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Tending Your Digital "Garden" (with Podge Thomas) · It's All Poetry

• Nicole (01:28) welcome back to It's All Poetry, Podge. I'm so excited to have you here. Podge (01:34) Thank you for having me back. I'm so excited. I love a reprisal. Nicole (01:39) Yes, and I've been wanting to bring you back, so this is perfect. For everyone listening, I have Paj Thomas on the line with me today. Paj is a Notion teacher whose work explores how colonialism and traditional education have made it hard for middle-aged women, BIPOC, Gen Xers, neurodiverse and queer folks to connect to our curiosity and become intentional and engaged adult learners. She uses digital gardening to actively rekindle her own curiosity and help others find their own practice through building supportive and regenerative notion systems. Paj, how'd I do? Anything else you wanna add? Podge (02:19) See, this is what happens when a copywriter writes you a bio for you. That was better than any bio I have ever written for myself ever. Let's deal with it. Nicole (02:28) It's basically what you said. Podge (02:31) It's no, I think that yeah, no, that was good. think, you know, what stands out to me about that is like, am I all over the place? Just like a very broad sort of like spectrum person. But I think, you know, one of things I really love about being self-employed and being able to create the work that I want to create is that I can actually find the through line in all of my work and kind of bring it bring it all together in a way that seems to be making sense to some people. Nicole (02:59) Yeah, it makes sense to me. I love your work. And you are on this season because you are my notion mentor is what I'm calling you because we are doing a season on mentors and people I have learned the most from. So I'm excited to get into it. So for those listening, Paj and I have decided to focus on the word garden because of Paj's focus on digital gardening. So that's what we'll be digging into today. Paj, I would love to start by asking you like What are some of your earliest or most significant memories of the word garden? Podge (03:35) I grew up in a housing project in the Northeast of England and we didn't have a yard of our own. And my mum had an allotment on the other side of town. And so when I was growing up, we would go down there, we would walk down there and we would garden with her. my mother, is a pretty complicated human, And our relationship is pretty complicated, but my memories of her, you know, gardening in this allotment are so fond because she was happy. She was happy with her, you know, fingers in the dirt and she's always been a very social person. She's definitely an extrovert. And so she knew all of the allotment neighbors and it was a very community orientated place. And so for me, Yes, gardening is growing food, but I've always found gardening in community to be the thing that appeals to me most. Nicole (04:44) that's amazing. I'm so excited to dig back into the past of garden with you because it's like that kind of theme comes up a lot. I'm curious though, does that apply to the way you use gardening in your work now, the community aspect? Podge (04:59) Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that's an interesting question because I, when I first found out about digital gardening and what that was, I found it, I found it from Anna Howard, who is a podcaster and YouTuber. She talks about digital gardening among other things. Her podcast is called Wild Geese, I think. And What appealed to me about it immediately was the sense of building intimacy with one's self through this exploration of just anything that piques one's curiosity. So once I dug into it, the first thing I wanted to do was to share it with other people. Right? Like I think about the Nicole (05:53) Yeah. Podge (05:53) own physical gardening that I do. I have a garden in the back of my house. I actually garden there. But the thing that I always want to do is I want to know what other people are doing in their gardens. I spend a lot of time talking to friends and texting with other friends who live in my area about what they're growing. And it was the same for me with digital gardening. And when I first taught the class, I immediately was like, we have to have a show and tell session at the end, because I want to make sure that we can all see what we've all done. You know, I think that Nicole (06:28) Mm. Podge (06:28) the sharing aspect of it, the joy of like, look at what I made is important, not just from a digital gardening perspective and from a personal exploration perspective, but because many of the people that I serve are solo prenuas. We do this on our own, you know, we sit here in front of our computers. on our own all day long and we really couldn't do it without each other. really what I love about being in a community of other business owners like you is that over time we get to know each other's work really intimately and that's what creates the support. And all of that for me is woven into the principles of digital gardening. Nicole (07:10) Yeah, yeah, no, I don't know what my life would be like as a solopreneur if I didn't have the community of other solopreneurs on the internet. The way you're talking about it too also reminds me of like the sharing of an abundance from a garden. Like right now in Florida, we're at the end of like mango season and like everyone, like I go to Pilates class and everyone's just like bringing their baskets of mangoes because they have too many mangoes. So it's like this checkout like at the end, like right above the cubbies where we put like our shoes and our bags are just like these baskets of mangoes and these signs like, please take because they just ferment like on the sidewalk if you don't pluck them and share them around. Podge (07:54) Yeah, I love that. That's so funny because here it's tomatoes. I live in the Northeast, so it's always tomatoes. Nicole (08:01) Yeah. Podge (08:02) Everybody's like, do you want tomatoes or, you know, basil or a Cukes or zucchini, right? Like these things that grow in abundance. An excess of mango sounds like a very incredible problem to have because we certainly can't grow mangoes up here. But yeah, that is an interesting aspect of it. You know, I had this like, I had this crazy idea the other day because I found somebody else's digital garden in Notion. This person named Chloe Almeida, she has a digital garden or they have a digital garden and I subscribed to it. It's behind a paywall, which I actually really kind of love because then they get to just be a lot more intimate with what they're sharing and they check in every day and I always go every day like to see what they've been doing. There's so much in there and there's so much to explore and I had this idea the other day. Wouldn't it be incredible if a bunch of us digital gardeners in Notion, all connected. Like all of our digital gardens were linked out to each other. And we could start to create this web of digital gardens because it's actually quite hard to find other digital gardeners. You can just search digital gardeners and you'll come up with some, but you know, there are lots of people out there who are just sort of doing this as a hobby. And I'm so curious about what everybody else is doing. And I learn a lot, right? When I look at other people's... work. It's not just like I learned sort of more about how to design it, but I learned more about how people are thinking about their own work. I love to see people really being introspective about the work that they're creating. And it's, there are two sides. So when I teach notion, one of things I always say is it's form and function, right? It has to work for you, but it also has to look nice. Cause if you doesn't look good and it's not organized, you're not going to want to hang out in there. And This is something that I really love about seeing other people's spaces because it's not just about what they've created. It is also about how they're laying it out. You can really start to see how somebody's brain works. And I just love that aspect of it. So yeah, that's like, yeah, this is like, you heard it here first. This is like a little dream that I have one day is to like connect all of these digital curtains together. Nicole (10:07) I think that's lovely. I'm so in as a Podge (10:10) you Nicole (10:10) consumer or a participant. You let me know I'm in. Podge (10:13) Yeah, yeah. Nicole (10:15) that's so great. And I love that you're talking about kind of this form and function because I think like, and this brings in the definition of garden, right? Which we'll keep getting deeper and deeper into. But one of the definitions that is in the modern definition, but also we'll see repeat as we go backwards through time is a container, right? It needs the enclosure. to be by definition a garden. So having this kind of form that is a constraint that's almost like a poem, that it gives you enough constraint that you can be super creative and create something beautiful within, sounds like a part of what you're talking about as well. Podge (10:52) That's so interesting. I never thought about as soon as you said that made me think about permaculture and Nicole (10:56) Mm. Podge (10:56) the seven layers of permaculture and one of those one of those layers is the edge Right, which is like the border between your Where your space ends and where somebody somebody else's space and all begins right that Nicole (11:10) Mm-hmm. Podge (11:10) there's a lot that goes on there This is a place where creatures will cross over. This is a place where you'll get Sometimes extra protection from elements and that different and it's making me think again about these connections, right? About these digital gardening, this digital gardening web. But yes, it operates within enough constraints to where it gives you the direction that you need to create something, but not so much that you can't be expansive with it. Yeah, yeah. Nicole (11:45) Yeah, yeah, exactly. Okay, let's take a closer look at the modern definition. So I'm going to read this in three parts because we have the noun, the verb and the adjective. So the noun is, I'm just going to read all of them because they're quite short. are, well, there's two definitions of the noun, but then there's like ABC under each. So one, a plot of ground where herbs, fruits, flowers or vegetables are cultivated, a rich, well cultivated region. or a container such as a window box planted with usually a variety of small plants. And then the second definition in the noun is a public recreation area or park, usually ornamented with plants and trees, such as a botanical garden, also an open air eating or drinking place, or a large hall for public entertainment. So we have those two, right? We have the cultivated garden with plants, and then also we have this like public. definition of a garden where people are surrounded by plants usually I think about but it's for like community for eating, drinking, entertaining. Yeah, any reactions to the noun? Podge (12:57) It's so interactive, Nicole (12:58) Mmm. Podge (12:59) right? It's a people first, right? It's a people forward thing that exists. I also imagine, and maybe this is gonna come up in some of the older versions of this word, but gardens must be a fairly modern invention, right? Like once we started to split land up. Nicole (13:23) Mm-hmm. Podge (13:24) and create ownership, now you've got a garden, right? We're no longer, we're not foraging anymore. Now we're actually having to create space where we can grow food. Not that a garden has to just be about food, right? But like you think about urbanization as well has made it so that in more urbanized areas, you've got designated spaces that are gardens that people can go to because our relationship with nature has changed so, so much over the last couple of hundred years. Nicole (13:50) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. my gosh. Okay. Yeah. Let's keep going back. And it does, I'll share a sneak peek is that the etymology does connect with yard, of course. And you'll see that in different languages, right? Like the word that's similar to garden often means yard in other romantic languages, especially. So, and yard to me seems less bountiful, like more just like a place for people to hang out and less about the plants that are there. Podge (14:19) Do you think of yard is, cause I don't really, cause I don't, grew up in England. We don't really use that word. Is yard more like patio? Is that kind of the implication? Nicole (14:27) Yard? Yeah, when I think yard, the difference between yard and garden to me is a garden has a lot more life in it. Like it's a lot more plants, like a lot more non-people life. It's got trees, it's got plants, whether they're vegetables or flowers or trees or whatever. And a yard is more like the flat kind of like, this is my place where my... kids run barefoot and like they try to keep the insects out by mowing it and it's like a very like flat area that's meant for human lounging and human recreation, Podge (15:03) Okay. Nicole (15:04) human play. Yeah. Yeah. And we all have feelings about yard. E.O. Wilson wrote like this book where this whole chapter he has about yards and how. humans are obsessed with our front yards and how like it just makes a desert for all of the other creatures around us who need to pollinate and eat and yeah. Podge (15:22) Yes, yes, I do feel strongly about lawns. Yes, I'm not a big, yeah, let's get rid of the lawns, shall we? Nicole (15:26) Yes. Yes. lawn. Lawn, think, to me in American English, like lawn and yard are a bit more connected than garden. We got there. Podge (15:37) I didn't even know that. lived here for so long. I did not know that. Okay, okay, okay. All right. I interrupted you though. So let me let me you keep going. Nicole (15:43) No, no, that was great. that was perfect. Okay, let's talk about the verb because I do think it's interesting to think of gardening too as something you do. So we've got the garden and then the verb is to lay out a work in a garden, of course, to make into a garden or to ornament with gardens. And I really like the word ornament, like implying it makes me think too of like, like gnomes, like garden gnomes. like little statues you'll go by and like put around your garden yeah anything any other reactions you have or thoughts you have about the verb gardening Podge (16:21) Well, as soon as you said gnomes, like there is a, there is like Nicole (16:23) you Podge (16:24) a, generations long tradition in the UK of moving people's gnomes, garden gnomes. Like stealing. Nicole (16:32) What? Podge (16:33) Yes. Like, well, sometimes you steal them, but I always think that's a bit mean-spirited, you'd go, we used to this as kids, you know, as teenagers, we would go and you would either, cause some people get really into their gnomes. Like you can go to a yard and it'll have like 20 gnomes in it or something. Nicole (16:50) Mm-hmm. Podge (16:50) So we would go and we would either completely rearrange them or we... I can't believe I used to do this. I haven't thought about this in forever. we pick them up and you go put them in somebody else's yard, right? And not like you wouldn't hide it so they couldn't find it. Like you'd make it really obvious. Anyway, so. Nicole (17:09) No, that sounds lovely. That sounds really playful. And like the gnomes are just moving around, jumping between. They're not constricted by the boundaries of anyone's garden. They're jumping between boundaries. Podge (17:22) Exactly. Yeah, they come to life at night. That's just how that works. Nicole (17:26) Okay. Podge (17:27) So in terms of gardening, what strikes me is, the labor aspect of it and how, so I'm really an amateur gardener, right? Like I pretty much just grow food in the summertime. This year actually built a greenhouse. I built a hoop house or a high tunnel, whatever you want to call it. And so because I want to be able to try and grow through the winter. But one of the things I definitely know about gardening and this has some level of implication to digital gardening for me as well is that if you're a gardener, that is what you do. That is who you are. Right. There is if you want your garden to look nice or your yard or whatever, that's kind of a full time commitment. Right. If you want to grow food, you want to grow plants, you want it to look nice. you're really kind of doing something every day. You're tending to it every day. Gardening isn't just about, it's not just about being able to produce an end result, right? It's about making a commitment to creating something that is alive and stewarding it into existence. And you know, you always have to sort of keep an eye on it. This is why did, this is why gardeners, make journals, right? I have a gardening journal every time I go Nicole (18:48) Hmm. Podge (18:49) out into my yard and I do something, I make a note of it, I write it down, I'll talk about the weather. It's a very observation forward activity. You really have to be paying attention. You have to be looking at things. You have to be listening. You have to be really plugging in to what's going on with the garden because it is its own thing. And there is something that's very special about being the steward of this Nicole (19:20) Hmm. Podge (19:21) activity right this thing that happens really all year round yeah Nicole (19:26) Yeah, yeah, that's so fascinating. one of the things that was really cool when we start digging into the history of it is there is this idea, right, of a garden as a paradise, right, or a promised land. And yet also, it's connected with labor and work. And it's like in order to have this kind of paradise, it requires this observation and this toiling. And yeah, just, it's funny. I don't think a lot of words and in our research, like there aren't a lot of words that have that kind of like, like the meanings that are kind of contradictory, I guess is where I'm going with that. Podge (20:12) Mm-hmm. Especially, think a little bit how we think about labor, right? Labor has become a little bit of a dirty word. But gardening labor is good labor, I think. Nicole (20:24) Yeah, yeah, there is something about getting your fingers in the dirt that just like, it makes everything else like, like all my other worries are less important. If I can just get my fingers in the dirt and I am not even an amateur gardener. But the few times when I get my fingers in the dirt, I'm like, this is good. Podge (20:41) you have a plant behind you. I can see that plant. It looks good. Nicole (20:44) Pudge, that's fake. is not real, it's like silk or plastic Podge (20:50) Okay. Nicole (20:51) or something. Podge (20:53) Alright, Jeremy can cut that bit out if you want to. Nicole (20:57) No, we're leaving that in. Everyone needs to know. Yes, Podge (21:02) Okay, for real, I went to God now then. Nicole (21:05) a real, real amateur gardener. Not even an amateur gardener, yes. Well, part of it is we live in Florida, right? I feel almost kind of bad keeping plants indoors when we're in this place where they can and want to be outside, like so many of the... Like those tropical plants that people can bring into their homes. I'm like, no, they'd rather just be outside. So we have plants outside and they're great. Yeah. Yeah. Podge (21:28) Okay, now you see that does count because yes, I put, have a screened in porch and as soon as the weather gets nice, I take all my indoor plants and I make like a little oasis on my porch so they live out there. Because yes, you're right. Most of our indoor plants are tropical and you live in a tropical climate. So it's all about the outdoors for you. Okay, okay. That's interesting to know. Yeah. Nicole (21:46) Yeah, yeah, you know those like a snake plants? Is that what they're called? They're like super pointy ones. Yeah, they're Podge (21:51) Yes. Yeah. Nicole (21:52) just like everywhere. They're like bushes around here. There's Podge (21:55) What? Nicole (21:55) like I could just go out and dig some up and bring them inside if I wanted to. Yeah. Podge (21:59) that's crazy! That's so crazy! Okay, okay. Nicole (22:03) Okay, so the last modern, which I do want to point out because it is not something I immediately thought of when I thought of the word garden, but is as an adjective. So it's like used in or frequenting a garden such as a garden gate, a garden hose, garden pests, garden chrysanthemum, right, like a certain plant that is suitable for growth in an outdoor garden due to hardiness. And then also we have garden variety. which is like, means like common, commonly found, like not, Podge (22:34) Amen. Nicole (22:36) and there's something almost a little like dismissive about that. Like, that's just garden variety. Podge (22:44) That's also a very English thing to say. didn't know we were Nicole (22:47) yeah? Podge (22:47) going to be, yes, that's a very, and it's like, is, it's, no one can be, like, nobody does dismissive, like the English. So I feel like, yeah, it's like, it's ordinary as an insult. Nicole (23:01) Mm-hmm. Yeah. So what do you make of that, of garden being used as an insult? That's not special. That's just garden variety. Podge (23:10) It's just garden variety. Yeah, I mean, you know, maybe there is. you know, as someone who grew up in England and there is something that is like, you know, like the English cottage garden, right? You think of roses and hedgerows and, you know, very curated and interesting that we would sort of, and I don't know where that phrase came from. I don't hear Americans say it very much, but it's interesting that the English possibly came up with this phrase. as a way to dismiss something as ordinary when the English are pretty obsessive about their gardens. But the thing, OK, can I add something here? Nicole (23:54) Please, yeah. Podge (23:56) Because I know we're talking about gardens, but the thing I think we're missing here is the gardener. Nicole (24:01) Mmm. Podge (24:03) And this makes me think about, so I'm a tribal member. I come from the Seneca Nation of Indians and we have a origin story. And our origin story is, or creation story is that there was a woman who lived in the sky. She was called Sky Woman and her husband was in charge of this huge tree in the sky. He had to protect it. He had to protect people from taking anything from it or damaging it in any way. And one day he had to go to the market and he asked his wife, you need to take care of the tree today while I'm gone. And she got really curious about what was around the base of the tree because there were all these like plants and fruits and things. And as she got closer to the base of this tree, there was a hole there and she fell into the hole and on her way, falling from the sky, she grabbed a bunch of these plants. She grabbed strawberries and I forget she grabbed a few other things. She fell and she fell and she fell and she fell and she fell and she landed on the back of a turtle and she was completely surrounded by water and all the animals and the creatures, they dove down deep into the water to collect soil and they brought soil and some of them died while they were trying to bring her this soil and she used the soil to build and plant on the back of the turtle and that grew and that grew and that grew and that's what made the earth. And so I love that there's this even deeper connection that I just never really thought about that, you know, the creation story is, was a gardener. Nicole (25:50) Yeah. Podge (25:50) We we were sort of like, came from, you know, we came from gardeners and some people will know the three sisters, which is squash, corn and beans. That comes from our people as well. And so that was what she had planted. That was one of the things that she first planted was the three sisters because they grow in harmony together. And there was just this instinct for, you know, how to garden. So I love this extra aspect of the garden, of the gardener, because it's not just the thing that you create or the thing that you experience or the thing that you're committed to. It is also the person who you are. Nicole (26:22) Hmm. I love that. How does that apply to to digital gardening? Podge (26:30) Yeah, like as a digital god in a... Nicole (26:33) Yeah. Podge (26:34) I mean, it's that same principle of commitment. Commitment is sort of a big theme for me because as a Notion teacher, I'm teaching people how to use a tool that's quite complicated to use. And I always believe that with any new tech or any new thing that we want to learn in our business, we have to be really clear about why it is that we need this thing or why it is that we want to go through this journey of learning this tool or whatever it might be. We have to commit to it, right? We have to be committed enough to say, I'm going to take the time that is required for me to learn this thing, even when it gets uncomfortable. And this is, as a digital gardener, also my charge is I Nicole (27:28) Hmm. Podge (27:28) am committed. to learning because to me, digital gardening is a forum for me to learn as an adult learner, someone who is neurodiverse, somebody who has experienced educational trauma, somebody who felt like their curiosity was totally dead. And so now I'm, like you said in my intro, that this is how this is one of the ways that I'm rekindling and healing my relationship with curiosity. And it does require. It requires a commitment and it requires not a constant tending. I don't want to make it sound like it's laborious in a way that is unpleasant, but there is a commitment for me to sit down every day and spend time learning and thinking about that learning and understanding what that means and how it's connected to other things that are also important to me. Nicole (28:14) Hmm. Yeah, that curiosity is feels so important. I feel like gardening too requires like curiosity and testing and like you grab some seeds and you throw them you don't always know what they're going to do. There's so many different variables to to gardening. Podge (28:29) Exactly. You just don't know where it's going to go. You know, I didn't do any starts this year. So I bought starts. And sometimes when you buy starts, you just kind of assume that there's a guarantee that they're going to take off and not all of them took off. And you just don't know, you know, I often will plant kale as a sacrificial crop because the bugs like it and then they stay off of other things. But this year, my kale flourished and I'm just like, so. So now I gotta go figure out what the bugs are eating instead, right? You just never know and it's always different. the same applies to a digital gardening practice. You don't really know where it's going to lead you. It might be something that I got really excited about today. And then tomorrow I'm just like, me? I don't really Nicole (29:13) you Podge (29:13) have, you know? And then maybe I come back to it, you know, six months later and I'm like, what was that? know, and kind of like how one of the reasons I make notes in my notebook for gardening. is because the next time I go and do something, I'm always going to go back and read what I did before. And I want to be really clear to my future self. This is what I did and this is why I did it. This was my thinking. And I do the same thing in digital gardening. I leave myself breadcrumb so that when I come back to it, especially something that I got excited about and then immediately forgot about it, I want to be able to go back and know what my past self was thinking when she was like, this is, you know, this is curious. Like, let's, you know, let's do a little bit of exploration here. Let's take some notes, let's gather some resources, let's see what's going on. Yeah, I want to be able to come back and make that connection because I'm not always going to remember exactly what I was thinking. Nicole (30:05) Yeah, yeah, like the notes app on my phone is just, who even knows what's in there? So many things, need to garden that. Podge (30:12) Listen, don't get me started on a notes app. I've never really used it. I've never used a notes app just because I don't really like being on my phone that much, but Nicole (30:22) Mm. Podge (30:23) it's probably like the number one thing that I hear from people like, what, you know, what's not working about your systems? Well, I've got this over here and I've got stuff in my notes app and I have no idea what's in that. So disorganized. I'm just like, all right, let me help you. Nicole (30:36) Yeah, yeah, because in the moment we're like, I need to remember this. Let me write a note or screenshot. I'll screenshot something on my phone and then like never see it again. Podge (30:45) Yeah. And then you wonder why your phone is just like, you're running out of memory and you're like, no, I don't take this. Nicole (30:48) I know that's happening to me right now. Yeah. That's like my current struggle right now. Um, everything is like, you're running out of memory. My cloud storage is like, pay us more. You need more space. I'm like, Oh my gosh. Podge (31:00) Yes, yes, yes. And I cannot figure out how to create more space on my computer. So I was just like, fine, take my $1.99 a month and give me more storage. Nicole (31:09) Yeah, yes, exactly. Okay, we're gonna start our backwards journey through time. And I want to actually start by naming some synonyms because we'll start to see how these are connected as we go backwards and like tie the threads together. So some there are a lot of synonyms to garden but some of the most interesting that came up in our research are well that I thought that was most interesting as far as like how they compare to each other is we have plant cultivate culture, fertilize weed, which all, you know, imply this tending to that we've been talking about. But then also as a synonym, we have reap, like to reap what you sow. And what I liked about seeing these synonyms in comparison with each other is that you're doing all this work. And then also you're taking as a gardener, right? Like you're tending to and then reaping from as well. So yeah, it just feels very Like it's a whole cycle, right? It's a whole cycle. Yeah. Podge (32:09) It's a, that's exactly what it is. That is exactly what it is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I will be able to, so I built my, my hoop house this year. So I will be able to take some of the seeds from what I'm growing this year, store them over winter and, and replant them next season. So it's not just about the fruit, right. That I get to harvest. It's also about, it's also about the seeds and then, you know, some of these plants, they just, they die off and you've got to, you know, either replant or plant something else. And you have to think about how you need to, put nutrients back into the soil, right? Because, because plants will, will suck nutrients from the soil. And if you want to plant something else, you don't want to plant it into dead soil. So all of these things, I actually really like the two words that I really liked about that you just said there was cultivate. feel like cultivate is always such a lovely word, a great word to use in the line of work that we have, because we are so focused on mindful growth, think, right, Nicole (33:10) Mm-hmm. Podge (33:10) personal growth and business growth, but in a way that is ethical and sustainable and kind and consent based. And then reap. You know, if I'm if I'm gardening, like I mentioned, I'm reaping the rewards of the fruit and the seeds as a digital gardener. I'm reaping the rewards for me, which is like healing around my curiosity and healing around my my educational trauma. But then there's also just, it's, it's, you know, as a kid, I hated being in school so much. And as a child, you you learn by osmosis, right? You learn things even when you're not even trying, but it doesn't happen like that as adult, Nicole (33:54) Mmm. Podge (33:56) right? You have to really try, you have to work really hard. So sometimes it's just really nice, the reaping the benefits of just knowing something that you didn't know yesterday. Nicole (34:05) Yeah. Podge (34:05) And I might forget it again tomorrow, but gosh darn it, today, that was a cool piece of information that is now in my head brain. Nicole (34:12) Yeah, a small moment of delight that might be triggered by some smell in the future. Podge (34:17) Exactly, exactly. Nicole (34:21) Okay, let's look at the 1828 definition and this is in Merriam-Webster and this is interesting. It's an interesting dictionary to pinpoint because Webster spent like 20 years writing it. His mission was for America to have its own definitions of these words as opposed to the British dictionary, which is, you was the prominent one. So let's take a look at his 1828 definitions and keep in mind that Webster is a human who has biases and agendas. So always keep that in mind when we're looking at dictionaries. Okay, so garden. A piece of ground appropriated to the cultivation of herbs or plants, fruits and flowers, usually near a mansion house. land appropriated to the raising of culinary herbs and roots for domestic use is called a kitchen garden. That appropriated to flowers and shrubs is called a flower garden, and that to fruits is called a fruit garden, but these uses are sometimes blended. He goes on to give some examples. First one, the intervals on the river Connecticut are all a garden. Lombardy is the garden of Italy. Okay, I'll pause there. Podge (35:49) That is so interesting because I actually live like just a few miles from the Connecticut River. Nicole (35:54) Yeah, I made a note of that. was like, ooh, I was like, this is where I'm from. This is where Paj is. Yeah. Podge (35:58) Yeah. Wait, you're from here? Nicole (36:02) I'm from Connecticut, yeah. I don't know. You do know. Podge (36:04) Did I know that? No, okay, Jeremy, you're gonna have to edit this out, but you gotta tell me really quick, because I used to live in Connecticut. Where are you from? Nicole (36:12) Well, I grew up in Roxbury, which is Podge (36:15) Mm-hmm. Nicole (36:15) pretty far from the Connecticut River. It's like over on the west side of Connecticut. Podge (36:18) Okay. Nicole (36:20) But then I also lived for a while in Granby, Connecticut, which is closer Podge (36:23) Mm-hmm. Nicole (36:23) to the Connecticut River and very close to Mass, the border in Western Mass. Yeah. Yeah. Podge (36:26) Yeah, it's right there. Yeah, it's all the way in the north. Okay, okay. All right. All right. Back to our originally scheduled programming. It's so interesting to me that this, word... my God, what was the word? just. Was it a. Nicole (36:45) The intervals on the River Connecticut are all a garden was the example. Podge (36:47) No, before that, what was the- read me the first sentence that you read. Nicole (36:53) yes, okay, yeah, I thought this might stand out. A piece of ground appropriated to the cultivation of herbs or plants, fruits and flowers, usually near a mansion house. Podge (37:03) appropriated. Nicole (37:06) Mmm, ooh, yes, say more. Podge (37:10) I mean, so, so I'm reading a book right now very, very slowly because it's a hard book to read. It's called The Original Sins, The Miseducation of Black and Native Americans or Children or something by E.V. Ewing. And this is where so, you know, I didn't grow up in this country, but I have lived here for a long time and I wasn't educated here. So I didn't really understand what. the Jefferson thing was all about. Like I didn't really know very much about Jefferson. And what I now understand about Jefferson is that he was this really intelligent guy who wanted to set a high standard of education and he wanted that education to look very particular. I it's really just modeled off of British education, which is also very imperialistic. So it's not, you know, it's not really any better. But Webster was really inspired by him. And I almost never go to the Webster dictionary for this very reason. Nicole (38:06) Share, yeah. Podge (38:09) You know, I mean, you know, it's the definition of words, but there is something, there's something so pompous about this, right? Nicole (38:15) Mm-hmm. Podge (38:16) Not just using the word, not just using that word, but then, you know, the garden of a mansion? Like, what is that? Near a mansion? Nicole (38:21) Yeah, usually near a mansion house. It implies like a class, right? Like only a certain class can have a garden is what I'm seeing Podge (38:28) Yes, Nicole (38:29) there. Yeah. Podge (38:29) yes, but you know, slaves used to have their own gardens in the back of plantations. They used to grow their own food. know, slaves brought over seeds from Africa in the corn rows. And, you know, that's why North Carolina has all of that rice. That's where all of that comes from. This is why we grow okra in the South, right? where you are. I actually grew some okra last year, but it grows really well down where you are. All of that was brought over. know, black people in this country have been gardening for many, many, many generations and going back to pre-slavery. So I find it really interesting that Mr. Webster. Nicole (39:16) Yeah. Podge (39:17) thinks that gardening is exclusive to mansions. And you know, when I hear mansions, I hear white folks. I hear wealthy white folks. That's what I hear. Yeah. Nicole (39:24) Mm-hmm. Yeah, well, that's why it's so important to keep him in mind like every time we look at the dictionary I mention it because it's It's not even that he thinks that it's connected to mansions It's that he's trying to make the historical record that it's connected to mansions like I feel like sometimes his definitions are intentional rewritings of history Podge (39:45) That is so interesting. There's this school of thought in the black community that African-Americans here in America speak white. Nicole (40:00) Mm-hmm. Podge (40:01) The language that people who come from slaves, the language that is spoken is white. And this is kind of what we're talking about here, right? Is that... Mr. Webster created this entire dictionary rewriting history as he saw fit through a very white, very colonized lens, right? Like this is when I talk about educational trauma and I talk about decolonizing traditional education, this is what I'm talking about. It's really important to examine the motivation of the person who's writing these words down, right? That like... Why does he get to decide that a garden can only be connected to a mansion? It's kind of insane. Nicole (40:44) Yeah, it is. Well, because around the same time is when you also, or earlier too, like this is in England, but you get like garden parties, right? Like it's like, and you imagine that as like a fancy event. Podge (40:52) Hmm. Yes, it is a fancy event. Yes, exactly. Like you can imagine, like it makes me think of, my gosh, what is that movie? What is that movie with Renee's Alweger? Bridget Jones. Nicole (41:09) yes. Does that take place in Connecticut? It might. Podge (41:13) Bridget Jones? No, it's in England. Yes, and like, I think it's the first Nicole (41:14) Yeah, is it New York City? it's in England. my gosh Podge (41:18) movie where she goes to a garden party and it's it's, tarts and vickers, which is like, I don't even want to get started on that, but everybody is like dress up. You're a woman, you dress up like a tart, which is basically like. And not, it's just a slightly kind of word for a slut, but that's basically what it is. And then all the men dresses, but it's like outdoors and like everybody has these like cut glass accents. You know, it's very fancy, very posh. Yes, a garden party. my gosh. Nicole (41:45) Garden party, yeah. I also, for some reason a memory that comes to my mind that is, what's that show? Gilmore Girls and like the parents in Gilmore Girls too. I imagine like them having Podge (41:57) Yes! Nicole (41:58) their Connecticut garden parties. Podge (42:00) What? Nicole (42:02) Yeah, but like you said, Podge (42:03) Yes. Nicole (42:03) like gardens, like if you go on tours of these gardens in the UK or other places in Europe, right, where it's like they spent so much time, or in New England too, they spent so much time like, cultivating these gardens and they're so proud of like the artistry of them. I think the Podge (42:19) Yes. Nicole (42:20) part of it is giving a tour, a tour of what is there that has been gardened, usually not by the actual owner of the garden. Podge (42:30) Yeah, absolutely. Right. Like there is like in some ways it's sort of a status, you know, and a couple of owners before us in this house, apparently she kept this whole piece of property really nicely garden, like very well cultivated. And then the owner before us, the person that we bought the house from definitely didn't do that. It kind of got a bit wild. And then when we bought it, then we had to have... you know, we had this opportunity to reimagine what we could make the property look like through gardening, right? And when you were talking about like this, you know, this curation, this almost like manicuring, right? Like that's definitely like one approach or one aesthetic around gardening. We're a lot more wild. Like we have a whole wildflower meadow in front Nicole (43:23) Hmm. Podge (43:24) and then we've got, you know, food in the back and then we also live on the on a river bend. So it's all kind of wild down by the river full of invasives because you know the early settlers were Nicole (43:34) Yes Podge (43:35) really smart and thought let's bring over all these cool plants from Japan. Yeah. Nicole (43:41) and they just take over. There's nothing to slow them down. there's that vine, that vine with the red berries. I forget what it's called, but it just like, when I was in Connecticut, it was just like, swallowing all the trees. Yes. my gosh. And it was, I Podge (43:52) Yeah, bittersweet, bittersweet. Yeah, yeah. Nicole (43:57) remember I would go out there every once in while, just like chop them down. But they, it was, they just come back. Yeah. Podge (44:00) Yeah, and they just come back with a vengeance, Nicole (44:03) Yeah. modern usage that is in a lot of the older definitions is like a beer garden, a concert venue, a park. Those are a little different than some of the more historical uses. In the 1920s is when we start to get garden variety. So that's, you know, a newish use. And in 1925, we get to lead someone up the garden path, meaning to deceive or entice. Like a garden is a place you get lured into. Podge (44:37) Is that a biblical thing? Is that because Ains pricked Adam? The original sin? Nicole (44:38) I don't know actually. I bet it is. Yeah, the original sin was in a garden. It makes me think too, have you watched Bridgerton? Podge (44:50) Mm-hmm. Nicole (44:51) You know, like when they're in the garden is like when you're going to, like you're in the dark garden outside of the party. And like, if you get caught in the garden. like as a woman with like a man you're not married to, then everyone's gonna assume something untoward is happening and you must therefore get married. Yeah. Podge (45:09) You have to. Yeah. If you were in the garden alone with this guy, you're to marry him now. are the rules. Nicole (45:13) Yeah, exactly. You got enticed into the garden. But I bet it is connected to Eden. Yeah. Podge (45:22) Yeah, leading someone down the garden. Yeah, and it's quite a clunky phrase. Right? Like it doesn't... Nicole (45:31) Yeah. Does not roll off the tongue. Podge (45:36) You have to really commit to that. Nicole (45:37) Yeah. Okay, okay. So 1840s is when we start to get garden party as a social occasion. The 1600s is when garden starts to be used as an adjective such as a garden gate or a garden hose. And in the late 1200s is when the English borrowed, I'm going to say this wrong, but garden from Old North French, meaning a kitchen garden or an orchard or palace grounds. And that French word traces back to the vulgar Latin, which is like the commonly used Latin of hortus gardenis, which literally means an enclosed garden. And this was picked up via a Frankish or other Germanic word, which is gardo. And then if we go further back, we get proto-Germanic garden, which gives us the old English yard and the Gothic got yards, guards, which both simply mean an enclosure. So the further back we get, the more it is simply like enclosed, something that is enclosed. Podge (46:46) So, okay, okay, okay, because this is making me think, do you know much about the enclosure movement? Nicole (46:52) No, I do not. Podge (46:53) I know a little bit about it. Let's see if I can like muddle through some kind of explanation that will make sense to people listening. So I think this was around the 1600s in England. So prior to that, just regular people in England lived. you know, in whatever structures that they lived in, but the open space was shared. So you would sort of garden, whatever was close to you, but you would trade with your neighbors. I mean, this is really Nicole (47:25) you Podge (47:26) probably a bit more like, I were to translate that to the U.S., if you think about Manhattan Island, Manhattan Island was a trade place. So tribes from all over, like as far down as Virginia, and as far west as Western New York and probably parts of Pennsylvania as well, you know, Maine, everybody would go to Manhattan Island and they would trade there. So it's that type of environment where you cultivate what's immediately around you because it's convenient, but then you travel a little bit further so you can share what you have with other places. And Nicole (48:03) Hmm. Podge (48:04) then what happened was... the British monarch. So, so much wisdom. They Nicole (48:11) You Podge (48:12) decided they wanted to enclose areas and create these, you know, create these parishes. So now you, this is where you get into ownership. So the, the, the lords of the area would own everything, right? And we're talking about like towns and towns and towns worth of land. They would own it. And then they would rent it out to the people. And the only way that you could pay that rent was to grow food or grow whatever, make things and sell them to each other. And so that Nicole (48:43) Hmm. Podge (48:44) was the enclosure movement. So we went from a really more of shared economy to more of a like early capitalist economy. And so Nicole (48:53) Yeah. Podge (48:54) that's really interesting that those early definitions of garden meant enclosure, because this had a huge cultural impact on the UK in the 15 and 1600s. Nicole (49:05) Hmm. Yeah, that's so interesting. Because if we get back to the Proto Indo European root of the word, it is Gair, which just means to grasp or to enclose. So that is like the root definition. So that is. Yeah, that's fascinating. And also, you probably heard in there. That sound of yard, right? Coming from Yeah, from the Podge (49:29) Yes, never even occurred to me that yard and garden like are really quite similar. Nicole (49:35) Yeah, well, and I have a bit more information at this point in my notes that I can like share to kind of support what we were saying earlier. But the difference between my garden and my yard, it was more about class, right? Like who could afford to cultivate their enclosure instead of just having one. So garden is more like intentional and tended, whereas yard was just more like less less tended, less like just a plot of land. So that also implies wanting to use the word garden to be more fancy about what you had. Podge (50:12) where it kind of comes from. Yeah, yeah Nicole (50:14) Yeah, yeah. Podge (50:16) this thing that you can afford to tend to presumably because you can afford the time, right? Nicole (50:22) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Podge (50:23) Versus something that you can't really afford to tend to so it just needs to function at a very basic level and that's where that lawn thing kind of comes in. You just got to mow it every now and again and it you know that's it but there's nothing Nicole (50:36) Yeah. Podge (50:37) really very sexy or attractive or appealing about it. It's just very kind of baseline functional. Nicole (50:44) Yeah, yeah. Which is interesting again because garden variety is like an insult so I'm like wait, but now I'm confused. Is it fancy or is it garden variety? Podge (50:53) I'm also wondering if that had to do with, that has to do with, varietals that you'll have, you can have multiple varietals of the same plant. And some of those varietals are going to be more attractive or appealing than others, the more rare they are. So if I think Nicole (51:20) Mm. Podge (51:21) about, for example, Trilliums, do you know what trilliums are? They're these really, yeah, they're these really Nicole (51:25) I know the word, but I don't have like a picture in my Podge (51:29) cool plants and they grow these really incredible, very delicate flowers and they're shade loving mostly. You couldn't see them in other places, but you'll find them in the wild. And there's one just around the corner from my house that's endemic. So you only really find it here. You can't find it somewhere else. So that's a lot more appealing. And I'm wondering if there was something about... garden variety that meant the more common varietal of a particular species. Nicole (51:57) Mm-hmm. Podge (51:57) And that's why it became, didn't, it didn't have to, it didn't, it wasn't so pedestrian that you didn't use the word garden, which is this more elevated version of a yard, but you did want to make some sort of distinction. I'm making this up. You did want to make some sort of distinct distinction between a more common varietal and a more rare and, and, and appealing varietal. Nicole (52:20) Yeah, it sounds good to me. It's on record now. Yeah. Yeah. Podge (52:20) I made that whole thing up. It's just a guess. Thank you. Okay. That'd be pretty good, right? It is on the record. It's just like, we just, we just wrote a little history right there. Nicole (52:30) Yeah, yeah. I will say, I'm curious if you feel the same, getting to the root of the word garden, like I don't love it. I don't love that it means enclosed and it invokes the enclosure movement or other sort of. kind of intentional separations. Like I love the word garden in the way we use it now. And I love the cultivate aspect of it. But do you think from like your perspective is the way you use it, the way you want garden to be seen, like how does the grasp or enclose kind of fit with the vision you want of gardening? Podge (53:14) Yeah, because it's quite, I mean, like a lot of language, especially language. that yeah, that comes from those European roots. It's very colonial, Nicole (53:26) Mm. Yeah. Podge (53:29) which makes sense. That's what they Nicole (53:31) Yeah. Podge (53:31) were doing, right? They got to make the language and that's what they were doing. You look at other languages, other sort of smaller, more obscure languages, there isn't so much of this colonial influence in them. And this really kind of brings it back to decolonizing knowledge. Nicole (53:48) Mm-hmm. Podge (53:49) We decolonize knowledge by claiming it for ourselves, especially as people in a minority, that my collection of knowledge, my pursuit of knowledge does not have to... fit into a colonial standard. It doesn't have to happen in a classroom. I Nicole (54:20) Mm-hmm. Podge (54:21) do not have to pay for it. It does not have to, I do not have to take it as gospel, right? These are the ways in which we really truly decolonize knowledge. For me, digital gardening as a practice and as a tool for healing. is about figuring out intuitively where I want to go in terms of my pursuit of knowledge and the decolonization that comes into that is questioning what I'm reading, questioning what I'm learning, is not just assuming that because it's written in a book or because somebody wrote it in an article or quite frankly if someone's talking about it in a video. Nicole (55:12) Mm. Podge (55:12) that it is true or that it has to be something that I take on, right? Education has been and continues to be a tool for colonization, for indoctrinating people into white supremacy thinking. And it's important for me. as a teacher, as a digital gardener, as an adult learner, and as a person in a minority, right, with a neurodivergent brain, it's really important to me to always be. cognizant of... how knowledge and the pursuit of it and the sharing of it flows in and out of my world. Nicole (56:02) Yeah, I think that's super important. And why we also have to remember the writers and their intentions, yeah. Let's look at some other cousin words. So these are words that share the same root. And it can be fun to just see how it's separated. So one of the ones that stood out to me was choir or chorus or cohort. it comes via Latin, so eventually the root becomes cohors in Latin, and that leads to this branch of choir chorus cohort. Podge (56:38) So what's the, what, what, wait, what's the shed root with garden? What's the shed root? Nicole (56:41) Yeah, it's the, so the earliest route is the, the gear to clasp or enclose, but then that eventually kind of grows into the Latin cohors, which is an, choir chorus and that the, like where that originally, like what it meant was more like a company of soldiers or an enclosed like area. But I like it becoming this more musical, or we, even in our world now, our solo printer world, I feel like you see the word cohort a lot as a group. But I like thinking of that as also something you have to tend and garden to keep it. Podge (57:26) Yeah, I think about I grew up singing in in choirs and choruses and I have and also all the way through college really and it made me think that a good choir is kind of made or broken by its director, that there is... you need someone who's leading you, right? Like if you want to learn the music and you want to come together and you want to make it sound really good, you know, singing in a group of people, you need someone to sort of lead you and direct you. And it's like the gardener. Nicole (58:03) Yeah. Yes, I love that. Podge (58:06) Yeah. Nicole (58:08) Another interesting cousin word was Asgard, which I don't know much about Norse mythology, but I Podge (58:11) What? I don't either. Nicole (58:15) guess what it literally translates to in Old Norse is literally enclosure of the gods. Podge (58:21) I mean, I've seen Avengers. Nicole (58:23) Yeah, I know I was doing some internet research on Asgard and it's like all of this gaming stuff too, like Dungeons and Dragons Asgard and I was like, So I that was fascinating. Yeah, Podge (58:35) Yeah, I like that. That's a lot more fun. Nicole (58:38) yes. And then we also get, of course, kindergarten, which is literally like children's garden. And a court. think court also comes from that choir, know, like court, courteous, courtesan, Podge (58:52) Mm-hmm. Nicole (58:52) courtier, curtsy, like all of those, like, yeah. Podge (58:58) courtesan and curtsy. Okay, Nicole (59:01) Mm-hmm. Podge (59:02) so now we're like, now we're in, we're in like some kind of like monarch situation. Wait, curtsy, courtesan, court, did you say courtyard? Nicole (59:14) no, but I'm sure that also applies. ke- Podge (59:18) What were some of the other ones you said? Nicole (59:20) It was... let's see, we've got... Curdeus is the one. And curtsy, yeah. Podge (59:23) Curtius, Curtius and curtsy have to be connected, right? Nicole (59:28) Yeah, yeah. And it sounds like it's all from this enclosed, courtly Podge (59:36) Yeah. Nicole (59:36) mansion. Again, going back to that definition, mansion space. Podge (59:39) Yes. No, you've got a king on a throne. You've got a jester. You've got a whole bunch of like sycophants in the room. You've got a bunch Nicole (59:47) Yes. Podge (59:47) of like women sprawled around scantily clad. Like this is not a good scene for people like me. Like I'm the meat in that situation. Nicole (59:54) gosh. Podge (1:00:01) Yeah, this is terrible. We picked a terrible word. Nicole (1:00:03) I know. Well, I mean, yes, the deeper you get into, again, like the European history, like, yes, it is. But Podge (1:00:12) Yeah. Nicole (1:00:12) I think like part of what I think we can take from the conversation is like we can like we don't have to stick with that. Like we don't have to say like, OK, that's the way we're using it now. Like this is one of those words that I feel like has. Like as we've talked about it, has a shadowy past and like we've gotten more uncomfortable as we've dug back. But we can Podge (1:00:34) Yes. Nicole (1:00:34) look at it today and be like, okay, how do we change it though? Like, how do we decolonize it? Podge (1:00:40) Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, it's almost like the reclamation of words like queer, right? It's kind of like Nicole (1:00:46) Mm-hmm. Podge (1:00:46) that. You can take words and you can decide that, no, I'm going to take whatever loaded power out of it that you have, wielding your colonization sword, and I'm going to turn it into something positive for who I am and what I represent. Yeah. I mean, we're speaking Nicole (1:01:03) Yeah. Podge (1:01:04) English here, right? This is inevitable. Nicole (1:01:08) Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly. Podge (1:01:09) Yeah. Nicole (1:01:10) We're questioning our own the language that we're Podge (1:01:13) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Nicole (1:01:15) Okay, let's start to wrap up by looking at a few quotes and seeing how we feel about them Podge (1:01:21) Okay. Nicole (1:01:23) Okay, so one of them is from Michael Pollan have you read Michael Pollan? He has a new book. gosh. I forget what it's called Podge (1:01:32) I haven't read him. I used to see him around. We lived near to each other. I used to see him sometimes, but I lived in a place where lots of famous live, lots of famous people live. So it's not that unusual, but yeah, I'm familiar with it. I'm familiar enough with his work. Yeah. Nicole (1:01:45) Okay, he talks a lot about plants and like, he's the one who first I think he was one of the earliest people to talk about this idea that plants cultivated us. Like the like, Podge (1:01:55) Mmm. Nicole (1:01:56) because you know, like, we are doing what they need and want, in order to flourish. And I always found that fascinating. Podge (1:02:03) Mmm. Mmm. Nicole (1:02:06) But the quote I want to see how you feel about is nature abhors a garden. Podge (1:02:12) nature pulls a garden. Nicole (1:02:14) Mm-hmm. And this is one of his earlier books. I think it's before botany of desire when he started talking about plants cultivating us So he might even be contradicting himself here. But do you think nature abhors a garden? Podge (1:02:26) Well, this is kind of, you know, one of the theories behind permaculture, Nicole (1:02:32) Hmm. Podge (1:02:33) that you can actually create an enclosed system that you sort of don't have to do anything with, right? Like you can sort of set up a garden in such a way you sort of, abide by these, you know, that I think there are like nine principles of permaculture, several layers of a permaculture garden. And the idea is once you sort of set them up, they all kind of work in harmony with each other. And which is why that edge is actually what I mentioned earlier, right? Like this, the one layer of a permaculture garden is the edge. And I think that's kind of what he's saying is that once you enclose a garden off, you create a barrier within the natural world. Nicole (1:03:13) Mm-hmm. Yeah, I also often think I live in an area where there are a ton of fences like a ton of fences around our yards and how hard that can make Traversing the land for animals like the squirrels jump over it just fine But you know the coyotes have to find their way around and we do have those Podge (1:03:37) Yeah, it's a problem. Yeah, for sure. I Nicole (1:03:40) Mm-hmm. Podge (1:03:40) urbanization in general, suburbanization is a huge problem for the natural world. Yeah, I mean, I think he's right. Nicole (1:03:49) Yeah. And then kind of an opposing quote from Penelope Hothouse, who's a British garden writer, designer, lecturer. She's contemporary. She says, gardens are the result of a collaboration between art and nature. Podge (1:04:07) Hmm. Nicole (1:04:09) Bye! Podge (1:04:11) yeah it's too bad this isn't a video because i'm just contorting my face into all kinds of shapes Nicole (1:04:16) you Podge (1:04:17) i mean i i suppose there's artistry and gardening you know Nicole (1:04:20) Yeah, I think in the way we want to use it there is. Podge (1:04:25) I think, well, I think, I mean, I think it depends, right? Like I, the way that I garden is a little bit closer to permaculture, which Nicole (1:04:32) Mm-hmm. Podge (1:04:32) is less about designing for aesthetic and more about designing for function. Nicole (1:04:40) Hmm, okay. Yes, but also beauty Right because we're more likely to I'm going back my brain is going back to to what you said about like we're more likely to use our notion spaces if they are beautiful Podge (1:04:52) That is true. That is true. But, but, but what, but what, by what beauty standard, right? Like I Nicole (1:04:58) I see, yes. Podge (1:05:00) have a, on, on, on the side of my house here, my house doesn't face the road for some reason, just it faces my neighbor. So the side of my house here is on, is on the road and we have a wildflower meadow here and it's crazy. It's totally crazy, but they're all native plants and they're Nicole (1:05:14) Hmm. Podge (1:05:15) all pollinators. And this area over here is, is rich with pollinators right now, right across the street. My neighbor has also a beautiful garden, but it's very, very curated. There's mulch everywhere. Like I would never build a garden like that. These are Nicole (1:05:30) Hmm. Podge (1:05:30) two, I think mine is beautiful and his is fine. He probably looks across the street and he's just like, what are these people doing? You know, this, that Nicole (1:05:40) care. Podge (1:05:41) just looks wild. So I think you have to, you have to also examine what's the standard of, of, of beauty that we're going by here, because I think. you might come to my garden and not think it as beautiful as my neighbor Greg's garden across the Nicole (1:05:55) Mm. Podge (1:05:56) street. But to me, this is an aesthetic that I much prefer. Nicole (1:06:00) Yeah, we have a neighbor that has wild flowers and native plants and there's a little sign in it that says, know, this is, you know, this is for the bees. I forget exactly what it says, but there are, Podge (1:06:10) Yeah. Paula Nader-Gardner. Nicole (1:06:13) yeah, pollinator garden, but they have to kind of call that out because otherwise, like the people that go around in their trucks and measure your grass to make sure it's not too high, otherwise they'll give you a $150 fine. Yeah, it's wild. Podge (1:06:28) Wait, what? The town does that? Nicole (1:06:29) Yeah, get it. The town does it. Yeah, you get a fine if your grass grows too high. Podge (1:06:35) Is it for aesthetics or is it for ticks? Nicole (1:06:38) think it's aesthetics. I know. It's like they want Podge (1:06:41) I'm so sorry. Nicole (1:06:42) like a uniform. It's like an HOA. We're not in an HOA, but it's like, yeah. The whole town. Yeah, yeah. Podge (1:06:46) The whole town is basically like HOA light. Okay. Nicole (1:06:52) So yeah, you can get a fine if your grass is too long. But I think it only, we're renting, so like our landlord takes care of the grass, so I'm not as familiar with it. But I think it's only for a certain like distance, like a couple feet to the curb. Podge (1:07:04) Right, okay. Nicole (1:07:05) So their pollinator garden starts a bit back, but they have to Podge (1:07:07) Hahaha Nicole (1:07:08) declare it so that no one calls the town on them. Podge (1:07:13) I love that, that's great. Nicole (1:07:15) Yeah. Okay. Let's start to wrap up. feel like this conversation was like, whew, I feel conflicted actually. My body is like, I feel so weird. So the word garden. If people are to leave this conversation, leave listening with your definition, if we are rewriting our own definition of the word garden, what would you like them to take? Podge (1:07:44) So the words that come to mind are. Do it, ship. and community. and Sharing? and intimacy. Nicole (1:07:55) Mm. That's perfect. Yeah, it reminds me of earlier in our conversation, we too, we were talking about like the abundance of a garden and how you can give that out. Yeah. Okay, Paj, where can people go to learn more about you and your work? Podge (1:08:14) Okay. So the people can go to podgethomas.com and that's where you can read the essays that I have written about decolonization, about notion, about educational trauma, about metacognition, which is something we did not touch upon today. So I've got Nicole (1:08:31) Mm. Podge (1:08:32) a whole bunch of essays on my website that you can read. And you can also learn about the different offers that I have workshops, on demand things, group. programs if you want to learn notion from an intuitive lens from a lens of committing to learning through a lens of I guess really metacognition adult learning so self-learning if you want so if you're not super interested in like Thomas Frank teaching notion on YouTube, right? Like here is Nicole (1:09:12) Hmm. Podge (1:09:13) how you build this thing, but you really want to learn it for the purpose of being able to build intuitive systems, really learn how to use the tool for yourself. Then that's, I would say definitely like stick around, sign up for my newsletter, see what I'm doing and maybe come to, you know, a workshop here and there and see how you like my teaching style and see how it. changes the way that you think about learning Notion. Nicole (1:09:43) Hmm, yes, and if I can give a personal plug every time I go to one of podge's classes I feel like my gosh, everything just got so much clearer for me and my business feels like so organized, guess, like into these enclosed spaces. But yes, Podge (1:10:02) Mm. Nicole (1:10:02) I love Paj's classes and you should definitely check out her website and attend one if you can. So thank you, Paj. Podge (1:10:11) Thanks, Nicole.