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Work Stress: Dependable but increasingly depleted? This Episode Is for You · Work Stress Anxiety | Burnout Prevention & Work Anxiety Help

• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: Don't bully yourself if there is a situation where you cannot live up to your boundaries, but don't forget about them.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's the line from Hannah Kuhn at the heart of today's episode.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: So, welcome to WorkStress Anxiety.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Cheryl Parrott, and in this conversation, Hannah Ruck and I talk about value, guilt, and the small body signals that can tell us when something is just not quite right.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's about noticing, choosing, and adjusting.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: So let's get started.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to work, stress, anxiety.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Cheryl Paris, your host.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: I hope you're doing well if you're joining us today.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: I am so fortunate to have a friend.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: I would consider Hannah now a friend.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: So welcome Hannah.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, and thank you for having me here.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm so happy to be with you again, and I'm happy to call you my friend as well.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: Now, the reason why I call you friend, Hannah, is because I know that you are coming from a place of understanding when we talk about these things.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I know a lot of people don't struggle with knowing their boundaries.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think they struggle with tolerating how it feels to say, this is my boundary.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm interested, what do you think would help them with that part?
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think that one of the things we spoke about this earlier, the two of us, in an earlier episode, but that is really to understand your own values and where they come from.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: Because when you know that, then you also know why you you are saying yes and no.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's so much easier for you then to see which path is it that I should work or go for.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: So if you haven't listened to that episode, and I would I would recommend that you go back and listen to that with the values there.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: And the other thing I usually ask a question to leaders that I'm coaching, I'm asking them, would you prefer to be respected or would you prefer to be likable?
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: And most of them say that I would like to be both.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but you can't.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: You need to decide because the decision you take, I mean, if you want to be, and most of them then land in I want to be respected.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: Because being respected doesn't mean that you are are I mean, you still have empathy, you still have compassion, you are still working with all those things, but you know your own values, you know the reason why you say yes or no.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: If you say that, yeah, but I want people to like me, and and you know, I live in Sweden, and that is something that we are struggling with here in Sweden, because we believe that we should always be likable and we should always agree to everyone, and we should say yes to everything.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: And why?
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean you can't say yes to everything, but you need to know why you're saying yes or no.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: And quite often it's easy as well to if you go with the respect, then you can also ask place the question back.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, what would you answer to your own question?
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: That makes them start to think, okay, yeah, I would probably answer this.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I agree with you, or no, I disagree with you.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: I would actually answer like this, and this is the reason why I would do it.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: So there are different reasons or different ways to manage this.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: I don't even recall the question that you placed to me there, but to different kinds of questions that you can place yourself and that will impact the way that you are showing up, and also just keeping this with the respect.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you should show yourself respect, right?
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: And it's interesting you should say that because to me, to be respected doesn't mean that you have to be liked.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: To me, being respected means that, for example, me and you, we can have completely different opposing views about something, but we have enough respect for our relationship that we can talk to each other in a civil way around those things.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why I think your point about respect versus being liked, I would always say aim to be respected because you will respect yourself more, you know?
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: Because one of the things that I notice that people, especially in the workplace, they want to be liked, which is why they constantly say yes to things that and you can see it sometimes, that they are completely incongruent because the words coming out of their mouth are completely different to what their body is saying, but still yet they're saying, Okay, yes, all right, I'll do this.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things I want to encourage people to do, Hannah, and I don't know if you're watching the same, is to question, is to put a pause, a pause before the answer.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: Whatever that pause is, whether it's you know, 10 seconds to think about connecting with your values or understanding why it is that you're doing something.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just interested, Hannah.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things that I think talking about boundaries, I think it's easy to define a boundary because once you've done the value work, yeah, I think it's easier, I should say, to define your boundary.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: But it's to me, what does it take the day after day when perhaps you're in a workplace, you're in a workplace that even though it has the poster on the wall, I mean that I've got that poster on the wall, but I believe every single word of that I spent a long time coming, not coming up with it, it formed because of what I was with my own values, right?
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: And the work that I want to do, I want people to understand that we're all on a journey, and we all want that journey to be balanced, which is part of my philosophy, that we want to have time at work, time with our family, time with our friends, time to just chill, that all those things should be balanced, that nothing needs to be rushed, it can be a small step, and all of these things combined together makes the progress that we're looking for in our lives.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: But a lot of people they feel as if okay, so I've defined my values, and my values are this.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I need things to work out right now, and they're not working out right now, so that means my values don't matter, or I failed.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: What can people do today, tomorrow, next week, next month, Hannah, to make sure that they keep their boundaries clean and kind?
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: There are different things.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things that comes up in my mind is manifestation.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: Manifestation, and in the way that I'm talking about manifestation is that you actually say to yourself and you feel within your body, how do I want to live my life?
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I had one of my manifestations that I'm working with is that I want to have joy and happiness.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: I want to have joy and happiness around me.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: I want to have my children and grandchildren around me.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: I want to hear laughter and joy.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: And you know what happened during the summer because it's been summer now?
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: I had all of them here for a full day in my house.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: There was so much joy and happiness.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: There was so much laughter, and everyone was just playing around.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: And that has not happened before.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I would not say that it's only the manifestation, but really see what is it that I want to have, what is important in my life, because that is also when you will recognize when you see it.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: If I wouldn't have done that manifestation, that day might have just been as any other day, and I wouldn't have noticed the joy and happiness and laughter that was there.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: So manifestation is really something that I I do believe is good.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: And what you will do, what happens as well when you're doing that is that you keep your sight on the horizon.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm quite often talking about the drama box.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: We love drama boxes, don't we?
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, how many how many coffee tables have we not been around and we have been digging into all the gritty-nitty drama that we have around us?
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: Ah, did you know that he was cheating to her or yeah, you know, all those things, and we are going into this drama.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: But if we keep on focusing on the drama, we will lose sight of the horizon and what actually is most important for us.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: So that is also the manifestation when we're doing that, that will keep our eyes open on a longer pace.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, that is one of the keys to really work with.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then of course, also, I mean, we have the values, we've been talking about the values, we have the boundaries, and what does that mean for me?
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's not equal to what it means for you.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: So you need to know your own boundaries and the reason why you have those boundaries.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: If it comes to work, let's say that no, I should not work more than 50 hours any week.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, that you might be in a situation where you have to work 55 to 55 hours.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's fine.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: But don't make that a routine, something that is regular.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: Go back to your ordinary pace.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: And don't bully yourself if there is a situation where you cannot live up to your boundaries, but don't forget about them.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's like when you are on a diet.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: You might take a cookie or something, and then you feel ashamed.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: Why did I take that cookie?
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you already eaten it, forget about it, but don't take a second one.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's the same thing.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: And that is also connected to the drama box because we intend to focus on the cookie that I took instead of all the cookies that I did not take.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: And as long as we focus on the cookies that I did not take, that will be the signal that I'm sending to my brain.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: So going back to this with the boundaries, and let's say that I should I have a boundary that I should always be home for dinner together with my family.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's probably something that all of us want to be, the ones who have a family.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: But let's use that.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: And if you focus on all the 95% that you are in together with your family by the dinner table, then that 5% that you might not manage will not hit you that much.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: Coming back to the shame and guilt.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you focus on, oh, I was supposed to be there, I couldn't.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: No, you couldn't.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: But you took a decision.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: And that is another part that I can connect to here as well.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: I ask a question and I ask the audience this question now.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: When was the last time that you felt guilt?
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: And most people say that that's something I do more or less every day.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I say why?
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: Because when you have started to take active decisions, meaning that you know why you did not attend the dinner table on Thursday, instead of saying that, oh, I did not manage.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: No, you could manage, but you took a decision that you wanted to finalize the activity that you did at work before you went home.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: It was an active decision that you took.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: Then you don't need to feel guilty about it.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: It might sound I mean, when I'm saying it like this, it might sound, yeah, it's easy for you to say.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: But you know what?
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: That is also something that I can say that I don't feel guilt anymore.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: Because I intend always to take active decisions.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you're right.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think you're right.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: When we I mean, like I said, we have to have a find a good balance.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: But it's interesting, you know, when we defined, and anyone who's listening to this, if you haven't defined what your true values are, I would ask you to take the time to do that.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to have a long list.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's not about how many you have, it's about the four, five, or even six things that define or actually two values.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: I would say that you should stick to two or maybe three, but no more than three values.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you have more than more values than that, then you will not be able to sort them up here in your brain.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: And that coming back to this, this with really to make sure that to understand what a value is and where it comes from.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I don't know if you agree with me there, Cheryl.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: No, I do, but the reason why I said about maybe five or six, because I know I have like the value of justice, I have a value of integrity.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, maybe what I call my values might be different to what you might call them something that you might call them aspirations.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: One of my values is to connect with people, to make time to connect.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, each week it's one of it's also one of the reasons why I do volunteering as well.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: Because I feel as if I have to do something that's larger than myself.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's not just about what I want, it's about how can I put myself up for someone else in a way that I don't get anything in return for doing.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what I mean when I say, you know, what I consider value.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: And why is that important for you, Cheryl?
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: Why is that important?
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: Why is it important for me?
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think look back at my life and I think to myself, it's like one of the reasons why I do the podcast.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: I wish I had something like this to listen to or to be a part of when I was like 16, 17, and I didn't know who the hell I was, right?
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: I wish I had something like my podcast.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: Because to me, it's not about, and you know, I say this, it's not about everyone listening to every single episode, right?
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's not about that.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: What it is for me, you might hear something that maybe I say or something that you say, Hannah, and it makes you think about your situation in a completely different way.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's the insight that you might have, the one thing that you might need to turn your situation around.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why I do this.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, we're talking about work and stress, and because that's where most people generally in life, that's where they experience the most stress and anxiety.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: But it's not that's what we talk about.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: But the aim is so you have the listener gets an insight that they may not have had before.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I never thought about it that way before.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: If I think about it that way, I can go and take action because that's what it's all about, isn't it?
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's not about talking.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, don't get me wrong, this is great, us talking.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's about action.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: What am I going to do with the information that I have?
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: What am I going to do with the knowledge that I have?
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know, because loads of people know what to do.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's just like you were talking earlier about diets, right?
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: We know intellectually, we know what we should be doing, but do we do it?
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: No, because we refuse to take action.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: Why do we refuse to make action?
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: Part of the reason is because our values are not in alignment with each other.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: Another reason is we have all this social media out there telling us that we've got to be perfect at everything all the time.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure you see people's internet feeds, Instagram or Facebook, that is always about what they've done.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know what I mean?
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: Not about what they've helped other people do.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we've been encouraged to look inwards into ourselves, and that to me is one of the reasons why we're all so unhappy.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not talking about you, Hannah, because I know you're a very happy woman, and so am I.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: But we've had to go, we've had to go the long way, that journey to that insight.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: I want people to have a shortcut, not a shortcut in terms of work, because I know, and you know, there's you always have to do the work, there's no shortcut.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: But if you can just think of something slightly in a different way that's gonna make a difference to how you step out tomorrow, that's what I want for people.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: That that's truly what I want because my life would be completely different.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: Not that my life's not great, I'm really fortunate.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: I've been on that journey.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: My life is truly, you know.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: When I first started the podcast, I called it amazing, brilliant, gorgeous, wonderful because that's exactly how I feel about my life now.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: But back when I was 17, I tried to kill myself because I didn't understand what was going on in my head.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know what I mean?
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: Even though I was an intelligent young lady, I didn't understand what was going on.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: No, I thought it was me, and so many people think it's them, they think they are the problem.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I want people, I hope, to understand you are not the problem.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: What you are experiencing is a symptom of the problem.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: A symptom of the problem, and what you are experiencing is your nervous system talking to you.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: And that is why it is so important to understand, and coming back to this with spotting your signals, to start to recognize them.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: Give yourself that gift to recognize, start to recognize your signals.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: And and as you do that, then you can start the work to be a better version of yourself for your own sake.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's interesting, Hannah, and I don't mean to cut you off.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: Please carry on.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: No, I was connecting back to your value there.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: That you said that one of your values was to connect with people, and and I do believe that that is a way for you to live your value to share knowledge and to save people, and that is your value to share and save people and give, give to others.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: So the connecting to people.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: We're all so unique.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: We are all of us, we are so unique.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, we're brought up in school systems that want us to be uniform.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost like they want us all to be clones of each other, but nature's not like that.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: No, thank God.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: You look outside the window, even if you look at all the same types of trees, they don't look the same, they all grow differently.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's one of the things that we all need to connect back to.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: Now, before before I let you go, Hannah, I'm gonna I've got one more question to ask you, if that's okay.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: Now, what do you think is one tiny sign that someone who's beginning to rediscover their clarity, rediscover themselves, even if their work situation hasn't been great?
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think is one tiny signal for them?
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: One signal for them to start to recognize that they need to shift.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: Is that what we are focusing on here?
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I would say the muscle tension.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, and I can say that for myself, going back to myself as an example there as well.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: I I had an injury like nine years ago, and it was in my hip.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: So that made me have a great or huge pain in my body.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: I couldn't sleep, I had to take painkillers, and I went to my doctors and asked them, please just cut my leg off.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want it anymore.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was such a huge pain.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: But then I I started to see that this pain is very strong Friday afternoon.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: Why is this pain so strong on Friday afternoon?
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: And then mm-hmm, there's a specific meeting that I have every second Friday afternoon.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: And when I realized that the pain that I had in my body, of course, yes, I had my injury, but that was not causing the pain in my body.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: That was my nervous system going back to the nervous system and what the body is telling you.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: That was my nervous system telling me that Hannah, you should not be in that place.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: You should not be in that meeting.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: And when I realized that and I took myself out of that meeting, guess what?
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: I started to sleep again without any painkillers.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: And today I don't have any pain in my body.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm coming back to this again.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: Listen to your signals and dare to really see the patterns and recognize them.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's the first thing that you can do to yourself.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: Recognizing your own signals and patterns.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: Hannah, I want to thank you so much for your time that you spent with me today.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I do get very passionate about these things because I want people to have the best life possible that they can have.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I just want to thank you for your time today and sharing your insights.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Hannah.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think one of the biggest takeaways from today's episode is not that boundaries are not proven by being perfect, they are supported by knowing what really, really matters.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: Hannah reminds us that guilt often grows when we drift through choices without naming them.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you to Hannah for joining me.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: Her relevant links and resources are in the show notes.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: And if this conversation has helped you, please love WorkStressAnxiety at lovepodcast.com or slash WorkStressAnxiety.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: And please provide your feedback as well because that helps us.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: And me in particular, think about the type of conversations you guys want to hear.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: So bye for now.