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Are Pastrami and Mustard Enough? with guest Elyssa Heller of Edith's Sandwich Counter · Meet Me At The Deli

• Heeb Media: Welcome to Meet Me at the Deli, a food advice podcast where the pickles and slaw are always free. I'm Liz. And I'm Jeffrey. Every episode we're answering your burning food and culinary questions. And we're sharing our stories and insights from years working in the industry and living in our self-maged Edel. Jeffrey, how are you? Liz, I'm good. I'm doing well. How are you doing? All right. All right. What's going on? OK, so I had an experience. So we have a guest today, ⁓ owner or founder of Edith's. Alyssa Heller. So excited. And so I went to Edith's. I was inspired. I came off of a train off of Moynihan Hall. I went down to the village and I went to Edith's. I had this experience that I wanted to tell you about because it reminded me of something that happened years ago that I thought you'd appreciate. So I go and it was a Saturday, Saturday midday. So like. This is the moment. Busy. People are out. Yeah. I'm waiting outside and I ask a question or two of the people working there and there was a woman who was already waiting outside and she said, I'm just going to follow your lead. She's basically made it clear. She was not really sure what to do, but she's going to follow my lead. Yeah. And I talked with her a little bit and she was visiting from the Bay Area. And we were kind of getting, we got into the waiting area, the vestibule before we got into the shop while we were waiting, because again, there was a really popular day there. And she was looking at the menu and I said, what are you going to get? And she's like, I don't know. And I said, how did you find out about this place? She said, I found it on Yelp. And she was completely brand new. So I kind of talk her through, OK, well, this is what they're known for. They're known for their coffee slushies. And I mentioned the tatkas, the tat latke. And I was talking about some of the sandwiches. And she basically was saying, tell me what to order. Yeah, she needed you. And she was very overwhelmed, just because she's from the Bay Area. because I loved guiding her through this process and you know I ordered and I waited for her I kind of watched her order it was a kind of the support experience it reminded me of this moment that when we first connected working together back in 2011 when I was sitting at this counter at Second Avenue deli and I was eating a sandwich and I don't know if you remember this story or not but I was listening behind me to these men from, I think it was Knoxville, Tennessee. ⁓ I do, I know where you're going with this story. I remember this. These businessmen were holding menus, looking, they were clearly confused, and they were looking at what to order at the second Avner deli, and they were, I think they were thinking, the turkey club, and they were like, they kept mentioning all the things you do not get at a deli. It's just like, that is just a bad order. And it was all the things, know, like the, I forgot, I don't even remember some of the things, like things that I'd never even seen on the backside of that menu. And I interrupt and I say, excuse me, you should get the pastrami and matzo ball soup. And I mentioned the cell ray. And they go and they say thank you. And they go to sit down. And then a couple minutes later, I get a tap on my shoulder. And they say, excuse me, do you mind coming and sitting with us and ordering for us? We'll cover your meal and just guide us through this experience. And so I ended up sitting and regaling these businessmen from Tennessee who came because their hotel concierge had told them to go. And I ordered them, I got them chopped liver and kasha farnaschkas, I got them the, you know, mushroom, the egg barley and mushroom, and I kind of got them all these things. I made them try gefilte fish, and I gave them the history, the context, and it was so amazing that when we first sort of connected at The Food World, I kind of said, is there a way to guide people through eating experiences? And so I love that this just, yesterday, I got to do that again. It's so great. And I will say, Jeffrey, we... have guided people at the Jewish Deli many times since then. those guys gave you a gift of an idea because it's something that we've done. People come in, we've taken deli tours, we've brought groups of people from California, college students, high school students, groups of professionals. I would say when anybody visits us from out of the country, we always have them meet us at Second Avenue Deli. And we order. We don't let them order. That's what we do. It's true. It's true. I want to say I'm very excited to bring on Alyssa in a couple minutes to help us with a couple questions, but you just... made me think of something when you were talking about how it was a sunny day. And it is, it's like we're getting into the spring here in New York where it's those days and people are sitting outside after this very long winter, this sort of brutal winter that we've had. And I wanted to ask you, I sometimes when I see everybody sitting outside and it's a beautiful day, I become a little bit of a Grinch. I'm like, ⁓ look at all these people outside with nothing to do. They're so happy. I don't know. I have a negative reaction to that. And I wondered if you were the same or... Why? I don't know. It's literally just the most beautiful thing. I don't know. No. There's other people in the studio who are nodding their heads in alignment with me. So I assumed, Jeffrey, after knowing you all these years, that you actually were going to be like, I totally know what you mean, Liz. When the weather gets nice and people start looking all cute and they're drinking coffee outside or wine in the middle of day like I too become a Grinch and tell everybody to get to work but I guess you don't do that so now I have to reroute my sense of who I think you are but ⁓ yeah it doesn't mean I like I too sat outside yesterday in a beautiful day and drank a Bloody Mary so I did that and I enjoyed it. were self-loathing with it? No it's like when I'm doing it I feel okay but I think it's just envy deep inside I think it's envy but like if I'm not doing that then I'm like Ugh, like I can't believe everybody just gets to do that, you know? I, so I'm not self-loathing, but it's... There's a, yeah, there's a grinchiness that comes over me. And I'm not that grinchy. I'm very positive. All right, a little grinchy. I think the nice weather piece of it threw me off, but I've seen people just midday just like lounging and hanging out. I do walk around and say, does anyone work? Does anyone work? I do have that experience in New York. is particularly around those days when it starts to change and it's really beautiful. Okay. All right. We have to stop talking about this because we have questions. Okay. Okay. Let's get to the questions. So. We're so excited to bring on Alyssa Heller from Edith's. Edith's started as a pop-up back in 2020 and it was so successful doing amazing sandwiches that it now has, there are now two brick and mortar locations, one in Brooklyn, which is like a counter, sandwich counter, which is the one I more regularly frequent closer to where I live. And then one in the Manhattan, the one that you're talking about now that you were at yesterday, a bigger shop. ⁓ You know, I'd say Edith's is really known for its sandwiches and it's sort of all day breakfast. experience, but I'd say the sandwiches are very unique, so we have a sandwich question today and we thought it'd great to bring on Alyssa. So Alyssa, join us please. Get in here. Thanks for coming. guys, this is so fun. Isn't fun? Thanks for having me. I'm gonna put on. Yeah. Yeah. So Alyssa, you might not remember the last time I saw you, but I remember the last time I saw you and it was a very special day. No, I remember. what was it? Jewish Christmas. Yes. It was Montaigne. Of course, it's like the best night of the year. The holiest day of the year. Yeah, I was invited to go with some friends in New York and ⁓ being from Chicago. It was surprising to me that now I'd been in New York for, June will be 15 years for me. ⁓ And I had still never done the whole, like go to a Chinese food restaurant on Christmas or Christmas Eve and do the whole New York Jewish Christmas handshake thing. And I did it last year and it was the best night of my life. And then I did it again this year and I saw you. Amazing, amazing. I love that that's when y'all last saw each other. So happy. ⁓ I also noticed, Alyssa, that you're wearing a Riviera Produce sweatshirt. I just came from work. Alyssa, you've shared that you smell like fry oil and I respect that. I don't, I don't, I kind of want to smell it. You're in a booth and I don't smell it. I know. I mean, this won't be like, I mean, hopefully by the time this airs like Instagram, TikTok like won't have a smell feature. So I feel like I'm safe. You never know. Things are evolving. don't know. Things are changing rapidly. Okay. So you're ready for the first question? We hope you'll stick around for more, but this is the question we thought would resonate. The most with you. Jewish deli sandwiches are generally so basic. Meat, bread, mustard. Adding extra toppings like lettuce and tomato or other condiments, it's just like it doesn't feel right. It feels gimmicky. Any ideas on how to stay true to the Jewish deli while also adding some innovation? That's a question from Michael in St. Paul. Thanks, Michael. We're answering your question today with Alyssa. Michael, A plus question. Good question, right? It took me 10 years in the food industry to get there, so. 10 years to get to the place of questioning sandwich structure and creation? To feel like I was comfortable enough. putting my own interpretation on Jewish food in sandwiches in a way that felt like I was doing justice to the Jewish deli and not doing something that was like too sticky or like, I don't know, like gimmicky. I feel like there's a lot out there that's like a caricature of Jewish food and it's like a bubby or like... I'm like, okay, but like it's a little, it's a lot more than that. And I think with Jewish food specifically because there's a religious component. innovation in a way that honors the food, I think is a very fine line that a lot of people can lose. I think at Edis we do a really good job of not losing that because when people can ask us about a sandwich on our menu, we can give them the history behind it. I think Jewish food is so rooted in history that if you start from understanding the history and the historical significance of the dish, then you can kind of Honor it or put a creative twist on it in a way that feels like you're doing justice to the food and like yeah It's your own version of it, but you're not changing a standard of identity Yeah, yeah, I want to get into this a little bit more but before you do maybe it's worth talking about the the premise of the question is that these food, these sandwiches are basic and maybe a bit boring. And I'm also curious, maybe why and do we feel that is actually the case? Like, do you feel let down when you go and get just a, you know, we're around the corner from Katz's and you go and get a pastrami with mustard and rye, you know, is that, like, does that hit? Is it missing something? I mean, are you more of a Reuben person, you know, and a Reuben being, right, like you're, you've got your, your, your crouch, you get your crunch from the cabbage, you got your Russian dressing, you got your. Cheese on there. Yeah, I'm like curious where everyone falls in terms of this on the spectrum of deli sandwiches that of the mainstream basic ones you know for me I I Will always choose I will always want a pastrami or a corned beef sandwich or a Reuben in a Jewish deli But outside of a Jewish deli. I don't like outside of that particular world in context I don't want a second-rate pastrami sandwich I don't want a second rate corned beef sandwich. So for me, those sandwiches are perfect in the perfect atmosphere with the perfect craft. I love to use pastrami in different purposes. love to like, like the, you know, the wrap that Edith has with pastrami, I love, but I don't think of that as a pastrami sandwich. You know what I mean? Like what you got was a great order. It's our pastrami egg and cheese latke wrap. Like when I think of a pastrami sandwich, I don't think of that. I love, I mean I started Edith's because I grew up with my beloved Barnum and Bagel Deli, which I talk about. a good name, such a good name. And it's so good, I talk about it all the time, how I just wish it would come back to life, my Barnum and Bailey circus themed Jewish deli, Skokie Illinois. Chicago, right? Oh, Skokie Illinois, yeah. And I think that I... I had this aversion to the basic deli sandwich because none of them were good. It sounds kinda bad, like, I don't know, I'll go to some delis today and maybe it's because they were struggling for so long or like, there's all this history about... people who love the Jewish jelly, they wanna revive it. And I feel like for me, just never, I don't know, I wanted to incorporate more flavor, less white and brown into Edith because I never liked what I got. And now that we like, I mean, we smoke our own turkey, it takes like a week to do. We make our own pastrami. I'm in New York. I mean, it's the best deli city in the world. And the quality of the food is so good that I feel like I will happily eat a Reuben. And it's just great because the quality of the product is good. So how do we answer, Michael? how, what? How do we stay true to the Jewish deli while adding some innovation? Yeah, well, I just want to say, I will say, when I have a really good pastrami, and you have one that is super tender and you bite into it and it just like melts in your mouth and it's fatty and you get that really nice spice from the rub and you have that and you have like the intensity of that sharp deli mustard, right? And it's got that horseradishy vibe, right? They're in the same family. It's got that intensity. that it kind of gets in the back of your throat too. You have that with some really nice rye bread and you have that with a cell rate to me there is no more perfect sandwich experience you know possibly and yet I know that it's missing crunch there's no crunch And crunch is a huge thing. crunch, I feel like I get the crunch from the pickle, which I am eating in conjunction. Do toast the bread? Well, so this is the thing. This is the most perfect experience of the sandwich. Now I think about most New York delis and the bread's usually lackluster. It's really the rye bread is not what it used to be. So I go to a place like, I think of a Zingerman's in the Midwest, There they got the double crusted rye bread. So the rye kind of steals the show. But then their sandwiches, sometimes they put on like lettuce and tomato. what's going on here? This is too much. And they do a classic, but you know, ⁓ I haven't had that perfect version of my deli sandwich in a long time. Everyone's got like the things that they do really well and things that aren't as strong at the different delis. And so I do think there's room for innovation because it's really hard to get that perfect. ⁓ hand-sliced pastrami to get the right ratio of mustard onto the meat to get the right bread and to have the whole experience with the crunchy pickle and the right like to create that it requires such ⁓ almost precision. Yes, exactly. That's a great word. And so I do think there's room for it and I think it's really hard and it's so difficult to ever please anyone because if they come from a barn man bagel ⁓ Deli experience and then they come to a New York style It's not gonna meet their needs and so I do think we the only way to move the deli forward is to be innovating these kinds of sandwiches. And so I'm so curious how you think about this. Yeah, and a lot of things are really similar too. Like if you're if you think that your Reuben lacks innovation or flavor, like sauerkraut is also kimchi. You can swap it out and it doesn't I mean, and it creates a way more interesting sandwich potentially. And like you get a little bit of heat, you get a different type of fermented flavor, you get a different texture. It's still Reuben. Like it still has the same elements of it. You can change out cheeses. to very anti-mayo, because I'm like, I'm like Jewish. I mean, I'm not a mayo person. And now we use so much mayo at Edith's. have different flavored mayos. Like we have a giant smoker. We'll smoke things that aren't normally smoked. We'll use, I don't know, if it's a matzo ball soup or, I don't know, it's not a sandwich. But we'll use a smoked chicken broth. I don't know, you can add different elements to dishes, I feel like, so easily just by being like, ⁓ what is this similar to? Oh, let me try swapping it. Or if you don't normally toast your bread, toast your bread. You know, it adds like a different layer of dynamic, you know, texture. You know, what this is making me think about two things. One is a few months ago, was at Lair House in Boston, which is this restaurant in Boston that's a House of Learning, but they are known for a beet ruben. ⁓ cool. And people told me it was so good and I was like, okay, on the surface I will tell you I had a skepticism about it. They did it right. It's smoky, it's flavorful, the texture is fantastic. That to me is a great example of an innovation that could, it was like... done well with thoughtfulness. And they're a vegetarian and dairy restaurant, so they're not going to have any meat. So they sort of wanted to find something like that. And it worked. How did they prepare the beets? I honestly don't know, but I'm pretty sure that they do some sort of pickling and then smoking of them. That would be my guess. Yeah, I didn't get that when I was at Lair House. I'm bummed to have missed it. I'll say I actually feel uncomfortable with the Reuben, because I grew up in a more traditionally kosher household. And we'd go to a kosher deli. So the Reuben was with something that just... cheese and meat. Exactly. So even though I'll go to now katsu and everything, I'm uncomfortable with the Reuben experience. It doesn't really speak to me, but I do want to get some of those elements. I want to get the crunch. I want to get more texture. I want to get more flavors. And I do feel like you already putting pickles beside the... Like pickled items, like a kraut or putting the pickles somehow or some kind of pickle thing onto the sandwich, it can give it both crunch, texture, all those things. So I see the direction that's going and I like it. Alright, I hope we answered your question, Michael. Wait, Just very quickly, just tell us, what's a sandwich creation that you're most proud of? Oh, good point, good point. The sandwich that I'm really proud of are proteins because we make them all ourselves, which is a real labor of love, but deli turkey normally freaks me out. So I was like, we have to do this better. And so really proud of our proteins in general. I'm really proud of, I would say, our safari wrap. It's like our best-selling breakfast sandwich. ⁓ Can you tell us what that is? Yeah, it's our breakfast wrap. We have two types of breakfast sandwiches at Edith's. We do them on bagels. ⁓ And then we also have our breakfast wraps. They're on Malawa, which is a Yemenite Jewish bread. They're flaky. They're very similar to a scallion pancake without the scallions, if you need like a visual reference. And ⁓ we do the Sephardi wrap and we call it the Sephardi wrap because it's kind of an ode to Sephardic food. And Malawak is actually Mizrahi. ⁓ We make a chicken sausage in-house that's Portuguese in style. I'm going to butcher it, but it's called an al-Hira sausage. And when Jews were fleeing Spain during the Spanish Inquisition, a lot of them fled to Portugal. And there's a story about a lot of Jews hiding and learning how to be butchers is, you know. We used to and continue to still be in a lot of different trades and that was like a very common way to ⁓ make a fresh start. And Jewish butchers wouldn't butcher pork. ⁓ They would butcher chickens and we kind of thought, or I thought that was like a really cool story. And one that we could kind of tell through food in like a little bit of a cheeky way. So we turned it into a breakfast sandwich. Yeah, it's our number one best-selling sandwich. That and our bacon, egg and cheese latke, which I guess I'm also proud of because that's my like, it's like my love letter to New York. But yeah, the Sephardi Breakfast Wrap tells a really interesting story of Jewish food and like the Jewish people through food. ⁓ It has pickled Fresno chili peppers on top, harissa aioli. So it's kind of got this like... ⁓ a little citrusy element because we actually put preserved lemon in the harissa aioli. yeah, it's a really unique one and listening to so many people come in and order it ⁓ is a really cool experience just to be like, wow, this is it's something that I could have never. had growing up and I feel like, I don't know, I'm proud to share the story with people today. And it's really good. Yeah, well I like that you're not only thinking about flavor and texture and all of these pieces, you're also thinking of the storytelling piece and expanding beyond just that Eastern and Central European origin, which is really cool. And I'd imagine you're doing a fair amount of education along the way. People ask questions, like, why is this called this? What is Malawak? And your folks have to explain some of that. Yeah, it's cool. ⁓ non pushy way to share a little bit of our story and like there's no better way to do that than through food and yeah there's I food has always been a great vehicle for storytelling I mean you guys know so ⁓ but yeah it's been really really cool so Proud of that for sure. Very cool. Well, Michael in St. Paul, someone answers your question and hopefully we'll get a chance to... you're bored, go get Malawa and make some scrambled eggs. Yeah. We'll work on answering some of the different versions of that question over future conversations And start using mayo. So this is one that came in from Daniela in DC, it's next question. And I feel like being a chef in New York you'll have thoughts in it. Yeah. But I know, Liz and I think about this a lot. I have thoughts about most things in general. Nice. So what is the difference between Morton's kosher salt and Diamond Crystal and core sea salt and when do you use which? ⁓ don't ask me. This one I like have no skin in the game on because I don't know. I'm not a chef. What you use at the restaurant? ⁓ Well, we use diamond crystals all the time. We thought you might say that. I think just to set the stage for those who aren't really... in the debates is, kosher salt is so often used in the restaurant industry, it's used in pickling and all of these things. the two biggest brands, Morton's and Diamond Crystal, they are just so different in their approaches and philosophies. Approaches and philosophies? Well, I'm from Chicago. We would drive into the city past the giant Morton salt factory. So you're really putting me on blast for this because I'm a little bit of a traitor. Diamond Crystal. Well, I say, think those who kind of know tend to love Diamond Crystal, but I feel like Morton's is much more ubiquitous. And so when we worked on our cookbook, we put kosher salt, you know, as an ingredient. And one of my big regrets is that we didn't specify, we did say in the beginning that we prefer Diamond Crystal, but in each recipe to say Diamond Crystal. because who's going to read the reference information in the beginning? So the reason this matters is a few things. One is, so kosher salt, of course, being a coarser salt, you might know what is the one that Salt Bae uses or all the chefs who are know sprinkling salt on things it's it has that coarseness to it we use it when we pickle because it's non-iodized we like that element of it it is ⁓ but I would say Diamond Crystal is just it like it both it's it has like a hollow center it has less less dense so Morton's is saltier like by volume you know and so when we give a recipe and it's not by weight but it's by volume so a tablespoon of kosher salt which most American recipes do you are then going to have a much saltier experience if you use Morton's crystal Morton's kosher salt. So we tend to be on team Diamond Crystal because we feel like we have more control over the saltiness because those Morton's crystals are thicker and bigger and chunkier. Now there is in this question also coarse sea salt. And coarse sea salt to me is the densest and the most coarse of them all. I know I've definitely used recipes for with meat, tenderizing meat or pickling where they have wanted specifically. the coarser salt. I've made kimchi and some of the recipes that I've learned with kimchi are like you have to use a more dense crystal, not the diamond crystal. So I would say the answer to your question about like when do you use both is like some of it is about developing a practice and knowing your salt, right? So I use Diamond Crystal at home and my partner uses fine sea salt. I tend to over salt things with that as well because it's looser, it's very fine. I tend to just toss in my salt thinking that it's Diamond Crystal but it's not. It really is... It's a finer salt. And so we have both salts in our house. One side of the toaster oven or the other. Which side are you on? I've only ever used diamond crystal salt except for when... At Edith's we use powdered salt for our tapas. Because it is the finest and it sticks the best. That makes a lot of sense. And I'm really particular about that. I do enjoy a powdered salt and one of the best things ever, like best salt was someone, I forgot who it was, was making this powdered salt and bay leaf combo and to that is just... that sounds great. Can anyone explain what powdered salt is? To our listener. It's ultra fine. It literally is like a powder, but if you make French fries at home, sometimes depending on when you take something out of the fryer, if it's not super hot or you don't hit it with salt right away, it won't stick. But it's not like a powdered sugar, which is mixed with cornstarch. It's more just pure salt, which is a little bit different than the powdered sugar experience. So one of the most stressful things I've ever experienced is having to cook for a lot of people in a kitchen that is only table salt. very, I just, I've been too far gone. It's been too many years of cooking with the kosher salt. So that's very overwhelming to me. Mortons though, I do remember when there was a diamond crystal shortage during the pandemic, it was really hard to get. And the Morton salt was really what you could find. I feel like David's crystals is another one you find in the supermarket. That's kind of just also, it's basically, think it's mortons in different packages. really don't know how to cook with it well. And pickling, it stresses me out because when you shake the salt in the jar, or if you're making a small batch, it takes a long time to dissolve. It's more work. You have to do a more vigorous shake. And so it's just a little bit off. So I would just say to answer Daniela, I would just ignore Morton's altogether. Wow. Just go all in Diamond Crystal. Get the vintage box. Don't get the new box. It is very confusing. We were wondering when the hot take was going to come. I was waiting for that. I also don't think really anybody Watch out, Morton's. restaurants, I don't know anybody that actually uses it. It's more of like for the home cook, feel like. Yeah, yeah. I feel like the prosumer approach would be the diamond crystal. But the new box says salt flakes in a particular way that confuses people. think it's more like... The diamond crystal think it's more like a flaky salt. Like a finishing salt. But it's actually, ⁓ it's just because the way that it's shaped, it's almost like this... It's actually very beautiful. It's almost like a pure, a... If I was I would do that too. I'd like, we need to try to gain market share. Let's try this. I actually would like to know more about Morton's market share because they really are ubiquitous of who's using it, but it's for another episode. We'll have to bring a full We do have a better logo though. Yeah, it's cute. It's very cute. All right, folks, we've got one more question that's kind of a doozy. I'm like, why did we... Leave this for last. Why are leaving this for last? Why are we even answering this many difficult questions in one episode? Okay. Why is Jewish food so unhealthy from Hadass in Birmingham, Alabama? Okay, can we just break it down a little? Okay, we have a lot of we have a lot to say. I think that Hadass means to ask specifically because the reputation is that Eastern European people I think I was gonna say what is Jewish? know, I think that I Yeah, what's Jewish? By Jewish I suspect she's referring to what is considered to be the unhealthy cuisine, which would be the Eastern European, Central European Ashkenazi Jewish food, or the foods of the deli, for example. So I think that's, I just want to Do we all agree that that's probably what she's asking? Okay. Fair enough. So what is healthy? She's definitely not talking about hummus. Debatable. Debatable. But she's talking about pastrami sandwiches, she's talking about brisket, she's talking about matzo ball Yeah, because the shuttle was cold. Okay, all right, so here's the rant of Liz and Jeffrey on this topic. We all know. that the foods we eat now that are these Jewish foods, these foods are, when do we eat them? We eat them primarily on the holidays. We eat them on special occasions. And what are holiday and special occasion foods? They are the richest foods. They are the fattiest foods. They are the foods that you eat for celebrations. They are not your daily foods. They are... the foods that you're preparing for your Passover table where you're roasting a big brisket, right? They're the foods that you go out to the Jewish deli. So I just think part of this is that the foods that we associate, or maybe that Hadass is associating with Jewish foods, are not everyday foods. And... They are inherently less healthy as the non-everyday foods. I'll be honest, I'm really grateful for this question, but we get this question so often, and I'm so annoyed at this because it speaks to our misunderstanding of what this cuisine actually is. It speaks to the Americanized version of this. Most of what people think of as unhealthy is actually the Americanized version of Eastern European shtetl foods. What did people eat in the shtetl? What was the most common snack? I mean, I don't know if it was most common, but a common snack reading through ⁓ Yiddish literature is a radish and a little bit of schmaltz on it. know, like you know, Did a hot pastrami sandwich on rye exist in the old country? No! It's a modern invention. What did all the immigrants who came to, came to New York, came to the Lower East Side, you know, the great book by Hastia Diner, Hungering for America, it says In America, we can eat meat every day. We can eat meat three times a day. We can have challah every day. These are foods that, if you did have pastrami, you most likely lived in Romania, you had... you know, a cold cured ⁓ meat made from goose likely, maybe lamb if you were in the Jewish community. You had that once in a while on a little charcuterie board. I mean, maybe it wasn't a charcuterie board, you have, you know, maybe not a charcuterie. You had it, you know, served to you on a special occasion like you mentioned the idea of eating a giant sandwich that you have to unlock your jaw to eat. This was a celebration of American excess. You know, thinking about, I'm thinking, Liz, the other day you made that really rich dairy noodle kugel. Oh yeah, I have a story about that. Which is like It's like my favorite. Oh they're amazing, but it's sour cream, butter, it's cottage cheese, farmer's cheese. called him and I was like, Jeffrey, I just spent $100 on noodle kugel ingredients because it was like, was like me in my freshman year of college trying to make it for my first Jewish friend who that, or sorry, for my first. friend who I was her first Jewish friend and she took one bite and she was like is this sugary pasta? And you were like yes it is. a lot of dairy too you didn't mention the dairy. Yes and like now I'm poor. But this is the American way so when we actually talk about this, why is Jewish food so unhealthy, why is Ashkenazi Jewish food so unhealthy? We're actually talking about really why is American culture so unhealthy? Why did we abandon some of these things? Almost every dish would have been eaten with something fermented. The bread you ate would have been made from a sour starter. You'd have a lacto-fermented, live-cultured pickle or sauerkraut with most meals. You were eating mostly vegetables through the last couple of hundred years in the region because meat was so expensive. Some of the reason was because it was taxed kosher meat. I think we just need to get over this. Like, I grew up thinking that... these foods were because of my family's culture and background, I was destined to a life of bad digestion. Like IBS was my future. And what I feel like I have since learned, I learned this when I worked on a, college, I moved on to a Jewish organic farm called Adama. I learned how to make live cultured foods. was making goat dairy. We were making yogurts. I was eating like, and I had bacteria. My microbiome was so strong. And this is not what you get in the deli. The deli you get the greatest the fatty foods, the wintry foods, because it is summer in the shtetl, sometimes, in the summertime. It happens. there are, and there's this fresh produce, there's, you're eating amazing berries, there's wild mushrooms, like we just, have a sliver of what is available today, so as a representation, so that's my little rant, but I just feel like we get the question a lot, but I also, we just need to think beyond that. You know, we really, we need to change the story. Yeah, it's very distilled, down... version of like the most profitable, like it's just what everybody thinks of now because it's what sells or what this has evolved into being. But even like the delicatessen itself had a lot more than just like giant sandwiches. I mean, it had snacks, it had a whole butcher counter. mean, the delicatessen itself has evolved in quite a unique direction. But yeah, I agree. And that said, the thing that bothers me more than anything is lean pastrami. Because it's like if you're gonna do it, you're gonna get it, you get the flavor, you enjoy it. Don't get a lean pastrami, don't have an unsatisfactory experience if you're gonna have these flavorful rich foods. I love the deli and its fattiness. I love, you know, frying latkes and having my hair smell like fried oil for, you know, days. ⁓ That's also part of it. That's the flavor so we can appreciate that, but I just don't want to I don't want to water it down so much that the foods we eat are trying to recreate eat the deli or these rich foods but then we do them poorly. Like let's just have them on special occasions and you know I don't know. That's sort of my perspective on that. Okay Hadass, thanks for your... you for a question that had a lot of fodder for a conversation. We did it! We made it to our final stage. We're sliding into the vinyl seats of the deli so each of us get the chance to quell or kvetch about foods we've been thinking about or we get to share something that we've made or... that we want the other to try. So, Liz, what do you got? I brought a small gift for all of you. Earlier today, I was at a Jewish children's cooking activity in East Williamsburg. You know, because that's what I'm up to on Sunday mornings. Have kids, guys. That's what you're going to be doing. So we were there. We were doing this kids activity. And at the entrance, there's you know, name tags and stuff and welcome. And next to the name tag, station is a basket of buttons. And know, like sort of Jewish inspired buttons. Shout out to the neighborhood, the organization that was hosting this event with LabShul. So that was awesome. Thank you the neighborhood and LabShul. And I asked around, I'm like, who made these buttons? Because clearly they weren't like off the shelf. And it turned out that someone from the neighborhood had made the buttons and I talked to them a little bit about it and ⁓ I was very intrigued by these buttons. They are Dr. Brown's soda buttons. ⁓ my gosh, those are so cool. What is Dr. Brown's? Okay, so Dr. Brown's iconic Jewish deli soda. the best. Brand and many many flavors and they have a really like vintage looking can so great. Do you serve Dr. Brown's at Edith's? We do we have all the flavors all the flavors including root beer. Very good root beer. The root beer's excellent. Excellent. one of my... When I outgrew the cream soda, I went to root beer before I made my... You outgrew cream soda? How is that possible? I do not like cream soda. What? soda's a horrible drink. That was like a starter soda ⁓ my gosh, it was so sick. I used to mix it with orange. Well... Alright, we'll talk more about that another time. ⁓ So these are so cute and one of the things I was really interested in, so the two flavors that there were pins of, were the most iconic, which is the black cherry. Everybody loves black cherry. Is more iconic than celery? Celery, okay, I'm getting to celery. The I'm getting to celery. is the best. Guys, I'm getting to celery, okay? Just hold your horses. There is also a diet cream soda. No, the diet Diet cream soda, okay. I was curious about that. favorites are really Because the really pale ones are always the diet. It's the only diet soda I drink. So first of all, ⁓ which one would you like? can have either one. Black cherry. Yeah, I was like, I'll go for the diet cream soda. Also, the blue is diet cream soda and the pink is black cherry. I don't know. But I don't know why the neighborhood had to gender these sodas. whatever. Okay, so then I approached the person who made the pins and I said, tell me about why you chose these flavors. And they were like, you know, we were working with the designer and these were their favorite flavors or whatever. And I was like, talk to me about cell ray. Why isn't there a cell ray? And what they said is that they knew how controversial cell ray was. What's controversial about it? That people either love it or they hate it, and they have very strong feelings. And they specifically did not want to make a cell ray pin thinking it would either be like the first to go or people would not take them. Like we didn't know. It was too risky, if we're only making two, to make a celery pin. And I thought that was hilarious and a bit astute maybe. I just think for those who do not know, celery is the celery seed soda. Okay, but when you say it like that, it sounds polarizing. That is also incredible. is incredible. So to all of my... We have about... 60 people that work at Edith's now. Wow. Not one of them has tried celery soda until they came to work, I swear. Once I describe it as the ancestor beverage of ginger ale, they're like, ⁓ I, it puts a different like mental framework there. The ancestor beverage of ginger ale. I don't know if that's true, but in my mind it's true. Cause it feels like it would be true. And then I stand on it and I make it true. And I think every single person that has tried it, knowing that beforehand, likes it. I think if you're like this is soda that tastes like celery then when you drink it you're like, ⁓ this is like a sweet vegetable Vegetable flavor, but if you're like, ⁓ this is like a ginger ale Cousin a cousin of ginger ale then you think of it different and you're like, ⁓ this is delicious now Okay, since we are on this topic I'm gonna mine is relevant here and we can continue this conversation over what I brought, okay? ⁓ I didn't bring gifts. No, we didn't tell you to. OK, so I don't have a don't have a crutch this time, but I wanted to bring so so. And Liz, you know, we've made a lot of soda flavors and things together over the years. I bought a soda that was one of my favorites that I had made recently. I bought something for us to try. Ooh, look at those Dixie cups. So I brought a lemon olive soda. Oh, olive soda. Okay. And I brought some seltzer for us to try. Wow, this is so exciting. And I even brought a little spoon to stir it. I expect nothing less from you, honestly. And I a little wooden spoon, but we can use the back of it. What's the difference between a soda and a shrub? So a shrub, want to... It's It's usually vinegar, and it's fermenting, and it's got a little bit more of this acid here. So this is really just inspired by, and this is another dish of mine. My uncle's moved to Madrid, so I go to Spain. So this is a soda that I've encountered just very of and so I wanted to explore and I always have to keep my brines because you know I'm a pickler and so I have olive brine always in the in the fridge so I thought we should try it. Let's do it. ⁓ I'm excited. I am. I am. It kind of tastes like Amaro-y. Like it could be like a digestif. kind of savory digestif. That's, Yeah, what do think? Talk to me about where the source of the lemon is. So it's both lemon juice and lemon peel. taste the lemon peel because it's super floral. I had no recipe. I just played. So one of my favorite things to do is make a pickle soda just with pickle brine. It's really nice. Have you made the viral pickle lemonade? Gatorade? Lemonade? Gatorade. I have not. kind of stay away from some of the... You don't strike me as a viral recipe. But basically, yeah, I just... figured I had something that gave me the feeling of this and I figured it just would be... know, it just makes me want to drink it on one of those beautiful days sitting outside somewhere, you know, just relaxing, not a care in the world. You know? That's what it makes me think of. You know? Just feeling good. So the soda though, will say, thinking about... Dr. Brown's, I've been very inspired, so I like to always be playful and think of new soda creations and soda flavors. And this was one, thinking about bringing in these Sephardic elements to your Mizrahi elements, or these non-Eastern European ones to your deli. I always think about what would the next generation of Dr. Brown's sodas be, and how can we continue to be playful and also resourceful with the things we have left over, which is, I often have lemon and lemon peels, and I often have brines as well. And so to me, I actually thought this was refreshing. ⁓ It sounds like it maybe didn't hit for you. I feel I don't love the olive brine that you specifically used. Like I don't love that olive brine. So I think I could see I like the olive lemon combo, but this particular olive brine I don't love it. I and I don't even I don't know exactly what it is, but I think I would like to try it again with a different type of olive brine. That's where I'm at. Okay. I can't drink pickle brine. So that's just like my thing. I think that to your point, some of those like more briny or vinegary notes like could play really well on a soda because I love to use like pomegranate molasses and that's like a very, I don't know. I feel like those flavors do complement each other and I would love to see a new cell or like a new appreciation for celery soda because I see a lot of content now about ginger ale and how people like joke. They're like, ⁓ if I'm drinking ginger ale, I'm like healthy. And I'm like, well, you can drink celery and be healthy. I tell everybody at work, I'm like, hungover, drink that. And I can't believe we both had soda highlights. Folks, we hope that you will ask us your questions. Send emails ⁓ to podcast at gefilteria.com or you can DM us on Instagram, gefilteria, or the best way to reach us with your questions is to fill out the form in this episode description. This show was produced by Felicia Reich, who, it's true, is from Florida. Thank you to Heed Media, an independent media nonprofit producing original web series, podcasts, and live events that showcase the best of today's subversive Jewish culture. Check out their membership if you want to support independent Jewish media now. 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