Latest / Unstuck Pod / From Excel Sheet to SaaS (Wael Azar and Jamie Schneiderman)
Transcript
- Jamie: everyone and welcome back to the unstuck pod. I am here today very excited. I have well Azhar calling in from Beirut and ⁓ From into look listen forward to our conversation Well, thank welcome first of all and thanks for joining Really excited can you so so so let's start off here Wael Azar: Thank Thank you, Jamie. Thank you for having me. Jamie: Tell us about you, us about what you're doing, tell us about your, well, I'll jump into a whole bunch of things, but let's start there. Wael Azar: Thank you, Jimmy. First, thank you for having me, honestly. It's really nice. Well, I actually started as a mechanical engineer in university. I used to work in construction, ⁓ but the same time, I'm a very sports enthusiast and I needed a part-time job in university. So I ended up working in a small football club where they 50 or 60 kids just as a part-time job in the afternoon. And that grew with me for the five years until I finished my mechanical engineer. I became the manager in the club. So at the same time, when I graduated, I didn't want to stop. So I started working two jobs. I started working in the morning as a mechanical engineer construction on site and in the afternoon in the football academy since it's a part-time job in the afternoon starting 4 p.m. to 8 p.m. As the football grew, I started shifting and four or five years in front, I quit my mechanical engineering job. I started taking projects alone, so I became a project manager. And at the same time, I became the managing partner of the football academy, where it became basically one of the biggest academies in Lebanon, having around six branches. And at the time we had around 1000 kids. So everything was doing great and I'm a very systematic person and I like things to be organized. I was doing everything on Excel. I had Excel everywhere and by then Drive was not that popular. So we had the sites where the branch is connected through antennas and the Excel connected through OneDrive and stuff like that. ⁓ So what did is by chance ⁓ I met my partner He was a friend of mine. And they told me that he's developer and I told them that I wanted to create something for my football academy to manage everything and stop doing Excel. And this was after actually I tried two other systems and I paid for them and I threw them in the garbage. So at the end, my partner Kamel, he's software developer and by chance also his wife had a yoga studio. So he ended up creating for me a system. that helped me digitize all the operations of the club from A to Z. Everything I can think of, everything I wanted to do, everything I was doing manual. He helped me digitize it on the internet and by that time, just to let you know how much ignorant I was, I wanted it on a CD, honestly. And I had a fight with him that I wanted it on a CD to install it on the laptop and he persisted to have it on the internet and I thank God that I accepted at the end. So he did the platform for me and when he showed it to me, I was just amazed. because I not into tech. As I told you, I was an engineer. I was going into construction and football. ⁓ was totally amazed. So I went with him. We created a company and ⁓ could him in that. So we saw the potential and we started from there. And what actually ⁓ ⁓ a system a academy in Lebanon, ⁓ okay, now became a, going to say worldwide known system. So now we cater for 400 clients in 21 countries. And we were able to do that in, I'm gonna say only four years or five years. So Camel took the company for the first couple of years, where he developed it from the product side. Then I took over as CEO and we grew the company more from the sales perspective, and we started growing more from client side. And this is where I shifted completely. So I... I engineering, I quit football, I went into tech, I went into startups where I knew nothing. I had to do everything from scratch, but honestly it's one of the best experiences I did. I would do it again every day. And now we're here. And now we're here. The company is, we have a company in Lebanon, a company in UAE. We're a team of 35 people. And yeah, and we're still growing. Jamie: Amazing, amazing, amazing. love it. It's fantastic. So, you know, I imagine, so look, you've built something, it's incredible. It's amazing that you've got here, you're right. Like you said, 400 clients, 21 countries. Let me ask you a question, because... So you chose to go across 21 countries or you would have chosen to go locally. Like, so help me understand that. Cause that feels like very broad. is that what you wanted to do from the outset? Wael Azar: Yeah. No, so what happened is we started in Lebanon and we grew in Lebanon because football company that I used to manage ⁓ one of the best in Lebanon. So ⁓ the Lebanese population used to know about us, so we grew automatically in Lebanon. Hence, ⁓ got some clients in the UAE, it started in the UAE. And knowing the situation in Lebanon, which is never stable, we knew that in order for us to grow and if we wanted to scale, ⁓ need to go outside. And at the time, UAE, if you want, was the epicenter of the GCC and whatever the UAE does, everyone follows. So we did a big effort, very big effort to be present in the UAE. And this is where we started, I will say, started targeting UAE. We started landing clients in the UAE. We started having around 10 to 15 clients in the UAE. And from there it started to spread. We landed the client in Qatar, in Kuwait, in Oman, in Bahrain, in KSA, and vice versa. The good thing about it is that our outbound effort was always towards the GCC. Everything outside the GCC came along. Like for example, now we have 15 clients in Cote d'Ivoire, an Ivory Coast. We have 10 clients, 15 clients actually in Egypt. All of this came by word of mouth. Like for example, in Ivory Coast, there's Lebanese people there. So one went there, opened, he contacted us, he opened, and it's a network effect. So... So I can tell you that by purpose we went in all the countries of the GCC, but outside the GCC it was all word of mouth, was all inbound that people heard about us and they wanted to use our system. Jamie: Wow, sounds great. Sounds complicated. I'm just meaning in terms of going to ⁓ these different places. ⁓ right now your team is, you said 35 people and you're based, ⁓ know you're based in Lebanon. I get that. ⁓ Do you have the team? Are they all local? Are they spread out? ⁓ does that look like? Wael Azar: Yeah. Very good. No, our team, we're a team of 35 people. Our team is all based in Lebanon. We have an office here. We all work from here. We're a very culture-based company. So we have a lot of flexibility in the office and everything, but I truly believe in culture and in the energy of people. Like if we work together, the energy, the enthusiasm, the friendship and everything makes a lot, makes a big difference in the company. So. actually, we make sure that we hire everyone in Lebanon, but here we have the flexibility. Like we work three days from office, two days from home, ⁓ work four day work week. So ⁓ can let you know more about the culture if you want, but ⁓ work all from Lebanon and from the office here, ⁓ the teams here, this year. Jamie: No, listen, I actually would love for you to go for you know, you've built, you're built and building a successful business. Tell us about the culture. So what have you been focused on? What does that look like? You know, what's worked and what hasn't worked from a culture perspective? That's great. Wael Azar: Well, to be honest Jamie, is that when you're in tech and you're a startup, everything you do is around people. So our most important asset is people. And I truly believe in culture and how I call it is that I built a culture based company, which is from day one, we set our vision, mission and values and we hire and fire up on these values. It's very difficult for someone to get inside our company, even if we are missing a customer support, I'm going to say, even if I have to work as a customer support, I won't hire anyone if I don't see that it's culturally fit. Our interview process is very complicated. It takes around four to five interviews for you to get in because we believe that if someone looks, if someone has the same values as me, okay, then he can be a good person. Our values are... strive for better, take ownership, stay humble, choose positivity, partner with empathy and be all in, which is all into. so these are our six which are everywhere in the office. I'm very proud of them because everyone now in the company, speak indirectly the same language. And of these, ⁓ and we were able to create a very transparent company. We're a very, I'm a very numbers oriented person. So we have a system for every department. We have a system for everything. And this is this is what, what allows me to give you the flexibility. Like for example, everyone in the company has a target, which is number based. And I don't care what time you come, what time you leave, what you do, at the end of the month you have your target. If you hit your target, you know it, you're on the top, you're on the recognition board, you're on the record board, you're on the all-hands recognition, everyone knows about you. And if you didn't hit your target, same thing, everyone will know about you, everyone will know that Jamie didn't hit their target, everyone will that Jamie is slacking, everyone will know that Jamie will into his activities. So eventually Jamie will come by himself and he'll tell me, I don't think I'm fit for that job, and he'll leave. And this is what removes the ambiguity of having to confront people all the time. it's nice because it creates, as I tell my team, ⁓ adult-based company. So ⁓ say to my team, you're all adults. I'm not here to supervise you. I want to waste my energy to supervise you. I'm here to waste my energy to make the company grow. You either help me make the company grow ⁓ or you're fit to be in my team. If you want to be supervised. go and work in another company where they wait for you to clock in and clock out. And because of these, we have all the flexibility. We work three days from office, we have a four day work week, we have open holiday, flexible timing, you can work a month remotely so you can travel, work one month from wherever you want. And ⁓ and lot of more perks ⁓ in company. Jamie: So, so listen, so it sounds both great in terms of the way you set things up and flexibility and other, I mean, amazing. certainly for me that like that kind of style is good, but the question, but I imagine it's also very difficult to find people if you're very picky about culture and fitting in and you know, and I don't know how big the tech community is or the startup community is. in Lebanon and how much you can, ⁓ the of talent looks like to pull on. Wael Azar: Look, I think you've hit the sweet spot, ⁓ in Lebanon because of the situation. So a lot of people travel ⁓ the talent pool in Lebanon became ⁓ very small if you want. So it was very difficult to find good people. The good thing about it is because we've been implementing this for the past five years. ⁓ I can say now we're in very good situation. My first were the most difficult because it was very, very difficult. find the first people. When I found the first people, when they grow and I believe or I work in something that if you promote from within it is the best promotion. So I always and all the managers that are in the company right now are people that started with us from scratch who were only executives or like juniors ⁓ now they are all managers and they're part of the best managers but why because they from the from day one ⁓ know the values. they are working with the values and now we're all the same. So now they are helping me hire and train people who have the same values or who look a bit like us. So the most difficult part was to begin with if you want the first hires, but now not saying it's easy, ⁓ if you want, ⁓ a bit better since already we have the core team. ⁓ core team is already there and now we're building on the core team. So it makes it bit easier. Jamie: Thank So, ⁓ think that's great and I get it and so, know, talent, how do you get talent, how do you get the right people, but at least you starting to build a system even around bringing in the right people so others understand that what that looks like. So let's talk about what going forward looks like, right? So Where do you see yourself you know, two to three years from now? What does that look like? Wael Azar: Well, me, sky's the limit. But Our objective in the next couple of years one, to be the number one player in the Middle East, in the region. ⁓ now, we're maybe the third or fourth player in the region, depending. So we're still with the potential is really, really, really big. As we can all see, the sports industry is growing massively, day on basis. Everyone now is standing through health. So ⁓ Jamie: ⁓ huh. Wael Azar: sports facilities, sports studios, they're opening every day. So the potential is really out there. just need to know how to grab it and we are achieving good growth month on month. ⁓ potentially me in the next couple of years, my main objective is want to become the number one sports platform in the region ⁓ from B2B perspective and as well from the side. So because now we've hit a big number of clientele, app right now has around 110,000 users, so has become a very good number. So this year we are starting to monetize and work on how we can grow our B2C perspective as well on the B2B part to have two different verticals to work on. Jamie: Wow, that makes things ⁓ both great and complicated. so, ⁓ so, okay. So you head into this, and as you look at it, okay. There's a lot of things that have gone well ⁓ and, a of things that you see going well, as you talk about number one in the middle, we'll want to be one number one in the middle East. ⁓ What are things that have been a challenge so far? We talked a little bit about hiring ⁓ or talent. So there's that. So. Wael Azar: Thank you. Jamie: So what else and then what else do you see as the biggest challenges as you go forward to do this? Like what makes it harder? makes it harder? Wael Azar: Look, one of the main challenges is hiring, honestly, is talent acquisition, especially in Lebanon. If I go and open in the UAE, maybe talent acquisition will be easier, but as well, my cost perspective will triple, if not quadruple in an instance, because a salary of $1,000 in Lebanon is a minimum of $3,000 to $4,000 in the UAE and in a livable place. other than talent acquisition, one of the main... issues in Lebanon or in the region, I'm going to say, but Lebanon as well is fundraising. So here, here in the region, fundraising is not as I'm going to say, accessible as USA or as in Europe or as if I was a company based in KSA. So it's a bit more difficult. You have to rely more on angel investors or to go to VCs, you have to have big numbers. So right now I can tell you that we're in better position. since we hit the 1 million ARR. So now actually we're doing 1.1 million ARR. So, and we actually broke even and were cashflow positive. So that puts us in a much better position. But to be able to get to this position, we had to bootstrap, we had to fundraise from angel investors, right and left, 100K, 200K, even 50K sometimes in order for us to get there. I would tell you, yeah, maybe if we had the 1 million from the beginning, it would have been easier. But maybe at the same time, I wouldn't have been in the same position to be able to bootstrap and squeeze things to be able to do it in such a cost efficient way. You know, they say if you get money, you tend to spend it quickly. So it's a double-edged sword, you know? But at the same time, like right now, our next step is to try to raise series A, okay? To try to, because we've hit market, like a viable product, we've hit market fit, we're just refining our product in a way because our next... Jamie: Right. Wael Azar: objective is to to blitzkate. We want to grow really fast and we're trying to to if you want adapt our product to be able to grow to be to be if you want the product growth not sales growth. This is this is my objective from now to 2027 to switch this to switch to this strategy. Jamie: Yeah, yeah. Interesting. Yeah, I was gonna ask you about that. Because I'm like, so what is the plan? So I have two different questions, so many questions. But one of the questions is so ⁓ much are you thinking about raising? So that's one question I have for you, when you think about this. Wael Azar: Okay, so we have two scenarios for the raising. So one, ultimately my point, it's gonna be somewhere between, I'm gonna say two to three million, two to four million. I don't have an accurate number because I need to do my study to have a basic number. But this number is gonna be in, I'm gonna say mid-2027, let's say beginning to mid-2027. Right now what we're looking for is a small round of 200 to 250, just to, if you want, Jamie: Fair? Wael Azar: to give a sterile shot to my engineering team. I really need to hire a bunch of three, four, really senior team management, senior big engineers. I really need to reinforce my engineering team to, in a sense, to reinforce my product. I a very good product, but for me to be able to go to the next level, for me to be able to ⁓ if want, take these two to million and spend it in the right way only on growth, I need to reinforce my product even more. I need to enhance it I need to fix some stuff in it to be able to when I take the two to four million not be working on the product just working on growth and have an aggressive approach on just growing growing and growing. Jamie: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And I was going to ask you about the second part, right? So, I understand where you're coming from. So, it's either I need some sort of, call it angel funding or some sort of like smaller dollars to enhance we've got ⁓ so can make some investment around product, which will then drive growth. And I wanted to go back to your ⁓ product-led growth comment. ⁓ Today, your growth is happening from sales, right? It's all sales led. It's from sales. How much of that sales is you? How much of that, sorry. Wael Azar: Yeah, no, I would say that actually this quarter it has been till end of 2026 it was 50-50 so 50 % of our sales was inbound and 50 was outbound. yes. Now you want 2026 it was 70 % actually 72 % inbound and 28 % outbound and this is Jamie: that's amazing. That's great. Wow. And the inbound is coming from what? Were just referrals or? Wael Azar: In-body, in-direct traffic, in-direct, I've heard about you, I saw your app, I know someone who uses you and stuff like that. And this is what's encouraging us more and more to enhance our product because we know that the network effect comes from what? If you use a product and you're happy about it, you're the best marketing agent or the best marketing thing ever. And this is what we're working on right now. Jamie: Okay. Yeah. Okay. No, no, that makes, that makes a lot of sense. Okay. And then, so going forward, what you're trying to do is build more growth capability into the product so that it can ⁓ then that growth going forward. In particular, is that a B2C view? that you make, commented on that before? ⁓ Wael Azar: No, it's a... The idea is, as you said, to be a product that grows, it means, for example, that one of the ideas is to create a freemium model. Like, for example, we cater for, I'm going to say for gyms or for sports facilities. Our minimum package right now is for $89. Okay? And with the $89, I think you get up to 100 clients and you can create as much classes as you want. You have certain features. So one of the ideas... just as brainstorming me, me, me and the team is that maybe you get a freemium, you can use the system for free, but with the freemium, you can have up to 30 clients, you can create up to 10 classes, you can have limited number of features. So you can see my system, you can test it, but with a very limited view, but at the same time, you will have access to the app, people will be able to book and pay you online. If you want to use the extra features, then automatically without having the salesperson call you, You can just put your credit card upgrade to the next tier and start using the next tier. Jamie: Okay, very interesting. Like, seen a lot of these kinds of anyway, I've seen on, I've seen them and experienced them. So, so, ⁓ I know, I I know stage that you're at. think it's very, I think it's a exciting place to be obviously. So, so let me, let's talk about this. Cause I actually wanted to throw this your way. So ⁓ as you, you think about that, where the word of the Wael Azar: Yeah. Jamie: what concerns, what questions, what challenges, like what do you, what, what than the two new babies you have at home, which are, know are keeping you up at times. What else is keeping you up ⁓ terms of the business ⁓ where you're going? Cause it sounds pretty exciting. Wael Azar: Yeah. Look, for me the babies are easy compared to that. Look, the main challenges with that one, I can say as I was mentioning, is the product side. Because one, me first impression is everything, you know? ⁓ when you want to start with the freemium, your product needs to the sweet spot. Because when people tend to go in, ⁓ need to have... Jamie: Ahahaha! Wael Azar: the good features for them to use in the right UI UX, but at the same time, the good amount for them not to get bored and to be able to upgrade. So one, right now my system doesn't support freemium. So I have a good product work I need to work on and not only product as development, I mean from product management, there's a lot of brainstorming that needs to be done. What can I include? What not to include? What to put here? How the UX needs to be done? Of course, we need to start with the minimum to go with. And at the same time, We've never done freemium. ⁓ ⁓ know, as when you want ⁓ start something, there's always the messiness of starting, the know-how and stuff like that. So this is why we like, Our plan is now till Q3 to launch one the freemium models that we intend. Like eventually, We will be launching three freemium models because our system supports field rental, supports PT and supports classes. So we tend to launch one of the freemium models from now till Q3 and this freemium model we're going to launch it in Lebanon to be able to test and it's going to be our test lab. It's same thing as we did with the product. When we started, we started in Lebanon, we tested, we found out what are the good things, the bad things before going out because you know, when it's your country and it's your culture, they can bear with you more than others. You know, If you do a mistake, compare with you, say, okay, let me, so this is gonna be our test lab here. And then for us, This is why I was telling you the investment that we want of two to four million is next year. By the time I would have tested, I would have found out what works, what not, for me to get an investment when I'm ready to grow, not ready to test. Jamie: That's great. Okay. No, no, that's, ⁓ okay. This is great. So, okay. and I could talk all day. ⁓ and I, and, and, and we'll, we'll have to find another time to do more on this and, and, ⁓ have you back and, and see what's going on. But, but so for the sake of everybody listening, how can people find you, follow you, get to you? Maybe there are people who are like, I have money. How I, I want give you, I want to make an investment. How do they find you? Wael Azar: My pleasure. Yeah. Well, anyone can find me on LinkedIn. Wael Azar, you my name. here. ⁓ Yes. Yes, yes, you can have it. There is my number on LinkedIn as well. It's always there. ⁓ I'm open to messages, emails. My email is there. You can contact me. I reply to everything, always, all the Jamie: We'll put, we'll put links in, sorry. I'll we'll add links into the, into the description. Wael Azar: this is for me privately for the company. have the website. It's there. You talk to sales. You can check everything out. I would love to hear your feedback, your comments. I'm always open to feedback and everything you ever anyone has to say. Jamie: All right. Well, listen, I really appreciate the time. This has been great. I really enjoyed it and and ⁓ forward to seeing and hearing more updates about everything that's going on. Wael Azar: No, thank you, Jenny. Me too. Here? Here as well, Jimmy. Me too. My pleasure. Thank you again for your time. Jamie: Thank you. Thanks, Mariam.