Latest / Rounding Up / Supporting Neurodiverse Students in Elementary Mathematics Classrooms with Dr. Cathery Yeh

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Supporting Neurodiverse Students in Elementary Mathematics Classrooms with Dr. Cathery Yeh · Rounding Up

• 0:03
  What meaning does the term neurodiverse convey and how might that language
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  impact a student's learning experience? In this episode,
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  we'll explore those questions and we'll think about ways that educators can
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  design learning environments that support all of their students.
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  Joining us for this conversation is Dr. Catherine Yay,
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  a professor in STEM education from the University of Texas at Austin.
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  Welcome to the podcast C. It's really exciting to have you with us today.
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  Thank you, Mike. Honored to be invited.
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  So I wonder if we can start by offering listeners a common understanding of
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  language that we'll use from time to time throughout the episode.
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  How do you think about the meaning of neurodiversity?
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  Thank you for this thoughtful question.
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  Language matters a lot for me.
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  Neurodiversity refers to the natural variation in our human brains and our
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  neurocognition challenging this idea that there's a normal brain.
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  I always think of in Texas, we just had a snow day two days ago,
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  and I think of just as, there's no two snowflakes that are the same.
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  There's no two brain. That's exactly the same too.
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  I also think of its meaning from a personal perspective.
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  I am not a special educator.
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  I was a bilingual teacher and taught in inclusive settings,
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  and my first exposure to the meaning of neurodiversity came from my own child
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  who she openly blogs about it.
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  As a Chinese-American girl,
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  it was actually really hard for her to be diagnosed. Asian Americans,
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  one out of 10 are diagnosed. That's why I'm lowest on any ethnic racial group,
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  and I'll often think about when she's proud of her disabled identity,
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  it is who she is.
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  But what she noticed that when she tells people about her disabled identity,
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  what do you think is the first thing people say when she says,
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  I'm neurodivergent. I have a DHD, I have autism.
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  What do you think folks usually say to her? The most common response.
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  I'm going to guess that they express some level of surprise and it might be
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  associated with her ethnic background or racial identity.
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  She doesn't get that as much.
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  The first thing people say is they apologize to her. They say,
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  I'm sorry.
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  Wow.
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  And that happens quite a lot. And I say that because,
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  and then it connected back to the Termin neurodiversity because I think it's
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  important to know its origins. It came about by Judy Singer,
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  she's a sociologist, and about 30 years ago,
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  she coined the term neurodiversity as an opposition to the medical model of
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  understanding people and human differences deficits.
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  And her understanding is that difference is beautiful.
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  All of us think and learn and process differently,
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  and that's part of human diversity.
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  So that original definition of neurodiversity was tied to the autism rights
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  movement. But now when we think about the term,
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  it's expanded to include folks with a DHD, dyslexia,
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  dyscalculia mental health conditions like depression, anxiety,
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  and other neuro minorities like Tourette syndrome and even memory loss.
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  I wanted to name out all these things because sometimes we're looking for a
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  really clean definition and definitions are messy.
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  There's a personal one.
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  There's a societal one of how we position neurodiversity as something that's
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  deficit that needs to be fixed, but it's part of who one is,
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  but it's also socially constructed because how do you decide when a difference
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  becomes a difference that counts where you qualify as being neurodiverse.
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  So I think there's a lot to consider around that.
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  The answer that you shared is really a good segue because the question I was
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  going to ask you involves something that I suspect you hear quite often is
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  people asking you,
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  what are the best ways that I can support my neurodiverse students?
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  And it occurs to me that part of the challenge of that question is it assumes
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  that there's this narrow range of things that you do for this
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  narrow range of students who are different.
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  The way that you just talked about the meaning of neurodiversity probably means
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  that you have a different kind of answer to that question when people ask it.
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  I do get this question quite a lot.
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  People email it to me or they'll ask me.
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  That's usually the first thing people ask.
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  I think my response kind of matches my pink hair question.
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  When they ask me the question, I often ask a question back and I go,
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  how would you best educate Chinese children in math? And they're like,
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  why would you ask that?
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  The underlining assumption is that all Chinese children are the
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  same and they learn the same ways,
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  they have the same needs and also that their needs are different than the
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  research base equity math practices. We know and have done 50,
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  60 years of research that we've highlighted our effective teaching practices for
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  all children. We've been part of NCTM for 20 years.
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  We know that tasks that promote reasoning and problem solving has been
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  effectively shown to be good for all. Using a connecting math representations
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  across math representations in a lesson is good for all multimodal math
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  discourse, not just verbal, written,
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  but embodied in part who we are and in building on student thinking and
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  all those things we know, and those are often the recommendations we should ask.
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  But I think an important question is how often are our questions
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  connecting to that? Instead, how often are we seeing that?
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  We assume that certain students cannot engage in these practices,
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  and I think that's something we should traumatize more.
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  I'm not saying that there are not specific struggles or difficulties that the
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  neurodiversity umbrella includes, which includes A DHD, dyslexia, autism,
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  bipolar disorder, on and on. So many things.
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  I'm not saying that they don't experience difficulties in our school
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  environment, but it's also understanding that if one neurodiverse student,
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  you know me or my child, you only know one. That's all.
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  And by assuming we're all the same,
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  it ignores the other social identities and live experiences that
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  students have that impact their learning. So I'm going to ask you a question.
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  Fire away.
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  Okay. What comes to your mind when you hear the term NEURODIVERSE student?
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  What does that student look like, sound like, appear like to you?
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  I think that's a really great question.
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  There's a version of me not long ago that would have thought of that student.
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  As someone who's been categorized as special education,
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  receiving special education services,
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  perhaps a student that has A-D-H-D-I might've used language like
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  students who have sensory needs or processing.
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  And I think as I hear myself say,
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  some of those things that I would've previously said,
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  what jumps out is two things.
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  One is I'm painting with a really broad brush as opposed to looking at
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  the individual student and the things that they need.
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  And two is the extent to which painting with a broad brush or trying to
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  find a bucket of strategies that's for a particular group of students,
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  that really limits my thinking around what they can do or all the
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  brilliance that they may have inside them.
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  Thank you for sharing that because that's a reflection I often do.
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  I think about when I learned about my child, I learned about myself,
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  how I automatically went to a deficit lens of like, oh, no,
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  how are we going to function in the world?
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  How's she going to function in the world?
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  But I also do this prompt quite a lot with teachers and others,
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  and I ask 'em to draw it. When you draw someone, what do you see?
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  And I'll be honest, kind of like drawing a scientist.
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  We often draw Albert Einstein.
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  When I ask folks to draw what a neurodiverse student looks like,
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  they're predominantly white boys, to be honest with you,
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  and I want to name that out, is because students of color,
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  especially black brown native students,
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  they're disproportionately over and under-identified as disabled in our
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  schooling.
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  Like we think about this idea that when most of us associate autism or A
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  DHD mainly as part of the neurodiversity branch and as entirely
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  within as white boys,
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  which often happens with many of the teachers that I talk to and parents,
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  we see them as needing services. But in contrast,
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  when we think about particularly our students of color and our boys,
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  these young men,
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  there's often a contrast of criminalization in being deprived of
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  services for them. And this is not even what I'm saying.
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  It's been 50 years of documented research from the depart Ed from annual civil
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  rights that repeatedly shows for 50 years now extreme disproportionality
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  for disabled black and Latinx boys,
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  in particular from suspension expulsion and in school arrests.
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  I think one of the most surprising statistics for me that I had learned recently
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  was African-American youth are five times more likely to be
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  misdiagnosed with chronic disorder before receiving the proper diagnosis of
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  autism spectrum disorder.
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  And I appreciate going back to that termin neural neurodiversity because I think
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  it's really important for us to realize that neurodiversity is an asset-based
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  perspective that makes us shift from looking as the student that needs to be
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  fixed, that neurodiversity is the norm,
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  but for us to look at the environment. And I really believe that we cannot have
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  conversations about disability without fully having conversations about race
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  language and the need to question what needs to be fixed,
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  particularly not just our teaching, but our assessment practices. For example,
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  we talk about neurodiversity around what we consider normal or abnormal,
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  which is based on how we make expectations around what society thinks.
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  One, the things that showed up in our own household when we think about
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  neurodiversity or assessments for autism is this idea of maintaining eye
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  contact.
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  That's one of the wily considered autistic traits in the Chinese and an
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  Asian household and also in African communities making eye contact to an
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  adult or somebody with authority. It is considered rude,
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  but we consider that as one of the characteristics when we engage in
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  diagnostic tools.
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  This is where I think there needs to be more deep reflection around how one is
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  diagnosed,
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  how conversations of disability is not separate from our understanding of
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  students and their language practices, their cultural practices.
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  What do we consider normative because normative is highly situated in culture
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  and context.
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  I would love to stay on this theme because one of the things that stands out in
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  that last portion of our conversation was this notion that rather than thinking
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  about we need to change the child,
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  part of what we really want to think about is what is the work that we might do
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  to change the learning environment?
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  And I wonder if you could talk a bit about how educators go about that and what
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  maybe some of the tools could be in their toolbox if they were trying to think
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  in that way.
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  I love that question of what can we as teachers do?
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  What's some actionable things?
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  I really appreciate Universal Design for Learning framework,
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  particularly their revised updated version or 3.0 version that just came out,
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  I think it was June or July of this year.
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  Let me give you a little bit of background about universal design.
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  And I'm sure you probably already know,
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  I've been reading a lot around its origins. It came about 1980s.
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  We know from cast.org, but I want to go further back,
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  and it really builds from universal design and the work of architecture.
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  So Universal design was coined by a disabled architect. His name was Ronald May.
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  And as I was reading his words,
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  it really helped me better understand what UDL is.
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  We know that UDL Universal designed for learning and universal design is about
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  access. Everybody should have access to curriculum and that sounds great,
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  but I've also seen classrooms where access to curriculum meant doing a
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  different worksheet while everybody else is engaging in small group,
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  whole group. Problem-based learning access might mean your desk
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  is in the front of the room where you're self isolated,
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  where you're really close to the friend of the board.
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  So you can see it really well, but you can't talk to your peers.
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  Or that access might mean you're in a whole different classroom doing the same
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  set of worksheets or problems, but you're not with your grade level peers.
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  And when Ronald Mays talks about access,
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  he explained that access in architecture had already been a focus in the late
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  19 hundreds around 1998 I think.
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  But he said that universal design is really about the longing,
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  and I think that really shifted the framing.
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  And his argument was that we need to design a place,
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  an environment where folks across a range of bodies and
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  minds feel a sense of belonging there that we don't need to
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  adapt. The space was already designed for you,
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  and that has been such a transformative perspective that it shouldn't be going a
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  different route or doing something different because by doing that,
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  you don't feel like you belong.
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  But if the space is one where you can take part equally and access
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  across the ways may you may engage, then you feel a sense of belonging.
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  The piece of what you said that I'm really contemplating right now is this
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  notion of belonging.
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  What occurs to me is that approaching design principles for a
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  learning environment or a learning experience with belonging in mind is a
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  really profound shift. Like asking the question,
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  what would it mean to feel a sense of belonging in this classroom or
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  during this activity that's happening that really changes
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  the kinds of things that an educator might consider going through a planning
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  process.
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  I'm wondering if you think you might be able to share an example or two of how
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  you've seen educators apply universal design principles in their
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  classrooms in ways that remove barriers in the environment and support
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  students' mathematical learning.
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  Oh gosh, I feel so blessed. I spend tomorrow,
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  I'm going to be at a school site all day doing this.
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  UDL is about being responsive to our students and knowing that the best
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  teaching requires us to listen deeply to who they are,
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  honor their mathematical brilliance and their agency.
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  It's about honoring who they are.
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  I think where UDL ups it to another level is it asks us to consider
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  who makes the decision.
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  If we are making all the decisions of what is best for that student,
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  that's not fully aligned with UDL, the heart of UDL,
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  it's around multiple ways for me to engage, to represent and express,
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  and then students are given choice.
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  So one of the things that's an important part of UDL is honoring students'
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  agency. So we do something called access needs. At the start of a lesson,
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  we might go,
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  what do you need to be able to fully participate in math today?
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  And kids from kindergarten to high school or even my college students will just
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  write out what they need. And usually it's pretty stereotypical,
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  I want to talk to someone when I'm learning,
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  I would like to see it and not just hear it.
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  And then you continually go back and you ask, what are your access needs?
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  What do you need to fully participate?
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  So students are reflecting on their own what they need to be fully
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  present and what they believe is helpful to create a
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  successful learning environment.
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  So that's a very strong UDL principle that instead of us coming
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  up with a set of norms for our students, we co-develop that,
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  but we're co-developing it based on students reflecting on their experience in
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  their environment. In kindergarten,
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  we have children draw pictures as they get older. They can draw, they can write,
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  but it's this idea that it's an ongoing process for me to name out
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  what I need to be fully present. And oftentimes they're going to say
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  things that are pretty critical.
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  It's almost always critical to be honest with you,
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  but I would say that's a core component of UDL.
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  We're allowing students to reflect on what they need so they can name it for
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  themselves, and then we can then design that space together.
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  And along the way, we have kids that name, you know what?
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  I need the manipulatives to be closer.
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  That will not come about at the start of me asking about access needs,
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  but we did a lesson and it was not close by. They'll tell me.
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  So it's really around designing an environment where they can fully participate
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  and be their full selves and feel a sense of belonging. So that's one example.
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  Another one that we've been doing is teachers and kids who have
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  traditionally not participated the most in our classrooms or have even engaged
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  in pullout intervention. And we'll have them walk around school telling us
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  about their day.
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  Will you walk me through your day and tell me how you feel in each of these
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  spaces and what are your experiences like? And again,
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  we're allowing the students to name out what they need,
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  and then they're naming out.
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  Oftentimes with the students that we're at where I'm working in mostly
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  multilingual spaces, they'll say, oh, I love this teacher.
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  She allows us to speak in Spanish in the room. Okay,
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  so that's going back to ideas of action expression engagement,
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  where students are allowed to trans language.
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  That's when the language principles,
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  but we're allowing students and providing spaces and really paying
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  close attention to how do we decide how to maximize participation for our
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  students With these set of UL guidelines,
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  how we are able to listen and make certain decisions on how we can strengthen
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  their participation, their sense of belonging in our classrooms.
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  I think what's lovely about both of those examples,
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  asking them to write or draw what they need or the
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  description of, let's walk through the day,
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  let's walk through the different spaces that you learn in or the humans that you
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  learn with is one.
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  It really is listening to them and trying to make meaning of that and using that
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  as your starting point.
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  I think the other piece is that it makes me think that it's something that
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  happens over time. It might shift,
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  you might gain more clarity around the things that students need or they might
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  gain more clarity around the things that they need over time,
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  and those might shift a little bit, or it might come into greater focus like,
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  I thought I needed this, or I think I needed this,
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  but what I really meant was this.
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  There's this opportunity for kids to refine their needs and for
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  educators to think about that and the designs that they create.
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  I really appreciate you naming that because it's all of that.
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  It's an ongoing process where we're building a relationship with our students
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  for us to co-design what effective teaching looks like,
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  that it's not a one size fits all.
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  It's disrupting this idea that what works for one works for all.
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  It's around supporting our students to name out what they need.
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  I'm almost 50. I struggle to name out what I need sometimes,
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  so it's not going to happen in one time. It's an ongoing process,
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  and in what we need is linked to context, so it has to be ongoing,
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  but there's also in the moments as well,
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  and it's the heart of good teaching and math.
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  When you allow students to solve problems in the ways that make sense to them,
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  that's UDL by design that's honoring the ideas of multiplicity and action
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  expression.
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  When you might give context based problem and you take the numbers away and you
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  give a set of number choices that students get to choose from.
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  That is also this idea of UDL because there's multiple ways for them to engage.
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  So there are also little things that we do that note how they're just
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  effective teaching,
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  but we're honoring this idea that children should have agency,
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  all children can engage in doing mathematics,
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  and part of learning mathematics is also supporting our students to see the
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  brilliance in themselves and to leverage that in their own teaching and
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  learning.
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  Something else that really occurred to me as we've been talking is the
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  difference between the way we've been talking about centering students
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  needs and asking them to help us understand them and the process
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  that kind of kicks off.
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  I think what strikes me is that it's actually opening up the possibilities of
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  what might happen or the ways that a student could be successful as opposed
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  to this notion that you're neurodiverse, you fit in this bucket.
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  There's a set of strategies that going to do just for you,
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  and those strategies might actually limit or constrict the options you have.
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  For example, in terms of mathematics,
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  what I remember happening very often when I was teaching is I would create an
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  open space for students to think about ways that they could solve problems.
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  And at the time,
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  often what would happen is kids who were characterized as neurodiverse wouldn't
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  get access to those same strategies.
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  It would be kind of the idea that this is the way we should show them how to do
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  it. It just strikes me how different that experience is.
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  I suspect that that was done with the best of intentions,
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  but I think the impact unfortunately probably really didn't match the
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  intent.
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  I love how you're being honest. As I did the same thing when I was teaching too,
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  because we were often instructed to engage in whole group instruction and
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  probably do a small group pullout. That was how I was taught.
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  And when the same kids are repeatedly pulled out because we're saying that
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  they're not able to engage in the instruction,
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  I think the part of uud L is uud L as a process,
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  realizing that if students are not engaging fully in the ways that we had hoped,
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  instead of trying to fix the child,
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  we look at the environment and think about what changes we need to make in tier
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  one. So whole group instruction,
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  whole group participation first to see how we can maximize their participation.
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  And it's not one strategy because it depends. It really depends. I think of,
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  for example, with a group of teachers in California and Texas now,
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  we've been looking at how we can track participation in whole group
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  settings, and we look at them across social demographics,
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  and then we started to notice that when we promote multimodal whole group
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  participation,
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  like kids have access to manipulatives even during whole group share out,
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  or they have visuals that they can point to their participation and who gets to
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  participate drastically increase. So there's many ways in which
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  by nature, we engage in some narrow practices because too,
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  oftentimes whole group discussion is almost completely verbal and at times
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  written and usually the teacher's writing.
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  So it's going back to the idea of can we look at what we want our students to do
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  at that moment? So starting on the math concept and practices,
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  but then looking at our students and when they're not participating fully,
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  it's not them.
• 23:15
  What are the UDL principles and things that I know and strategies that I have
• 23:19
  with my colleagues that I can make some small shifts.
• 23:23
  One of the things that I enjoy most about the podcast is that we really can take
• 23:27
  a deep dive into some big ideas,
• 23:30
  and the limitation is we have 20 minutes to perhaps a half hour,
• 23:34
  and I suspect there are a lot of people who are trying to make meaning of what
• 23:38
  we're talking about and thinking about how might I follow up?
• 23:41
  How might I take action on some of the ideas?
• 23:43
  So I want to turn just for a little while to resources,
• 23:46
  and I'm wondering if there are resources that you would suggest for a listener
• 23:50
  who wants to continue learning about universal design in a mathematics
• 23:53
  classroom?
• 23:54
  Oh my goodness, that's such a hard question. So many, some good ones. Overall,
• 23:58
  I would definitely encourage folks to dive into the UDL guidelines.
• 24:02
  The 3.0 updates. They're amazing.
• 24:06
  They're so joyful and transformative that they even have,
• 24:10
  one of the principles is centering joy in play, and for us to imagine that,
• 24:15
  right?
• 24:15
  Yes.
• 24:16
  What does that mean to do that in a math classroom?
• 24:18
  We can name out 50 different ways. So how often do we get to see that?
• 24:23
  I would highly encourage folks to download that,
• 24:27
  engage in deep discussion because it was a 2.2 version for I think quite a few
• 24:31
  years.
• 24:32
  I would also lean into a resource that I'm glad to email later on.
• 24:37
  It's more easily accessible. I talked about access needs,
• 24:40
  this idea of asking students, asking community members,
• 24:44
  asking folks to give this opportunity to name out what they need.
• 24:49
  It's written by a colleague,
• 24:51
  Dr. Daniel Reinhold and Dr. Samantha Richway.
• 24:54
  It's a lovely reading and it focuses specifically in STEM that I think it's a
• 24:58
  great place to read.
• 25:00
  I would say that Dr. Rachel Lambert's new book on UD L Math is an excellent
• 25:03
  read.
• 25:04
  It's a great joyful read to think about. I'm going to give one shout out to the
• 25:09
  book called The Year of the Tiger and Activist Life. It's by Alice Wong.
• 25:13
  I encourage that because how often do we put the word activism next to
• 25:18
  disability? And Alice Wong is one of the most amazing humans in the world,
• 25:22
  and it's a graphic novel. So it's just joyful.
• 25:24
  It's words with poetry and graphic novel mixed together to see the
• 25:29
  life of what it means to be a disabled activist and how activism and disability
• 25:33
  goes hand in hand. Because when you are disabled and multi marginalized,
• 25:38
  you are often advocating for yourself and others. It's amazing.
• 25:43
  So I'll stop there. There's endless amounts.
• 25:46
  So for listeners,
• 25:47
  we'll link the resources that C was talking about in our show notes.
• 25:51
  I could keep going, but I think this is probably a great place to stop.
• 25:55
  I want to thank you so much for joining us.
• 25:57
  It's really been a pleasure talking with you.
• 25:59
  Thank you. Thank you.
• 26:03
  This podcast is brought to you by the Math Learning Center and the Meyer Math
• 26:07
  Foundation dedicated to inspiring and enabling all individuals to discover
• 26:12
  and develop their mathematical confidence and ability.