Latest / New Thinking for a New World / Covering the Last Mile

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Covering the Last Mile · New Thinking for a New World

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Welcome to New Thinking for a New World, A Tilburg Foundation podcast.
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: I am Alan Stoga your host.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: Each week i bring you conversations with people who think differently about the great issues that are shaping our world Geopolitics Disruptive Tech Mass Migration The Changing Climate Culture Wars.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: All of it is grist for our mill!
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: and that you join the conversation at tellbergfoundation.org.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: And now for today's episode of New Thinking For A New World everyone's ecosystems.
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: This is a problem almost everywhere, but it is an enormous problem in India.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: on the one hand that countries sheer size and deep inequality make access to government programs critical literally life-and-death for hundreds of millions people.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: On the other hand india runs a massive array of social welfare programs with your bureaucracy That has not known for its efficiency although very few bureaucracies almost anywhere are.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: Anaket Dogar started with a simple insight, those programs only work if people know they exist understand whether they qualify and can actually navigate the process of accessing them.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: that's why he launched a social enterprise called Hockdershock And Why He Joins Us Today.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: Welcome Anakete to new thinking for New World.
• 1:56
  Speaker 0: Thank you so much Alan for having me here.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: Let's start here.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: Almost anyone, anywhere trying to deal with government bureaucracy instinctively understands that the interface between people and programs perhaps almost always an enormous hurdle.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: as a technologist and entrepreneur in India what led you to focus on building an effective solution?
• 2:18
  Speaker 0: I think there is large gap information access The most important part like i think at every level The citizens, the communities do not have information at the right time.
• 2:31
  Speaker 0: There is information floating all around and I think for me... ...the trigger was when i started as a teacher Right after college!
• 2:39
  Speaker 0: I taught in government schools for two years And my pain point really was that My own students couldn't get access to scholarships.. ..and even fifteen years back with a laptop With wired internet cable.
• 2:51
  Speaker 0: So....I was one of those privileged ones but I just couldn't find those programs.
• 2:57
  Speaker 0: So this frustration of where is the information in the first place?
• 3:03
  Speaker 0: How do you discover programs that are there, i think that kind of led me to this
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: path
• 3:09
  Speaker 0: of finding and founding this organization.
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: so let's talk about the organization Hector Shock at least as I understand.
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: it combines technology and people To bring that technology into communities and the people side, but let's start with technology which is where you started.
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: And evolve towards a much more complicated, much more effective organization.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: how would you describe your approach to the tech?
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: What are that sort of core components of The Technology Platform as you've devolved it.
• 3:45
  Speaker 0: so the enormity off the scale Of the problem is usually we're talking about twenty thousand programs running in India for one point, one billion people out of one point.
• 3:56
  Speaker 0: five where the government is giving some kind of social security support.
• 4:00
  Speaker 0: So just to digitize that government platform right on the supply side there are all these government services which have written in different languages Different rules.
• 4:09
  Speaker 0: so how do you standardize this?
• 4:11
  Speaker 0: That was our first step.
• 4:12
  Speaker 0: or technology How do we create a registry of government services Which very binary or technology model lot of platforms easily readable and not standardized.
• 4:24
  Speaker 0: So that took us the first couple of years to just write the schema in a way, create list of government services that were available.
• 4:32
  Speaker 0: The second part on technology side was creating an eligibility engine.
• 4:37
  Speaker 0: so if you have the government scheme on supply then as citizen how do find am I eligible or no?
• 4:44
  Speaker 0: And this is our starting point.
• 4:48
  Speaker 0: because firstly we started with eligibility assuming that people will just come to our platform and check their eligibility.
• 4:55
  Speaker 0: We quickly found out there is another step before this, which was discovery.
• 5:01
  Speaker 0: People do not know a program exists.
• 5:03
  Speaker 0: That's the first assumption or bias in those two years of building the platform we assumed all these government programs would be lining up but most of them don't.
• 5:15
  Speaker 0: For their lives, entire lives they don't know.
• 5:18
  Speaker 0: there is a rooftop solar program that they can wear.
• 5:20
  Speaker 0: There's the pension program they can get and scholarship for their child.
• 5:24
  Speaker 0: So we built a discovery and eligibility platform as starting core piece of our technology which AI enabled local languages or fourteen local languages so information could be easily accessed And this was kindof phase one.
• 5:41
  Speaker 0: Let
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: me ask a question about that because you said a moment ago twenty thousand programs, which is mind-boggling.
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: Twenty thousand social programs That potentially people have different levels of access to but government Certainly in India.
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: It's not a static phenomenon.
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: it keeps on creating and Eliminating programs.
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: so presumably one of your challenges Is that?
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: But it's not that you ever finished inventorying all the programs making them accessible online, it's that its a permanent task.
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: How do you possibly stay current or relatively current?
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: Current enough perhaps in order to make your platform live at the same pace as government lives?
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: Actually
• 6:30
  Speaker 0: so... It is federal country with twenty eight states whole country different regions So everybody has their own political agenda.
• 6:39
  Speaker 0: The South-Southern part of India is comparable to Eastern Europe in GDP and the Northern part of india, it's comparable to sub Saharan Africa.
• 6:47
  Speaker 0: So democratically It is actually good that we have so many programs catering to so many people.
• 6:53
  Speaker 0: But I think like he rightly said the challenge Is how do you keep it updated?
• 6:56
  Speaker 0: because it's a lot of political motivation?
• 6:58
  Speaker 0: Every year programs get added new cash transfers are added safety nets are added social security programs.
• 7:05
  Speaker 0: India has this unique thing off cost.
• 7:08
  Speaker 0: Apart from income levels and regions, there is also this angle of caste.
• 7:16
  Speaker 0: So we actually started off with about forty researchers.
• 7:20
  Speaker 0: We maintain a research team which continuously updates the data.
• 7:24
  Speaker 0: It's like creating software then keep updating its versions every three months or six months With updated rules, logic eligibility criteria.
• 7:35
  Speaker 0: I mean, with technology that work has become easier.
• 7:38
  Speaker 0: But i think it's still something we have to continuously mintate.
• 7:42
  Speaker 0: so... That is one of the challenges but its thing from a democratic limb.. ..that actually very important because what works for a citizen in eastern part of country doesn't really work for somebody in northern part of the country.
• 7:55
  Speaker 0: So you also need diversity.
• 7:57
  Speaker 0: It's complex problem where you needed but government made it complicated or the political angle that you have to continuously work on it.
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: Let's talk a bit about that second aspect of technology, which is the interface with people how they make consumer-facing part of the technology actually usable for people?
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: So
• 8:20
  Speaker 0: in two thousand fifteen to nineteen we built this scheme registry and then we talked about eligibility platform went back and figured there was a discovery platform to be built.
• 8:30
  Speaker 0: And he paused around eighteen ninety and said now We've built a fantastic platform, we have done a few pilots.
• 8:37
  Speaker 0: Now we will give this product to everyone and everyone will lap it
• 8:39
  Speaker 0: out.".
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: It's called Field of Dreams.
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: Build-It And They Will Come!
• 8:43
  Speaker 0: He was just waiting for them per year and he figured that... ...we had actually go on the ground and do it ourselves.
• 8:49
  Speaker 0: So first went into the citizens but then of course Logistics of India Two & India Three which is essentially The eighty percent of India which is the urban gig workers, urban poor and rural farmers.
• 9:04
  Speaker 0: Which it's a majority for our population.
• 9:06
  Speaker 0: They don't have access to smartphones or internet in their way.
• 9:09
  Speaker 0: we do have family level phones.
• 9:12
  Speaker 0: so It didn't make sense to invest In citizen side information or platforms.
• 9:19
  Speaker 0: What did realize?
• 9:20
  Speaker 0: that?
• 9:20
  Speaker 0: India has done fantastic job in creating these agent networks?
• 9:26
  Speaker 0: Asha workers which are health workers, over like four million health workers.
• 9:30
  Speaker 0: We have primary education workers.
• 9:33
  Speaker 0: we have banking correspondents so there is an agent network before a agent KIA ever came in.
• 9:38
  Speaker 0: There's this human agent network who was actually the lifeline of community Who were taking information helping solve problems getting ground up community issues and all these has been happening without technology Right?
• 9:54
  Speaker 0: So technology is there to help them become more productive.
• 9:57
  Speaker 0: We actually piggybacked on this network and started training these agents, and called him Hadar Shikha's.
• 10:03
  Speaker 0: largely women networks.
• 10:04
  Speaker 0: And our entire pivot of technology became that how can we support these agents These human agents who can go in the communities and help with application which is form filling Submitting for the program at a government office or a government website Then tracking whole process.
• 10:23
  Speaker 0: And the fourth kind of step, which these agents also do is a lot of grievance.
• 10:28
  Speaker 0: If you have health insurance in India as a rural farmer and I actually want to use that health insurance card That it's even more complicated than getting the car right accesses not equal to inclusion comments and people like us Have done some work on Getting people access.
• 10:45
  Speaker 0: but adoption Is another challenge because then People who tell them you have you have access to health insurance Now, go and use it or you have access to pension and claim it.
• 10:55
  Speaker 0: So that a lot of work is done by these human agents who did this.
• 11:00
  Speaker 0: so we actually then build the entire shift with an entire platform to create an agent network model case management system in Agent Management System.
• 11:08
  Speaker 0: on how can These Human Agents Use This App And Map Out Two Hundred Families To Every Agent And Scaled Started Scaling The Program From There Around Twenty-Twenty.
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: network sits effectively between the technology and...the people.
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: The community, individuals who need access And it's their responsibility to make that interface work.
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: That is what they do at a very local community level.
• 11:42
  Speaker 0: Yes I think like you are saying A lot of these community champions the brilliant ones have been doing this verbally before technology.
• 11:50
  Speaker 0: They'll be working in communities, solving problems and issues.
• 11:55
  Speaker 0: And we've just tried to add a layer which makes their lives easier.
• 12:00
  Speaker 0: instead of doing one service can they do ten in the day with limited time?
• 12:05
  Speaker 0: Can they track these services or are there more accurate without technology?
• 12:09
  Speaker 0: Can you open up information so that they don't know only one service but have this technology?
• 12:16
  Speaker 0: So this is the most important layer.
• 12:19
  Speaker 0: The human layer, it's a layer that makes technology works and if that human layer isn't there then technology actually doesn't work efficiently for larger population.
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: I think we need to underline because i know very few technologists who would say even though its evidently true when you say it It's genius of what your doing with hard to shock.
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: Lets put some numbers on How big is that human network you're using?
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: And how broad we distribute it in what is the continental-sized country of India.
• 12:54
  Speaker 0: So, I mean entire networks are in millions... We have trained about sixty seven thousand such agents across thirty seven thousand villages and fifteen cities During Covid when they started..we also felt a need from ground and government doubled down on support.
• 13:12
  Speaker 0: so were reaching out hundred thousand people a year.
• 13:16
  Speaker 0: Now with this network, we are reaching about two million families a year directly and indirectly.
• 13:20
  Speaker 0: that's impacting over ten million families within formation in government support.
• 13:25
  Speaker 0: but our direct reach is above two million of these networks for you which includes gig workers in urban India poor.
• 13:32
  Speaker 0: And then there is rural workers and finals.
• 13:35
  Speaker 0: There is small and micro businesses Which also get access to these benefits?
• 13:44
  Speaker 0: Again, in all that is happening around us the value of that grassroots non-profit who's been at it working.
• 13:50
  Speaker 0: It added for twenty years.
• 13:52
  Speaker 0: thirty years so important because if they are trained well on technology just like these agents They're able to amplify The impact because there have such huge levels of trust and the community.
• 14:02
  Speaker 0: So we also had this network off.
• 14:05
  Speaker 0: Non-profits said be give this technology for them too use In their communities.
• 14:11
  Speaker 0: What do war lessons from Gaza, rethinking education, peace in Ukraine and visionary leadership have in common?
• 14:19
  Speaker 0: They are all themes from recent episodes of this podcast.
• 14:23
  Speaker 0: Check out more episodes on tellbergfoundation.org or a platform over your choice.
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: but also financial success.
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: Let's separate those two and talk about them, because I'm very curious how you balance the two?
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: Public good seems pretty evident given that description you just gave us of a massive amount of deployment on your platform of Hagger Shock.
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: What about financial success You charge for services.
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: This is not traditional Not-for-profit in West which doesn't charge.
• 15:09
  Speaker 0: So two instances in the early period of my, when I was starting that led me to the for-profit model one.
• 15:16
  Speaker 0: When i went about raising money to build a tech platform For social good twelve years back nobody gave me any money.
• 15:22
  Speaker 0: so... I think only people who give me money were... That
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: capper was like that!
• 15:27
  Speaker 0: They just didn't want.
• 15:28
  Speaker 0: somehow everybody was discouraging me To build technology In the larger non-profit space and this is ten years back.
• 15:35
  Speaker 0: things have changed dramatically since then But I think that was one.
• 15:41
  Speaker 0: So just the initial capital because you're able to get grants from universities in India for research and technology, so it's really helpful.
• 15:49
  Speaker 0: The second in my initial surveys with even citizens and communities Communities want quality service.
• 15:56
  Speaker 0: Just they don't want poor solutions.
• 16:02
  Speaker 0: They are happy when there is trust There is high-quality dignified solution.
• 16:06
  Speaker 0: So they are happy to pay for a decent solution.
• 16:10
  Speaker 0: Our model is the mix of this end-citizen paying small fee, but the larger fee where we actually are sustainable very practically it's BtoB model What we identified through labour laws in India and through ESG practices.
• 16:26
  Speaker 0: The payment was done by an employer.
• 16:29
  Speaker 0: For example Tata Group company that we work with pays for its steel worker or factory worker coal miner farmers that they buy from, the supply chain.
• 16:38
  Speaker 0: Uber pays in India for its Uber driver.
• 16:41
  Speaker 0: So companies and organizations and governments are paying access to Social Security For their direct employees, supply chains Farmers that they bought from MSMEs.
• 16:54
  Speaker 0: And then there is a small fee being paid by end-user as well.
• 16:58
  Speaker 0: Because first level of service is usually free because it's trust building.
• 17:04
  Speaker 0: We have come here, we're giving you the service and that's usually sponsored or paid by a partner.
• 17:10
  Speaker 0: Then subsequent services then the citizens.
• 17:12
  Speaker 0: once they see this is quantity service start.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: I was trained as an economist And i've always believed if charge zero for something people value it at zero.
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: So its equivalent of what your saying.
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: People want to pay quality.
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: They don't have lot to pay.
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: but thats not point.
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: The point isn't amount being paid.
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: point is paying for quality service, as opposed to something quite different.
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: How though do you balance?
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: You face an almost infinite demand for your services.
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: It will never go away.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: it only get larger at least as long As the population of India continues to grow particularly Your target market which is most of india.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: how Do you balance that desire laudable desire to do good with the necessity of a financial profit model.
• 18:10
  Speaker 0: We've been very, very focused on the problem.
• 18:12
  Speaker 0: I think it helps if you have problems obsessed solution agnostic.
• 18:15
  Speaker 0: so we are focused on that problem which is social security.
• 18:19
  Speaker 0: safety nets for all.
• 18:21
  Speaker 0: solutions have started from technology.
• 18:23
  Speaker 0: only two fieldwork training as a model.
• 18:26
  Speaker 0: now AI has a solution multiple others and thats going happen.
• 18:32
  Speaker 0: What has been very tempting is somebody tells us, why don't you do financial services?
• 18:36
  Speaker 0: Why don't we do skilling.
• 18:37
  Speaker 0: Why won't also distribute food during COVID?
• 18:40
  Speaker 0: and the harder thing that's been to say no And I think thats where i see one huge value in collaboration.
• 18:48
  Speaker 0: Why should I something with someone else doing?
• 18:50
  Speaker 0: well So if someone comes to me and says, why dont work on health?
• 18:53
  Speaker 0: You have all these workers can they also help checkups But there a fantastic organization which works for them.
• 18:59
  Speaker 0: You know, technologies can integrate and we cannot amplify impact.
• 19:05
  Speaker 0: And I think it's been hard that collaboration push but its happening because people are realizing capital is limited .And i think if you really want to make deep impact, collaboration is a key ,and I think thats where we've being able to maintain that.. It has be very clear.
• 19:24
  Speaker 0: when I started...I wanted sustainable impactful institution that I've built, not an organization which runs into valuation or huge revenue.
• 19:35
  Speaker 0: I want revenue and sustainability.
• 19:37
  Speaker 0: but i am thinking in decades.
• 19:39
  Speaker 0: this is the first decade of Adharshan!
• 19:41
  Speaker 0: And think about next decade...and third where we build institutions.
• 19:44
  Speaker 0: so..that really helps us even my team because they are the ones who were nearly doing their work The work we do in a year, let's say working with those two million families.
• 19:56
  Speaker 0: How is it impacting policy as well?
• 19:58
  Speaker 0: how Is it impacting the behavior I was at impacting technology?
• 20:02
  Speaker 0: How is that impacting services at scale?
• 20:04
  Speaker 0: and i think back for us is eventually going to help us finally At some point hopefully in our lifetime be able To close solving this problem.
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: Two threads you just touched on.
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: one is impact And impact and success are different.
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: They can overlap, how do you measure success?
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: So impact in success.
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: after caveat I started to interrupt In a country where the numbers are enormous by definition.
• 20:34
  Speaker 0: Yeah, I mean i think absolutely like when we think of two million ten million if you're in Europe You'll think wow in India that's one third of Delhi.
• 20:42
  Speaker 0: it's some population.
• 20:44
  Speaker 0: I Think numbers can be very subject.
• 20:47
  Speaker 0: So I think impact for us, one is a very measurable which has been just for our stakeholders.
• 20:52
  Speaker 0: For communities or governments it's how many actual benefits have be delivered in dollar value and rupee value?
• 20:59
  Speaker 0: And How Many People We Are Reaching.
• 21:00
  Speaker 0: That Is The Very Direct Technology Driven Impact Matrix.
• 21:04
  Speaker 0: We Have A Dashboard.
• 21:05
  Speaker 0: You Can See Real Time Transparency One Art That We Really Look At.
• 21:09
  Speaker 0: Success For Us Is Our Women Had Darshat Winning Local Elections.
• 21:15
  Speaker 0: Success for us is us contributing something in changing the labour law or gig workers, where today social security's a constitutional right.
• 21:22
  Speaker 0: A small part that we also played in our data among many hundreds of organizations and people who actually did some great work on it.
• 21:31
  Speaker 0: So I think success are these points which are smaller in scale but huge in generational change.
• 21:39
  Speaker 0: One woman didn't have agency to get out her house.
• 21:42
  Speaker 0: through.
• 21:42
  Speaker 0: our work has gone ahead and won a local election.
• 21:45
  Speaker 0: That generational impact is not, I feel like those successes And how do we capture them?
• 21:51
  Speaker 0: or the policy changes?
• 21:52
  Speaker 0: Otherwise i think The regular ones are the metrics that you all have to follow To be on sustainable side of numbers and impact value in people reached.
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: Anaket let me ask more-or less same question from different perspective.
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: At the end of a year,
• 22:39
  Speaker 0: The thing that comes to me when I reflect on is our agendas and field teams.
• 22:45
  Speaker 0: How have they done?
• 22:47
  Speaker 0: how has been their productivity for them?
• 22:50
  Speaker 0: financial resilience, actually income earned because everything comes down too...how's the field doing right..How are people in this field do it?
• 22:58
  Speaker 0: Are They happy?
• 23:00
  Speaker 0: Are they financially resilient?
• 23:03
  Speaker 0: Actually in a place where we want more work Because We can make the best technology We can have a great year in terms of some great grants or work that we are doing with the government.
• 23:13
  Speaker 0: But if that important layer, which is the field teams our agents are five hundred people on the ground who do this day-in and day out when there's heat they're at it.
• 23:26
  Speaker 0: The question I asked was why?
• 23:29
  Speaker 0: And am i enabling them to do so?
• 23:35
  Speaker 0: The next year if we are actually on track mission review, If you're still doing the same thing because I think numbers can go up and down.
• 23:42
  Speaker 0: So there has been a year where we have doubled our impact And i've been exhausted.
• 23:47
  Speaker 0: Have it really like what?
• 23:49
  Speaker 0: Like I have questions.
• 23:50
  Speaker 0: in my mind There's been A year Where they had not done so much Impact.
• 23:53
  Speaker 0: but the teams that come back and said We really enjoyed this The kind of work we did the communities You were able to reach the access we were able To do really the pulse of the field team because they are the ones who know what's happening on the ground.
• 24:08
  Speaker 0: We're just a privileged mouthpieces, we were able to share stories.
• 24:11
  Speaker 0: The reality is it's that person in-grounds whose real enabler.
• 24:15
  Speaker 0: So for me thats success like an NPS or net score where my team is and because India has such diversity across the country.
• 24:28
  Speaker 0: so I think that gives me a sense of success.
• 24:32
  Speaker 0: or we need to work more on where we are.
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: Let me ask a last question, We've touched upon it several times.
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: the nature of India its size and inequality...we know that there will always be truly massive number people in need.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: Another way to say it is the community that your organization Is serving as I said, is getting bigger not smaller by definition.
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: So you're not going to eradicate poverty in India.
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: That would be even suede.
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: Even conceptualize that.
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: Nonetheless at given all of the work You've done and all the work you intend to do over the next decade Does that almost intractable problem?
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: Discourage you?
• 25:22
  Speaker 0: yeah i think It does.
• 25:24
  Speaker 0: I mean with what is happening around us, if i talk about India we are facing the brunt of wars which didn't start.
• 25:34
  Speaker 0: We're facing a lot climate actions that aren't necessarily our doing.
• 25:38
  Speaker 0: and when they say us...I'm not even saying somebody sitting in Delhi talking to people who don't have access today or anything.
• 25:47
  Speaker 0: so I think inequality actually is more troubling than the enormity that really pushes me on because I feel, we all are probably not doing enough for them to at least get a charts.
• 26:05
  Speaker 0: What with safety nets you're giving them?
• 26:06
  Speaker 0: is the chart they do in?
• 26:08
  Speaker 0: somebody falls ill and your house has some safety net.
• 26:11
  Speaker 0: if there's a charge or scholarship then it is a safety net when someone can get out of poverty.
• 26:16
  Speaker 0: so i think its really troubling with what we hear in India and I'm sure it's amplified in the US, AI for example.
• 26:28
  Speaker 0: There are people all over who are clueless and I think this safety net sense social security work will only increase with job displacements and job changes.
• 26:37
  Speaker 0: so that is at one time very frustrating but also there is a sense of inequality or injustice pushes me on.
• 26:50
  Speaker 0: the thing that there is home.
• 26:53
  Speaker 0: We at least need to do our
• 26:54
  Speaker 0: part.".
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: I said it was a last question, and I lied because you just said something I think terribly important—that technology which has all sorts of downsides and upsides... You've just defined the possibility that the kind of technology that you're trying to deploy has the potential not only impact individuals but also but also to help those individuals become more engaged citizens without which democracy does fail.
• 27:28
  Speaker 0: Yeah, absolutely and I think it does.
• 27:30
  Speaker 0: with information on the upside of all technology innovations this is probably first time that every citizen might theoretically have a chance to level playing field.
• 27:43
  Speaker 0: if things are done well you may have voice or access information from the majority of population, which never has a seat on the table.
• 27:53
  Speaker 0: And if you think again that rural farmer... From their perspective they have actually very little to lose.
• 27:59
  Speaker 0: They've everything to gain and I think thats why there are more optimistic about technology when we go talk with them.
• 28:05
  Speaker 0: it is some of us who become sometimes pessimistic because probably know too much.
• 28:09
  Speaker 0: We have so much to loose That farmer not much to lose.
• 28:12
  Speaker 0: So they want to embrace It!
• 28:14
  Speaker 0: They want try and kind..and they're hooping.
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: Let's leave it there because getting the best out of new technology is one thing we all need to lean into, rather than what many are using that technology.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: So thank you very much Aniket for both this conversation and your work at Hector Shock.
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: I think its terribly important in India as well maybe beyond.
• 28:45
  Speaker 0: Thank You so much Ani.
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to this episode of New Thinking For A New World.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: I'm Alan Stoga, podcast host and i look forward your joining our next conversation.
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: remember tell us what do think at telbergfoundation dot.
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: org.