Latest / More Organised Less Clutter / 262. Trauma, Shame, and Why Clutter is Never Just about clutter
Transcript
- speaker-0: Welcome to More Organized Less Clutter, a podcast to empower individuals and neurodivergent families with practical, realistic tools to create a more organized, sensory-friendly, clutter-free, and intentional home that works with your lifestyle and brain, not against it. I'm Norelle King, a professional organizer and neurodivergent mum who understands the unique challenges of family life. I help people just like you simplify your space. Build sustainable organizational systems and create more breathing room physically and mentally. Every fortnight you'll hear solo episodes and guest conversations filled with practical strategies on decluttering, home organization, routines for neurodivergent families, mindful living, and how to build a home that feels safe, calm, and functional. You'll walk away with actionable takeaways you can implement even if you only have 10 minutes to spare. Have you ever looked at a messy room and thought, why can't I just get my act together? Wow, what if clutter was never the real problem at all? Today I'm talking with Stacy from Flip Your Mindset. She's a certified trauma care practitioner, speaker, educator, and she shares an honest, eye-opening chat about trauma, shame, and why clutter is never just about clutter. She looks at how our emotional history, our nervous system, and even our sense of identity. shape the way we think, feel, and behave around our things. We also dig into two patterns that come up again and again. Generational scarcity and the safety some of us find from an abundance of things. We also talk about nervous system dysregulation, including complex PTSD and neurodivergence, And how both can actually reduce executive function, making organizing feel so much harder than it looks from the outside. Stacy uses clutter as a clue, not a character flaw. And instead of blame, she offers curiosity and self-compassion, and that simple shift moves the whole conversation from shame to understanding. Because clutter is often connected to emotional history, nervous system state, and identity, not just habits and discipline. So, if you're tired of feeling ashamed of your clutter and you're ready to reframe your whole approach to organization with a lot less judgment and a lot more self understanding, then you need to listen to the rest of our conversation. Let's jump into this more organized less clutter conversation with Stacy from Flip Your Mindset. Today, a more organized less clutter. I'm talking with Stacy, a certified trauma care practitioner, speaker, educator. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: And also the founder of Flip Your Mindset. She's going to be helping us today to understand how experience shapes the way we think, the way we feel, and also the way we behave. Welcome, Stacy. No, it's a pleasure to have you and to make the time to be able to discuss all the work that you do and some of those expertise around trauma that you can share with people who are listening. So let's start. If you were a Barbie doll, speaker-1: Thank you so much for having me. speaker-0: What two accessories would you come with so people can get to know you a little bit? speaker-1: I'd probably come with like a wool cap because I'm always cold and mittens. Like no ma I'm always cold. So I would love a Barbie doll that wasn't like in a bikini. I'd be like, give me the parka and the hat and the clubs no matter the season. speaker-0: So do you have gloves everywhere you go? In your handbag, in your car? speaker-1: I have gloves in most places. I h I struggle with something called rain nodes. So my hands are always cold and I find that if my head is warm, like the rest of my body stays warm. So I always have a baseball cap or a wool cap with me all the time. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. Thank you for sharing that. So if I could work with you, could fly over to America and work with you as an organizer, what area would you like support with? ⁓ speaker-1: ⁓ good question. You know, I love to cook, but my kitchen is probably the most disorganized space in my home. My my spices, my pots and pans for sure. You know, all the things that I use, probably because it is my most creative space. And so it's the one I'm in the most. And when I'm in that creative zone, I don't tend to organize. It's messy. Right. So I just kind of throw everything where it needs to go so I can quickly access it. But I would love a more organized kitchen space. I'd love that. speaker-0: to pull it all out and create a real functional kitchen for you. Yeah. It's one of my most fun actual jobs is actually creating a kitchen and making it more functional. So definitely I'd love to come and help you. But I'm sure there's a professional organizer near you who would love to come and help you do that. Yeah. So what's when you with the work that you do, what am are some of the most common things that you hear people say about themselves and their clutter? speaker-1: That's probably fun. Well, when I'm working with individuals, their their inner critic is usually very loud. So whether or not it's real or not, I'll often hear a lot of shame based language like I'm a slob, you know, or I'm a messy person, or I'm lazy, or I'm unmotivated, or I am a procrastinator. And anytime we have the word I am. In front of how we describe ourselves, we're really creating like a shame storm for ourselves, right? Versus just this morning, you know, I made a mess. That would be like something you do. But shame is really more of language about how you perceive yourself. So when it comes to clutter, I often hear people refer to themselves as a hot mess or a mess or, you know, disorganized. But I also hear a lot lazy procrastinating. Yeah. speaker-0: That's they're probably the two main ones that I would hear as well is yeah, that and that identifying that it's I am. And possibly it's maybe from childhood that they've started that, you know, narrative, isn't it? speaker-1: It can be. It can be. Or the you know, it there just seems to be sometimes people walking with a part of themselves that just is unforgiving. Right. Where maybe having a mess is not okay or having clutter is not okay. Or what I hear often is resting is not okay. So there's guilt for resting instead of taking care of. And maybe in that moment taking care of would have been taking care of the mess or taking you know, putting something away or so that I can see a tie in for sure. speaker-0: Yeah, definitely, isn't there? And so how would you l link like describe the link between this, between the sort of trauma and clutter as well? speaker-1: Well, I think it's really interesting. You know, there's a lot of different ways you can look at it. I think first and foremost, people don't really understand what trauma is. So if I had to help people understand, you know, trauma is not something that happened. It's not necessarily an event. It's the aftermath of the event. It's the way that an experience or an event continues to shape the way that you see yourselves, others, or the world around you. It's really what we call like the impending wound from the event, right? So say for example, if if you're in the kitchen and you cut yourself with a knife, cutting yourself with the knife is not the event. It's the wound that's the issue. That's the trauma, if especially if it stops you from being able to do what you would have done otherwise. And so you know I very often see there are a lot of different ways where unresolved experiences that leave these wounds in us manifest. In clutter. So there's two ways that I see it. Number one, if an experience was that someone lived with a tremendous amount of scarcity and instability. So let's just say there was housing scarcity or food scarcity or, you know, just material scarcity growing up, they may want an abundance of things that may leave their nervous system feeling more safe and secure. Especially if they grew up in a in a family system where scarcity ran the playbook. So let's just say if we went back like two or three generations, which would be, you know, at the turn of the century. And let's just say that here in the States, we had a grandparent that lived through the depression and things were not of easily available. When they were raising their kids then, those children, which become our parents. might have lived in an environment where there was a lot of talk around not having anything or stretching everything to its limit. And so then it could be that the aftermath of that is then there's a person that now has an abundance or has the ability to have abundance and that makes them feel safer because the other environment left them feeling unsafe. So we can have kind of this generational thread, right? The other thing that I see, which is a really interesting thing to consider, is if someone is walking with complex PTSD, which means that we've gone through a series of prolonged chronic stressors during our developmental years that had an impact on our mind, body, and psyche in a way that keeps us in a state of hypervigilance or state of alertness. When we're in a state of alertness, there's a part of our brain. Called the amygdala that's likely to be triggered. And when that is triggered, the prefrontal cortex of our brain goes offline, which is where all of our executive function is, right? And we need executive function to organize not just our lives, but our time. So you can have kind of two plays. One, you could have this generational conversation that's happened for a long time around things, food, material things, what have you, and/or. You can have a a ⁓ physiological response, a neurobiological response where our brain is offline. We see that in a lot of neurodivergence. There's always a big question about which came first, but it makes it very hard to organize when our amygdala is is engaged. speaker-0: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I love that that you've broken that into the two sections because literally you could come to work with me and you would be able to identify the different houses and the different situations and which one it is. But yes, definitely the executive functioning, I think people underestimate how much that impacts people. Like the people who can do it really easily are like I don't they don't understand how many steps and all the parts that make it up. Getting organized and organizing a space. Yeah. So for you, when you are then sort of unpacking that, what does it look like for like a person who possibly has PTSD compared to somebody who has that generational trauma? speaker-1: Well, it's a lot of it's a lot of information gathering. I often feel like a detective. So so I and I've often had it, especially in women, they'll come to me and they'll just say, I I can't get anyone part of my life organized. And then that leaves them feeling very shameful. And they don't like that about themselves. It feels like ⁓ they're not achieving something that they wanted to achieve, like internally, this compartmentalization capability of keeping their lives organized, or maybe they're getting feedback about it from a parent or a family member or spouse. So it's not leaving them feeling really great about themselves. So a lot of times what we'll do is we'll sit down and peel back the layers of what's important to you. And is it important to you that you're organized or is it important to the people around you that you're organized? So first is the awareness of where is the shame come from? Is it laying upon yourself or are you absorbing it from other people? And sometimes they don't actually know because a lot of times a lot of the people I've worked with have learned how to deprioritize what's important to them to meet the needs of someone else. So sometimes that just in and of itself opens up a conversation of I don't even know what I want because I've never had the option. I don't have those choices. So sometimes it really takes us back to like that simple. Fundamental and we might work through them realizing it does leave my nervous system feeling more calm when things are organized. Or they might say, I really don't care. It's the pressure from everyone else to be organized. Like I'm okay being messy and a mess. And actually within that mess is my own form of organization. Yeah. speaker-0: That one that's the one I really like when you can get to the bottom of, you know, that it's okay and let so then we can just organize that's going to suit you and your family, rather than the expectations of what it should actually look like. speaker-1: Yeah. Cause there is a lot of societal pressure, especially with things like Instagram and Pinterest, where they see something, right? And so it almost even makes them worse feeling about themselves because they want that level of organization. But then there's a part of them that actually would never keep it. And they have to be willing to be honest with themselves about that. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, definitely. So what about so what's happening internally? Like you mentioned before about internally you're looking and asking questions. What's actually happening when people have lots of clutter internally? speaker-1: I find the clutter really represents what's going on internally. And I do see a lot of it. I know there's some neurodivergence here within the podcast. Like I see that that tie-in a lot. When when it's very interesting, women in particular have done have found a very good way to mask neurodivergence, I feel. So sometimes they'll come to me and what we'll explore is it's not just the home that's cluttered, it's everything that's cluttered. And so sometimes it's actually the catalyst for them starting to get curious and and learn a little bit more about themselves and maybe start to identify there is a little neurodivergence in there. ⁓ I see that a lot actually. speaker-0: Hm. And are they quite surprised by that when they're unpacking it? Or it's more of a relief or a bit of both? speaker-1: I think it's both. I think it's both. Sometimes there's a bit of relief. Sometimes it's it's met with, you know, I've had like three other people say that to me, and I just don't buy it. And I think it's often because there is a very clear picture in people's minds of I'll use ADD as an example of what ADD is or what ADHD is or what autism is or what anything is on that spectrum. And it's such a wide nuanced spectrum. It's often that their impression of what that is is not accurate. But when they start to get like it's not the accurate true picture because it's such a spectrum, but when they start to dig in, they start to recognize, like, I actually have always been this way. Like I've always had these quirks. And I just I didn't I always just thought there was something wrong with me, which I would say there's nothing wrong with someone if they're neurodivergent. They would always say, I th I always thought there was something wrong with me, but maybe this is just. a normal part of me. And I'm like, maybe this is and so a lot of times we're really in a deep exploration phase. A lot of it comes with a lot of frustration, especially when there are children in the household. And there are so many moving parts. And there's a lot of what I hear from my clients, a lot of started projects, unfinished projects. Right. And some of them are really big and some of them are teeny tiny, but the culmination of all of it is like an explosion in their house. So Sometimes even though it's not my my lane, we might spend a session just they might say, Can you just help me create a list? I just need an accountability partner. And we'll come up with like one thing to do or two things to do that are really important to them that might keep their nervous system a little bit more regulated. speaker-0: Yeah. Just having those steps is amazing how you can see how that helps people. And I I mean, that's my main clients are neurodivergent. And for some of them it's coming in and saying, Okay, what are the steps? What do we need to do first? And once we're and the body doubling, so having accountability. Yeah. Once we've they've got that, it's like, Okay, let's go and we can get so much done. But yeah. speaker-1: But then they feel so much better about themselves. I mean, a lot of this is shame resilience, right? And resistance. So when they can start to feel better about themselves, everything starts to shift just a little bit. It's just a matter of like how did they maintain it for within themselves too? Like what is reasonable for for them? speaker-0: Yeah. So back with your sensations, how do you get them to explore that area as well? speaker-1: Well. Yeah. Well, I think I often hear from people coming in, there's a part of me that wants to be organized and there's a part of me that doesn't care. Right. I get that a lot. Or there's a part of me that just has so much shame, or I hear a lot of negative criticism from that, you know, inner critic part that it should be a certain way, even when it's not. And then I have this other part of me that really isn't interested. So again, this It allows us to just the curiosity comes from me asking a lot of questions and having them get curious, like, why are we judging instead of inquiring? And I can ask them and they'll often say, like, ⁓ I feel so uncomfortable in my body just thinking about the mess that's at home. And I will say to them, How does it feel? And they'll say, It just feels bad. And then I'll usually feel pull out like a feelings chart. And I'll say, let's try to get more discreet. And when they can get more discreet, embarrassed, frustrated, disappointed, shameful, angry, you know, when they can get clearer on the actual emotion, we can process the actual emotion. If we just throw them into these categories of good and bad, it's it's a little too bulky and big to have to deal with. You have to really just tease it apart. And when we can get to that, Discreet language. Often there's some story behind it. So the Inquisition is just the door opener. You know, we might say, ⁓ my dad always yelled at my mom because she always had a messy house too. And so that's the part of me, like my dad, I don't want my dad to be upset with me, but I really don't care. Just like my mom really didn't care. Like there's always something that comes out. And sometimes this has it comes down to having a voice and literally saying, I don't care. Or I do care and and finding what's important to you in that journey, you know? And they might come up to it with I really do want to be more organized because I don't like to feel so scattered, because we hear that a lot. And then, you know, what do we do with the part of us that has that that in a that that inner critic? And so I might navigate and teach them how to dialogue with the part of them that's trying to get them to feel the shame. So maybe they won't try. Cause what if they try to get things organized and then they just revert back to being messy again? That's where a lot of the shame comes in. So it's always just a very curious journey to take somebody on to get them to see where they land. Yeah. speaker-0: like that though. Breaking it right down though to that actual emotion and being able to identify the emotion that's that the feeling is and then looking at the stories behind it and yeah and deciding is that the what you want? Anyway, is it your story or someone else's story? So it's yeah. So Stacy, is there any examples that you can think of before we go of actual situations that, you know, any stories that you'd like to share of people speaker-1: Correct. speaker-0: who have really turned it around and changed. speaker-1: Yeah. I mean, look, I remember I had one client that came to me and sh she originally came to me for something else. And then it it got very exposed very quickly. ⁓ I have this project going on in my garage. I have this project going on in my bathroom. Like there was this consistent pattern of having a lack of confidence in themselves and a lack of self-trust in being able to complete things because they had all these unfinished things around the house. And ultimately what we started do is just get really, again, curious about, you know, why are we starting and not finishing things? What are the distractions? And then really starting to get clear about taking on things that were not theirs to take on to begin with. That was a really big moment of clarity. Not knowing how to ask for help or support, feeling like they have to do everything by themselves. And so even if the project itself didn't get done, what it did was it opened the door to really gaining a deeper understanding of how they got there in the first place and give themselves some grace, because that's really what's missing. So they can actually talk to themselves a little bit differently and go, Well, I am I'm not asking for help, but what'd it look like to ask for help? Or I did take that on. I didn't know how to say no, even though I knew it was over my head. You know, and and these are the things. So Again, I'm not saying that they got everything in order, but what I'm saying is it really helped them get to see themselves differently and in probably a clearer picture than they've ever had by way of using all of this disorganization as like a catalyst for it. speaker-0: Yeah, that's a great, absolutely amazing example because I can see that and the n lack of say boundaries and saying no and actually I have enough on my plate right now. So Yeah, yeah, no, I you know, we take on too much, don't we? I can vouch for that too at times. So Stacey, what is the best way for people to connect with you? speaker-1: We see that a lot. Of course. The best the two best ways are one, if they're on social media, my Instagram, which is my name, Stacy Yurig. It's S-T-A-C-E-Y-U-H-R-I-G. It's very much used for psychoeducation. They can come and learn all about anxiety and boundaries and all the good stuff. And then my website, which is flipyourmindset.com. speaker-0: Yeah, beautiful. And your and your podcast as well, which I will add links to all of those in the show notes. Thank you so much, Stacey, for your time and also sharing all your knowledge as well. No, my pleasure. speaker-1: Yeah. Thank you for having me. speaker-0: If you find yourself wasting precious time searching for misplaced items and wishing for a more organized life, then you need my 5-minute declutter ebook, the ultimate guide to quick and easy organizing solutions for a clutter-free and happy home. Forget about spending months commaring your house. These fun solutions are designed to give you immediate results in under 5 minutes. Head over to Simply Happy in the resource section and download your free copy and start seeing results in minutes. I'd like to acknowledge the Wotherong people of the Kulin Nation on which this podcast is recorded as the traditional custodians of the land. I pay my respects to their elders, past, present and emerging.