Latest / To All the Men I've Tolerated Before / Witchcraft

Transcript

Witchcraft · To All the Men I've Tolerated Before

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Hetty tolerators. This is to all the men I've tolerated before.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: With Nambley Katona, your weekly look at everyday misogyny. Today,
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: we have a celebrity. Today we have Aaron Bagwell. Oh
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: my gosh, I wrote my friend's last name in the
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: intro and I'm like, that's not her last name. My friend,
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: Aaron Bagwell, the Buffalo Medium, herself from the podcast and
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: the Substack and under the Moonngate. Aaron is another joy
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: in my life who was brought to me by the
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: Glamorous Trash book Club. You'll recognize her from Fixing Famous People,
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: her documentaries, her guest on Glamorous Trash. Truly a celebrity,
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: and she's doing me the honor of finally allowing myself
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: to talk about how misogyny affects the craft. And by
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: the craft, I mean the witchcraft, because I've never gotten
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: to do this topic before. Aaron's thank you so much.
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: Yay, thank you for a beautiful intro. I don't know
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: about celebrity, but I guess on the Fixing Famous People,
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: I'm like, uh, I'm like a friend of so I'll
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: take I'll take that credit for sure.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I think when I'm on fixing. Famous people like
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: the fixes or the fixers just like brace themselves because
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: I'm so manic and they're like, oh, it's gonna be
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: this lady.
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: I loved your Chrisprat episode. I thought it was great.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you. And you've never watched Charmed. I
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: don't want to blow up your spot right away.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: I know, Nat. I was thinking about that actually, like
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: minutes before we came here, and I was like, oh god,
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: I didn't. I haven't watched any I have no like
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: witch media to witch ground into grounding. Yeah, and you know,
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: I was thinking about it. I was like Sabrina the
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: teenage Witch, Like where did it come from in my psyche?
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: I don't know. Yeah, I haven't seen Charmed, haven't seen
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: any of the real witch movies. Seen hocus Pocus. There
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: you go, that's something. And I've seen the one with
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: crazy that man Nicholas, Oh no, not Nicholas. Oh and
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: share and quick, yes, thank you. The Witch is Astwick?
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: Who is Who's that man?
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: Who is that man? Jack Nicholson, Jack Nicholson. He was
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: actually harassed Jennifer Lawrence on a red carpet one day,
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: but she liked it, so it was fine.
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: Well didn't he also like like get off in a
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: memoir of Somebody's by somebody else walking in the bathroom
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: at the Playboy mansion, Like I have that ingrained in
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: my brain too.
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean he's not He's not someone i'd want
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: to be alone in a room with. Sure.
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, And although Cher does have his baby picture from
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: that movie.
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: I hope she's doing like ritual stuff with it. I
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: hope it's somewhere.
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: You know. He very famously like turned on her and
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: was like, she's too old to be in this movie.
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: She's a hag, Like, don't have her be in it,
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: she's not sexy enough. And then when they were pretty
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: much like we're hiring her, like get over it, he
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: like fell in love with her. And I guess they
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: used to have these really long cast like pow wows
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: where they would just like get into it and share
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: and him became like great friends. And she has his
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: baby picture in her bedroom. Weird.
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: Weird. Also, I tried to read The Witches of Eastwick
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: as because my book club picked it one time, and
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: it is the most sickening male gaze bullshit you've Like
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: within the first five pages, I was like, oh, I can't.
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: I cannot, I I'm out.
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, they definitely they didn't give themselves any favors.
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: They also filmed that movie in the summer, which makes
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: no sense, like it's all green and summary like it.
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: They very much missed the mark seasonally, So I feel
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: like that's I mean, that's screams malgaze to me when
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: you can't get a season right.
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I am so interested on how you came to
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: witchcraft and how it even entered your psyche because mine
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: is all pop culture. Yeah. I wanted to live out
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: practical magic.
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: Yes, and then also haven't seen it.
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: Also, haven't seen it, and it's fine because we're going
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: to fix it one day. I'll fly out and we'll
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: watch it together.
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: Sounds great.
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: I So I wanted to live out practical magic. And
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: also at a low point in my life, I read
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: The Witch of Portobello, which is written by the same
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: guy who wrote The.
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: Alchemist and yeah, Alchemist, Yeah.
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: And this woman had such a deep understanding of herself
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: and how she interacted with energy and the earth and
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: people and what she brought to the town and the
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: collective energy or whatever that I based my entire meditation
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: practice around it perfect. And then I just started to
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: become a lady who said things like I have to
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: buy this necklace because the crystal keeps calling me.
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: I'm there, girl, I'm there, I got it.
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: I have to buy the tarot depth because it keeps
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: ending up in my vision like it's it's you know,
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: it's coming, it's coming to me. So how did you
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: find your spark? You know?
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: It's funny. I may not have like had all of
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: the media training, perhaps, but I think that And I
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: don't know if my mother would co sign this, but
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: I think she's a witch. I once went to a
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: bar with her and we were waiting for a table,
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: and she like very nonchalantly like set a spell out
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: loud and was like that rhymed about like trying to
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: move us up through the line so we could get
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: a table, and then we got a table. Like my
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: mom very much believes in magic, like so deeply, and
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: I think just growing up with that kind of whimsy
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: like place that spark in my psyche. Yeah, and then
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: you know, really, I think meditation changed my life when
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: I learned how to meditate, because I started to see
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: things in my life happened that had never happened before,
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: and things just felt more in alignment, and I don't know,
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: I feel like it's been a real gateway. Taro is
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: a huge part of my practice. But I will say
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: I've always done spells with fire. Oh, I'm very attracted
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: to fire in like the intention setting way, burning things,
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: writing them down, and I've done that my whole life.
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: But I really just recently started to get into more
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: tangible spell work, if you will.
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I would love to be drawed to fire because
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: I love watching fire and I love being Like my
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: cousin's having a bonfire this weekend and that'll be great.
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: Me being in charge of the fire freaks me out, like, oh,
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: I shouldn't like if it's above like a candle burning
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: in the entire time a candle is burning and I'm
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: trying to close my eyes and meditate. I'm also like,
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: is Penelope touching the candle? Is the candle somehow blowing
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: fire into my curtains? Like what is going on with
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: the candle? So I've been I switched over to water
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: to just not stress myself out anymore.
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: Sure, sure, sure, yeah, yeah, I like I like the
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: igniting of it. I think it kind of opens something
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: in me, and I don't. I don't have a fear.
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: I don't think of the burning down of the things
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: I mean, which I probably should more honestly, No.
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: I mean it's probably just something that my med Like,
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: my meds aren't soothing away the anxiety of like it's
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: my mental illness. It's not something you should worry about, understandable.
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: But yeah, I started doing a lot of moon water,
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: a lot of yeah, soaking of my intentions soaking stuff
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: to cleanse it.
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: What do you mean by soaking? Like, are you putting
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: it in a cauldron? Are you in the bathtub? Like?
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: What's so?
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: I don't have a cauldron? Yeah, but on my list. Also,
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: don't have one on my list. Have you heard that
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: crystal balls are maybe problematic? Now devastating?
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: Oh? Really?
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: No?
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: Tell me?
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: Well, so I got this information like third hand from Reddit.
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: Critical role came out with a spooky game and it's
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: called Candela Obscira and it's a role playing game. And
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: one of the characters that you can like build a
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: character out of is a medium or a mystic. And
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: Spencer said something along the lines that Spencer Stark is
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: the creator of the game, and he at a d
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: at a game Master like talkback, said something along the
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: lines of, when we were developing Candela, you know, it
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: came to our attention that some people might view the
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: way that people depict crystal balls as appropriation of the
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: Romani traveler culture. And you know, now the G words,
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: a slur and all of it, and like that's evolving.
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: And he said, however, I do think that there are
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: ways that you can use it that isn't appropriating it.
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: I think it's it all comes down to, like what
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: artwork looks like like, and what the woman using the
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: ball looks like like? Is she and a headscarf? Is
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: she like covered in coins? Is she like as Morelda Just.
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: When you say gee word, do you mean gypsy?
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: God, I got it.
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah.
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: And you know what I just learned about that word.
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: I don't mean to cut you off, but that people. God,
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna get this story wrong. It was basically, when
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: a group of people I can't remember where they're from,
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: let's just say they're from somewhere in Europe, moved into
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: like Ireland or somewhere else. Yeah, people assumed that they
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: were from Egypt, so they called them gypsies. It was
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: like a shorter version of Egyptian. Yeah, and that was
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: like the but because they brought mysticism with them. You know,
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: the word gypsy kind of like the word which then
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: becomes this caricature of a culture or exactly, and you know,
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: then thus becomes problematic when you're using it as a slur.
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: And things like that. So then like Spencer was just like, so,
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: if you're going to use it in the game, like
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: make sure that you know how to use it in
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: a very appropriate manner, or you have that discussion with
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: your players or whatever. And then I had to get
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: out on and rend it because I was like, when
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: what Crystal balls? Because my my rule as a white
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: woman is I never get to choose what's problematic. I'm like, okay,
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: if you've said it, it's fine, sure, yeah, yeah, And
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: so it all boils down to the characterization of a
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: spiritual background or an ethnic group or whatever. In Dayton,
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: there's a really great cemetery and yeah, what a thing
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: to say. There's a really great cemetery to go walking
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: around and Paul Laurencetu is buried there. The right brothers
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: are buried there. But I would go and I would
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: pay homage to Queen Matilda because she's buried there in
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: dat Ohio. Cool. Yeah, So I would leave like coins
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: and intentions and like just like talk to her for
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: a little bit and just be like, what's up, girl,
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: It's me your girl, and I'm just leaving you some
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: trinkets because you like trinkets, and I'll be on my way.
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: And I used to live that, and there was a
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: little boy who was buried there with his dog because
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: his dog tried to save him from the flood drowning
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: and so on. The crypt is the statue of the dog,
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: and I used to leave the dog treats.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: Ah.
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: That's beautiful, just something fun to do on my lovely
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: walk around the cemetery.
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: I'm with you. I think cemeteries can be so beautiful
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: and I don't feel a lot of I mean, there's
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: energy there, obvious, but most of it, I feel like
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: is of people who are grieving you behind a lot
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: of energy, but I find them to be so peaceful
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: and so beautiful and such a nice I don't know,
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: I feel like we don't do a lot of remembering,
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: so yeah, it's nice to have like a physical space.
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: It's a very settled energy like, it's not real amped,
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: it's not really anxiety indusane, it's you know, settled, because
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: what settles you more than death, I don't know.
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: Just during the pandemic, when we couldn't really walk around
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: too much, I was in Brooklyn with my daughter, who
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: was about one and a half at the time, and
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: one of the playgrounds were closed and one of the
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: only places, the only public spaces we could really get
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: to from where our apartment was was the cemetery, and
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: so we used to have these really long winding I mean,
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: this was a giant cemetery. It had a fish pond,
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: it had a Japanese garden. I mean, it was absolutely
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: manicured to the helt. It was gorgeous. But I have
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: such visceral memories of just like walking around the cemetery
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: and hanging out and having nowhere else to really go.
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: Well, when I was trying to find my grandmother and
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: my grandfather's grave one time, my sister had just been
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: with my mom, and that's why I went because I
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: was feeling petty that they went without me, because I
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: was like, maybe I have things to tattle to Grandma
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: about you guys, because you guys can't act right. So
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: I went to do that by myself, and I texted
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: my sister. I was like, hey, how's the easiest way
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: to find like Grandma and Grandpa? And she went creepy
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: Jesus and I went, no, I just pack and I
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: went no, I just passed creepy Jesus. And she goes, no, No,
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: not creepy Jesus at dinner Jesus whose eyes follow you
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: around the park. And I knew exactly where that was
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: because I remembered it as a kid. Yeah, nks, yes,
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: but you had asked me what I do with water,
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: and then we went along the way. But I so
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: I usually just use bowls that I have like special
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: connections too, or like little spell jars if I'm going
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: to keep it on my altar, and I just write
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: out my intentions and then I just like submerge them
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: in the water and I let the water wash away
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: the ink and kind of like more immortalize them and
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: the energy. And then if I'm really good and organized,
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: I throw the water out in the like earth, yeah,
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: just to further ground it. And if not, I just
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: pour it down a drain. You ever freeze anybody? Oh yeah,
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: oh yeah, I'm very lone.
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah, you got some people in
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: your freezer.
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that was one of the first spells that I
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: ever did. And to people who don't know, you can
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: write someone's full ass name on a piece of paper
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: and then put it in a baggy and freeze that
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: baggy full of water in your fridge and they're not
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: allowed to bother you or your energy anymore until you
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: saw them out. Yeah, indeed it was. It was a
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: woman who I couldn't be friends with anymore because she
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: had a lot of transphobic ideals and she was trying
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: to be like I'm just trying to be like realistic
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: about grammar and what my daughter is going to grow
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: up knowing is true. And I was like, okay, I'm
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: done here, Like I literally like, yes, I just made
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: my exit. I was like an aunt to her baby.
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: I was like, we were like our lives were pretty ingrained,
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: and I was like, and I'm done. I can't. It's
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: a bummer. It's a bummer when people are secretly transferred.
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah.
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: So that's what I do with the water, and it
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: gives me the same because I used to try with
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: the fire because to me, that's more permanent because it
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: actually burns into either, but it still gives me the
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: same result of like that.
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no rules. Whatever resonates, you know, whatever feels good,
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: whatever speaks to.
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: You when you were because I have kind of gotten
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: this cool seat to your like real calling to not
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: only practice witchcraft, but to do it out loud, like
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: on the internet and with other people. When you decided
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: that this was going to be something that you committed too,
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: was there something specific you were like looking for since
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: there are no rules and we just get to pick
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: and choose what we do.
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: What a great question. I mean, I think I was
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: looking for myself. I think so much of my spiritual
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: journey is about remembering who I am and honoring my
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: past lives. And I definitely know that I was burned
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: at one point and I have felt it in a
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: past life regression. And I have a deep commitment to
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: you know, my previous self of being able to use
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: my voice. And I will be honest, I was really
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: really scared to come out and to talk about my
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: mediumship and my you know, dabbling into witchcraft and learning
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: about it for my new documentary. And I was really
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: I had to really reckon with this feeling of not
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: being safe and being safe at the same time and
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: really understanding what it means to me. And unfortunately, I'm
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: a person that really finds that when I I find
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: the truth of something, that I can't let it go too.
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: And so it really like consumes my identity in a way,
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: and I have to fully step into it because if
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: not that I feel engulfed by shame and then that
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: triggers my depression. And it's just the way I'm wired
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: that I like to live out loud and I like
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: to just be able to be free. Yeah.
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: I think so much of what you're saying is things
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: that I felt decentering misogyny and men for my life
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: where it's like I finally get to connect to myself,
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: I get to understand myself better, I get to live
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: a truth that is mine. And I think what's so
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: cool is you are in a position where that's all
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: happening through the craft. For me, it just happened out
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: of like anger and spite and which craft came way
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: before that. Yeah, But when I was building a practice,
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: it was because I wanted to be the one who
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: was in charge of what spirituality looked like to me,
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: and I had I was done teaching at I used
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: to teach at a Catholic school, and Mass during May
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: used to bum me out because May is the month
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: of Mary, and like the way we talk about Mary
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: bums me out because it's just telling like little girls
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: that like if you're perfect and virginal, that like you'll
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: get whatever you wanted.
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: And God knows, there's no stories about Mary. I'm a
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: recovering Catholic as well, there's no stories about Mary. Mary
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: has no stories except for her you know, pregnancy, and
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: she barely is even in that one, you know.
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: And in my mind, Mary's the coolest like bitch of
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: all because like she got herself into a real tight spot,
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: probably not by her own choice, and came up with
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: like the coolest gotcha's story ever. I was like, an angel?
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: Did this an angel? I promise it was an angel? Angel?
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: It was an angel. God. It's like I'm baiting myself
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: for like bad reviews for people to be like she
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: literally called Mary a liar, but like, you know, no
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: one's lied to get themselves out of something, like it
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: was either a lie.
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: Like angels were, you know, And I believe in angels now,
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: but angels were a very powerful, you know thing to
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: call upon. Joan of our same story, she said, you know,
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: the angels, they were talking to me in the garden,
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: and now I got to go like take over France,
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: like this is I've been told the message, and you
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: guys get out of my way, like we got to go.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: Well. So one of my very first ever witchy stories,
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: I think I told you when we were in Nashville,
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: when I foresaw that my aunt was going to have
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: not only a boy, but a very cranky boy, like
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: a very grouchy boy, and she should name him Oscar
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: the Grouch. And my cousin had a lot of collic
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: as a baby, so he was always screaming and always angry.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, look like someone was right
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: grouchy baby. And my great aunts literally being like to
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: my grandmother Peggy, the angels are talking to her, and
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: my grandma and my mom being like, way to get
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: your aunts all worked up. I'm like, three, why are
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: you getting your aunts all worked up?
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: You know, it's funny how we define these things, right,
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: It's like, you know, sure why except people call it spirits,
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: some people call it angels. Some people call it, you know,
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: who knows what it's And I have the double whammy,
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: like the double almost like.
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: Authority because I'm born on Christmas, so they're like Jesus
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: and the angels are talking to Natli are Christmas Baby,
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: our baby who was born when Jesus was born.
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there you go.
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: Uh. And what I found out later in life from
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: a friend was solstice babies, So I'm born during the
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: winter solstice usually lend themselves to psychic moments and mediumship
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: and being able to foretell and foresee the future.
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I think everybody has the ability, it's just whether
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: or not they want to step into it and explore
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: it and practice it and be open to it.
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: And yeah and yeah. So when I was building my practice,
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: it was like it was because I was like, I'm
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: so sick of religion with men in the male gaze
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: in religion and what they've decided is cool. And you
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: and I have the same really heavy book about the
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: entire history of women being in the center of spirituality
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: and how ancient cultures used to practice spirituality through women
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: and it was colonization that ruined it, and I just
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: wanted to get back to that.
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think it is bizarre to
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: grow up as a woman and I feel like you're
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: preaching my story too, Like to grow up and just
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: feel like where are the women? Like where are the
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: deities and where are the leaders? And it just it
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: felt to me. And I think also because I'm kind
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: of an ambitious person. You know, when you're sitting in
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: the church and you see all these men running things,
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: You're like, well, where is my place? Yeah, you know,
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: and I just never felt really comfortable. You know. I
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: could tell some Catholic school horror stories as well of
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: just like feeling not included and not and looked down
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: upon and underestimated. And one of the things that I've
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: been really pondering, so I'm making this movie called The
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: Resurrection of the Witch, and one of the things that
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: I'm really interested in is how we get back to
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: our devas. Yes, because if men get to look at
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: Jesus and God is a he, how does that enhance
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: you know, the privilege of their spiritual development? What do
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: we get? Yeah, you know, we get to be the mother,
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: we get to be the sinner, we get to be
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: the prostitute. You know, there aren't a lot of places
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: for us. So I'm just I'm so curious about how
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: we can give women access to divinity and what that
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: would feel like.
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: And I think that was also as I started to
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: actually like talk to other people about the craft and
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: get resources and actually get beyond the Sandra Bullock of
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: it all of just being like, I want to live
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: by the sea and I want Stocker Channing to make
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: me Midnight Margarita's and they be magical. I want to
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: be Agatha all along. But I when I started looking
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: into it, but yeah, it was getting women to feel
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: empowered in their own selves because so much about our
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: culture and our society, post colonialism and post capitalism being
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: real chill, is that women are so disempowered in our society.
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: And I grew up watching a lot of powerful women
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: take back power in their lives through things like sarcasm
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: and doing things on their own and independence and kind
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: of doing like, you know, maybe not so great secret
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: things to get back their power, like you know, I'm
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: gonna get mine at the end of kay. And I
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: was a kid who like loved the Anne Bolin story
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: and the Ava Parone story and these stories about women
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: who took a hold of their sexuality and then weaponized
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: it against nations again, like Anne Bolin was literally like,
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: and now we don't like the pope because you want
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: to have sex with me, and kan Henry the apel
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: is like yeah, and then like she like sometimes Aneboln
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: is one of my deities, Like I'm like, she is
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: one of the most powerful, which is ever?
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean I've heard of so many successful political
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: movements based on women who just do sex strikes. Yes,
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: and nations in towns and countries come together and they say, Okay,
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: enough is enough. If if XYZ doesn't happen, we will
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: not have sex with you, and they're they're extremely effective.
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: Mm hmmm.
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: I wish I had, you know, Kimmy kay S number.
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: I could call her up and say, Babe, we could
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: get so much done, like get you know, cut them
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: off for a month and see what happens. The nation
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: would grumble, Yes, well, have you heard of before bee movement?
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: Are you on that side of TikTok? No? What is
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: this before Bee movement? I believe I'm not going to
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: get the country right. I know it's I think it's
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: an Asian country, but all of the women, or a
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: good portion of them just unincluded men from everything. They
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: just moved away from men. They stopped sleeping with men,
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: they stopped raising children with men, they stopped talking to men,
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: listening to men. They were literally like, we deserve a
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: life without men.
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: And and because TikTok is a thing now, women over.
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: Here are like, oh shit, we got to get our
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: communities together. Yeah.
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: And I was like, because my friend Annie, who's on
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: the podcast a lot, she and I talk about it
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: all the time about like when we get our fellow
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: women who are done, and we go and we live
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: in the woods with our cow and our goat, but
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: we each have a cow and a goat because we
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: don't want to share, and we want two goats and
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: two cows, and like it's just us and women and
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: maybe Wi fi. Like it's something that I truly crave,
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: because when you are in a society that is just
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: built of women for women, you get like it's that
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: safety net that you were talking about where you just
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: get to feel safe. I don't know how to get
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: this across to the men in my life about why
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: we feel so unsafe in our culture.
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: My husband walks into the room sometimes and I scream,
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: oh my gosh, like constantly, and he's a nice one. Yeah,
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: and he's my hut, we've been together for ten years.
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: This is not this man's not a stranger, but there's
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: and he's always like it's me. You're like, it's a
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: big joke in our family. But like, as a woman,
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: you know when you if you see somebody and you
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: know it's a man, energetically, you know you can sense, yes,
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: somebody coming into your house, that's a man. I mean
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: he came home from band practice the other day and
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: I like dived behind the couch, Like it's a weird. Yeah,
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: part of our that do even you know, amongst those
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: we love and no won't harm us, it's a weird
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: we have a physical reaction sometimes to you know, the
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: safety of that's man. There's a good Instagram video of
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: another wife like screaming at at her husband. Also, I'll
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: try to find it and.
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: So please please send it to me because I mean
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: it's so true, because again it's not it's not you
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: personally that's making me afraid. It's literally the history of
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: violence against women. Like, yeah, I don't get the like
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: I don't get the sweet release of just going ah
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: and today I can go to target and be one
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: hundred percent safe. It's not it's not my reality.
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't tell you how many times I've been
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: walking home and like just started running because I was like,
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: I don't know. That guy's like kind of behind me,
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: and I don't know, and I just I'm just gonna run.
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: And you know what, I'm just gonna run going to
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: the grocery store after dark because I didn't like loading
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: groceries in my car and have to have my back
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: to like a majority of the parking lot or truly
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: like anyone man. And my aunt was flabbergastid when I
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: told her that, and she goes, I've never thought of
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: it that way, And I was like, I think about
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: women's safety all the time, just all the time, and
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: then like it compounds into trans women's safety, fellow queer
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: women's safety, non binary people's safety. Like it's always something
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: that I am constantly just weighed down by and I
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: don't know how to stop it. And I think sometimes
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: that like the morning pages I do is my daily meditation,
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: just helps me get it out, and once it's out,
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: it doesn't get to have like a hold or a
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: power over me. So that's how the craft and artist
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: weigh and things like that have started to help me
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: be more one with an energy. I should deserve space
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: and yeah, absolutely, Like I made a joke. Well, I
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: used to tell this cat. This to my cat openly.
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: I used to tell her all the time. I used
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: to be like, Penelope, that's why I will never live
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: with a man, and there will be no men in
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: this home. And then we moved in with my dad,
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: who has the misfortune of being a man. Yeah, and
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: Penelope won't look at him like I broke a like
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: I broke a promise. Like she's like, you told me
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: this wasn't something we were gonna do.
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's complicated.
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: The energy is bad here. And I was like, yeah,
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: I know, it's fine, Like it's fine, but I yeah,
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: let me look at my Oh. We were going to
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: talk about depictions of witches just across the board. Yeah,
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: And how the new, the new trendy way to talk
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: about the same witch trials is they didn't burn witches.
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: They burned women. Yes, and it's very powerful to say that,
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: but it also kind of like wipes out my history.
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: But also maybe they got one witch in their rounding
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: up of the witches or whatever, but it was literally
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: just I mean what we're doing now in covens and
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: meditation circles and yoga classes and things women gathering.
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, Well the crazy thing about Salem and I
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: haven't been before, but you know, it's so interesting the
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: history of that that it leaves such a mark in
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: the United States because it was only a couple of
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: dozen women, right, you know that were I believe hung
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: or drowned. They didn't burn women in the United States, right,
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: And it was over one hundred thousand women in Europe.
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: I mean communities, towns, I mean, people were wiped out.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: And the jarring thing is, I think to your point
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: about being a community, it's like you could accuse anybody, right,
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: Like there was no tangible you know, evidence or information.
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: It was like that person looked at me the wrong way.
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: And as we know from structures of power, you know,
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: it was such an easy thing to abuse, you know,
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: these marginalized women in the community. And one of the
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: interesting things about the visual depiction is women who used
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: to run breweries. So they women did all like the
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: cooking and the things like that. Do you know the
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: story about the Ale wives.
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: No, tell me the story.
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: So they it's really interesting. So you know, women were
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: in charge of all the herbs and all the spices
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: and all the kitchen stuff. Well, they were the ones
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: that brewed beer. And oftentimes if you were a single
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: woman and you brewed beer, you could make an income
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: off of it. So these brewers, these women would wear
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: these big hats that we would know as a witch hat.
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: And oftentimes if you you know, were brewing beer and
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: you had a lot of oats and things like that,
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: you'd have a cat because the mice would come and
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: you'd have a lot of you know, stuff you needed
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: to protect. So like, but it's interesting that that's linked
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: to financial independence for women. And that's like one of
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: the first depictions of like we know women to be
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: familiars with cats, and like these women who lived on
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: their own, yes, had cats, who wore these hats, who
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: were these brew masters. Like that's one of our kind
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: of ideation places for things we know about the witch.
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: And there's so many different visual depictions I will say,
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: you know, throughout media. The other one that I will
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: just nerd out about is for the Wizard of Oz,
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: Pam Grossman shares that you know, the only reason they
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: painted her skin green was because of it was one
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: of the first technicolor films, and they wanted pink, they
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: wanted green. But like that doesn't exist anywhere in history
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: anywhere else, the fact that women had these green faces.
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: So I think that's fascinating because that's something that we
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: just clung onto, right, and we're like, this is it.
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: This is the vision of the Witch.
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because after Wizard of Oz, it was the teacher
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: from the Black Lagoon kind of has like a green
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: that's a kid's book from like the Kids of Beverly
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: Elementary or something. It's a book I read in elementary school,
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: but like she has a green tinge.
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it became a part of our culture. I mean,
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: it's one of the most famous movies in the world.
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: So yeah, but we also forget that Galinda was a witch,
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: which is also kind of interesting, right, right, because she's.
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: A hero and listen the Wiga Witch of the West,
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: which thank God for Wicked because then it gave us
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: like a little vindiction and justice for her. She's literally
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: just pissed off because a house full on her sister,
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: Like she's grieving. Give her a moment, Yeah, give her
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: a moment, her a moment they melted her in her grief,
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: You pissed.
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: If somebody's smashed the house on my sister, I'd be
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: I'd be a bitch.
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: Too, And then stole her fancy shoes.
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, an heirloom, a family.
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: Hairlom, familyom I mean, And you're right, we don't often
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: we call her like Glinda the good but yeah, but
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: we very rarely even extended to Glinda the good Witch
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: and gives.
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: A lot of fairy energy too, like yeah.
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: And one of her first lines to Dorothy is are
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: you a good witch or a bad witch?
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: I know it's interesting. We just clung to the bad. Yeah, bad, bad,
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: bad bad bad Well.
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: And I think that's it too, because one of my
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: running jokes is like I'll say, hey, I haven't dabbled
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: in the dark for a while, but every once in
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: a while it's still calls. So if you want me
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: to curse his name. One time I got an excess
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: cat to run away from his house and a girl
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: to break up with them all in one chant. Wow,
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: I know, I know. I got the news while I
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: was out of town, like I had burned pictures of him,
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: I had put on fleetwood mac and Stevie Nicks. I
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: had cussed out his entire name and the next day
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: his cat and his girlfriend were like, we're sick of you,
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: and I was like, I did that. Wow wow wow
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: wow wow wow.
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: That's a way to dig with Yeah.
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: So every once in a while I try not to
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: curse people because you know, walk in the light or whatever.
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: But sometimes the dark side does have cookies, you know.
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: I'm really interested in like exploring my shadow work for sure,
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: and getting right with my dark side. But it's funny
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: because I'm a Scorpio rising, I feel like I put
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: so much of my dark out already. I never really
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: I don't have to dig far, do you know what
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: I mean. I'm very attracted to darkness in the way
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: that I think culturally we're like afraid to talk about
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: anything bad.
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Sometimes I view this podcast as a lot of
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: my shadow work, just because of how much comes up
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: that was like either dark in my life or dark
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: in a guest life, or dark about the world at large.
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: And it does make me like I've had to sit
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: with women and walk through that moment where it's like
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: I thought everything was fine, but you turned that sentence
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: on me, and it's happened to me too, where I've
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: told a story and someone's like, in twenty twenty four,
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: we call that roomin and then you have to sit
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: there and be like, yeah, oh that is what it is, okay, right,
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: And so yeah, a lot of just and I'm sure
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: it comes up in your work too, but just talking
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: to people and hearing the things that they've gone through
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: in the shame that's put because I think that part
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: of it is too, is witchcraft gave me a reason
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: to feel powerful.
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: I was just thinking the same thing that it's kind
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: of this beautiful gateway when you do feel you know,
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: underestimated or unseen or unsafe, to get back power, and
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: to not only get back power, but to like stand
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: in the presence of something that some people are afraid
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: of that some people to this day like when you
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: say it, it sends a shiver up their spine. And
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: I think there's something really cool about women occupying that
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: space because it's so I don't want to say that
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: power foreign to us, but it's not something that's so
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: easily given, and doing the craft is something you have
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: to take.
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: M and it's something that even if you're not recognizing it,
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: if you have it in you. It draws itself to you.
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: My sister has recently found out that you can just
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: get rocks off the internet and they're pretty.
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: You can get rocks in your own backyard too. Listen,
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: you should see me digging out there and like going
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: on nature walks and.
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: You have a tumblr. No, oh, you need to get
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: a tumblr because they get prettier. That's my favorite part
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: of TikTok is watching people tumble rocks.
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: Oh shit, yeah, okay, all right, add to cart, Add
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: to cart. There's children and a tumblr. I know my
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: Christmas list is going to be oh I asked for Yeah,
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: I have one in a box somewhere around here. They're loud,
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: so you have to figure out a way to not
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: let it be loud because you have to run them
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: for days on end. And I hadn't figured that out yet.
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: But this summer or this winter, it's just gonna be
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: rock tumbling all day every day. You know what I've
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: been into is flower pressing.
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: Oh I saw that on your story today. I love
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: the secret language of flowers. That that's how people used
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: to communicate feelings and messages and things like that. Just
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: like a little sneaky witch trap language of flowers. I
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: used to press a lot of flowers too. I don't
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: get that many flowers anymore, but I used to press them.
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: But tell me about your sister. She's on the internet,
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: she's buying, she's on the internet, she's on etsya. She's like,
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: they'll send you any rock that's pretty. And I was
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: at our house one day and she had her little
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: silver dish full of rocks, and.
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: She had to make a point of being like, I
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: don't think that they have power, like you think that
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: they have power. Like I don't think they do anything.
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: I just like to hold them and look at them
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: and then I feel better. And I went, okay, but
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: that's it. That's the whole thing. Yeah, Like that is
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: what it is. And she goes no, and I'm like, okay.
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: I have the embarrassing story of my daughter getting off
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: the school bus and when my sometimes when my daughter
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: gets nervous, I'll give her a rock to put in
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: her backpack to like take along with her. She came
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: out of the school bus and she handed she had
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: a rock or something from her that she just had
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: in the backpack. She gives it to her friend. She goes, now,
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: if you want to set your intention or your wish,
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: you have to wash the rock. Go home, wash the rock.
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: Like she's giving her like this tutorial and the dad
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: is standing there and I'm standing there and I'm like
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: and he's like they learn the weirdest things at school.
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: And you're like, yes, yeah.
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: I'm like as the neighborhood, which I sure, yeah, that
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: sure it came from our public school system to learn
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: how to set an intention with a rock YEP.
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: I love that she had the whole, like the tutorial down.
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: She's like, you wash the rock.
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: He's like, you got to cleanse it. It's got my energy
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: on it. You've got to take it home.
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: And the times that I'll just tell people like, oh,
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: you can get a quartz and cleanse that right out
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: of your house, and they'll look at me. I'm like,
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: just cleanse it. I go. Clapping your hands. I go.
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: If you're just feeling icky and you're like the energy
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: is icky here, like ooh oppressive, just start clapping your hands.
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: It breaks up whatever's haunting you. Like and they're like, oh.
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: You know what I learned that's really good is pretend
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: If you pretend that you have like a vacuum section
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: cup and you just do your whole body with the vacuum.
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: It is like life changing. And then you can like
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: unplug it and like send the energy back into the
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: earth or like do whatever you want with it. But
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: it is like, you know, to sit there and like clean,
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: you feel so clear Afterwards's fun. That's a fun one.
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: I also think that the cool thing about empowering yourself
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: through woodcraft. It's an excuse to feel powerful in a
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: place where you might feel disenfranchised or is empowered.
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: But it's also like an excuse to love yourself because
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: so like think of apothecary work. It's all like really
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: nice teas and lotions and balms and like, oh just
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: put a little Witchhige a little behind your temple or
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: your ear so your headaches go away or whatever. It's
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: literally just the act of self care.
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: Hmm. I love that well, spirituality. I was thinking about
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: this actually because I'm trying to write the film right now,
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: so I'm thinking a lot of a lot of like
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: big plot points and things like that. But I was
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: thinking about you know, we hear a lot on Chelsea's
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: podcast Glamorous Trash about you know, Joseph Campbell's you know,
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: big heroes journey blah blah blah. And I think the
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: interesting thing about spirituality and witchcraft is like it's and
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: this is not a brand new concept, but I'm stealing
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: it anyway. It's not about going out, it's about going in. Yeah,
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: Like the hero's journey for which is for spirituality, for
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: spiritus wasn't as going inside is finding the journey and
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: the adventure within, like, and that feels very revolutionary. That
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: feels really interesting and exciting and very feminine too.
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And if you think about it, because like you know,
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: think of the hero's journey. The most of the time
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: when you're studying the quote unquote hero's journey, you're using
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: the odyssey, like even or you're watching that one Bluie
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: episode where Bengo has to go on a walk. My
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: sister uses it in her English class. She's like the
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: hero's journey. Every woman that was a threat to Odysseus
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: was a witch. And it makes me feel like women
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: who live in their own truth, in their own power
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: or whatever, they're not villains. They're just a threat to
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: the systems that men are trying to put into place. Yeah,
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: But like, of course they were the villains of Odysseus
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: or whatever. They were women who did not need him
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: and did not want him, and could just use him
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: and leave him and turn him on his way. And
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: so often men are used to being like catered to
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: and talked up and all of it. So when it's
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: like when I find that journey within and if I'm
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: so busy focusing in on myself, our society isn't set
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: up for men to know how to handle that. So
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: they were like, and that's why witches are bad.
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: Well, also the financial component to it. I mean the
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: first healers and the doctors and the women in the
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: woods that you'd go to if you had a problem,
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: you know, were witches. And when the Catholic Church was established,
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: I mean they outlawed it because they're like, we don't
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: want you getting their money, Like you need to come
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: to the church. You need to come to church, you
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: need to absolve from sin, like you need to pay us.
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: We'll make it better. You know, you can to chone here.
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: You know, they distinctly wanted to split the capitalism from
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: and being able to be financially independent.
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. So the other night at D and D,
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: I didn't watch my mouth. And we were in like
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: a creepy little room that had like little relics, like
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: little creepy relics, and she described each one and someone
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: was like, this is just like a lot, and I
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: was like, man, those Catholics, because like Catholics love witchcraft
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: because they have their little trinkets and they do love
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: they love witchcraft. They love to term.
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: Met frank process. They love themr. They're spreading the incense
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: all around their lighting candles.
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they got different metals for different purposes. They love
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: to like help you set an intention through prayer or whatever.
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: The Catholics, they love witchcraft mm hm. And so I
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: just said it like I was like, damn those Catholics,
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: without explaining that I myself am a recovering Catholic and
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: I just like I just said it, like it's an
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: appropriate joke to say to a bunch of people that
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: you have played an hour's worth of a game with
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: and have never met before. And I let it. They
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: let it slide, so if anyone was offended, they didn't
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: put anything in a chat or anything. But I did
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: think to myself, I was like, you can't just be
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: dogging Catholics and the fact that they stole your people's
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: entire like game. But every Catholic church has like a
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: saint finger, Like that's weird. Why are you keeping a
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: finger or like a clipping of hair? Did you not
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: know this that in a church, in every church there's
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: like a hidden gabernacle.
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's like, well they can't they can't build the
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: church without the like the blessing of saint or something
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: like a fas artifact.
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: Right, so like a finger, a toenail, like something that switchcraft.
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: I also think how funny it is when so right now,
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you've noticed, but in our country
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: we're on the cusp of women even losing more agency.
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you know.
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: I don't know if you I haven't noticed, to be honest,
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: but wow, I'm disappointed to hear it.
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: Right And on the TikTok shop right now is a
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: T shirt and I get a video for it all
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: the time, and it's herbs and it's all the herbs
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: that medicine women in which is used to use to
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: either perform abortions or to prevent pregnancies in general. Oh wow,
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, because we'll always find a
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: way like I am a big proponent of poisoning violent men.
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: I'm like, you know, just a little cherry pit. You
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: just crush it up enough cherry pits. You crush it up,
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: and they're not a problem anymore. They're not a problem.
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: Like Julia has been me to stop saying that on
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: the internet. She goes, you have to stop telling people
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: that cherry pits make cyanide, and then that solves your
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: problems because someone's gonna do it, And then I think
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: you're liable for that.
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: I mean, information is information. It's it's interesting. No. Actually,
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: so I am a developing medium and I study a
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: lot at Lilydale, and it's actually it's illegal in New
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: York for mediums to give health advice on the body.
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: And there's still like rules and regulations abound herbalism and
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: things like that where people are it's interesting, Like when
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: you watch Tyler Henry's show on Netflix, which I love,
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: and he talks about the body or something going on
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: with your health or your ancestor says, you know, check
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: in on this, like it's interesting. Some states still have
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: really regulated you know. And obviously I'm not a doctor,
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: but if I'm getting a message. I'm going to share
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: it with you if I think it's applicable to your
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: well being, oh, your best self.
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and as a hyperochondriac. My friend, my best friend
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: has begged me to stop meditating because she was like,
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: you're one person who doesn't need to be in tuned
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: with your body because then you're like, my gas has
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: shifted to the right side of my body. What do
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: you think that is? And I'm just like, that's where
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: got trapped. I don't know. She's like, you're too attuned.
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: Most people are just like, ooh, my tummy hurts a
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: little bit, and you're like, it's moved to the north
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: quadrant of my abdomen and do you think I have this?
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: And it's like no, I just really think you need
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: to take a gas. Sex.
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we get all kinds of messages, don't.
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: We don't We like, but yeah, that's interesting. It boggles
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: my mind because of states rights, what's illegal and what isn't.
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: Because when I moved back here, I found out that
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: sex work is still illegal in Chicago, and I went
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: but it's a big city for me, that was the qualifier.
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: I was like, but it's a city, Like yeah, of course,
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: and and the Internet was like still illegal though, and
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: I was like, how do they combat that with the Internet,
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: I wonder?
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: And yeah, well, I mean men can get away with
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: things that they want to get away with, you know.
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: They truly can't. Because here's my whole thing. Like, if
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: a man is getting a tummy tonic from a witch,
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: he's like, this is wonderful. But if a woman is
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: getting something that gives her agency, they're like bad, illegal.
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: And it's the same with sex work. They just don't
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: want women to have avenues. They want a thing like
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: they're like, I should be able to see your boobs
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: whenever I want, But then if I get something out
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: of that, they're like absolutely not. That's almost like you.
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: Have power, right, giving autonomy.
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's wild, wild, it's a wild world. Oh my gosh.
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: We talked about Mary, but we didn't talk about our
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: other lady, Mary Magdalene, and how they just cut everything
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: about her out of the Bible.
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, one of the most interesting things about
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: Mary Magdalen is that her gospel was the most popular
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: gospel of all time, so it was the most copied.
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: So in order for you to like get a gospel
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: at that time, it would have to be copied by hand,
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: and hers was the most copied because, as she writes
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: in it, that she was Jesus's favorite apostle. And it's
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: so fascinating that they decided to not include it for
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: obvious reasons, but there's so much And the other thing
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: that's really fascinating I think about her gospel is there's
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: like seven pages that are missing right up in the
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: beginning that no one has been able to find. And
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: there's kind of like rumors that maybe the Vatican has it,
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: these Coptics might have. I mean, there's like little like
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: theories about if this, if these pages exist, but they're
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: gone in all the copies, So whoever had the original
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: original didn't want this information to come out. And I
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: have a theory that one of the stories of one
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: of Mary's most Mary Magdalen's most famous stories is when
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: she sees Jesus in front of them tomb, right when
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: he has resurrected. Well, she writes in the or, as
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: we know from the Other Fella's Gospels recollection of it,
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: that she did not see him in the flesh, She
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: saw him in her mind's eye. She didn't recognize him
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: at first, but she could feel him like a medium,
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: and she could sense him, and she could communicate with him,
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: and she was able to, you know, say like he's
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: still with us, he's prisen, YadA, YadA. And I have
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: a deep, deep, deep, I mean knowing feeling that the
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: beginning of her gospel is about connecting to your psychic abilities,
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: about connecting to your ability to connect with spirit or
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: your ancestors or your guides. That she had written in
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: the very beginning, this is how I connect with him,
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: this is how you can connect with him. That's my like, Oh,
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: I love that little fear, because most other people would
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: go the other route, where it's like those seven pages
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: about her marriage and banning Jesus or whatever, because that's
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: what people actually like. Yeah, and I think all that's
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: true too. I think for sure that's part of her
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: narrative and part of what made her you know, important
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: to him. But I think, yeah, I think there. I
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: think that they truly didn't want to give people power
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: and autonomy to go with them, to have the power
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: with it, and they wanted to make the church an
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: external force that could heal you instead of you healing yourself.
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: Well, because what also drew me to witchcraft is it's
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: so not disorganized, but like with organized religion, I have
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: to do like I can't eat meat for spring and
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: for witchcraft, I just get to be like and today
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: Athena is talking to me, and therefore I will find
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: all of my battles in her name, and and like
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: there's autonomy and there's choice. And the thing about Catholics
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: is the last thing they want you to do is
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: to think deeply about any of it, like, because it's
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: kind of like the Wizard of Oz, like don't look
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: behind the curtain because then stuff doesn't make sense. So
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: if they were if Mary Magdalene was trying to teach
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: people to be like what if you sat in thought
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: for a moment, they were probably like, absolutely not sit
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: quietly with your thoughts. Nah.
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: Well, I think that's one of the weirdest things about
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: my development as a medium, is like it you think,
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: and maybe I'm simplifying this too much, but you think
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: it's a lot more extravagant than it is. You know,
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: my meditation practice is how I connect to dead people.
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: And the only way I know that I truly am
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: connecting is because I get validation from other people. So
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: when I get messages about people's ancestors and loved ones.
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: I have no no idea what any of it means.
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: I write it all down, I automatic write, But truly,
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: I think if somebody was to meditate and listen, they
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: would just be able to say, oh, it's just my
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: imagination or it's just me remembering that person's you know,
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: how they smell, or that thing that they loved, and
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: they dismiss it. And I feel like part of my
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: journey has been there have been a lot of moments
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: in my life where I've been like, oh, that's nothing.
• 58:28
  Speaker 2: I just I thought I saw my grandfather. That wasn't him.
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: It was just a shadow. You know, those kind of moments,
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: and it's like, no, Actually, like if we allow ourselves
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: to believe, there's a lot more here that we can explore.
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm currently living on a haunted floor of a house,
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: and she's really been quiet since I've settled and like
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: put stuff here. It's almost like she's real chill with me.
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: But usually when I'm visiting, she pounds up and down
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: the wall just to be like, hey girl, it's just me.
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: And my sister is always like I think it's just raccoons.
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: In the attic, and I was like, I don't think so.
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: I think it's just like a lady who also just
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: wants to hang out. And maybe she's not hanging out
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: with me anymore. Maybe Penelope keeps her really entertained. Who knows.
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: Sometimes cats do that, but it's usually because the first
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: time I noticed that I could feel people that weren't
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: supposed to be in the room with me anymore was
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: after a cousin died and I couldn't stop smelling my
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: grandmother's cigarettes. M h m hm. And now it manifests
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: in other ways too, Like I'll get a deep, deep
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: need for a cherry cordial, and.
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: Like it's a cherry cordial.
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: It's like, oh, it's a real disgusting candy that people
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: hand out during Chris's kind of it, But I love them.
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: They're you know, my Sheino cherries. Yeah, so it's a
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: Maraschino cherry with like all of its juices and then
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: around the juices and the cherry is like cream mixing
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: in with the juices, and then it's chocolate coated. Around
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: Christmas time, you should be able to find them in
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: most targets and or grocery.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 2: Stores, all right, I'll keep my eyes open.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: They are traditionally Christmas candy. They made cherry cordial Hershey
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: Kisses that I think they put out for Christmas too now,
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: and they're very good, but they're disgusting candy. No one
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: in my family likes them, bub me and my dead grandmother.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: But every once in a while, I'll just be like
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: sitting or walking through a store and I'll just be like,
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: I wonder if they have cherry cordials, and I get
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: really hyper focused on food cravings, so like, once it's
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: in my brain, I'm like, you have to eat that
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: thing or else it's not going away. Like during my cycle,
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: I'll get like ravenous for a cheeseburger and I'm like
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: I need it, but it has to be like a
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: good cheeseburger. It can't just be like.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, crash.
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: It has to be like a five guys thick cheeseburger.
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: I call it my friend, and I used to call
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: it like our bleeding cheeseburger or whatever, like you gotta
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: go get your bleeding burger. It's probably because I'm low
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: on iron.
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but I body knows what it needs.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: My body knows, and so yeah, it's her cigarette smoke
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: penelopees me out at her picture a couple of times,
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: and that weirded me out. I was like, snob, grandma
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: didn't like cats. You have to stop. And I think
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: my mom told me once she was like, your grandma
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: didn't like cats, but your grandpa did. And I didn't
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: get to meet my grandpa. He died when my mom
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: was sixteen. So I and I had a really great
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: great uncle who was the happiest person to ever run
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: into me and would like weep with joy at the
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: mere sight of any of us kids. And I told
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: his daughter at my uncle's funeral, I was like, you know,
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: sometimes I just really do feel like Uncle Choke just
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: comes to check in to let me know that he's
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: still just like weeping and proud of me. Like just
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: I go. I think that's why I cry now, when
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: I'm just like so weirdly proud of someone. It happened
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: at Young Frankenstein over the weekend. We went to the
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: musical Young Frankenstein, and part of the musical is the
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: monster gets to do a tap number and then he
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: gets to very proudly sing putting on the Ritz in
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: his Frankenstein voice, and I'm like I'm in the front
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: row and I'm about to burst into tears because this
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: man who's acting like a monster, who does not get
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: to have a brain like is getting to tap dance,
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: and I'm like, that's beautiful. It was the only it
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: was really the only part of the musical I liked,
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: because the rest of it is just like Dick and
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: tit jokes. But that was beautiful.
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: I got something right.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: I got something right. Is there any other thing we
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: can think of about how Witchcraft became kind of a
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: feminist movement and a way to buck misogyny? How do
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: you feel about men who practice like I just want
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: to know, as like friends, we don't have it, like
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: we can pretend the mikes aren't here, but like.
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I that's so. It's so interesting because as you
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: asked me, I can kind of see, I can I
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: know your thought about it? Where you want to be
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: alone in the woods, you know.
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: What I mean? Yeah, I don't want them anywhere near me.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: How do I feel about them practicing Hmmm? I don't
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: know if I have an answer to that. What I would?
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: You know? What's interesting is I you said something really
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: found at the beginning of our conversation about appropriation. That
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 2: was like as a white woman, like if you tell me, yeah,
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 2: this is bad or whatever, like I believe you, Like
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: you're the authority. And I think when it comes to
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: spiritualism and witchcraft, I do like the respect of being
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: the authority.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: And I like men who understand the goddess era. I
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: love that who understand the history of the deep knowing
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: and maybe who've witnessed a woman give birth, because I
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 2: think when you kind of break the world down simply,
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: men are able to understand their place in it.
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: They're so angry.
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: But like I went to Lilydale recently. I'm very close
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: to lily Dale. I'm about an hour away. It's a
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: town of mystics and psychics. And you must come and
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: I must do a cookie, I must do a like
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 2: tool Grand Towarvid and the whole thing and all that.
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 2: But you know, there's not really a lot of men there.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: You know, sometimes people will bring their partners or sometimes
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: there's a rogue man. And I ended up going with
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: a couple of friends and one of them was a man,
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: and he was like walking around lily Dale and he
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 2: was like this is really cool, Like there's no men here.
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: Like this feels really energetically different and interesting, and he's like,
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: I'm I'm open and I'm available to whatever this is
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: of being the minority here. And I think there's a
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 2: tenderness that needs to go into practicing witchcraft, especially because
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 2: the history of it is that women specifically were punished
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: for it and were burned for it. And I think
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: if men can hold space for that and have reverence
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: for that, then I welcome them to do to do
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: what they want to do. You know, there's no rules
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: in magic, is what I always come back to.
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: I asked that really inappropriate question, like men aaron? Should
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: they be allowed in our club?
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: I understand though, why you want to protect it, Yes,
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: I understand.
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: It did hit me that most of my tarot practice,
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: when it was shared with another person, it was me
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 1: and a man going back and forth. It would be
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: me fretting my own tarot, sending it to him with
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: no context, him telling me what he got out of
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: the reading, and us comparing what I got to what
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: he got, and like, we would do that back and forth,
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: and it was a way that our friendship that had
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: had to become a little long distance, Like it's how
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: we kept it up, and so it's funny that I'm like,
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: get out of my club, don't touch my rocks. But
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 1: I was like, wait, you did have a male partner
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 1: in your craft for a while, damilely. Yeah.
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 2: And I would also say, like, we're talking specifically about
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: like headows, straight white man, like queer man, trans like man,
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 2: come to the table, like you bring all of your
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 2: you know things. I think you know we're specifically talking about, Yeah,
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 2: on the unfortunate souls that are straight white men. Yeah.
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 1: I mean when my sister go out all of her rocks,
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: I was like, don't let men touch them. And she's like,
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: what does that mean. I was like, it's my superstition.
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: Maybe it's right, maybe it's wrong. I don't know.
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 2: You know what I think what you're intoiting is that
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 2: our world is so out of balance, that there is
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: such a heavy you know, attention and money and catering
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: to the masculine energy. Yes, that we are in need,
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 2: desperate need of rebalancing the scales and re tipping and
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 2: re pouring all of our energy and our wisdom and
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: our spiritual selves into the feminine. So I totally understand
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 2: the feeling of wanting to protect it well.
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: We do have a closing ceremony ontil all the men
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: I've tolerated before, which you'll love because it's a lesson
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: and a manifestation. What is the biggest thing you've learned
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: about combating misogyny or yourself or anything when it comes
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: to witchcraft that you would like to pass on to
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: the listeners.
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 2: So many things are coming to mind. It is something
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 2: that just popped into my head. Is the star of
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 2: the pentagram. H I thought was the was a satanic symbol.
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 2: I grew up thinking that it was like, oh, that's
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 2: the symbol of the devil. Yeah, And I did not
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 2: realize that it represented the four elements and then spirit above.
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 2: And now I have one in my office, And I think,
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 2: I think there's so much about history that once we
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 2: start digging a little deeper, we realize that there's more
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: than one answer to something. And I would say to people,
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 2: the biggest thing I've learned probably is just trusting your
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 2: own instincts when it comes to your magic and figuring
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 2: out what works best for you. And I think it's
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 2: great to pick up witchcraft books and spell books and
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 2: flip through them, but I think, as you so beautifully described,
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 2: like I'm a little bit more into fire and you're
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: a little bit more into water, and you know, things
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 2: are going to speak to you in different ways. We
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 2: didn't dive into it. But I'm also I would consider
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 2: myself like a green garden witch, like that's my That's
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: where I find a lot of magic. But let you know,
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 2: trust the process of magic unfolding and just have fun
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 2: with it.
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: I love to buy a witchcraft book because it has
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 1: a cool cover, and then never up in it course
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 1: of course, why like why would I open it and
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 1: actually read up on something when I know everything all
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 1: the time, Like my I read The Great Cosmic Mother
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: just to get mad that spirituality was ripped from women.
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 1: I think that was my biggest lesson of all when
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: it came to like the craft and understanding the history
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 1: behind the craft and like the generational trauma that's held
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 1: within witchcraft.
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, is that.
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 1: It was it was at some point all at our
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 1: fingertips and it was stolen from us. Like that's what happened,
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 1: and they still try to steal it from us because
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: of all of the ways that they demonize it and
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 1: convince you that it's satan and legislated in all of it.
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting because I feel like so much of
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 2: it is kind of counterintuitive in the movement. It's like
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 2: I'm no longer interested in educating or bringing along men
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 2: to my journey, and my sole mission now with the
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 2: work I create is to uplift and empower women because
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: I feel like when we step into our power, then
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 2: everything will change. And I think they'll come along for
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 2: the ride, and they'll come to lily Dale and they'll
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 2: you know, be open and groovy if that suits them.
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 2: But like, I think it's I actually think and I'm
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 2: I'm not being facetious here. I think I think it's
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 2: paramount to the continuation of the world. Yeah, that women
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 2: step into their power, and if we don't, I think
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 2: that there are going to be big cosmic repercussions.
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 1: Right, because I don't think what we called it the
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: divine feminine, but we didn't like define it for ourselves.
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 1: But to me, it's like women hold all of the
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 1: empathy and the care of the world. Like would we
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 1: be in such a drastic climate crisis if women were
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 1: still in charge. There's just a bigger picture that we see.
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think being rooted in the community in
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 2: a way too. I think that through childbearing, I think
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 2: is really inexplicably linked to with the way women do
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 2: the world and have money, can go to schools and
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 2: child's care and parental leave and having kind of more
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 2: of a family sensibility. And I just read something that
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 2: said millennial men are three times spend three times this
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 2: time that their fathers spent with them with their children. Yeah,
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 2: so we're you know again, we're getting there, and the
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 2: ball is moving and things are going, but we need
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 2: women so desperately to enact and to activate and to
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 2: reawaken and to remember all of their gifts.
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what is a manifestation that you would like to
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 1: add into the collective energy about the things that we
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 1: talked about today.
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 2: I would love for our listeners to step deeper into
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 2: their knowing and to their wild sense of trusting themselves.
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 2: And may we all continue to unravel and to dive
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 2: deeper into the goddesses and the divine creatures that we are,
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 2: and that we continue to celebrate them.
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 1: I love that. I think mine is going to be that.
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 1: I hope that whatever is keeping the listeners or myself
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 1: or you in shame or guilt or secrecy or whatever it.
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: Eventually we wake up in a world where there are
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 1: less things to feel shame about, because I mean, because
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 1: I revel in being the rebel daughter who's weird and
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 1: the weird, funky aunt. I know that you had a
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 1: very different experience about stepping out into your craft and
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 1: being public about it, like you were more fearful, and
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 1: I didn't know how to support you because I was like,
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 1: I just showed up with rocks and I was like,
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 1: I do this now, yeah, And I just gasled my
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 1: whole family into believing I had been doing it all along,
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 1: like I did with my sexuality, where I was like
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 1: I date women now and they're like okay, and I
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 1: was like yes, and I've always dated women and they're
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 1: like that's not true, but okay. Yeah. So I just
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 1: hope that whatever is holding someone back for living their
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 1: most authentic divine power and truth just you wake up
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 1: one day and you realize it's not worth it. It's
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 1: not worth the hold that it has on you.
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like ox freedom on the other side of it, joy.
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 1: Well, Aaron. The tangents and the time that this took
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 1: to get recorded just means that we need to do
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 1: this more often.
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 2: This is fabulous. I had so much fun diving into
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 2: all the Witchy Things video.
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 1: I was so happy when you said yes, and thank
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 1: you so much for being here. Make sure everyone knows
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 1: where to find you, because I want everyone supporting the
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 1: Under the Moongate. I always want to call it the
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 1: Buffalo Medium Show because that's what we call you. And
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 1: I'm like, no, it has a name. We helped name it.
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm at Substack at Under the Moongate dot substack
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 2: dot com. You can google the podcast on Spotify or
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 2: on Apple. You can just google Under the moon Gate
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 2: with Aaron Bagwell and mostly I do most of my
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 2: living my life through Instagram, so if that speaks to you,
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 2: you can find me there as well.
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it'll all be linked in the show notes and
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 1: you can find us at Men I've Tolerated pod on Instagram,
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 1: Nadley K one two four just for me on Instagram,
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 1: Door TikTok, and to all the men I've tolerated before
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 1: on Patreon, where you'll find all of the secrets I
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 1: cut out of this. And remember, tolerators, you don't have
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 1: to smile through anything you're tolerating, including the continual need
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 1: and pressure to feel ashame of something that you feel
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 1: called to do and makes you feel powerful. Smiles are
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 1: for joy.