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What women are actually desperate for from men #4 · Free Therapy with Ben & Kevin

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: The world is free therapy. Hey everyone, welcome to free therapy.
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: I'm Ben and I'm Kevin.
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: And every week Ben and I sit down with a
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: different therapist to talk about the stuff that most guys
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: are going through but nobody says out loud.
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: This week we brought in doctor Sarah Or, who was
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: awesome and she really didn't hold back in anything that
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: she was telling us. She works mostly with women, which
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: means she has a front row seat to what men
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: are getting right and what they're getting wrong, so we
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: tried to ask her everything we possibly could.
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  Speaker 2: We got into things like what empathetic masculinity could actually
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: look like, how to be strong and vulnerable at the
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: same time as a man, and even what women mean
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: when they say they just want to feel safe.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: So if you think you know what women actually want
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: from men, you definitely don't. That's why you're listening to
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: this podcast. So I would recommend just tune into this
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: one and enjoy.
• 0:47
  Speaker 3: You might get surprised. Let's enjoy the show.
• 0:52
  Speaker 4: I don't talk to that many men anymore, so it's
• 0:56
  Speaker 4: great except my husband. Wait, why because I mostly treat women?
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, there was like a reason, like I don't
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: want to talk to men anymore. Yoh, well you know
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: I don't.
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  Speaker 3: I don't speak with men.
• 1:09
  Speaker 4: Well it's not that's not not true.
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: But yes, a lot of words do you miss engaging
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: with men? Like I mean that had a sexual men.
• 1:20
  Speaker 4: I think I miss it. I do. But also I
• 1:24
  Speaker 4: purposely aligned myself to like treat women because I felt
• 1:29
  Speaker 4: really challenged in my therapeutic interactions with men. Frankly, like
• 1:34
  Speaker 4: during my training, just felt like it just didn't It's
• 1:39
  Speaker 4: just harder to break through, and I just feel more validated,
• 1:43
  Speaker 4: heard understood, like I can sort of connect more easily,
• 1:47
  Speaker 4: and this more for patients, but also like the people
• 1:50
  Speaker 4: who are really important to me in my life and
• 1:53
  Speaker 4: I connect with. So it's a mixed bag. But I
• 1:55
  Speaker 4: think part of it has been the difficulty in like
• 1:58
  Speaker 4: feeling like a breakthrough. And actually it was really meaningful
• 2:02
  Speaker 4: for me because I had two boys. I have two
• 2:05
  Speaker 4: boys and a girl, and I had a lot of
• 2:09
  Speaker 4: gender disappointment when I found out that I was pregnant
• 2:11
  Speaker 4: with boys just because yes, it all comes from difficult
• 2:19
  Speaker 4: relationship with my dad. We can get into it, but
• 2:21
  Speaker 4: I think that's a setup and today's world of what
• 2:25
  Speaker 4: I see, especially with tech guys is like a toxic
• 2:28
  Speaker 4: masculinity that makes it really hard to feel like connected.
• 2:33
  Speaker 4: There's something about masculinity right now that is so such
• 2:37
  Speaker 4: a caricature and there's no sort of feminine connection or
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  Speaker 4: elements that I feel really gravitated towards. But I'll tell
• 2:46
  Speaker 4: you it's not that I don't want to engage and
• 2:48
  Speaker 4: hear from men and men's perspectives. It's just like I
• 2:51
  Speaker 4: need more softness, and Elon Musk is not providing.
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: The examples that the role models that most men have
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: are not that for you.
• 3:03
  Speaker 4: No, this is why, like Harry Styles is coming back
• 3:06
  Speaker 4: and I'm not like a gigantic Harry Styles fan, but
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  Speaker 4: the Internet is like women are starting to talk about
• 3:12
  Speaker 4: this and everyone's just like it's like this, Harry Styles
• 3:14
  Speaker 4: is coming back when we need him. But this is
• 3:17
  Speaker 4: really example of like a very there's something quite feminine
• 3:21
  Speaker 4: in his masculinity.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: I think there's some people like that today, Like I
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: think Benson Boone is a good example.
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  Speaker 3: I'm super masculine.
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I even think like Travis Kelce is a good
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: example of it too, And so I think it's becoming more.
• 3:36
  Speaker 4: Great example of it, you know, it's Taylor Swift, like
• 3:39
  Speaker 4: her life is not centered around him, and he is
• 3:43
  Speaker 4: able to sort of center things around her, which I
• 3:46
  Speaker 4: think is really like a breakthrough.
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: I think what's interesting is like if you tell a
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: guy center around her, yeah, he's gonna like be He's
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: gonna want to hold on tighter, you know. And I
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  Speaker 2: think Travis does a great job of he has his
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: own life. He's a fucking yeah, super successful one of
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: the but also that he can he he doesn't have
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  Speaker 2: a problem letting her shie.
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: Can I add more men that I'm inspired by since
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  Speaker 1: we're on this.
• 4:12
  Speaker 4: Myst is very sure and it's, by the way, just
• 4:15
  Speaker 4: bad bunny.
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  Speaker 1: When you leave here, it's gonna be much longer. Because
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: growing up, I did not feel like I actually had
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: role models. I was sensitive, I was bullied, So it's
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: very hard for me to find men that I could
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  Speaker 1: be like, Oh, I look up to them and I
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  Speaker 1: like them. It was like one of the others. So
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: I've actually taken account every time I see some that
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: I like in my head, like Andrew Garfield, Oh love Oh.
• 4:37
  Speaker 4: I also love the way that he talks about his mother. Yes,
• 4:41
  Speaker 4: I think to me, I mean that I don't cry
• 4:43
  Speaker 4: that often, and like seeing him talk about sort of
• 4:48
  Speaker 4: experiences with her, his memory of her is like okay, yes, yes, yes, yes.
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: This one is obvious, but you're not thinking about it.
• 4:55
  Speaker 4: Timothy shallomeh, I'm going to disagree on that one.
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: That he's not healthy in how he perceives himself to
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: other men based off of what we saw a long
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: time ago.
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: Comparative to Andrew Donald Fair, I mean that's.
• 5:15
  Speaker 4: So. I think what he said about childless people, I
• 5:19
  Speaker 4: think is is problematic. Recently, Chappelle had this.
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: Great line in one of his specials a while back.
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  Speaker 2: He was like, we need to become comfortable with the
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: idea of flawed allies.
• 5:30
  Speaker 4: Yes, oh yes, yes, you fantastic.
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  Speaker 2: Like if someone's like supporting your cause but they like
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: had a slip ten years ago.
• 5:38
  Speaker 4: Yes, you know you're on the his first movie where
• 5:42
  Speaker 4: he got really famous, that one about a boy. No, now,
• 5:45
  Speaker 4: the one that that he had like, you know a
• 5:48
  Speaker 4: lot of sexy scenes in Yeah, the Italian I forgot
• 5:51
  Speaker 4: what that was, but I feel like that's a predecessor
• 5:54
  Speaker 4: to heated rivalry of seeing like, you know, men in
• 5:58
  Speaker 4: sort of gay sexual relationships and being like, oh, that's
• 6:03
  Speaker 4: that's okay. Hey, I'm kind of turned on by that.
• 6:06
  Speaker 4: And it's two men. You know, it's like, this really
• 6:08
  Speaker 4: interesting and it doesn't sort of change anything about how
• 6:10
  Speaker 4: I perceive his sexuality. And he's like, you know this
• 6:14
  Speaker 4: main character guy energy in Hollywood?
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: Are you attracted to a masculine masculine man? I don't
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: know your husband.
• 6:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah, So I went on the first day with my
• 6:22
  Speaker 4: husband and that was the first question I had when
• 6:24
  Speaker 4: I left. I was like, is he confident or arrogant?
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  Speaker 4: And I'm not sure?
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  Speaker 3: Okay, what's the difference to you? What's the difference to me?
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  Speaker 4: Arrogant feels like no insight, like you think that you're
• 6:37
  Speaker 4: just the shit, but you actually don't have that much
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  Speaker 4: to back it up. And confidence, to me feels like
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  Speaker 4: you have things that you're proud of, but you have
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  Speaker 4: insight into the things that you need to work on
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  Speaker 4: and how you can become better. And to me, it's
• 6:52
  Speaker 4: always been like I need someone who can kind of
• 6:56
  Speaker 4: really be excited about all the things they have to offer,
• 6:59
  Speaker 4: but also know that they're so much to grow, right
• 7:02
  Speaker 4: and that life is continual growth.
• 7:05
  Speaker 3: I like that. So confidence has an element of curiosity.
• 7:08
  Speaker 4: Yes, and openness.
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you can admit when you're wrong, yes, right,
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  Speaker 1: Like that's like a man never wants to be like,
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: oh I was wrong because then there's like some shame
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  Speaker 1: with not being right or whatever. But an arrogant guy
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  Speaker 1: has a hard time admitting he's wrong.
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  Speaker 3: Right.
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  Speaker 4: Oh yeah.
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: We talk about like this idea of masculinity so much
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  Speaker 2: and you write up toxic masculinity and like what that is?
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  Speaker 2: And to me, like confidence can be the confidence that
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: we all think about when we think confidence, Like Tim
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: Desham is confident, but you can also be confident about
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  Speaker 2: your mistakes.
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that is attractive. Yes, like I fucked up?
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  Speaker 3: Yes is confident?
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  Speaker 4: Know that and I'm going to change my position on things?
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  Speaker 3: Yes?
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  Speaker 2: Right, Like that is a nuance that I think people miss.
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  Speaker 2: They like confidence is not arrogance is I'm always right.
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  Speaker 2: Arrogance is it's always.
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  Speaker 4: What I want, what I do, and I have nothing
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  Speaker 4: to learn.
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  Speaker 3: Right, You can be confident and very.
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  Speaker 4: Vulnerable, And it's the vulnerability. I think that's the piece
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  Speaker 4: that's really so meaningful today. But I think it's really hard,
• 8:05
  Speaker 4: and I understand that it's a really hard battle for
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  Speaker 4: men to understand how do you kind of toe the
• 8:10
  Speaker 4: line between I'm confident and I am you know, self
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  Speaker 4: assured and I also have these this vulnerability and I
• 8:16
  Speaker 4: can cry in front of you. But I think that's
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  Speaker 4: what women are aching for.
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: If a man crying in front of a woman is
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: the most vulnerable he can get, which is challenging for
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I love to cry, and it's hard for me.
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  Speaker 1: But how do we help people even become a little
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: bit vulnerable to open them up to crying? Like what
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  Speaker 1: would you say, are a few things that look like
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  Speaker 1: vulnerability early on that can get you to safety and
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: crying and et cetera, et cetera.
• 8:45
  Speaker 4: I think you hit on something interesting of like I've
• 8:47
  Speaker 4: made a mistake or here's where I know this is
• 8:50
  Speaker 4: a shortcoming of mine or a reflection of like God,
• 8:53
  Speaker 4: I said that or did this, but like you know
• 8:56
  Speaker 4: I and that you thought about it, that you had
• 8:59
  Speaker 4: and and I think that shows a vulnerability and like, hey,
• 9:03
  Speaker 4: I am aware of my behavior, and here's what I
• 9:05
  Speaker 4: think happened. Listen, Crying isn't like a prerequisite, but I
• 9:09
  Speaker 4: think there's something so interesting and I'm just always I'm
• 9:14
  Speaker 4: always going to bring it back to Benito but I
• 9:16
  Speaker 4: think what's really interesting is people are going crazy that
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  Speaker 4: he like cried on stage in front of fifty thousand,
• 9:24
  Speaker 4: you know, and then the whole internet, And I was like, huh,
• 9:28
  Speaker 4: that's really fascinating. I think people are really attracted to authenticity.
• 9:31
  Speaker 4: So if it's not authentic for you, like, please don't
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  Speaker 4: fake cry in front of anyone. No one wants that.
• 9:37
  Speaker 4: But I think what's the missing piece is making sure
• 9:41
  Speaker 4: that people and men know that there is softness at
• 9:45
  Speaker 4: the other side to catch it right, that I can
• 9:47
  Speaker 4: sort of accept your softness and not reject it as like, ooh,
• 9:51
  Speaker 4: that's not that's not what I want, right, that your
• 9:54
  Speaker 4: tears I can sort of hold that. I can say, oh,
• 9:58
  Speaker 4: this must be really difficult. We have and this happens
• 10:01
  Speaker 4: actually even in our practice with postpartum in particular, we
• 10:07
  Speaker 4: have in heterosexual relationships, dad has to be kind of
• 10:10
  Speaker 4: the rock while the mom goes through all of this.
• 10:13
  Speaker 4: But guess what, the dad's also becoming a father for
• 10:15
  Speaker 4: the first time, and there's a there's a chance that
• 10:18
  Speaker 4: they can get postpartum depression as well. But no one
• 10:21
  Speaker 4: is asking, hey, how are you, are you sleeping? Are
• 10:24
  Speaker 4: you okay? But this is a great example. And I
• 10:27
  Speaker 4: saw this thing. Yeah, it's hard to tell with all
• 10:30
  Speaker 4: the things you see on the internet, but I saw
• 10:33
  Speaker 4: one of a of a person that identified as an
• 10:36
  Speaker 4: inceell and had like red pilled or whatever. And what
• 10:40
  Speaker 4: got him out of it was, I think, being upset
• 10:43
  Speaker 4: and someone coming up to him, a woman and kind
• 10:46
  Speaker 4: of being there for him in that time. And he
• 10:49
  Speaker 4: was like, Oh, that's weird because this whole internet's told
• 10:52
  Speaker 4: me that a woman's never going to be here for
• 10:53
  Speaker 4: me and support me through this. And that was sort
• 10:56
  Speaker 4: of the switch human interaction. It wasn't a chatbot.
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: How do you reconcile with the endless insanity of the world,
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: like the endless chaos, the endless sadness of what people
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: are going through.
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  Speaker 4: What's really hard here is that most of that chaos
• 11:21
  Speaker 4: is being created by unhinged men period.
• 11:28
  Speaker 5: Yeah it's a great yeah, yeah, totally okay, men who
• 11:32
  Speaker 5: men who probably have a hard time being vulnerable with
• 11:35
  Speaker 5: their partner and see that as shameful.
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: But is that it's a generalization. But both are both
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: are big, they're both big statements.
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: What does that information have to do with the problem
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: and the solution?
• 11:51
  Speaker 4: I think what's really hard is that it alienates women
• 11:54
  Speaker 4: from wanting to engage, from wanting to fix, from wanting
• 12:00
  Speaker 4: to be because it feels so destructive. So I'm thinking
• 12:03
  Speaker 4: about this problem that's coming up right on diary of
• 12:07
  Speaker 4: a CEO about in cells and that they won't have
• 12:10
  Speaker 4: anyone to mate with, essentially as how they were. But truly, like,
• 12:14
  Speaker 4: if if you have all these destructive ideas about women
• 12:18
  Speaker 4: and the world, I don't want to get near that.
• 12:21
  Speaker 4: I don't blame any women that doesn't. And so there
• 12:24
  Speaker 4: is this commiserating and is having a boyfriend embarrassing? Now
• 12:29
  Speaker 4: that article that that sort of went viral is a
• 12:32
  Speaker 4: great example of like, when it's not cutting it, women
• 12:36
  Speaker 4: are lamenting like I wish I was a lesbian. I
• 12:38
  Speaker 4: can't tell you how many times I've heard that.
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: You hear that in your practice, I wish I was
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: a lesbian. They're not like actual.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: Women who have been our resection like love men men
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: like I wish I was a lesbian?
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: Is it I wish or it would be easier if
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: I would.
• 12:52
  Speaker 4: Be easier, But I tol them. It's really not. It's
• 12:54
  Speaker 4: not ill treat it enough. Women that are in partnerships
• 12:59
  Speaker 4: with other women. It's complex to say the least.
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: Okay, so how do you respond to that?
• 13:04
  Speaker 4: Well, we kind of try to dig into this, you know,
• 13:06
  Speaker 4: it's it's people start to kind of think, right, these
• 13:11
  Speaker 4: men are all men, and that's not the case. And
• 13:14
  Speaker 4: it's that most women that you'll meet will have had
• 13:17
  Speaker 4: an instance of sexual assault one of four. It is
• 13:20
  Speaker 4: probably more, frankly, that all builds on itself where it's hard,
• 13:24
  Speaker 4: where it's almost like, okay, well, where's that goodwill to
• 13:27
  Speaker 4: then sort of help men out of this situation? And
• 13:33
  Speaker 4: I think the truth is it starts with parenting. I'm
• 13:37
  Speaker 4: hoping as a parent to young boys, there's a you
• 13:40
  Speaker 4: can cry, cry, be angry, have emotions because I think
• 13:45
  Speaker 4: often what we're seeing at the tail end with these
• 13:47
  Speaker 4: adults that aren't able to sort of leave their computers
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: or their porn or whatever to meet people is that
• 13:53
  Speaker 4: they were probably told you have to be hard, tough, successful,
• 13:56
  Speaker 4: make money, or else you have no value. And I
• 13:59
  Speaker 4: think that's part of the what we have to flip.
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: Back to, like the like, how does a man show
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: vulnerability and relationship with a woman, Like crying is there? Right?
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: But I would even say I challenge, like everyone that's listening,
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: that's a guy. If that feels like it's out of
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: the realm of possibility, because it probably feels like I
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: would never do that, is what someone would.
• 14:21
  Speaker 4: Say, reveal their emotions or yeah, like how you connect
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: right every guy?
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: By the way, guys, it's totally cool, you can do it.
• 14:28
  Speaker 4: Oh my god.
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: But I would say, here's a really a really good
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: step to getting there. I think start telling your best friend, yes,
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: things that you're ashamed to say to other people, see
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: how they receive it.
• 14:40
  Speaker 4: Or a therapist. You can pay someone to practice this interaction.
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: I know this is called free therapy.
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: No, but I think you're to your no. But but
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: to your point, I think even a guy getting into
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: therapy is a challenge. So crying in front of a
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: woman a challenge. Getting into therapy a challenge. What every
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: guy has. They got a fantasy football buddy, Yes, they
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: got someone in their text right that they're talking about
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: stocks with. They got somebody that they trust that they
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: grew up with. Just try telling them one thing.
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: I think it's a nice idea, but people are that
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: aren't used to it, are terrified to do it with friends,
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: men and women.
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: Like, I have a friend, a female friend who.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: Like she has you know, has all these things about
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: being single and not being in a relationship, not having
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: kids at all, and and I'm like, do you talk
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: about this with your friends?
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: She's like no, why would I do that?
• 15:33
  Speaker 4: Right, So friends are maybe married off or something, not.
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: All of them, a lot of them are not.
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, they definitely feel the same way, and
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: if you talk to them about it, they would empathize,
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: they would share how they feel the same way. But
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: they're all just terrified to be honest with each other.
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: I know, and someone else is definitely going through the
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: exact same thing. They're going through the same exact thing.
• 15:53
  Speaker 4: This is where connecting in person is so important and
• 15:56
  Speaker 4: where I think really are our issues are with technological overload.
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: I just want to.
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: Uh, Like you know, people like start a business, and
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: I want to start a village.
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: That's my business, A village, a village like Idaho village.
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: Like get a village and doing that and start.
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: A you have a library, you have a post office,
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: you have you have something like a space where people
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: can work, and it's a village. And then you get
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: five hundred people to move there, a thousand be talking thousand, being're.
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: Talking about a kibutz.
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: I'm talking about kiboots. I'm talking about it.
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: You're talking about what we did a thousand, I'm talking
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: about that is the best business.
• 16:35
  Speaker 4: But then how does it not change and sort of
• 16:37
  Speaker 4: devolve into what it is now?
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: There are commitments that you make as by being like
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: it's a religion. No, No, there are commitments you make
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: where like or there's.
• 16:46
  Speaker 4: Just bilage person.
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: Yes, there's like technology like internet in the in the
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: village shuts off. At how fucking epic would that be
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: if literally there was no wife, if I or cellular
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: service in the village, and there's every house is an
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: emergency phone.
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: You wouldn't want that.
• 17:04
  Speaker 4: No, if high schoolers weren't glued to their phone, they
• 17:08
  Speaker 4: could actually see how yeah, woman or a girl here,
• 17:13
  Speaker 4: guy here can support me and we can be together.
• 17:15
  Speaker 4: But they're so glued that they sort of go down
• 17:18
  Speaker 4: these rabbit holes instead of just being like, Hey, what's
• 17:22
  Speaker 4: this community? What can I get support? Yes? I think
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: men are more and more isolated because of the digital
• 17:29
  Speaker 4: tools like porn, for example, has made it so like,
• 17:32
  Speaker 4: oh well, this is so much more exciting than like
• 17:35
  Speaker 4: any sort of real partner I'm going to have. Why
• 17:37
  Speaker 4: not just stay here and never go outside.
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: You have a guys, have no idea that porn may
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: seem amazing wait till your phone love right, I'm telling you, like,
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: you think porn is amazing.
• 17:46
  Speaker 4: Vulnerable with someone and then like get to have a
• 17:49
  Speaker 4: sexual relationship with them, Oh my god, Like that's the Yeah,
• 17:52
  Speaker 4: that's the holy grail.
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking about like fifteen or sixteen year old Ben,
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: fourteen year old band who's just introduced to porn, who
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: is like, oh my god, my imagination is running wild. Now,
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: there wasn't like social media then, so it's different. But
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: then it's like, oh, of course you would think that's
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: the only thing. But little do you know, I'm thirty
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: six now, so twenty years of past. I'd rather be
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: in love and never watch porn again. Yeah, but you
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: know fourtuneate o event woud never believe that.
• 18:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's just I think all of this stuff is
• 18:24
  Speaker 4: moving at a pace that parents cannot keep up with,
• 18:28
  Speaker 4: and mental health providers can't and educators can't, and so
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: I think it just presents a really big issue. But
• 18:35
  Speaker 4: if we think about what has changed in the last
• 18:38
  Speaker 4: twenty five thirty years to create this sort of in
• 18:42
  Speaker 4: cell culture. I think we have our answer. Probably it's technology.
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: Probably. Okay, two questions I want to ask you one,
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: But you said, is having a boyfriend embarrassing or is
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: it just the behaviors of the boyfriends? And what type
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: of behaviors are we seeing that is actually causing these problems?
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: And then how do we create better behaviors that could
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: align with a more emotionally available man that would contribute
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: to making women feel more safeel we're proud to have
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: a boyfriend.
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: Safe. I mean that's such a great word. Safety is
• 19:16
  Speaker 4: something I think women are really like desperate for.
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: What does feeling safe look like?
• 19:23
  Speaker 4: Safe means well, first of all, feeling like bodily body safety,
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: right that I'm not going to be drugged, armed, right,
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: that I'm not going to be taken advantage of, overpowered, etc.
• 19:34
  Speaker 4: So that's like on a very basic level. But then
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: outside of that, it's emotional. It's that I can kind
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: of say I have these issues or I have these fears,
• 19:42
  Speaker 4: or hey, I'm like worried about X, Y and Z,
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: and to actually be validated, to be heard, not just
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: like how to solve the problem or oh you're just
• 19:50
  Speaker 4: so jealous, like stop being jealous, but actually heard communicated like, oh,
• 19:54
  Speaker 4: you know that makes sense that I'm liking all these
• 19:56
  Speaker 4: girls in bathing suits on Instagram, Like I see how
• 19:59
  Speaker 4: that may not be respectful to you. But I think
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: in some ways you've kind of There's a couple of
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: things of why why boyfriends are embarrassing. The first is
• 20:09
  Speaker 4: which I actually think is a good thing. Women feel
• 20:11
  Speaker 4: like they don't have to center their lives around men anymore.
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: This is this is problematic though for the dynamic if
• 20:19
  Speaker 4: you don't need to depend on a man for resources
• 20:22
  Speaker 4: and to provide, what does a man contribute to a relationship?
• 20:30
  Speaker 4: So what we want or well what does okay?
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: Can you expand on that?
• 20:35
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so like if you would say a lot, but yes,
• 20:37
  Speaker 4: a lot, but I think if but if you have
• 20:42
  Speaker 4: this nineteen fifties perception of like the man makes the
• 20:46
  Speaker 4: money and goes out to work and the woman is
• 20:48
  Speaker 4: at home and taking care of the kids, I think
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: that's not happening. Obviously, there's more women getting higher education.
• 20:56
  Speaker 4: There's more women in medical school now than there are men.
• 20:59
  Speaker 4: So women are getting degrees, women are outperforming men. In
• 21:02
  Speaker 4: terms of professions and income. So once that is sort
• 21:06
  Speaker 4: of in an equal footing, what do you need from
• 21:08
  Speaker 4: a partner? The needs are more emotional, right, The needs are, oh,
• 21:13
  Speaker 4: pick up the slack at home, do some of the chores,
• 21:18
  Speaker 4: help with the kids if we have them, right, it
• 21:20
  Speaker 4: starts to change what the requirements are. And so when
• 21:24
  Speaker 4: men can't kind of step up to those, I think
• 21:28
  Speaker 4: some women are like, well, what's the what am I
• 21:29
  Speaker 4: doing here? On? What's the point? Right? And that's that's
• 21:32
  Speaker 4: some of the embarrassing part. And then the other part
• 21:35
  Speaker 4: I think in that article and specific it was like
• 21:38
  Speaker 4: they're like not posting the men because they're afraid they're
• 21:42
  Speaker 4: going to find out, you know, they're going to get
• 21:44
  Speaker 4: DMD by a bunch of girls he's dating you know,
• 21:46
  Speaker 4: he's dating me too, and what that's like or sort
• 21:49
  Speaker 4: of the the things that you can kind of find
• 21:54
  Speaker 4: out on the internet that can be saddening, or that
• 21:57
  Speaker 4: they're still on Riyah or whatever it is. Yeah, I
• 22:00
  Speaker 4: get it screwed up totally.
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: That makes sense.
• 22:02
  Speaker 4: They don't want to be embarrassed. They don't want to
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: be you know, like they don't want to be ashamed
• 22:06
  Speaker 4: of that choice. But I also think in some ways
• 22:08
  Speaker 4: it's not a totally bad thing. It's also women want
• 22:11
  Speaker 4: to be the hero of the story, not just like
• 22:14
  Speaker 4: the sidekick, right, not just the woman behind the man,
• 22:17
  Speaker 4: but also like achieve on her own.
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: So in that world where that is happening, how does
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: a guy show up? So like, how does he show
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: up differently? What does it mean to show up well
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: as a guy in that environment?
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: You know what?
• 22:33
  Speaker 4: I think there's a part of it that's like, figure
• 22:36
  Speaker 4: out what your values are, what's important to you, and
• 22:40
  Speaker 4: be clear about them. If you really don't want to
• 22:42
  Speaker 4: settle down and you just want to have sex, say
• 22:44
  Speaker 4: that to someone because there's plenty of women that may
• 22:47
  Speaker 4: just want that too. But don't pretend like you have
• 22:52
  Speaker 4: some other end goal when that's not consistent because you
• 22:57
  Speaker 4: think you can get her in bed. Yeah, right. And
• 22:59
  Speaker 4: I think, like, just be true to your word. Don't
• 23:03
  Speaker 4: date five girls and pretend like you're exclusive with one.
• 23:07
  Speaker 4: Just be consistent, Like your word has to mean something.
• 23:11
  Speaker 4: And I think we've lost a little bit of that thread.
• 23:14
  Speaker 4: And I think this is a really interesting conversation because
• 23:17
  Speaker 4: I do think women love men, or you know, heterosexual
• 23:21
  Speaker 4: women love men. And want to be with men. But
• 23:24
  Speaker 4: I think it's just like just be consistent, be values driven,
• 23:29
  Speaker 4: be kind of whole to your word and not else
• 23:32
  Speaker 4: to describe it.
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I just think like if you think about what
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: is being a man mean? Right, Like even I would
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: say one hundred years ago, it was what you're saying,
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: own your word, and so I just think that today
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: some of it has gotten lost in the way.
• 23:50
  Speaker 4: The dynamics were different, right, because there was like I'm
• 23:52
  Speaker 4: going to support you, I know, but you're going to
• 23:54
  Speaker 4: stay at home.
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: But even if the dynamics were different, the message is
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: the same. Yeah, And I just think that guy is
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: now women have higher expectations of men. So because they
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: have higher expectations, men actually can't get away with as much,
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: which I think is great, like great more opportunities for
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: amazing guys, yes to get better women who were settling
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: or picking a guy who looked a certain way or
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: had money and not giving the nice guy a chance.
• 24:24
  Speaker 4: So you know what, I hope that that's changing.
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: Well, I think it's changing. I'm actually I'm positive it's changing.
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: It because every guy thinks that a girl wants a
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: guy who's six feet and has a lot of money,
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: but all girls want is a guy who listens and
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: asks follow up questions.
• 24:39
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's so interesting that that sort of started to
• 24:42
  Speaker 4: happen to me, probably when I was in my early twenties,
• 24:45
  Speaker 4: that you have this idea of what the man is
• 24:47
  Speaker 4: that you that you need. And I once said, I'll
• 24:50
  Speaker 4: never date a bald guy. Ever, there's no way my
• 24:54
  Speaker 4: husband isn't. But the guy that I did before, well
• 24:56
  Speaker 4: then he was like it was.
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: Like a thing for you, Like that was like a
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: rule that Yeah.
• 25:00
  Speaker 4: I was like, you know what people and the like
• 25:01
  Speaker 4: when when you're young, you just think like right, or
• 25:04
  Speaker 4: they have they you know, they have to be a
• 25:06
  Speaker 4: certain height, like you said, or a certain I don't know,
• 25:09
  Speaker 4: a certain title and you meet the right person and
• 25:13
  Speaker 4: it just sort of goes away. Also, ladies when when
• 25:16
  Speaker 4: when they're bald, there's a lot of testosterone going on,
• 25:19
  Speaker 4: it's not necessarily.
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I actually do have Oh I got my function results,
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: but he's.
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: But still softness. But I think you know it it
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: really right, right, not not in that department. But what's
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: really important is that, like I, once you get what
• 25:40
  Speaker 4: you need, you're so flexible in the other areas. And
• 25:44
  Speaker 4: psychological flexibility is something that we at at sort of
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: the company that I have that that does mental health.
• 25:50
  Speaker 4: That's one of our key components in how we help
• 25:53
  Speaker 4: people in their mental health is once you start sort
• 25:56
  Speaker 4: of getting away from the rigid ideas of what it
• 25:59
  Speaker 4: is that you need or want and you have some
• 26:01
  Speaker 4: more flexibility around the possibilities and aligning with your true values.
• 26:07
  Speaker 4: My true values is not a head of hair right right,
• 26:12
  Speaker 4: or like how tall someone is. That's not that's not
• 26:14
  Speaker 4: a value. But when you get down to the values,
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: then you really kind of come to oh, this actually
• 26:20
  Speaker 4: makes sense for me. I hope the nice guy is
• 26:22
  Speaker 4: getting more opportunities. There's so few of them.
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: I could listen to this advice too. In my dating, for.
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: Sure, you have some rigid ideas of what or expectations. Yeah,
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: I know love is blind. Though you know it doesn't work.
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: I don't know it doesn't. How many of ever, I
• 26:41
  Speaker 4: don't make the show like the first season when when
• 26:43
  Speaker 4: people didn't know what it actually was. Show doesn't work.
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: It's for us to watch and last it show doesn't work.
• 26:50
  Speaker 4: But I think there is something to when you align
• 26:53
  Speaker 4: yourself with your values. That's the core of what actually
• 26:58
  Speaker 4: makes happy.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: I agree, and what if you just you could also
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: say not everyone's values are the same when it comes
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: to dating, so you never really know what a girl's
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: preferences in a guy are. So maybe if you're afraid
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: of your height or.
• 27:15
  Speaker 4: Your looks or aas or ethnicity.
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: Her number one could be humor, her number one could
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: be this, And so we're just preferential to our values,
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: assuming they have the same ones. But like I've learned enough,
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: that's not the case. And so the guys that maybe
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: feel less confident, it's like you're actually making that up
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: in your head, completely based off of your own skewed
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: perception of what you like.
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: Yes, yes, so many reactions.
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: I love a nerdy guy. Yeah, so many nerdy guys.
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: I'm not cool cool, And it's like, well, they're actually
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: looking for you, not the cool guy that's going.
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: Up to them all the time.
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: When I think about people dating, I'm always like, challenge
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: your type. If you think you only like blondes, like
• 27:56
  Speaker 4: challenge it because you will be surprised and if anything,
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: you'll just learn more about yourself and potentially like a
• 28:03
  Speaker 4: kind person that may be cool. Maybe not your match,
• 28:06
  Speaker 4: but I think always push yourself to kind of question
• 28:10
  Speaker 4: the things that you hold on to really rigidly.
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: Okay, So obviously you have people getting married later, having
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: kids later, but specifically.
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: Like mating later, yes, and partnering later. And so.
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: I think what happens there is that you know yourself
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: a lot better. Oh, you've gone through more, You've gone
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: through the ups and downs, you've gone through challenges, you've
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: gone through break up, more breakups, more of all this shit.
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: And so because you know yourself better, you know what
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: you like, you know you don't like, So you have
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: all your preferences, and you've gotten really good at getting
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: your preferences met.
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: Yes, because you.
• 28:43
  Speaker 4: Know, hopefully there are some psychological flexibility so in case
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: you don't, you can communicate yes.
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: And so I think that's what's interesting, is like hopefully
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: there is that. And I catch myself all the time
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: without that. And then I saw this comic that I love,
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: and I friends because I had to.
• 29:02
  Speaker 4: I love that. Yeah, nice, yep, it's good, we'll.
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: Throw it out there.
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: But like to me, sometimes I feel like this, like
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: I have friends who are so simple, yeah, and and
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: I almost am envious that that's their puzzle for partnering
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: and for a relationship, and I go, I'm I am
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: this often and like, how would I assume women have
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: the same problem? Yes, And how do you when you're
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: working with the client, how do you like walk them
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: through this?
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: Like, what is it about filling in the holes of yourself?
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: What is it? How do you do you do that?
• 29:41
  Speaker 4: I think that's a great I think people sometimes are
• 29:44
  Speaker 4: looking for another half instead of doing self work, You're
• 29:48
  Speaker 4: looking for someone to fill a void that really like
• 29:52
  Speaker 4: you have to figure out and do the work on
• 29:55
  Speaker 4: your own. For me, for example, in my personal relationship,
• 29:59
  Speaker 4: I I do have daddy issues, so a lot of
• 30:01
  Speaker 4: it is sometimes like I want that person to kind
• 30:04
  Speaker 4: of step in. And in my therapy, what I've realized
• 30:08
  Speaker 4: is like I am I have to be my own
• 30:11
  Speaker 4: mom and dad, Like I have to grow those parts
• 30:14
  Speaker 4: of myself, not look for someone else to sort of
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: be those parts for me. And so I would say,
• 30:20
  Speaker 4: I think sometimes that takes like, oh maybe I don't
• 30:23
  Speaker 4: need this from another person. I may need this from myself.
• 30:27
  Speaker 4: And honestly, I think the people that sometimes think they're
• 30:30
  Speaker 4: so complex and can't find another person is is sort
• 30:34
  Speaker 4: of maybe wanting too much from someone else like you can.
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: You know, sometimes I want more like validation and that,
• 30:43
  Speaker 4: like that warm and fuzzy from my husband, and he's
• 30:45
  Speaker 4: just not that. And so guess what doesn't mean I'm
• 30:48
  Speaker 4: gonna leave him, but it means that we're working on
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: sort of improving that communication. But maybe I get more
• 30:53
  Speaker 4: of that validation from my girlfriends, from my therapist. You know,
• 30:58
  Speaker 4: I'm not telling him like all of the I as mothers.
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: It's like a very anxiety provoking time that we're in
• 31:04
  Speaker 4: in this country. But I'm not like going to him
• 31:07
  Speaker 4: to tell him about that because I know he doesn't
• 31:09
  Speaker 4: sort of resonate in that same way. He has a
• 31:11
  Speaker 4: different worldview. He's just not as histrionic as I am.
• 31:16
  Speaker 4: So when I need someone who's like, ah that, I
• 31:18
  Speaker 4: go to someone who's more like.
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: That sounds nice. How do you decide that those attributes
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: of your partner are.
• 31:25
  Speaker 4: Enough good enough, thank you. It's also like we've kind
• 31:28
  Speaker 4: of been fucked up to think that there's this idealized
• 31:32
  Speaker 4: kind of like romantic love. I think too many rom
• 31:35
  Speaker 4: coms all of that is is is I think harmful,
• 31:39
  Speaker 4: And I think there is this element of like safety
• 31:43
  Speaker 4: and maybe it isn't this like, oh my god, I'm
• 31:46
  Speaker 4: on cloud nine and it's this love affair that I've
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: never experienced. You maybe have had some that with someone
• 31:51
  Speaker 4: in the past, and you had like great sex and like,
• 31:54
  Speaker 4: but that's not everything, and sort of seeing what it
• 31:57
  Speaker 4: is that you need now. Who would be a good
• 31:59
  Speaker 4: if you if you're thinking about settling down, who'd be
• 32:01
  Speaker 4: a good partner to have children with? Who would I
• 32:03
  Speaker 4: want to have this like huge job with? And I
• 32:06
  Speaker 4: hope I have some romantic sort of inclination. But I
• 32:09
  Speaker 4: think people forget that love grows, that it doesn't always
• 32:13
  Speaker 4: have to be like on fire. And actually, for my
• 32:16
  Speaker 4: for choosing my husband, like it wasn't the most passionate
• 32:20
  Speaker 4: I had ever felt initially and that has grown for us.
• 32:25
  Speaker 4: But I think I chose a very good partner for
• 32:27
  Speaker 4: this stage of my life, and I hope we're together
• 32:31
  Speaker 4: for a long time. But like, who knows divorce rates
• 32:35
  Speaker 4: fifty percent?
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: Are there elements that you see your clients deciding partners
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: based on that you being married with three kids are like,
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: that's not important, no.
• 32:46
  Speaker 4: Because everyone, I mean, if it's important to you, it's
• 32:48
  Speaker 4: important to you. But if it's like a physical attribute.
• 32:51
  Speaker 4: I think i'd push you a little bit of like,
• 32:53
  Speaker 4: where is that of value? Okay, it's got to be
• 32:56
  Speaker 4: blonde in five.
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: Times may Maybe that's a different way.
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: Were there traits that you were looking for in a
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: boyfriend before you were with your husband today?
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: Yes?
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: That now that you have your husband, we're like, those
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: were not important? These are what are important?
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: What are you?
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: Maybe they were important then, like when I was twenty two,
• 33:13
  Speaker 4: Maybe that's what I needed to kind of like experience
• 33:16
  Speaker 4: at that time when I wasn't going to settle down
• 33:18
  Speaker 4: or have kids. So who you're looking for at that
• 33:20
  Speaker 4: time is very different. Yeah, and maybe they're more wild
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: or more like, you know, risky and adventurous and like
• 33:28
  Speaker 4: that's really fun. But then I think when it's time
• 33:32
  Speaker 4: to make this decision, and so it's really interesting where
• 33:34
  Speaker 4: people where I think timing is everything and the partner
• 33:37
  Speaker 4: that you're looking for in that time may look very different.
• 33:40
  Speaker 4: I don't think types are static or what you're looking
• 33:42
  Speaker 4: for a static.
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: That's good.
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: I agree.
• 33:45
  Speaker 4: Now I just want to hear all about you two
• 33:47
  Speaker 4: and your dating lives.
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: I think there's an opportunity here. We talked about how
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: men have a really hard time being emotionally available in general,
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: and how do they get better at it and you
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: get better at it in friendship, I think it's a great
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: opportunity to share something here. So I think for me
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: it was very hard to feel seen in general in
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: the world because I had my own struggles, and it
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: helped me to open up to a close guy friend, right.
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: And I think that version of opening up to a
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: guy friend can be the beginning of vulnerability for a
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: man in a relationship with a woman.
• 34:25
  Speaker 4: But how do they know that the print's going to
• 34:27
  Speaker 4: receive it?
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: Here we go, this is where this is where it works.
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: It is very clear for a man when he feels
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: emotionally safer than when he doesn't, when he feels competitive,
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: when he feels aggravated, when he feels like it's a
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: show off. Obviously you're not feeling emotionally safe. Cool, You're
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: you're in your work environment, You're you're at the gym
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: playing basketball. Find So what it feels like is, oh,
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: I feel like I could just talk to someone about
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: how my day was going and they can listen. Right,
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: That's like the basis of an emotionally safe So when
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: I think about my guy friends the way totally. The
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: men are obviously a little bit later here, But what
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: I think for a guy to look out on is well,
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: how do I start to share things? And what is
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: sharing him look like? So I think it can be
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: as simple as someone's like if someone sees an article
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: online that you just close the really big deal and
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: everyone's gassing you up because you close that deal and
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: they're hyping you up, and you ask your buddy, your
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: buddy goes, yo, congrats on that deal, and then instead
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: of saying I'm the fucking man, you say, dude, that
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: deal almost broke me. I cried two days before and
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: I almost had a panic attack because I didn't think
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: it was going to go through And if the deal
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: didn't go through, I would have to fire people, and
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: I would hate to let people down. That is such
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: a common thing that men are going through. I have
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: friend so many businesses who are like I had a
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: panic attack because of EPs. Even if you just open
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: up to a guy about that, you're starting the conversation
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: that guy's going to be like, bro, I've been there,
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: and the you're gonna be like, oh, you have.
• 36:01
  Speaker 4: But this is actually it's almost like revolutionary in the
• 36:06
  Speaker 4: way that you're saying it, because men have been taught
• 36:09
  Speaker 4: and even women in business, don't ever show your cards, right,
• 36:13
  Speaker 4: don't ever be vulnerable. Always show strength. That's being a man.
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: And it's not right.
• 36:21
  Speaker 4: This is right, this is right on, and that's like
• 36:25
  Speaker 4: clear like room for connection. And I would say, like
• 36:29
  Speaker 4: that is what women want. I don't want someone telling
• 36:32
  Speaker 4: me how great it is and like that they can
• 36:34
  Speaker 4: do everything perfectly. I want someone to tell me I
• 36:37
  Speaker 4: did it and it was really difficult.
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And the honesty doesn't actually change anything for you
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: because you are whole as you are with your entire experience,
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: so your vulnerability doesn't actually change. It feels like people
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: are going to look at you different, so something about
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: you's going to change, but nothing changes.
• 36:56
  Speaker 4: Nothing change but the.
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: Fear of something that perceives who you are. And then
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: that person doesn't look at you different. Kevin doesn't look
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: at me differently, And I'm like, okay, cool, I can
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: start with other people.
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I love that. It's easy when you have a
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: friend you've known for so long. Is the reality?
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: For sure?
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: A lot of people even here at.
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: At the space we were out of that, you know,
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: everyone has these sort of blanket judgments on based on
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: how someone looks or you know, how they act and
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: Harris and you're like, oh, that guy is like pretty
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: tough and he's not. And it's like, over and over
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: and over, my imaginary projections of what someone else is
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: like get broken down when I have like a real
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: conversation and I'm like, oh, you're just a fucking yeah,
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: you like look cool and you dress like cool, but
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: you're also just like struggling and you've got a bunch
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: of shit going on and you're trying to fucking hustle
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: and make things work.
• 37:49
  Speaker 3: And every time I'm like, oh, that's nice, and you
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: know what's funny.
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: And I'll call you can I call Ben out. I'm
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: gonna call Ben out real quick because this happens here.
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: But also every and I do the same shit and
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: the other way around. But sometimes, like, there will be
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: someone like that and I'll be like, I really like him,
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: and I'll be like, really, because one of us and
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: the other the reverse happens as well. You'll say it,
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: I'm like really, and it's because one of us has
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: gotten to know that person on a real level and
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: that person's opened up and the other one's still sort
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: of sitting on the outside, on the sidelines and in
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: the bleachers being like, really that guy, da da da, Yeah,
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: And I just think it's so it's such a good reminder.
• 38:28
  Speaker 4: It's a great reminder. And I think this is where
• 38:31
  Speaker 4: the real life interaction means so much more because I
• 38:35
  Speaker 4: think and listen, men use social media differently, but certainly
• 38:38
  Speaker 4: for women, it's becoming young women in particular, very competitive.
• 38:43
  Speaker 4: You see these like your feet is your literal highlightly real,
• 38:48
  Speaker 4: like you see every good thing that's ever happened to you,
• 38:51
  Speaker 4: every beautiful wedding you've been to in Italy, and you're like,
• 38:54
  Speaker 4: and I'm stuck here, like working my ass off, and
• 38:57
  Speaker 4: this what you're saying, like gets through to the realness.
• 39:02
  Speaker 5: Yeah, look at that.
• 39:06
  Speaker 4: That's so special.
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: This is great. I feel great. What do you feel?
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: I feel great?
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: How do you feel great?
• 39:14
  Speaker 4: Best podcast I've ever done?
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: So fun?
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: Wait say that again without Kevin interrupting you.
• 39:18
  Speaker 4: Best podcast I've ever done, Sarah, so fun.
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: Thanks for coming on, really appreciate.
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: So much for having coming.
• 39:24
  Speaker 4: What are you guys gonna do next? Where is this
• 39:26
  Speaker 4: gonna where's the season gonna go?
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: Where's it gonna go man, it's gonna go all over. Hey,
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: thanks for listening. We appreciate you.
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: If you enjoyed this episode and us embarrassing ourselves and
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: talking about our feelings, you are definitely going to like
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: everything else.
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: Follow on on Instagram at free therapy and we'll see
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: you next time.