Latest / Expertly Said / Jennifer Gremmels on the Value of Active Listening in Communications
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- Kristen Sweeney: My guest today is Jennifer Gremels, Director, Regulatory Communications at AbbVie. Jennifer is a communications leader with deep experience in internal and external communications, change management, media relations, and crisis communications. Trained as a journalist, she began her career as a local television reporter in Michigan and Florida, where she developed the strong storytelling, clarity, and urgency that continue to shape her work today. She has since led high-impact communication strategies across global organizations. helping translate complex issues for diverse audiences, strengthen stakeholder alignment, and drive meaningful organizational change. At AbbVie, she leads a team focused on regulatory communications and change management, partnering with senior leaders to support enterprise growth, engagement, and operational excellence. Jennifer, welcome to the show. Jennifer Gremmels: Thanks so much. Glad to be here. Kristen Sweeney: I'd love to start by asking our guests a little bit about their origin story. And I'm excited for the, sounds like this is not your first time in front of the camera. So can you tell us a little bit about ⁓ your entry into journalism and ⁓ hit for us that kind of time as a reporter as well? Jennifer Gremmels: Sure, You know, it's always tough to be 18 and trying to figure out what you want to do for the rest of your life, but I've always had a passion for telling other people's stories and sharing information. When I saw broadcast ⁓ as an option, a way to tell the story, I fell in love with it. The ability to tell a story through a video medium just really, really became kind of the love of my life. There's something about being able to tell a story, both audio and visually, and being able to capture someone's quotes that way. I think it's just one of the best ways you can tell a story holistically and really really feel and be a part of that story. It's as close as you can come to being a part of that person's life, I think. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. And what brought you to Florida? I'm in the Tampa area myself and grew up here. Was previously in Boston and up north for a lot of years, but I'm back in Tampa now. So I'm curious where you were. Florida. Jennifer Gremmels: ⁓ nice. Yeah. ⁓ Well, in the late 90s, there was I had worked with the director in Lansing and she had moved down to ⁓ Tallahassee. were starting a statewide ⁓ Florida's news channel cable ⁓ organization to ⁓ like they had put a bunch of money into it, you know, at the time elevators, you know, kind of what we would think of AI elevators going up on set these days type of things, a of money into a statewide ⁓ news organization, all new tech and everything. And ⁓ I had an opportunity to be their education reporter based in Jacksonville. And it was a really exciting time to be part of something that was so cutting edge. ⁓ Unfortunately, it didn't end up lasting too long. I think we might have been on the cusp of things just a little too early for some of the the statewide ⁓ outlets, but I think, ⁓ you know, it's kind of nice to be a part of that piece of history. And at that point, I kind of decided, did I want to ⁓ Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, sure. Jennifer Gremmels: keep moving and you know trying to get to a bigger market each year or ⁓ did I want to think about how I wanted to work in this field a little bit differently and ⁓ some of my friends had started to move into corporate communications, agency communications. I had spent some time at doing an internship during the 96 election at CNN and really enjoyed working in the political unit. I have a real passion for policy and politics. So I focused my job search on moving to an agency back in Washington and landed at a crisis firm there. So I sold myself in by saying, I can help you with the media relations. side of things and over the course of the next four years I helped them you know get media placements and media train clients but then I learned the account side of the business so I could then go out and ⁓ broaden you know kind of my PR skill set my corporate communication skill set and through the work I did at the crisis firm, I had the opportunity to start working and serving, you know, real broad base of clients. Our clients were all confidential, but kind of across the board of consumer products, ⁓ different trade associations, life sciences, and really fell in love with focusing on healthcare. So ⁓ ended up being able to move into ⁓ pharmaceuticals at that point. And ⁓ that's where my work in pharmaceuticals took off after that four-year stint in Washington. I moved in-house to pharmaceuticals. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. What was it about, excuse me, what was it about healthcare that really appealed to you specifically? I know, you know, I talked to lots of folks who ⁓ think there's a way in which there's a general, we all kind of get it, right? Like what draws us to ⁓ work in healthcare, but I'm curious what specifically for you really resonated. Jennifer Gremmels: Yeah. Yeah, I think for me, I grew up in a healthcare family and I knew I wasn't meant to be on the front lines per se, but I knew I had that caring nature and I wanted to make a difference. So I wanted to use my skill set to make an impact in some way, or form. So this was my way of helping, you know, tell the story. get the news out about the important work being done to treat patients across a variety of therapeutic areas. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, I really relate to that. also come from a healthcare family and I'm a super squeamish, you know, was the artsy one. Like, so I always understood I wouldn't participate in the traditional way. like to say, I think fondly of my, um, she's still a good friend of mine. My, uh, shout out to Collette, my high school biology lab partner, because I was great at the book work, but she carried me through the labs. Like, Jennifer Gremmels: Yeah, me too. Yep, I hear that totally. Kristen Sweeney: certainly need be responsive ⁓ is critical in regulatory work. ⁓ Your bio ⁓ urgency as kind of a key ⁓ tenet of your communications approach. ⁓ I'm if you could talk a bit the idea of urgency, what means for you ⁓ and how it shows up in your work. Jennifer Gremmels: Yeah, yeah, and I'll be clear just to make sure I state this that none of my comments here are related to my employment currently. ⁓ you know, absolutely not. But ⁓ I think for me, you know, when you're trained as a journalist, everything is deadline driven. And you're always trying to work in an environment of a lot of ambiguity and still moving as quickly as possible. And when you're trained that way, it's a way you always you always kind of tend to move that way. So I've almost had to really kind of get myself to slow down, take a deep breath, realize that it's okay to wait a day to sleep on it too because sometimes ⁓ are changing so quickly or may be so chaotic that, you know, they change one way one day and then they change again another day that sometimes just slowing down can have its merits too. And getting all of the cross-functional input that you need to make sure you've got a thorough analysis of everything. Now it doesn't mean I don't love to get it all assessed as quickly as possible. I like to move things forward. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, yeah. Jennifer Gremmels: I like to demonstrate results. But it's so important to make sure that we have the full picture or as full of a picture as possible. Understanding that there's a lot of ambiguity in the work we do. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Yeah, two things that made me think of. Yeah. Yeah. Something that's made me think of was, ⁓ so I think there's a tendency in communications, even the content work that we do, that the easiest thing to measure or demonstrate results is outputs, right? So it's like, did you publish the thing? Did you write that email? Did you? Jennifer Gremmels: but I've definitely had to slow myself down. Yes. Kristen Sweeney: you know, get the press release picked up. ⁓ But much of the work that's sort of the invisible work in some ways is the decision. And sometimes the decisions you make to not do something and again, harder to measure. It's like, you know, yeah, the problems we prevent, it's harder to ⁓ kind of. Jennifer Gremmels: Exactly. Kristen Sweeney: understand the full weight of the thing that didn't happen because you waited a day or you were mindful or you chose not to respond and wait a week and see how things, know, see how the guidance may change again. So that's a really, that's the part I think about a lot in that, you know, your statement reminded me of that. And the other one, we have some experience working with, we worked with at one point about 50 small manufacturers and a phrase I heard over and over again from that space was slow is smooth and smooth is fast. And so it was this idea that the end goal is to move as quickly as possible. But in some cases, that means getting it right every step of the way so that you can move through a process seamlessly. It's not about rushing each individual action, but looking at the big picture and saying, how do we get there? as quickly as possible. ⁓ And sometimes, again, that slow is smooth and smooth is actually fast. It made me think of that as well. think that aligns with some of what you were saying. Jennifer Gremmels: totally agree and we used to say in crisis situations like it's a challenge to measure what you were able to prevent when I was doing crisis communications you know I mean it's hard to kind of show the good work you did when you were able to prevent something from happening. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I'm curious because you talked a little bit about needing to know when to take a step back. think with a sort of constant emphasis on efficiency and productivity, we are all so interconnected. can talk to each other across several channels all day long. ⁓ And then we layer AI on top of that, which is able to produce very quickly, you know, the merits of that, et cetera. But like, I think that there's a very real possibility and ⁓ concern that suddenly everything is urgent and has that pressure. So how do you evaluate, you know, knowing your own tendency to move forward and you can kind of rely on that maybe, how do you evaluate where do I need to really step on the gas and where can I consciously say I can't go full bore at every single thing I need to get done? Jennifer Gremmels: Yeah, and it's an ongoing, every day, sometimes multiple times a day assessment, I think. I think the more we continually prioritize, the better. And the more we're willing to spend that time thinking through that prioritization and then flexing as things change, I think that's what Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Jennifer Gremmels: That's what helps us make those decisions because I've had lots of conversations where colleagues have said, but you needed this first. And I'm like, yes, we did talk about that being top priority, but now this has come up and here's the reasons why I think this should come first. What do you think? And I think it's constantly being willing to flex, evolve, think through. ⁓ Also for me, I'm big on gut instincts too. Like if something isn't feeling right to me, I take a step back. I had it just yesterday where I was like, there's something here that doesn't feel totally ticked and tied and I can't put my finger on it. So I'm going to just slow down. go to my checklist of kind of everything I need to make sure was done for this project. And then make sure before we release it that we're good because so much better safe than sorry. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, yeah. I agree. And I think that it's in a very data-driven world. think something like gut instinct can sort of be minimized. But what's helpful for me is to think about the fact that my gut instinct is actually my brain taking in thousands of pieces of information and data points that I can't consciously process. And it manifests as a feeling. Jennifer Gremmels: Yes. Kristen Sweeney: and recognizing that that is as data-driven as anything else, right? Even if I can't quite put a number on it. And sometimes that... Thank you. It's helpful for me, you know, because I think there was a point where I started to have some imposter syndrome around that and was like, well, is this valid? Jennifer Gremmels: Such a wonderful way to articulate that. Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: And that reframe was really, really useful for me. And the other thing, ⁓ we had a similar situation this week where we had been stalled on an approval. And sometimes when that happens, it's because the person is busy. Sometimes, you know, like that's kind of the excuse, right? It's like, I'm too busy. But often when something's really kind of jammed up, ⁓ and we had a meeting with our client and it turned out it was like a much deeper strategic issue. And the direction that we'd set together was no longer feeling aligned when it sort of started to like come to life. And that's a great conversation for us to have. But I think there would be a way in which we could have have minimized it and been like, ⁓ they're so busy. You know, they're so busy. They just can't get to it when really there is. you know, it was my client's gut instinct being like, something isn't right here. And so that's blocking me from moving forward. It is not just a logistical issue. And we need to really go deeper to find out what's happening so we can realign together. Cause we were aligned on the thing we thought we wanted. And it turned out that wasn't the thing we wanted. And that happens sometimes. And the other thing I love is that you, talked about how you provide upfront kind of that justification for pivots and quick changes and reprioritization. And I think that can really make all the difference of here's why I'm asking you to change versus otherwise that can be perceived from the outside as disorganized or don't know what they want or, you know, versus when that ration, when you're able to connect the dots for someone, ⁓ it goes a long way into sort of getting what you need, but also helping them. Jennifer Gremmels: Right. Kristen Sweeney: buy into what it is you're asking. Jennifer Gremmels: Well, and just another piece I'm passionate about is, you know, as communicators, our work goes through so many layers of edits and even a simple email that we're going to send out, but it'll go out to, you know. 10, 20,000, 30,000 stakeholders, it needs to be perfect. And, you know, after we've edited it 11 times from, you know, 15 different sources that have reviewed it, we may, as authors, start to not really see it anymore. And I'm a big believer in having one another's back as editors and creators and like on my team we create an editor's network. So before that email goes out another set of eyes sometimes two looks at the mocked up version because you know at a certain point you might not see the grammatical error you know anymore but that way we have each other's back and we have dramatically reduced Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Jennifer Gremmels: any any errors that way and it's really helped morale on the team. Kristen Sweeney: That's great. Yeah, yeah, because that's that shared accountability. And I know what you mean about being so close to it, because I think too sometimes, you know, this happened, there's a, ⁓ was ghostwriting a book for a client and the book is very close to publication after a long development process. But there was a point where I recognized that. Jennifer Gremmels: Mm-hmm. Kristen Sweeney: I could be sort of connecting things in my head that aren't actually on the page. And so I had to make sure as part of owning the process that I handed it off to someone who is only going to have the context of the language as written to say, does this actually make sense? Or where does it need to tighten up? So yeah, I love that. Jennifer, I want to make sure we have time. ⁓ yeah. Yeah, definitely. Jennifer Gremmels: Exactly. It's so important. noise just gonna say it's so important I love to hear that. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. I want to transition us now. And I think in some ways, we've already started a little bit of this conversation to our one big idea. This is where we have a chance to dig into the details of one insight, experience, or aspect of your work that has had a meaningful impact on how you communicate. And the one big idea we talked about you sharing was around active listening. So tell us a little bit about why, and I think particularly in your change management work, ⁓ active listening is so important to you. Jennifer Gremmels: Yeah, I've been passionate about this even from my days as a reporter. I think as a young reporter, I could I can see myself now as a 20 something reporter, so self conscious, trying to build my ⁓ I would do interviews, I would ask a question, and then I wouldn't even hear the answer because I'd be up in my head thinking about did I ask the right question? Or Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Jennifer Gremmels: what's the next thing I need and you know, I realized when I got back to the station, like, I'm not very efficient because I have to listen to the whole interview again because I didn't really, I wasn't present in the moment. And. one of the best pieces of advice I got was to really work hard to be present in that moment. And I worked really hard to do it and it got to the point where I was able to look over at the camera and see the timecode, jot the timecode of a sound bite I wanted to keep in mind for the package. And I've kind of carried that through to my communications work, particularly on the change management side. And I've learned so much from working hard to be present. I am in no way perfect. But I do not, I've heard people call it a soft skill, passive skill. I think it is a deliberate leadership behavior to be an active active listener. And it's more than just hearing the words someone's saying maybe, because also heard leaders get caught up on one word and then start, you know, like hammering on someone about one word choice. ⁓ That's not I'm talking about. It's allowing the person to express themselves with the words that they choose, as long as it's appropriate, not offensive, ⁓ Because really, it trust. and it takes down any walls of defensiveness and it's important to not correct somebody if they mispronounce or use the wrong words because again that takes the defensiveness away it builds that trust and when we're truly engaged with people they feel respected I feel respected when I know you're truly here with me and I'm gonna be more open to the change you want me to make if I know you cared enough to come and hear how I felt about it and that you cared enough to get to the real issue of why I might be resistant and I do truly believe and I look for team members that have this skill set and maybe it's a little bit of empathy too, but the ability to truly sit with someone and be present. I look for team members that can do that because I know they'll be strong in change management. And, you know, I think that is so key to successful change management, to a successful communication campaign, because even communication can't just be a one-way push. You need to be able to really understand the full audience impact and then be able to create messaging that will resonate. ⁓ So being able to understand the perspectives down to a level that truly gets to what the core of the problem is, that's everything. And it gives you a level of influence across the organization that you don't need to have power. of being the CEO, you just need to be the person that truly is present and listening and that they know care. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, I love that. I love that. And it's kind of a meta experience for me because I'm thinking of things I want to share in response, but also just be with you, which is, think, sometimes part of the challenge, right? As you said, you brought it up when you were talking about you're in that conversation, but you also have do have one part of your mind that's looking at the time codes and tracking some different things. ⁓ I think what I wanted to say was that we've probably all had the experience and certainly, you know, I've recorded a lot of episodes of this podcast right now and all of our guests are wonderful. Some answer my actual questions more than others. And I think everyone's had that experience, whether it's in a meeting or, you know, certainly like Jennifer Gremmels: Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: Folks have their talking points and things that they want to kind of cover in certain scenarios, but there is nothing that makes you feel more known when someone can kind of track what you're saying, especially I think if you're trying to express something that's sort of just taking shape, whether that's your feelings or your thoughts, track it and respond to actually what you said. It doesn't mean they can't add their own opinion, but... ⁓ That's a, to me, like a deeply resonant feeling of being known and seen. ⁓ And to be able to offer that to people is really incredible. ⁓ The other thing I wanted to say about this is that, you know, in a different way, our work doesn't focus on change management, but we spend a lot of time collaborating with executives and subject matter experts in these interviews. And so often, the best material doesn't come from them answering the questions we sent in advance, it comes from the follow-ups to their responses. And so it requires that active listening to be able to hear something or say, tell me more about that, or, and trust my own gut, to be honest, as like, that's an interesting nugget, or let's pull on that thread more. And that's not possible without being present because... ⁓ It doesn't take nearly as much skill to ask questions and get answers, but that's not a real dialogue that can sort of make the whole greater than the sum of the parts. Jennifer Gremmels: Exactly. Yeah. I also found at the end of interviews and I do it even in corporate video today or corporate interviews is, is there anything else I haven't asked that you want to make sure we know? Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. I'm curious how you think, know, when we were talking pre-record, you talked about active listening and its value of building influence when you don't necessarily have authority. I think that's a position communications professionals often find themselves in there, the conduit, but maybe not the ultimate decision maker. So I'd love to hear about that. And then as a follow up, how do you navigate Jennifer Gremmels: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Kristen Sweeney: The difference between I'm listening to what you have to say, that doesn't mean you're going to get everything you're asking for or that I can fully fix this for you, right? Yeah. Jennifer Gremmels: Yes, absolutely. Yeah, I think managing expectations is everything. You know, because that's how you build trust to you don't over promise ever you say, listen. I'm just a person too, but I do care and I will take your feedback and share it with the people who have the opportunity to adjust, you know, maybe it's the project scope. ⁓ And I will come back to you and share the rationale for why or why not it can or can't be added. Kristen Sweeney: Mm-hmm. Jennifer Gremmels: And I think that's the type of thing. that helps continue to build that trust. Or I bring the project leads to them to help discuss why or why not it couldn't be added. Because most of the time people are very reasonable. I do have a funny story related to this. I had a boss that kind of had me do something once that was completely out of my comfort zone. Like I was sweating this. We were struggling to see where we were at on adoption for this new system. And I knew there were problems. And she said, Jen, I think let's get all your dissenters in a room and let's hear from them. And I was like, oh my gosh, that sounds like stress overload. So I prepared a discussion guide, I pulled in the project lead, I said I would own the facilitation, and then I thought they're just gonna go for the jugular. It ended up being such a positive discussion with great outcomes of things that we could address, not all of them. but we were able to also pull this group into an oversight committee so they could have ongoing engagement. And instead of saying, you know, why did it take you so long? They said, thank you for asking what we thought. And I learned a lesson in that moment that when... dissenters are being loud and complaining, it's because they care. It's because they want, they care so much about whatever the topic is, typically, that they want to see change. They want to see an impact. And they're willing to be a part of that change. So I learn, I continue to learn. 30 years into my career and take chances. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, leaning into it more and more it sounds like. Jennifer Gremmels: Yeah, it was an amazing experience. Kristen Sweeney: That's really cool. ⁓ such a positive experience. I bet that made you feel really good about humanity, Jennifer Gremmels: Seriously, because like this could have gone a million different ways. Never did I anticipate. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. ⁓ I'm curious how active listening maybe interacts with that sense of urgency that we talked about before when you think about problem solving. ⁓ Because active listening sort of inherently requires you to consult others before moving forward. So can you talk about how those two kind of ⁓ interact or maybe temper one another? Jennifer Gremmels: Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah, I think a couple things. I think it helps you ask the right questions to get to the answers. But often they're the tough questions, so people are avoiding them. I think it helps you, you know, realize you need to ask a broad base of people and so it kind of motivates you to pull that together quickly and then you have a Kristen Sweeney: Mm-hmm. Jennifer Gremmels: a psychological willingness to kind of listen across the board. ⁓ And just be clear and courageous with your approach to getting to the bottom of the challenge is key to... ⁓ having that urgency and getting things done in a timely fashion. It's not, you know, dancing around a problem. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it probably goes back to that, maybe it slows things down, but for a better outcome long term. Jennifer Gremmels: And it does make some people uncomfortable. Because if you're asking tough questions, that can be uncomfortable. I mean, as long as you keep it appropriate, respectful, I think it's a wonderful thing. But the tough questions can be challenging. But that's how we get better. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, yeah. And I think part of active listening is like holding that space for that a bit too, right? Of the person who you're trying to solicit feedback from or just allowing them to share may not have a perfectly prepared way of getting their thoughts across and being okay with that and willing to kind of sit with them. ⁓ rather than think about it as like what you need from them. Jennifer Gremmels: Yep, exactly. Kristen Sweeney: Awesome. Thank you for that conversation. I really appreciate it. I'd like to move us now into our recurring segment. This is last word, a lightning round of five questions. Same questions for every guest. Are you ready? All right, Jennifer, here we go. Question number one. What is your favorite word to say out loud? Jennifer Gremmels: Yes. My son and my dog will kill me for this, but if I'm being honest, I have cute names for them, like the dog I call Handsome Pants. Kristen Sweeney: That's one of the best answers I've gotten to that. That's amazing. Jennifer Gremmels: But now that I have a teenager, I have to lay off calling my son cute names. So I really, the dog just gets pummeled with cute names. Kristen Sweeney: I Handsome pants it is. ⁓ Question two, what's a word you know from reading but you are not quite sure how to pronounce it? Jennifer Gremmels: ⁓ Worcestershire sauce. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, that sounds good. Sounds good to me. Jennifer Gremmels: I don't know. I don't know. Kristen Sweeney: I know that when I lived in Massachusetts it was Worcester, which had most of those letters, ⁓ but ⁓ the nuances of the New England dialect still, you I was there for about eight years and they still elude me. Question three, what's a phrase or saying you wish could be retired for good? Jennifer Gremmels: I couldn't pick just one. Is it okay if I give you two? I cannot stand let's unpack this. It's been way overused. Kristen Sweeney: Absolutely. question about this. I'm now hearing more, let's unpick this, and I'm like, is that related to knitting and like ripping stitches out? Like I, or is it just a like a malapropism? Have you heard this as well? Unpick as well as unpack? Jennifer Gremmels: That's interesting, I have not. Kristen Sweeney: well maybe we could just retire them both because we can't seem to make up our minds as to which one is supposed to be there anyway. Jennifer Gremmels: Yeah, I like the plan to retire them both. And having lived both in the South and the North, we have got to retire bless his or her heart. Kristen Sweeney: It's a little, ⁓ ⁓ it doesn't quite mean what it beats on the surface right? Jennifer Gremmels: No. Kristen Sweeney: Question four, what's a communication practice or principle that's non-negotiable for you? Jennifer Gremmels: Listen first, understand the audience before building the plan and shaping the messages. And then can I share one more? Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, of course. Jennifer Gremmels: ⁓ Another one that's really become important, I was thinking about this this week, is defining success and what good looks like from the top of when you start on a plan so you can build your strategy to achieve it. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, that one really resonates with me. It's something that ⁓ I've struggled with in my career, not because I don't know what success looks like, but because it seems so obvious to me that I have not always articulated it to others. ⁓ And realizing the value of putting what might seem sort of obvious. ⁓ on paper and getting everyone to agree to it ⁓ is high. There's a lot of value in doing that. And it's something I didn't really understand for the early part of my career. I thought, I get it. It's just here. Isn't that fine? Doesn't everyone else see it the same way? Turns out they don't. That's a great one. Jennifer Gremmels: I think you're in good company. Kristen Sweeney: ⁓ my god. Last question, Jennifer, what's the last thing you read, heard, or watched that really stuck with you? Jennifer Gremmels: ⁓ this one I just love and I was turned on to it from I love Brene Brown. ⁓ But I love the quote so much I bought a poster of it and hung it up in my office. ⁓ Theodore Roosevelt's The Man in the Arena quote. It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who's actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs, who comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming, but who does actually strive to do the deeds, who knows in enthusiasm, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails, will daring greatly. Kristen Sweeney: think we're gonna, that's a great way to leave things for us, Jennifer. Thank you for a wonderful conversation and for joining me today. If our listeners wanna learn more about you, ⁓ I'm so glad. ⁓ If our listeners wanna learn more about you, where can they go to find you or connect with you? Jennifer Gremmels: is a pleasure. Yeah, please find me on LinkedIn, Jennifer Gremels, G-R-E-M-M-E-L-S as in Sam. Kristen Sweeney: Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Jennifer Gremmels: Thanks, Kristen.