Latest / Shouty Brain / #12: Sarahtonin Diaries
Transcript
- Trevor Holland: In a neurotypical world. Hope you're doing well this week. I'm doing fantastically well. Thank you very much for asking. This week I'm joined by a very special guest by the name of Sarah, who goes by serotonin diaries on Instagram. She is late diagnosed, ADHD at the age of 33. She hails from Sydney, Australia, and she's currently going through an autism diagnosis journey as well. Sarah was a fantastic guest, had such a good laugh with her. She's now one of my BFFs, it turns out. really, really good conversation. We talked Talk about ADHD, we talk about medications, trials and tribulations of choosing to be medicated versus choosing to raw dog ADHD. Talk about all sorts of things. It's a rambling, meandering, chaotic, hilarious conversation from start to finish. Just a kind of chat that I love to have. If you enjoy this podcast, please do like, subscribe, and interact with it. As always, the podcast is in audio and video formats. So whichever platform you prefer, please subscribe and follow. The podcast really appreciate your interaction on there. And please go to shoutybrain.com for links to my social media, my substack blog, my red bubble shop, YouTube channel, all sorts of pits and pieces. And I would also recommend that you follow Sarah on Instagram as well, who, as I said, is Sarah Tonin underscore diaries. Very, very interesting content to be had there. Okay, so Without further ado, please enjoy Serotonin Diaries. Welcome, sir, to Salty Brain. Hi. How's it going? Sarah: Hello, thank you for having me, hello. Good, how are you? I apologize in advance if my brain stops working. My brain stopped working about six hours ago at 2 p.m. my time, so. Trevor Holland: Yes. So what time is it now? So for for the record, for those listening, it is currently twenty past ten in the morning where I am aware, is it? What is it like twenty past? Sarah: and it is 7.18 PM in Australia. Or Sydney. Trevor Holland: and you been working today? Sarah: No, I had a day off, which was nice. Yeah. Trevor Holland: So I I I recorded a few episodes w after work. I finished work at seven in the evening. And it's not it's not the most intense job ever. But I realised I can't I can't record after work. I I am fucked by then. And I thought, Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: I can do it, of course I can do it, 'cause it's two separate things. I can separate my work life and then switch off my work laptop, turn on my personal laptops, do a recording. I can switch from that thing to that thing, no problem. Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: And then I and then I watched those episodes back and I shit, I cannot record after work. I I I was just lucky that the two people I recorded with did so much of the heavy lifting in terms of the conversation. Because I was like I'm supposed to be a host here and I'm just I'm just the way I'm just sitting there staring for twenty minutes wait l while they're talking, shit, no, I can't do that. I need to have a little bit in my a little bit in the tank, I've realized. so yeah, thanks for joining me, sir. Really appreciate it. Sarah: No worries. Trevor Holland: as as as is the case with most of the people that I have on the show, I end up just connecting on Instagram most of the time. Where I Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: I'll s I'll s I'll I like the cut of people's jib. I'll follow people and I think, Yeah, I like I like the way you talk about your story, I like the way you explain your situation. Yeah, I wanna get you on. I think that's what it happened. I just sent you a DM, didn't I? And I said, You wanna come on? Sarah: Yeah, you just slid in, sent in my DMs and you're like, hey, I really like your stroke. No, you said something a little lines of like, you have a story to share. Do want to be on the podcast? And I was like, Trevor Holland: You don't like yeah, exactly. Sarah: yes, I do. And now that I'm here, I'm like, my gosh, okay, this is the nerves. But yeah, no, it's good. I'm excited. Trevor Holland: I re I really liked how how raw and honest you were when it came to explaining your your journey to being diagnosed with ADHD at thirty three, am I correct? Sarah: 33 the day before I turned 33. Yeah Trevor Holland: it was quite an emotional post where you told your story and understandably so, and that was a you know, a s a series of emotions that a lot of us go through. How long ago was that, your diagnosis? Sarah: 18 months ago. So last March. So March 2025. Yes. Trevor Holland: So what led you to thinking you might have ADHD to then seeking out a diagnosis of it? Sarah: Okay, so basically my entire life since I was a kid, I always like was, you know, the odd one out, like the black sheep of the family I felt. But I always, you know, was the high achiever as well. Like my parents never had an issue with it with me or I was never a naughty kid. I always wanted to like follow the rules or that sort of stuff. And then, you know, I had friends, but I never had like a best friend, if that makes sense. I never felt, you know, seen. was never anyone's first choice. And even that, feel like still even as an adult. And then had my first baby, Harrison, who's just turned five. And pregnancy was like, you know, normal. was... I felt like it was hard being pregnant and things were changing but I just thought that was a part of it right? And then Harry was born and he was actually born in the second lockdown in 2021 so like a week no like three days into it actually and it was when lockdown was only supposed to be like two weeks. Trevor Holland: Mm. Sarah: two weeks and ended up being four months. And so entering motherhood for the first time ever, my husband, Jeremy, actually was like stood down from his job at the time. So it was just us two, was a little newborn. And I like, you I've worked with babies in early childhood and like that age group for 15 years, right? So I thought I knew what I was doing. Like I had that, I've always had that maternal instinct and I loved him from the moment I got him, you know, he was our rainbow baby, miracle. And so I thought, you know, it was just the first four months of motherhood, right? It was really hard. I was really struggling mentally. And I remember my husband even said like, do you think you have postpartum depression? And I was like, no, like I don't feel depressed. Like, I just feel like I've got so many tabs open and I don't know what to do first. And I'm struggling with that. And then I said, it's just locked out. We have no support, blah, blah, Anyway, picnic day happened, which was like in Australia where like they allowed people to meet at a park or whatever. So then I started seeing friends and two or three of my girlfriends actually had babies at the same time. So I was like, I can lean on them. My community was growing, all that sort of stuff. But then it just became harder because life opened up and I had to actually like manage a baby and figure out how to do it. and I would watch all of my friends just princess breathe through it. They just kind of had their shit together. Like, and I was the mom that was just like forgetting stuff or I didn't want to go. I wanted to see my friends, but I was so overwhelmed. Like I'd cry in the car and then just like rub it all off and be like, you've got this. Like you need to socialize. It's good for you. It's good for Harrison, blah, blah, and I kind of just pushed through for the first two years of his life basically. And then I fell pregnant with my second and then and so was born and then it just became even harder. And then I remember I was sitting, I didn't know what it was. I just was like, it's just me. Like I've always struggled with this sort of stuff, but it just like a little, the notch was just kept going up and up and up. And then I was sitting on TikTok one day. Do you remember those like put a finger down things? Trevor Holland: Yeah, yeah. Sarah: Yeah. and I like had done the mum ones, you know, the mum version stuff. And then one just like popped up on my for you page and it was about ADHD and never thought about it. Like in my mind, ADHD was, know, like the naughty little boy in primary school that was just bouncing off the walls. Not the little girl that was just internalizing everything, getting marks, but just like was spinging on the chair or whatever. Anyway, I sat there and I was like, another put a finger down one, like whatever. I remember I was breastfeeding like still in bed and I was like sitting doing it and I got one two three what all ten and I'm like nah Just everyone has that, that's just motherhood. Like I'm just struggling, like whatever. And then because I clicked like, and I think I commented being like, ha ha ha, I feel seen right now. It like changed my algorithm. Trevor Holland: Right. Right. Sarah: So then I just kept getting influences of posting about ADHD journeys and like medication and like just stories and stuff. And then I just kind of opened my eyes up to it a lot more. Started. reading articles about ADHD in women and like the difference of like a little boy in comparison to a 31, 32 year old woman right. I was like comparing motherhood to ADHD and all this sort of stuff and then that took me down like the online tests. like doing it free myself. And then the markers were like, yup, right up there. you're, I remember one of them said something along the lines of like high masking ADHD. And I was like, what does that mean? Like, I don't know what that means. Like, what does that mean? Google it. And I was like, okay. It wasn't until I started like really, it was affecting my like day to day where I was like, I think I actually have ADHD. Like. It just makes sense if I do. And I went, yeah, and got like the diagnosis, which was like, I went in kind of being like, I think I have it, but I also want to go in with like child trauma sort of therapy sort of stuff. Cause I was like, maybe I don't know ADHD and maybe it's just, you know, the way I was raised or whatever. And it's like trauma, whatever. And so I kind of put ADHD on the back. of the therapy stuff. And then the more I kind of opened up to it, was like, yeah, nah, sorry, yeah, nah, you know what that means, right? Any listeners out there, yeah, nah, means yes in Australian, like Trevor Holland: yeah, yeah, that's fine. Sarah: you can't just anyone else who doesn't know that. So I was like, yeah, nah, like this, Trevor Holland: Uh-huh. Sarah: I definitely have ADHD. And yeah, I got the diagnosis and then it all just kind of made sense. Like I remember sitting there and... she told me, like my psychologist, I just like was weeping and I was like, now what? Like, Trevor Holland: Yeah. Sarah: now what do I do, right? And then it's really taken me about a year and a half to be okay with it. And like, I spent the last like, yeah, 18 months just like, know, grieving as we all do, like grieving the life that we had and stuff and yeah, like. really opening myself up to it which has been wild and I feel like I remember there was probably like yeah six months ago six eight months ago my husband was like you just seem more ADHD than ever and I was like because I'm completely unmasked like all of the you know everything has come out so much more because I'm I'm aware of it which we I know we all do but it's just interesting to think about like childhood and young adults here compared to now, it was always there. But I just was so high masking that and like the assimilation and all that sort of stuff was all, which is also a whole nother track, but yeah, Trevor Holland: Yeah. Sarah: it just, yeah, that's pretty much sums that up. Trevor Holland: You kind of skirted over it, but what what was the how how how easy is it to get assessed in Australia? Sarah: So I went to my GP and she referred me to a psychologist and I emailed and I didn't hear back from them. And so I was like waiting for like three to four months and I was like, this is how it's going to take, my gosh, like wow. I know it's easy to get in to see a psychologist. It's really hard to get into a psychiatrist. But didn't hear back. So I was like, you know what? I'm going to just look up stuff myself. One of my girlfriends was going to the same place. So then I just contacted them and then I got in pretty quickly. But the actual process itself took about two to three months. Yeah, sorry. But I felt like that was forever. I, we did like the therapy based stuff. We also did like all the screeners and I did the screeners like on the first day. and then she gave like, we did like two or three sessions to actually go through all of the screeners. Cause like, obviously I was like, yeah, but like I would click like extremely high or it's like never, but I wanted to explain it more. Like it wasn't just like a black and white thing. I'd be like, Trevor Holland: Yeah. Sarah: well, I do this and like, you know, she was like, uh-huh. So we did like two or three sessions for that. And then I don't know if that over there, you guys have this thing called, we have it called a Tova test. Trevor Holland: not heard of it. But that doesn't mean we don't have it. Sarah: So basically, yeah, I know a lot of people that I've spoken to are like, no, we just did the screeners and that was it. But basically this is kind of like another level up. So if you just do this test without any of the other stuff. it like my test basically would have come up as your neurotypical. So basically what it is, it's like imagine like a little screen, like a computer screen, and there's a line in the middle, right? And there's Trevor Holland: Mm. Sarah: a dot here, and then they give you like a little buzzer. And so the test went for 22 minutes. So every time on the underneath, I think, every time a dot would appear, you had to press the buzzer. Obviously, the test is about like you focusing and being very like hypervigilant, all that sort of stuff. Trevor Holland: I have that when I got when I when I Sarah: So for somewhat... Trevor Holland: got my eyes tested I had that test. Can I No, but Sarah: really? For 22 minutes? Trevor Holland: it just sounds like an eye it sounds like an eye test that I had where it's a press a thing every time you see the dot. Anyway Okay Sarah: I think they do that, yeah. Let's just go down that track. But no, so she was like, okay, the test goes through 22 minutes and I just hyper fixated on this thing. Cause I was like, I need to get every single dot. So I sat there, like just zoned in. I Trevor Holland: Yeah. Sarah: did not move. I basically didn't blink. I didn't like make a sound. just like, I just froze. and went so high masking and just like literally just associated my entire being to just look at this dot. And I pressed this dot 132 times across 22 minutes. Those numbers will be trauma for me because as soon as it ended, my psychologist was like, how are you feeling? and I just like broke. I started shaking, I started stimming, like just within that moment, she was like, yeah, dick, dick, dick. Basically my brain went, you need to get this right. You need to get all of them. So from without all the other screeners and all of the stuff that I'd spoken to her previously, she wanted to see how... like my reaction time was if I was going to be completely distracted and not focused at all or if I was going to go down the route of masking and if I actually like and how my body would respond to after the test was done. It broke my brain. Trevor Holland: Right. Wow. I thought you I thought I had a feeling what you were gonna say was they put they they sit you down and make you re concentrate really hard on the dot while in the in the background they set fire to the room and they wanna see how long it takes you to notice. Sarah: To be honest, I honestly, funny you say that, once the test was done, I thought there was a clock up above her. And the entire time I was like, don't look at the clock, don't look at the clock, don't look at the clock. But once the test was done and I came to and like I calmed my body down and self regulated, I looked up and it was just like a decoration, like plate thing. But it was so funny how my brain was like honed in on this circle. But everything, like the rest of the tabs were like, don't look at her, don't look at the clock, don't don't move. Like I think I'm like moved my leg once and I'm like, did I miss like the circle? Like that. Yeah, it was interesting to see how, I don't know if they use it on all like diagnosis journeys with other people, but I think she wanted to see how, because she knows how high I mask and how sometimes like my hyperfixations can be really like I need to, I'm also a perfectionist as well. So she wanted to see how that test would work with my brain. but wouldn't recommend it. Wasn't fun. Trevor Holland: I w I would have well I I I I don't I don't I would have overthought it, I think, if I'd have been given that test as part of an ADHD diagnosis assessment. I think I would have overthought it and thought, Well, they want me to be they want to see if I get distracted doing this. So if I do too well on it, they're gonna tell me I haven't got ADHD. so if I Sarah: That's what was going through my brain too. I was like, I walked out being like, I don't have it. I got every single one right. Like I went, no, I don't have it. Trevor Holland: But I know what you mean. You that that's such a misconception as well. and it's one that will still confound me occasionally. It's it's not about not being able to concentrate, it's about not always being able to concentrate. It's about this is not being able to focus on certain things. In certain situations, you can't focus for shit. But if the conditions are right or it's something that's particularly important to you or something that is very engaging or interesting to you, you will concentrate on it harder than anyone has ever concentrated on anything. And Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: I feel sorry for the person who d tries to distract you from that thing. The person who will drag you out of that thing to ask you a really fucking stupid question. Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: Good luck to that person because because trying to drag so Sarah: Yeah, good luck to them. There will be a hole in the wall. Trevor Holland: drag someone out of a hyperfocus is honestly like trying to wake up from a coma. It's it's like if you try and drag them out of it. It's like the reaction of of people in the matrix when they get unplugged from the matrix and they're like and then they throw up and then there's a don't know where they are. It's like y that's what it's like. Don't try and unplug me from the matrix because I'm so in Sarah: It is. Yeah. Trevor Holland: the matrix right now. Try and drag me out of it and I will Attack you. Sarah: Even like I find if I'm on like a rant, like I'm very hyper verbal, like Trevor Holland: huh. Sarah: which I'm like still learning this actually a thing. If I'm on like a tangent and someone interrupts that, I'm like, no, just don't like don't let me speak because my if I don't get it out, it's gone forever. Trevor Holland: It's gone forever. Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: It doesn't help when it's me because I I've got quite a sometimes quite a slow way of speaking. And I don't do it on purpose, but I put a lot of dramatic pauses in to sentences. Sarah: Mm. Trevor Holland: Lo largely because I'm trying to kind of formulate the sentence in my head and I'm not just free flowing. I'm just kind Sarah: Yeah, I got that. Trevor Holland: of thinking, right, I need to formulate the rest of this sentence. So I'll I'll I'll say something. The next word is seconds away. But then the person will think, he's finished what he's saying, so I'm gonna talk now. And I'm like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, hang on. I hadn't stopped. Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: And it's like, Well, you hadn't said anything for ages. So no. I was in mid sentence. So okay, well what were you gonna say? I don't know. It's gone now. Sarah: It's like you interrupted me. Yeah, it's going forever. I know, I get that. Trevor Holland: But then I'll interrupt them all the time. Like I try r I'm really conscious of interrupting people because I make such a fuss when people interrupt me. I'm like, well I can't interrupt them, but then it will just happen. It because the thought is there, you need to get it out before it's gone, regardless of whether someone else is talking at the time. Right? Right, so that was that was one of the Sarah: Yeah, I apologise if I do that today. Trevor Holland: tests, the dot test, and then So When you were given the news you have ADHD, were you expecting at that point were you expecting to be told you had it? Sarah: Yes, I went into it being I was kind of like gas siding myself leading up to it right being like you don't have it because it was easier to find out that I did have it than didn't have it right and even like my brother like love him to pieces he's also on the spectrum 100 % but just undiagnosed and he's one of those people that he's like he doesn't need the diagnosis to help him, right? Whereas I was like, I've been labeled so many negative things across my entire life that I need this to be like. this is who I am. Do you know what mean? And like, I need to relearn how to love myself in that way. So yeah, it was easier for me to find out I had it than not have it. So I was gaslighting myself leading up to it being like, you don't have it. You're normal. Like, you're just weird. You're just, you know, it's the personality trait. Everyone says it's a personality trait. So like, let's just lean in on that. yeah, when I didn't expect, I'm a very emotional person, obviously, but I didn't expect to feel it the way I did. It was just like someone just like knocked on the door and was like, here's your life, like in a piece of paper, like, and now. And what I, don't know what it's like over in the UK, but the support that I've had from my psychologist, like she saved my life, which I really love. Like, and she, I've never seen a psychologist before as well. So the fact that we've connected like this, she has saved my life. So yeah, like the support after the diagnosis was like, okay, what do you want? Like, are we going to go down medication route or are we just going to do therapy and like give you tools and a little toolkit that you can use? And I was like, I don't want to do meds yet. I need to understand my brain first and like yeah, and people always were like When you find out you're gonna mourn your life and I was like, what do you mean? Like I'm just gonna get on with it Like I'll figure Trevor Holland: Mm. Sarah: it out like do you know me and then the moment that I found out it was like I just started peeling away all those layers and it was like every day I'd have like a aha wow wow what like that moments right I Trevor Holland: Yeah. Sarah: still have them now so but they kind of stopped for a while and then it was like I was yeah they stopped I mourned I became okay with it and then things just went adding up again so because yeah I'm going down like a autistic diagnosis too so Yes. Trevor Holland: Yeah, we'll talk about that in a second. What I'm interested in is something I I picked up and I mentioned it just before we started recording. On on your feed you were going through the start of a a medication journey. So you were diagnosed about eighteen months ago. but take me through the lead up to to to getting medication for the first time and and then where you are now on that journey. Sarah: So yeah, like I said, I wasn't against medication. just, I wanted to understand this first before like going down and I wanted to like also understand the line really clearly between like my childhood stuff. and the ADHD right and now I can see a clear line and how they mix together right and that's also come with a lot of therapy as well and I wanted to learn how to like self-regulate for my kids and like be the better mom, better wife, better friend, better daughter, all that sort of stuff before I just took the medication because I didn't want to just take meds to as a quick fix or whatever because I needed to learn who I was. It wasn't until probably a year after it so probably like that Feb-March this year. I was like I've got the tools and I've got the toolkit but I'm still struggling. I feel like I'm even deeper than what I was before. So yeah, I got like the blood test done, the ECGs done, all the stuff to make sure that I was obviously healthy enough to do it. And in typical ADHD fashion, it took me five months to actually go and get my script. So Trevor Holland: Mm-hmm. Sarah: that was about what, three weeks ago now? So I got my script for Vyvanse, which is the... slow release which is across... do you guys have vibans over there? Trevor Holland: Yeah, I think we do. I think we do, yeah. Sarah: Yeah, so which I was put on because I was doing, so I do like really long days at work, I'm up early with the kids and then I was doing uni at the time back in Feb. So I was doing really really long days so we thought taking a long dose even now being on long shifts would help. Yeah, talk it for the first time literally two weeks ago today. two weeks ago today, three weeks ago, I'm not sure. And I took it first time at home by myself, because I didn't want to be at work, I didn't know what it was going to do to me. like it just, yeah, it was like a night day kind of thing when it kicked in. And like the voices went away and like the inner dialogue just kind of stopped. And I told you about before, like, you know, the voice in my head that like, okay, if I, what am I going to say tonight? What am I going to, how am I going to show up? I was like, they just disappeared. And that was frightening for me. And then the second day, I kind of forgot that I was on the meds. And I just really, I was doing work for like three hours straight. Didn't eat, didn't go to the toilet. And I was so hyper fixated. I was like, wow, okay. Like I didn't move my body. And then, The third day went to work and that was a whole nother experience, which I'll get to down the whole autistic stuff. then on the Thursday, I was at home in the afternoon and I was just craving like a warm drink. So I had a tea and I didn't realize that it was 100 % caffeinated. which I know is, your face says it all. And within 20 minutes, I was having like this massive come down. And I was at like the eight hour mark. My heart rate skyrocketed to 98. Like I had the shakes. I literally was like, I felt like I was gonna faint. Yeah, like my muscles were tightening and spasming. So like all of the side effects of the meds were just like skyrocketed, right? and I was out, like was in bed basically for the next four days. I just my, I think my nervous system because I'm so burnt out, I think Trevor Holland: Mm. Sarah: my nervous system was like yeah nah like you're not sweet like and it just had a really bad chemical reaction I'm assuming and I've been petrified to touch it so I haven't touched it since. but I have noticed even from those four days of being on it, those next few days when I hadn't touched it, I felt like even more ADHD than ever. Like that felt like, because I had quiet for a few days and it was, my brain didn't even get used to it. My body was still, you know, a bit jittery and stuff. But yeah, those, for the last week I felt even louder. So I am wanting, I'm wanting to change, which I'm going to see my psychiatrist in the next like two, three weeks, but yeah, I want to change to like fast release on a shorter dose. So I can just like take it when I need to instead of like the full effect and just trial it. But I now know what they do and how it affects my brain. So I am intrigued. just think I need to get the right dose and the right meds. Trevor Holland: Yeah. And it's it's dangerous territory w what what I'm about what I'm treading on here because I I don't want it to turn Sarah: Mm. Trevor Holland: into me having a medical opinion on anything 'cause I'm not qualified to have it. But Sarah: No, that's fine. Yeah, yeah. Trevor Holland: but I'm trying to remember now what it was like for me in terms of side effects. if I remember rightly, I don't think I really had too many. And but I think it's as with anything, you y y you you you're adjusting to it. So your body and your brain are adjusting to it. So there are gonna be odd feelings initially that kind of sort themselves out in a lot of cases. But I mean, I think for me, every now and then I'll I'll I'll have caffeine. Every now and then when I'm desperately tired and I just need just a little bit of a pep just from j Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: just for a bit. But generally I will stay well away from caffeine of any description because it Sarah: Mm. Trevor Holland: just does not interact ple in a pleasant way. Because I mean what happens with me, if I if I have caffeine I will be jittery. I won't be focused, I'll be jittery, and then I'll f fall then Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: I'll then I'll go to sleep. it it doesn't help. So I I yeah, I would I would say for me the caffeine is more of a problem than medication but yeah I mean if you had you Sarah: medication 100 percent. Trevor Holland: you've had a flavor now of of of what it can do and exactly Sarah: Hmm. Trevor Holland: that's exactly what happened to me you kind of forget that you're taking it and before you before you even realise what's happening you're in the middle of being more level headed and and focused. You Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: you don't feel it happening you just feel it it has happened already. It's it's it's Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: like shit I paid all my bills this month Ha ha ha. Sarah: laundry is all folded and put away. Yeah. Trevor Holland: Yeah. It's mad. But yeah, it it is a balancing act. There there there are it does take time, sometimes months to find the the right version of it and the right dosage of it. But you know, I'm fift I'm I'm I'm basically fifteen years down the line now. And I was just saying to you before we started that I cannot imagine my life now. And I know medication's not for everyone, but for me I can't imagine my life without it because what what it did for me was w was just kind of balance the books a little bit for me. I i i Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: it it put me on a level not a level playing field certainly, but it it gave me a chance to experience life in a slightly more productive way. To because my my impulsivity, my decision making abilities, those things were so pr profoundly affected by having ADHD that Sarah: Yeah, it feels. Trevor Holland: You know, I was I was looking at the way I was living my life. My hyperactivity was mostly internal. I I was d my I was diagnosed with inattentive type ADHD anyway, so it wasn't so much the hyperactivity. Sarah: Mm-hmm. Trevor Holland: but the impulsivity, just the the the the short sightedness, the inst the instant gratification, the the how bad I was with money, how bad I was with jobs and Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: relationships. On one hand, I had this fantastic imagination and this creative kind of idea generation. I could just generate ideas and it was great because I was like, this is the thing I'm gonna do and I'm gonna do it now, and then you put Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: all your efforts into it for five minutes, and you can't be asked anymore. But that was great, but what came with it was just so destructive that I look at myself now at 42, nearly forty-three, I'm not setting the world alight in terms of my career, but of I've had the same job for eight years and well I haven't. I've been promoted a couple of times. I've been working for the same company for eight years. Sarah: company, yeah. Trevor Holland: And that is something for neuro many neurotypical people would think, yeah, so what? But you have to be honest. Sarah: That's like normal, right? Yeah. Trevor Holland: I never lasted more than about one year before until I completely sabotaged my job by either quitting or Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: or or performing so badly I got fired. Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: And the same with relationships. I've been married for for eight years. I've been in that relationship for for t for over ten. Again, Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: that's something that's normal for a lot of people. But I was I was going through girlfriends like I was going through underpants before. Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: and it's because yeah, i it's just you can't settle sorry, you can't settle on any one Sarah: That's right. Trevor Holland: thing. You have to just move around all the time. So Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: And I I've lived in the same house for ten years and I've paid my rent on time every fucking month for ten years. These Sarah: Yeah, that's so good. Trevor Holland: are things that just would my God, stop hitting the microphone. Sarah: Ha ha! Trevor Holland: These are things that just could not have happened before. I could p quite Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: pot quite easily have ended up if I'd carried on down the same path I was on, unmedicated, undiagnosed, wouldn't have surprised me at all if I would have ended up homeless. and maybe even dead because I was I was drinking so much and being so irresponsible. Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: my life is just unrecognizable from what it was. I'm not saying that's gonna be your situation, but Sarah: I fucking hope so. And I think I got, I feel let down in myself that I didn't just go back to trying it like once my body had calmed down. But I think I'm just so petrified of it happening again, because I've got kids to look after, you know, Trevor Holland: Yeah. Sarah: you know, I'm a mum, so I'm like, what if it happens again? But yeah, I do everything you're saying, like that's my trajectory right now. Trevor Holland: Is it? Sarah: You know what mean? So I'm like, yeah. So I'm sitting here being like, yeah, that's me right now. Like I'm in the thick of it. So I'm like, that's also why I wanted to be on meds. So like, just, to show up as basically like the version of who I am without the messy mind. So I just like, I've, now that I've done it for a week, I'm like, I have to go back on. I just want to make sure that it's not affecting my body. If that makes sense. Yeah. Trevor Holland: Yeah, of course. I I I was worried that I was gonna end up being boring as well. because right yeah. Sarah: That's what I was. I'm so scared about losing that. And what I found as well, sorry I interrupted you. Trevor Holland: No, it's fine. Sarah: I noticed across those few days, I felt more sparky because Trevor Holland: Uh-huh. Sarah: I wasn't jumping and I wasn't like... I'm so I'm combined type, so I'm very hyperactive and my hyperactivity comes out through speaking and interrupting and hands and all that sort of stuff and the energy, right? But also my inattentiveness can be so destructive, like you said, that those few days where when the meds were really at its peak, I just felt like calm, but the spark was still there. And so like my husband was coming home and like I felt regulated. I wasn't needing to, you him coming home and just like unmasking and then being snappy and yelling or I wasn't, you know, overstimulated by the noises of the house and the kids talking to me while trying to cook dinner and the TV going on and my husband asking me a question or whatever it was. I was just a bit more regulated. Trevor Holland: Yeah. Sarah: but I didn't lose that spark and I was like, okay, I get it. So I do really want to try again. And I was actually thinking about taking it today and tomorrow, but I was like, no, no, I'm just so scared. But yeah, like I've got a little taste for it. So I know what it's like. So yeah, but again, that's the reason why I chose to go down this path because I was like, I've got the diagnosis, I've done all the work and the therapy, but it's not enough right now. Like it's not fixing it. what I mean? Because also my inattentiveness and everything that comes with ADHD is affecting how I'm actually managing my management. Does it make sense? Trevor Holland: Yeah. Sarah: Like I'm not able to put in the work because I'm forgetting how to do it. So yeah. Trevor Holland: that you've got you y you've got a neurodevelopmental disorder. You've got it. There's no amount of therapy's gonna change the way your brain's wired up. and it can Sarah: Yeah, exactly. Trevor Holland: help you to to strategize and it can help you but like you said. you it affects your ability to strategize and to manage things correctly. In it's like your you know, if you look like like I said, everyone c choose their own path and you can choose not to be medicated and it's and it's just as valid as people who choose to be medicated. But you know, for me, my personal take on on my own situation is w w I feel like I'd be intentionally giving myself a disadvantage by not taking medication. I'd be like I'm Sarah: Mm. Yeah. Trevor Holland: I'm ch I'm I'm choosing to continue wading through the mud when I could be walking on the s on the on the on the on the on on the level path next to it. Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: but yeah, I I get it. It it's it's rough, it's scary, but I'm glad I didn't turn out boring. But what what it what what I Sarah: I'm glad too. Trevor Holland: mean what it did do, i it meant that I had the same like you said, the same spark, but what it then allowed me to do was was aim it better. You know what I mean? I could aim at my energy in a slightly better Sarah: Yeah Trevor Holland: way. so rather than a scatter gun, I could f I was I became a sniper, you know. Sarah: Yeah, how good? Yeah, that's a really good analogy. I like that. Yeah. Trevor Holland: but one thing that happened to me, which happens to a lot of people, is you get diagnosed with ADHD, you start being medicated, you go through a journey of self discovery and you start to live your life in a more productive and steady way. And then you're like, Well, holy shit, I'm autistic as fuck. Sarah: Hahaha! Trevor Holland: because now now I've gone from the the ADHD was winning the argument. I've been autistic my whole life, I've also had ADHD my whole life, but the ADHD for one reason or another was the one that won the argument on most occasions. So even though right, so even though Sarah: was in control. Yeah. It's like, I'm the privacy. Trevor Holland: I'd show occasional kind of glimpses of it in in my in my wanting things to be the same every time. and r th the the kind of stimming and and watching the same movie or TV show hundreds of times because it comforted me and and always needing to eat my lunch Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: off the same plate every day bec because I it was my that was my lunch plate. If I couldn't if if I couldn't have Sarah: It was your thing to do. Yup. Trevor Holland: that then something was wrong with the world. You know, and when we go we'd go on holiday summer holidays to the same place every year. I'd have an itinerary in my head, we need to do this in this order, because this is what we did last time and this is the way it needs to be. So I had that stuff, Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: but I was much more spontaneous and stuff like that. So you take out my god, excuse me. You take away that impulsivity, or at least you dampen it, take the edge off it. Suddenly you're like, Well Everything has to be perfect. And if it isn't, then the world Sarah: You Trevor Holland: is coming to an end. Sarah: Yup. Trevor Holland: because all that stuff just comes to the surface suddenly and it's like all this time I was I was I was pedantic this whole time, you know? Because before I was like, whatever. But now I'm like, Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: no, not whatever, actually. It has to be like this. Sarah: I need everything to... has to be like this or I'm going to die. Yes. Trevor Holland: And, you know, my suddenly my my my sensory overload became so much more pronounced. So it's like I because Sarah: Ugh. Yeah. Trevor Holland: I was so distracted by everything all the time, I I was barely noticing the fact that there was so much going on I couldn't think. Because because my thoughts were already doing that for me. You know, I couldn't think about anything Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: else anyways. But now I'm aware of everything. I'm like, my God, sh sh shh shut up. I'm like it's just sh shut up. Everything's so loud and it so all this stuff started coming to the surface that I hadn't been aware of before and suddenly I'm like, Well fuck me. I'm autistic as well, probably. And that was a whole a whole long ass journey of getting to that you know, finding out I was autistic this year. but Sarah: wow, so that's new. Trevor Holland: yeah, it's new. I mean I thought it for a long time, but I got the Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: I got the the the nod, I got the validation in May. Sarah: Yeah, wow, that's like so fresh. Trevor Holland: Yeah, that's what started the podcast. I got diagnosed with autism at forty two Sarah: Yeah Trevor Holland: and I'm like, Well shit, I need to talk about this. Sarah: I need to talk about it. Yeah, yeah, that's so true. Yeah, because it's only recently, the last two months you've been doing this. Yeah, that makes so much sense. Trevor Holland: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. and I wanna talk to other people who've gone through similar things and f f find common ground and learn about it and Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: create create an environment for people to be able to talk about their lives without being judged. And that's all the all the stuff I want to do. But yeah, I I I thank you. I I realised, yeah, fucking hell, I'm o I am autistic and and as you s described when you got your ADHD diagnosis, suddenly you were far more o ADHD suddenly. I became profoundly more autistic the second I was told I had autism. Well no, it's because suddenly Sarah: god, good luck to me. Trevor Holland: suddenly the suddenly I was no longer having to try not to be. Sarah: Yeah, which I love. Trevor Holland: at I understood the reason why I felt the way I felt. I understood the reason Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: why things made me feel the way they made me feel. I understood why I reacted in certain ways to certain things and if it Why do I shut down in these situations? it's because I'm overwhelmed, I'm overstimulated. What do I need to do? I need to remove myself from that. I need to give myself a break. I need to shut myself into a dark room. I need to put myself into basically a sensory deprivation tank in order to reset myself. I don't feel like socializing. Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: Well, I'm not going to. does that make you antisocial? No, it makes me Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: someone who's autistic and doesn't want to socialize because it's very tiring for me. And you know It's realizing all that and and and y it almost like you lean into it because you're like, Well fuck, this is what I am, this is what I'm gonna be. I don't need to pretend to be anything else, I don't need to apologize for it. So you just it's like just taking all your clothes off and standing in the rain and saying, I'm here, fuck you. And it's Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: so that's what I became. But on this subject, I understand you're going through something similar now. Sarah: a little bit. When I get my diagnosis, I'm gonna go sit naked out in the rain and be like, Trevor Holland: Ha ha ha. Sarah: here I am. Yeah, no, sorry. Diagnose ADHD. And then yeah, that first year was all about, you know, figuring out who I was and unmasking and just tapping into it. And things just, I went into it, like the ADHD diagnosis, being like, okay, this is... ADHD and this is like just how I show up in friendships and this is how I socialize and this is this everyone does this you know like these are the things I struggled with so I thought they were just like me right anyway and it wasn't until yeah the beginning of the year that I think I completely I've started understanding the ADHD side of my brain and what that is that I started actually recognizing and noticing things that I was like, that doesn't add up like that. That's not ADHD. So that I would look up like, is, for example, I didn't realize I've been doing it my entire life, but I've been thinking back to friends. So I have assimilated into these people my entire life, but I didn't realise that's what I was doing. So for example, I'd have friends in like uni or like school and stuff and they'd always be like, why are you copying me? Why are you mimicking me? Why are you posing like me? Why are you talking like me? Why are you like now dressing like me? Like, why are you doing all these things? Like it's annoying and it's weird. And I was like, but I'm not meaning to be. I just, I think you're cool, I wanna be friends with you. I thought that was how you build a friendship, right? In my mind I was like, if I do the same thing as her, we're gonna be friends forever. Do you know what I mean? It makes no sense in my brain, but that's just what I thought. Anyway, because yeah, you'd probably done the same thing. But in Trevor Holland: Makes perfect sense. Sarah: my mind I was like, I would have conversations in my head before meeting friends that I've known for years. just I'd have a script of like, how are you going? How are the kids? But I'd sit there days in advance thinking up all of this stuff. not to realize that that's not actually ADHD. Like then even my psychologist, like the second time we hung out, hung out, that's weird, we Trevor Holland: Yeah. Sarah: had a session together, she was like, have any like sensory issues? And I know there's like a debate within the neurodivergent like medical industry of whether sensory is just autistic or if it actually bleeds into ADHD as well. But It's weird ever since I've unmasked my ADHD. I remember she sat there and I was like, I'm not sensory at all. I have no sensory issues. Like not one. I can't think of anything. And I am so sensitive to my sensory input is like, it's actually wild that so many things affect me to every sense. And so yeah, I've started putting all the pieces together and Then I started doing again, the online tests and watching autistic videos and like learning more about like having both. And then I started like dropping it to my psychologist. And at first she didn't really say anything and she kind of just skim over it, right? And then it wasn't until like two sessions ago, she was like, so women who have autism and ADHD. And I was like, wait. Wait, what? What? What do mean? And she's like, well... I think that we should be going down this route now." And I was like, what do you mean? She's like, well, you've been talking about it a lot. So I want to know why you're talking about it. And so I listed all the things, I pulled my notes out and I was like, well, I think I have autism because I'm blah, blah, blah. And then yeah, did the screeners and got the screeners test back. And I did three screeners and I got in total 99.97 percentile compared to like the average of not being autistic. Trevor Holland: Right. Sarah: So yeah, so we're going down the route but again I'm in that position where I'm like if I'm not autistic then what the fuck is wrong with me? Do you know what mean? Trevor Holland: you are. Sarah: Like, like I have to be. Like... Trevor Holland: yeah, yeah. So what's next then? What happens now? What do you have to do? Do you have to just wait for an appointment? Sarah: so, so I'm just waiting for her to... So she's done her like assessment, not assessment, she's done her like training. So now I'm just waiting for that to all officially go through. So hopefully I'll start that assessment sometime this year. Yeah. Trevor Holland: Mm. Sarah: I'm not sure what it looks like to be honest. I don't know Trevor Holland: Uh-huh. Sarah: whether it's just going to be... Again, I've known her for a year and a half, so she knows me pretty well. Like my deepest darker secrets sort of stuff. I feel like she's known, but she needed for me to get to this place before she started like peeling away at the layers. Trevor Holland: Well it's it's an it's a very in depth interview about your entire life. It about Sarah: wonderful. Trevor Holland: your For me Sarah: Great. Trevor Holland: I'm not sure how it works in the Southern Hemisphere, but Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: for us it was very much a very long winded Well, i actually the actual assessment is that, but prior to that there are lots of long forms to fill in where you have to sorta tell your life story in in in written form. And then s someone close to you has to do the same thing, whether that's your partner, Sarah: Mm. Trevor Holland: but ideally they want someone who knew you as a child. I was Sarah: as a child. Trevor Holland: gonna ask my mum, but she doesn't remember shit about anything, so you can ask her to do anything. I've got my Sarah: Yeah, my parents are in denial about it. Yeah. Trevor Holland: I ended up getting my wife So yeah, the the assessment itself that they speak to you about all of your experiences and they speak to someone close to you. I chose my wife and my sister because I thought my wife knows me better than anyone does now. My sister knows me better than anyone did when I was a kid. and Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: they asked a load of questions about what what was socialization like, you know, d d did I prefer to did I play with groups of people, did I prefer to play on my own? Did I what d did I imagine situations? Could I like do role playing kind of games when I was a kid or did I find it hard to imagine stuff and Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: lots and lots of very v boring stuff but it's draining because you're having to really get into your feelings. Especially like Sarah: Hmm. Trevor Holland: the way I was, because I I was I s my assessment was a long time coming for me. and I was determined to be heard this time because it was my third assessment. So I don't wanna Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: go into it too much because I've gone into it in previous episodes, but had one assessment a long time ago They t told me I wasn't autistic because they were ignorant. about autism still at that stage where they Sarah: Mm. Mm. Trevor Holland: thought you can't be autistic if you are socially engaged with people, if you if Sarah: Of course. Trevor Holland: you can do eye contact, if you can make a joke, if you're self aware, if you're introspective, if you're this, that, that, you can't be autistic if you're these these things 'cause Sarah: Mm. Trevor Holland: they they hadn't seemingly heard about the concept of of assimilation and masking and these things that we know about now. I'm not sure but they didn't know about them because I had a s a second assessment about three years ago which was done virtually Online and they said it was inconclusive because although I was showing a lot of traits of autism, they couldn't quantify the extent to which those things affected Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: my life. And so they thought this person would benefit from a face-to-face assessment. So I had the face-to-face assessment that this year, in which he looked through the assessment notes from the second assessment saying Right, so you you spent an hour explaining to these people the effect that this stuff had on your life and you're very clear on the fact that it affects you profoundly. But and they've sent you to me because they couldn't see how it affects you. And so that's basically yes. Sarah: and two years later, mental. Trevor Holland: And then I got the I got the letter saying, well, yes, quite clearly you are autistic, and quite Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: clearly it has a major impact on your life. And obviously I cried when I read that. Because Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: finally I'm not talking into the ether. I'm not screaming into the ether. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Trevor Holland: And someone who is qualified to say it has said has basically given me a pat on the back and said, Yes, Trev, your life has been fucking hard, hasn't it? God Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: bless ya. And you know, anyway, what was what was the p the point of what I was saying? Sarah: I love how you were like, can I also just say you're like, I'm not going to go into detail. I'm not going to go into detail. 10 minutes I'd be like, yes, let me just pull out the notes and just show you myself. Trevor Holland: Heck. Sarah: As soon as someone says that, I'm like, okay, let's strap in boys. Let's do this. That's so funny. I'm sorry, I'll do the same thing. It's so funny. Trevor Holland: Fuck. no, I feel very attacked right now. no, no, no. You're absolutely right. I was like, that was going to be the abridged version. Shit. yeah, I know what we were talking about. What what's an assessment like? You are and I told you, and then I told you what the ne the what the following three months was. Sarah: love it. Assessment, that's right. Yeah. What? Yes. Trevor Holland: yeah. So yeah, it's basically an interview. it is quite hard going. It can be quite difficult. And for me, I don't know if it's gonna be the same for you, I found it quite difficult to remember some of the stuff they were asking me. which Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: I guess is one of the reasons they get someone else in as well, because they're asking me about my experiences of childhood. And my experiences of childhood were very abstract to think about them now. yeah, I had friends and yeah, I did this and I did that. But you wanna ask me what I was like when I was a kid, I was sad and confused, mainly. I was sad and confused and wond sad and confused, Sarah: Yeah, and just trying to fit in. Yeah. Trevor Holland: wondering why I felt like the most intelligent person at the whole school and yet everything suggested I was the stupidest person in the school. Sarah: and the dumbest and you don't know anything, right? 100%. My school reports always read like, highly intelligent little girl, if only she put herself into her work. If only she didn't get distracted. Like she's a very smart, beautiful girl, but if only she pushed herself a little bit. Like, do you what mean? Every single report that I've read, it's always the exact same thing. If only they knew. Yeah. Yup. Trevor Holland: doesn't apply doesn't apply himself was mine. Does not apply himself. Gifted Sarah: Yep. Trevor Holland: does not apply himself. I do, I apply myself to Sarah: Yes. Trevor Holland: trying to get through the day. Sarah: pretty much and just trying to get like through literally the day without having a mental breakdown. Trevor Holland: and being in being introverted and trying to convince the whole world that I'm a real boy, a real human Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: boy, and trying to convince them that I don't that I I How can I be twice the size of everyone else with this shock of blonde hair on top of my head? I stick out like a fucking sore thumb. How can I still, in spite of those things, be completely invisible because I don't want anyone to notice me or talk to me? Because then I'll have to perform Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: in some kind of way. Of course I Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: wasn't applying myself to fucking arithmetic. Sarah: It's so true because like also your ADHD would be screaming being like, I just want to be like front and center. need to like, you know, that was me as well. I was like Trevor Holland: Yes. Sarah: into drama and I love singing and dancing and all that sort of stuff. But then I was also like, my God, I'm going to be seen. So let's just, but it was good because I think that's why I really love drama. And I did so well at, high school and in my HSC, which was like our last certificate that I was front stage, but I wasn't me. I was playing all these roles and I, you know, I would sing and stuff, but I wasn't me. Does that make sense? Trevor Holland: Mm. Yeah. Sarah: Like I was able to shine and do what I love, but Sarah wasn't the person that was front and stage center. Trevor Holland: That is a weird juxtaposition and it's something that I've not given Sarah: Mm. Trevor Holland: that much thought to, but it is absolutely true that I am simultaneously wanting to not be seen, but at the same time I want everyone to see me. And I don't know how I can make those two things reconcile with each other. Because I Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: I wanna fly under the radar. But I think I think what what the point is is is I want it to be on my terms. I wanna I I wanna I wanna be the Sarah: Yes. Trevor Holland: centre of attention on my terms, but I don't wanna be caught right. But I don't want to be caught unawares. So I don't wanna I don't want I don't Sarah: with the people you feel safe with. Trevor Holland: want people I don't want strangers to notice me. Well no I do It's it's if Sarah: Yeah. And that's why you have a podcast. It makes so much sense, right? Trevor Holland: the if I'm in the right frame of mind, I'm a performer. Hype you know. metaphorically, I'm a performer. Sarah: Mm. Trevor Holland: When conditions are not perfect, I need to bury my head in the sand. so that yeah it is. I I don't want anyone to notice me, but at the same time when I think I've got something worth contributing, I want everyone to see it. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. Sarah: That's so true. Trevor Holland: Yes fucking It's a mess, man. Having more than w having ha having w having one Sarah: It really is hay. Trevor Holland: thing. is like okay well let's deal with that one thing but let's have two things that are diametrically opposed to one another. Yes there's a crossover but why we have two things that are pulling in different directions all Sarah: Yeah Trevor Holland: the fucking time and then you're gonna ask me why I'm tired. I'm i I'm yeah, Sarah: Yep, it's so draining. Trevor Holland: it's it's rough. But I had a couple of questions that I was gonna ask. an hour in, I'm gonna do the format. so Guys, everyone out there. I realised we needed a bit of structure in these podcasts. So but I've had a wonderful time for the last fifty-nine minutes. Yeah, right. And I thought let's if I Sarah: the autism creeping in. Trevor Holland: ask a couple of questions that I ask every guest and you can get a bit of an insight into their lives and the way they think. I thought what a couple of things that I could ask people. So the first question and I s emailed it to you the other day. Really interests me the idea of this because I think it can say a lot about where your head's at. and what your what your what your dystop utopian world, not dystopian. What your utopian world would look like. So the question is Sarah: Mm. Yeah. Trevor Holland: If you could exist in a universe from T V or film and live in that universe, obviously you can take your husband and your children with you if you want to. Sarah: 100 % they're all 100 % urine, I'm neurodivergent too so they come up with yeah Trevor Holland: Where w where where would you live? What universe would you live in? Sarah: So I didn't even need to think about this more than a second, but I would be going to the Wizarding World of Harry Potter. Trevor Holland: Ex explain. Sarah: And I will explain. So, that is like my life. I'm a total Harry Potter nerd. Boxing or whatever. It's always something that I've always felt like, where's my letter? Even just me. I'm sure to me and I'm like, I'm still waiting for it at 34 years old. But how I envision it is that in the wizarding world, the better, sorry, the weirder you are, And the more odd you are, the better the wizard or witch. So like, could you imagine like us, the reason why we're struggling is because we're actually in a muggle world and we don't actually belong here. And our brain is actually like this magical concept and we have these powers, right? Anyway, so then I was thinking about it, then that was where I got to. So like the odd ball you are, the better the witch I would be. And I would be seen for who I am and not judged. Anyway, so then today in the shower, as we all do, I was having my thoughts and I went, my gosh. So I took it even deeper. You know, in the order of you aren't a Harry Potter, right? Trevor Holland: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sarah: Okay, I was gonna say, I'm like, please, you're just. not know what I'm talking about. You know in the Order of the Phoenix when Voldemort is like in Harry's mind and he's trying to like bring him over to the dark side and like make him realize how alike they actually are Trevor Holland: Uh-huh. Sarah: and Harry's being sucked in and pulled and Dumbledore's trying to like get him back right and you just see his soul kind of being taken over by Voldemort right anyway. Harry starts realizing he starts thinking about love. He's from his parents and Sirius, the friendship that he has, the kindness that he shares with people, like everything around that. So in my mind, Voldemort is like the shitty side of being your Ida Virgin or any mental health. Trevor Holland: Right. Sarah: So if you don't like it's the darkness it can take over you but if you have light in your life and community and love and friendship and even if it's one person who has your back you'll be like Harry and you can suffer but you know you're going to be okay and you're not going to be able to like you have light inside of you. Trevor Holland: that's so beautiful, Sarah. Sarah: I know. I told my husband today, because Trevor Holland: huh. Sarah: I told him about it, because I hadn't spoken to him like while he was away and I was like, do you love it? He's like, that makes so much sense. And I was like, I know, I know and I've never thought about it. Trevor Holland: that is beautiful. I mean, there's a lot of there is a b an an argument for the allegorical kind of idea of Voldemort and and Harry's relationship anyway. I mean if you're looking at it on the surface Sarah: Hmm. Trevor Holland: it's these are two separate entities who are kind of joined by cosmic forces, but but you could look at it Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: another way and they you know, they are two sides of the same coin. and yeah. and Christ, Sarah: Literally. Trevor Holland: yeah. That's nice. That's very nice. Sarah: I dunno. Thanks. Trevor Holland: so apart from being kind of accepted for who you are and the more the more eccentric you are the the the more likely you are to be fantastic. what else about the world? I mean it is as beautiful, isn't it? It is it's just it's lovely, it's heartwarming, it's but but the thing is it's it's violent and horrible as well. Sarah: But that's what makes me think it's so like the neuro-idea-vergent struggle, right? Like in my mind, like I can, I have this like curiosity and love and I'm so emotional and I wear my heart on my sleeve and I care for people like no tomorrow. I'm my ideation and I'm like so creative, but then you turn that upside down and then like all I can feel is darkness. Do you know what mean? Like in my mind, like, and there's always that battle between like good and evil and like how you like in my mind, you need to have both to like prevail. I don't know. I just feel like it, it's just like, it's exactly where exactly where I would want to be. Like, I feel like just waking up and just being like, okay, like. I'm magic and this is who I am and like no one's gonna judge me for it I don't have to explain that's where I was born. Do you know what mean? Because like you then step into the neuro-typical world, the muggle world and they start questioning you and you put on that mask and you can't explain that you actually have magical powers and all that sort of stuff. So it's kind of, I don't know, that's how I, I don't know, and it's just fun and it's light and I don't know, I just, I wanna be a witch. Trevor Holland: And so I think that's what we're getting down to that we're getting down to, are we? Sarah: Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. Trevor Holland: and how did Harry get on? You know, think about it. Harry didn't find out he was a wizard, until he was, what, about nine or ten. Sarah: Exactly. Trevor Holland: how did he get on in the mug world? Was he accepted by people? Was he mistreated? He felt different and he didn't know why. He could do things that other people couldn't Sarah: Mm. Trevor Holland: do and he didn't understand them. and he was routinely vilified by people around him. He didn't really have any friends and the people who were supposed to care for him were were were bullying him and mistreating him because they themselves were kind of fearful of what he was and they didn't know they didn't understand what he was either so that they they pushed they pushed him aside. Sarah: Exactly. Trevor Holland: but he was he was different and he didn't understand why. And then he gets a letter and he starts to understand why he's the way he is. And then he takes a trip to Hogwarts and the joy in his eyes when he realizes he's home and he's with his pit and he's with and is with his people for the first time. Sarah: I was about to say the same thing Trevor, literally. Yeah. And you see there's people and that's what I feel like I'm doing right now. Like I feel like I'm like finding my home within myself. Trevor Holland: And this is what the world looks like to us. Right. So us neurodiverse folks. We are forced to live in Mughal world. We don't belong there. Sarah: Bye. Trevor Holland: Because in our heads anything is possible. And it's a world of wonder and and discovery and just mad magic and and just w w whimsy and all sorts of things. Dark and light. But it's a world Sarah: Mm. Trevor Holland: of possibility. But we're stuck in this grey world where people with briefcases walk around and get depressed going to go into jobs and that they do the same thing every day but not in a fun way they because that's all they that's all the all that life means to them and they're very cynical of anything that's different. This is where we're forced to live. imagine if it was the other way around. Imagine if imagine if Sarah: I would love to...yeah. Trevor Holland: The neurotypical folks, the muggles, just said, Okay, I know you're you're quite cynical about life and you think that this is what the world is. You want to see what the world really is. And so imagine sending a muggle to to the wizard in the world and and then suddenly Sarah: Mm. Trevor Holland: so that's why you're the way you are, because y this is where Sarah: This is, yeah. I always like to think about it in the concept that they're the ones that have something wrong with them. Like we're actually like the world, yeah. Trevor Holland: And that's pretty much the way it's yeah. That's the way it's pitched on in Harry Potter that's the way it's it's positioned, isn't it? It's that mug muggles are Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: they're not lesser, but they're they're they're they're they're they're people who are kind of getting in their own way and th they're not aware of the the vast possibilities of the world 'cause they're stuck in their Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: own bubble. w the people who reach their full potential are the ones who who are like Luna Love Goods. 'Cause that's that's 'cause because ev even in the wizarding world she's seen as a bit of a kook. Sarah: She's like, yeah Right, yeah But then they get to know her and they're like, she's actually amazing. Do you mean like Trevor Holland: Yeah, she's a genius. Sarah: she's got her strength? He literally so Yeah, I don't know. I just now that I'm never now that I've come to this conclusion. I'm gonna Look at that universe so differently now Do you mean? Yeah Trevor Holland: I'm gonna have to watch the films again. I'm gonna have to watch the movies again now. I'm thinking like okay, so I'm I'm Harry. I'm Harry now. Watch it through Sarah: What house are you in, do know? Trevor Holland: shit. Nah, Sarah: Have you done the test? Trevor Holland: I haven't I haven't gone to that extent because I just like to experience the universe, but I don't r normally imagine myself in it. so I and I d Sarah: Yeah, now you will. Trevor Holland: I d and I don't know enough about the houses. Whichever one is brave. Who's the brave one? Is that Greswendor? Yeah. Sarah: Gryffindor. Gryffindor, yeah. Trevor Holland: The ones that are brave. Yeah. I'll be that. Yeah? Cool. Sarah: Yeah, Gryffindor. You've got that energy. Yeah. Yeah. Trevor Holland: no, that's such a good answer, Sarah, and I know that I think that getting the Sarah: Thank you. Trevor Holland: the next person who I ask that question to is gonna be shite because they're gonna be ch they're not gonna be able to come up with anything half as good as that. They're gonna say fucking cheers or something. And I'll be like Sarah: Is that the precedent too high? I'm sorry. Trevor Holland: Done it, he nailed it. And the second question I was gonna ask, which is quite an interesting one, and it's one I I I suspect I'm gonna have a decent idea of how people are gonna answer it, but I still wanna know. If by some twist of fate you lived in an environment where suddenly we could turn off your neurodiversity. We could remove your ADHD from you, we could remove your suspected but most likely hundred percent autism from you. and Sarah: Ha ha. Trevor Holland: have you being a normie where you would not overthink everything, where you would not have such an overwhelming emotional reaction to things. Why a world where the sen the sensory inputs would just just stay and they're fine. You can filter them out whenever you want. Where you decide to do a thing and you just do it, where you can start a conversation and maintain it without having to think about it, planet, where you're not tired all the time. Would you do it? Sarah: No, I feel like when I'm in my like bad head spaces, right? I'm still, and I'm sure you do the same thing. You curse at your brain and say hurtful mean things. And this is also why I'm really wanting to go down like the path of like inner child work. But I... Yeah, curse my brain and I curse like I forget something or I just I'm too over. Okay, you know, everything is too hard and too much and the noises are getting too loud or whatever. Yeah, I always say like I hate my brain. I wish I wasn't like this. But now that I know that I am the way that I am, I would never take it away because it like even though I've only known for the last 18 months, I feel like I would have a completely different persona of life. Like I wouldn't be the person that I am and I've hated the person that I've been for the last 34 years, right? Because I didn't understand who I was and I never felt normal or seen or I struggled with friendships and I still do like struggle with relationships and money, all that stuff. But I feel like who I am would be lost if I didn't have my brain. And like. all the parts that I hate and then I want to flick away and I want to fix and stuff I would still keep because they've turned me into the person that I am. All of the shit that I've been through I wouldn't like I could have you know ended it but I've chosen to stay and fight and push through and like it's very evident that my two kids have are on something as well. which I'm not even looking at yet but if they do I want to be able to stand there and be like I am me and do you love mommy for who I am? the messy parts, the bad parts, the great parts, dancing in the kitchen, us being up to the goofballs, like the ideas of like everything that we take it. Like if you love me for who I am and I am completely myself around my kids, like I want to show that if they have that, it's okay to be them. So yeah, like, no, I wouldn't. And it's really hard because like, yeah, I feel like all of the bad stuff. sometimes overweighs all the good stuff. But I know that I wouldn't be the friend that I am, the wife that I am, the mom that I am, if I didn't have ADHD. Trevor Holland: Great. I think Sarah: Mm. Trevor Holland: what I hadn't realised is that question two is an extension of question one in your case. because why would we change ourselves? What we've got is is considered a disability. However, that's because that's what the muggles call it. Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: It's not us that's the problem, it's the environment we're in that's the problem. Sarah: Exactly. Trevor Holland: We're not there's nothing wrong with either of us. We're just Sarah: Mm. Trevor Holland: not always compatible with this place. Sarah: Even with people as well, I've noticed ever since I've only been doing this Instagram stuff, what, for two and a half months now. And I have made more connections and I have felt more safe being me to complete strangers across the globe. Like we're 10 hours apart and I'm not masking. I'm completely and authentically myself. Yet. people that I've known my entire life or friends that I call my best friends, I still don't show me this. Do you know what mean? Like I, a little bit, but I'm still, the mask is still there. So it's like, yeah, just the concept of finding your people, I think as well. And I found that the close knit group that I have are all neurodivergent. Like, to a D. And it just, feel like they get it and they understand that. So I think also, yeah, like the environment and the people that you're with make me feel validated for who I am with no judgment. Trevor Holland: We never feel more empowered or more energized by life when you surround yourself with people who get it. Because you don't have to put on the airs and graces. You don't have to do any of the things that you have to do in n normal situations because you haven't got to adjust your you haven't got to fight against your your own impulse not impulses, but your own way of living. You don't have to change anything Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: about yourself in order to to get through and and it's so freeing and it's such a liberating feeling. That basically I I don't want to be not being funny, sir, but I feel like you're one of my best mates today. Sarah: It's so, it's no, but I feel the same thing too. I feel like now that like I've spoken to him, like I could tell this guy bloody anything. Like I could call you up tomorrow and be like, I'm having a mental breakdown. But you know I mean? Like, cause I feel like the connection, it's weird. It's like, again, leading back into the whole Margot versus Wizarding world. It's like they... Like look at Hermione for example, she was both of her parents are muggles and she felt like she could never be herself around her parents. She loved them and stuff. But, and that's kind of what I feel like with my friends and family who don't get it. But with people that are like, I see you for you and I love you for you and like your story is exactly like mine but a little bit different. You just, I don't know, the connection is there. Trevor Holland: Mm-hmm. Sarah: And like, I love like... It's so funny because back in the day, Instagram, like when I was younger, I was doing it for the likes. was putting on makeup. Everything was posed and everything. And now I'm crying on the goddamn internet like a fool, but I don't care. Do you know what mean? Because I'm like, if I can impact someone for them to be like, okay, I feel seen. And if that reaches that one person that doesn't want to be here anymore and was thinking about taking their own life because they felt alone, like I know that I've made it. Do you what mean? Trevor Holland: I do. That's beautiful. on Sarah: Thank you. Trevor Holland: that night on that night, on that note, sir. Sarah: Sound like a song you're about to sing. Here Trevor Holland: On that night. Sarah: we go. This James, bring it on. Yeah. Trevor Holland: On that note, sir, I will wrap it up. That this has been a magnificent conversation. I very much appreciate Sarah: Thank you. Trevor Holland: the time you've taken to talk to me. And thank you for being the guinea pig for my experiment. And thank you for thinking about the answers. And thank you for coming up with such a barnstormer Sarah: It was fun. Trevor Holland: of two answers for those questions. But yeah, you're you're you're very much in now in the circle of trust. I've I've I've made I've made a new friend today. That's pretty great. Sarah: Thank you, you too. Yeah, one of the biffles. Trevor Holland: Say what? Sarah: One of the biffles. Trevor Holland: What does mean? Sarah: Like best friends for life. Biffles. Trevor Holland: Biffles. Sarah: BFFLS. Biffles. Trevor Holland: Okay. Sarah: you get it? Trevor Holland: I get it now. Wait, but you were just saying biffle at me. I didn't know what the fuck you were talking about. Sarah: That's not a UK term. Yeah, BFLS, like BFFL. I'm Trevor Holland: Yeah, yeah, yeah, man. Yeah. Totes. Sarah: gonna RSD about this one all week. Wonderful. Trevor Holland: I'm not I'm not rejecting your friendship. I'm not I'm just not understanding what the fuck you're talking about. It's fine. It's fine. Sarah: like fuck she makes weird fucking names. Yeah, no. Love that so much. Yes, but no, it's been lovely. Trevor Holland: But yeah, thanks again. Take care. and we'll catch up again very soon, I am sure of it. All right. Sarah: Of course, thank you so much for having me and it has been great. Trevor Holland: Thank you, thank Thank you once again, Sarah. I hope you enjoyed that episode as much as I did. Once again, please follow Sarah on Instagram at Sarah Tonin underscore diaries. Follow me on Instagram at shouty brain and please visit me at shouty brain.com to find out all about what I'm up to. And you can follow my various bits and pieces. Please like, subscribe and follow and comment on the podcast if you enjoyed it. And if you didn't, that's fine. Just keep it to yourself. What I'd like to know from you this week, what universe would you live in from TV and film if you could? I think it's a really interesting question to ask and don't worry, you're not in direct competition with Sarah, but I'd be interested to hear what you think. So you can email me at shoutybrain at gmail.com or you can contact me directly through my Instagram at shoutybrain or you know, do it in the comments on the YouTube channel, whatever you want. You can get in touch with me. The best ones that I receive I will read out in next week's