Latest / True Crime with Gavin Fish / Ellen Greenberg's Parents Join Me to Discuss Their Fight for Justice and What Comes Next

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Ellen Greenberg's Parents Join Me to Discuss Their Fight for Justice and What Comes Next · True Crime with Gavin Fish

• 0:02
  Hello everybody. Man, today is a special day
• 0:05
  because I have two friends joining us to talk about the two
• 0:09
  very special friends to talk about the case of their
• 0:14
  daughter, the murder of Ellen Greenberg, which we're going to
• 0:17
  get started right now. This video contains mature
• 0:33
  themes and discussions intended only for adult audiences.
• 0:36
  Viewer discretion is advised. Hello there, my friend.
• 0:42
  Again, thank you for being here Welcome to another true crime
• 0:45
  conversation with me, Gavin Fish.
• 0:47
  I'm not going to bury the lead. I would like to Welcome to the
• 0:50
  show the parents of Ellen Greenberg, Josh and Sandy
• 0:54
  Greenberg. Josh and Sandy, thanks for
• 0:56
  coming. Thanks for stopping by.
• 0:59
  Thank you. Our pleasure.
• 1:00
  We're glad we can help. Thank you for helping.
• 1:03
  Well, listen, there's a lot going on.
• 1:06
  Yeah, there's a lot going on in the case, of course, the medical
• 1:11
  examiner, Dr. Simon, with her 32 page so-called independent
• 1:16
  report coming out on the heels of the docu series on Hulu.
• 1:22
  Congratulations on that. Thank you.
• 1:25
  What are how are you guys doing? We're good, but I want to
• 1:30
  mention and bring this to a focus that Doctor Simon did not
• 1:36
  do her assignment. She was asked to review Ellen's
• 1:43
  autopsy file and determine something other than suicide,
• 1:50
  which is anything what Doctor Simon did.
• 1:54
  Take it from there, Gavin. Well, the the settlement, I did
• 2:01
  find it interesting that they sent over everything, including
• 2:06
  she said in her report that she reviewed the docu series.
• 2:09
  I don't find that even remotely appropriate.
• 2:12
  So unprofessional. We wonder about that.
• 2:17
  That's crazy. Yeah, it is.
• 2:21
  It's so silly. Like she's not part of Disney.
• 2:26
  And she's not a, she's not ATV critic or somebody like that.
• 2:30
  She's a, a medical. What is she A A medical
• 2:33
  examiner? Medical Misfit.
• 2:36
  Yeah, she's a medical examiner, forensic pathologist.
• 2:38
  And I remember back in February when the settlement was
• 2:42
  announced there in the courthouse in Philadelphia,
• 2:45
  standing in that dark hallway that they were the medical
• 2:51
  examiner's office was to review Ellen's autopsy.
• 2:56
  Right. But she, apparently the city of
• 3:00
  Philadelphia sent everything over, right?
• 3:05
  I mean, I don't know. What she asked for, we don't
• 3:07
  know what The thing is. We don't know what transpired.
• 3:10
  We only know what came out. So the big question that I think
• 3:15
  everybody has and I'm going to ask it, but you guys feel free
• 3:19
  to not answer it if you don't want to go ahead.
• 3:22
  Everybody wants to know what happens next.
• 3:25
  We don't know what happens next. We're going to sit down with Mr.
• 3:29
  Pedrosa, Mr. Trask and figure it out.
• 3:32
  There are other things that are happening, though.
• 3:34
  It's not. This is not over.
• 3:36
  There is not a big flesh because.
• 3:38
  Philadelphia put the squash on it and so now they don't have to
• 3:44
  worry about lawsuits or they think they don't have to worry
• 3:49
  about lawsuits. There's we're never giving up
• 3:54
  and they have to be prepared for what's next because we didn't
• 4:01
  die, we didn't go away. There are two of us that need to
• 4:06
  die for Philadelphia to be happy.
• 4:09
  We're not. Dying.
• 4:11
  It seems like whatever she did is causing more controversy than
• 4:16
  a limited controversy, which I think she would want to do.
• 4:20
  She has she has talked about finding new injuries, new
• 4:24
  wounds, substantial number of new wounds.
• 4:28
  She is talking about the the podcast.
• 4:31
  I mean, what did she become? A a critic?
• 4:34
  A a social TV critic? Well, and she.
• 4:38
  Become a psychiatrist. Right.
• 4:40
  Yeah, I that kind of stuff kind of bothers me, right the.
• 4:46
  We we got people to authenticate and be evidence based.
• 4:52
  When we did something, we just didn't say something.
• 4:55
  We had the backup to prove it. We had 4 renowned forensic.
• 5:03
  You know. No, please, Josh, don't
• 5:05
  interrupt me. Doctor Joseph Scott Morgan, Dr.
• 5:09
  Michelle Dupre, Dr. Cyril Wecht and Doctor Ross.
• 5:16
  Henry Lee, Yeah. And Henry Lee, yes, that's five.
• 5:21
  I'm sorry I missed that. The the the most important thing
• 5:24
  if she was going to refute what we have to say is would she is
• 5:29
  refute is what hen would what's his name, the one who just died
• 5:35
  Sarah Whack, a world renowned pathologist right and this type.
• 5:41
  Of thing. This type of thing.
• 5:43
  And what did he say to us at the beginning?
• 5:45
  The very beginning. Women don't commit suicide by
• 5:49
  knives anymore. They don't stab themselves.
• 5:52
  They open up their chest when they do it, did it, but they
• 5:55
  don't do it anymore. And I went searching for other
• 5:58
  cases like this. There are none.
• 6:01
  In fact, this case never even came up when I looked around and
• 6:04
  went searching and, and that should really almost be the end
• 6:07
  of the whole discussion that women don't do this anymore.
• 6:10
  And, and he is world renowned. He was world renowned.
• 6:14
  He passed away. But there is nobody, there was
• 6:17
  nobody out there who was more. Outspoken.
• 6:22
  More respected for his opinion. Nobody.
• 6:27
  So everything that we've done since then, even what we have
• 6:29
  done, it's not up to Cyril Wex saying women don't commit
• 6:35
  suicide by stabbing themselves anymore.
• 6:39
  I. Think.
• 6:39
  Go ahead. I was just saying something that
• 6:43
  Sandy said earlier that well, there are two things.
• 6:46
  First is I do think that the city of Philadelphia, which is
• 6:52
  as close to an entity that is being that can be immortal as as
• 6:56
  is possible, right? That city will go on for
• 6:57
  thousands of years probably. I think that they're just
• 7:00
  waiting you out. I think that they're waiting you
• 7:03
  out. Guess what?
• 7:05
  We're waiting them out. OK, right Sandy, I think they
• 7:08
  would they if I was them and I was waiting them out, I wouldn't
• 7:11
  respond. I would teach everybody in
• 7:14
  Philadelphia on the criminal justice to say 2 words.
• 7:18
  No comment. Well, they can't really do that
• 7:22
  if you bring a lawsuit against them though, right?
• 7:24
  They have. Well, they can try.
• 7:25
  They can try. A lawyer has an opinion, but I,
• 7:29
  I don't feel that way anymore. I feel to some extent they were
• 7:34
  delaying doing this. Why?
• 7:37
  I don't know, Because they didn't get rid of us and they
• 7:39
  weren't going to get rid of us and they had to come through
• 7:42
  with something anyway. And, and what they came through
• 7:44
  with in, in our opinion creates even more controversy than less
• 7:49
  controversy. But I understand what you're
• 7:51
  saying. If it was me, I would try and
• 7:53
  wait them out the Greenbergs. And I don't think they're
• 7:56
  successful. I think well, the fact.
• 8:00
  Yeah, I, I, I tell the word that I used to describe you guys is
• 8:03
  true. Well, the words is True Grit.
• 8:06
  Like you guys are the grittiest people.
• 8:08
  You're not going away. I.
• 8:10
  Love. That it is you guys have
• 8:12
  displayed just so much. So much stick to itiveness as my
• 8:18
  6th grade teacher would describe it.
• 8:22
  The other thing? That was our daughter.
• 8:25
  I mean, wouldn't you fight for her if she was your daughter?
• 8:28
  Yeah. And, and that's the reason that
• 8:31
  I got so sucked in. You know, it was a it was a
• 8:35
  viewer that said, if you're angry about Amanda Winkowski,
• 8:38
  you'll be angry about Ellen Greenberg.
• 8:40
  And when I look at her, I just see, you know what?
• 8:42
  You guys know this. We have, we have daughters in
• 8:45
  our 20s, Kimberly and I have daughters in our 20s.
• 8:48
  When I look at Ellen, I I think total stickly, right?
• 8:56
  He's in charge of that Colossa room, huh?
• 8:59
  Oh, let's can we talk about that here for a second?
• 9:02
  Let me pause that picture. Let me go back.
• 9:05
  Give me a second. So let me go.
• 9:11
  No nose this one. Wait, what did you just say?
• 9:17
  No nose jobs, straight teeth. I There's been a lot made out in
• 9:28
  Doctor Simon's report about her having anxiety about work, about
• 9:36
  school. What does that have to do with
• 9:39
  the medical examiner's scientific examination?
• 9:45
  Well, I to me, I don't think anybody takes their own life if
• 9:48
  they're anxious about anything. That's what the Ellen went to a
• 9:52
  real psychiatrist with an MD after her name and said Ellen
• 9:56
  was anxious and she said anxiousness does not produce
• 10:01
  produce suicide. You get.
• 10:04
  Anxious not driving the Turnpike and a truck squeezes you in and
• 10:08
  you're in the left lane and they're in the right lane.
• 10:10
  You get anxious. Do you think of suicide?
• 10:12
  No. Do you even get you don't even
• 10:13
  get depressed, You get anxious. And Ellen Hang reason we think
• 10:18
  because of the injuries, the wounds from the abuse that she
• 10:23
  should be anxious. Her life was in danger.
• 10:27
  I think you're right. I think her life was in danger.
• 10:30
  Well, and, and then then subsequently after she was
• 10:33
  killed, there was a new teacher took over all her books and
• 10:37
  teacher stuff. No problems.
• 10:39
  Everything was in order. Everything.
• 10:40
  Was in. Order everything was.
• 10:42
  Gloss was in every Yeah. You're trying to be funny.
• 10:45
  They're having to appreciate it. I don't know, but she.
• 10:49
  She left everything in order, right?
• 10:50
  Her teaching books were all the way they should be whatever
• 10:53
  teacher books are. Her records were perfect.
• 10:57
  So wish I think she like I think the stab wounds were a cover up.
• 11:02
  I think she was covering up by saying that that that she had
• 11:05
  problems at school. She didn't want to say that she
• 11:08
  was being abused. I think you're right and from
• 11:11
  what I know. About abuse.
• 11:12
  That's what abusers do. They don't.
• 11:15
  They don't say it. What they they say they deserve
• 11:17
  it. Almost.
• 11:18
  Well, I had wondered if it was subconscious in Ellen.
• 11:22
  I like she was saying out loud, you know, work is stressful and
• 11:27
  this is really hard and I, I, you know, I want to come home
• 11:30
  and stuff like that. But it was a subconscious thing.
• 11:33
  She wasn't connecting the dots. I mean, I think she was in love
• 11:36
  with Sam Goldberg. I I think they had a loving
• 11:40
  relationship until they didn't. I think we have to get all the
• 11:44
  research here on abuse. The abuser feels they deserve
• 11:49
  it. The abuser is a victim.
• 11:54
  She was a victim. And I don't know if she loves
• 11:58
  Sam Goldberger or anybody, but she was not going to say that
• 12:02
  she was abused. They don't say that.
• 12:05
  She made-up of she made it. She made-up an excuse.
• 12:08
  School was the excuse. She had pressure at school, but
• 12:12
  it's all baloney. Yeah, now an article.
• 12:17
  Speaking of Mr. Goldberg, this was published in the Daily Mail
• 12:22
  little while ago. We.
• 12:24
  Didn't see this. Alan Greenberg's ex breaks his
• 12:27
  silence after court hearing rules Her 20 stab wound death
• 12:31
  was suicide. And then, yeah, so.
• 12:35
  So they actually have pictures of him, like getting into a car
• 12:38
  and stuff like that. So let me just read a, a couple
• 12:41
  paragraphs here. Ellen Greenberg's ex fiance has
• 12:44
  broken his silence after the city of Philadelphia doubled
• 12:47
  down on its comfort, blah, blah, blah.
• 12:49
  Goldberg told the Daily Mail Things suck and have been awful
• 12:52
  because of the widespread media attention around Ellen's death.
• 12:58
  I hate calling it death. It's Ellen's murder.
• 13:01
  The Daily Mail asked Goldberg, now a married father of two
• 13:04
  living in Manhattan, if he felt he had been screwed over by a
• 13:07
  recent Hulu documentary exploring Greenberg's final
• 13:11
  days. He said yeah, I have been.
• 13:13
  It's awful and it sucks, but I have nothing else to say.
• 13:17
  So I mean, other than what he told CNN.
• 13:22
  That's it. Yeah, it sucks.
• 13:24
  I. Want to know how much we said
• 13:25
  that he could he was involved in this.
• 13:28
  You didn't say anything about it.
• 13:30
  We've never said anything about it.
• 13:32
  We've never said we never looked for anybody specifically who did
• 13:35
  it. All we have asked for was an
• 13:37
  unbiased examination led by an unbiased leader.
• 13:41
  But we didn't say XYZ committed Ellen's murder.
• 13:45
  We've never said anything like that.
• 13:47
  He has got feelings of guilt. He thinks we're blaming him
• 13:52
  because he knows he could be a suspect.
• 13:56
  Yeah, well, he's the most. Obvious.
• 13:58
  We didn't manufacture his name into this mirage at all, or this
• 14:05
  goulage, whatever the hell it is.
• 14:07
  We have never said that he did it.
• 14:09
  We never said you did it or I did it or Sandy did it.
• 14:12
  We've never picked out anyone and we've been very careful.
• 14:15
  Guess. What it might not have been only
• 14:17
  one individual. Guess what?
• 14:20
  We don't know who did it. Yeah, we want an an unbiased
• 14:25
  examination. There was no examination because
• 14:28
  they don't examine, investigate suicide.
• 14:32
  That's why suicide's perfect cover up.
• 14:35
  Yeah, and Tom said that in the in the doc.
• 14:39
  I, I want to take you guys back to February 4th at the
• 14:42
  courthouse. Can I ask what your feelings
• 14:49
  were that day? I mean, let me just let me just
• 14:52
  preface this real quick. So Joel Waldman and Laura
• 14:55
  Diamond and Nancy Schwartzman and I were standing in the
• 14:58
  hallway. We had you guys had been, you've
• 15:01
  gotten an order that you couldn't talk to anybody, right?
• 15:06
  So we were standing in the hallway.
• 15:08
  I don't want to put words in anybody else's mouth, but we
• 15:10
  were so confident that this trial was going to start and it
• 15:15
  was going to go your way. We were looking at the panel
• 15:19
  that was sitting in that courtroom just, you know,
• 15:21
  waiting to to, you know, have to go through Vouadir and have the
• 15:26
  the jury picked. I was, I was so confident for
• 15:29
  you guys, but then I started to see Joel and Will, Joe and Will
• 15:34
  took you into another room. We saw them coming in and out.
• 15:38
  We saw them meeting with the city's attorneys back and forth,
• 15:42
  back and forth. What was happening that day?
• 15:45
  It started out that the city's attorneys were complaining that
• 15:49
  we were getting all the positive press and they were getting
• 15:51
  none. Boohoo.
• 15:53
  Serious. Serious, seriously, I'm being
• 15:55
  very serious. Then then I start to hear
• 15:58
  something to the effect the guy D'andrea's testimony is not
• 16:02
  going to be allowed. Who's our number one witness and
• 16:04
  lead witness. Then I hear this and this and
• 16:07
  that and then I hear a have a document put in my in front of
• 16:14
  me with the which outlined the things that we have gone
• 16:17
  through. It was like they the city, the
• 16:21
  judge was in a position to call off the trial and was going to
• 16:25
  call off the trial. That's what I thought was
• 16:28
  happening. Judge, what was his name?
• 16:32
  Judge Odos. Odos yeah, he had taken control
• 16:35
  of the court and was not going to have a trial.
• 16:38
  He was giving everyone high immunity and removing our key
• 16:43
  witnesses, so how impartial was he?
• 16:47
  So we don't know what was happening.
• 16:49
  It's what seemed to be what happening.
• 16:51
  I'm not going to say I knew it was his and Ernest did these
• 16:54
  things. So I'm not going to put because
• 16:56
  without the judicial system, Judge Carpenter notice, we would
• 16:59
  have had nothing. At least we had a month and at
• 17:02
  least we had this again. But it seemed to be that that
• 17:05
  was what's going to happen. And with those actions or
• 17:08
  possible actions by the judge, Joe and we'll started to
• 17:14
  negotiate a deal. Now the deal, I don't want to
• 17:21
  comment on the deal. We weren't.
• 17:22
  We didn't like the deal, but it didn't get us what we wanted.
• 17:25
  We wanted the death sentence. That summary changed from
• 17:28
  suicide to undecided or homicide.
• 17:32
  But we are where we are, here and now.
• 17:36
  Sandy, how about for you? You asked me a question.
• 17:38
  What happened that day? Yeah, that's what happened that
• 17:41
  day before the trial. OK, but here and now we're very
• 17:45
  sad by Doctor Simon's sub. Submeritis Discussion.
• 17:54
  I mean, honestly, I think every one of your viewers need to look
• 18:00
  into her past, need to look into who she's married to, need to
• 18:05
  look into her salary because. No one.
• 18:09
  She's not authentic and that's all I'm going to say about her.
• 18:14
  No one likes her, her piece of paper, the 32 pages.
• 18:21
  No one's happy. I mean, how do you, how do you
• 18:24
  look? Let me finish now.
• 18:25
  Let me how did she explain that she found all these new wounds
• 18:28
  that no one found before looking at only photographs?
• 18:33
  Well, that was one of the things that kind of struck out to me is
• 18:36
  or, or stood out to me was that she found Doctor Osborne's
• 18:41
  report so lacking. Right.
• 18:45
  So maybe there were 23 wounds and Dr. Osborne didn't didn't, I
• 18:50
  mean, we looked at his, I think it was Tom Brennan, or maybe it
• 18:54
  was Joan Will who got Doctor Osborne's records from the the
• 19:00
  medical examiner's office, where he had been disciplined over
• 19:03
  something like 40 cases, including missing strangulation
• 19:08
  in a homicide case. And we know that.
• 19:12
  I mean, Doctor Osborne and his team took photos of Ellen's
• 19:15
  neck. They saw it.
• 19:17
  And they dissected the strap muscles, Yeah.
• 19:20
  The hemorrhage is there. Suffocation.
• 19:25
  The whole the whole autopsy procedure was not done well.
• 19:32
  So. When listen to Osborne, to
• 19:35
  Simon, the whole thing was poorly done with only with
• 19:41
  prejudice for Philadelphia. Well, and I had wondered because
• 19:47
  if. Osborne there was no prejudice
• 19:49
  until he went to that meeting with their No records.
• 19:51
  Well, that is what that that was the point I was getting to is
• 19:54
  that if if this if the machine of Philadelphia, which includes,
• 20:00
  you know, the district attorney's office, the Philly
• 20:02
  PD, if they can pressure Doctor Osborne to change, why should we
• 20:09
  believe that they wouldn't do that with Doctor Simon?
• 20:13
  We shouldn't wait. Hold on.
• 20:17
  One second, our computer. Yeah, I can still hear you.
• 20:24
  I know. But something happened with our
• 20:26
  screen. No worries, they want.
• 20:30
  Us to OK, we're back. The the deal there should have
• 20:33
  been a stipulation in the agreement that whoever did the
• 20:38
  review was not Philadelphia was an unbiased party.
• 20:43
  Honestly, that was a big mistake.
• 20:44
  Philadelphia didn't play by any gaming rules.
• 20:48
  They play by their own playbook, which needs to be reckoned with.
• 20:58
  They are so not authentic. They have.
• 21:02
  Their football team is great. They're.
• 21:05
  They lost their giants. But.
• 21:09
  No, but I won't bring that up. We love, I love Philadelphia,
• 21:13
  and I'm just so deeply disappointed in the government
• 21:19
  there. They have a lot to account for.
• 21:25
  And at some point when there are elections.
• 21:29
  Or whatever the. City will speak to them because
• 21:32
  they're a disgrace to the City of Brotherly Love.
• 21:37
  You know, looking at this photo of Ellen, I think this is her
• 21:41
  wedding dress. Is it?
• 21:42
  Is this the one that she chose? It's what she tried on the.
• 21:44
  Beauty of the dress is when you turned around, there was a
• 21:47
  magnificent sculpted rose. You don't even get to see the
• 21:55
  beauty of the the gown, but in any sense I'm proud of it and
• 22:02
  she looks breathtaking. That basically, basically two
• 22:05
  things. Number one, there never should
• 22:08
  have been an examination because Wex said women don't stab
• 22:13
  themselves and #2 Simon is all over the place and she didn't do
• 22:18
  a job. And look at who Simon's married
• 22:21
  to. OK.
• 22:23
  Who is Simon married to? Look it up.
• 22:26
  I'm not going to say I. Don't know.
• 22:27
  OK. I will do some, I will do some
• 22:30
  research somebody. Needs to do their own digging.
• 22:33
  This woman is. She.
• 22:37
  Not Philadelphia proud. Simon has opened up more
• 22:42
  questions than given, more than giving.
• 22:44
  More than more negativity to Philadelphia than they already
• 22:50
  have. Let me refocus on this picture
• 22:53
  of Ellen. One of the things that strikes
• 22:55
  me when I look at pictures of Ellen is that one, she was
• 23:01
  always taking pictures of herself and her friends all the
• 23:04
  time. 2 she She liked strapless things.
• 23:08
  She liked spaghetti straps and tank tops and stuff like that.
• 23:11
  And if it was cold outside, she'd cover up for sure.
• 23:14
  But pretty much after the dress was tried on, the number of
• 23:19
  photos that we see of Ellen shrinks.
• 23:22
  And all of the photos that we see of Ellen, even indoors, are
• 23:25
  all covered up. So it makes me wonder if if
• 23:31
  things were, you know, all was well in the household until
• 23:36
  until the very end. It wasn't Ellen was being Ellen
• 23:42
  was being abused by somebody. Ellen was packing up that day to
• 23:47
  leave. The engagement ring was on the
• 23:49
  table, the night table, her makeups was all stacked ready to
• 23:53
  go. Her car was gassed up.
• 23:55
  It was all over. Ellen had had even commissioned
• 24:01
  or approached somebody about moving out of the apartment.
• 24:04
  And when asked about is the fiance going to come, The answer
• 24:07
  was no. We're talking too much about the
• 24:08
  fiance. I don't really, you know.
• 24:12
  He doesn't deserve any attention.
• 24:14
  We didn't pick anybody out who might have been the the the
• 24:18
  perpetrator. We're trying to stay away from
• 24:20
  that. Let me ask about the gas.
• 24:22
  We OK, I'm going to ask about her putting gas in her car.
• 24:26
  OK, now my wife Kimberly, who I think is a very good avatar for
• 24:31
  Ellen's build and everything, that's why we did the whole
• 24:34
  stabby thing, trying to figure out she could do that.
• 24:36
  Is she? Is he recoup from that or
• 24:38
  recoup? Yep, she is fine and.
• 24:40
  Are you still married? I oh, forever, yes.
• 24:45
  But here's the thing, like if I could nitpick my wife just one
• 24:49
  little thing because other than this, she's perfect.
• 24:52
  It's that she runs the car out of gas now.
• 24:57
  I mean, I have four times in my life gotten into my car after
• 25:02
  she has driven it and run out of gas trying to get to the gas
• 25:06
  station. So that is something that she
• 25:07
  does. Josh and I and Ellen are not
• 25:10
  those people. No, that's what I was going to
• 25:12
  ask. We fill her up.
• 25:14
  And we when I get to 1/4 of a tank, I fill up.
• 25:17
  Josh gets to 1/2 a tank and fills up and Ellen I don't know
• 25:24
  what her gas tank was but she put like $44.00 worth of gas in.
• 25:28
  'Cause we have the receipt. She must have been pretty low.
• 25:31
  We have the receipt but. So what I'm asking I guess, is
• 25:33
  she? Wasn't planning on checking out,
• 25:35
  I can tell you that. Checking out she was planning on
• 25:37
  leaving. Well, that's my question.
• 25:39
  She wasn't. Out without any gifts.
• 25:43
  Never mind Cindy. That's.
• 25:44
  What I'm asking is, was that something that Ellen would have
• 25:49
  done anyway going, oh, I'm at half a tank or I'm at a quarter
• 25:52
  tank, I might as well put some gas in.
• 25:53
  Or do you think she was preparing to drive a long way?
• 25:56
  We think she was going. She was going.
• 25:58
  We think more of looking in her bedroom that was on her her bed
• 26:03
  and the ring was off and she was packed to leave.
• 26:05
  That's what we think. Correct.
• 26:08
  That's what we believe. Where do you think she was
• 26:10
  headed? Home.
• 26:12
  Harrisburg away. Harrisburg.
• 26:15
  Yeah. She was being abused.
• 26:18
  I mean, let's let's call a spade a spade.
• 26:20
  Honestly, I was with her I believe the weekend before.
• 26:28
  I had no inkling idea inkling that my daughter was any in any
• 26:35
  kind of danger. Whatever, I sent Ellen to a
• 26:39
  psychiatrist because I didn't wanted somebody to help my
• 26:43
  daughter and I wanted her to not lose her job.
• 26:47
  That's what I was interested in. Those are the only two things I
• 26:50
  cared about when this thing started.
• 26:52
  If Ellen quits and goes home in the middle of this of the school
• 26:56
  year, does she go on a black mark on her record forever when
• 26:59
  she tries to get a job and can't get a job and none of your
• 27:02
  father watch that? I had no idea she was being
• 27:05
  abused. I had no idea there was any
• 27:06
  problems, though. There were any problems.
• 27:08
  None. 0 Zippo. You know, Doctor Simon noted 20
• 27:14
  more bruises on Ellen's body, silly as that.
• 27:18
  But guys, I have counted 59 like she, she had made it halfway to
• 27:23
  how many there actually were. So like, and, and the whole idea
• 27:29
  that, well, maybe she plays contact sports or maybe, you
• 27:33
  know, it's like she would have to be, she would have to be
• 27:36
  playing full contact like rugby to get that kind of abuse on her
• 27:43
  body. Well, OK, so I mean, pictures
• 27:49
  don't lie. Pictures can be modified.
• 27:53
  Pictures can be misinterpreted. Things can be misread.
• 27:58
  Yeah, I I just think that it's bad work, like Doctor Osborne
• 28:02
  did bad work, he said. There were three constellations
• 28:04
  of bruises totaling 11 bruises, you know, in various stages of
• 28:09
  healing. Doctor Simon Says there were 31
• 28:12
  also in various stages of healing.
• 28:15
  Says there's no defensive wounds on her hands.
• 28:18
  But the biggest, darkest, newest bruises are on her wrists.
• 28:21
  They're they're like dark blue. How does Doctor Simon explained
• 28:27
  the tipped over knife block with two?
• 28:30
  Wives. In the sink and say there was no
• 28:34
  sign of a struggle. Exactly.
• 28:37
  Is she like? Is she compromised?
• 28:43
  Yeah. I honestly, I'd love to have a
• 28:47
  one-on-one with her. Yeah, you would.
• 28:50
  I really would. Yeah, I would like to be a
• 28:53
  family on a wall when when that happened.
• 28:56
  She's going to never. Like I said.
• 28:59
  She's never. Going to get more.
• 29:01
  Because. Doctor Simon may have in their
• 29:04
  minds proved something, but I think she opened up a whole new
• 29:07
  can of worms. Little.
• 29:09
  She's delivering. She's just giving us more to
• 29:11
  talk about. Thank.
• 29:14
  You, Doctor Simon, 'cause you are delivering.
• 29:19
  Yeah, you're getting a lot more attention right now.
• 29:21
  And that's what this case needs. I mean, it's not, it's not that
• 29:24
  you guys are attention seekers, but in order to push the case
• 29:27
  along, I mean, nothing would have happened first without
• 29:30
  Stephanie Farr, right? Right.
• 29:32
  Be correct. And nothing would have happened
• 29:35
  without Nancy Grace, without Joseph Scott Morgan, without so
• 29:39
  many people picking up this case.
• 29:40
  Without you, Gavin Fish. Well, I wasn't going to say
• 29:43
  that, thank you, I'm saying. You have that.
• 29:47
  You have the extensive library of records.
• 29:50
  Extensive. Indeed, I do not.
• 29:52
  A lot. You've done a lot, Gavin.
• 29:54
  Well, I appreciate that, but we need.
• 29:57
  More people. Yeah.
• 29:58
  Yeah. With a haircut.
• 29:59
  No, I. Like it.
• 30:00
  I do need a haircut. I do.
• 30:02
  You know what I'm doing, though, Josh, Right.
• 30:03
  You remember when I shaved my head with my, I shaved.
• 30:07
  Well, you were, you were very concerned that I was having some
• 30:10
  sort of like mental breakdown because I had a shaved head.
• 30:14
  He did it for his father. Yeah, so now I'm going full
• 30:17
  circle and trying to grow enough to donate my hair, but it looks
• 30:21
  horrible. It is the worst.
• 30:25
  I was going to. I was going to check nice.
• 30:27
  Looking face. Yeah, it's, it's getting
• 30:30
  skinnier too. I've decided I don't like fat
• 30:33
  Gavin anymore. As I told you on the phone,
• 30:34
  Sandy, I've I've decided that we are going to to thin up a little
• 30:42
  bit. Hey guys that are watching.
• 30:44
  Sandy. Sandy.
• 30:46
  Let me tell you something, I'm going to complain about my
• 30:48
  viewers here for a second, OK? The people who are watching this
• 30:51
  right now, I'm going to complain about them.
• 30:53
  Here's the deal. When I am alone doing the show,
• 30:58
  they inundate me with questions. They inundate me with questions
• 31:02
  and I and I have it over here and so I want them to ask
• 31:06
  questions of you, but whenever I have you guys on, they just kind
• 31:10
  of like watch. They're like little kids.
• 31:13
  The question. Is Gavin, This is the here's the
• 31:18
  real question. Why do they believe us and not
• 31:20
  the authorities? Why do you think that is?
• 31:24
  Why do you? Why do you?
• 31:25
  Why do you think people latched on to Ellen?
• 31:29
  Authenticity. We are we presented ourselves as
• 31:34
  her parents, Not morons, not idiots, not hallucinogens.
• 31:39
  Honestly we could be any viewers parents.
• 31:44
  Or a relative. Person, we're not trying to
• 31:48
  manufacture anything. We are authentic.
• 31:52
  We are US. That's what I think.
• 31:55
  Thank you. And it and it really is the big
• 31:57
  question I carry around. Why do you believe me and not
• 32:00
  your authorities who you voted for?
• 32:03
  Well, I think it's just so ridiculous.
• 32:05
  I think that's the issue. I think it's just so ridiculous.
• 32:09
  Does this look like a suicide victim to you or somebody who
• 32:11
  commits suicide? No, no it does not.
• 32:16
  Doesn't. I just, I mean, I'll tell you
• 32:19
  what happened when I was told about this case, you guys, well,
• 32:24
  we hadn't met, right? And I went to the court and I
• 32:27
  got every single document that I could out of the court and
• 32:31
  studied and studied and studied it.
• 32:33
  And your lawyers, Joe and Will had done such a terrific job in
• 32:36
  their, in their filings and everything.
• 32:38
  And I was, I was offended on behalf of you that that the city
• 32:44
  would, would treat anybody like this.
• 32:49
  Honestly, it it, it's a true disgrace for people that I mean,
• 32:55
  I went to school in Philadelphia, I loved
• 32:59
  Philadelphia, Ellen loved Philadelphia.
• 33:03
  But to watch the chemistry there and the way they do business and
• 33:10
  that the people that live there. They have lived up.
• 33:14
  I feel so bad. Philadelphia I'm.
• 33:16
  Not a citizen there. Philadelphia Philadelphia has
• 33:19
  lived up to the reputation of being assessable, of being
• 33:23
  crooked and dishonest. One of the you.
• 33:30
  Don't like that? No, I do like that.
• 33:32
  I'm just I I have another question that I'm trying to
• 33:34
  figure out how to pose it. OK, there, unfortunately, no,
• 33:44
  unfortunately there are too many people not in your exact
• 33:49
  position, but in similar positions where something
• 33:52
  horrible has happened to their loved one, their daughter, their
• 33:55
  sister, their mother. It's usually women.
• 33:58
  And I mean, well, I'm, I'm in touch with four or five families
• 34:02
  where something like this has happened, where it's just a
• 34:05
  miscarriage of justice. You guys have been able to plead
• 34:12
  your case and work your case while still remaining upbeat.
• 34:18
  You don't appear to be depressed.
• 34:20
  You appear to be living a good life with your, with all of your
• 34:25
  other loved ones. How is it that you've been able
• 34:28
  to to do that in it's framed by your daughter was murdered, you
• 34:34
  know? We are looking at this as a
• 34:37
  mission, and the mission is keeping us more sane and more
• 34:42
  with it than if we didn't have a mission.
• 34:44
  That's my opinion. What do you think, Sandy?
• 34:50
  It's it's 14 years that has taken us to get to the point
• 34:56
  where we are right now and we've had our low times or I will
• 35:03
  speak on my own self. I've had very, very deep blows,
• 35:09
  but fighting for her justice and fighting for truth.
• 35:17
  I mean, they're very simple, simple, simple qualities that
• 35:22
  most people would want. This is what you.
• 35:25
  We would demand. This is what you'd do for your
• 35:27
  daughter. That's what she's trying to say.
• 35:30
  It's very simple. I we're.
• 35:36
  We're simple people. We're not complicated people.
• 35:38
  Actually, we're. Not really looking for anything
• 35:41
  more than. Justice.
• 35:43
  Like qualities. Like truth?
• 35:46
  Justice for. Justice clearing Ellen's name,
• 35:51
  having people that, I mean, there's a whole cesspool of
• 35:57
  people in Philadelphia that need, need a commode to get
• 36:02
  flushed down, and the voters eventually will do that.
• 36:08
  No, back in February, as as we were coming close to the trial,
• 36:13
  I think it was, it was on a Saturday and the trial started
• 36:16
  Monday, right? Doctor Osborne wrote a
• 36:19
  declaration stating he got it wrong.
• 36:23
  With the new information that he got through the the process of
• 36:27
  these lawsuits, Ellen's death should be classified as
• 36:30
  something other than other than suicide, right?
• 36:34
  Was that enough to clear Ellen's name?
• 36:37
  No, the document needed to be cleaned up with a fine tooth
• 36:43
  comb and it wasn't. They.
• 36:47
  Needed to set deadlines. They needed to set.
• 36:51
  I mean this is like. He said.
• 36:54
  He said because he was in Florida and not in Pennsylvania
• 36:57
  anymore, he could not come up with a a, let's call it a
• 37:01
  conclusion. Change it, but he can.
• 37:03
  I think. We believe he can.
• 37:06
  We believe he can 'cause he's still a physician and he's still
• 37:08
  licensed. We don't know.
• 37:11
  Yeah, I think he can. Channeling the heart.
• 37:14
  Barbara Joyce says love you too. We have all fallen in love with
• 37:17
  you and Ellen. I think that that is a, an
• 37:20
  authentic feeling. We all have fallen in love with
• 37:23
  Ellen. We've fallen in love with you
• 37:25
  guys. And yeah, just I'm, I'm
• 37:29
  constantly in awe that that you guys continue to, to fight the
• 37:37
  way you are. Here's a question now, since
• 37:40
  I've complained about my audience, the questions are
• 37:42
  coming in. OK.
• 37:44
  What legacy, if anything, do you want Ellen's legacy to be?
• 37:49
  I want Ellen to know in perpetuity how hard her mother
• 37:56
  and father have fought for her, how so many people have been
• 38:01
  brought into our lives to support and love her.
• 38:06
  And we will never give up on her and we'll never forget her.
• 38:13
  She we are so proud of her. There are two issues that
• 38:19
  Ellen's legacy should be tied to #1 standing should be reviewed
• 38:26
  because the judges keep saying that Sandy and I, Ellen's
• 38:30
  parents and the guardian of her estate, do not have standing to
• 38:33
  bring a trial to get to get the truth about her, number one.
• 38:38
  Number two, the medical examiner right now cannot be challenged
• 38:46
  and that's wrong. He doesn't walk on water.
• 38:48
  She any medical examiner, he she, it whatever.
• 38:52
  OK, Sandy, let me finish. He, she, it should not walk on
• 38:56
  water. Those are the legacies.
• 38:59
  Those should be the Ellen laws that have changed that were
• 39:02
  reviewed. That's her legacy.
• 39:04
  So this doesn't happen to anybody else.
• 39:07
  And of course she should be exonerated for her from her
• 39:11
  suicide. That's it.
• 39:13
  That's what I want. Well, I don't know how many
• 39:16
  people are aware of this, but you're right, medical examiners
• 39:20
  are kind of above any reproach they.
• 39:24
  Are above the law. I don't, I don't, I mean in any
• 39:28
  state, in any state, I don't think anybody has successfully
• 39:32
  gotten an opinion of a medical examiner reversed.
• 39:36
  You guys got got so close. I know.
• 39:39
  And the other thing is the standing.
• 39:41
  What is standing? Why don't we have standing in
• 39:44
  our daughter's death, our daughter, our only daughter, and
• 39:48
  we don't have standing. What did we do wrong?
• 39:51
  Do not have standing. Jim, Jim Circus says where to
• 39:55
  now? Can you appeal the decision to a
• 39:56
  higher quarter outside of the city of Philadelphia?
• 39:58
  I know the answer to this, but I'd love to hear your thoughts.
• 40:01
  The answer's no. Yes.
• 40:03
  We can. I don't.
• 40:04
  I don't know if we can. I'm not sure.
• 40:06
  I don't know about outside. I don't know about inside
• 40:08
  Pennsylvania. That's all I'm going to say.
• 40:10
  I'm not sure. Jim, thank you for your question
• 40:15
  and Sandy and Josh Greenberg are not giving up.
• 40:20
  We're going to, we're meeting. We, we, we will be meeting.
• 40:22
  No matter how Philadelphia tries to squash.
• 40:25
  This We will be meeting with our lawyers to see where we go from
• 40:28
  here. We've always been within the law
• 40:30
  and we're going to stay there. Let's see, Susan says tell Josh
• 40:36
  and Sandy to go get them. Ellen knows how hard you are
• 40:39
  fighting. Thank you.
• 40:41
  I think that is something that we all feel.
• 40:46
  Yeah, I would. I would hope I Well I know that
• 40:52
  I have parents like you, but I would hope if something like
• 40:56
  this happened that they would they would put up the fight I.
• 40:59
  Guarantee you, Gavin, your parents would stand by you.
• 41:02
  Yeah, they would. Yeah, I'm not so short that
• 41:05
  haircut. No, my dad just told me when I
• 41:09
  was in California how proud he is of me.
• 41:11
  And I'm telling you I'm a 50 year old man.
• 41:12
  I'm 50 years old and it made me cry.
• 41:15
  Like. It's, it's important to a child
• 41:19
  to hear. Yeah.
• 41:20
  To, to hear that from their parents.
• 41:24
  Christine says. I'm a teacher.
• 41:26
  We'll honor Ellen's legacy daily.
• 41:28
  Yeah. Thank you.
• 41:29
  Ellen was AII don't like this whole idea that everybody's
• 41:34
  saying that she was all worried about school.
• 41:36
  I That was the excuse that she was saying she was a terrific
• 41:40
  teacher. That was her cover up.
• 41:43
  Yeah, her kids loved her. And so she didn't have to say
• 41:48
  Sam is abusing me, I. Mean How does a victim of
• 41:53
  domestic violence reveal? Learn more about abuse people.
• 42:02
  Honestly. We it's like a it's about this
• 42:04
  abuse is a hidden. 14 years later.
• 42:07
  Abuse, abuse, abuse is a hidden assault.
• 42:12
  My, my wife is reading a book right now on the history of
• 42:16
  rape. And that's not a word that we
• 42:20
  really use on YouTube very often.
• 42:21
  They will, they will kick our, our videos off.
• 42:25
  But up until like the 1970s, that wasn't even a crime inside
• 42:29
  the home. They didn't recognize that, that
• 42:33
  that was a, that was even something that was wrong and
• 42:36
  needed a law against right. And I think that we are now in
• 42:39
  2025, I think we are finally opening our eyes and seeing what
• 42:46
  what crimes are happening throughout the nation all the
• 42:49
  time within the privacy of somebody's home.
• 42:52
  I think we're seeing that a lot. That's all right.
• 42:56
  What? What?
• 42:56
  Really surprises me. We are in the phase of this
• 43:00
  country of being very right wing and we even with the right wing,
• 43:03
  it doesn't see them that the right wing has come out and said
• 43:06
  it's not the police's fault, the police are right.
• 43:09
  Nobody is saying the police is right.
• 43:11
  It's still everybody who says this is not a this is not a
• 43:16
  mistake. Nobody, I can't find anybody.
• 43:19
  One guy once subplot time years ago said something and maybe
• 43:23
  this will bring out the Bluebirds from the whatever.
• 43:26
  I shouldn't say what I'm saying, but this is where we are.
• 43:31
  Yeah, seems like the February 3rd settlement was flawed by
• 43:37
  stating the city was to conduct an investigation, which would be
• 43:39
  a conflict of interest. Is that comment?
• 43:43
  Yeah, I think I I don't think any of us like that.
• 43:46
  The city did that. But but you know, you guys were
• 43:49
  negotiating and, and the whole thing about a negotiation is
• 43:52
  usually both parties come away slightly happy and slight and
• 43:58
  unhappy too. Right, right.
• 44:01
  It's just unfortunate that Simon is a is a blunderhead.
• 44:09
  She hasn't, she really has not done what the city wanted.
• 44:13
  The city doesn't want to keep going.
• 44:14
  Let me finish the city. That's not the issue.
• 44:17
  The issue is the city doesn't want to be here anymore.
• 44:20
  They don't want to hear my name and they don't want to hear
• 44:22
  Sandy's name. And I don't want to hear our
• 44:25
  lawyers names. They're a cigarette.
• 44:26
  So she she has she has opened up the thing to keep going.
• 44:32
  And you know I'm right. Yeah, well, you guys are in good
• 44:35
  form today too. I'm really glad how energetic
• 44:38
  you are. When we got when we got her
• 44:40
  thing, we were not in good form. We got punched in the stomach,
• 44:43
  both of us. Friday afternoon.
• 44:45
  But but she was so fallacious and so stupid and was so non
• 44:49
  what was expected that she couldn't prove anything that we
• 44:53
  we just whips it away and here we are again.
• 44:56
  I'm not used to dealing with. People, 35 pages.
• 45:00
  Really achieved their stay in life. 35 people go to.
• 45:07
  School. They try to find the best
• 45:09
  schools, get the best education, education the best degrees from
• 45:16
  the most prominent institutions. I know nothing about where this
• 45:20
  woman came from. I will bet I.
• 45:23
  Just pray she has no mirrors. I will bet Gavin right now there
• 45:27
  were people sitting in the capital of Philadelphia in room
• 45:32
  saying that Greenberg is right, we didn't want to be here.
• 45:35
  She should have written 2 pages and that was what we've done
• 45:38
  everything and we could have been done.
• 45:39
  Right now she has 35 pages, which all it does is it gives
• 45:42
  them something to talk about. I haven't even read the goddamn
• 45:45
  document yet because I'm way I'm too cheap to print it out on 35
• 45:48
  pages of paper. But I'm going to Yeah, it.
• 45:52
  Well, it's a read. I.
• 45:53
  Honestly feel truly sad for the citizens of the Philadelphia
• 46:01
  Philadelphia Commonwealth. Look what Debbie W says this.
• 46:04
  Is this is this is who is representing them?
• 46:09
  They should be ashamed. They need to go 10 feet under.
• 46:14
  Look what Debbie W says about. What you do with a three-year
• 46:16
  old? I was talking to my 10 year old
• 46:18
  about this and I felt comfortable showing him the
• 46:20
  photogrammetry. These are the images that you
• 46:22
  guys had. Made I know it was just a couple
• 46:25
  up. Even he knew she didn't do this
• 46:27
  to herself. Shalom, is what Debbie says.
• 46:31
  And yeah, I mean, I think we all, I mean, that might be the
• 46:35
  most powerful thing that has ever gotten out there is the
• 46:40
  those, the photogrammetry is that, I mean, people can see.
• 46:44
  What What Wex said, combined with the photogametry shows us
• 46:47
  how bogus the whole thing is. Yeah, let me see if there's
• 46:51
  anything else. So Gavin, have you talked to
• 46:57
  Josh Shapiro? No, Do you know?
• 47:00
  You know he has beef with me. Josh has beef.
• 47:03
  I don't. Well, I have beef with him.
• 47:05
  We both have beeves, I guess is what I'm saying.
• 47:09
  Shapiro, I have, I've stopped calling his office.
• 47:14
  Like there are reasons for me to call his office in my day job to
• 47:18
  get comments on things that they're helping everything.
• 47:21
  I have stopped calling the office because I don't get
• 47:23
  anything out of the media liaison.
• 47:25
  I don't get anything out of anywhere.
• 47:27
  I had Gavin because he's never answered Sandy and Josh
• 47:31
  Greenberg. I never.
• 47:32
  He's never. Responded.
• 47:33
  I never tried to contact. Tom Brennan.
• 47:35
  I never tried he's. Never responded to Sandy and
• 47:38
  Josh Greenberg. I'm going to say I have to go
• 47:40
  someplace. The little boys room.
• 47:41
  Excuse me? OK, no Sandy.
• 47:44
  He's. Had every chance to respond to
• 47:50
  us, to you, and he's chosen not to, so Please note that.
• 48:01
  Yeah, Sandy, it's worse because as you know, I work at a little
• 48:06
  publication here in western Pennsylvania.
• 48:08
  Josh Shapiro comes through here. I mean, the last four times he
• 48:11
  came through here, I was the assigned reporter to go to the
• 48:15
  event, and all four times I was excluded from the event.
• 48:19
  So he doesn't. He doesn't want to see me.
• 48:21
  That's truly wrong. But why did he never respond to
• 48:26
  Sandy and Josh Greenberg when we live in Harrisburg, PA?
• 48:30
  Where is the governor's offices? Why did he never, ever respond
• 48:36
  to to Tom Brennan? We were respectful to him, we
• 48:44
  reached out to him and this man is so freaking cocky.
• 48:50
  Yeah, he he, well, he's slippery too.
• 48:53
  He's kind of slimy and really, really hard to get a hold of.
• 48:58
  At some point he'll respond to us, but in the meantime, 14
• 49:03
  years later, he has not and many, many people have reached
• 49:09
  out to him and he's trying to distance himself and he's doing
• 49:17
  a great job at it. Yeah, he is.
• 49:21
  Let's see, Jesse, says Gavin. In the new doc they included all
• 49:25
  the statements that said it was not self-inflicted.
• 49:28
  Why? Hold on, I'm trying to think.
• 49:31
  In the new doc they included all the statements that that it was
• 49:36
  not self-inflicted. Why?
• 49:39
  I guess I'm not following that. Didn't self inflict any of those
• 49:43
  wounds, which is correct. She didn't sell that looked any
• 49:47
  of those 'cause there's no way she would have been able to.
• 49:50
  She was lucky that she was able to try to fight and knock the
• 49:55
  the knife block over and the two serrated and smooth edged live
• 50:02
  knives were found in the in the sink.
• 50:06
  Yeah. So honestly, your eyes don't
• 50:11
  lie. Alexander says my father is a
• 50:16
  retired me and he said this is disgusting.
• 50:19
  He has seen the reports. Honestly, any professional,
• 50:23
  whether it be a policeman, whether it's an medical
• 50:27
  examiner, whether it's a detective, or any person in any
• 50:34
  kind of respectable law enforcement, having to watch
• 50:39
  this and see the things that Philadelphia has been able to
• 50:46
  get away with is a disgrace. I would be so embarrassed
• 50:53
  because professionally this is the most subhuman,
• 50:57
  unprofessional way to behave. But guess what?
• 51:02
  The do the It's not over, and your eyes will still watch, and
• 51:12
  we will still hear, and the truth will set us free.
• 51:17
  What are you hearing from people in your inner circle?
• 51:20
  As far as you know, the doc came out this there's been so much
• 51:24
  stuff that has been coming out recently about about Ellen and
• 51:29
  you guys. What, what are you?
• 51:31
  I mean, are you buoyed up? Are you supported by the people
• 51:34
  in your inner circle or? They Oh my God, it's, it's
• 51:37
  overwhelming. We're so inundated with
• 51:42
  positivity and support and love, which keeps us going.
• 51:49
  But honestly, the past two days I haven't really been able to
• 51:52
  partake in social media because we've been doing so many TV,
• 51:59
  podcast, every kind of an interview.
• 52:04
  And so we've been caught up with that.
• 52:06
  But it's all there in perpetuity.
• 52:08
  So I will get to it all. Yeah, Yeah.
• 52:12
  Well, I love you guys. I'm glad that you came on.
• 52:15
  Love you more. I appreciate it.
• 52:19
  Give Josh my best. He snuck out early.
• 52:21
  He ah, there he is. He had a little delay, but we're
• 52:27
  with you, Gavin. Kudos to you.
• 52:31
  And guess what? As Ellen would say, karma's a
• 52:34
  bitch. You know, the other thing that
• 52:37
  you told me about Ellen is that she is a person who brings
• 52:40
  people together, right? Continues to do that.
• 52:44
  Brought us together. She has actually brought.
• 52:49
  US. Together.
• 52:51
  Yeah, Yeah. So I'm grateful for her.
• 52:54
  I thank you both and have a good night.
• 53:01
  Thank you so much for joining me.
• 53:03
  Bye, Josh. Take care Gavin.
• 53:06
  We love you, Gavin. Love you too.
• 53:08
  Bye. Bye.
• 53:09
  Oh, my goodness, guys. Are Josh and Sandy just not the
• 53:14
  absolute best, are they? Just not the absolute best, you
• 53:18
  know? Oh, they're hanging out in the
• 53:22
  in the background, so they're probably watching this.
• 53:24
  I don't want to get too mushy, but I want to.
• 53:26
  I'm going to give you a little inside baseball here, OK?
• 53:30
  Sandy and I talk all the time. She's one of the one of the
• 53:34
  people that I just love to talk to.
• 53:36
  And each and every time, even though all this stuff is
• 53:40
  happening with with Ellen and with them and with their case,
• 53:45
  she always asks about the kids. She asks about my folks, she
• 53:49
  asks how my dad is doing. She always is interested in me
• 53:52
  personally and, and I absolutely love it.
• 53:55
  And I I am interested in everything that's going on in
• 53:58
  their life too. The other thing is when I talk
• 54:01
  to my own mother, who I guess embarrassingly, I talk to her
• 54:09
  less than I talk with Sandy, she always says, how's your other
• 54:16
  mom doing? And she always wants to know
• 54:18
  what's going on. So we are two families that are
• 54:22
  that are deeply connected now and I'm really glad that they
• 54:25
  took the time to to join us. Let's see if there are any other
• 54:29
  comments that you guys have. This is a question that came up
• 54:35
  a couple times. I didn't want to bring it up to
• 54:37
  Josh and Sandy. Give me a second.
• 54:44
  This question is, do you guys know if Sam's current wife and
• 54:48
  Ellen met before somehow? Is there a link beside Sam?
• 54:53
  I do not believe that they ever met.
• 54:56
  Now it's possible. It's possible, but I, I don't
• 55:04
  think so. I mean, Ellen did did spend some
• 55:08
  time in New York City, and I don't want to, like, name drop
• 55:13
  her nor the children because I think that they are innocent
• 55:18
  bystanders in this whole thing. So I have nothing but sympathy
• 55:25
  and love toward Sam Goldberg's wife and children.
• 55:29
  They're caught up in a hurricane of media and attention, and it's
• 55:36
  not their fault. So that's important.
• 55:42
  And even if they had met before, like I don't, I don't feel like,
• 55:46
  I just don't feel like there is a connection there.
• 55:50
  Even if they had met. Yeah, I don't know.
• 55:55
  Who is the medical examiner married to?
• 55:56
  I can't seem to find anything. I will have to start digging in
• 55:59
  myself. I do not know, Daniel said.
• 56:03
  Danielle says, will you do a deep dive on Doctor Simon?
• 56:07
  I cannot find much on her. I, I will do some, I don't want
• 56:13
  to do anything that would jeopardize her health safety or
• 56:19
  anything like that. So I, I probably won't report
• 56:23
  much back on that, but but yeah, I will look into that.
• 56:28
  Couple other comments. Love, love, love Greenbergs.
• 56:30
  They are, they, I mean, we do. And then Melissa, they're
• 56:34
  wonderful people. They are, they share the same
• 56:38
  brain they do. And Autumn says Josh and Sandy
• 56:45
  are our parents now. And doesn't it feel that way?
• 56:49
  Doesn't it feel that way? Yeah, It's, it's pretty fun.
• 56:54
  My mom will laugh. How's your other mom or how's
• 56:56
  your bonus mom? Or, you know, it's, it's pretty
• 56:59
  fun. Courtney, do you have any other
• 57:05
  suspicions of abuse? The only other evidence that
• 57:07
  I've seen where I'm kind of suspicious of it is in a couple
• 57:12
  of texts that Sam Goldberg sent to Ellen apologizing for what he
• 57:18
  did but did not say what he did. There were some voicemails as
• 57:22
  well. Chief Shenanigan Officer, thank
• 57:29
  you for covering this so diligently and with all the
• 57:32
  sensitivity. Let's bring up Ellen here real
• 57:33
  quick. Push the right button here.
• 57:37
  There we go. I will.
• 57:39
  I will get the little slideshow. I'm moving.
• 57:44
  So you said CSO. Thank you for covering this so
• 57:49
  diligently and with all the sensitivity and occasional
• 57:51
  bluntness it deserves. Hashtag Ellen's fans never
• 57:55
  forget. Hashtag justice for Ellen.
• 57:57
  Well, I, it has been nothing but my pleasure to do this.
• 58:01
  I, you know, that whole thing Sandy used to say that Ellen was
• 58:07
  really good at bringing people together.
• 58:09
  And I would never have known Josh and Sandy our, our paths
• 58:13
  never would have crossed if it weren't for Ellen.
• 58:16
  And so I'm, I'm grateful to her for that.
• 58:20
  Sandy Betts. How many sleeping pills did
• 58:22
  Ellen have in her prescription? That is a good question and I
• 58:27
  might, I might be able to answer it for you.
• 58:30
  Give me a second if you guys can be patient and listen to maybe
• 58:34
  some Jeopardy music in your head.
• 58:38
  Nobody's ever asked me that question, but I do know where to
• 58:42
  look, I think because I'm not going to show you the picture
• 58:53
  that I have, but but I do have a picture that might help.
• 59:04
  Let me see. There it is.
• 59:14
  OK. Just want to see if it's in
• 59:17
  here. It's not.
• 59:34
  There are. I don't want to tell you what
• 59:37
  I'm looking at. I don't have permission to
• 59:39
  disclose this, but I thought that I would find it here.
• 59:48
  It is not there. So I guess I don't have an
• 59:50
  answer to your question there, Sandy.
• 59:53
  It might have been in one of the reports, I think.
• 59:57
  I think she had a 30 day supply and she was probably like a week
• 1:00:03
  into it, maybe two weeks into it, but I don't remember.
• 1:00:08
  This picture that I'm looking at though, reminds me of an
• 1:00:10
  experience that I had with Josh and Sandy on me.
• 1:00:13
  Bring up this one, maybe the second time that I was at Josh
• 1:00:19
  and Sandy's house in Harrisburg, they were letting me go through
• 1:00:26
  Ellen's things and and I came across an envelope that was
• 1:00:33
  addressed to her parents. It was still sealed and it was
• 1:00:38
  the save the date announcement. And I said, Oh my goodness,
• 1:00:43
  there. It's still unopened.
• 1:00:46
  She hadn't quite mailed it. As I recalled.
• 1:00:48
  The stamp was on the was the stamp was there, but I don't
• 1:00:53
  think it had postmark on it. Anyway, Sandy goes, well, let's
• 1:00:59
  open it up. I'll show you what it looks like
• 1:01:00
  and like that had been there for 12 years and she was like, no
• 1:01:03
  problem, open it up. Showed me the showed me the save
• 1:01:08
  the date, which you guys have probably seen pictures of Patty
• 1:01:12
  B. Can you ask Ellen's parents to
• 1:01:14
  explain the wound on the back of her neck that would have been
• 1:01:16
  that would have incapacitated her?
• 1:01:19
  Would she have been able to continue?
• 1:01:21
  I'm not going to ask them specifically, but I will give
• 1:01:24
  you my opinion on this because none of Josh and Sandy, I, I can
• 1:01:31
  hear Josh's voice. I don't know Gavin.
• 1:01:32
  I'm not a doctor. He is a doctor, but a different
• 1:01:35
  kind of doctor right there. There have been conflicting
• 1:01:44
  ideas about that. Some have said there's no way
• 1:01:48
  she would have been able to continued after that stab wound
• 1:01:56
  the the City through Doctor Osborne and the latest Doctor
• 1:02:02
  Simon Says that she could have. RJF has a husband that worked
• 1:02:10
  for ADA's office. Cool, let's see.
• 1:02:13
  Do you know how the Greenbergs were connected with Krasner to
• 1:02:15
  represent them when they started their legal pursuit?
• 1:02:17
  Did they know he was aspiring to run for DA of Philly?
• 1:02:25
  Yes, I do know of that story. When Josh and Sandy started,
• 1:02:31
  they had a friend who was a lawyer who was willing to just
• 1:02:36
  help them navigate possible legal action, getting Ellen's
• 1:02:42
  things, getting reports, stuff like that.
• 1:02:45
  And it got to the point where he said, OK, I'm I'm doing too much
• 1:02:49
  here and I'm going to have to start charging.
• 1:02:50
  And it's really, you really should hire another attorney.
• 1:02:54
  And he recommended Larry Krasner.
• 1:02:57
  So they went to Krasner. Krasner represented them in the
• 1:03:01
  beginning. I do not think that they knew
• 1:03:05
  that he was aspiring to be the DA until he started running for
• 1:03:09
  the position that if my memory serves, they've they've, they,
• 1:03:18
  they've confide a lot in me over the over the years and I can't
• 1:03:22
  remember at all, Bree says. Whose decision was it to not
• 1:03:26
  have an independent Emmy with the settlement?
• 1:03:28
  It was the decision of both sides.
• 1:03:31
  That was the negotiation that they came to.
• 1:03:35
  And, yeah, they both agreed to it, Mooney says.
• 1:03:42
  It's very clear to me that Ellen got her wonderful nature and
• 1:03:45
  spirit from Josh and Sandy. Yeah.
• 1:03:47
  Could you imagine growing? I mean, those are two A type
• 1:03:49
  personalities. Josh is or he's, they're both
• 1:03:53
  retired now, but Josh spent his career as a periodontist.
• 1:03:56
  He's originally from Long Island.
• 1:03:58
  He's a very blunt New York Long Islander kind of guy.
• 1:04:05
  Sandy was, she had a, a, let's see, I can't remember what she
• 1:04:13
  was a teaching dental hygienist. So she got a teaching degree
• 1:04:19
  and, and she got, you know, her degree in, in dental hygienics
• 1:04:25
  as well. So these are two A type
• 1:04:28
  personalities, I imagine. I imagine growing up in that
• 1:04:33
  household, Ellen had to be able to hold her own.
• 1:04:38
  I bet she was feisty. Bet she was feisty.
• 1:04:42
  Tio Toys. Gavin is 50.
• 1:04:44
  Dang, I know I'm an old, old man.
• 1:04:49
  Chief CSO says we appreciate and support you, Gavin and the
• 1:04:53
  Greenbergs. Thank you.
• 1:04:55
  Thank you very much. It's just me, Cherie says.
• 1:05:00
  Do we know if her tox screen showed normal levels of her
• 1:05:03
  prescriptions? Tox levels show below
• 1:05:06
  therapeutic levels, so they would expect a little bit more
• 1:05:12
  if she was taking those those prescriptions as prescribed.
• 1:05:17
  It was it was below therapeutic levels.
• 1:05:23
  Marianne Sieber What about any previous girlfriends of Sam's?
• 1:05:28
  Any prior abuse? We don't know.
• 1:05:32
  I don't know any of that. Miss the first few minutes, says
• 1:05:38
  Channeling the heart. Did Greenberg say what next
• 1:05:41
  steps are? Their next steps are to talk
• 1:05:43
  with Joe Pedraza and Will Trask. Who are their attorneys?
• 1:05:47
  Joe on the left Will Between me and Joe.
• 1:05:51
  These are two smart attorneys, 2 capable attorneys, and they
• 1:05:56
  don't know what next steps are until they consult with them.
• 1:06:02
  Excuse me. Oh, man.
• 1:06:04
  This is stuck for some reason. There we go.
• 1:06:12
  Emmy just turned 40. Yeah, 4040 for me was awesome.
• 1:06:20
  50 for me was a little harder. You got you guys have noticed
• 1:06:24
  it. After that spinal cord injury,
• 1:06:28
  Ellen would have lost all motor function to me.
• 1:06:32
  Even if she didn't lose motor function, she would have.
• 1:06:37
  It would have affected her ability to fight back.
• 1:06:39
  I think she did not do it to herself.
• 1:06:43
  I don't care what, I just don't care what.
• 1:06:50
  Doctor Simon, Dr. Osbourne, Dr. Gallino, Dr. Emery say she could
• 1:06:56
  not have done that to herself. OK, guys, it is 615, man.
• 1:07:00
  We've been at it for a while, over an hour.
• 1:07:01
  Thank you very much for being here with me.
• 1:07:07
  I think I don't know. Are there any closing thoughts?
• 1:07:10
  Oh, let me remind you that at 8:00 Eastern, 5:00 Pacific, I'm
• 1:07:19
  going to be joining Joshua Ritter over at COURTROOM
• 1:07:22
  Confidential to talk about this very case.
• 1:07:25
  I have shared a link in the fish tank on X on Facebook, on
• 1:07:32
  Instagram, and also here on the YouTube channel in the in the
• 1:07:36
  posts tab. So you can get you can you can
• 1:07:41
  find it. I highly recommend that you join
• 1:07:44
  us. Josh is maybe one of the
• 1:07:47
  smartest people I know, certainly, though not as smart
• 1:07:51
  as his wife who runs the channel.
• 1:07:53
  She's the everything chief of everything, kind of like Joel's
• 1:07:58
  wife, right? So anyway, join us over there
• 1:08:02
  here in about an hour and 45 minutes.
• 1:08:06
  Just a quick reminder that you can always go to meal website
• 1:08:12
  gavinfish.com. Bring that one up real quick
• 1:08:16
  that if you want to know anything about Ellen, there is a
• 1:08:19
  case page. Just click on cases, Scroll
• 1:08:21
  down, you'll find Ellen that's organized chronologically.
• 1:08:24
  So since she was 2011. It's kind of near the bottom.
• 1:08:27
  But all the videos I've done on the case, which there are many,
• 1:08:31
  including today's photos of Ellen, photos of her and her
• 1:08:36
  childhood. I mean, honestly, this might be
• 1:08:38
  my favorite. I love this picture.
• 1:08:42
  She's holding a couple baby dolls.
• 1:08:46
  In fact, look, look at that piece of art that is behind
• 1:08:50
  Ellen in this picture. Ellen, I can't remember the year
• 1:08:54
  that she was born 80. Why can't I remember this?
• 1:09:00
  But that was the very piece of artwork that was behind Josh and
• 1:09:03
  Sandy today. I just just made that
• 1:09:06
  realization. But pictures of Ellen as she
• 1:09:09
  grew up, this one. I love this one too because she
• 1:09:13
  is sporting the Rachel, which is the perfect time to be sporting
• 1:09:17
  the Rachel. It's good stuff.
• 1:09:19
  And then crime scene photos, the hotogrammetry case documents,
• 1:09:24
  court documents, a timeline including, let's see, let me get
• 1:09:28
  to it. This document right here, which
• 1:09:31
  is the 32 age document that is in question.
• 1:09:36
  O, you can find it all there. While you're on my website,
• 1:09:39
  check out crime cod, click on little crime cod.
• 1:09:41
  Check that out. And then this little fishy will
• 1:09:44
  take you to the fish tank where we hang out on Facebook.
• 1:09:49
  You are always welcome to join us there.
• 1:09:52
  I would love it if you would with that.
• 1:09:55
  Guys, I bid you. I do.
• 1:09:57
  Thank you for being here. Thank you for your interaction.
• 1:09:59
  I'm sorry I complained about you a little bit.
• 1:10:01
  And thank you for stepping up so that we had some better
• 1:10:04
  questions to ask Josh and Sandy. All right, take care.
• 1:10:08
  We'll see you the next time. Bye, bye.
• 1:10:10
  Thank you very much for watching this video.
• 1:10:12
  If you liked what you saw, please consider subscribing and
• 1:10:15
  if you have any questions or comments, please leave them
• 1:10:18
  below.