Latest / It’s All Your Fault: High Conflict People / How to Leave a High Conflict Relationship Without Escalating
Transcript
- *This transcript is produced using transcription software and reviewed for quality. Despite our best efforts, some passages may be incomplete or contain errors due to audio quality or software limitations.* Megan Hunter Welcome to It's All Your Fault on TruStory FM, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you with the most challenging human interactions, those involving someone with a high conflict personality. I'm Megan Hunter and I'm here with my co-host Bill Eddy. Bill Eddy Hi, everybody. Megan Hunter We are the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute and ConflictInfluencer.com, where we focus on training, consulting, coaching, classes, and educational programs and methods, all to do with high conflict. So welcome, listeners. Thank you for joining us today, and especially during your workday. So what are we going to talk about today? We're going to talk about revenge, retaliation, and one of the biggest reasons people stay stuck in an unhealthy relationship far longer than they want to. It's fear. Fear of what will happen if they leave, fear of emotional explosions, smear campaigns, financial punishment, legal warfare, threats involving children, public humiliation, or even violence. So we're also going to talk about the well known Betty Broderick case because decades later it still sparks strong reactions and raises difficult questions about betrayal, rage, humiliation, obsession, and emotional escalation during separation and divorce. We're not here to diagnose anyone or excuse harmful behavior, but we do think the case illustrates something important. When unmanaged emotions, blame, all or nothing thinking — when those things take over, people can lose perspective, lose emotional control, and make catastrophic decisions. At HCI, we teach that high conflict behavior is often driven by a combination of unmanaged emotions, extreme behaviors, rigid thinking, and a preoccupation with blame. So today we'll talk about how to safely remove yourself from a high conflict relationship and how to reduce the escalations and how to avoid getting pulled into revenge thinking yourself. So, Bill, I know you have some history with the Betty Broderick case. Tell us about this case. Bill Eddy Yeah, so I know this case well because I met Betty Broderick around 1992 or '93. She killed her husband, Dan, who was the head of the local County Bar Association in San Diego. She killed him in 1994, I believe it was. So I met her a couple of years earlier. I was still a therapist, just becoming a lawyer. And one of the things I did as a therapist, I worked for mostly a drug and alcohol counseling clinic. And so I was asked to speak at her daughter's high school just about drugs in general, drug treatment, addiction, all that stuff. And she was in the audience. Megan Hunter Betty herself. Bill Eddy Betty was there. Megan Hunter Okay. Bill Eddy And so she came up to me afterwards and started telling me about her horrible divorce. And I remember thinking that she was so intense. I already knew about personality disorders by then. I learned about that in 1980. So this is '92, '93. She had the intensity of emotion that actually made me a little concerned. And I was thinking, well, you know, feels like she could be almost a dangerous person, but she's engaged in a divorce process, so that'll keep her preoccupied. There'll be paperwork, meetings, all this stuff. But the intensity of her emotions really struck me. I did not imagine that she would go out and kill her husband, but when I heard about that, I was not totally surprised. Now, one thing to mention — both sides in her criminal trial, and she had two trials. First one was ended as a hung jury. They couldn't agree. There were two people that really believed her story, that she was a victim of paper abuse. Megan Hunter Paper abuse. Bill Eddy Her husband, Dan, was a lawyer and she said he showered her with so much paper that she just Megan Hunter Interesting. Bill Eddy couldn't emotionally take it anymore. I mean, she went through like a high conflict divorce, but most people do that without killing their spouses. But so she complained about paper abuse, and they believed her and believed that she was the victim and that he was the perpetrator. So that was the first hung jury, second trial unanimous jury, and she was convicted. But both sides' lawyers said she had borderline personality disorder and I found that to really fit. Megan Hunter A little background on the case. So did he have an affair? What I know about the case is that Betty went to his — after he remarried, she went to his new home, or maybe it was their former home, I don't know — and killed both he and his new wife while they were sleeping in bed. Is that correct? Bill Eddy Yes. Megan Hunter What kind of led up to that? And then let's dive into the borderline talk. Bill Eddy So what happened is, I think when he turned forty, Dan got involved with his paralegal for his law office, whose pictures looked like Betty looked when she was also about twenty-five. So it was very, you know, psychologically interesting. Megan Hunter Oh dear. Bill Eddy Betty said that, well, he's having a midlife crisis and so he's having an affair with his paralegal, but that'll end soon. I know about it, and I just want it to run its course and be over with. And she was shocked. She wasn't shocked that he had an affair. She was shocked that he divorced her. Now one thing Dan said is she threatened divorce on a regular basis because she was emotional, she had the emotional roller coaster that seems to fit a borderline personality disorder. And so she was really surprised and then she went into revenge mode. She went to his house, went into his house, threw all his sweaters and pants, I think, out the window and made a pile outside the house and set fire to it. On another occasion she drove her car into the front door of his house. So she was — a couple of things, very big warning signs. One is she had that revenge mode. But the other is she was quite comfortable being violent. And she even told — she had two sons, I think ten and twelve — told them that she was going to a firing range. She bought a gun and she was practicing shooting at a firing range. And apparently the boy said, Mom, you've got to get over this. It was two older daughters and two younger sons. And it was a tragedy for the whole family. But she was just out of control, obsessed with her anger, revenge, and violence. So it was building and that's part of — I didn't know all that at the time, but afterwards it really came out. Megan Hunter So do you think there were other factors at play here? I know with borderline there's often vindictiveness, revenge, which then can be kind of sometimes confused with antisocial personality disorder where there's, you know, sort of similar things happening — an intent to destroy, a drive to destroy. So they're kind of similar but different. Or are they? Bill Eddy Well, I don't know, but there may have been an overlap with narcissistic personality because she was quite devastated to lose her status as the wife of Dan Broderick, who was the most successful lawyer in San Diego County, probably by a lot of measures. Head of the County Bar Association, he was making two or three million a year as a medical malpractice lawyer. He also had a medical degree, went to Harvard, I think, for his medical degree, and maybe Yale or maybe Harvard for his law degree. So he was the perfect example of a high-status person, and she got a lot out of her status of being with him. And that's what the lawyers said at the trial — that that loss of status was so devastating to her that she basically lost her mind with revenge. So possibly that. I don't know so much about possibly antisocial traits. I don't know that she had a history of lying, and that's one of the differences between narcissistic and antisocial personalities. Narcissists just exaggerate. Antisocial personalities totally fabricate things. In my mind, I'd be curious about — I can't diagnose her of course — but I'd be curious about narcissistic traits. But they did openly, both sides, say she had borderline personality disorder. And one of the characteristics of that is identity confusion — basically, I don't know quite who I am — and that she attached herself there. Interestingly enough, when she started her prison sentence, she turned into the queen bee of the women's prison and apparently was relatively happy because she was the center of attention. So that also fits that kind of borderline trying to find her place in the world, just the sad way that that came about. Megan Hunter Yeah, and interestingly, she just passed away here in — I think late April 2026 — at age seventy-eight. And you know, the articles I read mentioned that there were certain people working within the prison that said they were sad at her passing and missed her. And I think her children commented on — you know, had some kind things to say about her. So it's an interesting life lived, and a lot of pain and sadness. And you know, not every case is this extreme, right, where it ends up in prison and a loss of life. But there are a lot of people who are afraid to leave a high conflict relationship because they've heard this person talk about vengeful things they've done in the past or what they would like to do to exact revenge on people. And so it can become a fearful thing to leave a high conflict relationship. So even beyond hearing about past events that this person's done, why else — what other reasons are people afraid to leave a high conflict relationship? Bill Eddy Yeah, there's many. I mean, the financial, and the house the kids have lived in all their lives. Maybe they're getting ready to finish high school in a couple of years and people feel like, should I really rock the boat or can I wait until they're out of high school? But I think the psychological, emotional stuff, if you're dealing with a high conflict partner, is the fear of their rage, fear of their sadness, fear that they won't be able to cope, they won't be able to live without me, kind of feeling. And that really confuses people because you think marriage should be something that you're both wanting to be in. And if one of you doesn't want to be in it, it's not really a marriage anymore, a marriage of agreement. And that's why one person can get a divorce at court, even if the other objects. It's not a marriage if you're not both into it being a marriage. But I think the fear of the other person's emotional reaction is probably the biggest thing — that they'll either maybe risk being harmful to you or harmful to themselves. Oh, the other big reason is sometimes high conflict people often threaten to take the kids away from the other person. Well then you'll never see the kids again. I'll get the kids, I'll get full custody, I'll tell them that you do everything wrong. And that's a threat that keeps a lot of people stuck. Especially I think women in domestic violence situations — their partners often threaten to take the kids away from them and say they're a bad parent. And nobody's perfect, so you know, but that's terrible. Megan Hunter Absolutely. And this happens, you know, in non-divorce cases as well. It can happen in families and business partnerships and a lot of different relationships. And there can be many different avenues of retaliation. And I think it keeps people in such a grip of fear — it could affect their job, their career, their life savings, many, many things. But most importantly, like you said, affecting your children is probably the hardest thing of all. So what do you think is the biggest mistake people make when trying to leave a high conflict relationship? Bill Eddy I think self-criticism, actually. Megan Hunter That's interesting. Bill Eddy Yeah, because just about everyone I talk to is going through a difficult divorce, even if it isn't a high conflict divorce. Most people blame themselves. They say, well, you know, I did this or I did that or I shouldn't have gotten married. I saw warning signs before, but now we've got these two beautiful kids and we've got all these problems — financial and everything. And I think that the self-criticism makes it hard for people to make really logical decisions and to follow through with their decisions, that they believe they're making a good decision. And I always encourage people to get some counseling before you make these final decisions. Maybe couples counseling, although with high conflict people that often doesn't work at all. But in other cases it can maybe even make the difference and save the marriage. But I think get some counseling so that you're clear on what you're doing and why. And part of the self-doubt is people go back and forth. And that's especially not good, like say, with a partner who has borderline or narcissistic personality, because it keeps it raw. They're not really — the relationship isn't really over and they're thinking, if I do one more thing, maybe I can keep this going. And that may be one of the things that happened in the OJ Simpson case, when he came upon Nicole and a man — she was a friend, not a relationship at all, but she kind of knew — escorted her home one evening, and OJ came upon them and then killed both of them. Apparently he thought that they were starting to get back together at that time. And so it was so raw for him. So that's something — go in one direction. If you're leaving, and like I said, make sure that's what you want to do, because you might not need to leave. But if you've made the decision, it's a reasonable decision, you've consulted with a therapist, consulted with a lawyer, and that's what you're doing, you want to be consistent with that so the other person can adjust to the reality of the separation and divorce and not keep having that wound opened up again and again. So the self-doubts lead to bad decisions sometimes. Megan Hunter I hadn't thought about that. I think that's really important and poignant, right? Just keep that momentum going. Make the decision and keep going in that direction. And then do it carefully and wisely, right? So let's say that decision has been made. Someone's gone to talk to their therapist, maybe a lawyer, maybe trusted friends, whoever, and made the decision — yeah, I get to have a seat at my own table and I get to have some agency over my own life. Now how do I do it? So at that point, you know, some people will make a very abrupt decision, right? Like, okay, I can't take this anymore, or I've made a very measured, well-counseled decision, so I'm just out. And that often creates escalations. Why is that? Bill Eddy Yeah, I don't recommend that. There may be exceptional cases where that works or that's what you have to do. What I recommend is small steps so that the other person can adjust. If they're a high conflict person, they may not go through the normal grieving and healing process, and it may be much harder for them to accept that this is coming. And so I often recommend take some time to think about it, like maybe move out for a week. And just say, I need some time to myself to really think about this. And then if you decide that you definitely want a divorce, you're not in the house when you're making that decision. You're able to have some perspective and also have some safety, and also have the other person starting to feel your absence. And so depending on if it's a physically dangerous situation, I recommended that people get to an unknown safe place, and then have their lawyer serve papers on their spouse saying, I want a divorce, but with that a cover letter that says, but I'd like to have an amicable divorce and let's meet with a mediator or let's meet with lawyers and let's start working things out so that there's this sense of an effort to be amicable and an effort to do things out of court. But as you can see, this kind of step-by-step may make it easier for the person to cope. It may not make a difference at all, but it also makes it safer. If you're already a little bit removed, like you've spent a week or a month more or less separated, and then make that final decision. Most dangerous in domestic violence cases is when you say you want the divorce and if you're in the house and you say, Honey, I'm gonna get divorced from you. This is it. I'm going out the door now and we're done. And that's when people get killed or get seriously injured. That's why you do have to think about safety, because for high conflict people, the time of this announcement is the most dangerous time. Megan Hunter So in a divorce, you have something to grasp onto legally. You can do that filing. But what if it's not a marriage? What if it's a business relationship or a relationship where, you know, the people are not living together and they don't have any legal recourse? What are the steps to avoid and what are the steps to take? Bill Eddy I think just similar principles — step by step may help. And don't rush into decisions. And like I said, don't go back and forth. Whether you or someone representing you informs the other person that this is the end of the partnership, there's going to be legal steps to take. And even with an employer, there's legal requirements and this, that, and the other thing. But I think often having a buffer, having a representative, helps ease that process. And I would say even in families where there's conflicts that reach the point of saying, you know, I'm gonna stop having contact with you — it may help to have someone in between that can still communicate a little bit, because that is really hard. And as one of our prior programs we talked about, people ending relationships with their parents or with their adult children. And that's a really emotionally tragic thing. And so you want to deal with it, I think, step by step, and often having someone as a buffer in the process. Megan Hunter Okay. Now what if you really are concerned that this person may try to ruin you, ruin your reputation, try to get you in trouble somehow with the police, with your job, with your HOA — you name it, maybe some of your more vulnerable spots. So is there a way to prepare for that potential — that a police officer may show up on your doorstep? And now you have someone saying, you know, an officer not knowing who's telling the truth and who's lying. Bill Eddy Right. And that's a real challenge for police. These are their least desirable calls. It says domestic on their phone or whatever and they're like, oh no, here we go again. Megan Hunter Except for one of our speakers, one of our teachers that we're utilizing in our Conflict Influencer class — who's a retired police officer, learned to use EAR statements from your book, Bill, Calming Upset People with EAR — and then started using those on DV calls and eventually started taking every DV call that he could, because he was able to make so much impact. And he ended up with over one thousand DV calls in — you know, not a sixty-year, forty-year career, it was more like a fifteen-year career. Anyway, so continue. Bill Eddy So there are some people. Megan Hunter Yeah, a few. Bill Eddy Right, right. And it's good to find people that like what they do because they can be the most helpful and knowledgeable. But I would say a couple of things. One is to take a preventative approach — keep a good record of incidents that show the other person's patterns of behavior. And also, let's say the other person's been violent with you, and they're going to say that you're actually making false allegations, but you have details — just keep notes on those somewhere, maybe even on a thumb drive if you're still at home and it's not safe. But also you may have someone who does make false allegations a lot, and you may have a list of people they've made false allegations against, and be prepared for false allegations against yourself, so that you've got some paperwork, some documentation. And in high conflict divorces, I sometimes suggest that you write a two or three page summary of the worst examples of the other person's behavior as a parent, or in terms of violence or threats or alienating behavior or false allegations, whatever it is, because all of these are possible. And that you have that summary ready — you can give that to your lawyer who then makes a declaration — and then suddenly you find that your ex or soon-to-be ex has gone to court and got a restraining order against you, kicking you out of your house, and that it's based on false information. Then you've got your paperwork ready to go. And so that's important. I talk a lot about domestic violence, but there's also a percent of cases that are false allegations of domestic violence. Maybe we're looking at ten, fifteen percent of cases. And so you have to be prepared for false allegations of anything. But another thing — I've had this happen and I recommend to people: don't fight over paperwork with your spouse. I had a case where I represented a husband. He came to me after this happened. He said, my wife grabbed some of my papers and I was grabbing them back. And then she jumped backwards and threw her head against the bedpost and fell to the ground. And he said she totally did that herself. So I didn't push her. She threw herself back, hit her head, landed there, and then she went to court and got a restraining and kick-out order against me. And so I got him after he was already kicked out. And it took a while, but the information in the case eventually came out that she did a lot of things that were manipulations and false. So you want to be prepared by having kind of a documentation of some of that. And a summary can help. Megan Hunter One of the main things to avoid, I think, is saying to the court or to the police or someone, you know, this person has a high conflict personality or this person has borderline or they're a narcissist or whatever. Professionals hear this all the time and they can't diagnose, they haven't seen the history. So the alternative then is to show the history, right? And so is there evidence of a lot of past court cases, law enforcement dealings? Usually there's a history — not all the time, but in some cases there is. And so to have that prepared, and to show your clean history, if you have one, at the same time, because history matters. Bill Eddy Absolutely. And what you want to show is behavior and patterns of behavior, and certainly don't label them in court documents or to judges in court testimony. You say, well, you know, my wife's a borderline, so therefore she should never have the kids, or my husband's a narcissist, so therefore he should never have the kids. You know, that doesn't go well. What they want to know is what's the behavior in this case? And so if you've got examples of behavior, that's what really tells the story of what's happening to you. And if you have three or four examples demonstrating a problematic behavior, that's what's persuasive, not the label that you put on it. So that's what's important. I remembered the other thing I was gonna say, which you're kind of leading into — which is, do you want to warn people that there may be a high conflict divorce or high conflict leaving employment or partnership dissolution coming? It depends. If you have a good relationship, like family members, etc., you may want to tell them, like your employer. But if you're on shaky ground, you might not want to tell them so that they jump to the conclusion that you're going to be a problem. Megan Hunter Yeah, so you have to have a high trust factor, most definitely. So, you know, I'm sure this can all sound really overwhelming for people who are in a situation like this. So what would you say to someone who's on the fence about whether to just stay in the relationship out of fear of, you know, the fallout, or should they proceed in the ways we've talked about? I mean, we're not giving advice, but after gathering a lot of information and being sure about your decision — which would you say? Bill Eddy I would actually recommend two books. Both of them, my co-author is Randi Kreger. The first one is one she primarily wrote, Stop Walking on Eggshells for Partners, to think about should I stay or should I go? And the other is Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder, which I primarily wrote. But we're both authors on each other's books. And hers is more — you're in the situation, should you get out. Mine is more — you're thinking of getting out, what do you need to think about if you do? So between those two, I think they can really guide you and help make those decisions, but of course they're always up to the individual. Megan Hunter Absolutely. And in these books, like Splitting can be — I think it's helpful whether it's a divorce or not. A lot of the information is solid for whatever kind of relationship you're thinking about and making decisions on. All right, well, revenge and retaliation are often fueled by emotional pain, fear, humiliation, and a desperate attempt to regain control. This doesn't excuse destructive behavior, but understanding the dynamics can help people respond more effectively and protect themselves more safely. We at HCI believe the goal is not to defeat people or escalate conflict. The goal is to reduce emotional intensity, increase structure, set clear limits, and help people make decisions from a calmer and more grounded place. So most importantly, it means recognizing when you're being pulled into the emotional system of high conflict yourself and choosing a different path before things escalate further. There is a path. So we'll put the links to the Splitting book and Stop Walking on Eggshells for Partners both in the show notes, as well as the Conflict Influencer class that is taught by the former police officer I was talking about. That starts June 3rd. It's a great six-week class. He's not talking domestic violence specifically, but teaching conflict communication skills. If you're looking for a training or consultation about a high conflict situation for your organization, visit us at HighConflictInstitute.com, including if you're interested in our new assessment for organizations to determine if they are conflict confident and competent. If you have a high conflict situation in your personal life, please visit us at ConflictInfluencer.com. Keep learning and practicing skills. Be kind to yourself and others while we try to keep the conflict small and find the missing peace. It's All Your Fault is a production of TruStory FM. Engineering by Andy Nelson. Music by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins, and Ziv Moran. Find the show, show notes, and transcripts at trustory.fm or HighConflictInstitute.com/podcast. If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.