shit or stepping over them. I was like, this is a man, this is just a human being. you know, as a young boy, so. A lot of the patients that I saw at the first hospital I internshiped at, there was about 40 % illness rate. Right? And people weren't, they were looking at them, even the people, lot of the doctors and different people look down on people, that perception of it all. And it doesn't get people a chance to work on shit in life. I mean, if I can rant on for a minute, maybe this will be edited together, but that's what got me into where I go to church now. I grew up with Jewish father and a Jewish Catholic mother, but no church, no temple, no perception of God, anything like that, except for like the girl that I dated in my early twenties. I go to different churches and things and I always felt like it was the most judgmental people in the world. So I didn't, had a hard time looking for that higher power, which is I think a huge component to maintaining sobriety, for me at least. Again, there are multiple ways of doing this. I just like to say what worked for me, because it might help somebody else. So I had a friend that said, I'm going to check out this church. And I said, fuck no. Why? Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: Yeah. Jacob Multack: Worked on me and say, you drunken garbage man, or you addict, or this, that, this. Please just try it for me, please. I said, okay, fuck it. At this point, I'll try anything to try to change my life. So I'd gone in there. And to this day, it's still my church, but I go in there and think, very skeptical, thinking, oh, fine. I can tell I did it. I didn't do shit for me. So I go in. So there's a pastor speaking. So I go on alone this day and he's up there talking and this is you couldn't have been more divine in my book that this was the sermon he was preaching that day because this has changed my life entirely. it was who was Noah? He's starting his rant and you know, he starts his service and I'm thinking I heard a Noah's ark. You know, Noah was a drunk. I go, the fuck did he just say? Like as if I was talking with somebody next to me alone, like I'd never heard this before. Who was Jacob? I'm like, well, that's my name. He goes, a liar. Okay. You know, who was Stamson, a womanizer. And he goes through all these lists and like, wait, tell me more about this. And then in the same sermon, he gets into Matthew from the, you get to the New Testament, the whole who was, I don't know what he would compare them to these days, but hated and disgusting and all the other things, taking taxes from his own people. was, you know, one of the biggest books and a lot of, you know, it's new scripture for the New Testament. I'm like, wait, I need to know more about this. And it turns out the story of the 99 sheep. You know, the one that got away was the one that God went after, not the 99 who didn't think they needed repentance or the ones that put on that bullshit front of perfection, but the one who got away. Well, if I couldn't relate to that more than ever, I was like, oh, this is my place. And, you know, that's been a huge component in my life. that's a, you know, again, I have love for everybody. So to me, any place that says, you know, you're not welcome, you're not welcome. again was my perception of what churches were like. there might be still some like that, but, know, where my religion, my world is about loving people. And that's really that simple. If you follow the, you know, it's the New Testament, it's love God and love people. And that's it. You don't have to judge them. I don't care if you're gay or straight or I don't care what you pray to them. I'm still going to speak with you. I'm going tell you what happened in my life with it. I have no judgment. I'm just trying to spread what it's done for me. You know, and that's for everybody. It's about love. We're all God's children. That goes into my work and I do. You know, it bleeds into it, you know. And I'm just grateful that I've been through it all. I can actually finally have some happiness in life now, you know, at 46. That, you know, I didn't have when I lived in Barrington where I could go and get two cars the same day and thought I was the man and all that bullshit. It was nothing but bullshit. You know, there's no depth of it. It was a very surface level life. Marc Rogala Co-Founder S2T: So I got a question for you. Pre-addiction, or even the start of addiction, very early in your addiction, what would you define? What was your definition of success? And now in recovery for as long as you've been and living this life that you are right now, what is your definition of success? Jacob Multack: Prior, my definition of success was 100 % based on financial numbers, monetary numbers. What was your job? How big was your house? Where were the cars you had? Again, I grew up in a very modest neighborhood, so that may have been a factor that played into it, but it was more of my family and sort of both sides. That was indicative of what made a man. And it wasn't just about providing, it was about providing a trip to Hawaii or whatever that bullshit was. I saw that from the outside and I saw my particular family, like I said, a modest upbringing, but I feel like that motivated a lot of ways, like, I'm gonna get that big house and all that shit like that. And I got it and I didn't feel like anything bigger than that. It was a fleeting moment or you go get the new car and then five minutes later it doesn't smell like the new car smell again. And it's like, oh, what's the next thing? That's because this is an addiction in itself. And I realize that now because I have brothers that are both doctors and my father is a doctor and I was not. And, you know, I look at them and, I see now they work 80 hours a week because what are you doing? You're working 80 hours a week. You're not thinking. Right. So it was no different. You're running away from your thoughts. So to answer that. So that's what I thought a man was, you know, where I could buy the fancy diamond for the lady and all that bullshit. Today, what does a man to me? It's somebody that looks out for others, looks out for people with less, what a good father looks like. My daughters see me multiple times, stop and talk with homeless people, give them money or bring food and things like that. Because that's to me what makes a man nowadays, it's having a heart and growing up and maybe still in this world you get shit on and a lot of emasculating for the things that I talk about. I could say in group a lot of times a lot of men don't like to go to therapy, you know, because you're a bitch or you're this or this and all this disgusting words I get told, but it's that's just true. Right. It's why men commit suicide like an eight to one ratio. You know, there's a higher rate of alcoholism because you're burying all your shit. So I'd say, listen, you could go to the fucking gym and pump iron and be a man, but you can also still go to the therapist and cry your eyes out. And that makes you even a bigger man than my book. Marc Rogala Co-Founder S2T: Yep. Jacob Multack: And start telling that to a lot of people, like especially when I did the psychiatric unit and the South Suburb Hospital where there were guys with the teardrop tattoos that I'd be face to face talking and then those guys, know, badass and all that shit, but they were like anybody else. had pain in their heart and then they'd start crying. And I'd say, okay, and then you would do a little self, you know, disclosure with that as well. Maybe there was some childhood traumas or, you know, a lot of men were touched the same, you know, you don't hear the stories as much, especially about guys growing up because either it's, badass, you got that 40 year old woman when you were, you know, 12. or things like that, but it still does things to people and men didn't talk about it. So I try to make that a huge component when I do groups or one-on-one therapy with people that this is bad ass. This is manly as shit, right? Marc Rogala Co-Founder S2T: No. Jacob Multack: You know, this is the hardest fight for most people. Like you could, you know, work, like I said, work 80 hours a week, but that's usually staying out of your brain because we all have some form of something, right? At least that's my trick Marc Rogala Co-Founder S2T: Well Jacob Multack: on it. Marc Rogala Co-Founder S2T: I went off on a tangent yesterday post recording when Kelsey said he wished that that he was recording because I was talking about society in general. And I you know, your story is very similar to my story in the sense that I felt like when I when I was successful in the insurance industry and had a home and had the cars and was winning those trips to Hawaii, like you said, I on the inside. I was broken. I was getting deeper and deeper and deeper into a rut. You know, Mike Tyson has the best quote ever. If you think money's if money's gonna solve all your problems, you never had a lot of money before. You know, I mean I I that is one of the most profound quotes. I understand exactly what he meant as soon as I actually heard that quote. on one of his podcasts. And I was telling Kelse yesterday, I'm like, man, in society and he corrected me 'cause I always use the word half assed backwards. I go, We got everything fucking half assed backwards, man. You know, from the youth, like, you know, the individuals that we talk to that are younger individuals. You know, we gotta go to school. We gotta figure out what our career's gonna be and what major we're gonna be joined by the time we're junior, then we gotta go to college, then we gotta join a fraternity or sorority, then we gotta party our asses off, then we gotta fucking get a career, then we gotta fucking buy a house, then we gotta get married, then we gotta have kids. Nobody talks about their mental health, physical health, and spiritual health. That's the foundation. Jacob Multack: Okay. Marc Rogala Co-Founder S2T: That's the shit that needs to be taught in the schools, and that foundation needs to be laid. Then you worry about your career. Then you worry about what major you're gonna go to. I think that's the reason why we got a freaking crisis going on out here right now. I really do. We do everything half assed backwards as society. Jacob Multack: I could not agree with you more on that. I get into a lot of different conversations with people based on ways of life. The World Cup brought up lot of people talking about different cultures and things like that. Whether or not it's based on living in a capitalistic society or that drive. And again, the spotlight, I still think it probably goes into today's day that a man is what can provide and things like that. It seems maybe it's like the world's getting a little you know, off of that old school, you ain't shit if you're not providing type of mentality. Or, know, maybe it's a team if you have a partner or maybe, you know, what's the hurry to get out of the house at 18 years old? You know, like we were kind of taught, you know, growing up, when I was growing up, like, you know, there's no help for you and there's no fuck your feelings, you know, and then you look back and well, no shit, a whole generation or Gen X, as it's called, has a higher rate of this addiction and that addiction. Well, no shit. Our parents had it too. You know, the baby boomers, they hit it better. You know, it wasn't talked about. know, everybody in my block's parent had an addiction or alcoholics. That's just the world I lived in. It wasn't talked about. You know, it wasn't deemed like it was signed to be talked about. was signed, kept it, you know, in secret, you know, in the darkness. You know, everybody knew. You know, you look back on it, you're like, oh, that's why we were doing that stupid shit at that age too. And things like that. Marc Rogala Co-Founder S2T: Just it just seems like every generation it's getting worse and worse. And I think a lot of it has to do with that modeling behavior that you alluded to earlier. I think that's so beautiful that you're open, honest, and transparent with your daughter, and you're taking her to meetings and you're educating her about, you know, pains of life and healthy ways to process those pains. And, you know, I I made some mistakes, you're honest with her, and I don't want you to repeat these mistakes. I mean, that's what parents need to do. But those conversations don't happen. Jacob Multack: . Marc Rogala Co-Founder S2T: Because there's still shame and guilt and like you or me when you get on the recovery side, you're like, fuck it. There is no shame. I am who I am. I can't change the past. All I could do is move forward and friggin' learn from those experiences. Jacob Multack: You know, the best of it too. And the same thing, you can sit in the moment being like, these people stopped being my friends or these people weren't the people. Now, again, that's a blessing. You know, I call it when I tell you my story, if you want to run away or, you know, you want to guilt or shame me, then you were never my person. And I haven't called it the asshole detection, you know, or I, you know, it might have tattoos, but to me, they're symbolic of like things that are important in my heart. But some people will look sideways or don't want to have a conversation because of things like that. said, okay, okay. So asshole prevention. Instead of wasting my time with people now or chasing people looking for it, they're just not my people. might have a lot less and fewer people. And when I told my daughter, you'll be blessed if you get a handful of people, like what I call rider dies in your entire life. You know, Marc Rogala Co-Founder S2T: Yeah. Jacob Multack: it's not a commonality, but you know, chasing that like, I need everyone to like me or whatever that bullshit is too. It's, you know, that's fleeting too. You know, that's another benefit that comes to the darkness. You know, you don't see it when you're in it. You know, and Marc Rogala Co-Founder S2T: No. Jacob Multack: you have some time, some perspective, you know, do some self-reflection or things like we learn to do, you know, early sobriety that I've maintained. And you look back and what do I have? Gratitude. You know, it's easy to look at all the shit I didn't have at a point, but how about if I focus on the stuff I do have? You know, again, it sounds very basic when you're saying it like in this context, but boy, if it doesn't feel like it's the most complicated shit in the world when you're not seeing or feeling, you know, a clear mind or things like that. And I think if that narrative switches a little bit, I know the world would be a better place. Marc Rogala Co-Founder S2T: I completely agree. Kelsey's heard that before a few times from me on the phone too. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: Yep. Like almost daily. Marc Rogala Co-Founder S2T: He might have heard that today a couple times. Jacob Multack: I mean, it's real though, because that's to me, first off, going like doing groups, for example, you get some people that you see a light in their eye or maybe something they hadn't heard or thought or they felt self-deprecating and you give them that you're awesome. You're kind of a badass actually. like, I flip that shit 180. So they're like, I'm in this room. Fuck that. You're in this room. You're a badass. You're stepping into the gym that it's a gym of this, right? It's important, know, physical, mental, spiritual, everything that Mark was saying too. but they're all important, right? So if you want to be the best version of the most manliest of men, then conquer all of these things, you know? And sometimes being alone with your own thoughts is the most terrifying thing in the world for a lot of people. Marc Rogala Co-Founder S2T: I speak at the hospitals, whereas detox, psychiatric care, behavioral health, you know, PHP, ILP program doesn't make a difference. I tell them, I I remind them, it's a privilege to be here. You know how many people on the outside need to be here, but they can't be here for one reason or another, financial, they don't have insurance, whatever it might be. It is a privilege Jacob Multack: Mm-hmm. Marc Rogala Co-Founder S2T: to be here. Welcome it, educate yourself, get yourself straight, become become a much better and stronger person on the other side and see where life takes you. Jacob Multack: Mm hmm. Right. You could hear it over and over and sometimes you just got to see it to believe in a lot of ways for a lot of people. But that was my reality, too. Like I started to see it. You know, I wasn't there, but I started to see what it could be and what are they pounding into us? At least for me and A.A. and was service work, service work, service work. You know, help out somebody do something for somebody else. It's not about your entire self. Right. It's you know, it's a very humbling experience sobriety because you You know, you go through a lot of humility in it, but to me that turns out to be one of the best blessings ever in my life too, because not lot people have the opportunity to go through these things. Right? They might sit in that same mundane bullshit career for 30, 40 years. You know, that monotonous life. Mine was, you know, all over the fucking place, ups and downs and all that, but thank God for it. You know, that's Marc Rogala Co-Founder S2T: Yeah. Jacob Multack: why I look at it today. Marc Rogala Co-Founder S2T: no a hundred percent. I'm gonna end I'm gonna end up with one more comment and then I wanna I know we wanna talk about the bookcounts. Okay. It's like I don't think there's something more noble you can do than help somebody not die. And you have helped people not die with the work that you're doing in the community. I have helped I've seen some miraculous turnarounds in in my life for individuals that honestly I I thought they were dead man walking, okay? And now they're living a life of purpose and a life of service as well. I would put myself in that category to be perfectly honest with you. And the truth be told, if it wasn't Jacob Multack: Mm-hmm. Marc Rogala Co-Founder S2T: for individuals that showed me the way. So it's like, why would I not? give somebody that same opportunity with the wisdom and experience that I have gained along the way. It it Jacob Multack: Amen to that. Marc Rogala Co-Founder S2T: would be an injustice if I didn't do it. And that's why I do the work that I do now. And I know that's the why you do the work that you do. So let's talk about the book, Jacob Multack: All right. Marc Rogala Co-Founder S2T: Elves, because I did this is I this is beautiful too. And I'm so proud of you for doing this. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: Yeah. So I mean obviously besides your work as a as a psychiatric counselor, Jacob Multack: at bird. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: you've written this amazing, awesome book. And so I would love to spend a little time talking about that. And and then also how people can connect with you and the other work that you're doing. you have a workbook out to to hand out to people that helps them. So throughout this conversation, we've talked about rebuilding after addiction, we've talked about the multiple sclerosis, we've talked about fatherhood, faith, purpose, and learning to put Your own oxygen mask on before trying to save everyone else. but what's so inspiring is that you didn't stop there. You decided to take everything you've lived through and share it with the world in hopes that someone else might find hope in their own story. So that leads us to the book. Your upcoming memoir is called From Rock Bottom to Redemption. So writing a book like this means opening some very personal chapters of your life, which obviously you've done on this podcast as well. What What made you decide that now is the right time to tell your story and what do you hope readers are gonna be feeling when they close those final pages? Jacob Multack: Well, the timing of it was really with whether or not could do the things I thought I could do. Like with MS and losing the career, I thought, okay, I got to get back to some form of a life. I can't go back to the middle of the banking. So what I want to give my heart to people and do therapy, psychology. So I was, I to go back to school. I had a finance degree with an economics minor. doesn't help me in this world. So I had the MS and I was raising my child alone. So I thought, okay, what can I do? So I took one class at the local community college, Julia junior college, one class and showed a psych. to see if I could do it. Next semester, I took two classes scheduling around my child, again, single parent with disability at the time. To the next point then went to the master's level. the timing of it was whether or not I could finish this process too. I mean, a story is a story, but I wanted it to have that Rudy type moment at the end of the story. And to me, that was walking across the stage, graduating with my master's in clinical psychology just with a couple of months ago. to now starting the job at Christ Hospital where I'm a psychiatric crisis therapist in the ER, to doing groups at a private place, to doing one-on-one therapy at another place. I needed to put something behind it before I could really put the story out there, that it wasn't a book of just hope, but some hope with, oh shit, it actually worked out a little bit. So that was the timing for it all. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: And and I and I feel like just kind of getting to know you a little bit here that, writing the book itself was kind of part of your continued healing too, right? Jacob Multack: 1000 % even just going through the edits and reading different chapters. And like Mark had mentioned earlier, there's individuals that mentioned quite a bit in the book, but without those people, know, I give all glory to God, but he put those people in my life. I didn't do this by myself. No effing way. Nobody can, right? Well, I don't know. It's people you meet from treatment or people you meet in a group or people you meet at work or, you know, somebody you met just a couple of months ago, you already have a connection greater than you maybe had with people you've known for 25 years. which I've come to find with stuff I've done with Mark on the side and the conversations we've had. Like, shit, there's some other people that think like me too. Now, if the rest of the world going through the darkness and the shit knew that people existed like this, they're more again, more inclined to maybe reach for a hand. So that's what the purpose of the book was. Yeah, I had the money, I had the bullshit and shit. This is common, I'm nothing special. but I'm willing to talk about it because I don't carry guilt or shame. I'm a human that living like, you know, human experience. You know, did I fuck up at points? Absolutely. But I now compare myself to my old self versus how I used to compare myself to, that person with this car or this, that or this, it's, who was I five years ago? Who was I 10 years ago? And, you as it's said very often in AA and in our books, I seek spiritual progress. not spiritual perfection. And all that allows me to be me and I want somebody to drink like it. Marc Rogala Co-Founder S2T: That's a plug. That's a plug from my shirt. Progress over perfection. Jacob Multack: Hey, though, right. I got my little screen at the bottom so I couldn't even see the shirt. Right. So but, we've talked about that, too. But that's the reality, because especially for a lot of men, you know, I wanted to talk to and get through with this, too, that's why I my shit out there and I'm vulnerable. Right. I can still be tough, you know, and I've seen guys, you know, define whatever your definition of tough is, you know, but that to me makes me feel, you know, manly. I want other men to be able to feel these things. So that was the purpose of this book. The memoir was to talk about, you know, I've been through some shit, you know, and know we all have, you know, our own, know, varieties of shit, but, you know, if you put in the single parenting, you put in the disease of barely able to walk, you put in the addiction, you put in the lack of support, you know, single parenting, all the other different things, I feel like I could at least, you know, reach people on a lot of different levels, perhaps that might be like, okay, how do I get through this shit? You know, I was 39 when I went back to school. when you go to junior college and you're in there with you have your own kid and then you're in there with people who were in high school three months ago. It's a it was a wake up call or reality check in a lot of ways. But I realized the same thing. That's what society told you. You can't do this. Well, fuck that. Why not? I mean, the world, way the world is now 25 to 70, let's call it as what's official, like spans of careers. Right. So it's 45 years. I like to tell us to people my age, mid 40s, closer to 50s and groups. I still have at the time till I'm working till 70, at least 40 more years. Not this far into it. I'm this old. can't know. Well, why the fuck do you have to have that mentality? You know, and I talk about that a lot. I even draw the whole graph from 25 to 70, the 45 years break down half of 22 and a half years. So if you're not at 47 and a half, you're not even halfway through your career based on social security numbers, not retiring till you're 70, you know, and things like that. So that mindset of, can't go back to school with these kids and that, I had it until I did it. And I said, well, that was ridiculous. And it all ties together too. Society tells us certain things and it really sometimes becomes indicative of how our lives turn out, which is a broken way in a lot of ways. So the more we talk about this shit and spread awareness and talk about men being vulnerable, I feel like it gives a chance for other men to be vulnerable, Marc Rogala Co-Founder S2T: so Jacob, I want to end it with this. And I want you to speak directly to somebody that's listening today that is going through some major shit. Maybe they're dealing with an addiction, maybe they're dealing with chronic illness, maybe they're going through a divorce, maybe they lost their job. They're wondering if life can ever be different, you know, and if things if they can get out of the rut that they're in. Knowing everything that you live through. What would you want to say directly to that person today that's listening? Jacob Multack: I want to say it's definitely achievable, but the most important thing to maintain focus on is it's not a flip of a switch, right? Usually when we're going through it, we're going through some shit and people will say fix it. It doesn't necessarily work that way. And as I mentioned before, the progress versus perfection, right? All we got to do is move one step at a time, right? I like to make a plan, you know, and it's not, well, everything's going to be fixed because maybe it's a loss of job, a loss of the home, the loss of the marriage, loss of the health. Uh, it's not all necessarily going to work out overnight, but again, we're going to make one goal. Right. So I used to run this thing here and I'll do it. I want to show it to you. So you remember when you're kids and you had the hose and you could plug it in and it had, you know, if you could see this, but they'd be different hoses that came off of it and they were shaken with water. Marc Rogala Co-Founder S2T: Yeah. Jacob Multack: You know what I'm talking about? Marc Rogala Co-Founder S2T: Yeah. Jacob Multack: This came to me when I was first getting sober and I use this a lot when I do groups. So I draw out the picture of the hose, okay? I say it like this. The first hose, the goal in this game of life is to get across without getting wet, okay? So this is our life. So the one hose might be our finances and it's going like this. And the other hose might be the job that we hate or the health situation or thing with the kids, whatever it is for us, right? We'll just get our things. So sometimes what we do in life is we try to grab one of those fuckers like this. You know, this says, I do the whole thing and I'm grabbing this. Nope, now I gotta reach over here and grab this one. And I fall to the ground and I'm reaching on my feet to try to grab the other one. And then what happens at the end? I fall over and I'm soaking wet, right? So what do we have to do sometimes? And it's, you know, I've learned it's not my timer, it's God's timer, which works for me. Again, not for everybody, but sometimes we have to walk up to that first hose. Okay. I'm just gonna deal with this fucking thing. I know I got four other hoses before I get across the field, but I don't can't get wet so I can only do the one at a time I've tried the reach and the grab and the you know move my way around Twister all the way it doesn't work so I go up to the first one until I eventually could tie that fucker off and push it to the side and yeah I might have been there longer than I wanted to and that's the point of like this whole thing it's not the flip of the switch right but you have to have patience with yourself in the process too and You know, when start worrying about, now I gotta fix this, fix this, fix this, fix this. Well, that's the definition of anxiety too. Marc Rogala Co-Founder S2T: Yeah. Jacob Multack: Right? Next problem, next problem, next problem. We're not in the present right now. And you know, it's to what end is that at? Right? So then again, focusing on our progress. Okay. Maybe today wasn't perfect. What would I do the last few days? Or what have I done for the past week that I started to do something? Knowing that's not going to work out every single day as I plan. But I want to look back in a week or two weeks and say, okay, shit. Maybe I applied for some jobs and I'm looking for work. So now this week I applied for 10 jobs. Right? Okay, so that's one part of it. Or whatever it is that the person's going through. To me, that's how it worked. Because I knew it would never be perfect and I had to break that whole mindset that I was perfect or that it was ever doable. It's not. It's a bullshit nonsense that we all strive for at times and we'll never get it. And then what are we left with? Disappointment. mean, expectations not being met are generally what leads to the biggest amounts of disappointment. You know, so what are my expectations? But why don't I set them? Sometimes it might be with the therapist, which for me, it worked. My sobriety was finding my higher power. It was church and therapy. I have a buddy who said we have the same sobriety. We met in treatment. He had had about 12 ODs prior to that. It had been about 17 treatment centers. We've gone and spoke together at rehabs because we don't have the same story. So I say, first, anyone who comes and says, have to do it this, I'm not a fan of that. This guy, now he runs meetings. He lives in meetings, that's his world. And that's what's worked in the step, worked with different people at the meetings. And that's been what's kept him sober and going with meetings, meetings, meetings. And mind what I like I said, there's a lot of church and therapy. And again, not one's not better than the other. We have the same sobriety day. This September 8th will be nine years. you know, whatever works for you. But if I can give you some breadcrumbs or plant, you know, a little water on your seed, you know, you'll grow it into the way it's supposed to be grown. But that's why like to hear other people. And also say somebody to answer your question, Mark, what did I talk about a lot at work? Support groups, support groups, support groups. I never thought I'd be such an advocate for it until I became one. And people might say, well, I hate AA or I hate NA. There's other types of support groups. Or what is the reason? What's your trauma? You know, maybe it was sexual assault. Maybe it was your family didn't love you because your sexuality. I mean, to a point that I met with a guy who said there's no group for me like this, I said, what's going on? He was a homosexual. He was African-American and methamphetamine addict. Okay. Well, guess what I found on the internet? Homosexual African-American methamphetamine anonymous. See, I wouldn't have thought of it at the time either, but that's the one beauty I love of the internet is that there are groups, maybe not local, but you'll find somebody where you'll say, oh, shit, I'm not alone. Right? And that helps with the self-deprecation too. Like, wait, there's other people like me out there? shit, let me hear your story. And then it's more normalized because we all got some shit, as I say. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: That's awesome. So, first of all, I I just want to say thank you for being a part of the podcast. And then also, of course, I want to say, you know, for everyone that's listening, if today's conversation resonated with you, and I I know on some level it did. There was so much that we discussed. But if if you want to hear more about Jacob's story, I definitely encourage you to pick up his memoir from Rock Bottom to Redemption. It's an incredible incredibly honest account of everything we've talked about today and so much more. So besides the book, Jacob, where can people follow the work that you're doing? Are you on Facebook, Instagram, stuff like that? Jacob Multack: I am on Facebook and on Instagram, Facebook and just my name, Jake Multek. And then working on some private practice stuff to deal with substance use out in Oak Forest, Illinois, I'm currently a crisis worker in the ER. And then doing some really good IOP PHP group work with Mark which to me reminds me of my time in treatment with like the just the love of the staff there and you know, people who have been through it. Like I said, it was important for me. So it wasn't somebody saying, well, I've learned about this. It's like, no, let me tell you what I did. And then Mark will tell you what he did. And then the other and then you again, might not be one thing I said or one thing he said. might be something I said. But he said that you hybrid it to yourself. And it's like, I'm going to take a little bit of this and with a little bit of this, because we're all unique like that. This is not math. Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: So, you know, Jacob, your story is so powerful that it's it's definitely a reminder that our circumstances don't have to define us. What matters most is what we choose to do after life knocks us down. So again, to everyone listening, if there's one thing I hope you take away from today's conversation, it's this Rebuilding doesn't begin when life finally gets easier. It begins the moment you decide your past no longer gets to write your future. So no matter what chapter you're in today, your story isn't over. So thank you for spending part of your day with us here on Rebuild and Fulfill. If this episode encouraged you, please consider subscribing, leaving us a review, sharing with someone who needs to hear the message, and we will see you next Jacob Multack: So, thank Kelsey Dunbar Co-Founder S2T: time on Rebuild and Fulfill. Take care, everyone.