Latest / Leaders in Customer Loyalty, Powered by Loyalty360 / #434: Industry Voices: Jonathan Silver of Engage People on the Power of Pay with Points and Loyalty Innovation

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#434: Industry Voices: Jonathan Silver of Engage People on the Power of Pay with Points and Loyalty Innovation · Leaders in Customer Loyalty, Powered by Loyalty360

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Good afternoon and good morning.
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: This is Ethan Perry, director of Content at Loyalty360, welcoming you to another edition of our Leaders in Customer Loyalty Industry Voices series.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: In these episodes, we talk to the leading agencies, technology partners and consultants in customer channel and brand loyalty about the technology trends and best practices that impact the ability of brands to drive unique experiences, enhance engagement and, most importantly, customer loyalty.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: Today we have the pleasure of speaking with Jonathan silver, the CEO at engage people.
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: Welcome, jonathan, thank you for joining us hey, thanks for having me a pleasure to be here excellent.
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: Well, to start off, can you tell our audience a little bit about yourself, your role with engage people and a little bit about your background?
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: sure.
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: So ceo of engage people.
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: Um been in this industry my entire life.
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: Quite by accident started with a developer and moved along through the world that way um metage.
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: I'm responsible for strategy and vision as to where we're going and then working with all the teams on our products and our clients and making sure we continue to deliver excellence to our clients.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: Great and for those who might not be familiar with how Engage People supports a brand's customer loyalty efforts, can you give us a brief overview of what you do and the industries that you work with?
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: Sure.
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: So we are a loyalty technology company.
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: We bring really two products to market.
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: We have a loyalty management software platform that just manages end-to-end loyalty programs for customers, and it's everything from segmentation, marketing, communications, rewards, member engagement and so on.
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: And then the other product we bring to market is our Pay With Points technology, and so it's a product that allows people to use their points as a form of payment at checkout at our participating retailers.
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: And that's the product that is growing rapidly and changing the way the industry operates.
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: I'm sure we've all had some experience with paying with points here and there, yeah, so how do you define customer loyalty?
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: What does that mean to your organization?
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: So, you know, it kind of a little bit varies by customer, but at the end of the day, our clients are looking for ways to engage their members in a more meaningful way, in a more financial ROI, and drive benefits to their membership.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: And so for certain customers it'll be everything from it's about data and engagement, other customers it's frequency, sometimes it's retention, and so it's very much around aligning what is a brand or a company's objectives, what they're trying to achieve and how they define loyalty, and then how can we help them drive the results that they need out of their loyalty program.
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: And, at the end of the day, for us, a loyalty program is actually a financial vehicle.
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: It needs to have a positive ROI.
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: You need to be able to sit in front of your CFO and go.
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: Here's the benefits we are driving to the business, and so that's kind of we really leave it up to our customers to define loyalty, but for us it's about helping them achieve those business results Great.
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: Well, we saw in our most recent State of Customer Loyalty report that 79% of the brands we surveyed have an interest in updating, enhancing or redoing their customer loyalty offerings.
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: Do you see any specific industries leading the charge in loyalty program innovation and, if so, which ones, and what are they doing differently?
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: You know so, across the board, you're seeing incredible innovations.
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: differently, you know so across the board, you're seeing incredible innovations, you know and so, whether it's around better segmentation and using AI to drive better communications and marketing to a member you know, for airlines and hotels, it's identifying your top customers and putting the right benefits in front of them, above just miles or points, and making sure that your top customers are actually treated as top customers and recognized as such.
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: For more transactional customers, it's very much making sure that the benefits you put in front of them are relevant and meaningful.
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: And then, as we're expanding it, we're seeing more and more partnerships, and so we're seeing companies who you don't think aligned or don't match up doing stuff together because hey, you both got a currency, I'll let people redeem my currency at your location and you do the same.
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: And we both grow up high and both increase our member engagement across the board.
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: So we're seeing a lot more of that as well.
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: Awesome, and you mentioned new technology.
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: Among those things like AI, gamification, zero-party and first-party data collection.
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: Which technological innovations do you believe will have the greatest impact on loyalty programs in 2025, and why?
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: So, look, ai is still in its infancy.
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: I don't think we're going to see the real ramifications of that for a year or so, but you are seeing more and more tools around.
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: How do I save and communicate to my base in a more effective way and how can I give you a different message to me in a cost-effective way that's meaningful and relevant, without having a human go through and all the data analytics and stuff?
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: You know the other thing, what we're.
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: I'm just trying to think what else we're seeing that's going to impact.
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: This year.
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: A lot of customers are revamping their programs.
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: There's a cost issue and there's a you know and can I measure the benefit, and so we're seeing a lot of work being done around.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: What is the actual cost benefit?
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: What are the metrics I need to put in place so that I can get better funding, make sure it stays top of the mindshare inside of an organization, and what can I do to actually drive meaningful benefit to the members in the program at a lower cost?
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: And at the end of the day, this is an expense, so we need to make sure there is an ROI attached to it.
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's definitely something that we continue to hear about from our members as well how to balance that.
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: You also kind of touched on some of the ways in which customer interaction is changing with technology, as those interactions continue to span both digital and physical channels.
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: How do loyalty programs integrate both you know in-person and online experiences for a seamless and cohesive customer journey?
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: Our mandate around our Pay With Points product is to engage a member at checkout in a way that they're being engaged at that moment in time, and so we believe it's okay to communicate with a member on that phone email.
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: However, you do it Prior to an engagement.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: Hey, you're walking into a mall here's an offer, which is fine, but when you're at checkout and I'm going to give you an offer it needs to be at the POS terminal so that, whether you're tapping your card or you're checking out online, it'll say, hey, here is a benefit for you.
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: Do you want it, and that could be.
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: Do you want to reduce it?
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: Use your points from a third party as part of that checkout process, or it could be an offer.
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: But asking people to go and do something go register for this, go do that doesn't drive the same results in engagement that we want to keep it meaningful in time and at the moment of truth.
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: basically Cool, so switching gears a little.
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: What are some of the common reasons that loyalty programs fail to meet their goals, and how do you think brands can address these issues?
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: It also comes back down to industry-specific issues, a lot of it's legacy systems, and then you've also got compliance and security and restrictions around what you can and cannot do.
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: The US is a little easier to operate in than in other countries, where we have much stricter data and privacy rules, but at the end of the day, you need corporate and C-suite buy-in on your program and historically, I don't think we've spent enough time on financial metrics, financial objectives and so when people are looking at their issues, some of these require massive investments.
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: If you're a retailer and you want to revamp your entire member engagement strategy, that's a big technology investment, as well as research and analytics upfront to make sure you're getting it right, and so you need to have the right metrics and goals and objectives in place.
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: And then people make them too complex.
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: It's got to be simple.
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: Think about it as a consumer.
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: You know social media has trained people to be engaged for 20 seconds, 30 seconds, so your communications have to fit into that and the benefits have to be realized in that 20, 30 seconds.
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: You can't make stuff complicated.
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, absolutely.
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: So you mentioned metrics.
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: What are the most critical metrics brands should be tracking to measure the success of their loyalty programs in 2025?
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: You know what?
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: Unfortunately, it's a brand-specific objective.
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: If you're a high-frequency brand, your grocery store wants you to come in right.
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: Can I increase your frequency share of wallet and increase your basket size?
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: You know, if I'm a vertically integrated, can I get third-party data.
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: You know it's SKU level so I can get other people to pay for promotions and offers and stuff like that.
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: If you're a financial institution, it's how do I drive spend on my card retention engagement?
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: Make it meaningful and relevant to the member.
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: But if you're a higher-end, low-frequency brand.
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: your loyalty program is completely different.
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: At that point it's not a points program anymore, it could be VIP events and it's a different kind of strategy altogether, and so we always look when we talk to our clients.
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: it's what are you trying to?
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: achieve.
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: Who's your market, what's your frequency, what's the ticket size?
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: If you're a low ticket, low frequency, you need to partner.
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: You're not going to get there on your own and so just find the right partners that are going to help you get there.
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: So it's a very complicated there isn't a one size that fits all, and we're always working with our clients on what are your objectives?
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: What's the world you?
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: live in.
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: And then how do we get there in a cost-effective way?
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: Totally, that makes perfect sense.
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: Are there any metrics you see that you think are underutilized or overlooked when assessing the success of loyalty programs?
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: Again, industry specific.
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: If you're a credit card company, retention is a big one.
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: So what happens is people look at me and go, hey, I'd like to expire my points because there's a financial value of those points expiring.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: But then I've just lost a customer and I have to look at the cost of acquisition for that customer, what it cost me to get them, what's going to cost me to keep them versus the value of devaluing or recouping the points.
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: For us we think making sure you know there's that old adage right Happy customer tell one person and unhappy customer tell ten.
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: So making sure you've got all the right metrics and all the right design in place to make life easy for your members and go from there so can you tell us what do you think is working for some of your clients right now when it comes to building successful loyalty programs or loyalty strategies, and maybe provide us with an example or two?
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: so completely biased here on this one, but um, um our clients, our credit card company loyalty programs and their retail partners that have integrated pay with points have had um the biggest impact I've ever seen on any loyalty programs out of everything I've done in the last 35 years.
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: And it's everything from.
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: We are seeing a significant increase in spend on cards, we're seeing a percentage of inactive cards becoming active, so coming to front of the wallet and we're seeing the cost per point may stay the same, but the administrative costs of managing that come way down.
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: So you have operational cost savings as well, and then the companies they partner with, who accept the points, are seeing an increase in sales, they're seeing an increase in basket size at a lower cost and the member engagement scores go up through the roof.
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: And so it's the one thing we've actually done where we see all three parties involved love it, utilize it, and I always tell people we get complaints when we go down for maintenance.
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: And so that tells us it's working.
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: So you know we're a firm believer that if you're a brand and you're running your own loyalty program, accepting a credit card's loyalty points is accretive to your program.
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: It brings in new customers, it doesn't interfere with yours and it actually enhances it as well.
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: And it's a great marketing tool For the bank clients.
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: Their members are happier and they're spending more and their attention is up, so it's a win-win.
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: So you know biased on that one, but very much seeing the best results we've ever seen out of that.
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: That's amazing.
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: That's a great example.
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: So, on a more personal level, are there programs that you admire or that you're loyal to as a customer, and what do you like about their offerings?
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: Sure, so I'm Canadian, so Air Canada has done a really good job.
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: And look, we live on planes and so what they do and it's less even about this is about status, not about miles, and it's the ability to look, we change flights on a constant basis, so their concierge service is unbelievable, and so the value prop of that concierge service drives me to make sure I keep my status more than anything, and so you know we have that and I think they do an incredibly good job of their member engagement and their offers and the value proposition behind their status.
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: The second one I use most is Marriott, which is becoming more challenging.
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: It upgrades a few, but it's still early checkouts late checkout are key for us.
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: Early checkouts, late checkout are key for us and other than that, I'm a terrible consumer.
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: I do the stuff.
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: I like and loyal to the brands, but I'm not a good consumer.
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, it sounds like Air Canada is keeping your loyalty, so they're doing something right.
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they're doing a good job.
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: I have to give them credit.
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: Amazing your loyalty.
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: So they're doing something right.
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, they're doing a good job.
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: I have to give them credit.
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, amazing.
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: So I'm thinking about you know, consumers in general.
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: How do you think that consumer expectations are going to continue to evolve in 2025 and how should forward thinking brands start preparing to meet them?
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, if you think about um.
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: How are we using?
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: our devices.
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm old, but my friends are already no longer taking credit cards out of it.
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: I was in Australia a couple of weeks ago.
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: We have clients out there.
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: I think about 80% of their transactions are now mobile.
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: So you know the technology exists today.
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: We know where you are, we know what you're doing.
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: As long as you've opted in, let me put something irrelevant and meaningful in front of you at the right moment.
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: And it's not a spam and I've got to be careful about it.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: But if you're walking in a mall I can go.
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: Hey, ethan, by the way, if you go to the store and spend $100, there's $20 back, right, and you have that.
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: And then you know, because that capability exists and now you overlay that.
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: With you know the the beginnings of ai, you'll be able to start putting relevant offers in front of people at the right moment at the right time absolutely so.
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: We're starting to see brands testing and working on that and and I think it will become much more mainstream in the next couple of years.
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: I've heard so much about similar things lately.
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: I think that's definitely on the horizon, so do you have any closing advice or thoughts that you'd like to share with our audience?
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know.
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: Look, you've got to try stuff now.
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: Technology is allowing us to do small segment testing and see what works, because everybody's consumers are different, right, and the world's changing so rapidly that you know we have the ability.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: Today, we know our clients on our platform can create a segment in real time put an offer out in real time and see how it goes, and so we're just encouraging people to try.
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: It's an interesting thing, because when we do research and you ask people what they want, they'll say cash, Whether it's an employee recognition program, whether it's a cash rebate on a credit card.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: Yet we get better results and better impact for non-cash.
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: So data and research doesn't always give you the right answer, and so we have this capability to test and learn, and so we just encourage it as much as you can and don't be afraid, and some things will work and some things won't, and you learn along the way.
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, couldn't agree more.
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: I mean as a marketer, that's kind of at the root of what we do every day.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: I agree more.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: I mean as a marketer, that's kind of, you know, at the root of what we do every day.
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: So what's next for Engage People this year as we move forward?
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: You know we're launching some exciting new clients, exciting new partners on our retail and our payment points network, and so that's our big focus for the rest of the year.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: You know we have some clients on our platform launching as well, so that's also exciting, but our main focus is expanding that network and, as we're going through between now and the beginning of the holiday season, we'll have some big announcements and your partners who are participating are really excited about that.
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: Amazing, can't wait to see it.
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: So that actually brings us to our famous quickfire section, where we try to keep the answers to one word or a short phrase, so we'll just kind of fire these off.
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: How would you describe your work life?
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: Like a pendulum, exciting and scary, going back and forth every five minutes.
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: So if you have a day or a week off from work, what are you doing?
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: Family exercise friends usual stuff, nothing.
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: If you could live in any city or country, where would you live?
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: I live in Toronto, man, where else would you want to live?
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: If you could go back to school, what would you study?
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: Probably go back, I don't know.
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: Toss up between aeronautical engineering and law, and they're completely different, but they were just things I've always wanted to do.
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: What facet of your job would you like to know more about?
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: The CEO of my company.
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: I better know it at this point, right, but look, we're always learning, right.
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: I've got a great team.
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: I learn from all the time.
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: So I don't think there's a single facet, it's just a constant learning.
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: What facet of your job would you like to know less about?
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: Same thing Info security.
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: I know way too much and it's so important for everything we do.
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: And we spend so much time on this.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what I?
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: It's weird, yeah.
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: So what motivates you when tackling challenges that engage people?
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: You know?
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: we are the company that gets stuff done, and I like that.
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: I like the fact that we have an unbelievable team.
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: Often I'll say I'd want something I can't be done.
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: I'm like, all right, we we'll talk to you on Monday and they'll have a solution for me, and so it's always that.
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: It's like the.
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: It's the ability to you know we take these challenges, we see what our customers are looking for and we create something out of nothing, and it's done because we have this incredible team of people who are just off the charts smart and they can figure stuff out, so that's the most fun we have during a day.
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: Great.
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: What do you draw inspiration from?
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: What lights your fire?
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: You know it's about legacy.
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: So if we're successful with our Pay With Points network in a couple of years, everyone's going to be using their points everywhere and there are only a couple of companies doing it and our team's going to be able to look back and go hey, we helped build that, which is something cool that you know don't often get to do and stay in a career.
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: What is your favorite sport or hobby?
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: You know it was tennis, probably Santa cycling, soccer, whatever anything where you're out with people and it's enjoyable, right.
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: What do you typically think about at the end of the day.
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: All the stuff I didn't get done during the day.
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you, jonathan.
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: Thanks for taking the time to speak with us today on the Leaders in Customer Loyalty Industry Voices podcast.
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: It was great getting your perspective on customer loyalty and we look forward to learning more from you and the team and engage people throughout the rest of this year.
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: I want to thank everyone for tuning in to our leaders and customer loyalty podcast series.
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: If you haven't already, please subscribe to the podcast.
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: Follow loyalty 360 on YouTube and LinkedIn.
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: Please remember to come back every Tuesday for another edition of our Industry Voices series.
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: If you have questions, don't hesitate to reach out.