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What is real? · Life In Flow Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the Life In Flow podcast.
• 0:03
  The three of us,
• 0:05
  Yulia,
• 0:05
  Polina and Irina,
• 0:07
  are exploring what Life In Flow and Flow In Life is.
• 0:12
  Join us as we experiment,
• 0:15
  test our diverse hypotheses and have fun in the process.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: Will we find an answer?
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: This isn't just an intellectual discussion.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: We're co-creating a shared field beyond words.
• 0:30
  We're attuning to what emerges moment by moment so that the
• 0:35
  conversation itself
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: becomes a group flow experience.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_03: And we invite you to become an active participant in this experiment.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_03: There will be pauses and moments of silence.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_03: We leave them on purpose because this is where magic happens.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: Go beyond the intellectual information.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: Listen with your whole body.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: and notice how your somatic experience shifts in the process.
• 1:05
  Share with us what reveals itself in the space where mind,
• 1:11
  body and energy flow together.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to another episode of the Life In Flow podcast.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Yulia facilitating today's episode.
• 1:28
  And my co-hosts Irina and Polina are also here And if you are
• 1:39
  watching this episode
• 1:41
  on YouTube You might be wondering What strange outfits Why do
• 1:49
  they look like that?
• 1:51
  And if it makes you curious,
• 1:52
  those who are listening Do check us out on YouTube
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I will explain a little bit about the outfits later.
• 2:03
  But for now I'll just say that the topic or the question that
• 2:08
  we are exploring
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: today in this episode is what is real.
• 2:17
  And so the outfits or the personas that we have brought with us
• 2:20
  today have
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: something to do with that.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: But before I continue and explain,
• 2:27
  let me just give you a little bit of background of how the
• 2:30
  topic for this episode
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: came about.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_02: A little more than a month ago,
• 2:40
  I had an epic adventure and traveled to California from Berlin
• 2:49
  for three weeks.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_02: I got to meet
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: Polina in person for the first time in California.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_02: So it was really cool to hang out.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: And then for two weeks I was in a desert, Ansa Borrego Desert.
• 3:07
  And the name of that adventure was Vision Quest and another
• 3:12
  name was an Underworld Journey.
• 3:17
  so the two weeks that we spent in the desert we switched almost
• 3:31
  but not completely
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: out of the waking consciousness the language and the our state they were
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: informed by dreams,
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_02: by imagination,
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_02: by poetry,
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_02: by being in communion with Anza Borrego herself,
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: with its beings,
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: with the creatures.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_02: So it was quite a unique experience unlike any other I had had before.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_02: And interestingly enough,
• 4:13
  A lot of things were happening in a different way because we
• 4:18
  were in another state
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_02: of consciousness.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yet when I returned,
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: those things that happened,
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_02: they shifted my waking life and what I am,
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: who I am in the waking consciousness a lot in
• 4:40
  Very deep,
• 4:41
  profound ways some of the changes that have been difficult
• 4:45
  before.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_02: And no change is permanent also,
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_02: so I'm not,
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_02: I guess too optimistic about them or,
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_02: thinking that they will just stay and never go away.
• 4:59
  But anyway,
• 5:00
  this made me think,
• 5:06
  okay,
• 5:06
  we were doing a lot of dreaming there.
• 5:09
  And yet the dreaming did a lot of very materialistic,
• 5:17
  I would say,
• 5:18
  waking consciousness shifts.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I started asking myself, what is real?
• 5:28
  And it's a question that I had been asking myself before
• 5:33
  because I have been having
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_02: a really hard time integrating my
• 5:42
  Urge to go to inhabit you know the dreaming worlds more openly
• 5:47
  I would say and the
• 5:49
  underworld more openly at the same time you know being grounded
• 5:54
  in this in this
• 5:56
  waking reality so that's you know where the question is coming
• 6:00
  from and the
• 6:01
  question is really big what is real because there are so many
• 6:04
  layers and there are
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: so many ways that you can approach this question so what I
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: An intention that I have for tonight is just initial exploration.
• 6:17
  And this is a topic I think I want to explore deeper depending
• 6:21
  on,
• 6:22
  you know,
• 6:22
  what happens today.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, the personas that we're inhabiting today
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: which are different from our usual personas.
• 6:40
  It's also a play with this notion or with this idea that there
• 6:46
  is something real,
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: something not real,
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_02: or what is that real and what is that not real?
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_02: I don't have any answers.
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  It's just a playful way,
• 6:56
  I guess,
• 6:57
  that one of the ways that we are going to be exploring this.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so with that, we will start.
• 7:06
  and we'll start as usual with a game and for now we'll just
• 7:16
  each of us will say a
• 7:19
  phrase where real is part of the phrase like this can't be real
• 7:27
  right and then
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_02: we'll just transform the phrase each of us
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: So let's say Polina says, ah, that can't be real.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: And,
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: we'll do the same phrase,
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: but just in a completely,
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_02: different tone or with gestures,
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_02: something like that.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_02: So we just kind of like playing with the word itself real.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_02: And each of us will do just one phrase.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_02: I can start.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: Is it for real?
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: Is it for real?
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: Is it for real?
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_03: Do we change or do we go with the same phrase?
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we change.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_03: Is it real or is it all happening in my head?
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_02: Is it real?
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: Or is it all happening in my head?
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: Is it real or is it all happening in my head?
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: Is it real or is it true?
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_03: Is it real or is it true?
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: Is it real or is it true?
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: That was fun.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_02: It was.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, now we're going to have another game.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_02: We'll go to the questions.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: And it has to do with the persona that we have created for ourselves.
• 10:22
  And the first part of the game is I invite each of us just kind
• 10:29
  of to describe matter of factly.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_02: What artifacts are there?
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_02: How did you create your persona?
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not going to be about a lot of imagination or really inhabiting.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's more, okay, this is how I have assembled my persona.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like I have this and this and this and here I am.
• 10:59
  So it doesn't have to be long but I just want this to be
• 11:03
  grounded in what's called
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_03: waking reality I can start just to give an example Hi,
• 11:12
  so today I am wearing this hat and this is a hat I would never
• 11:21
  wear in my life It's
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_02: a cowboy hat that I brought from that trip to California from
• 11:29
  a gold mining town but actually the more I'm wearing it the
• 11:33
  more I'm liking it and
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_02: I'm also here with my bushcraft knife this is my brand and
• 11:54
  it's a quite like a sturdy knife you can do a lot of things in
• 11:59
  the forest with it
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_02: you can cut trees you can dig but it can spoil and I also haven't
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_02: Worn this poncho, I guess.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: Never.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: This is the first time I'm wearing it.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_02: It has been in my wardrobe for three, four, five years.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_02: Who knows?
• 12:33
  And I'm not yet quite sure what it is that didn't quite agree
• 12:41
  with my usual persona about this.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
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  so I'm here in this cowboy hat with my knife and with this kind
• 12:58
  of feminine red
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_02: cloak,
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  SPEAKER_02: I would even say.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_03: I'm a woman in red.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: I am.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, well, I'm wearing red lipstick.
• 13:17
  which I don't do usually not because I'm afraid of red lipstick
• 13:23
  but I just don't
• 13:24
  like how it looks on me I also like painted my lips a little
• 13:31
  bit wider than they
• 13:33
  are just like to create the effect of more lips and I painted
• 13:43
  my eyes differently
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_03: so I have
• 13:50
  I don't remember the terms how they call it that it's like I
• 13:54
  have let's call it
• 13:55
  trickster's eyes and I have also sort of two horns yes thank
• 14:07
  you I was trying to
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_03: remember the name yes I am wearing two horns made of my hair
• 14:19
  which is something that I could wear maybe even 10 years ago
• 14:25
  but at a certain point
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  SPEAKER_03: I decided that I'm too old for this shit Are they horns or they're buns?
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: Did you mean?
• 14:35
  They're buns but they look like horns Yeah,
• 14:39
  okay And they're asymmetric which was I was not
• 14:46
  Going for a symmetry on purpose but it happened this way and I
• 14:50
  thought okay I
• 14:51
  usually really try to look more elegant and you know like
• 14:57
  beautiful so I said
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_03: you're like this air of not
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_03: Caring about my looks would serve the purpose.
• 15:16
  I also wear a choker in the style of something gothic,
• 15:23
  which is not my style at all.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_03: And a black sweatshirt.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_03: And I haven't been wearing black since I was a teenager.
• 15:39
  So it's like sort of the combination of things that I never do
• 15:45
  these days I am
• 15:48
  wearing a long black dress with a slit and with feathers that
• 16:02
  is open here
• 16:08
  And I'm also nurturing this little feather bag next to me I'm
• 16:21
  not wearing my
• 16:21
  glasses because this persona doesn't wear glasses and I don't
• 16:26
  have contacts So
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: you're all very fuzzy
• 16:33
  And I am wearing sneakers that I would never pair with a dress
• 16:36
  like this Nor would
• 16:37
  I wear a dress like this Even though Yulia thought that this is
• 16:41
  a normal persona
• 16:43
  for me But it is not I wouldn't wear a dress with feathers
• 16:47
  Maybe now I would
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: Because of my connection with birds recently But not in the past No,
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: this would not be something I adorn myself with Hmm
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: Okay,
• 17:05
  so thank you for this introduction which was just kind of about
• 17:10
  describing in the
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: waking terms what it is that visually we have on us.
• 17:18
  And so in the second part of the game I want to invite you to
• 17:23
  go more and share a story of
• 17:33
  That Persona That You Are Inhabiting And It Can Start For
• 17:41
  Example With The Words I
• 17:44
  Am The One Who Or It Can Start Or It Can Be A Story Of You In
• 17:54
  The First Person
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_02: Place Face Person But Everything Is First
• 18:03
  So I'm wearing this leather boots and I'm opening the door of a
• 18:21
  pub with a kick off
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: my leg and I'm coming with a lot of determination
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: So whatever your story,
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_02: I want you to,
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_02: it doesn't have to be grounded in this reality,
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: meaning like where you're sitting now,
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_02: but it has to be real for you to some extent,
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_02: in some ways it has to be real with you,
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_02: for you.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_02: And it can be real in terms of,
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: again,
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 19:04
  some characteristics or something that affects your core that
• 19:12
  happens when these
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_02: pure physical things are there.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, I can try.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: Because I haven't done it myself.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_02: I haven't tested this.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just the woman who's so daring.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if I want something, I just go for it.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_02: Even if it means that I'm gonna kick that door with my leg.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: My knife is always with me.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_02: I haven't used it once,
• 20:10
  but it's just something that is always there to remind me who I
• 20:20
  am and what I am
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_02: capable of.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: I'm wild and nothing can stop me.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_03: I believed you.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: Bravo!
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_03: Polina, do you want to go?
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_02: Irочка, go.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 21:09
  I am the one who doesn't care about the rules and who doesn't
• 21:18
  care about the others
• 21:21
  and what they think of me and what they want and what they do
• 21:26
  because I do.
• 21:29
  whatever I want to do whenever I want to do it and if what I
• 21:44
  feel like is to
• 21:45
  destroy the world just for the sake of the fun of it I will do
• 21:53
  it because because I
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_03: can
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: I am the one who will use my sensuality
• 22:36
  to get what I want I will be so soft and gentle and I will
• 22:44
  invite you in to my
• 22:47
  world of pleasure and desire I will turn you on to everything
• 23:00
  that I want and you
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: will give it to me
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I will pretend to be a gentle little bird Oh,
• 23:13
  so gentle and so soft You're going to think that I wear dresses
• 23:19
  like this every day
• 23:23
  You're going to think I have a whole wardrobe of these kinds of
• 23:27
  items You're going
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: to want to contribute to that wardrobe
• 23:43
  You have almost lured me in I very much felt like contributing
• 23:49
  to wardrobe Where's my wallet?
• 24:01
  Oh thank you girls thanks for playing so I guess my first
• 24:11
  question is just an
• 24:14
  invitation to reflect on that experience and so we started with
• 24:22
  just basically
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_02: being real in many ways
• 24:31
  and then we were not real in many ways,
• 24:37
  but then in some ways we might have been real.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_02: So I just wonder if there's anything for you there after that game.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_03: Can you repeat the question?
• 24:58
  The question is any any reflection from you know like what was
• 25:04
  real what was not
• 25:05
  real and where real and not real overlap maybe so kind of like
• 25:18
  who are you who are
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_02: you now is it are you someone who is
• 25:31
  you know like painted your lips or is there something more
• 25:38
  behind that what is real
• 25:40
  and what is not I felt like it was all real if I'm occupying a
• 25:47
  part of me even if
• 25:51
  it's not a part of me that comes out very often even if I'm
• 25:56
  pretending a little bit
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: or I'm pushing my edge
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's still real because I'm occupying that space in this point in time.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: So even if it's a persona, if I'm really occupying it, then it's real.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it was quite comfortable to play this little game.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: There is a part of me that's quite comfortable with this game.
• 26:31
  And I like it So it's as if an excuse for a part of you to come
• 26:39
  alive Yeah And the
• 26:47
  part of you or a part of you that comes alive interestingly
• 26:52
  that it needs something
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_02: maybe not necessarily but this time within the context of the game
• 27:00
  it needed something um let's say an artifact an artifact which
• 27:10
  is a physical nature
• 27:12
  and that that artifact somehow took you to another state maybe
• 27:20
  to another state of
• 27:21
  consciousness maybe to another perceptual world i i'm i'm
• 27:28
  actually this is my
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_02: speculation
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well, can I adjust your speculation and tell you what's true for me?
• 27:38
  All of this was more for your benefit because I don't need this
• 27:42
  outfit to occupy this persona.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: But in order to sell you better on it, I need to give you the visuals.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you, Paulina.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: It was very gracious of you.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: I appreciate you playing along.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: The audience,
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 28:04
  sometimes doesn't want to do the work of locating what exactly
• 28:08
  you're feeling.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: So it's easier to draw them in with the visuals.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so the visuals for you don't really play your role.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's a bit of a flirt.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: So it helps with the flirt into the persona.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: But I could occupy this persona in,
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: jeans,
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: in my pajamas if I wanted to But I don't know,
• 28:40
  we would have to experiment Next time I will come in my pajamas
• 28:44
  and I will go into
• 28:44
  this persona and we'll see how effective it is Maybe we should
• 28:49
  pause this recording
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_02: and do an outfit change We will have another one on this topic,
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_02: so for now we'll just continue So next time we'll do pajama party
• 29:00
  Yeah but it's like it's true that even in theater enacting
• 29:12
  schools they have like
• 29:13
  two different directions one the Stanislavsky system which goes
• 29:19
  from within into
• 29:21
  like into the embodiment of what you first feel within and then
• 29:27
  there is the
• 29:29
  Totally opposite approach when you first use the artifacts to
• 29:34
  help you to embody
• 29:36
  the character that becomes so ingrained that you start being
• 29:42
  this character but you
• 29:45
  begin with the artifacts so both approaches are valid I for
• 29:54
  myself can say that
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_03: There is a part of me which is very,
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_03: close now to the surface of my consciousness,
• 30:07
  like the waking awareness that doesn't believe the character
• 30:16
  that I played out.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_03: At the same time,
• 30:26
  I know and I'm not talking about the theoretical you know
• 30:32
  cognitive knowledge but I
• 30:36
  know in myself that this character is a part of me that you
• 30:42
  like that she exists in
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_03: me somewhere very very deep within
• 30:57
  so I still have doubts regarding the how convincing I am in
• 31:12
  embodying my shadow mm-hmm
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_02: but I assume for the three of us,
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_02: the personas that we decided to inhabit to some extent are important,
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 31:29
  And maybe they are real to some extent and to some extent
• 31:35
  they're not yet or
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_02: they're not already.
• 31:39
  You would have had to change the assignment for us to pick a
• 31:44
  persona that is
• 31:47
  either not existent or like very inaccessible then I probably
• 31:53
  would have picked
• 31:55
  something else yeah but that wasn't my idea my idea was just to
• 32:00
  start experimenting
• 32:02
  so maybe you know we'll experiment with personas and theatric
• 32:08
  um theatrics more one
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_02: day um
• 32:17
  Yeah for me you know like impersonating and being really real
• 32:27
  with artifacts but
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: also with with how I speak if I'm being that or playing
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_02: Playing with some real situations like,
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_02: walking with my knife somewhere,
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_02: knowing that my knife is with me.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's just somehow such a powerful way of getting that persona.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_02: I want something from
• 33:17
  to be more alive and to be more part of my like real waking
• 33:27
  life,
• 33:28
  I guess.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_02: So my my next question is what is real and what is not real?
• 33:49
  and specifically I want to start with things like sometimes or
• 34:02
  actually not
• 34:03
  sometimes but often brushed off as not very real like our
• 34:09
  imagination for example
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_02: imagination that sometimes
• 34:15
  you know shows us some things whatever words images and if
• 34:20
  we're to make an
• 34:22
  important decision so like is really real enough for decision
• 34:31
  um our dreams maybe
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_02: we did talk about intuition but anyway my question is
• 34:44
  what you see as real in your life from the different modalities
• 34:57
  that often are not
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_02: considered real in the Western world.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: What do you mean exactly?
• 35:16
  I mean how real was something in your imagination let's say you
• 35:33
  were walking on the
• 35:33
  beach and there was a flash a word an image or whatever and
• 35:42
  then you come back are
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_02: you gonna
• 35:44
  make a decision an important decision in your life about it or
• 35:49
  do you keep it in a
• 35:51
  separate place like what's the place what's how real is it for
• 35:59
  you how real it
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_03: depends on how much you believe in it like that phrase
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_03: How do you believe in it?
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so what does it mean to believe in it?
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_03: What does it mean to believe in anything?
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_03: You just believe that it's real.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_03: For you, it's the reality you occupy.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_03: The phrase that I used in our game,
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 36:37
  is it real or is it all happening in my head with the quote
• 36:41
  from Harry Potter?
• 36:43
  The witch for me or actually the answer from the Dumbledore was
• 36:49
  this is something
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_03: that Harry asked Dumbledore when he dies and they meet in the limbo
• 36:56
  and in the end of that conversation I ask is it real or is it
• 37:01
  all happening just in
• 37:02
  my head and Dumbledore says of course it's all happening in
• 37:07
  your head but why or
• 37:09
  not should it mean that it's not real so when I read it I
• 37:12
  thought oh my god it
• 37:15
  describes my whole life and how I operate in the world because
• 37:21
  for me for my whole
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_03: life my imagination and what
• 37:26
  is happening in my head has been always more real than the
• 37:32
  physical reality and am
• 37:38
  I capable of making a decision based on my imagination well I
• 37:43
  think I have been
• 37:44
  doing it for my whole life the problem is is and I call it a
• 37:50
  problem because like
• 37:53
  Something that we talked about and I mentioned a lot of times
• 37:57
  we're social beings
• 37:58
  and we're social animals so like we're not just occupy some
• 38:05
  reality we believe in
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_03: which most probably is all an illusion but we occupy a shared illusion
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_03: Something is shared, something is not.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_03: The less your illusion intersects with the illusion of the others,
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_03: the more problems you may encounter with.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_03: When everyone says it's this one, but you go, no, it's a different way.
• 38:45
  Like you become excluded from the shared reality and even in
• 38:52
  this case like our
• 39:02
  capacity to believe in the illusion that is shared is something
• 39:10
  magnificent because
• 39:12
  I have read once about the experiment you know like this kind
• 39:18
  of social experiments
• 39:19
  they have been quite popular since I think 60s or 70s when they
• 39:25
  gather a group of
• 39:26
  people and they share they show them let's say a white cube and
• 39:33
  they ask them what
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_03: color of is this cube
• 39:37
  So like there is only one the real subject of the experiment
• 39:41
  all the rest are
• 39:42
  actors so all the actors one by one say that it's black so the
• 39:48
  real subject of the
• 39:49
  experiment always answers the last one and in the majority of
• 39:54
  cases there are
• 39:56
  people who can like sustain that no it's white but the more
• 40:00
  than the half cases the
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_03: people would say that it's black what's
• 40:06
  Curious is when they interview people after the experiment and
• 40:11
  they ask them why
• 40:14
  they said that the white is black they don't say that you know
• 40:18
  like everyone said
• 40:19
  that it's black so I didn't want to look stupid in front of
• 40:23
  other people so I said
• 40:25
  the same that the other people said in the majority of cases
• 40:28
  people don't even
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_03: they're not even capable of explaining
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_03: why they gave the answer they gave.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_03: So there was an experiment where they did this similar game,
• 40:43
  but they used an MRI to check what is happening in the brain of
• 40:51
  the subject of the
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_03: experiment.
• 40:53
  And what they discovered that when the person starts receiving
• 40:59
  the signal that
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_03: everyone in the group
• 41:02
  describes the reality in a different way not what the person
• 41:08
  thinks he or she sees
• 41:13
  the activity of the brain responsible for the visual it gets
• 41:18
  activated so it's just
• 41:21
  like an interpretation is hypothesis that the experiment has
• 41:25
  made it's not the real
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_03: set of stone but they suggested that
• 41:30
  It might mean that when we are confronted with the shared
• 41:37
  reality that doesn't
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_03: correspond to what we believe is the reality,
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_03: our brain begins to change what we actually see.
• 41:49
  So our shared illusion is so powerful that actually we start
• 41:54
  believing that
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_03: something is real just because the other people say that it's real.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_02: Ir,
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_02: from what I understand,
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_02: so you called those worlds,
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_02: the collective world and the individual world,
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_02: you called them illusions.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_02: And the way you talked about it,
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_02: it sounded like your type of illusion based on imagination was somehow
• 42:32
  rather unique and it made you feel more isolated than other
• 42:42
  people in a different
• 42:45
  type of illusion maybe in the waking state illusion so is that
• 42:53
  yeah that describes
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_03: the major part of my experiences in this world
• 43:04
  So in your opinion there is a conflict between this I would say
• 43:12
  maybe perceptual
• 43:15
  world and then the perceptual world that is rooted in the
• 43:20
  waking reality It might
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_03: be perceived as a conflict Is there?
• 43:36
  You ask the question,
• 43:37
  would you make a decision based on your imagination?
• 43:41
  Because these decisions are having physical consequences in the
• 43:46
  physical reality.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_03: And I believe that if...
• 43:57
  My belief in my imagination is powerful enough for not letting
• 44:01
  the collective
• 44:03
  illusion to influence me that I might have the power to
• 44:10
  influence more the physical
• 44:11
  reality of my imagination than like what the collective
• 44:17
  illusion will influence so
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_03: this is what magic is about but
• 44:37
  simple example let's imagine that I meet a guy I see certain
• 44:46
  signs in his behavior
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_03: and that in my reality in my illusion creates an interpretation that
• 45:01
  He's into me like that he likes me or he's in love with me
• 45:04
  whatever like and I feel
• 45:07
  certain pull towards him too so I live in the reality where we
• 45:17
  like each other
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_03: already but then this person doesn't present the behaviors that confirm
• 45:31
  this reality it it might be that it's something doesn't matter
• 45:37
  that like if my
• 45:38
  personality says okay like i don't care i will go to find
• 45:42
  another guy but depending
• 45:43
  on my personality for example if i perceive this as the
• 45:47
  rejection that is very
• 45:50
  powerful for me or really painful then it is a conflict and it
• 45:55
  is a problem so like
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_03: i
• 46:04
  base my behavior and my interpretation of reality based on like
• 46:09
  one illusion and I
• 46:11
  discover that this illusion is not shared by the other person
• 46:14
  and it creates
• 46:18
  certain unpleasant experiences for me then it is a conflict
• 46:22
  okay so it's like you
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_02: see
• 46:31
  they experience life basically as a set of different illusions
• 46:39
  and in some
• 46:39
  illusions you there is a match of the illusions and then it's
• 46:44
  easier to I guess
• 46:50
  share that world with someone and someone doesn't work this way
• 46:56
  there is like a
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_02: clash of illusions
• 47:04
  There are some pieces of the illusions if they don't intersect
• 47:08
  it might not matter
• 47:09
  or it might be even the source of the inspiration for like
• 47:16
  amplifying our worldview
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_03: and for creativity and discovering new things etc.
• 47:22
  But when these parts of the intersection where I believe that
• 47:29
  they intersect and I
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_03: discover that they don't,
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_03: they might be critical.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_03: If the relationships,
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_03: if this contact is critical somehow for me,
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_03: if it's important in my illusion.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_02: Halina?
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_02: What would you say?
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_01: What was the original question?
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_01: Because we just went down so many different pathways.
• 48:04
  Whether or not I would follow something that could be imaginary
• 48:08
  or not real?
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: Because it appears to me.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_02: What kind of worlds do you inhabit?
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_02: Let's say some
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_02: Real that you can touch some not real at all.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_02: And how do they inform each other?
• 48:26
  Like,
• 48:26
  for example,
• 48:28
  like what do you consider real in your in which world do you
• 48:31
  consider real?
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_01: I actually don't know how to answer that question,
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_01: because I both simultaneously believe nothing is real.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_01: and everything is real.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_02: Can you talk more about that?
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, okay.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_01: Everything is an interpretation of what is being presented.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very aware that my interpretation is usually very different than
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_01: Those that surround me Which always begs the question of what is real?
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_01: Is their version real or is mine?
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_01: Is any of it real?
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_01: Is all of it real?
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_01: At the same time?
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 49:42
  this is a question that I've lived with since I was little and
• 49:46
  I've shared with the
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_01: two of you
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_01: in this format before.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_01: Now,
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_01: of course,
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_01: there's more out there things that maybe are harder to...
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like when they shapeshifted into a bird,
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_01: was that real?
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_01: Was that experience real?
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_01: It felt real?
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: Could I explain it to someone else that would believe it as real?
• 50:24
  Maybe Was that just my imagination going wild and activating a
• 50:31
  bunch of cells that
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_01: have sensory perception?
• 50:37
  I'm going philosophical because I legitimately don't have
• 50:40
  another answer for you So
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: maybe ask me a specific question
• 50:49
  So the context that I would like to explore is let's say in the
• 51:00
  world where a lot
• 51:02
  of people most people at least in the countries where we live
• 51:08
  like in the west they
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_02: have a very clear definition of what real is and what is not real and
• 51:24
  they do have a definition of what is not real and it's
• 51:28
  reflected in a lot of things
• 51:30
  like healthcare for example that people who engage in whatever
• 51:37
  energetic practices
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_02: for example or other thoughts of practices
• 51:42
  They're allowed to yet they're never recognized as something
• 51:47
  that insurance would
• 51:48
  pay for things things like that so I mean there is to me there
• 51:53
  is a very clear
• 51:54
  divide well maybe not a very clear divide but a clear divide
• 52:00
  which for me created
• 52:03
  has been creating an experience that if I live also in another
• 52:08
  world that for me is
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_02: real
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_02: And that creates a lot of tension with this world for whom,
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_02: for whom,
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_02: be it imagination,
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_02: be it dreams,
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_02: be it traveling,
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_02: into the underworld,
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_02: be it any other way of receiving information,
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_02: if they do not recognize it,
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_02: then I am always someone
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_02: like on the fringe, it says if I lose a little bit of my legitimacy.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that that makes total sense.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_01: But I've literally lived in that space my entire life.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_01: And then the the tension that you described, you did say tension, right?
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 53:06
  The tension you describe has only gotten easier for me
• 53:10
  personally when I just
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_01: started accepting that nothing is real and everything is real.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I just started accepting my position in it.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_02: But what does it look like in your life?
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_02: Nothing is real and everything is real.
• 53:36
  I mean collective consciousness I've always been on the fringe
• 53:41
  of whatever everyone
• 53:43
  else says it is so I've also tried to question it and try to
• 53:51
  understand to like
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_01: locate myself compared to what I'm being told
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_01: What does it look like?
• 54:00
  I don't know It looks like there's a bunch of people saying
• 54:05
  something And I'm like,
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_01: okay,
• 54:06
  well those bunch of people are saying that I don't know if
• 54:09
  that's actually true
• 54:10
  That's their experience To them it's true They're creating it
• 54:14
  into reality I have a
• 54:17
  different experience They won't listen to it So I have to hold
• 54:22
  it with myself,
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_01: by myself Maybe with a few other individuals that I come across
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_01: that are also more capable of holding things on the fringe.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_01: Am I answering the question?
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_02: The question was just what it means in your life to hold that,
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_02: I guess,
• 54:48
  worldview or to inhabit that world where everything is real but
• 54:55
  nothing is real.
• 54:58
  It's just a constant state of questioning and not taking
• 55:05
  anything at surface level
• 55:08
  even though I have respect for a person that says that this is
• 55:13
  blue like I
• 55:14
  understand that to them it is blue but I also know that it's
• 55:17
  possibly green and
• 55:19
  maybe to me it looks red but it could actually be green to them
• 55:22
  it's blue to me
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_01: it's red but it might actually be green meaning
• 55:30
  the tension of holding multiple things as possibilities at all
• 55:36
  times yes but what
• 55:43
  if you need to make a decision and this decision depends on
• 55:48
  whether it's blue or
• 55:49
  green or red yes so in that case I will most likely follow that
• 55:55
  where there's
• 55:56
  energy where I feel there's some aliveness where there's some
• 55:59
  sort of pull
• 56:01
  Which may or may not have anything to do with the reality of
• 56:04
  the thing The aliveness?
• 56:09
  And I know And I also know that every choice and every decision
• 56:15
  is still a fucking
• 56:15
  gamble I have no idea what real is I have no idea where this
• 56:20
  decision point will
• 56:21
  take me I have no idea if I'm even collecting the right data To
• 56:26
  have a little bit
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_01: more sense of all the aspects of this thing
• 56:30
  That Is Real Or Maybe Not Or Maybe Both Aliveness You Were
• 56:35
  Asking Me About
• 56:36
  Aliveness It Was Not So Much A Question But Rather A Comment
• 56:45
  Because You Said I
• 56:49
  Will Guide Myself By The Aliveness Of The Energetic Pool I Feel
• 56:55
  Independently How
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_03: Real It Seems Or Not But To Me
• 56:59
  This aliveness exactly makes it more real in comparison to
• 57:05
  other choices,
• 57:07
  to other illusions.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_01: In comparison?
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_03: In comparison, yes.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yay!
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_01: We caught it.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if it makes it more real.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_01: It just makes it something I want to engage with.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't say it makes it more real.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_01: It just makes it something I want to engage with.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, let's use different terminology.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_03: It makes it more alive for you at this moment.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_01: I just feel like this is what I want to try.
• 57:40
  Usually when I make decisions that are more from the head and
• 57:45
  there isn't that
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_01: aliveness aspect or whatever,
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_01: the decisions from the head don't feel very fun and,
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_01: they're very flat.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_01: They don't usually have any juice to them.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, and what has juice?
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_02: What makes something juicy for you?
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, honestly, the less 2D reality something is the more juicy it is.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_01: The more it defies the logic we've adapted for this reality,
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_01: the more outside the bounds it is,
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_01: the more I feel like a shkoda following it.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_01: What is shkoda in English?
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_03: You live in US, you should know better.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_01: No, but there isn't a word.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_01: There isn't a one-to-one.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_02: There...
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like a brazen child, sort of.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what's more fun than to prove everyone wrong?
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_01: There's nothing more...
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_01: it also can have a big cost associated with being shunned from society.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_03: And also, like, in my experience, for example, but
• 59:26
  I don't invite us to and I'm not assuming to extrapolate it I'm
• 59:31
  just explaining my
• 59:33
  own experience because it's my particular case but in my life
• 59:43
  the motivation to
• 59:44
  prove something to the world that they're wrong and I'm right
• 59:52
  just have stopped
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_03: walking I think
• 59:56
  Twenty Years Ago I Mean Just The Reality Stop Responding To My
• 1:00:08
  Attempts To Manifest
• 1:00:10
  Whatever In My Illusion If I Am Coming From The Motivation To
• 1:00:17
  Prove That The World
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_03: Is Wrong And I Am Right
• 1:00:21
  yeah I didn't say that I want to prove it I agree proving but
• 1:00:25
  you just you said
• 1:00:28
  that I mean doing something that is against the grain and
• 1:00:32
  doesn't work the way they
• 1:00:33
  say just from my experience not to prove okay okay but there is
• 1:00:38
  no proving because
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_01: uh people that share uh
• 1:00:43
  the illusion of reality and are very committed to it are
• 1:00:47
  incapable of letting an
• 1:00:49
  outlier enter their consciousness they will do everything
• 1:00:53
  possible to make sure to
• 1:00:55
  explain away this outlier in ways that fit their reality so
• 1:01:00
  there is no way to
• 1:01:00
  prove it so it's but but it's fun to do it for you for me it's
• 1:01:05
  fun it's cool it's
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_01: expensive okay so I'm hearing
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's expensive.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_02: Is that part of being juicy?
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_02: Anything else?
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm actually now I'm wondering,
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_02: there are some costs associated with inhabiting those perceptual worlds.
• 1:01:35
  This is how I would call them that are not shared by or are not
• 1:01:40
  considered legitimate by
• 1:01:42
  the majority of the population that you live with right so like
• 1:01:52
  what are the
• 1:01:53
  benefits why why why hold on to those perceptual realities or
• 1:02:01
  in my case I just I
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_01: just I cannot live if I'm living according to
• 1:02:07
  other people's reality that it is not is not real for me I
• 1:02:10
  start shutting down my
• 1:02:11
  body starts getting sick my mind starts getting sick I start
• 1:02:15
  losing my access to
• 1:02:18
  why am I here like what's the point of all this I've had this
• 1:02:21
  experience nothing
• 1:02:23
  works so it's as if you were limited um you put into this one
• 1:02:31
  plane then your being
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_02: starts
• 1:02:37
  suffering or it just goes into some kind of reaction that um
• 1:02:46
  yeah well first it's
• 1:02:50
  rebellion right in the beginning like for the first maybe 20 or
• 1:02:53
  30 years it's
• 1:02:54
  rebellion that leads nowhere then it's complete shutdown that
• 1:02:59
  also leads nowhere
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_01: but the experience has been like fitting yourself into
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_01: Something that is not the shape of you.
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_01: If it's not the shape of me,
• 1:03:11
  SPEAKER_01: even though I don't necessarily have a shape,
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_01: I want to occupy different shapes.
• 1:03:17
  But if you're going to tell me I can only occupy this shape
• 1:03:21
  according to your
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_01: rules,
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_01: what's the point?
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I sort of share this.
• 1:03:38
  The world is dull and the life became pointless and my body
• 1:03:47
  enters into depression
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_03: and doesn't want to live.
• 1:03:50
  So the way how I say it,
• 1:03:54
  I simply don't want to live in the world without magic.
• 1:03:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a really good way to frame it.
• 1:04:01
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if I would use the word magic,
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_01: but I would maybe use a different word,
• 1:04:05
  SPEAKER_01: but it's the same sentiment.
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_02: And you, Yuli?
• 1:04:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think it's the same with me.
• 1:04:19
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's not that I even chose to...
• 1:04:26
  SPEAKER_02: Occupy this world, this experience.
• 1:04:29
  I think it's more that I found out through a lot of iterations
• 1:04:34
  and pushing it away
• 1:04:35
  and pushing it away and away and then really just finding
• 1:04:41
  myself at bottoms,
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_02: just going down deep and down deep.
• 1:04:56
  Yes and so every time I would go down and I would discover that
• 1:05:04
  the thing that
• 1:05:05
  makes me alive again somehow has to do with you know other
• 1:05:12
  states of consciousness
• 1:05:13
  SPEAKER_02: or other perceptual planes so but the problem that
• 1:05:24
  I think the way that I was trying to manage it was still to put
• 1:05:29
  the divide a big
• 1:05:30
  divide between you know what is it the reality the reality that
• 1:05:37
  I can share you
• 1:05:39
  know with the majority of people who I exist with and my own
• 1:05:44
  reality and I do share
• 1:05:47
  it with not specifically my reality but you know just like in
• 1:05:52
  broader sense
• 1:05:54
  Different realities with you and with some other communities
• 1:05:58
  but I didn't find it
• 1:06:01
  very sustainable that combination of you know building a wall
• 1:06:07
  and separating the
• 1:06:08
  two because there is a lot of energy that goes into maintaining
• 1:06:12
  that wall and
• 1:06:14
  actually I find that you know that state of that those other
• 1:06:22
  states they're very
• 1:06:23
  SPEAKER_02: rich
• 1:06:24
  like in terms of information that they can provide for the
• 1:06:29
  waking life but it just
• 1:06:32
  you know but it also it also makes those decisions in the
• 1:06:39
  waking life look weird
• 1:06:42
  because they come from a different perceptual plane so that's
• 1:06:47
  kind of the you know
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_02: what I've been playing with um
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_02: I mean like what is real so we can each live a happy life?
• 1:07:07
  SPEAKER_03: Now the next question is what is happy life?
• 1:07:11
  Yeah but also funny enough like the basis of psychology and
• 1:07:16
  coaching for example is
• 1:07:19
  SPEAKER_01: all about changing like creating more potential perspectives on something
• 1:07:25
  and shifting yourself out of just a one way to look at it right
• 1:07:29
  like when you
• 1:07:30
  create more perspectives as possibilities then you start seeing
• 1:07:35
  that this thing you
• 1:07:36
  thought was real is only one potential possibility and that is
• 1:07:40
  the gateway to not
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_01: reality but what reality do you want to choose for yourself and pursue
• 1:07:54
  SPEAKER_01: Literally what's out there in terms of healing other than medication.
• 1:08:01
  SPEAKER_01: Well, even some medication, actually, we can make an argument there.
• 1:08:08
  SPEAKER_01: But all of it is about changing your state, right?
• 1:08:12
  SPEAKER_01: And or changing your perception.
• 1:08:15
  SPEAKER_01: So if perception is changeable, how can there be a reality change?
• 1:08:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, only many realities.
• 1:08:30
  So if there's many realities,
• 1:08:31
  why would I choose one that doesn't excite me?
• 1:08:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yes,
• 1:08:37
  SPEAKER_02: I guess,
• 1:08:37
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:08:38
  SPEAKER_02: the question is,
• 1:08:39
  is there an agreement in the society that we live in that a lot
• 1:08:43
  of different
• 1:08:44
  SPEAKER_02: realities are accepted and welcome,
• 1:08:48
  SPEAKER_02: maybe?
• 1:08:48
  SPEAKER_01: No, the agreement is that only one reality is accepted and welcome.
• 1:08:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes.
• 1:08:55
  Well not all of society is like that because look the three of
• 1:08:59
  us are here we make
• 1:09:00
  space for each other's realities you show up with a knife and a
• 1:09:04
  cowboy hat you're
• 1:09:05
  telling me that this is not real but I perceive this as very
• 1:09:08
  much part of you like
• 1:09:09
  SPEAKER_01: I believe this
• 1:09:11
  And Ira is saying this is like also something she had to really
• 1:09:15
  go deep to get to
• 1:09:17
  get access to and I'm like really I feel like this is totally
• 1:09:21
  you like I don't know
• 1:09:23
  I don't have that perception that this is not this is someone
• 1:09:26
  you only visit rarely
• 1:09:28
  SPEAKER_01: I believe the two of you I believe myself in this role So what's reality?
• 1:09:44
  Well how often for example in terms of the characters for
• 1:09:49
  example how often do I
• 1:09:53
  inhabit this character when I'm making steps when I do
• 1:10:03
  something in the physical
• 1:10:05
  SPEAKER_03: reality not when I'm just imagining something in my head
• 1:10:11
  from your perspective but from my perspective I've seen this
• 1:10:15
  persona many times so
• 1:10:18
  what's real your perception of this persona and how often you
• 1:10:26
  access it or my
• 1:10:27
  perception of how often I've seen it or is it all real or none
• 1:10:30
  of it is real
• 1:10:39
  I can also totally see that this is a very important persona
• 1:10:45
  for you like you know
• 1:10:46
  some big part of you that is there and you know like I think
• 1:10:52
  what really makes me
• 1:10:55
  interested in ways of combining a lot of realities or
• 1:11:01
  inhabiting a lot of realities
• 1:11:03
  SPEAKER_02: is that um
• 1:11:07
  SPEAKER_02: I've seen how things like that,
• 1:11:09
  just inhabiting a different persona in a really emphatic way or
• 1:11:17
  enacting something
• 1:11:19
  SPEAKER_02: from the position of a different perceptual reality,
• 1:11:22
  it creates almost an instantaneous shift in who you are in the
• 1:11:28
  waking reality and
• 1:11:29
  SPEAKER_02: what you are capable of.
• 1:11:32
  In Terms Of You Know Whatever Like Doing Being Creating In This
• 1:11:40
  In This In This
• 1:11:41
  Waking World And So That Makes It Also Kind Of A Thing That I
• 1:11:48
  Could Not See Myself
• 1:11:50
  SPEAKER_02: You Know Just Giving Up And Going To Therapy For For Five Years
• 1:11:58
  but to me you know like there is something there can be like
• 1:12:03
  almost a magical spark
• 1:12:05
  for example if let's say Ira appears here with us and we just
• 1:12:12
  happen to witness
• 1:12:13
  something that is really um that really wanted to be witnessed
• 1:12:21
  and then it's like
• 1:12:23
  SPEAKER_02: you know and something
• 1:12:27
  Defying timescale and our ideas about change and how it
• 1:12:33
  happens,
• 1:12:34
  it takes place just like that.
• 1:12:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's true.
• 1:12:42
  Sometimes when I'm wearing the wrong outfit and I think about a
• 1:12:45
  thing that needs to
• 1:12:46
  SPEAKER_01: happen,
• 1:12:48
  SPEAKER_01: I forget that actually I could totally do this thing.
• 1:12:52
  SPEAKER_01: Let me put on some overalls and I can fix this gate.
• 1:12:57
  SPEAKER_01: I just forget that I have access to all this stuff,
• 1:13:00
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:13:00
  SPEAKER_01: like if I'm wearing a dress,
• 1:13:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to be like,
• 1:13:02
  SPEAKER_01: oh,
• 1:13:03
  SPEAKER_01: how can I fix this freaking gate?
• 1:13:05
  SPEAKER_01: But if I put some overalls on, I could do it myself.
• 1:13:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, isn't that cool?
• 1:13:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:13:13
  I actually I wore this hat today at a different session that
• 1:13:19
  happened before our
• 1:13:21
  recording and I was like I was five minutes late because of
• 1:13:26
  this crazy difference
• 1:13:30
  time difference still between Europe and the States I'm just
• 1:13:35
  like joining the call
• 1:13:38
  SPEAKER_02: and um
• 1:13:40
  SPEAKER_02: The people know me and here I come in this hat, wearing this hat.
• 1:13:46
  SPEAKER_02: And somehow it's just wearing this hat.
• 1:13:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's again something like an artifact that you can touch.
• 1:13:54
  And yet that call and me in that call and with those people was
• 1:14:01
  different.
• 1:14:05
  SPEAKER_02: So
• 1:14:07
  SPEAKER_02: Was it the hat that was real?
• 1:14:09
  SPEAKER_02: Or was it another me that was real?
• 1:14:12
  SPEAKER_02: Or was it something in the air that was real?
• 1:14:15
  SPEAKER_01: Or them responding to the hat?
• 1:14:17
  SPEAKER_01: Them thinking, oh, this is weird.
• 1:14:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yulia's wearing this weird hat.
• 1:14:22
  SPEAKER_01: Did she come from some kind of Texas adventure?
• 1:14:25
  SPEAKER_01: What's happening?
• 1:14:26
  SPEAKER_01: Is she a horsewoman now?
• 1:14:28
  SPEAKER_01: Wait, is she off to the Amazon to do a dig?
• 1:14:31
  SPEAKER_01: What's happening?
• 1:14:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:14:36
  I showed up for a live event this past week in New York and I
• 1:14:43
  didn't wear my
• 1:14:44
  SPEAKER_01: glasses and my hair was down.
• 1:14:46
  SPEAKER_01: Usually on Zoom calls it's up.
• 1:14:48
  SPEAKER_01: And the women were like, oh, Polina, is this you?
• 1:14:52
  SPEAKER_01: They were all really surprised at me without glasses and my hair down.
• 1:14:57
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, oh my God, it really changes the perception.
• 1:15:01
  Just like those two simple things,
• 1:15:03
  glasses or no glasses and hair down or not.
• 1:15:06
  For some reason the perception of the person really shifts
• 1:15:11
  Exactly so it feels like
• 1:15:12
  almost there are these doors like invisible doors everywhere
• 1:15:18
  that you know but
• 1:15:21
  somehow to see these doors you cannot go too deep and just be
• 1:15:26
  too grounded in the
• 1:15:27
  waking reality and then the waking reality does want it to be
• 1:15:31
  grounded so sorry you
• 1:15:35
  SPEAKER_02: wanted to say something
• 1:15:41
  I just remember the story about the importance of the
• 1:15:44
  appearance and how it impacts
• 1:15:47
  the perception of other people and how it impacts their reality
• 1:15:52
  I just remember one
• 1:15:58
  SPEAKER_03: of my teachers of the feminine practices she used to say that
• 1:16:06
  when you make your hair when you put it high so it gives you
• 1:16:11
  the energy of like
• 1:16:13
  more power like more powerful woman and so like if you want to
• 1:16:18
  be more submissive
• 1:16:20
  you need to take your hair down you're like not well maybe lose
• 1:16:25
  but just not take
• 1:16:27
  SPEAKER_03: it high and I remember that I was dating a guy
• 1:16:34
  I think who had some sort of problems with the powerful woman
• 1:16:39
  because he was not
• 1:16:40
  very secure in himself and I was wearing this huge bun on the
• 1:16:47
  top of my head and in
• 1:16:50
  the middle of the date he's like very nervously he says please
• 1:16:56
  can you take it down
• 1:16:57
  SPEAKER_03: please you're making me nervous Wow
• 1:17:04
  SPEAKER_03: Wow!
• 1:17:06
  SPEAKER_02: And did you say, bye-bye, my love?
• 1:17:11
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, I didn't say that, but I took it down.
• 1:17:16
  SPEAKER_03: I thought, okay, poor guy.
• 1:17:17
  SPEAKER_03: He feels so nervous because of my pun.
• 1:17:20
  SPEAKER_03: I will be more submissive.
• 1:17:23
  SPEAKER_03: It didn't help him anyway.
• 1:17:29
  SPEAKER_01: But what an example.
• 1:17:32
  I mean I forget I forget how the externals can really inform
• 1:17:38
  the perceived reality
• 1:17:39
  from the outside because I'm always feeling me but even I guess
• 1:17:45
  today with this
• 1:17:46
  outfit I am occupying more of my sensual female right feminine
• 1:17:50
  energy than I would
• 1:17:52
  in a sweatshirt so then what the hell is real like so reality
• 1:17:56
  something we choose
• 1:17:57
  SPEAKER_01: to dress in the morning
• 1:18:02
  It is a type of reality And it does help you to occupy a
• 1:18:15
  certain state and your
• 1:18:19
  SPEAKER_03: state influences all other things of how you are interacting with
• 1:18:29
  the reality with the world around you with yourself okay so I
• 1:18:48
  must say that this
• 1:18:50
  SPEAKER_02: we're gonna be wrapping up and
• 1:19:00
  Yeah I must say that I'm still kind of wondering about reality
• 1:19:13
  and about maybe the
• 1:19:16
  SPEAKER_02: right questions that I might have asked but didn't ask but it was a fun
• 1:19:27
  Exploration and exploration for me to see is like it is even
• 1:19:32
  hard to like put my
• 1:19:35
  finger on it what like this is real and maybe it is due to the
• 1:19:42
  fact that when a lot
• 1:19:45
  of things are real to you then you might lose this like well
• 1:19:50
  how is it not real of
• 1:19:52
  SPEAKER_02: course this is real so I guess it's more about the interplay of
• 1:19:59
  living in the world and collective,
• 1:20:09
  which strongly disagrees with your realities,
• 1:20:21
  right?
• 1:20:23
  um yeah so I wonder let's just um you know maybe uh invite you
• 1:20:31
  to finish with
• 1:20:34
  anything maybe you know we're living with a question or
• 1:20:41
  whatever you are taking
• 1:20:44
  from our conversation I used to really want to have a sense of
• 1:20:52
  shared reality
• 1:20:55
  SPEAKER_01: and so that you know things could be more defined and contained and more
• 1:21:03
  predictable and yet that was very binding and very limiting and
• 1:21:15
  so in this season
• 1:21:18
  SPEAKER_01: of my life I find myself
• 1:21:21
  Completely on the outside of shared reality with many people
• 1:21:29
  but in certain
• 1:21:30
  containers more shared reality but on the outskirts of
• 1:21:37
  mainstream and it's very
• 1:21:40
  SPEAKER_01: freeing and it's there's joy and enjoyment and a sense of aliveness and
• 1:21:49
  My hope and dream would be that those of us that are in more of
• 1:21:54
  a straightforward
• 1:21:56
  reality would find some room for those of us that are not so
• 1:22:01
  that we could all
• 1:22:02
  still love one another and interact with one another with
• 1:22:06
  respect and spaciousness
• 1:22:09
  and I don't know if that is possible in this incarnation and
• 1:22:14
  that is what I have to
• 1:22:14
  SPEAKER_01: say
• 1:22:23
  I think what Polina said that this approach of accepting that
• 1:22:30
  the existence of
• 1:22:31
  multiple realities at the same time and so giving them space
• 1:22:38
  and letting them to
• 1:22:44
  SPEAKER_03: find this confluence,
• 1:22:47
  SPEAKER_03: convergence or just letting them be at the same time
• 1:22:53
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's a very good reminder.
• 1:22:56
  SPEAKER_03: I, for myself, still do want to have the experience of shared reality.
• 1:23:04
  SPEAKER_03: The thing is that the more I allow myself to be guided by this feeling of
• 1:23:13
  SPEAKER_03: aliveness,
• 1:23:16
  SPEAKER_03: the more I find these experiences.
• 1:23:18
  SPEAKER_03: So I don't have an illusion that
• 1:23:21
  the whole world will share my reality but like let them be like
• 1:23:26
  it's enough for me
• 1:23:27
  that I found the two of you and so like the more they do it the
• 1:23:33
  more I have this
• 1:23:35
  sense of like wow you're like this reality is very much shared
• 1:23:41
  so I have other
• 1:23:44
  groups with whom I might share other aspects of like of my
• 1:23:50
  other realities
• 1:23:53
  and so like as long as those interactions those contacts those
• 1:24:05
  shared realities
• 1:24:06
  SPEAKER_03: give me this experience of aliveness I think it's enough yeah um
• 1:24:27
  I think I yeah I came to really just treasure those experiences
• 1:24:35
  as maybe the
• 1:24:36
  experiences to live for experiences that emerge in this you
• 1:24:43
  know outside of the
• 1:24:47
  SPEAKER_02: waking consciousness and what I I think
• 1:24:58
  Where it leads me is how can I create and support more capacity
• 1:25:08
  in myself so that I
• 1:25:13
  really claim them as my reality and I inhabit them with like
• 1:25:20
  courage and owning
• 1:25:22
  SPEAKER_02: them because I found find that
• 1:25:26
  SPEAKER_02: Owning them,
• 1:25:27
  SPEAKER_02: which is very much tied to,
• 1:25:30
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:25:32
  SPEAKER_02: like my capacity to a lot of things about,
• 1:25:37
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:25:37
  SPEAKER_02: like what's going on in my personality or subconscious.
• 1:25:48
  you know my capacity really amplifies them me saying publicly
• 1:25:53
  yes I own them this
• 1:25:55
  is who I am those are my experiences it's as if they speak back
• 1:25:59
  and they say whoo
• 1:26:01
  yes yes to that so yeah that's really what I'm thinking about
• 1:26:12
  that's super
• 1:26:13
  SPEAKER_02: important
• 1:26:17
  SPEAKER_01: Wait, but can I also just want to add one more thing?
• 1:26:20
  SPEAKER_01: It brings me so much joy when the people that I interact with have range.
• 1:26:32
  SPEAKER_03: What do you mean?
• 1:26:34
  SPEAKER_01: There's different personas available.
• 1:26:37
  SPEAKER_01: There's different ways of interacting.
• 1:26:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like the two of you have range and I love that.
• 1:26:43
  SPEAKER_01: And it's so limiting.
• 1:26:46
  SPEAKER_01: To interact with someone who both doesn't have range within them,
• 1:26:51
  SPEAKER_01: but also doesn't have the capacity to hold range in someone else.
• 1:26:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's also boring.
• 1:27:00
  SPEAKER_02: Range.
• 1:27:01
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 1:27:03
  SPEAKER_02: Range.
• 1:27:04
  SPEAKER_02: Surprises, intrigues, things are possible.
• 1:27:09
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of things are possible.
• 1:27:12
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas when we're younger,
• 1:27:14
  we were taught that we need to pick one persona and really get
• 1:27:22
  super good at it and
• 1:27:24
  SPEAKER_01: just be that for the rest of your life.
• 1:27:27
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, the shackles.
• 1:27:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so how about we finish with our...
• 1:27:34
  Personas That Maybe We Started With Or Maybe They Have Slightly
• 1:27:40
  Changed Or Whatever
• 1:27:41
  SPEAKER_02: They Want To However They Want To Show Up
• 1:28:02
  I'm so delighted at your range Give me my horse I can give you
• 1:28:10
  my bird Will you
• 1:28:13
  SPEAKER_01: take a bird instead of a horse?
• 1:28:22
  SPEAKER_02: You tried to convince me baby You can talk about that Challenge accepted
• 1:28:34
  And I simply don't care Your range is so juicy girls Yeah
• 1:28:49
  wishing everything
• 1:28:52
  SPEAKER_02: wishing everyone those juicy ranges and reality that sometimes knocks you
• 1:29:01
  down because it's so juicy and incredible and so worth living
• 1:29:07
  for thank you for
• 1:29:10
  being with us I'm gonna think about having more episodes on
• 1:29:15
  this topic it has you
• 1:29:18
  know yeah I need to digest it but it was fun see you next time
• 1:29:28
  thank you see you
• 1:29:31
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for listening.
• 1:29:32
  SPEAKER_02: How was it for you?
• 1:29:34
  We believe that the more people experience group flow together,
• 1:29:39
  the better off we all are.
• 1:29:41
  SPEAKER_02: More connected, more creative, more alive.
• 1:29:45
  SPEAKER_02: So let's expand the field.
• 1:29:47
  SPEAKER_03: If this episode resonated with you, help us spread the word.
• 1:29:54
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• 1:29:58
  SPEAKER_03: We love you.
• 1:30:01
  SPEAKER_01: Let's keep flowing together.