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Financial Literacy as a Friendship Goal & Money Conversations We Should Be Having With Friends · Friendship IRL: Real Talk About Friendship, Community, and What It Actually Takes

• 0:00
  Podcast Intro/Outro: Hey! All righty, gang. Here's to nights that turn into mornings and friends that turn into family.
• 0:07
  Podcast Intro/Outro: Cheers! Hello, hello! Welcome to the Friendship IRL podcast. I'm your host Alex Alexander, and each week we explore what's working and what's not in our friendships, community, and connections. Have you ever wished you could sit down and have a conversation about what is really going on in your friendships? Well, you found your people. Join us as we dive into real-life stories and explore new ways to approach these connections. Together, we're reimagining the rules of friendship.
• 0:58
  Alex Alexander: It must have been about a decade or so ago, I don't remember the exact date, but I do remember sitting at girls' night with a good friend of mine, and we weren't talking about money or finance or anything like that. We were probably just sitting around—I don't know—talking about our week or talking about the workout class we went to or work. I don't really know. I just know it wasn't that serious until it got serious. You see, my friend decided to switch the convo to something a little more serious because I think she thought it was important. Like we all needed to know this information that it was important for our future and our safety, and for, you know, one of those like lessons you got to learn, unfortunately, from somebody else's hard experience.
• 1:47
  Alex Alexander: So that night, our friend proceeded to tell us about how, like, a friend of her mom's had recently lost her husband, and when she lost her husband, it became apparent to her kind of how much of her financial literacy she had given up. Her husband paid the bills, he managed the finances and the credit cards and the accounts and the retirement and the mortgages and the cars and the everything. So when he passed away, not only did she have a rapid fire lesson in kind of like, oh, that's where our accounts are, and that's our debts and our amounts of money and things like that. But the biggest lesson, the one my friend wanted to share with us all, is that in their very long marriage, the wife had never had a credit card in her own name, a mortgage in her own name, a car payment in her own name. She basically was a woman that lived an entire life, owned a house and a business and cars and things, and she had no credit, which meant that when she tried to sell one of their cars and buy a new car, they wouldn't give her a car loan. She had a hard time opening up credit cards that covered their monthly expenses. It just—it impacted so many areas of her life, and as we're sitting at girls' night, I will never forget how grateful I was for my friend sharing this information. Because quite frankly, I just wasn't paying attention to the nuances in my like young 20s of personal finance. It probably would have taken me way longer to realize how important it was to make sure that I always had credit in my name, and because we sat around and we talked about this experience and we talked about money, it is something I have shared with numerous friends. I have, I mean, I they don't even have to be a friend. Quite frankly, could be any woman where I get the spidey sense that maybe they have kind of given over all the control of their finances, and I share that story as a reminder of how important it is that we all talk to each other. It truly changed the way that I show up in my finances. So if we live in a world where none of our friends talk about money, where financial literacy isn't a goal that we all share, that we don't share resources and insights, just what a waste. Quite frankly, we're so much more powerful together. You know, I've seen a lot of conversations lately about how common it is for men to talk about a deal they closed, or the business they're going after, or the side hustle, or the goals they have, and for women to shy away from these kinds of conversations on any level. So today, as much as I have been hesitant to come back on here and talk about money, even though I think it is an incredibly important topic for me to cover, I've hesitated because how do I cover this episode today while also maintaining the confidences of my friends? I'll talk about this later in the episode, but I adore you all. We all know I protect my friendships. They are something I value so highly. So while I want to come on here and I want to share stories, I really had to think about how to be mindful in doing so because I don't want to disclose anything that would feel icky for me to disclose about my friends. So hopefully, I navigate that well in this episode today because I believe that so much of friendship out there is kind of these frameworks, right? Here's this Wheel of Connection. Now go take that and apply it. And part of what's missing are the stories. The stories are what give us color. It's like great.
• 6:03
  Alex Alexander: You can hand me a framework. You can hand me an exercise or something. But like, what are other people writing in those boxes? What does this look like in practice? We need more ideas, and that is why I created the Friendship IRL podcast. So the reason I wanted to do this episode is because about two and a half years ago, way back in the catalog, episode 61, I recorded an episode called "The Layers of Talking Money with Your Friends" with Sarah Roller, and at the time, I promised more money episodes, and then afterwards, I panicked a little bit because how do I share more stories with you about money while also being respectful of my friends? So I've spent about the last six-ish months trying to collect stories that I feel like I can share here today, and that's what we're gonna do. I hope that this gives you some inspiration for the different ways and levels at which you can talk money with your friends, because like I shared in that initial story, it truly might change the trajectory of your life or your friend's life. Now, because it's been a really long time since episode 61, let me give you a reminder of those five layers of talking money that I mentioned in that episode. The first one is layer one, just simply being open to talking about money. Maybe letting the people around you know that money is on your mind.
• 7:33
  Alex Alexander: I've been thinking about money a lot. I've been reading a lot of books about money. This is a big goal of mine for the year: is to pay more attention to my finances. No bigger conversation necessary. You're just signaling that maybe you are open to a conversation, and maybe you would engage and listen if somebody else also wanted to talk about money. Then we have layer two. Layer two was talking about resources and the why, so it's maybe sharing what you use and why it is working for you.
• 8:08
  Alex Alexander: You can talk about, you know, I use a certain budgeting app. We have these credit cards because we, you know, spend more on Amazon or we want to travel or we dine out a lot, so we get more cash back on this credit card. You could share the name of a CPA or a financial advisor that you're using. You could tell them that you're reading certain articles, or you're listening to a certain podcast, following a certain YouTube series, working through some sort of book. I think sharing the resources themselves is absolutely enough, and if you want to kind of, you know, have an advanced level two, then the why is the real magic because it's starting to help your friends figure out how this fits in their life, and quite honestly, fills in some blanks about your own life. Right? If I explain that I'm using a certain credit card because we want to travel more, and getting those points allows us to travel, that's giving my friends some idea of the priority that travel takes in my life later down the line when I'm taking those trips. My friends aren't wondering, you know, how the heck are they paying for that?
• 9:17
  Alex Alexander: They know we have been intentionally using credit card points and maximizing our points and things like that for a while.
• 9:27
  Alex Alexander: Like, right, it fills in some of the gaps where you're left wondering, like, "Oh, wow, how are they doing that?" We've all had that about friends when it comes to money. Then we have layer three, which is goals, right? Naming what you're working towards. You want to pay off a debt or a credit card or a business loan, you're saving for a house or a trip. When you're sharing these goals, you don't again necessarily need to share numbers. You can just share the goal. I've always wanted to be able to afford to take a certain trip, afford to start that business, afford to take a sabbatical, whatever it is. And when you share that, it starts explaining to your friends maybe certain choices you're making, right? Like I can't take that girls' trip this year. I have to skip out because I am just a couple months away from paying off my credit card, and that was my number one goal for the year.
• 10:22
  Alex Alexander: That fills in a lot of color for your friendships. A lot of things that otherwise, when your friend said no, like yes, you might respect them and be like, okay, well, whatever you need.
• 10:33
  Alex Alexander: But now, when you know why, that's just another layer of understanding your friends.
• 10:40
  Alex Alexander: Layer four is talking about mechanics. How do you actually do it? So, if your goal is to pay off your credit card, you could talk about the credit cards that you have, the interest rates. You don't need to talk about the balance. You could talk about percentages of, you know, you're trying to use 10% of every paycheck to pay off that credit card. You could talk about your savings setup. You could talk about taxes, wills, how you split costs with friends or partners or roommates. You could talk about places where maybe family has contributed to an expense in your life. Still no dollar amounts, but it does fill in a lot of the how are we making this work, and it allows not only you to maybe crowdsource ideas for what you could do on your own, but if you're sharing like your saving setup, right? We have three accounts, and we put money in them in certain ways. We have a tax account. We set up our will like this. That gives so many ideas to your friends without ever discussing a number. And then layer five is actually talking about numbers, salaries, mortgage, savings. You can do percentages here, right? Like, is your mortgage above or below 20% of your take-home pay? And these are definitely deeper conversations for friends with a lot of trust and context. Now, I don't necessarily think that you like move up this ladder of layers at any speed. I think that maybe in one area you might be more willing to use a higher layer. So, for example, if you were talking with your friends about your goals for saving for your kids' college, you might be willing to say the amount of money you're trying to save and how many years you're trying to save that in, but maybe when it comes to your mortgage or the amount you have saved, you really stick to like a layer two or three where you're sharing your resources and the goals.
• 14:04
  Alex Alexander: But that's about it. With some friends, you might be willing to dive deeper, and with other friends, you definitely might be keeping it on those simpler layers. I have talked money with so many friends at this point that I don't think there is any exact way to predict. Like, quite frankly, it could be your closest, most present, most trusted friend where you actually don't talk money with them. It might be easier to talk money with your work friend or your defined friend, with your neighbor. It just depends on that relationship, on jealousy and different sore spots, what their goals are, how they overlap with yours, how that makes you feel. So I can't say that it gets easier the more I talk money with friends, but I do think that every time I brave this topic with a friend, it does leave me feeling so much more connected.
• 15:02
  Alex Alexander: I have so much more understanding for my friends and how they're living their lives, the choices they're making, the setup they have—I can't tell you the number of times I've had conversations with people where I do really feel like something I've shared could maybe change their life, and the number of times where a friend has shared something with me, even something maybe that I'm jealous of, and it has made me realize, like, oh wow, okay, that's possible. How do I do that?
• 15:32
  Alex Alexander: Okay, so I've given you the framework again. That's great, but I told you that I was going to tell you some stories, and I have been trying to think of those. So a recent conversation I had a few months ago with a friend was kind of a mix of some layer two and layer five, we kind of moved between layers. So we started talking about how my friend is going back to school for an advanced degree, right?
• 15:58
  Alex Alexander: And that's an expensive cost.
• 16:03
  Alex Alexander: Now I have not known if they are taking out loans, if they are paying this in chunks, I don't know how much tuition is. Are they splitting it out? Like, are they trying to compress it, which means more costs in a short period of time? Are they trying to stretch it out? Are they paying it on their own? And this ended up being a conversation where they shared exactly how they're paying it, and kind of on what schedule and what that cost is, it created so much more understanding for the choices that they're making right now. We also talked about cars. The thing about getting a new car: do they buy a new car, a used car? If they buy a new car, then how long would they keep that car for? Are the maintenance costs high on that car? I would say that this was a little bit more of like a layer two conversation because we were talking a lot more about like the why behind their choices, some of the resources they're looking at, some of the mechanics, but we never discussed what kind of car loan they would get, how much money they could put down for a down payment, or how much they think they could sell their other car for. Those are all definitely a little bit more of a higher layer. And so the point here being, you're not necessarily in one conversation like always at a layer five and always at a layer two, you might kind of switch between them depending on what your friend or you feel like disclosing. Now, looking back at this conversation, the other thing to note is, I think we were just mainly talking about their life. I can't actually think of anything money-related that I necessarily disclosed, like I didn't talk about us buying a new car.
• 17:53
  Alex Alexander: Neither one of us are getting an advanced degree at the moment.
• 17:57
  Alex Alexander: So this really was like a one-sided share from my friend that gave me a lot of insight into the choices that they're making right now. Another conversation I had recently with a friend was about her business.
• 18:15
  Alex Alexander: We were talking about the business expenses she has every month, certain subscriptions, certain contractors, about how profitable her business is, how much is in her savings. We talked about different accounts where she's getting different interest on her savings. We're talking about how much of like an owner draw she was taking, and then this whole conversation led into a you know like if she did maybe some more side gigs, side jobs, like how much more money could she funnel into personal savings right now to like make up for maybe taking some more risks in her business.
• 18:56
  Alex Alexander: This was absolutely a deeper conversation, right? A lot of layer four mechanics type conversation, some stuff where we talked about like percentage of her income that she is saving, which is layer five, and then we kind of closed it out with this whole side work conversation, which is layer three. So again, it's not like we are fully in one layer. In this one, I also shared a bunch about my business, what I'm doing, my margins, and the softwares I'm using, and the things I'm using, and what my run rate is, and things like that. This was definitely more of an equal conversation.
• 19:44
  Alex Alexander: Another friend, about I don't know, four months ago or so, we were talking about how she wanted to buy a new house, which is a lot of like a layer three kind of goal conversation, right? She wants to buy a new house. We talked about what neighborhood and therefore kind of what that costs, what she wants in the house, how much space she wants, and that was also a lot of layer two, like why a lot of values and feelings under this, right? She wants a space where they can work out at home. Health is really important to them, so being able to just get up and do that in the house would be a very big value add to their life. Meanwhile, I don't mind getting in the car and going to the gym. Like that is not something that would be make-or-break for me, but it's very, very, very important for her. And now that whole conversation again is like a lot of like the goals for their life and the why and the values and the feelings underneath it.
• 20:51
  Alex Alexander: Never once did we talk about really like a hard number, what their budget was, what that would break down into in a mortgage payment, where they would get that loan, how much family contribution there may or may not be. How much they've saved. We didn't share a single number, but we did spend about an hour talking about money, basically, and why we would value or not value paying more for certain things. And then maybe my favorite story and example of them all for you, because I feel like this one is so accessible. So I mentioned earlier about credit card points, and what maybe I should mention now, I've talked about this on my Instagram. But Michael and I learned about credit card points from a friend. This was not an interest. We didn't follow a bunch of Instagram people. We didn't inherently know how to do this, but over time, some friends of ours explained how they were traveling and booking flights on credit card points.
• 21:53
  Alex Alexander: And the more that we talked about it, and we love travel, the more we thought to ourselves, like, well, gosh, why aren't we learning this skill?
• 22:01
  Alex Alexander: And so eventually, we asked our friends, like, hey, could you teach us more? Could you teach us what you've learned about how to maximize accruing the points?
• 22:10
  Alex Alexander: How do we use them in the most efficient way and get like the best? What is like CPM, CPC, something, whatever? Like the best, basically cost per point, CPP. That's the—there we go. It was like a whole way to talk about money without ever really disclosing a single thing, and it was a way for them to teach us something. Right? We learned from our friends. The more that we learned, the more other friends learned. And now there's like a whole group of us where it is very common to talk about how we are using and maximizing our points for travel. Now, the other interesting thing I want to point out about the credit card points is that I think it's actually a great way, and there are other ways. This isn't the only way to maybe practice talking about numbers in a less charged way, because if I tell you that I have, I don't know, 500,000 credit card points and you have 20,000, you're probably just like, "Oh, okay, that's nice. You have 500,000 credit card points. Love that. You're gonna have a fun trip." But if I tell you that I have $500,000 in my bank account and you have$20, $200, $20,000, I don't know if it really matters. You're probably like, "Oh wow, am I behind on savings? Am I not doing what I should do? Am I not earning the same amount?" Right?
• 23:40
  Alex Alexander: There's so much charge to money that is not necessarily there when we talk about other numbers, and the reason I just point this out is because if you are somebody who wants to talk more with friends about money and you want to practice talking numbers, there are creative ways to do so that doesn't exactly involve finance, and it also doesn't have to be credit card points. When I have money conversations with my friends, they give me so much. They give me understanding of my friends' priorities.
• 24:19
  Alex Alexander: They give me understanding of how secure they feel. Right? At the end of the day, money makes you feel abundant, or it makes you feel scarce and concerned and unstable. So when we talk about it, I can get a sense of whether they feel strained or whether they feel like they're doing okay, which boils down to things like if something bad happened in their life, do they feel like they could pick up and move to be closer to an elderly relative? Could they replace a car? Could they leave a relationship and get their own place? And whether that's their credit score or the amount of money they have in the bank, that just gives you so much insight into how they are feeling when it comes to their financial stability. It also allows you to give grace both ways. So, if, for example, I know that my friend has a really big goal to pay off a bunch of debt, maybe it's like medical debt. It's not even debt she necessarily accrued by choice, and that has been weighing over her, and she's been feeling a lot of stress lately, and some other friend in the group doesn't know this, and suggests we go out to a fancy restaurant for a birthday dinner. I'm still happy my friend got invited, but when she tells them she can't accept the invite, it allows me at least to understand why. Now, if more people knew, obviously the hope would be that everybody would have a little more grace when she's like, "Oh, sorry, I can't this time. Like, I'm just dealing with some financial stuff." But if I'm the one having those conversations, even if I'm not sharing them with the broader group, there is something to be said about knowing your friend's inner world, about knowing that this is really weighing on her right now, about checking in and being like, "Hey, I'm really thinking about you. I'm cheering you on.
• 26:17
  Alex Alexander: How can I help?" I think the other thing about these conversations about money with friends is that they've given me broader horizons. When I hear friends' savings, retirement, money goals, it leaves me inspired. It has shifted how I think. I am more aware of savings or financial options if some sort of surprise expense appears in my life. I am more financially creative and introspective. At the end of the day, it feels like there are more routes instead of just one.
• 26:54
  Alex Alexander: And when I was trying to think of an example of this, like the simplest, silliest in my mind example could be this. Right, the more we broaden our horizons and hear what our other friends are doing. Maybe you made a bad purchase online, like you bought off some scammy website or TikTok shop, and the item arrived, and you paid more money than you want to admit. And like that item arrived. Here's a great one. You thought you were getting like a full-size human person sweatshirt. I actually know that this happened to somebody I know, and you bought this item off TikTok because it looks so cute, and then it arrived and it's like the size of a doll sweater, but you paid I don't know $200 for this thing, and now you're dealing with this scam, and if you didn't have your friends, you might just be like, "Oh wow, well, I'm out $200." But if you and your friends even just talk about some of the more basic layers, your friend might know that you have a certain credit card, and that that credit card has basically like scam protection, and you can submit a claim and have that money refunded to you. So, when I talk about broadening your horizons, yes, it could be something big, like realizing that you can go for a promotion, or you can have a different type of savings account that's going to make you more interest, and in the long run, make a really big impact in your retirement savings. But it can also be something as simple as your friend knowing that you and her have the same credit card, and there's protection that you've never read the fine print on, and you can get your$200 back. Could be as simple as that. Now, of course, talking about money also has hard parts.
• 28:51
  Alex Alexander: As I mentioned before, when I was trying to compare the credit card points to the amount in your savings account, there can be a lot of jealousy or feeling like you're left behind.
• 29:00
  Alex Alexander: Sometimes feeling judged, especially because money—you know—when you make a big money decision, like to whether or not to buy a house, for example, if your friends don't think you should buy that house, in order to put down hundreds of thousands, millions of dollars, like you have to have a lot of conviction that you're making the right big purchase for yourself, that this aligns with what you want and your goals. So if your friends are questioning that and you feel judged, like I get it. That's a rough feeling.
• 29:29
  Alex Alexander: If this is you and this is part of why you're holding back, I would suggest that you go listen to Episode 168, Jealous of a Friend? Here's What That Feeling Is Actually Telling You. I talk about jealousy in that episode, but I also think it can apply to feeling left behind or feeling judged, because at the end of the day, those feelings are information. They're information about where you are, where you want to go, what is important to you. It actually has less to do with your friends. Often, like if your friend is judging you for—they don't believe in—you know, they think renting is better than buying, for example, and that's just really a hill they will die on. And you're buying this house, and they kind of seem to be judging you. That is information about your values, about what is important to you, about their values. It's not necessarily that you're doing anything wrong. It's just information about both of you.
• 30:30
  Alex Alexander: Now, when we're talking about jealousy or feeling left behind, I also think that when we're talking about money, I think I talked about this in that episode. Actually, there's something to be said about realizing that this thing that you want, right? You want to hit a certain salary marker, like an income band, and you never thought that was possible for yourself. And your friend gets a promotion, and now you're jealous because you can't believe they're making that salary. It can be extra intense, that jealousy, especially with money, because suddenly what you thought was a pipe dream is not.
• 31:09
  Alex Alexander: It's real, and your friend, a very real person with all their flaws and quirks and delightful things about them, like suddenly they have done it, and so now it's like, well, why can't I do it? And that I think is a lot of the times where the jealousy comes from, and it may take time to process and accept that you're not where you want to be, but I really do think that once you do work through that, once you separate it, like wow, how powerful to now have someone to sit down with and be like, hey, I want to hit that salary. Tell me about the conversation you had. How did you ask for more money? Did they give it to you on the first try? Can I negotiate from here? What other things can I negotiate? My benefits, maybe. Actually, earlier when I was saying that there are other more creative ways to talk, benefits is another great one. Benefits boil down to money. When I was talking about like credit card points, there were other ones, and then my brain couldn't think of more. Benefits is a great one. Talk about your benefits with your friends. What are your medical benefits? What is your 401(k) match? That all feels so much less charged than maybe like disclosing what your salary is. I think the other hard part is again like these comparison and numbers. It takes work to feel less comparison when it comes to just numbers with your friends, and that's why I often talk about talking about like the why and the mechanics behind it. Because if you just lead with the numbers and you're like, "Well, I make this salary," that can lead to just you know like a singular point of comparison when you step back and you're like, "Wow, actually, we really got into this, right?
• 33:02
  Alex Alexander: They're a family of six, we're a family of two, so although yes, that is a higher salary, really they're probably living a similar quality of life.
• 33:14
  Alex Alexander: I actually have a bunch of benefits that they don't have. I get way more PTO and way more flexibility, and that matters to me more than a certain number on the salary. So, while it's hard to compare numbers, if you get there, talking about the why can make such a big difference.
• 33:32
  Alex Alexander: Another hard part is if you and a friend and you get good at this and you start talking about money more, you might know more than the group. You might know more than your spouse. You might know more than their spouse, you might know all sorts of things that other people just don't know. They haven't been let in, and there is something to be said about having to protect the vulnerable shares that your friends have let you in on. And if that's something that you're wondering how to do more of, I actually recorded an entire episode, Episode 181, The Secrets We Keep (For Our Friends). That'd be a good one to listen to. So, if we zoom out, just way out, I want to tie this all together on why I think this is so important and why I hope I can inspire you to even have a layer one or two conversation about money with your friends at some point. This work that I do when it comes to friendship, often I feel like society has really sold us like one version of friendship.
• 34:32
  Alex Alexander: Right? Find a best friend, hold on forever, keep a tight circle.
• 34:36
  Alex Alexander: Maybe you have a couple acquaintances, you lean on your family, and then we come to this podcast where we kind of blow all that up. Right, we share stories that show us how there are infinite different ways to build connection that feels right to you. And even though I don't really share names or I try not to share identifying details about my friends, you still get ideas from what I've shared with you. Now, maybe they'd be a clearer, more concise story if I used a name, so I'm sorry that sometimes they're vague and kind of windy.
• 35:15
  Alex Alexander: But I think there's power in the story, even when I'm trying to protect my relationships. Now, if I did share names with you, if we got together and we sat down at a coffee table, I might be more willing to tell you the name of the certain friend that I shared that story about, right? And that's more of like a layer five. Money works the same way. Even the simple layers without numbers still give us ideas, open doors, and show the possibility of the different choices we can make and where they might lead us long term, and so even though you might think there is like only one way to handle talking about money with friends, we shouldn't talk about money with friends. It creates awkwardness. If we start to break that mold, if we realize that this idea of how to handle money with friends that society has sold us, that maybe there are other ways, and we share stories like this on the podcast that give you ideas for the ways you can do that. Then not only will you realize that there are infinite ways to build your Wheel of Connection and show up in your friendships, but maybe, just maybe, those conversations with your friends will lead you to believe that there are infinitely more possibilities when it comes to your finances, your freedom, and the way that you set up your life. So I guess what I'm trying to say is, maybe put yourself out there and try and have a layer one conversation with a friend about money this week, or if you do normally talk about money, even in that like abstract way where it's about goals, recognize that you're doing something vulnerable with your friends. Maybe spend some time trying to appreciate an idea related to money that you gave a friend, whether it was a credit card to open or a way to handle debt, or how you've managed to pay off your student loans or refinance them. It could be sharing certain benefits you have at work and encouraging them to negotiate for those in their upcoming promotion.
• 37:20
  Alex Alexander: There are so many ways to talk about money and open doors when it comes to friendship and connection and just broadening our horizons in what's possible in our lives. So, if you want to dive more into the layers of money, head to episode 61. And otherwise, I would love to hear from you. The more stories we can get about talking about money with friends, the better.
• 37:42
  Alex Alexander: With that, I'll see you next week.
• 37:46
  Podcast Intro/Outro: Thank you for listening to this episode of Friendship IRL. I am so honored to have these conversations with you, but don't let the chat die here. Send me a voice message. I created a special website just to chat with you. You can find it at Alex Alex dot chat. You can also find me on Instagram.
• 38:08
  Podcast Intro/Outro: My handle at it's Alex Alexander, or go ahead and leave a review wherever you prefer to listen to podcasts. Now, if you want to take this conversation a step further, send this episode to a friend, tell them you found it interesting, and use what we just talked about as a conversation starter. The next time you and your friend hang out, no need for a teary goodbye. I'll be back with a new episode next week.