Latest / Wits & Weights | Strength & Fat Loss Over 40 / The Surprising Truth About Diet Soda and Fat Loss (Can It Be GOOD for You?) | Ep 208

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The Surprising Truth About Diet Soda and Fat Loss (Can It Be GOOD for You?) | Ep 208 · Wits & Weights | Strength & Fat Loss Over 40

• 0:07
  Philip Pape: you've heard that diet soda is terrible for you, that it causes cancer, weight gain and metabolic issues.
• 0:15
  Philip Pape: But what if conventional wisdom is not only wrong.
• 0:18
  Philip Pape: What if these cold, fizzy, zero calorie, artificially sweetened beverages could actually help you lose fat and improve your health?
• 0:25
  Philip Pape: Today, we're challenging assumptions to support the seemingly strange concept that, yes, diet soda can actually be a helpful tool.
• 0:32
  Philip Pape: Whether you're battling sugar cravings, trying to create a calorie deficit or simply looking for a guilt-free treat, this episode will give you the nuance and, very possibly, peace of mind you're looking for when it comes to diet soda.
• 0:54
  Philip Pape: Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.
• 0:58
  Philip Pape: I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're diving into the controversial world of diet soda with my friends Dustin Lambert and Dwayne Ulrich from the Working Weights LLC podcast.
• 1:08
  Philip Pape: Go, follow it right now.
• 1:10
  Philip Pape: Pause, find it.
• 1:11
  Philip Pape: Follow it.
• 1:12
  Philip Pape: Dustin, who's been on the show before, is a strength and nutrition coach with over a decade of experience specializing in metabolic syndrome and helping countless clients transform their bodies.
• 1:22
  Philip Pape: He's also one of the best guys I know when it comes to unraveling nutrition research.
• 1:27
  Philip Pape: Dwayne is the everyday ombudsman on their podcast.
• 1:29
  Philip Pape: He's a renaissance man of sorts, having been a high school educator in history and science, a coach for track and field, softball, baseball, volleyball, soccer, everything except the Olympics, a firefighter, police officer and x-ray technician.
• 1:43
  Philip Pape: In short, I think he's ready for anything.
• 1:45
  Philip Pape: Today, we're going to discuss how diet soda can fit into a smart nutrition plan and examine the potential health benefits which might surprise you.
• 1:53
  Philip Pape: We'll also dive into the evidence on artificial sweeteners and diet soda, including fat loss, obesity, insulin, diabetes and more, to give you the full picture, so you can unfollow the fear-mongering fitfluencers and rely instead on evidence to make the best decision for your goals.
• 2:08
  Philip Pape: Dustin Dwayne, welcome to the show.
• 2:11
  Philip Pape: My friends, thank you, thank you.
• 2:13
  Dwayne Ulrich: Glad to be here, man.
• 2:14
  Dwayne Ulrich: Glad to be here, it's an honor.
• 2:16
  Philip Pape: So I actually want to start with Dwayne, as the every man on BuzzAid Break the ice dude.
• 2:38
  Dwayne Ulrich: Just get it out of your system, okay, and Dustin's ego is going to be just fine here.
• 2:40
  Dwayne Ulrich: So I think I think so.
• 2:40
  Dwayne Ulrich: Here's my question for you, super simple what are the some of the scary things that dive off into the ingredients and what the sweeteners were?
• 2:47
  Dwayne Ulrich: It kind of freaks me out a little bit.
• 2:48
  Dwayne Ulrich: The only thing that and my interest in diet sodas came to me when I heard about I believe it was like I think maybe the army or something that guys really wanted a lot of diet Coke.
• 3:00
  Dwayne Ulrich: Diet Coke was one of the favorite things that they had.
• 3:03
  Dwayne Ulrich: So you know the US shipped diet Coke over to to them on these big pallets but they sat outside you know they're in like, I guess, in Iraq and heat on these Diet Cokes and these guys were drinking these Cokes but they'd been sitting out in the heat and they started getting lethargic and sleepy and I'm like that doesn't sound right to me.
• 3:21
  Dwayne Ulrich: So that's when I started taking a deep dive off into what the sweeteners were made of and what they look like.
• 3:28
  Dwayne Ulrich: Just listening to chemical contents or maybe about which we're not going to really talk about today, but chemical contents and how they're made kind of freaked me out a little bit.
• 3:39
  Dwayne Ulrich: It's weird.
• 3:41
  Philip Pape: Yeah, yeah, I would agree, man.
• 3:43
  Philip Pape: You know we've heard for years like the fewer ingredients the better, or if it's made in a lab, steer clear.
• 3:49
  Philip Pape: Or if you can't pronounce the ingredient, don't eat it.
• 3:52
  Philip Pape: There's, who is that on instagram.
• 3:53
  Philip Pape: She's hilarious, the nutrition, oh, you guys might know who she is.
• 3:56
  Philip Pape: She will like talk about a food that has all these chemicals and then she'll reveal that it's a banana you know, she'll say like there's all these chemicals and it's actually a banana I can't remember the name, uh gosh.
• 4:07
  Philip Pape: Yeah, I know you're talking about yeah, like a dietician, pharmacist, whatever, yeah.
• 4:11
  Philip Pape: And then the diet coke in the army thing.
• 4:12
  Philip Pape: I hadn't heard that.
• 4:13
  Philip Pape: What would you say today?
• 4:14
  Philip Pape: So do you drink it today, duane?
• 4:16
  Philip Pape: Do you drink diet soda?
• 4:17
  Dwayne Ulrich: no, no, not really because it scares me or anything.
• 4:20
  Dwayne Ulrich: But okay, man, I just don't like the taste.
• 4:22
  Philip Pape: You you don't like the taste, kind of chemically to you.
• 4:24
  Dwayne Ulrich: Well, I just want to say I need to be full disclosure.
• 4:27
  Dwayne Ulrich: I drink almost no soft drinks Okay cool.
• 4:31
  Dwayne Ulrich: I don't like the taste of the diet cokes.
• 4:36
  Dwayne Ulrich: I don't drink a lot of the diet drinks at all, never have and the content of sugar and other soft drinks.
• 4:43
  Dwayne Ulrich: It just doesn't fit my nutrition plan.
• 4:46
  Philip Pape: Sure, yeah.
• 4:46
  Philip Pape: So perfectly valid reason.
• 4:48
  Philip Pape: You don't like it.
• 4:48
  Philip Pape: It doesn't fit for you.
• 4:49
  Philip Pape: Yeah, love it.
• 4:50
  Philip Pape: Dustin, now, if diet soda kills you, why are you comfortable drinking it right now?
• 4:55
  Philip Pape: And what are you drinking?
• 4:58
  Dustin Lambert: Yeah, that is a good question, there we go.
• 5:03
  Dwayne Ulrich: Oh man Wait a minute.
• 5:05
  Dustin Lambert: He's got the classic the silver can, the classic I have the silver can, although I do think that the that dr pepper zero probably tastes the closest to the real thing.
• 5:15
  Dustin Lambert: However, where I have currently moved to like, a 12 pack of something is insanely expensive.
• 5:23
  Dustin Lambert: So buying a 24 packpack of Diet Coke so that's the only reason I have Diet Coke is just because of the price, but I do like the Dr Pepper Zero's best.
• 5:32
  Philip Pape: It is one of the most profitable products on the market.
• 5:35
  Philip Pape: I mean, you think they're just adding a tiny bit of, they're squirting in this tiny bit of syrup into water and they're basically selling water, right?
• 5:41
  Philip Pape: So again why am I not dead?
• 5:44
  Philip Pape: Yeah, why are you not dead?
• 5:45
  Philip Pape: I mean, we know how awful this stuff is.
• 5:47
  Philip Pape: Man, what are you doing yourself?
• 5:48
  Philip Pape: I?
• 5:49
  Dustin Lambert: guess.
• 5:49
  Dustin Lambert: Um, I don't know, maybe I'm a superhero.
• 5:52
  Philip Pape: Yeah, I mean, you are right so your, your gut, just like, just like churns that stuff into gold and you're good, right, pretty much.
• 6:03
  Dustin Lambert: Pretty much, yes.
• 6:03
  Dustin Lambert: And then, um, you know, the rest of it is excreted in urine.
• 6:07
  Dustin Lambert: Through excellence, so through excellence.
• 6:10
  Philip Pape: Okay, got to bottle that up, all right, so all right.
• 6:15
  Philip Pape: And also quasi seriousness.
• 6:16
  Philip Pape: We don't have to get all serious, can the premise of this, this episode and people are looking at the title, thinking diet soda is good for you.
• 6:22
  Philip Pape: It sounds like clickbait.
• 6:23
  Philip Pape: They're going to turn it around.
• 6:25
  Philip Pape: It's going to be this myth that we're breaking, like no, of course it's terrible for you or it can't be good for you.
• 6:29
  Philip Pape: Can it be good for you?
• 6:31
  Philip Pape: Like, let's start there and then we can break into the details.
• 6:35
  Dustin Lambert: Yep, so can it be good for you?
• 6:36
  Dustin Lambert: I think that the answer is yes.
• 6:50
  Dustin Lambert: It's kind of a weird position to defend here, but yeah, so I'm definitely up for the challenge, looking into it and so just to caveat, the entire podcast here.
• 6:54
  Dustin Lambert: I don't think it's the best thing that you could be drinking, but I'm going to be the lawyer for diet soda here today and I'm going to make the case that it can be particularly good for you, especially in certain circumstances.
• 7:08
  Dustin Lambert: So, context matters is what you're saying.
• 7:09
  Dustin Lambert: Context definitely matters, yeah.
• 7:12
  Philip Pape: Okay, how would you put it compared to alcohol, on the spectrum of beverages that are, quote unquote, good for you in general or depending on context?
• 7:22
  Dustin Lambert: On a scale of one to 10, it's probably a 12.
• 7:25
  Dustin Lambert: Better than alcohol, all right.
• 7:29
  Philip Pape: Okay, just lay in the relative things for people, because everybody loves to drink alcohol.
• 7:36
  Dustin Lambert: Yeah, I was going to say so that might jump into the cancer concerns right away.
• 7:41
  Dustin Lambert: So there are concerns for cancer regarding this stuff.
• 7:45
  Dustin Lambert: Probably the one sweetener that most people are familiar with would be aspartame, and that was recently added to the IARC list of carcinogens.
• 7:55
  Dustin Lambert: Now it's in the category of 2B, as in Bravo, which is a probable carcinogen, and it's in there with other things like pumping gas in your car, asian pickled vegetables, like a whole bunch of stuff.
• 8:06
  Dustin Lambert: And it's in there with other things like pumping gas in your car, asian pickled vegetables, like a whole bunch of stuff.
• 8:08
  Dustin Lambert: And it's hard to argue against the word probable, like is is stuff probably carcinogen?
• 8:13
  Dustin Lambert: Yeah, probably.
• 8:15
  Dustin Lambert: Alcohol, on the other hand, is a definite known carcinogen.
• 8:21
  Dustin Lambert: I believe that's class one class one.
• 8:22
  Dustin Lambert: I could be wrong.
• 8:23
  Dustin Lambert: So there's class one, class two a, class two B, and then you have class three, which is just not at all.
• 8:29
  Dustin Lambert: Uh, so alcohol is, I believe it's a class one carcinogen.
• 8:32
  Dustin Lambert: So, on the basis of you know whether it causes cancer or not, like should you drink diet soda instead of an alcoholic beverage?
• 8:40
  Dustin Lambert: Yeah, absolutely yes.
• 8:45
  Philip Pape: And that's a.
• 8:46
  Philip Pape: That's a great point.
• 8:46
  Philip Pape: Right there I think we're going to hit on throughout the show.
• 8:47
  Philip Pape: A lot of this is relative.
• 8:49
  Philip Pape: It really is relative.
• 8:51
  Philip Pape: I was on a show recently with and I'm not going to name names a very established nutrition coach who was asking me about some of these corner cases and things and I said you know, in a flexible diet, in context, these things are okay in small amounts, no big deal If it works for you.
• 9:06
  Philip Pape: What I want to do is take somebody from a 60% ultra-processed standard American diet with probably three cans of regular Coke, to something better than that, at least as step one, and then continue down that line.
• 9:18
  Philip Pape: So this kind of all or nothing like we need to eat clean, we need to cut everything out.
• 9:22
  Philip Pape: How dare you tell your clients that they can drink diet soda?
• 9:25
  Philip Pape: I think it's self-righteous at best and then it's unhelpful at worst.
• 9:32
  Philip Pape: So if someone says okay, why, if there's a probability right in quotes of it being cancers?
• 9:40
  Philip Pape: Why just be safe?
• 9:41
  Philip Pape: Better safe than sorry?
• 9:42
  Philip Pape: Why not just avoid it completely because of that answer?
• 9:45
  Dustin Lambert: is why just be safe?
• 9:46
  Dustin Lambert: Better safe than sorry.
• 9:47
  Dustin Lambert: Why not just avoid it completely because of that?
• 9:49
  Dustin Lambert: Yeah, you could make that argument and, again, context matters.
• 9:51
  Dustin Lambert: So it really depends on where you're starting from.
• 9:53
  Dustin Lambert: So, like you said, you want to take somebody from an ultra-processed diet, where maybe they are consuming sugar-sweetened sodas or other sugar-sweetened beverages, and we want to gradually, over time, get them to something that's more whole food, single ingredient.
• 10:12
  Dustin Lambert: You're consuming water, tea, stuff like that, so using it throughout that process and then even during fat loss phases.
• 10:21
  Dustin Lambert: For if you're periodizing your nutrition plan, which you should be, it can be quite helpful in those cases, formalizing this logically wise though to make that argument.
• 10:34
  Dustin Lambert: Well, if it's probably carcinogenic, why don't we just avoid all the things on the probable carcinogen?
• 10:40
  Dustin Lambert: Stop driving your car.
• 10:40
  Dustin Lambert: Stop wearing clothes that have dye in them.
• 10:41
  Dustin Lambert: Using cell phones?
• 10:41
  Dustin Lambert: Yeah, stop driving your car.
• 10:42
  Dustin Lambert: Stop wearing clothes that have dye in them.
• 10:44
  Dustin Lambert: You know like.
• 10:45
  Dustin Lambert: Using cell phones.
• 10:46
  Dustin Lambert: Yeah, stop using cell phones.
• 10:48
  Philip Pape: Using cell phones or being in the sun.
• 10:50
  Philip Pape: Let's let's be like yep, yep, right, going out in the sun.
• 10:53
  Philip Pape: So, dwayne, what are your thoughts on, from just again, the everyday guy nutrition plan, thinking about where you've come over the years, a lot of it with, with coach Lambie's guidance actually, is there something that you continue to enjoy?
• 11:06
  Philip Pape: That's like a little bit of a vice, where it doesn't matter because what you do today in context is significant improvement from where you were before.
• 11:15
  Dwayne Ulrich: Man.
• 11:16
  Dwayne Ulrich: So I don't know if that's a fair question in this context, because my vice is ice cream, so let's stick to soft drinks.
• 11:25
  Philip Pape: Well, what about all the ingredients in ice cream?
• 11:27
  Philip Pape: Well, that's another podcast.
• 11:32
  Dwayne Ulrich: No, but you know, just for me it's like I've tried to like diet drinks and I can drink maybe half of a Coca-Cola or half of a Dr Pepper.
• 11:43
  Dwayne Ulrich: Maybe Just after two or three or four sips of it I'm done.
• 11:46
  Dwayne Ulrich: But I just wanted to add on to something you guys were talking about, especially in the aspartame thing.
• 11:50
  Dwayne Ulrich: I did some research with Coach Lamb and we did a podcast on neotame and a while back we did a whole big old podcast on sweeteners and on the aspartame thing.
• 12:03
  Dwayne Ulrich: So yeah, it's a known carcinogen but I mean, you'd have to, you have to like consume like 80 something for 150 pound person.
• 12:11
  Dwayne Ulrich: You'd have to consume like 80 packets or 17 or 18, you know diet drinks in a day to like even start to be considerate, concerned about it.
• 12:21
  Dwayne Ulrich: So it's, it's like the thing you guys were just saying don't go outside, you know, don't breathe air.
• 12:26
  Dwayne Ulrich: So as much as I would like to say coming into this podcast, as much as I'd like to say that, oh, yeah, yeah, diet drinks are bad for you.
• 12:34
  Dwayne Ulrich: Diet drinks are bad for you.
• 12:35
  Dwayne Ulrich: I think that there's a component of consuming diet drinks that can maybe turn against you.
• 12:41
  Dwayne Ulrich: But man, I just I can't find a, I can't find a solid reason to say no, you know, or?
• 12:48
  Dwayne Ulrich: that it's bad, I can't.
• 12:50
  Philip Pape: Yeah, and we'll.
• 12:51
  Philip Pape: I know what you're alluding to.
• 12:52
  Philip Pape: We'll dive into some of the arguments people make against it.
• 12:55
  Philip Pape: Besides, the artificial sweeteners, we'll definitely go there, but before we get to that, I just want to kind of close out the topic here on, maybe, maybe from Dustin's standpoint as the expert here, having looked at a lot of these and talked about them a lot on his podcast the different sweeteners we have aspartame, we have sucralose, we have stevia, which is not artificial, technically right, and we have neotame, which you guys talked about.
• 13:16
  Philip Pape: What are the differences?
• 13:18
  Philip Pape: What is the history and composition of those that we need to be aware of as we make these decisions?
• 13:24
  Dustin Lambert: that we need to be aware of as we make these decisions.
• 13:26
  Dustin Lambert: In the grand scheme of things, I don't think we need to be aware of composition and how they're made and stuff.
• 13:32
  Dustin Lambert: Yeah, so we have different sweeteners.
• 13:33
  Dustin Lambert: We have some that are natural.
• 13:33
  Dustin Lambert: We have some that are synthetic Aspartame I think I probably could make a good case that aspartame is about as unnatural as cheese is because, quite frankly, it's just two amino acids that are bonded together through a process of fermentation.
• 13:50
  Dustin Lambert: Now it, like it, looks really scary when you look at pictures of the vats and everything and how fermentation is done.
• 13:56
  Dustin Lambert: However, when you look at how butter is made today and how cheese is made today, uh, you know it don't get me started on prosciutto, man, yeah so you know, like, yeah, so the history of most of these things.
• 14:15
  Dustin Lambert: As far as, like, maybe stevia and some other stuff, you can go down to the hardware store, like closer home depot or something, and buy a stevia plant right and you you can touch, touch the leaves or taste leaves and they're sweet.
• 14:25
  Dustin Lambert: So the process of getting sweeteners from plant sources and stuff is just kind of like the same as tea.
• 14:31
  Dustin Lambert: You kind of boil them in water, boil the leaves or whatever in water, and then through a process of distillation you remove the water from that and you're left with the sweetener Synthetic sweeteners.
• 14:43
  Dustin Lambert: On the other hand, some of them are made from natural chemicals and some are from man-made natural chemicals.
• 14:51
  Dustin Lambert: Some of the processes can be scary to think about.
• 14:56
  Dustin Lambert: In the grand scheme of things, knowing what they're made of or how they're made, I don't think is important, but knowing the upper limits, as Duane alluded to.
• 15:05
  Dustin Lambert: So we have ADIs on these things.
• 15:07
  Dustin Lambert: That's the advisable daily intake and that is set really conservatively low from what is known as the no observable adverse effect level.
• 15:19
  Dustin Lambert: It's usually 100 times lower than that and that usually comes from rodent studies where we give rodents tons and tons and tons of this stuff until we start to see that bad things happen to them, right, and so we say okay, at this amount, which is usually like a milligram per kilogram amount.
• 15:38
  Dustin Lambert: Per kilogram amount.
• 15:39
  Dustin Lambert: They'll usually bring that down a hundred fold to give us our adi.
• 15:45
  Dustin Lambert: So it it could be the case for some of them, um, like sucralose and saccharin, those the adis on those are are a little bit lower.
• 15:56
  Dustin Lambert: So it might be like five diet sodas a day versus something like aspartame, which is like 17, where you're reaching the ADI.
• 16:07
  Dustin Lambert: So you do run the possibility of reaching that upper limit where you may start to see some bad things happen.
• 16:10
  Dustin Lambert: But I think that's the thing to be concerned with what contains?
• 16:14
  Philip Pape: sucralose.
• 16:16
  Dustin Lambert: Just tell it so the listener is aware just just remind, just tell it so the listeners aware.
• 16:25
  Dwayne Ulrich: Um yeah, let me see so sucralose is known as splenda, so anything that has splenda in it.
• 16:27
  Philip Pape: Yeah, yeah, splenda, splenda yeah, yeah, and I believe most, most like typical diet.
• 16:30
  Dustin Lambert: Sodas have aspartame, but they also have combinations yeah, ace k would be the other one, or acyl sulfane potassium aculfame potassium.
• 16:39
  Philip Pape: Is that in the same boat as Splenda or is that more like aspartame in terms of the toxicity level?
• 16:44
  Dustin Lambert: Well, toxicity, yeah, so it's more like aspartame.
• 16:47
  Dustin Lambert: It is really a natural thing.
• 16:50
  Dustin Lambert: So an interesting little tidbit about Ace K is Ace K can actually be used to detect how much urine is in pools, because we don't metabolize it.
• 17:00
  Dustin Lambert: So every bit of it you excrete, like 99.99999% of the acyl sulfate, and so they've actually done some studies, and an Olympic-sized swimming pool on average contains about 70 gallons of urine.
• 17:18
  Stephanie: So okay, All right.
• 17:21
  Philip Pape: Hey, I'm glad you brought the Olympics into this.
• 17:22
  Philip Pape: The transcript will have SEO, but that point about how much is absorbed metabolized is important as well.
• 17:32
  Philip Pape: You guys did that episode on neotame.
• 17:33
  Philip Pape: Thank you for doing that, because that's been coming up more often and that's one of the points you made was the level of absorption is so tiny, you have to account for that yeah.
• 17:44
  Philip Pape: So these are important.
• 17:44
  Philip Pape: All right, let's move on to Okay.
• 17:46
  Philip Pape: So I think we've established that there's a certain level that is far beyond what a typical human is going to consume, and even if it is five or six cans a day, maybe that's in excess for any particular thing.
• 17:57
  Philip Pape: Anyway, for someone.
• 17:59
  Philip Pape: I'm guessing right.
• 17:59
  Philip Pape: What about the evidence on?
• 18:01
  Philip Pape: Let's go to the next thing body weight, weight management, because we hear two sides of the equation.
• 18:07
  Philip Pape: We hear, on one hand, these are zero calorie beverages, so of course you're not consuming any calories, so that's a benefit for for intake.
• 18:15
  Philip Pape: And you know, you feel something, you put something in your stomach, whether it's water, diet, soda doesn't have calories.
• 18:20
  Philip Pape: Maybe that helps with weight management.
• 18:21
  Philip Pape: On the other hand, all these claims about insulin being spiked and your sweet tooth is triggered, so now you're going to seek out other foods.
• 18:31
  Philip Pape: Lay it out.
• 18:32
  Philip Pape: What does the evidence say on all of this?
• 18:34
  Philip Pape: And maybe we can break it down and go one by one, starting with just the weight management.
• 18:39
  Dustin Lambert: Yeah, so on the weight management aspect of it, which kind of ties into whether or not it causes you to consume more sweets or more food in general, those are kind of tied together.
• 18:52
  Dustin Lambert: So what we're looking at is a discrepancy between experimental trials so people wouldn't know this as RCTs or randomized control trials, something like that and then what we see in epidemiology In randomized control trials, when we take people in and we put them in an experiment and we say, okay, we're going to randomize you guys, this group is going to get water, this group is going to get diet soda and we see what happens.
• 19:18
  Dustin Lambert: People lose weight and we have trials as long as a year, going on a year long here.
• 19:25
  Dustin Lambert: Let me see if I can find one.
• 19:27
  Dustin Lambert: Yeah, so we have one titled non-nutritive sweetened beverages versus water after a 52-week weight management program, a randomized control trial.
• 19:40
  Dustin Lambert: This is by Joanne Harold and colleagues trial.
• 19:42
  Dustin Lambert: This is by Joanne Harold and colleagues, released in the Journal of Obesity in 2024.
• 19:44
  Dustin Lambert: So very recent stuff, yeah.
• 19:45
  Dustin Lambert: So when we put people through these trials where we're actually randomizing them to one group or the other and we're going to replace sugar-sweetened beverages with either an artificially sweetened beverage or some other beverage normally it's water, we see weight loss.
• 19:58
  Dustin Lambert: We also see better adherence to weight management, weight loss management right.
• 20:04
  Dustin Lambert: So people tend to lose more weight in the artificially sweetened beverage trial versus water, and they also are able to maintain more weight loss than the water arm.
• 20:17
  Dustin Lambert: When we look into epidemiology, what we see is that higher rates of adiposity, obesity, overweight, bmi all that stuff tends to correlate with higher intakes of artificially sweetened beverages, diet sodas We'll just use diet sodas to make everything easier.
• 20:34
  Dustin Lambert: And so what a lot of the fear mongers, as you alluded to in the beginning.
• 20:40
  Dustin Lambert: What a lot of them do is they will take the correlation, the association from the epidemiology and just kind of run with it.
• 20:47
  Dustin Lambert: I say that's the results.
• 20:48
  Dustin Lambert: Here it is, but we have a discrepancy between the two, and it doesn't exist in every prospective cohort.
• 20:56
  Dustin Lambert: So we're talking about prospective cohorts here, but a lot of them do.
• 20:59
  Dustin Lambert: So we have to explain why, we have to account for why this discrepancy exists, and so the reason for that is that in these prospective cohorts, a lot of times what we're missing is a temporal component.
• 21:11
  Dustin Lambert: So we want to know if X came before Y or if Y became before X.
• 21:18
  Dustin Lambert: So did people start drinking diet soda before they became overweight and obese?
• 21:22
  Dustin Lambert: Or does being overweight and obese necessarily lead to people consuming more artificially sweetened beverages or diet sodas in an attempt to gain weight loss or to maintain some amount of weight loss?
• 21:36
  Dustin Lambert: There are other confounding factors.
• 21:39
  Dustin Lambert: I hate to use the word confounding, I'd rather use the word mediating or moderating.
• 21:43
  Dustin Lambert: There's other things like family history of obesity, all this stuff, and when we look at the cohorts and we take the ones that we actually have data for that we can actually make those adjustments right.
• 21:55
  Dustin Lambert: So reverse causality is what we're looking at.
• 21:57
  Dustin Lambert: Did diet soda cause obesity or is obesity causing the consumption of diet soda?
• 22:02
  Dustin Lambert: That would be reverse causality, and we adjust for all of these things.
• 22:05
  Dustin Lambert: What we find then, is that that association that we're looking at actually goes away.
• 22:12
  Dustin Lambert: Good meta-analysis here is by Lee and colleagues the relation of change or substitution of low and no-calorie student beverages with cardiometabolic outcomes, a systematic review and meta-analysis of prospective cohorts and what they did is they took some cohorts that had the data that they needed to make these adjustments and they adjusted for reverse causality and some of these other things that might confound those results, and what they found is that actually, sugar, sweet or diet sodas are associated with weight loss small amount and weight maintenance, not the other way around.
• 22:54
  Philip Pape: I love how you split those up too, because, on one hand, we're actually looking at causality, like you said, with the randomized controlled trials, and then, on the other hand, it's just a bunch of data that had been observed and now we have to link it together properly and have it in the right time-based direction.
• 23:08
  Philip Pape: Dwayne, what do you, what do you think about all this?
• 23:10
  Philip Pape: I've heard how you talk with Coach Lambie on your podcast.
• 23:14
  Philip Pape: It's it's so confusing, it's so overwhelming.
• 23:17
  Philip Pape: The average person is not going to be reading a bunch of papers, let alone reading one paper.
• 23:22
  Philip Pape: And they're trusting us, they're trusting people.
• 23:24
  Philip Pape: What are your thoughts on that, this or in general?
• 23:29
  Dwayne Ulrich: Well, just a couple of things.
• 23:31
  Dwayne Ulrich: One of the things that I looked at real quick.
• 23:32
  Dwayne Ulrich: I just want to put this out there before I forget about it but I looked at a study that came out of Harvard and so like, for some of the sweeteners and some of the soft drinks, particularly aspartame, had a tendency in animal trials to affect the animal's brain in such a way that it didn't know when to stop eating.
• 23:52
  Dwayne Ulrich: Now that sounds like I'm fighting for the other side.
• 23:56
  Dwayne Ulrich: I believe that what the data shows us, as Coach Lambie showed it, is that it can help you with the weight loss or at least maintain, and that seems to be the overwhelming deal there.
• 24:09
  Dwayne Ulrich: But anecdotally, I see people that in my own life just people that I know that they drink a lot of artificially sweetened soft drinks.
• 24:20
  Dwayne Ulrich: For them they maintain.
• 24:22
  Dwayne Ulrich: Most of the time they maintain.
• 24:24
  Dwayne Ulrich: I know people that are already obese that drink artificial soft drinks.
• 24:28
  Dwayne Ulrich: Do they get bigger?
• 24:29
  Dwayne Ulrich: Not over my experience, not for as long as I've known some of these people.
• 24:38
  Dwayne Ulrich: But I do believe there's a responsibility on the individual.
• 24:41
  Dwayne Ulrich: Going back to nutrition, because if you just drink that and think that's going to help you lose weight, that may not be really the case for you.
• 24:49
  Dwayne Ulrich: But by the same token, if you're tanking on soft drinks that are artificially sweetened, there's a possibility for you to eat more.
• 24:56
  Dwayne Ulrich: I see that as a thing, just anecdotally from what I know.
• 25:01
  Dwayne Ulrich: And then when I go look at things like the Harvard study, I'm like maybe there is some causality there.
• 25:08
  Dwayne Ulrich: It kind of helps you forget when you need to stop eating.
• 25:11
  Dwayne Ulrich: I do see that.
• 25:12
  Dwayne Ulrich: So what is it?
• 25:14
  Dwayne Ulrich: I can't find any reason to tell somebody you shouldn't drink that because you're just going to gain weight.
• 25:20
  Dwayne Ulrich: That doesn't make sense.
• 25:22
  Dwayne Ulrich: It's just not a sensical conversation or an argument.
• 25:26
  Dwayne Ulrich: And when you look at the data like Coach Lambie just went through, yeah, it doesn't really bear out.
• 25:31
  Dwayne Ulrich: I mean, yeah, there's a possibility that maybe it affects your brain and you just don't know when to stop eating.
• 25:36
  Dwayne Ulrich: I think that's an exception more than it is a rule.
• 25:41
  Philip Pape: Does that make sense?
• 25:42
  Philip Pape: Yeah, and it makes total sense.
• 25:44
  Philip Pape: And you're hitting on the nuance here.
• 25:45
  Philip Pape: There's so much nuance.
• 25:46
  Philip Pape: What comes to mind for me is if I had a client who we're going to do fat loss, I'm not going to prescribe them Diet Coke, but if they were drinking regular Coke and said I really crave these things, I can't help, I drink them all the time, we'd have the discussion Hmm, have you tried Diet Coke?
• 26:05
  Philip Pape: Like, why don't we try that?
• 26:07
  Philip Pape: Like let's experiment and see, right.
• 26:10
  Philip Pape: And that's one thing that comes to mind.
• 26:12
  Philip Pape: Another is I think we're trying to add the nuance so that people don't think like Diet Coke absolutely causes weight gain, because we see that that's not the case either.
• 26:21
  Dwayne Ulrich: Correct.
• 26:22
  Philip Pape: And things are personalized.
• 26:23
  Philip Pape: And you're right, who knows?
• 26:27
  Philip Pape: With the context of these individuals?
• 26:28
  Philip Pape: I grew up in households that there was a lot of Diet Coke consumption and you're right, I see it in obese populations.
• 26:31
  Philip Pape: There's a lot of that and, like Dustin said, there's confounding, mitigating factors going on and maybe they just incorporated it at some point, hoping to lose weight, but nothing else changed.
• 26:41
  Philip Pape: And now you're like, okay, what are we really looking at here?
• 26:44
  Philip Pape: So the data is important, but also the individual.
• 26:46
  Philip Pape: You know history with this.
• 26:49
  Dwayne Ulrich: Right.
• 26:50
  Philip Pape: Do you think, dustin, we cover the first piece right of?
• 26:53
  Philip Pape: It probably doesn't cause weight gain and it probably is a helpful tool for a lot of people, especially when substituting something with calories.
• 27:00
  Philip Pape: Just okay, good.
• 27:03
  Stephanie: We're in agreement, do you?
• 27:03
  Dustin Lambert: want me to elaborate on that.
• 27:05
  Dustin Lambert: No, no, no.
• 27:05
  Philip Pape: That was like.
• 27:06
  Philip Pape: I'm like blabbering, I'm rambling on here.
• 27:09
  Stephanie: The most value that I got from this was the fact that I had someone that I could talk to about anything and that there was going to be no judgment.
• 27:18
  Stephanie: It was just well, here are your goals, here's the best way that you're going to achieve it, and then let's work together to help you feel inspired and motivated to do that and there's a lot of people out there trying to be coaches and not all of them have done the work and also just be a genuine person that is positive and coming from the heart in terms of wanting to help, and Philip really embodied all of those qualities.
• 27:45
  Stephanie: I would recommend him to just about anyone that's looking to achieve goals in that realm of their nutrition and building new habits.
• 27:54
  Philip Pape: Let's go to the next thing, which is enjoyment.
• 27:56
  Philip Pape: So what about the fact that it tastes sweet drink enjoyment?
• 27:59
  Philip Pape: It has carbonation, all of that stuff.
• 28:02
  Philip Pape: Where does that come in?
• 28:03
  Dustin Lambert: Yeah, so it does taste sweet.
• 28:06
  Dustin Lambert: So all of the sweeteners are some multiple thousands of times sweeter than sugar, which allows us to use a lot less of them.
• 28:12
  Dustin Lambert: As Dwayne alluded to, he doesn't really like the taste of it.
• 28:16
  Dustin Lambert: So I'm with you.
• 28:19
  Dustin Lambert: My clients are a little bit different than yours, where I'm dealing with people who are knocking on the doorstep of diabetes and in those cases I am often am prescribing it because many people are drinking, you know, six to 10 sugar sweetened sodas a day, and it's kind like well, hey, listen, like I get it.
• 28:41
  Dustin Lambert: There's more to this than just the food, right, there's a genetic aspect to it.
• 28:45
  Dustin Lambert: There's also a psychological aspect to all of this stuff and it's like I, I, I understand it.
• 28:50
  Dustin Lambert: Uh, so let's start maneuvering our way into, you know, instead of six to eight regular sodas a day to six to eight diet sodas a day, and then again the time.
• 29:01
  Dustin Lambert: You know, I tell everybody like it doesn't matter where we get in the next six months, what's important is where we get in the next six years.
• 29:06
  Dustin Lambert: So even if we're consuming a 12 pack of diet soda a day right now, right, as long as there's an exit strategy to get to that point, we need to be there.
• 29:17
  Dustin Lambert: It does, you know, handle the sweet tooth.
• 29:19
  Dustin Lambert: When I go through fat loss phases and I'm craving sweet things myself, a diet soda often does alleviate whatever that craving is.
• 29:28
  Dustin Lambert: You know, the carbonation in it also helps.
• 29:31
  Dustin Lambert: I think people feel full and that can help during weight loss periods or fat loss phases.
• 29:36
  Dustin Lambert: You know, you're not always going to outrun the ghrelin monster forever.
• 29:41
  Dustin Lambert: It's going to catch up with you at some point.
• 29:42
  Dustin Lambert: So again, nuance to all of this stuff.
• 29:45
  Dustin Lambert: But yeah, it can cure.
• 29:47
  Dustin Lambert: Not cure, but it can help alleviate sweet tooth cravings.
• 29:52
  Dustin Lambert: It can help with that psychological aspect of you.
• 29:57
  Dustin Lambert: Know, I've been drinking soda for a while now and I, I love them.
• 30:01
  Dustin Lambert: I don't want to give them up, uh.
• 30:02
  Dustin Lambert: So okay, well, let's just let's swap over to this that reduces the amount of sugar intake that that my clients are seeing, which brings their fasting glucose down, their hba1c down, all that stuff.
• 30:13
  Dustin Lambert: So yeah, for the everyday person, um, you know, if you're, if you're looking to maybe reduce intake of certain foods that are sweet or whatever the case may be, diet, soda certainly can help in that aspect.
• 30:29
  Philip Pape: Yeah, I agree.
• 30:29
  Philip Pape: I'm actually in fat loss again now and I typically will have a can of diet soda almost once every day during fat loss, just in the afternoon, like I'm doing right now, because it it fits in that window, it hydrates me and it tastes good.
• 30:43
  Philip Pape: I mean, I don't see anything wrong with it and that's kind of what we're here to to give people that peace of mind of it's okay, it's okay, it's like.
• 30:51
  Philip Pape: You know what do you think, duane?
• 30:53
  Dwayne Ulrich: yeah, oh I, I completely agree.
• 30:55
  Dwayne Ulrich: It's like um, yeah, I for one thing.
• 30:58
  Dwayne Ulrich: It's like the long term is is thinking it in short term.
• 31:01
  Dwayne Ulrich: You have to think in a longer term.
• 31:03
  Dwayne Ulrich: We all like to change things right away.
• 31:05
  Dwayne Ulrich: We're in a hurry, I've got to have it now.
• 31:06
  Dwayne Ulrich: I've got to change right now.
• 31:07
  Dwayne Ulrich: I've got to lose all this weight right now.
• 31:08
  Dwayne Ulrich: I've got to stop being a diabetic today.
• 31:10
  Dwayne Ulrich: It's a process.
• 31:12
  Dwayne Ulrich: It's a process compared to sugar-sweetened soft drinks, what they call SSB, sugar-sweetened beverages.
• 31:22
  Dwayne Ulrich: Man, the amount of sugar in a regular soda water, man, I'm just kind of sorry I started reading that, but it's staggering.
• 31:36
  Philip Pape: So, yeah, I think the artificially sweetened soft drinks, it's a definite plus, it's a definite plus, and I'll tell you a few times you mentioned the amount of sugar A couple times.
• 31:44
  Philip Pape: I might have gone and asked for a fountain soda at a place and they gave me the sweetened version of it instead of the diet, and usually I can tell that they're really good.
• 31:54
  Philip Pape: With the Coke Zeros and everything, it almost tastes the same.
• 31:56
  Philip Pape: So I'm drinking it and I'm getting that kind of sweet smacking kind of taste, but I just finish it thinking in my head like no, no, they gave me the diet.
• 32:04
  Philip Pape: And then I come to find they didn't and I'm like, okay, that's 300 calories right there, like I just make sure to track it sometimes you can almost feel it feels like fur on your teeth.
• 32:13
  Dwayne Ulrich: What was that?
• 32:15
  Philip Pape: yeah, of course like you said, some people don't like the artificial sweetener and you don't have to drink this stuff.
• 32:19
  Philip Pape: We're not saying it and there could be haters and trolls on this.
• 32:22
  Philip Pape: In fact, I welcome you guys who are like how dare you tell us to drink any diet soda, eat any seed oils, blah, blah, blah.
• 32:28
  Philip Pape: We love it.
• 32:29
  Philip Pape: Bring it on.
• 32:29
  Philip Pape: So, dustin, did we address the part about whether it causes you to eat more?
• 32:35
  Philip Pape: I mean, we address that studies show it doesn't cause weight gain, but what about this idea that it both spikes your blood sugar but and or causes you to eat more?
• 32:44
  Philip Pape: Yeah, okay, so there are two different things.
• 32:47
  Philip Pape: Let's start with the eat more thing.
• 32:49
  Dustin Lambert: Yeah, the eat more thing.
• 32:50
  Dustin Lambert: Okay, um, so, yeah.
• 32:52
  Dustin Lambert: So if we're looking at the epidemiology and we would see that, um, higher rates of of overweight and obesity correlate with higher consumption of diet sodas, and then we also might just observe people in our own lives who have been overweight their whole life and they always drink diet soda and we're like, well, that's not helping out at all.
• 33:11
  Dustin Lambert: So I can see where that idea comes from, comes from.
• 33:20
  Dustin Lambert: And then, as Duane alluded to, we certainly do have rodent studies where they give them artificial sweeteners and it leads to an increase in spontaneous consumption of calories, hitting on the rodent stuff.
• 33:28
  Dustin Lambert: And this goes into gut microbiome research and cancer research as well.
• 33:33
  Dustin Lambert: So there have been several papers.
• 33:35
  Dustin Lambert: I brought up a couple of them in our artificial food coloring episodes and then there was one that came out very, very recently in dealing with cancer.
• 33:47
  Dustin Lambert: I believe I don't have that one pulled up, but Dr Allo, dr Muhammad Allo, he brought that up on Twitter what we see from rodent research regarding translation to human outcomes.
• 34:00
  Dustin Lambert: So if we just look at the amount of rodent research where we might be trying to develop a drug or something to treat human disease, the amount of drugs that we'd start testing in rodents and even psychological outcomes and even cancer outcomes.
• 34:18
  Dustin Lambert: That actually makes it to first phase clinical human trials and then even less once we get to FDA.
• 34:26
  Dustin Lambert: Approval of things translates to about 5%.
• 34:29
  Dustin Lambert: So 95% of the rodent research that's out there does not translate to human outcomes, okay, okay.
• 34:37
  Dustin Lambert: So if we have a rodent study that shows we give rodents this sweetener and it spontaneously increases their calorie consumption, we might look at a few things how much of it are they giving?
• 34:51
  Dustin Lambert: You know, what is the length of exposure that they're allowed to have, all these things.
• 34:56
  Dustin Lambert: But then the other aspect is that, well, it probably doesn't translate very well to human outcomes because we have human randomized control trials where we give people diet soda and they don't eat more, they eat less.
• 35:10
  Dustin Lambert: So just substituting and a lot of these trials that we're talking about.
• 35:14
  Dustin Lambert: We're talking about a substitution of two beverages a day, so two cans.
• 35:23
  Dustin Lambert: Substitution of two beverages a day, so two cans.
• 35:24
  Dustin Lambert: 12 ounce cans of soda per day is the is, uh, what most of these trials shoot for with a minimum of three sodas per week.
• 35:28
  Dustin Lambert: So even at a minimum of three sodas per week, we are seeing spontaneous weight loss.
• 35:34
  Dustin Lambert: So whatever is happening there as far as the impact that these might have on brain regulation or gut regulation is leading people to eat less.
• 35:46
  Dustin Lambert: It's not the other way around, right, because when we actually test it, what happens when we give people diet soda and we're actually measuring these outcomes?
• 35:53
  Dustin Lambert: People lose weight.
• 35:54
  Dustin Lambert: They don't gain weight.
• 35:56
  Philip Pape: So do you think it simply comes down to energy balance at the end of the day here and that there are no other aspects of the in our guts or gut?
• 36:05
  Philip Pape: So also all that?
• 36:23
  Dustin Lambert: stuff.
• 36:23
  Dustin Lambert: And then we also know that gut microbiota or um, what's the term?
• 36:28
  Dustin Lambert: I'm looking here for laura the um, no, the whole thing.
• 36:31
  Dustin Lambert: So I saw our entire digestive tract right.
• 36:34
  Dustin Lambert: So there's all stuff going on and we have a gut brain and we have drugs out now that stimulate hormones that are produced in response to things that happen in our gut and that signals our brain.
• 36:47
  Dustin Lambert: So I certainly think that there's something happening there.
• 36:51
  Dustin Lambert: We do know that there are changes that happen to certain microbiota or flora within our gut when we consume.
• 36:58
  Dustin Lambert: A lot of people take that as being negative.
• 37:00
  Dustin Lambert: However, when we look at the outcomes, I would have to say that those changes have to be a positive effect, because we're seeing the outcomes that we want to see.
• 37:11
  Dustin Lambert: We're seeing people lose weight, we're seeing lower fasting glucose numbers.
• 37:15
  Dustin Lambert: Long-term HbA1c comes down a little bit, but a lot of those trials just aren't long enough to notice a change there or they're not looking at it.
• 37:25
  Dustin Lambert: Yeah, so so is it?
• 37:26
  Dustin Lambert: Does it just come down to calories, like is it just that I'm replacing 150 calories with zero calories?
• 37:33
  Dustin Lambert: I don't think so, uh, because the amount of weight loss that we're seeing would lead us to believe a little bit more.
• 37:39
  Dustin Lambert: I think that whatever's happening to the changes in the gut and the changes whatever may be happening in response to that in the brain is spontaneously causing people to eat just a little bit less.
• 37:50
  Dustin Lambert: It's not huge, all right it's.
• 37:52
  Dustin Lambert: This isn't magical and it's not going to get.
• 37:55
  Dustin Lambert: It's not the staff of Moses here.
• 37:56
  Dustin Lambert: So yeah, but I think that there is something else to it.
• 38:00
  Philip Pape: That's an interesting one, cause we've now we're we're almost taking the benefit even that one step further.
• 38:04
  Philip Pape: The gut health thing is talked about more often now as as a negative and, like you said, maybe there's something else going on.
• 38:10
  Philip Pape: If we use the transitive property right, like if you do this and then on this side, it results in weight loss and we know gut health and cognitive function, whatever also affects that weight loss, beyond what energy balance would explain.
• 38:23
  Philip Pape: Therefore, the diet soda is doing something.
• 38:25
  Philip Pape: I mean I, I get that logic.
• 38:27
  Philip Pape: Yeah, we have the comparison to water.
• 38:29
  Dustin Lambert: So we have zero calorie versus zero calorie and in the diet soda arms, they lose more weight.
• 38:35
  Dustin Lambert: So there has to be something that's happening there that's causing just a little bit more of a calorie deficit, which we can only assume is people are eating less.
• 38:48
  Philip Pape: Could it be the satiety effects of it?
• 38:50
  Philip Pape: Sure, have they compared carbonated pure water as?
• 38:54
  Dustin Lambert: well to soda, yep, yep.
• 38:56
  Dustin Lambert: So when we compare the diet soda to the water arms, people are allowed to have carbonated beverages and a lot of these trials are free living trials.
• 39:05
  Dustin Lambert: It's not a metabolic ward study.
• 39:07
  Dustin Lambert: A lot of these are free living right, so people are just at home doing stuff.
• 39:11
  Dustin Lambert: So what happens when we give people diet soda and they're at home and they're not advised to try to lose weight and we're looking at a carbonated, artificially sweetened beverage?
• 39:23
  Dustin Lambert: And a lot of these are not just diet soda, but it's also the waters that you can get, the flavored and sweetened waters that are zero calorie, that are carbonated.
• 39:31
  Dustin Lambert: But in the water arms they also are allowed to have carbonated water.
• 39:35
  Dustin Lambert: So it's not just an effect of well, maybe this one has carbonation, this one's plain water.
• 39:39
  Dustin Lambert: There's something more there.
• 39:42
  Philip Pape: And could it be just psychological hunger?
• 39:44
  Philip Pape: Because I feel like even in my own personal experience, it takes away the craving.
• 39:50
  Philip Pape: It kind of rubs that itch and therefore you don't eat.
• 39:53
  Philip Pape: And it's as simple as that.
• 39:54
  Philip Pape: What do you think it could be?
• 39:55
  Philip Pape: Yeah, yeah, it's fascinating.
• 39:57
  Philip Pape: Well, whatever it is for an individual, they can they can look at the data and see what happens.
• 40:00
  Dwayne Ulrich: And so I agree, I agree with that.
• 40:03
  Dwayne Ulrich: I read some studies about, uh, the carbonated water also kind of having the same effect.
• 40:08
  Dwayne Ulrich: I agree there's something more about the diet soda as opposed to just carbonated water.
• 40:14
  Dwayne Ulrich: But carbonated water has a more, I think, a more intense effect than just plain water itself.
• 40:20
  Dwayne Ulrich: And I want to go back to the rodent thing I said earlier because I don't want people to misunderstand about, you know, certain sweeteners causing you know animal trials to where they didn't know when to stop eating.
• 40:31
  Dwayne Ulrich: The thing Coach Lambie said about when we're using rodent studies, a lot of times what they're pushing for is they're just pushing for the maximum amount.
• 40:42
  Dwayne Ulrich: When do we get an adverse effect?
• 40:45
  Dwayne Ulrich: So I think we were doing a study on neotame on our podcast.
• 40:47
  Dwayne Ulrich: You know when do we get an adverse effect?
• 40:49
  Dwayne Ulrich: So I think we were doing a study on neotame on our podcast, and so they gave the animal subject.
• 40:53
  Dwayne Ulrich: Like what, coach?
• 40:54
  Dwayne Ulrich: Was it 7,000 times what the normal would be?
• 40:58
  Dustin Lambert: That one was just a petri dish.
• 41:00
  Dwayne Ulrich: Oh well, petri dish.
• 41:01
  Dustin Lambert: Oh no, no, I just referenced stuff in the past that we looked at.
• 41:07
  Dwayne Ulrich: Yeah, but it's just massive.
• 41:07
  Dwayne Ulrich: But they give massive amounts to.
• 41:09
  Dwayne Ulrich: I mean, just look at the.
• 41:10
  Dwayne Ulrich: We talked earlier about aspartame.
• 41:12
  Dwayne Ulrich: Well, good lands, you've got to drink 17, 18 sodas before there's any adverse effects.
• 41:19
  Dwayne Ulrich: I don't want people to be misled.
• 41:22
  Dustin Lambert: Not even that.
• 41:22
  Dustin Lambert: That's just to reach the ADI.
• 41:24
  Dwayne Ulrich: Yeah and I don't want people to be misled by that that that's, oh my gosh, something bad's going to happen.
• 41:28
  Dwayne Ulrich: So there's obviously something happening in the gut biome that you know.
• 41:33
  Dwayne Ulrich: Something's happening down there.
• 41:35
  Philip Pape: I don't really know what it is, but I think it's effective the longevity guys pushing low protein based on rats and I just I drew the line there.
• 41:49
  Philip Pape: I'm like no, no, we're not doing that.
• 41:52
  Philip Pape: Okay, let's talk about insulin response.
• 41:56
  Philip Pape: Okay, I think that's the other one here right, cause you do talk about prescribing this for diabetics as a alternative to sweeters.
• 42:03
  Philip Pape: But let's take people who maybe weren't drinking diet soda at all.
• 42:06
  Philip Pape: Maybe in randomized controlled trials they've looked at this.
• 42:09
  Philip Pape: You add it in.
• 42:10
  Philip Pape: Does it affect your blood sugar?
• 42:14
  Dustin Lambert: Yes, it affects blood sugar.
• 42:15
  Dustin Lambert: So we can speak to the fear mongers because I think this is another criticism that people have about it is that, well, this thing is sweet, right, and when you taste it, your brain thinks it's receiving sugar, and that stimulates the production of insulin and that leads to insulin resistance.
• 42:37
  Dustin Lambert: Okay, so, not even just going into trials, but if we just logic this argument out here, okay, so let's just say, for the sake of argument, that that's happening right.
• 42:50
  Dustin Lambert: As soon as it hits your taste bud, your brain goes ah, there's sugar release, insulin.
• 42:54
  Dustin Lambert: Well, number one.
• 42:55
  Dustin Lambert: That's not how insulin is released.
• 42:57
  Dustin Lambert: Again, let's just say that it is all right.
• 43:01
  Dustin Lambert: So let's say that it's a big bolus of insulin, right.
• 43:04
  Dustin Lambert: So your brain thinks that you're getting whatever seven teaspoons of sugar, and so it signals to your pancreas to release the amount of insulin to dispose of seven teaspoons of sugar.
• 43:16
  Dustin Lambert: If I woke up first thing in the morning without eating anything and I drank this diet soda here and my pancreas released enough insulin to dispose of the amount of sugar that would be in a sugar-sweetened soda, I would go into hypoglycemic shock, right, it would induce vomiting, it would induce nausea, I would probably lose my vision and I would most likely become unconscious.
• 43:41
  Dustin Lambert: Now that's not happening because I haven't eaten anything today and I, this monster, and I am also drinking this Diet Coke, so that's not happening.
• 43:52
  Dustin Lambert: Okay, so it's not a large bolus of insulin.
• 43:54
  Dustin Lambert: Maybe it's a small one, right?
• 43:56
  Dustin Lambert: Maybe it's a little bit.
• 43:57
  Dustin Lambert: Okay, fine, let's say that that's happening.
• 44:01
  Dustin Lambert: If you are of the position which most of them are, that high blood sugar is bad and you need to reduce that, you should be having as little amount of stored glucose in your liver and your muscles and everything as glycogen as possible.
• 44:18
  Dustin Lambert: What would small amounts of insulin do?
• 44:22
  Dustin Lambert: If I just had this diet soda and I didn't eat anything and I had high blood sugar and I had fatty liver maybe and fatty liver can come from excess glycogen within the liver Well, these small amounts of liver would reduce my homeostatic blood sugar, my blood glucose level, fasting glucose levels, just a little bit, and that reduction would signal glucagon to tell my liver that blood sugar has come down.
• 44:50
  Dustin Lambert: Please release some glucose into the bloodstream to bring us back to homeostasis.
• 44:55
  Dustin Lambert: If I did that several times a day over the course of weeks and months, what I would end up with is a liver with lower glycogen stores and also lower glycogen stores in my muscle and also a lower fasting glucose level.
• 45:10
  Dustin Lambert: So if that were happening, I'm not really sure how you could make the case that that's a bad thing, right?
• 45:17
  Dustin Lambert: So that's one.
• 45:19
  Dustin Lambert: Number two it doesn't stimulate insulin.
• 45:21
  Dustin Lambert: Okay, so the way insulin is stimulated is that your pancreas has a large artery runs right through it and it pulls blood out of that artery to sense how much glucose is floating around in your bloodstream and that's how it knows how much insulin right, and also receives some signals from the liver.
• 45:40
  Dustin Lambert: The liver and the pancreas work together to keep blood sugar levels stable.
• 45:45
  Dustin Lambert: That's why type 1 diabetics have such issues.
• 45:47
  Dustin Lambert: Also type 2 diabetics, right, because at some point they start losing control of that thing and you no longer have homeostasis.
• 45:55
  Dustin Lambert: You start dipping into dangerously low levels or dangerously high levels.
• 45:59
  Dustin Lambert: People love social media.
• 46:01
  Dustin Lambert: There are tons and tons of videos of people out there wearing a CGM and will drink a diet soda and show you it does absolutely nothing.
• 46:08
  Dustin Lambert: It does nothing, so they don't stimulate insulin.
• 46:12
  Dustin Lambert: Now let me put the caveat.
• 46:13
  Dustin Lambert: Okay, so I will say as far as like an insulin resistance aspect goes, I have seen some stuff on sucralose that would give me pause in recommending that, right?
• 46:28
  Dustin Lambert: So that's the Splenda.
• 46:29
  Dustin Lambert: So yeah, I have seen some stuff.
• 46:31
  Dustin Lambert: So there is another guy on YouTube and he did a pretty good three or four week look into sucralose and looking at insulin resistance and there's something there that gives me pause.
• 46:42
  Dustin Lambert: I think maybe if you were to have a little bit of that, so one packet of it or something in your tea for lunch, probably not going to be a big deal, but that would be the only one.
• 46:51
  Philip Pape: All right, yeah, just want to put that to bed for people Again.
• 46:54
  Philip Pape: If you just look anecdotally and, like you said, logically follow it through, people aren't getting, you know, insulin shock, as if they just injected themselves on a regular basis Because guess what?
• 47:05
  Philip Pape: A lot of people are drinking them while they're fasting, so you would see this often.
• 47:09
  Philip Pape: So, man, we'll take care of those intermittent fasters right now.
• 47:15
  Dwayne Ulrich: Just feed them a bunch of diet soda.
• 47:16
  Philip Pape: Okay, so that's good.
• 47:17
  Philip Pape: So we're ticking off all the boxes here, I think.
• 47:20
  Philip Pape: And we sort of alluded to how it of course helps with weight management, it helps with diabetes.
• 47:24
  Philip Pape: Is there anything in the realm of cardiovascular disease stroke we wanted to cover?
• 47:28
  Philip Pape: I mean specifically because obviously those risks also come down in concert with these other risks coming down.
• 47:35
  Dustin Lambert: Yeah, those risks come down.
• 47:36
  Dustin Lambert: So if you substitute some sugar-sweetened sodas with artificially sweetened sodas, you're drinking diet sodas now and you managed to lose some weight.
• 47:44
  Dustin Lambert: Obviously you're dealing with fewer carbohydrates coming in.
• 47:47
  Dustin Lambert: That's going to have an effect on blood glucose.
• 47:49
  Dustin Lambert: Let's put all of that aside and look at where we have adjusted for weight loss and other things.
• 47:59
  Dustin Lambert: Do diet sodas have an impact in and of themselves on certain risk factors for cardiovascular disease, diabetes and stuff In terms of diabetes?
• 48:10
  Dustin Lambert: I don't think that in and of itself it has anything that really has to do with lowering your carbohydrate intake and also the weight loss.
• 48:16
  Dustin Lambert: Now there is an effect on blood pressure that's seen independent of weight loss, independent of anything else, and when we compare diet soda to water again, what we end up seeing is a reduction of about 2.5, about 2.6 millimeters of mercury systolic.
• 48:34
  Dustin Lambert: So that's the top number.
• 48:35
  Dustin Lambert: That's independent of weight loss alone.
• 48:38
  Dustin Lambert: We did an episode on coffee not too long ago and we saw kind of a similar effect there.
• 48:45
  Philip Pape: So hold on these.
• 48:46
  Philip Pape: Caffeine containing soda.
• 48:48
  Philip Pape: Caffeine containing soda yeah, okay, not diet, this is not with caffeine free.
• 48:53
  Dustin Lambert: Right, Not caffeine free.
• 48:54
  Dustin Lambert: Yeah, so it would be just low calorie, no calorie.
• 48:58
  Dustin Lambert: Sweetened beverages in general I'm just using the word diet soda to be the simple here right, so they may contain caffeine and they may not.
• 49:07
  Dustin Lambert: But overall, when meta-analyzed, what we see is that artificial sweetened beverages tend to lower blood pressure just a little bit more than water when we substitute sugar sweetened beverages.
• 49:19
  Dustin Lambert: So it's about two and a half millimeters of mercury systolic top number.
• 49:25
  Dustin Lambert: It's estimated by the American Heart Association that a three millimeter of mercury reduction in systolic blood pressure on an individual basis is clinically meaningful.
• 49:36
  Dustin Lambert: So on itself all alone it almost gets you to that clinically meaningful reduction.
• 49:44
  Dustin Lambert: Right, If you manage to lose weight now, you're in a clinically meaningful reduction.
• 49:48
  Dustin Lambert: So that reduces your risk of coronary heart disease and it also reduces your risk of stroke.
• 49:54
  Dustin Lambert: On a national level, on a population level, 5.5 millimeters of mercury, that would lead to a 15% reduction in coronary heart disease and a 27% reduction in stroke.
• 50:16
  Dustin Lambert: So that's at 5.5.
• 50:18
  Dustin Lambert: So if we do some quick math here, we go down to 2.5, 2.6, what we're looking at on a nationwide level would be somewhere around a 6% or 7% reduction in coronary heart disease incident, Not risk incidence of coronary heart disease and somewhere around a 12% reduction in stroke incidence.
• 50:36
  Dustin Lambert: So coronary heart disease, we're talking about stuff like heart attacks and other things like sudden heart failure, pectoral angina, all that stuff.
• 50:46
  Dustin Lambert: There's about 800,000 people who have heart attacks every year and there's about 800,000 people who have strokes every year.
• 50:54
  Dustin Lambert: What that results to if this were to be the case, if we could get a nationwide reduction of 2.5 millimeters of mercury systolic blood pressure, that would be about 40,000 fewer heart attacks every year and about 100,000 fewer strokes.
• 51:09
  Philip Pape: So, dwayne, you're going to start drinking diet soda now, right, not only do we say it's not bad for you, it's good for you, it's good for you.
• 51:16
  Philip Pape: We got some diet root beer in the fridge right now the root beer is caffeine free, so just make sure you pick the time of day you want it.
• 51:24
  Dwayne Ulrich: Oh, I drink my coffee.
• 51:25
  Dwayne Ulrich: I do drink coffee.
• 51:27
  Philip Pape: Yeah, yeah, ah, it's so fascinating.
• 51:28
  Philip Pape: Right With the blood pressure, is there a concurrent reduction in blood lipids like LDL?
• 51:35
  Philip Pape: Do they have data on that, because that's again another factor for CBD.
• 51:39
  Dustin Lambert: Yeah, so there is reduction in blood lipids.
• 51:42
  Dustin Lambert: I think that probably has more to do with the weight loss than anything.
• 51:45
  Philip Pape: Wow, crazy.
• 51:46
  Philip Pape: So yeah, seriously, we are delivering on the promise of this episode so far.
• 51:52
  Philip Pape: I think that there is a case that it can be good in some cases for certain people, in certain contexts.
• 51:57
  Philip Pape: I'm going to keep saying that.
• 51:58
  Philip Pape: Oh, speaking of coffee, you guys drink cryo brew.
• 52:00
  Philip Pape: You ever tried that?
• 52:01
  Philip Pape: It's a brewed coffee.
• 52:03
  Philip Pape: So I mean brewed chocolate.
• 52:06
  Dustin Lambert: It's brewed, chocolate brewed oh, that's my alley here.
• 52:09
  Philip Pape: Yes, yeah, check it out, attention, check it out.
• 52:11
  Philip Pape: So it's got almost no caffeine.
• 52:13
  Philip Pape: So for me it's like having coffee at night.
• 52:15
  Philip Pape: You know, I can have that cup of coffee at night again during fat loss.
• 52:18
  Philip Pape: It's kind of like diet soda it itches, the flavor and the craving and the having something in your mouth, but with the more um, the bitterness and like thickness of coffee, of a coffee.
• 52:28
  Philip Pape: Yeah, I'm a foodie, if you couldn't tell, I could.
• 52:30
  Philip Pape: So, speaking of so, where does caffeine fit into all this?
• 52:34
  Philip Pape: And that's why I alluded to it, because that's a strong factor, I imagine, depending on what you're studying.
• 52:40
  Dustin Lambert: Yeah, so the caffeine?
• 52:42
  Dustin Lambert: So you know caffeine levels vary between diet sodas.
• 52:45
  Dustin Lambert: So what I found between the diet soda stuff and the coffee stuff is that caffeine is a diuretic, so it will cause you to pee more.
• 52:54
  Dustin Lambert: However, diet sodas are 95% water.
• 52:58
  Dustin Lambert: We don't see dehydration happening from consumption of diet soda or coffee.
• 53:07
  Dustin Lambert: That's not happening, and so, despite caffeine being a diuretic, it just may be that you're drinking enough water along with it to counteract that effect.
• 53:15
  Dustin Lambert: Duane, did you look into the sodium excretion?
• 53:19
  Dwayne Ulrich: yeah, it's.
• 53:19
  Dwayne Ulrich: It's kind of.
• 53:20
  Dwayne Ulrich: It's kind of just um, and it's kind of like social media fodder, just like, uh, being dehydrated because you drink too much caffeine or you eat too much coffee.
• 53:29
  Dwayne Ulrich: The same thing with diet drinks.
• 53:32
  Dwayne Ulrich: It's just social media fodder.
• 53:36
  Dwayne Ulrich: It's like, oh my gosh, you're going to deplete your potassium levels because you're going to start offloading all this stuff because it's diuretic.
• 53:42
  Dwayne Ulrich: We saw in our podcast on caffeine that it doesn't hold true to the data.
• 53:49
  Dustin Lambert: It doesn't, so I don't think that that's an issue at all, I think there may be some effect of increased sodium excretion to go along with it.
• 53:57
  Dustin Lambert: So, in terms of the coffee, there was a trial that we looked at where they did measure sodium excretion and it was higher in the coffee group than the water group, is higher in the coffee group than the water group.
• 54:09
  Dustin Lambert: So the fact that we see blood pressure reductions independent of weight loss, from from artificial, artificially suited beverages that may have caffeine, I think there may be a case to be made there too that you're having an increased sodium excretion from that which is going to put the hydration status, but also with the blood pressure thing yeah, that's and that's a positive.
• 54:25
  Dwayne Ulrich: But again, going back to what I was saying is like, as far as other base minerals in your body, you're not going to deplete things like potassium, magnesium and stuff like that.
• 54:34
  Dwayne Ulrich: There is a sodium offload.
• 54:36
  Dwayne Ulrich: That is a boost.
• 54:37
  Dwayne Ulrich: I mean that's a plus.
• 54:39
  Dwayne Ulrich: But I was just saying overall elements in your body.
• 54:42
  Dwayne Ulrich: It's just you're not going to offload a bunch of stuff.
• 54:45
  Dwayne Ulrich: That's going to hurt you.
• 54:46
  Philip Pape: Go eat a banana, go eat a banana.
• 54:48
  Dwayne Ulrich: Absolutely not going to offload a bunch of stuff to hurt you Go eat a banana?
• 54:50
  Philip Pape: Go eat a banana, Absolutely Actually this.
• 54:55
  Philip Pape: Then sodium comes up as a thing too because the soda I'm drinking has 60 milligrams and some diet sodas have quite a bit more 200, 200 something milligrams.
• 54:59
  Philip Pape: And I know, coach Lamba, you're big into not over subscribing to the fact that we're under salted.
• 55:07
  Philip Pape: Right, there's this narrative that we're all under salted and maybe some people have too much salt and it's causing high blood pressure.
• 55:12
  Philip Pape: It's interesting because there is a lot of salt.
• 55:15
  Philip Pape: I guess I don't know Relative.
• 55:17
  Philip Pape: Is it a decent amount of sodium that we should be worried about?
• 55:19
  Philip Pape: It sounds like it reduces your blood pressure, so maybe not.
• 55:23
  Dustin Lambert: Is there a lot of sodium in the diet sodas?
• 55:25
  Dustin Lambert: Yes, yes, yeah.
• 55:29
  Dustin Lambert: So it varies from one to the.
• 55:30
  Dustin Lambert: You know, I think diet coke has like 55 milligrams of sodium, 40 milligrams of sodium, so so it varies.
• 55:34
  Dustin Lambert: Like, am I concerned about somebody having a diet soda with 40 milligrams of sodium three or four times a day?
• 55:40
  Dustin Lambert: Not really, you know.
• 55:42
  Dustin Lambert: So we're looking to stay under 2300 for the day.
• 55:44
  Dustin Lambert: You know, if you have three or four diet cokes, you know we're at 200, like there's plenty left to salt your food.
• 55:52
  Philip Pape: All right, all right.
• 55:52
  Philip Pape: Um, there's one other benefit I thought of, and that is a cavity cavity risk.
• 55:57
  Dwayne Ulrich: Oh yeah.
• 55:58
  Philip Pape: Which.
• 55:59
  Dwayne Ulrich: I took a deep doubt on this.
• 56:01
  Dwayne Ulrich: I just oh, did you.
• 56:02
  Philip Pape: Okay.
• 56:02
  Dwayne Ulrich: Yeah, I found it fascinating.
• 56:03
  Dwayne Ulrich: So I think we just need, first of all, we need to take a look at sugar sweetened beverages first.
• 56:09
  Dwayne Ulrich: It's just like your mama said, that stuff's going to rot your teeth out.
• 56:15
  Dwayne Ulrich: So for a child, there's a term for it.
• 56:17
  Dwayne Ulrich: I just can't remember what it is Primary dentin, I can't remember.
• 56:21
  Dwayne Ulrich: Anyway, for a child, sugar sweetened beverages are just caustic, just tear the child's teeth up.
• 56:31
  Dwayne Ulrich: If they drink a little bit of a soda man, you need to wash those teeth out and brush them.
• 56:34
  Dwayne Ulrich: And then in your teens, your young adulthood, it doesn't have quite an effect.
• 56:39
  Dwayne Ulrich: An older person I'm still talking about sugar-sweetened beverages so for an older person, you don't have the cavity issue but you have an erosion.
• 56:50
  Dwayne Ulrich: It increases erosion in your teeth.
• 56:52
  Dwayne Ulrich: But now going to the artificially sweetened ones, so there's a thing that happens is that I think it's called karyogenic is that when your body, when you drink a sugar sweetened beverage, the sugars break down into an acid and so that's what's tearing up the enamel in your teeth.
• 57:09
  Dwayne Ulrich: So artificially sweetened beverages aren't karyogenic, so your body doesn't take that stuff and generate an acid.
• 57:18
  Dwayne Ulrich: So there's really not much impact on your teeth, even on what's called a primary dentinate I think it is, and middle age, like so early teens to 20-something and even adults.
• 57:33
  Dwayne Ulrich: There's not that much of an impact there.
• 57:34
  Dwayne Ulrich: The only impact that I found in studies that I was looking at was that artificial sweeteners are used a lot on foods or treats, especially that are highly acidic, and so whatever you're going to get is probably going to be coming from a higher acidic type food or treat or sweets or whatever Gosh.
• 57:55
  Dwayne Ulrich: The first thing that comes to my mind is those nasty little like the worms and the.
• 58:00
  Philip Pape: The gummy worms.
• 58:01
  Dwayne Ulrich: Put the sugar on them, sour patch gummy worms, sour patch kids, those, I hate those things.
• 58:08
  Dwayne Ulrich: But so you know, if you find those with artificial sweeteners, you know it's not the sweetener that's tearing you up, it's going to be just the acid from the food.
• 58:16
  Dwayne Ulrich: Sure, sure.
• 58:16
  Dwayne Ulrich: So it's a plus.
• 58:17
  Philip Pape: I mean, all right, hey, we're busting this stuff in right, can you have the sugar sweetened beverages?
• 58:23
  Philip Pape: Pshe, phosphoric acid is an ingredient in soda and that might be a cool episode for you guys to do, because that's another one that has been fear mongered with like they'll show teeth in a vat of phosphoric acid and it's like rotting away, and then you look at the amount that have to be exposed to for long periods of time, far beyond just what your saliva rinses from you and hopefully you brush your teeth.
• 58:46
  Philip Pape: It's a non-concern, but it's interesting how the acidity from the sugar breaking down is more the concern, and then the artificial sweetener tends to solve that problem via substitution.
• 58:57
  Philip Pape: So now we're just finding so many cool things here today.
• 59:00
  Philip Pape: So, guys, as we wrap up, I think we've addressed the general premise here about whether diet soda is harmful or not, and in what context and what the evidence is, and we're kind of scratching the surface, because I realize there's a lot out there.
• 59:13
  Philip Pape: Is there one thing that we didn't cover that you wish I had brought up?
• 59:18
  Dustin Lambert: Yeah On whether or not these things are banned in Europe.
• 59:21
  Dustin Lambert: Wow.
• 59:22
  Dwayne Ulrich: Didn't even think of that.
• 59:23
  Philip Pape: Okay, that's a good one, let's go there.
• 59:26
  Dustin Lambert: Yeah, so that's a common criticism on a line by the fear mongers, and you know the answer is, quite frankly, no.
• 59:35
  Dustin Lambert: So what people are missing about things that are supposedly banned in Europe?
• 59:40
  Dustin Lambert: So they'll say a lot of things are banned in Europe.
• 59:42
  Dustin Lambert: Bha, bht I think aspartame was the latest one.
• 59:45
  Dustin Lambert: Europe doesn't use the word.
• 59:47
  Dustin Lambert: They have an e-designation for food additives.
• 59:50
  Dustin Lambert: So if you want to go and look at it, you can just Google European Food Safety Authority food additive list and you'll find e-designations for things.
• 59:59
  Dustin Lambert: Aspartame is under the e-designation E951.
• 1:00:02
  Dustin Lambert: Ak is E950.
• 1:00:04
  Dustin Lambert: Sucralose is E955.
• 1:00:07
  Dustin Lambert: Yeah, so these things aren't banned in Europe.
• 1:00:10
  Dustin Lambert: The people that you're listening to just don't know anything.
• 1:00:13
  Dustin Lambert: There we go.
• 1:00:16
  Philip Pape: Anything to add to that, Dwayne?
• 1:00:18
  Dwayne Ulrich: No, but well, I will add this there are some plant extracts that are banned in Europe as well, Like cannabis.
• 1:00:24
  Dwayne Ulrich: Cannabis good Maybe that's a podcast for one of us to do.
• 1:00:33
  Dwayne Ulrich: Yeah, I'm with coach on that.
• 1:00:35
  Dwayne Ulrich: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:00:36
  Philip Pape: I mean, I tend to my skepticism.
• 1:00:38
  Philip Pape: Hairs go way up when you say Europe or California.
• 1:00:41
  Dustin Lambert: So yeah, same difference man.
• 1:00:43
  Philip Pape: Same difference.
• 1:00:44
  Philip Pape: Yeah, yeah, yeah, all right, man Cool.
• 1:00:46
  Philip Pape: So your friends?
• 1:00:53
  Philip Pape: Yeah, yeah, all right, man Cool.
• 1:00:54
  Philip Pape: So this has been awesome.
• 1:00:54
  Philip Pape: I think we had fun.
• 1:00:54
  Philip Pape: I think I learned a few things that I didn't know, which is always real, real gold.
• 1:00:56
  Philip Pape: When I have these conversations, I do want to ask you where you want people to find, you guys.
• 1:00:57
  Philip Pape: But since, for sure, you have a podcast, the working way to LLC podcast, is there a specific episode that I'm thinking the artificial sweetener one, but maybe another one that you want to send them to and we can throw it in the show notes?
• 1:01:07
  Dustin Lambert: The artificial sweetener one would probably be good.
• 1:01:09
  Dustin Lambert: It ties right into this.
• 1:01:10
  Dustin Lambert: And then there is the artificial food dyes.
• 1:01:13
  Dustin Lambert: I think would be another excellent one for people to listen to, to get a better idea on how to kind of understand the research regarding these food additives.
• 1:01:23
  Dustin Lambert: Cool.
• 1:01:23
  Philip Pape: Yeah, that's a good one.
• 1:01:24
  Philip Pape: Especially, people talk about protein powders, for example, which have sometimes have the dyes in them and they're consuming lots of them, so we'll I'll include a couple of those in there.
• 1:01:33
  Dwayne Ulrich: I'm going to point them towards caffeine, the coffee thing.
• 1:01:36
  Philip Pape: The coffee one.
• 1:01:36
  Philip Pape: Yeah, yeah, all right.
• 1:01:37
  Philip Pape: So we're going to have a nice library of links in here Point people to.
• 1:01:40
  Philip Pape: Is there anything else you want to send them to IG or anything else?
• 1:01:49
  Dustin Lambert: Not really.
• 1:01:49
  Dustin Lambert: I am on Instagram, but not terribly.
• 1:01:50
  Dustin Lambert: I'm just not too terribly active on social media, so the podcast is probably the best way, sounds good, dwayne, same thing.
• 1:01:55
  Philip Pape: Just go to the podcast.
• 1:01:56
  Dwayne Ulrich: Yeah, go to the podcast, Absolutely.
• 1:01:59
  Philip Pape: All right, man.
• 1:01:59
  Philip Pape: Well, thanks guys for coming on.
• 1:02:00
  Philip Pape: We threw this together last minute this week and it came together really nicely and I hope people learned a ton.
• 1:02:06
  Philip Pape: That's the goal is to learn to be curious, to apply this to themselves, to ask questions, don't just assume that what you see on Instagram is correct and that's the way we do it.
• 1:02:16
  Philip Pape: Thanks for coming on, guys.
• 1:02:17
  Philip Pape: Yeah.
• 1:02:17
  Dwayne Ulrich: Good deal.
• 1:02:17
  Philip Pape: Yeah, thanks for having us Thanks a lot.