Latest / What is Business Development? / Episode 136: "The Frame" with Jonny Staker

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Episode 136: "The Frame" with Jonny Staker · What is Business Development?

0:03
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Business Development Podcast, brought to you by
0:06
Speaker 1: the Global Business Development Association, delivering the strategies and tactics
0:11
Speaker 1: to boost your career and corporate growth.
0:21
Speaker 2: Hello BD pros, and welcome to the Global Business Development
0:25
Speaker 2: Association podcast called What is the Business Development Now?
0:31
Speaker 3: Folks?
0:32
Speaker 2: Have you ever noticed how some people they effortlessly command
0:37
Speaker 2: a room, You know, they just walk in, they close
0:40
Speaker 2: deals with ease and have others leaning in when they speak,
0:43
Speaker 2: while others struggle to get taken Seriously, that's not luck.
0:48
Speaker 2: It's the Frame. And if that sounds familiar. Today we
0:52
Speaker 2: have a guest co author. We previously discussed this book
0:57
Speaker 2: with Justin Mike. This was several episodes back, and now
1:02
Speaker 2: we have Johnny Steaker joining us on the show. And
1:06
Speaker 2: the book, again, folks, is called The Frame and Johnny
1:09
Speaker 2: is the co author. Now, let me tell you a
1:12
Speaker 2: little bit about another book that I always like to
1:16
Speaker 2: talk about, and that's the Business Development Body of Knowledge.
1:20
Speaker 2: This is the universal guide book that the Global Business
1:24
Speaker 2: Development Association created for all business developers to speak the
1:28
Speaker 2: same language, operate in the same direction. And you can
1:31
Speaker 2: get that on Amazon and once you read the book,
1:35
Speaker 2: you can then take your Business Development Professional certification. Just
1:41
Speaker 2: go to the Global Business Development Association website at GBD
1:45
Speaker 2: Association dot org to get your certification. Now let's jump
1:51
Speaker 2: into a quick overview of the Frame. And if you
1:55
Speaker 2: listen to the great episode that we had with Justin Michael,
1:58
Speaker 2: you're going to really love to talking to Johnny Steaker today. Now,
2:03
Speaker 2: Johnny founded, scaled, and sold several companies across multiple sectors.
2:09
Speaker 2: He spent two decades operating at senior levels overseeing four
2:14
Speaker 2: hundred and thirty five million dollar p and ls, leading
2:16
Speaker 2: global M and A and then advising founders, pe boards
2:20
Speaker 2: and executives. And he created and is the president of Vanquished,
2:26
Speaker 2: the leading authority on building, scaling, and selling firms built
2:31
Speaker 2: on expertise, and those firms that he helps are typically consultancies,
2:37
Speaker 2: specialist agencies, professional B to B service companies, and independent experts.
2:42
Speaker 2: He also created the Vanquish method, a single integrated model
2:47
Speaker 2: for expertise led firms to attract better clients and charge
2:51
Speaker 2: with their worth and sell without chasing. Now let's chase
2:55
Speaker 2: our way right into this book discussion. And again it's
2:58
Speaker 2: called the Frame. It's by just Michael and Johnny Steaker,
3:02
Speaker 2: and in the Frame, you'll discover the hidden psychology that
3:05
Speaker 2: drives human behavior and business leadership and everyday influence. These
3:11
Speaker 2: are the unspoken laws, and those laws of you know,
3:17
Speaker 2: they quietly decide who's followed, who's respected, and who gets
3:22
Speaker 2: results long before anyone says a word. So let's cap
3:27
Speaker 2: a word here with Johnny Steaker, our guest today. Johnny,
3:30
Speaker 2: welcome to the show.
3:32
Speaker 3: It's Tony. Thanks for having me.
3:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, Johnny. Always great to talk to somebody that knows Justin.
3:37
Speaker 2: Michael has worked with him. He's a legend in the
3:40
Speaker 2: business development community, and it's great to have another high
3:45
Speaker 2: caliber guest author on our show today. And we would
3:50
Speaker 2: love to hear your take on The Frame. I know
3:53
Speaker 2: Justin captivated all of us with his understanding and his
3:57
Speaker 2: perspectives that he shared in The Frame. Very personal perspective too,
4:00
Speaker 2: and that really resonated, I think with a lot of
4:02
Speaker 2: folks in our audience. But can you share a little
4:04
Speaker 2: bit about your personal story, how did you get into
4:06
Speaker 2: the business development profession and why did you write the book?
4:11
Speaker 4: So yeah, first of all, you know, thanks for having me,
4:14
Speaker 4: and thanks for the intro.
4:15
Speaker 3: We've got to live up to it.
4:19
Speaker 4: So yeah, look, I mean, do I even consider myself
4:23
Speaker 4: in the b D profession? Do I consider all of
4:26
Speaker 4: us to be in the BD profession? That's the question
4:28
Speaker 4: I suppose for me, maybe different to a bunch of
4:32
Speaker 4: your guests.
4:33
Speaker 3: I wasn't kind of up, come up through the.
4:37
Speaker 4: Sassin tech world, so I wasn't a traditional seller.
4:41
Speaker 3: That wasn't my route at all.
4:42
Speaker 2: You know.
4:42
Speaker 4: I left school fairly young, without many qualifications. Was supposed
4:49
Speaker 4: to be a professional golfer, got pretty good, but that
4:51
Speaker 4: didn't work out, so I had to think of something
4:56
Speaker 4: to do. So, I mean I went blindfold straight in
5:00
Speaker 4: to kind of entrepreneurialism.
5:02
Speaker 3: So, you know, just.
5:05
Speaker 4: Naive in away started a business selling physical products. So
5:11
Speaker 4: you know, I drove the van, answered the phone, did
5:13
Speaker 4: the sales, you know everything, and we grew that basically
5:19
Speaker 4: out of a six to six storeroom. Second unit was
5:24
Speaker 4: literally a pig shed that just stunk, you know, and
5:27
Speaker 4: we had to put incense on there whilst we were
5:29
Speaker 4: packing orders and.
5:30
Speaker 3: Things like that.
5:32
Speaker 4: And so for me, we you know, I accidentally fell
5:37
Speaker 4: into sales. It was just I had to do that,
5:39
Speaker 4: had to figure out how to do that, and I
5:42
Speaker 4: got very good approaching major companies and looking big, looking
5:48
Speaker 4: bigger than we were. So I would go and sell
5:51
Speaker 4: products to people like you know, home Depot, Walmarts, Targets
5:58
Speaker 4: and all the European equivalents, and we were literally operating
6:01
Speaker 4: out of a picture, but we looked big. So I
6:04
Speaker 4: just kind of had this natural drive to do it.
6:07
Speaker 4: So I learned sales that way, and ultimately we sold
6:12
Speaker 4: that company to a private equity firm in my twenties,
6:16
Speaker 4: So you know, that was me cut my teeth and
6:19
Speaker 4: so really I realized early on that everything is sales. Ultimately,
6:23
Speaker 4: everything is a sales you know organization. It's just structured differently.
6:30
Speaker 4: Where they were selling tech, physical products, professional services, it's
6:35
Speaker 4: like how do you sell it? So you know, I
6:36
Speaker 4: built that into a sales machine and we were just
6:38
Speaker 4: moving boxes around the world eventually, So that was my.
6:43
Speaker 3: Foray into sales.
6:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's great, Hey, Johnny. I know a lot of
6:48
Speaker 2: business developers who are professional golfers. No, they're just not
6:52
Speaker 2: on any tour, right, they're just always out on the
6:54
Speaker 2: golf course with their clients and their prospects. So they're
6:57
Speaker 2: professionals in their golfers. That doesn't necessarily mean they're professional
7:02
Speaker 2: golfers you see on TV. So, but I also like
7:06
Speaker 2: the fact that it seems like you really brought what
7:10
Speaker 2: you learned, perhaps in golf to kind of establishing that
7:14
Speaker 2: frame to exceed expectations, kind of establish your presence, whether
7:22
Speaker 2: it was on the course or whether it was in
7:25
Speaker 2: a pig shed, and establishing a frame that was much
7:30
Speaker 2: larger than what was perhaps perceived if anybody knew it
7:35
Speaker 2: was a pig shed. You kind of went into the
7:38
Speaker 2: marketplace and with confidence, and it sounds like with a
7:43
Speaker 2: frame that no matter what large company you walked into,
7:49
Speaker 2: you commanded that respect. You walked into that room, you
7:51
Speaker 2: commanded the respect. You went from the pig shed into
7:54
Speaker 2: the boardroom, and you commanded that respect, perhaps with a
7:57
Speaker 2: little bit of incense smelling on your clothes to shield
7:59
Speaker 2: them the big guy smell behind you. So tell us
8:05
Speaker 2: a little bit about the frame. You know, we heard
8:07
Speaker 2: from Justin, but I'd love to get your perspective on
8:10
Speaker 2: your top three takeaways from the book that you can
8:12
Speaker 2: share with everybody. What would be number one that you
8:14
Speaker 2: would like to share?
8:16
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, first off, you know, you said why
8:21
Speaker 4: did we write the book? And you know Justin spoke
8:24
Speaker 4: to that. But what made it magic, I think is
8:26
Speaker 4: that Justin came from this, came up through this traditional
8:31
Speaker 4: tech sas selling world. Mine was the opposite. So we
8:35
Speaker 4: became friends first and exchanged all these battle stories. And
8:39
Speaker 4: I'm this guy that came from you know, starting his
8:42
Speaker 4: own business driving vans, you know, selling businesses, end up
8:45
Speaker 4: in the boardroom, end up involved in M and A
8:48
Speaker 4: and all this kind of stuff. So two totally different
8:50
Speaker 4: worlds but totally collided, you know. We talk about that
8:54
Speaker 4: a lot, and we saw the crossover and how he'd
8:58
Speaker 4: seen stuff in sales that I'd seen similarities to in
9:02
Speaker 4: the boardroom and in deals that we don't and situations
9:06
Speaker 4: that I found myself in, and it was like, you
9:08
Speaker 4: know what this is. There's something here, There's there's something
9:11
Speaker 4: that people are missing, and I think we've just hit
9:14
Speaker 4: on it. And so I think everybody talks tactics, and
9:18
Speaker 4: tactics are great, they're essential, But as you said at
9:23
Speaker 4: the beginning, you know, why do some people succeed where
9:27
Speaker 4: others fail? Why do some people command attention in a room?
9:31
Speaker 4: Why do some people seem more authoritative than other people?
9:36
Speaker 4: And it's this, it's the missing part. So the tactics
9:40
Speaker 4: are no good unless you understand what's going on underneath,
9:43
Speaker 4: and so we kind of we borrowed the term the frame.
9:49
Speaker 4: You know, it's been used in articles since the seventies
9:52
Speaker 4: and studies that have been done, and so ultimately it's like,
9:56
Speaker 4: what's really going on? So to give you an example,
10:01
Speaker 4: law one. There's ten laws in the book, broken down
10:06
Speaker 4: and dressed up in a bit of a different way.
10:08
Speaker 4: As you know, Tony, it's written in a very cinematic
10:12
Speaker 4: way so that it captures interest and it's not boring.
10:16
Speaker 4: But the law of non neediness I find to be
10:19
Speaker 4: really important and really useful to clients. So you know,
10:23
Speaker 4: anytime we want the sale, it's human nature and certainly
10:29
Speaker 4: in sales, to give off all of these signals that
10:32
Speaker 4: we want the sale and we really need the sale.
10:34
Speaker 4: So you know, the way we follow up sounds needy,
10:38
Speaker 4: whether it's cold follow up or follow up to proposals.
10:44
Speaker 4: The way we run sales calls is needy. And we
10:48
Speaker 4: don't know this is going on because we're following traditional
10:51
Speaker 4: selling techniques, you know, the medics and the bands and
10:55
Speaker 4: the sandlers. But it can be felt, you know, you
10:59
Speaker 4: can feel when somebody wants to say, and it's actually repelling.
11:04
Speaker 4: And you know, Justin and I found that in our
11:07
Speaker 4: converging world that it's the same. You know, when you
11:11
Speaker 4: want to sell a business and you're negotiating a sale
11:13
Speaker 4: of a business, if you look like you need it
11:17
Speaker 4: more than the other party, you know, it's highly likely
11:21
Speaker 4: that that you're going to repel. And clients always say
11:24
Speaker 4: to me, yeah, but it's easy to say that when
11:27
Speaker 4: you're not you know, when you're not financially stable and
11:32
Speaker 4: you really do need the sale, So what about what
11:34
Speaker 4: do you do? Then it's like, well, you've got to
11:37
Speaker 4: start behaving like that first.
11:38
Speaker 3: Because.
11:41
Speaker 4: Ultimately, the you know, the prospect doesn't know or care
11:46
Speaker 4: your financial situation. The rules are the rules, so you know,
11:50
Speaker 4: it can be felt either way. So you've got to
11:52
Speaker 4: start behaving detached, non needy. I can really let this
11:57
Speaker 4: deal go or take it. And I found that to
11:59
Speaker 4: be one of the most powerful things.
12:02
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, this is such a powerful but almost
12:06
Speaker 2: a counterintuitive you know, cognitively, it doesn't necessarily make sense,
12:11
Speaker 2: and it certainly goes against what a lot of things
12:14
Speaker 2: are indoctrinated into typical sales tactics and operations. And things
12:19
Speaker 2: like that. I would argue that as business developers, we
12:22
Speaker 2: have an abundance mindset, and that's what sets us apart
12:25
Speaker 2: from salespeople. Sales is transactional. There's nothing wrong with it.
12:31
Speaker 2: There's certainly nothing wrong with what sales tactics are use
12:35
Speaker 2: or even a sales mindset is an efficiency orientation of
12:40
Speaker 2: They are directed to close the deal as quickly and
12:45
Speaker 2: effectively and efficiently as possible. That is their mission. So
12:49
Speaker 2: it is a little bit of a scarcity mindset if
12:51
Speaker 2: you approach engagements from a sales perspective, but when you
12:55
Speaker 2: approach from a business development perspective, it's about abundance. It's okay, well,
13:01
Speaker 2: this one prospect doesn't necessarily need me, now, fine, there
13:05
Speaker 2: are plenty others out there in the ocean that need
13:08
Speaker 2: my help to go out there and save them. And
13:11
Speaker 2: every minute I spend with this one prospect that has
13:14
Speaker 2: no interest right now, I'm taking time away for somebody
13:19
Speaker 2: that really really needs my capabilities. And I think that
13:23
Speaker 2: is kind of a fundamental mind shift, and that's sometimes
13:27
Speaker 2: why some people who start in sales struggle in business development,
13:30
Speaker 2: because they are all about, you know, abc always be closing,
13:35
Speaker 2: and in business development. I always say it's always begiving,
13:39
Speaker 2: and so that is, you know, when you have a
13:43
Speaker 2: client who is still just kind of stuck no matter what,
13:47
Speaker 2: they just keep giving off that desperate neediness. Are there
13:51
Speaker 2: any kind of drills or anything you kind of you know,
13:53
Speaker 2: something that you kind of help them break that habit with.
13:56
Speaker 2: Is it a mind shift or you know, something that
13:58
Speaker 2: they can kind of all themselves before they get on
14:01
Speaker 2: the phone with the prospect or go into that boardroom.
14:04
Speaker 2: Is there anything kind of that you can coach them
14:09
Speaker 2: through on trying to break that.
14:12
Speaker 3: Yeah.
14:13
Speaker 4: Absolutely, And I think you kind of just touched on it,
14:16
Speaker 4: you know, And it's the it's this idea that you know,
14:18
Speaker 4: there's only one Tony or there's only one Johnny, but
14:21
Speaker 4: there's forty million SMBs out there that need my help.
14:25
Speaker 4: So I think realizing that there's only one of you.
14:29
Speaker 4: And I had this conversation with a client yesterday and
14:32
Speaker 4: they were dressing up all their messaging and every every
14:38
Speaker 4: time that they go over their messaging and build their
14:40
Speaker 4: messaging out, it's very apologetic and very I say, vendor esque.
14:47
Speaker 4: You know, it's very walking on eggshells, you know, niceties
14:51
Speaker 4: and false niceties and rapport and all these things. And
14:56
Speaker 4: you know, so what i'd say to a client is
14:59
Speaker 4: like I said to him, I say, look at all
15:00
Speaker 4: the things you've done. You've you've had three exits, You've
15:05
Speaker 4: you know, you've helped some of the biggest companies in
15:07
Speaker 4: the world. I won't name them because he'll know exactly
15:09
Speaker 4: who I'm talking about. You know, you've been doing this
15:13
Speaker 4: twenty five years. The results you get for your clients
15:15
Speaker 4: is phenomenal. You're the price here, man, you know, so
15:19
Speaker 4: you need to start going in there like I'm the prize.
15:22
Speaker 4: If you want what we're what we're putting down, it's
15:25
Speaker 4: there to pick up. If you don't, I can move on.
15:28
Speaker 4: And so when I do that, you know, typically like
15:31
Speaker 4: he did, is like, oh my god, you're right. I'm
15:33
Speaker 4: approaching this like I really need this, and they're doing
15:37
Speaker 4: me a favor. They're not, you know, where as somebody
15:40
Speaker 4: said to me, when you when you sell or or
15:43
Speaker 4: even in business development, you know, you don't sell two people,
15:47
Speaker 4: you sell for them, right, So we want to help them.
15:50
Speaker 3: So that's the typical hard approach.
15:52
Speaker 2: It really powerful what you just shared there, Johnny, because
15:55
Speaker 2: you're really transcending the corporate brand, and you're really advocating
15:58
Speaker 2: for the individual themselves. You are what people are buying
16:02
Speaker 2: and those relationships. That mindset will take you way beyond
16:06
Speaker 2: whatever a corporate brand you're currently representing, and that all
16:10
Speaker 2: compound over time. As you build trust in the community,
16:13
Speaker 2: as you build value in the community, people will recognize
16:16
Speaker 2: that and don't hide it, you know, put yourself in
16:19
Speaker 2: the frame and understand your self worth. And that's wow,
16:24
Speaker 2: really powerful, Johnny, thank you for that. Let's move on
16:27
Speaker 2: to take away number two that you would like to share.
16:30
Speaker 4: Yeah, I guess the next one leads in and I
16:32
Speaker 4: think it's more as much BD related as it is
16:35
Speaker 4: in sales. But you know the law of qualifications, that's
16:40
Speaker 4: law number six in the book, and you could almost
16:43
Speaker 4: say that it's the law of disqualification, but it's a
16:48
Speaker 4: similar thing. So I guess in business development and all sales,
16:54
Speaker 4: people typically approach everything with this mindset of you know,
16:59
Speaker 4: I just want to sell, no matter what I want
17:01
Speaker 4: to convert, I want to get the meeting.
17:03
Speaker 3: I want to sell, and.
17:06
Speaker 4: They're not actually looking for the signs that a the
17:09
Speaker 4: prospect doesn't want to buy or be it's just not
17:12
Speaker 4: a good fit, and so you end up, as you've
17:16
Speaker 4: just said, not long ago, spending all of this time
17:18
Speaker 4: with the wrong fit people who were never going to
17:20
Speaker 4: buy from you.
17:22
Speaker 3: So in terms of you.
17:24
Speaker 4: Know, the law of qualification, it's like it's approaching everything
17:29
Speaker 4: as is this person even a fit. It's asking questions
17:34
Speaker 4: that would have people disqualify. I do that a lot,
17:37
Speaker 4: you know, so you know I would be looking for
17:40
Speaker 4: reasons not to work with somebody rather than looking for
17:44
Speaker 4: any reason to sell to them or to qualify them.
17:47
Speaker 4: So I've found that to be extremely powerful because again,
17:52
Speaker 4: it automatically kind of generates that non neediness in itself,
17:56
Speaker 4: because you know, you can feel when somebody's kind of
17:59
Speaker 4: saying saying look, I'll even say, you know, if somebody
18:02
Speaker 4: will say, look are you you know? Where's the pitch?
18:06
Speaker 4: Or get to the pitch, or I'll say, look, there
18:09
Speaker 4: is no pitch.
18:10
Speaker 3: I don't even know if we're a good fit.
18:12
Speaker 4: I don't know if I can work with you yet,
18:14
Speaker 4: And it disarms a situation. So it's good for both parties.
18:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, and from a heuristic standpoint, there's actually psychology associate
18:24
Speaker 2: with that. It's it's a sales tactic. It's not I
18:29
Speaker 2: don't think an ethical sales tactic. But it's the takeaway.
18:33
Speaker 2: It's the takeaway. I'm sure you've heard of it before,
18:35
Speaker 2: Johnny as well. I think we in. What we're saying is,
18:39
Speaker 2: it's not you're not going in with the mindset of
18:41
Speaker 2: I'm just going to use this tactic as a manipulation.
18:44
Speaker 3: It is.
18:45
Speaker 2: What you're doing is you're establishing your value proposition by
18:51
Speaker 2: seeking ways of disqualifying them, which ultimately is good for
18:54
Speaker 2: the relationship over wall right, because what you're trying to
18:57
Speaker 2: do is understand is this worth my time and effort?
19:02
Speaker 2: Because my time and my efforts are very valuable, and
19:06
Speaker 2: there are people out there that are drowning. I need
19:08
Speaker 2: to go save them. And I'm triaging you. Are you
19:12
Speaker 2: just did you just stub your toe on the beach? Uh?
19:16
Speaker 2: You know? Or cut your foot on a clamshell? Okay,
19:19
Speaker 2: you're fine. I need to go out there and you
19:21
Speaker 2: know where it's twenty feet deep and somebody struggling. That's
19:25
Speaker 2: where I need to be. So you know, if you
19:27
Speaker 2: ever get out there, just let me know. Or if
19:30
Speaker 2: you are here on the beach and you see anybody
19:32
Speaker 2: out there that's a friend of yours let me know
19:34
Speaker 2: as well. And so I think this is really powerful
19:36
Speaker 2: and it's a very Again another difficult mind shift, especially
19:40
Speaker 2: if you've been in sales, because again, sales is you
19:44
Speaker 2: know you are trying to qualify, but you're not trying
19:46
Speaker 2: to disqualify. You're trying to qualify your way into an opportunity.
19:50
Speaker 2: This is a different mindset of Look my time, I
19:53
Speaker 2: have valuable resources here, I and I you know you're
19:56
Speaker 2: a nice person. I like that, and I think that
19:59
Speaker 2: really demonstrates to people are certain cachet associated with your brand. Again,
20:04
Speaker 2: you never want to approach this from a pulse standpoint
20:07
Speaker 2: or an arrogant standpoint. Right, I think you're going Your approach, Johnny,
20:11
Speaker 2: is actually humility. You're demonstrating humility in a lot of ways.
20:14
Speaker 2: I think because you're also respectful of them. If it's
20:18
Speaker 2: not a good fit, you don't want to waste their time, right.
20:22
Speaker 4: Yeah, Yeah, absolutely, As I said, I mean, it's good
20:26
Speaker 4: for both parties. It's and it's refreshing because you know,
20:31
Speaker 4: prospects are used to being tactically sold to and tactically developed,
20:38
Speaker 4: and you know they can feel all that stuff. So
20:40
Speaker 4: it's refreshing when somebody just doesn't do that, and it's
20:43
Speaker 4: just kind of unheard of in sales now.
20:45
Speaker 3: But you know, if it's making a comeback, well, I
20:52
Speaker 3: hope it is.
20:52
Speaker 2: I hope it is, and with people like you and
20:54
Speaker 2: Justin talking about it in your book, folks can really
20:57
Speaker 2: start to implement it. And again we're talking about the frame.
21:01
Speaker 2: It's the unspoken laws of power, status and influence. It's
21:05
Speaker 2: by Justin Michael and Johnny Steaker, and Johnny I like
21:08
Speaker 2: what you're doing here and walking through the podcast with us,
21:11
Speaker 2: because Justin, I think started with the number one and
21:14
Speaker 2: you moved right to number six. I think Justin kind
21:16
Speaker 2: of went sequentially and kind of covered all of them briefly.
21:20
Speaker 2: But I like how you're really cherry picking these key
21:24
Speaker 2: rules that you know or laws that you can you
21:27
Speaker 2: resonate with. And you know what I really liked about
21:30
Speaker 2: the writing style two things. It's it's that very captivating
21:34
Speaker 2: writing writing style that I think folks who have read
21:37
Speaker 2: Justin's book in the past, and I'm a big fan
21:40
Speaker 2: of they're actually interesting and exciting to read versus your
21:43
Speaker 2: typical boring sales or b D book. But you also,
21:48
Speaker 2: both of you were very vulnerable and talking about moments
21:52
Speaker 2: when you fell out of the frame, And I think
21:55
Speaker 2: that's very powerful too. It's that demonstrates again that humility
21:58
Speaker 2: of the frame isn't fake, the frame isn't arrogance, and
22:03
Speaker 2: that's a very subtle emphasis that the book makes. But
22:09
Speaker 2: also both of you just in sharing that vulnerability with
22:11
Speaker 2: the readers, I think was very powerful. What would you
22:15
Speaker 2: like to talk about in the third and final takeaway?
22:19
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I appreciate you saying that, by the way, Tony,
22:21
Speaker 4: because you know, that's something we spent a lot of
22:24
Speaker 4: time on that, you know, the part where we talk
22:27
Speaker 4: at the beginning about the frame being broken and both
22:30
Speaker 4: of us realizing that and for me it was literally
22:34
Speaker 4: in the South of France on the back of a yacht,
22:36
Speaker 4: which sounds crazy but it's true, and realizing that my
22:41
Speaker 4: business had collapsed, you know, so I went back home
22:43
Speaker 4: from the South of France to nothing, starting up and
22:46
Speaker 4: building building again with worn out tools. So to hold
22:50
Speaker 4: the frame when you know when you need to most.
22:53
Speaker 4: It's almost like when people talk about the law of
22:56
Speaker 4: attraction or positivity. You can do that stuff and everything's
23:00
Speaker 4: going your way. It's when things are not going your
23:03
Speaker 4: way that it's hardest so to be able to do that.
23:06
Speaker 4: And so yeah, I guess something that probably is relevant
23:10
Speaker 4: to to business development as well is a law in there.
23:15
Speaker 4: In fact, there's two laws, and I'll bring them both
23:17
Speaker 4: into one. There's the law of frame collision and the
23:21
Speaker 4: law of frame recovery so effectively, and you know, your
23:26
Speaker 4: audience will find this a lot where they will probably
23:30
Speaker 4: be speaking to people. They might be speaking to sweet
23:33
Speaker 4: C suite or you know, senior execs, and they will
23:38
Speaker 4: get a lot of strong arming in the sense that
23:44
Speaker 4: the other party will try to take the frame, whether
23:46
Speaker 4: they know they're doing it or not. They'll try to
23:48
Speaker 4: exert seniority. You've called them, you've called emailed them. You know,
23:55
Speaker 4: you might not be in a as senior a role
23:59
Speaker 4: as them, so they'll use that to kind of put
24:03
Speaker 4: you in your box. And you know, we see that
24:07
Speaker 4: a lot, and I see it a lot in sales,
24:09
Speaker 4: even what I do so to be able to recover,
24:14
Speaker 4: to be able to recognize what's happening and know how
24:18
Speaker 4: to deal with it, whether that is and sometimes you know,
24:21
Speaker 4: Justin and I talk about this a lot. Sometimes the
24:24
Speaker 4: right thing to do is let the other party think
24:26
Speaker 4: that they've got the frame. It's not always about winning
24:29
Speaker 4: it back and who's in charge. It's about I can
24:33
Speaker 4: be in charge by allowing this person to think they've
24:35
Speaker 4: got the frame because I can work from this position.
24:38
Speaker 4: I can work from this vantage point quite well. And
24:42
Speaker 4: the other one is knowing how to take it back.
24:45
Speaker 4: And sometimes that is in things like you know, those
24:50
Speaker 4: kind of rebuttals that we talked about earlier. So you know, look,
24:55
Speaker 4: I don't take cold pictures Tony. Well, it's a good
24:58
Speaker 4: job because I don't pitch. That's not what I do.
25:01
Speaker 4: But I think I've got something that might help you here,
25:03
Speaker 4: you know, and things like that. That's how you would
25:06
Speaker 4: take back the frame in the small moments, and then
25:09
Speaker 4: you would do it the way I did. There's a
25:11
Speaker 4: story in the book about when I was selling my
25:14
Speaker 4: first business and they flew in the president of the
25:19
Speaker 4: p firm came in to try to pull back cash
25:23
Speaker 4: from us. Basically in the completion accounts had the CFO
25:27
Speaker 4: with them. CFO pulled the laptop out and I just said,
25:31
Speaker 4: you can tell whatever his name is to put his
25:34
Speaker 4: laptop away. There'll be no you know, there'll be no concessions.
25:41
Speaker 4: And he was just shocked. No one had ever done
25:42
Speaker 4: that before. I didn't know how to react. And once
25:45
Speaker 4: you've got the frame, it's hard to lose it then.
25:47
Speaker 4: So in negotiations there after, even though he was this
25:49
Speaker 4: senior m and a guy and I'm just this young kid,
25:53
Speaker 4: he never won the frame back. Every conversation after kind
25:57
Speaker 4: of went my way because I'd done that. And so
26:00
Speaker 4: it's in the small details and knowing how to pick
26:02
Speaker 4: those out, and that's kind of more, you know, into
26:06
Speaker 4: frame recovery. So when you've lost it, you can feel damn,
26:10
Speaker 4: you know, I feel like I'm I'm a vendor here.
26:12
Speaker 4: I feel like there's nowhere to go. This guy is
26:15
Speaker 4: just rebutting everything I'm doing. It's how do I recover
26:20
Speaker 4: the frame?
26:21
Speaker 3: You know?
26:21
Speaker 4: Sometimes it's doing something unusual. People like Ora and claf
26:25
Speaker 4: talk about odd things like, you know, picking up an
26:28
Speaker 4: apple off the desk of the of the person who's
26:31
Speaker 4: presenting to and taking a bite out of it, or
26:34
Speaker 4: you know, strange things like you know, hey, Tony, what's
26:37
Speaker 4: the what's what's the background about? You know, so strange
26:40
Speaker 4: distractions and pattern interrupts and can all kind of lead
26:45
Speaker 4: to that frame recovery, you know, changing the subject, and
26:48
Speaker 4: so it doesn't always have to be a battle of will.
26:52
Speaker 4: It's these tiny, tiny things.
26:54
Speaker 3: In body language and speech that we've noticed, you know.
26:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I like that the book has these vignettes,
27:04
Speaker 2: these anecdotes that helped share the stories that both of
27:09
Speaker 2: you went through, these challenges, these really tough challenges like you.
27:13
Speaker 2: You know, it's easy for business developers. It's easy for
27:17
Speaker 2: entrepreneurs to have their identity all grounded in whatever brand
27:22
Speaker 2: they have. And I like the fact that you bring
27:26
Speaker 2: that kind of elite athlete resilience to the game. Okay,
27:32
Speaker 2: I lost that round of golf. There's another round after that.
27:36
Speaker 2: And then when you have that kind of resilient mindset,
27:42
Speaker 2: it then allows you to go into new opportunities of Okay,
27:45
Speaker 2: I learned lessons from the last round of golf. That
27:48
Speaker 2: doesn't dictate how I would do in the next round
27:50
Speaker 2: of golf. And I need to establish my value early
27:55
Speaker 2: and often. And again, this is not as something arrogant
28:01
Speaker 2: or a cheap tactic of I'm just going to bully
28:04
Speaker 2: my way into the next deal. That's not what either
28:08
Speaker 2: of you say. It's actually approaching it from a very
28:11
Speaker 2: humble perspective of look, you as the prospect or you
28:15
Speaker 2: as the other person on the other side of the table,
28:18
Speaker 2: have your agenda. We both need to establish that we
28:22
Speaker 2: have a common agenda here. If we don't, then let's
28:24
Speaker 2: break contact. There's no point in moving forward. But also
28:28
Speaker 2: there needs to be a reciprocity of value. I have value,
28:31
Speaker 2: you have value. And if this was going to be
28:33
Speaker 2: a one way transaction, then it's not worth pursuing. If
28:38
Speaker 2: you're not going to be empathetic and understanding my needs,
28:41
Speaker 2: then it's not worth it for me just to be
28:44
Speaker 2: and receive only. And so I think these are really
28:49
Speaker 2: powerful lessons that business developers when you put away all
28:55
Speaker 2: the tactics, just take a step back and look at
28:58
Speaker 2: the forest, not look at those trees, those tactical trees,
29:01
Speaker 2: and just kind of read a book like this that
29:04
Speaker 2: is exciting to read but also profound and something that's
29:09
Speaker 2: fundamental that can take your game to the next level.
29:12
Speaker 2: Is really powerful. So, Johnny, let me kind of summarize
29:16
Speaker 2: the three takeaways from your book. Again, folks, the book
29:20
Speaker 2: we talked about today is the frame unspoken laws of power,
29:25
Speaker 2: status and influence. So some of the key things that
29:29
Speaker 2: Johnny talked about today, and Johnny, feel free please jump
29:32
Speaker 2: in if I miss something here. But first and foremost
29:36
Speaker 2: is understanding that value proposition going into any deal and
29:43
Speaker 2: having kind of that abundance mindset as opposed to that
29:45
Speaker 2: neediness scarcity mindset that typically you find in sales business
29:50
Speaker 2: development is different than that. And then second is you
29:56
Speaker 2: know understanding that you have value and that there needs
30:02
Speaker 2: to be reciprocity in that value exchange. And when you engage,
30:07
Speaker 2: we are often trained historically to be in the qualifying mindset,
30:12
Speaker 2: and what you're advocating for is putting yourself in the
30:15
Speaker 2: disqualifying mindset. Let's make sure we find anything that's going
30:20
Speaker 2: to cause issues for this deal moving forward, and let's
30:24
Speaker 2: address those. And if we can't address them now, then
30:27
Speaker 2: we're not going to be able to address them later.
30:29
Speaker 2: So let's break contact and move on. And the final
30:31
Speaker 2: thing is being able to recognize that you're being challenged
30:35
Speaker 2: in the frame by the other party, and if you
30:38
Speaker 2: lose the frame, how to regain that frame and have
30:43
Speaker 2: a valuable, beneficial, mutually beneficial relationship moving forward in the deal. Johnny,
30:48
Speaker 2: is there anything that I missed?
30:51
Speaker 3: I think you nailed it from us.
30:53
Speaker 2: Well, thank you, Johnny, and thank you to Justin as well,
30:56
Speaker 2: both of you for writing such a fantastic book. And again, folks,
31:01
Speaker 2: it's the Frame Unspoken Laws of Power, Status and Influence.
31:04
Speaker 2: It's available on ours Amazon and it's written by Justin
31:09
Speaker 2: Michael and Johnny Steaker. Johnny Steaker, thank you so much
31:13
Speaker 2: for joining us on the show today.
31:15
Speaker 3: Thanks Tony, it's been a pleasure. Really appreciate it.
31:20
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