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Healing a Traumatic Past (CPTSD) · Gay Men Going Deeper

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Foreign.
• 0:03
  Speaker B: Welcome to Gaming Going Deeper, a podcast series by the Gaming's Brotherhood where we talk about personal development, mental health and sexuality. I'm your host, Matt Lansdell. I am an intuitive life and spiritual coach and counselor. I specialize in teaching people how to heal toxic shame and attachment trauma and embody their authentic self so they can enjoy more meaningful connections in their lives. My areas of expertise are working with highly sensitive people, empaths and gay men to develop a stronger sense of self worth. Today's topic is Healing a Traumatic Past. We're going to be talking about complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, cptsd. And we are joined by Scott Blackwood.
• 0:44
  Speaker C: Hello. Thank you very much for having me. And just a little bit about myself is that I come from a small rural town and I was able to get 3 degrees and travel abroad, including Australia and England. And I think, yeah, right now I'm in education. I'm really liking it, but I'm really excited for this podcast and discuss all the things that healing can bring.
• 1:09
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:10
  Speaker B: You and I connected actually. How did we first meet? I think you messaged me and we just started kind of bantering back and forth and we. Eventually you had told me that you had experience with CPTSD and trauma and both professionally and personally, and we shared that sentiment and we ended up meeting in Calgary here. Because you just moved to Calgary.
• 1:31
  Speaker C: Right. So I became a fan of the Gaiman's Brother Brother, the podcast game and going deeper during COVID I kind of listened to you guys and then I was able to meet Michael in Toronto. And then from there the seed was planted that I thought maybe I had something to offer from really like an experience point of view. I do have a background in neuropsychology, so I'm able to understand the neuro kind of mechanics and mechanisms and the biology that happens to with people with trauma.
• 1:57
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 1:58
  Speaker C: But sort of learning to apply that to my own life and my own situation rather than to somebody else that kind of made me think, you know, maybe my story could maybe help somebody out there. Just like many of the episodes that you guys have done really connected with something in me and made me think it's time to maybe start talking and since then listen to your podcast and I think you guys are really talking about some good, good stuff and it's helping to heal a lot more people than maybe we think it. It might be.
• 2:25
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, thanks Scott.
• 2:27
  Speaker B: I appreciate that.
• 2:31
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 2:31
  Speaker B: And just to kind of give people an idea. So I was. About a year ago I was diagnosed with cptsd. I was having a lot of what appeared to be ADHD symptoms. My mind, I was losing my train of thought a lot. I was having a lot of emotional ups and downs. I was, I was finding that I was struggling with mood and energy levels and these sorts of things. So I decided to see a psychiatrist and did an assessment and came back that I would had some stuff, you know, complex ptsd. So what we want to do for some people that are listening might not know what that is. So I want to give a bit of a breakdown. So first of all, we'll talk a bit about trauma. Like, trauma is this giant umbrella, right. And it includes so many different things. You have ptsd, cptsd. You have chronic trauma or ptsd. Chronic ptsd. So what we're talking about today is complex ptsd, which is relational or attachment trauma. Okay. But trauma itself oftentimes has this. People have a lot of misconceptions about trauma and the impact of trauma. And we view trauma as these big T traumas.
• 3:44
  Speaker C: Okay, Absolutely. Which is very, I think for me it was, you know, I, I, I did some therapy when I was younger and I was sort of, I was, guess I was sort of looking for a diagnosis of like, anxiety. Must be, it must be depression. It must be something else. And it wasn't until I got into a certain type of therapy that people, you know, professionals started mentioning that this is a trauma response happening because of this thing that happened to you.
• 4:10
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 4:10
  Speaker C: And I wouldn't really accept that because to me the word trauma was only apply applicable to people who had suffered in war and rape and something. And that's sort of what we were conditioned to believe was the definition of trauma.
• 4:24
  Speaker B: Exactly.
• 4:25
  Speaker C: And I think that as a gay man, myself and a population, our community, there's a lot of trauma that happens within our community, but we're not, we weren't allowed to express it as such.
• 4:36
  Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So, so, you know, we oftentimes people think trauma is big T. That's the kind of the, the lingo T trauma, little T trauma. But what I've learned in a lot of the research I've done in, in trauma and with my own trauma is that trauma is, is a wound. Okay. It's a rupture that happens. And especially relational trauma, it's repetitive ruptures that are happening within a relationship. And it, this wound is essentially the meaning. Well, trauma is essentially the meaning that we make of this wound. So when we have like a big T trauma, we have a little T trauma. The same Trauma could happen to the same person or to different people. And the. The outcome, the meaning that those people make could be completely different. And one could be traumatized, one could not. So I'm not a huge fan of labeling trauma as big T or little T. I think it's about the meaning that we make of the experiences that happen to us that we want to really be clear about. And.
• 5:39
  Speaker C: Yeah. And I, like, I really agree. I thank you for that clarification. And I think that's. Right. It's sort of the event isn't the trauma. It's the wound that happens afterwards. And it's just like it's a wound on your psyche. Right. And that wound is whether it keeps happening again and again and again or what weight is put on it. And, you know, for a lot of gay men, it was just an additional factor to that. You don't belong. You're not worth it. You're not enough. And to develop that throughout your whole life. You know, the one thing we do know in neurobiology is that it's the way that your brain stores trauma is sort of fails at the moment. Right. The. The body's flooded with cortisol and the hippocampus, which makes the memory is. Is doing. Not doing its job well. So when it comes up again and again and again, even though you might be out of the context or the environment that it happened in.
• 6:29
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 6:30
  Speaker C: You still can react that way because it was kind of encoded incorrectly at the beginning.
• 6:36
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 6:36
  Speaker B: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that.
• 6:38
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
• 6:40
  Speaker C: Helps to kind of explain some of my personal behavior and my choices and my understanding of my life when I. When I can understand what's happening in a. In sort of a physical sense. And it's sort of like. I think it's a way for us to really realize that once you allow it to be trauma, once you allow that word into your life and accept it, you. Since sort of a. Forgiveness kind of comes as well. You know, what maybe you thought was wrong isn't wrong. Shame. You know, it ties into so many parts of our lives.
• 7:09
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 7:10
  Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And I think a lot of people. Well, if not most people have. Have experienced trauma in their lives. When we take this definition away of it having to be war or rape, and we look at, you know, CPTSD is relational or attachment trauma. This is a. This is trauma that has occurred in relationships. So how many of us have unmet needs or neglect or these sorts of things in our parental relationships, in the relationships with siblings? Or this could be bullying. It could be breakups, anything like this. This leads to attachment or relational trauma, which is, I think, the. The big one that we want to talk about today, because I think a lot more people are impacted by this than people think.
• 7:56
  Speaker D: Right.
• 7:57
  Speaker B: And again, you know, you look at ADHD and they oftentimes like CPTSD is misdiagnosed or ADHD is misdiagnosed as cptsd.
• 8:10
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 8:10
  Speaker B: So there's a correlation there, because the way that relationship trauma affects the brain is going to. Some of the impacts of that are going to be very similar to adhd. I wrote down some of the symptoms here of. Of, you know, CPTSD and how it could show up. First one being emotion, emotional dysregulation, changes or challenges in relationships. So you struggle, you might have an insecure attachment style, difficulty paying attention, negative beliefs about yourself in the world around you, and somatic distress. So nervous system dysregulation, and a lot of these things do show up in an ADHD diagnosis.
• 8:49
  Speaker D: Right.
• 8:50
  Speaker B: So it's. It's important to kind of make that distinction and, and rule that out. And for me, I thought that's what I. That's what I thought. I literally went to the psychiatrist, being like, I think I have adhd. I'm having trouble concentrating and these sorts of things. And luckily he was well trained and was able to pick out that this was more of a chronic trauma response that I. That I had going on.
• 9:11
  Speaker C: So how did you feel when you heard that? Like, I, you know, well, I'll give you time to, to let me know. How did you feel when you sort of thought, yo, you're presenting this way. It must. Maybe it's this. Oh, and then to hear someone say, oh, no, actually, it's nothing to do with that. It's basically your. A lot of your experiences.
• 9:28
  Speaker B: Yeah, well, it was. For me, I kind of felt a little bit like, oh, man. Like, you know, I've been on this journey for so long and doing a lot of deep trauma work, and I've done a lot of talk therapy with trauma work, but I had never done, like, a full course of somatic work, which I think is, you know, the research shows that, you know, when. If we. If we need. If we want to fully heal trauma, we have to be working with the body because the trauma stores itself in the body and the nervous system, so we need to work with the nervous system. So I started a journey, I started a long journey, and that's been this whole year, basically is working with a somatic therapist. And it's changed my life. But it's also been really deep. I think relational trauma, it's. You know, it changes the brain for me. Like, my brain feels like different. How I am in relationships has been really challenging. A lot of avoidance in. In relationships, A lot of anxiety in my relationships. And so it kind of. It was the piece to the puzzle that I was like, okay, like, I need to. I need to work on this.
• 10:33
  Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, like, that's exactly how I felt. Like you and I connected when we first came to Calgary and we sort of shared these stories. And it was like both had a very similar experience and I was looking more towards like, oh, maybe this is anxiety or this is something else. And when I kind of opened up and listened to it, it was like, oh, no. Your body has stored this for so long. That one of my really good abilities as a result of my traumas, to disconnect and disassociate. And that's one thing I can do from my body. And so in a relationship, in any relationship, work, pure close, not close. I can feel my own body sort of starting to get ready for something bad that's going to. That my body thinks gonna happen. And to get. I'm just starting that work of somatic therapy and getting through that to see how it. To see how it goes. But I think you're right. The nervous system definitely needs regulated. And I think unless you become aware of the fact that what is your triggers and what are. What is your trauma, you know, your nervous system won't ever kind of come down.
• 11:33
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
• 11:35
  Speaker B: What does that look like for you? Like dissociating.
• 11:40
  Speaker C: Dissociating just looks like. Well, so that was my. So my trauma comes from having grown up in a rural town. And at the age of about 8, I was just started. I just got called a. So from about grade four, early grade four, to all the way to high school, to the point where I actually skipped a grade in high school. I went from grade 11, skipped grade 12. At the time I'm aging myself. But then I went straight to oac. So I was able to skip to get out. And really I was kind of running away from the town and running away from what was happening to me because it was really secretive and awful and looking back, not something I should have had to ever endure. But one of the coping mechanisms that I came up with that I now call a part of me was that to disassociate was this isn't happening. Just walk taller, you know, and really get perfect start, you know, Going, get smarter, be better, all of those kinds of things. That's what it looks like for me. And disassociating is, is easy for me and sometimes I don't recognize when I'm actually doing it because it's just such a habit now of. And Even as a 43 year old man, I can disconnect if, if something comes up that I'm not aware of, I'll just disconnect. And it's not as in a multiple, what am I trying to say? Multiple personalities, but it's just a good, good coping mechanism to avoid your body feeling what it thinks is going to hurt.
• 13:06
  Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. They actually call it dissociative identity disorder now which is like the, the old term was multiple personality disorder. And that is really when we dissociate, when we dissociate, it's, we're, we're connecting to a part that we've created.
• 13:21
  Speaker D: Right.
• 13:21
  Speaker B: That's why it was called multiple personality disorder, because it's. But really I think they're realizing that these aren't really personalities. These are like parts within us, like might be like substructures of personality.
• 13:33
  Speaker C: Yeah, they're talking about it like a mono mind. Right. That everyone kind of thought everyone has one brain and one part and that's it. And it's like the, you know, the more we, to people that we don't, it's very like, you know, there's a lot more parts. Just like a car has many parts, we have many parts. And if you go through something at a young age, which I think is important to mention with the, the relational trauma, is that if that's at a young age and your brain is developing, it's going to come up with really clever ways to keep you around and keep you safe and, and help you survive. So for me as a kid, I came up with a lot of really good, good coping strategies and good mechanisms that kept me safe. But as an adult, you know, you realize it doesn't necessarily always work as well because it kind of keeps you from. One of my big ones is to stay small. And it, you know, it tells you to not talk and you're not smart enough and you're not good looking enough and you're not those kinds of things. And that's all from, you know, making sure that the light isn't shined on you too brightly because if it is, then someone can take you down from that feeling of good. So, you know, it is a, it's like a subconscious act now and it's like something I have to work on to get towards feeling like, okay, I can. I'm allowed to be bigger. I'm allowed to be bright. I'm allowed to be authentic. And I think that's, you know, sort of a. Something happens in our community, we kind of are all aware of it and it can bring us down and make us do a lot of things we don't necessarily authentically want to do.
• 14:58
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
• 15:00
  Speaker B: I think a lot of people are going to relate to what you just shared there. And I think a lot of people in our community have been bullied for being gay and called and queer and these sorts of things when we were, when we were younger and. Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry you had to experience that.
• 15:16
  Speaker C: It's.
• 15:20
  Speaker B: You know, I'm curious about the impact that, that, that, that had on you.
• 15:24
  Speaker C: So the biggest. I'm going to tell a story that I think kind of sums up the impact. And. Okay, I was about. So I'd skipped out of. Skipped a grade in high school and then I relocated to Toronto. Long story short, ish. I was at a nightclub once, downtown Toronto, which is quite, you know, I know it's not that the epicenter of the world, but at the time it was kind of a big place for fashion and movies and things like that. And my friend and I were out and we were just having a nice night out. And I was approached to be a model, and I'm 21 at the time. And, you know, I got the card. It was Elite Modeling Agency, one of the big ones, blah, blah, blah. And I went in and I thought, you know, what's this? Okay. Went in and they offered me this, you know, this job, this contract to be competition for this other company. And they had a billboard outside the window and they showed, you know, told me that I would be that guy's competition and et cetera. And part of me wanted it right. That would be cool and exciting and whatever. But the part that I kind of created when I was growing up, you know, that kept me small was just really loud at that time. And therefore, you know, I couldn't a. I couldn't accept that they would think I would be the one that would be attractive enough to be on a poster. I couldn't accept that it would be something that made. That I would be able to do and, you know, consider an achievement of sorts and whatever. So the, the fact that I kind of, you know, went through that period and then I kind of realized that, holy crap. Like a lot, not a lot of People would have said no to that. So why did I say no to that? And to realize the impact was really great. It was. It. The impact of my bullying kept me that small. That's something that other people may have just walked with and been able to handle. All the success I had to turn away because a part of me couldn't handle it, you know, So I think that kind of sums up that idea that what happens to you when you're young sticks around and it can really. It looks like sabotage when you're older. And it can, it can, you know, res. Resist what. Not. Not resist. Restrict what you can do and, and what you think you can do when you're confident. So I think it really has an impact more than we realize. Like, we know the neural parts of it, we know the psychological parts of it, but the real life part of it, when all of these are applied is like, it can really take you down, you know, And I think there's a lot of gay men that have spent some long days and long nights in really dark spaces. And I think it's, you know, it's time to sort of maybe look into what's happening with somebody and, and check, check yourself out, but also forgive yourself that it's not your fault and allow yourself to be authentic. Is. Is going to be my life's work. And it's, it's, you know, the bullying, the bully has a job that happens. Kind of. It's all. It's one and it's done, you know, and for the rest of my life, it'll be something that I have to kind of work on. So on that point, you know, I'm in education now and one of my goals is to not sort of to control that a bit better. Because when I was in, when I was a kid in school, I wouldn't say, I mean, they knew what they knew at the time, but I wouldn't say it was handled well. Right. I think that it would be to go back. There could have been things that maybe prevented what happened, but now we know more and we do better. So hopefully that's something I can help out with. But, yeah, the impact is pretty deep.
• 18:40
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 18:44
  Speaker B: You talked to.
• 18:45
  Speaker C: Sorry, interrupting.
• 18:47
  Speaker B: No, no, go ahead.
• 18:48
  Speaker C: I was going to say yourself, like, I know we've, we've sort of spoken off camera about what your past has been like, but in terms of finding out that it is the, the trauma piece affecting your brain, how does that, what does that look like in your life?
• 19:05
  Speaker B: Yeah, I don't feel complete asking you questions. So I'll hold and I want to ask you one thing, and then I will share. I'll share a bit about my story, but I want to make sure your story gets the air time that it deserves. And I think this, this notion of sabotage, right? So you experience this trauma when you're younger and you dissociate as a way to cope. You said you dimmed your light so you wouldn't let yourself step forward and be authentic and, and be who you are. And then you sat. You're. You're sabotaging. That's one of your protectors, right? Like, because when you go through that, when we dissociate, when we. When we need to guard up, we're protecting, right?
• 19:51
  Speaker C: That's what I found out, Matt. I found out through the, you know, therapy is that the. The things that I did as a kid to protect myself, I was actually creating really, really solid parts inside of myself, right? So the train that kind of heads through my brain when something outside happens, kind of triggers it and it goes here. And then this part says, oh, okay, we're. We're going to be attacked somehow, even though we're not. And so then all of a sudden I can just kick back into the habit of what I would have done at that time to stay safe.
• 20:22
  Speaker D: Right?
• 20:23
  Speaker C: And it can appear to people like that, sabotage in your own life, to other people. And yet it's not. It really, really the essence of it is there's no protector inside of you. That's a. One of the parts that they're called is they're there to protect you, and not one of them is there to hurt you. But it can look like that to other people and to find out what's happening inside of you can actually, you know, kind of help a bit more.
• 20:49
  Speaker B: Yes, I agree.
• 20:50
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 20:51
  Speaker B: Our protector parts are really adaptive, in my opinion. Like, you know, it could be procrastination, dissociation, avoidance, numbing addiction, these sorts of aspects. They literally are very adaptive when we're going through what we're going through. Because if you look at what, what cptsd, it's repeated interpersonal violation with no escape. That's how it's described. So we literally, if we can't escape it, we develop these protector parts to cope with it. So we're in survival mode, right? And we're doing the best that we can in survival mode. And I think, you know, when we're, when we have these, these protector parts, they're very adaptive, but until they're not, until we we realize that, like, I'm avoiding intimacy. I am, you know, destroying my health with. With addiction or with substances. I'm.
• 21:45
  Speaker D: Right.
• 21:45
  Speaker B: Like, look at all the. The negative impacts that these, that these protector parts can start to play out in our life. And we get to a point where it's like, I'm ready to start to work with the part of me that the protector part is protecting.
• 21:58
  Speaker D: Right.
• 21:59
  Speaker B: And that's what we need to work with. Yeah, like in. In internal family systems work. It's like the exile, the wounded self, like, you know, the core essence of what we're protecting. Are you aware of what your part is? Like, what's your. What's your exile part? What's the part of you that you're trying to protect against?
• 22:16
  Speaker C: Well, yeah, the exile part of me is the. Just the little boy that, you know, just wanted to live, I think, and didn't understand what was happening at all at the time. And for a long time. Like, you know, 8 till 18 is a long time, and those are developmental years. And I'm not sure that little boy knew what was going on. So the part that I have kind of really protect that little boy now. And it gave me pause because I was used to sort of, I. They come sort of as voices, right? Like, don't do that or don't do this or say that. Self doubt is a big one for me. And the stay small and also the angry one.
• 22:53
  Speaker D: Right.
• 22:53
  Speaker C: Like, don't with me. Those come in and they, they all do work to protect you. But once I understood where they came from and what they were doing and connected that to the trauma, then now you have compassion for all of those things that you do. And if you look at it through that view, it sort of allows us to heal and get back to ourselves. But I've definitely had times when they were taking over and I've been really, really mean to people or I can cut you with words and all that kind of stuff. But I think, yeah, I think it's. Once we understand the compassion we need to have for ourselves, which is hard if one of your parts is like, to not feel sorry for yourself, right then it's to look at that lens of that part with love and then ask, you know, getting those parts of you which we all have to sort of support you differently as an adult. But I think it is tricky. Especially you mentioned intimacy and, you know, it's sex in the gay community, something that we. You guys have talked about on the podcast and intimacy and make those connections. And I do. I Wonder sometimes if maybe there's just a lot of individuals in one room with a lot of trauma.
• 24:02
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 24:03
  Speaker C: And a lot of parts, trying to figure out what to do. And it kind of ends well. And it doesn't end well, you know. And, yeah, for me, I grew up, and when I was in Toronto, I kind of befriended a bunch of people that were maybe, you know, their per. Their perf. Be perfect parts were really at play. And so it was like the looking. The fit bodies, etc. Etc. And, you know, they put people down quite a lot. And.
• 24:26
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 24:27
  Speaker C: And I think, well, looking back, maybe that was actually them sort of trying to cope.
• 24:31
  Speaker A: Right.
• 24:31
  Speaker C: Versus trying to actually be mean, you know?
• 24:34
  Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And I think when we look at people. Oh, and I always try and look at people through, you know, this month we're talking about inner. Inner child work. I always try to look at people in their wounded inner child and that we're all just trying to protect that wounded inner child. So we build all these parts around us to do that.
• 24:54
  Speaker D: Right.
• 24:54
  Speaker B: And we do.
• 24:56
  Speaker C: And, you know, I can speak to that experience. It's funny, the night that I met Michael, actually, I was out at a conference afterwards, and I was a conference about sexuality and education. And long story short, this. This person that I'd never met, I walked into the room and I was a bit late for the conference. And then I. I was just wearing like a turtleneck and a blazer and I left. And then, you know, the next day we all went out for lunch and this one guy said, oh, you know, as soon as you walked in the room at my table, there was like 10 of them at one table, said, that guy would never, you know, he's such a snot. Look at him. And he's so conceited and all this stuff. And at first I was, you know, it hurt. And I thought, you know, that's obviously been your experience with people that look like me or dress like me or whatever, but I was like, I was running in late. I was, you know, wasn't really, you know, fully attentive or whatever. And I thought, but that's. That's how it starts. Right? So that. That view of what. What he holds on, what other experiences he has is being applied to somebody else like myself who maybe has, like, a little bit of trauma myself, and that hurt me and then I would hurt somebody else. And it's sort of like this trickle effect of, you know, if we kind of have to make sure we look at our. Our own parts and. And what we're doing, looking at a lens of compassion for each other versus sort of being standing in the corner and, you know, that, that gay, witful, you know, witty man.
• 26:15
  Speaker A: So.
• 26:16
  Speaker B: Yeah, and that's a total protector part. That's like. Yeah, I always say traumatize people, traumatize people. Hurt people, hurt people.
• 26:23
  Speaker D: Right.
• 26:24
  Speaker B: That's how it works. Like, and I think it is cyclical and it's like mudslinging when, when, you know, whenever part of us that wants to. That gets activated, that we want to throw mud at somebody, that's the trauma.
• 26:34
  Speaker D: Right.
• 26:35
  Speaker B: It's. It's been activated. And then we go into fight mode or fight flight.
• 26:39
  Speaker D: Right.
• 26:39
  Speaker B: Avoidance, and all these parts get activated and there might be a part of us that wants to fight, There might be a part of us that wants to run. And we have all these parts and it's like, which part is going to come and, and be active in this scenario?
• 26:52
  Speaker D: Right?
• 26:53
  Speaker B: So it is, it's like a bunch of. It's like a big wall and each brick is a part.
• 26:57
  Speaker D: Right.
• 26:58
  Speaker B: And when we do this parts work, we're really, we're really looking and examining each brick and saying, okay, what is this brick's job? What is this bricks? Fear? Why is it in place?
• 27:08
  Speaker D: And.
• 27:09
  Speaker B: And we start to get a really good, clear sense of. Of how our parts are showing up in the purpose that they're serving for us. And then we can start to heal them and heal the fears and, and. And then we can start to emerge with the essence of who we are, which in ifs. It's the self energy.
• 27:27
  Speaker D: Right?
• 27:27
  Speaker B: Like that. Yeah. The seed of the self.
• 27:30
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
• 27:31
  Speaker C: And I think it's. That's a really good metaphor because you sort of. If you're building those bricks and you're not looking at how well they're laid out and the structure and the function and the purpose of them. You know, your wall can all of a sudden go jaggedy and fall over. And for me, that's. I think the impact of it as an older man is, you know, not having done the work maybe close enough to the time to. To look back at the healing part, to what needs healed, and then build on that rather than trying to build on an already kind of unsteady wall.
• 28:00
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 28:01
  Speaker C: And I think one of my favorite quotes that Brene Brown says is that we are learning kind of catches up with our experiences. So for me, I kind of realized that my whole life has been sort of. I'm learning about what actually happened. And, you know, I think that's it's what we can pass on in our generation right now to hopefully other people that are experiencing it now is like try to heal kind of. Well, try to get onto that healing ride as soon as you can and recognize and be allowed to call it what it is, what's actually happening.
• 28:30
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love that.
• 28:34
  Speaker B: I want to introduce. Well, this book. This book has been such a godsend for me. It's called Transcending Trauma Healing Complex PTSD with Internal Family Systems Therapy.
• 28:44
  Speaker C: Hey, there you go.
• 28:45
  Speaker B: And it's. It's great. It's very psychological for. For sure. But I'm into this sort of stuff. I do, I do therapeutic work, but for the average person, it might be a little bit too clinical. But for people that are into this sort of stuff, this is, this is great. And actually Frank Anderson, he's also gay.
• 29:06
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 29:06
  Speaker B: So he's one of us, which is awesome. And he does a lot of great work in voice. He works with. Alongside the pioneer of internal family systems therapy, which is inner parts work, which is what we keep referring to. But some of the parts that he describes. And I'll just read them out. Okay. So people can maybe take a mental note and be like, okay, yes, I do that.
• 29:27
  Speaker A: Yep.
• 29:27
  Speaker B: I do that. Because these are the common ones that, that, that we use. And I will say that these are all parts that are developed out of trauma responses.
• 29:35
  Speaker D: Right.
• 29:36
  Speaker B: So we have these trauma responses of. And we've done episodes on this before. Fight, Flight, Freeze and Fawn. Okay.
• 29:44
  Speaker C: And then. Yeah, the fun one was I. I found out listening to you guys, that's an. I've done that. And Interesting.
• 29:49
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 29:49
  Speaker B: People pleasing and these sorts of things. So these.
• 29:52
  Speaker C: Gay friend.
• 29:53
  Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And when we have these responses. So you'll notice that you could take all of these parts that were. That I'm about to list and you could place them under each of these categories. Right. Because that's how we respond to trauma. We either run from it, we run towards whatever's coming and we fight it, or we, we please it. So it. It'll go away. We avoid the conflict of it. So in a pretty jazz, right? Exactly.
• 30:16
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 30:16
  Speaker C: Yeah, for sure.
• 30:17
  Speaker B: So dissociative. So like numbing, numbing, cutting off from your emotional world. Suicidal, shaming, addictive, passive perpetrator, substance using, sexually excessive, sexually avoidant, depressed, panicked, anxious, critical, hyper vigilant, storytelling, worrying, controlling, shy, rigid, rageful or angry, intellectualizing, obsessive, and conflict avoidant. So they're all, all of our parts are going to fall under any of those categories and, or be exactly that.
• 31:01
  Speaker D: Right.
• 31:03
  Speaker C: And like the goal is. Right, is the dysregulation and regulation piece. I think like all of those can make yourself dysregulated. Nervous system's on fire. And then, you know, your brain's not working well and so you're trying to regulate that. And those sometimes can be the way. And you know that the categories you just mentioned can be sometimes the way that you're going to regulate your body.
• 31:22
  Speaker B: Yes, exactly.
• 31:24
  Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah.
• 31:26
  Speaker C: So this way that it's clinical, because I think a lot of people have access to, you know, more clinical language today and it's okay to make it more accessible because I think once you get to the root of it, it's all just saying, here's maybe why you do this. You know, there's a lot of.
• 31:42
  Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. And I, and, and for me, like, I would, I would recommend reading this. It is, it's a manual kind of like for therapists that do work, trauma healing work. But it's still very beneficial for the, the, the person to. That is experiencing CPTSD to kind of understand the healing modalities that are out there. And this is just one of them. Like, ifs is one modality that's showing that research is showing, you know, for cptsd. So.
• 32:12
  Speaker C: Yeah, and I'm like, I'm just being introduced to it and I can really see it as a good functional therapy. And I think it makes, on a logical level, but it also does sound a bit out there for people that are just beginning. But I do realize that once you get onto this, I guess, investigation for myself, really, that you have to kind of be open to the fact that not everyone's going to understand our story, not everyone's going to be able to relate to it. And therefore things that we might talk about or things that, you know, any, any one of the gay community might talk about are really going to be hard for some people to understand.
• 32:43
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 32:44
  Speaker C: You know, luckily you haven't really gone through something enough that, you know, causes all of these things to happen to us.
• 32:51
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 32:53
  Speaker C: Okay. That other people don't understand, you know, And I think for me, if you find out that people are going into therapy and, you know, with one thing in mind and they find out it's another thing, I think that's okay because at least you're on the, you know, at that point of the possibility of moving on. And I love that title transcending, because the one thing we know about trauma, it's not the event, it's the wound. And a wound can be healed.
• 33:13
  Speaker B: Exactly.
• 33:14
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 33:16
  Speaker B: And. And Frank actually talks about his. His experience with trauma and that he had CPTSD and that he healed it. And, you know, just some of the shame that we can have as clinical people in doing this work that we feel like we should be perfect and we should be healed and we shouldn't have. And for me, it's. I carried that for a long time, and probably that's why I avoided doing some of this work earlier in my career, because a part in me, which was probably a bypassing part and avoiding part, was just like, pretend like it's not there. Pretend like you don't have it.
• 33:50
  Speaker D: Right.
• 33:51
  Speaker B: And. But it's interesting when you do that type of. For me, when I do that type of work with people, it's like you have to have a deep connection to your seat of yourself in order to do this work and help people transcend their trauma. So the more work I'm doing in this space, the more I'm able to support people and the better clinical work I'm doing with people, which is absolutely. Yeah, it's really cool to see that.
• 34:13
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 34:14
  Speaker C: Well, I'm really glad you brought that up because I think it is like, I 100% relate to that, that I wouldn't be allowed to have trauma. This would. I wouldn't be able. That's not true. You know, I'm better than this. I'm perfect. I'm perfect. I'm, you know, striving for perfection. You can't tell me that I have this trauma, especially when it was a word that people just only ever associated with what we talked about earlier.
• 34:34
  Speaker A: Right.
• 34:35
  Speaker C: So I think it's really. And, you know, people haven't necessarily all been in your space to feel your energy, but I think that you would 100 be someone that people could go to as a. As a therapist, you in the therapist role, because your energy of trying to understand it and compassion is there. And so it's such a vibe. Right. So, yeah, I think it's really interesting to think about that, that we can't kind of allow ourselves to have some sort of past with it.
• 35:01
  Speaker B: Yeah, well, there's a lot of shame around it too. I think, like, whether you're in a type of role like I am or not, it's. There's a lot of shame around having trauma and the parts of us getting activated constantly, and we are like, why can't I regulate my emotions? Why do I not want to be around People, why am I scared shitless to whatever, do X, Y and Z? Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it's absolutely. Since I've been doing this work, this is really fascinating because I'm realizing my patterns of dissociation throughout my life and more specifically in doing this somatic work. So it was like. I think I did a course of nine months with this woman, and it was like, deep, deep, somatic work. Like, my pelvis would be tremoring. I would be like, just. My body was releasing, essentially, all of the stored trauma that was in my body. It was releasing. And I'm still kind of in this. In this right now. I'm in the. I'm in the thick of it. I would say I'm more closer to the end of this course of healing this than I am in the middle, but I'm still in it. And I'm experiencing fear in my life. Like, I've never experienced it ever. Like, I've had days where I don't even want to leave my house because I'm terrified of running into people or people seeing me. Because when I find. When I'm doing this work is my protector parts are healing. But then my. My sense of self, my seat of self has not been used to being out and exposed to people. And my authentic self has had all these parts kind of negotiating with the world around it. And. Which is probably aspects of inauthenticity.
• 36:32
  Speaker D: Right.
• 36:32
  Speaker B: If you think about the parts, a lot of them are not authentic, and they're part.
• 36:37
  Speaker C: They're like, trying to prevent you from being authentic. Right.
• 36:39
  Speaker B: Because it wasn't safe. Exactly.
• 36:42
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 36:43
  Speaker B: So I'm. I'm just meeting a whole new layer of vulnerability right now because everything just feels really raw and new and, like, I feel like I feel naked in the world right now, like, because it's like.
• 36:56
  Speaker C: It's a sort of scary feeling.
• 36:58
  Speaker B: Like, so scary.
• 36:59
  Speaker C: The throwback. I just watched Alanis Morissette's video, and she did this video a long time ago where she's just sort of standing naked in the streets of New York, and all this is happening around her. And I. The time, I remember thinking, that's a weird video. And now I'm like, oh, I get it. Get it. Because you feel like you've kind of pulled back the layers and pulled back the layers, but now you're this, like, oh, you know, could someone just tap me? And I'll push over and I'll fall over, and. And yet, when you really think about the protectors and what they're doing, you you know, you have to negotiate with them and talk to them, and it's ongoing. There's one that's like, we don't actually. This isn't a problem. You know, like, you don't have one that's got the biggest voice. It's like, get over it. And you think, you know, that's fine, that's fair. I'll give you, you know, give you some compassion and some love. But you're right, I'm the same. And I just relocated here. So, you know, there's a lot of, like, new and. And vulnerable situations happening. And it's really hard to think of them as courageous and brave, which is what they actually are, versus what, you know, your parts are telling you, like.
• 37:55
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
• 37:56
  Speaker C: One of my big ones, I think, is having. After having kind of a. An event with a homophobic boss is the fear of failure.
• 38:06
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 38:06
  Speaker C: And, you know, realizing. Yeah, realizing that that isn't really. It's not up to you. And, you know, people's homophobic reactions aren't anything to do with you. And yet, you know, being vulnerable allows the part to grow and get louder.
• 38:22
  Speaker A: But, yeah.
• 38:24
  Speaker B: Yeah, that's been a big one for me. Fear of failure. And I think, you know, it's really. I associate it with an aversion to looking silly or stupid, and I think that's a big one for me. So, like, when I think about being raw and vulnerable and putting myself out there, that's what I'm afraid of. Like, I'm afraid of putting myself out there and looking stupid or looking silly or failing in front of people. It's such a big, big one for me. And then one of my parts is perfectionistic.
• 38:52
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 38:53
  Speaker B: One of my parts is I'm not afraid of anything. And I would never admit fear ever in my whole life. Like this. This last year or two has been the first two years of my whole life that I've ever admitted that I'm scared. I would never tell people anything. I would always just dissociate and go to the deep end of the pool and I. I wouldn't give two shits. And now I'm not dissociating. So jumping into the deep pools. Oh, my God, So scary. Because I'm no longer associating. Taking to get into the pool.
• 39:24
  Speaker D: Right.
• 39:24
  Speaker B: Kind of like. And that's very different. It's a very different world to live in when you're not dissociating because you feel fear, like, very intensely because it's almost like it's new to me if I Went whatever. I don't know, 35 years in that dissociative state, or maybe not quite as many, because I don't think I was dissociating until I was probably, like, nine.
• 39:46
  Speaker C: If I went that Nomad, like, it's nine, right? I think it's. Yeah, we were like. I think I. I'm a teacher now, and, you know, I teach young kids, and I think it's so. It's so sad, really. And it's. It's kind of impetus for me to do the work and. And what I do now. But, you know, to hear these stories and think, man, that sucks. You know, And. Yeah, definitely. Right about that. Like, it is. Everything becomes real and a little bit harder when you start to allow yourself to feel all the feels. Yeah, right. And you're like, don't. It's not. Don't be afraid. Don't do anything. And then you're like, well, I'm kind of afraid. And then it's, you know.
• 40:19
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
• 40:20
  Speaker C: It's like, what the.
• 40:22
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
• 40:23
  Speaker B: It makes me. I want to share my story. Like, a little piece of my story, because. And. And I will say this. It's really interesting because you and I were supposed to record this last week. We didn't, because I was struggling. I've struggled. I canceled on you twice because I had been struggling, and I'll make that public because. So we ended up releasing the Inner Child episode, and in that episode, I got really emotional. It hasn't been released yet because you haven't seen it yet, but I got really emotional and that those were my parts. They were coming out in that episode, and I didn't. I couldn't control them because, like I said, I'm feeling a lot right now in my life, and everything's just sitting at the surface. But a lot of this started. Yeah, seriously, it's. It's. But I don't feel it right now because I think I've done a lot of work and I feel a bit cerebral right now. I don't feel super emotional, but. Which. I feel comfortable sharing this. You know, just kind of a little tidbits of my story and how it developed. But, you know, when I was younger, like I said, I probably started dissociating when I was around maybe eight or nine. And there was a lot of conflict in my home at the time. My parents weren't getting along, and they were fighting. There was physical altercations in my house at the time, and. And a lot of verbal and. And stuff like that. My mother was experiencing depression. She was drinking, and there was chaos. I was literally in a home where there was a lot of chaos around me at this. At this time. And I also. So that was one prong of it is just no stability at home and no safe place to land. So I felt like I was on my own. And my parents had their own issues. My sister had her thing. And then I was just this island over here. And I didn't feel like I had a place where I could kind of, you know, feel safe. And then throw in. I had my very first thought that I was different or. Or that I was gay when I was about 5. So I didn't come out or I didn't tell anybody I was gay until I was 18. So I was harboring this, you know, this at. At the time as well. So I think why I started dissociating is because all of this pressure was coming in on me being gay. Chaos in my environment. My dad ended up leaving the household when I was about. I think I was maybe like 10 when he left. And my mom, I remember her sitting me down and she would be like, you're the main man of the house now. And, you know, and there was so much pressure. I just remember being pressure and feeling like just the world was coming in on me. And I. And so that's when I'm now looking back, I didn't know up until recently that that's when I started my dissociative patterning and I started leaving my emotional world and I started escaping into my cerebral world and creating fantasy and these sorts of things. And I think. I honestly think I had a premature ego formation when I was younger. Like, I'm really into, like, studying this sort of stuff in psychology. And I think I developed an ego very, very young. And it was my way of escaping and creating separateness from the world around me. And one of my greatest protectors, I think, was the lone wolf, was that I don't need anybody. I don't need anybody in my life. I'm very content on my own. And I played that story out for. Well, I've still kind of been playing it out, actually. I'm noticing it coming in my relationship that I'm connecting with right now. And I'm just kind of like this. This real resistance to want to move towards people. It's like, I tell the story of I'm totally okay on my own. I don't need anybody. I'm hyper independent. I'm very hyper vigilant of people. Like, I'm I'm, I'm always watching people and like I look for discrepancies between what they tell me and what they do and like I'm, you know. So a lot of my protector parts are very, very suspicious and they look out for danger, they look out for chaos, they look out for abandonment, these sorts of things because I again, I felt very unsupported and very alone as a child and I feel like, you know, so whenever I do connect with people, I'm always really hyper vigilant of them leaving because it's going to make me feel that really alone feeling, which I think that's one of my exiles. I think one of my deepest exiles is I am unwanted, I am alone in the world. I'm going to be left like these are really deep seated ones for me and I think so I've got all these little, little protectors, these little army people working around these, these really hurt parts inside of me.
• 45:01
  Speaker C: It's like your committee, the itty bitty shitty committee.
• 45:03
  Speaker B: Yeah, exactly, exactly. So it's been really cool doing some of this work and really getting a clear sense of where these parts live in my body because some of the, the woman that I've been seeing for somatic therapy, she's also trained in ifs. It was like a beautiful fit. This woman's amazing and she's helped me tremendously. Like, okay, let's talk psychologically about the part, let's understand it, but then let's map it in the body and let's find out how it's holding itself in the body and then release, release it. And yeah, it's, it came at the right time.
• 45:35
  Speaker C: It's the hardest work I've ever done.
• 45:38
  Speaker B: I would say for sure it's the hardest work I've ever done.
• 45:40
  Speaker C: I've done like I've been on the side of the neural side, I've been on the side of therapy, side, talk therapy. And this is the hardest one because it's I think the most real and like, you know, just to comment on what, what you've experienced. The lone wolf, I never had that name for it, but I definitely went through a period of I don't need anybody, I don't need this. And then I just. A lot of it is you look back and think, what are you afraid of? What, what are you actually afraid is going to happen if we let go and if we trust. And it's sometimes just too scary for me to actually allow what I think could happen, happen.
• 46:10
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 46:11
  Speaker C: And, and yet at the same time, you're protecting yourself so much that you create this little world around you where you. You're walking the street and your armor is so big and everything is so heavy that it becomes exhausting. Right. It exhausting just to be. And people sometimes say, like, you know, why is it so tricky to be who you are in the world? I'm like, well, that. Because. Because of what happened as a kid, because of this having that kind of reason, that logic and understanding now of the, you know, all of the different experiences built on top of each other.
• 46:42
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 46:43
  Speaker C: You have to forgive yourself for it. And then, you know, then you're. Then the work starts, and the work is hard, and it's. I was angry for a long time that I'm the one that has to do the work, even though I was the one that was being bullied.
• 46:55
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 46:56
  Speaker C: And I think this isn't right, but I think, well, how. What, do I want to get better and do I want to be better in the world, or do I want to stay here? So I think, you know, both you and I have that in common, and many gay men do, too. Is that there's some sort of fighter inside of us.
• 47:08
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 47:08
  Speaker C: That really willing to kind of just give up and accept it all. It's like we're trying to figure it out and how this trauma come to us. And in a way, it's a really. A really smart thing for us to do and to identify this therapy as one of a. Of a choice of different modalities out there. If it works, you know, go for it. It makes sense to you. Go for it. And I think that's kind of. You know, I'm getting a bit sad lately hearing about the. The suicide rates going up in our community. And I know it makes all of my parts come out, I think, and they're all just, like, ready to, you know, do I have to fight? Do I got to be prettier? What. What do I have to do to help everybody else? And, you know, that's why I wanted to be on this, was to. To hopefully reach out to someone and say, you're not. You're not alone. If you're listening to this, you're not. You know, we're all here even though we not. Might not be side by side, but there are people that know your worth. There are people that know you deserve to be alive.
• 47:59
  Speaker A: We are.
• 48:00
  Speaker C: There are people that know that you matter. You know, the essence matters. And it's. You know, we're here to kind of share our stories for that. So It's. Yeah, it's a tricky time.
• 48:09
  Speaker B: I think it is a tricky time. It's. I want to say, just commenting what you had shared before about how this is the hardest work you've ever done. And I agree. And I think I've said this on the podcast before about codependency. Like, I've overcome a crack addiction, and overcoming codependency was way harder than that. Okay. And. But now I'm realizing that my codependency was a symptom of my relational trauma because I had. I had a disturbance in the way that I view myself in and in relation to other. More specifically with my mum.
• 48:43
  Speaker D: Right.
• 48:43
  Speaker B: So I developed codependent patterning, which is like, you know, big O, little S. Like, my sense of self was reliant on my relationships and how much I can meet other people's needs. So a lot of this work for me has been like. It's so deep, it's so layered. And it's gone on. Yeah, it's gone on in layers, like over the course of decades.
• 49:07
  Speaker D: Right.
• 49:07
  Speaker B: And that's the thing with relational trauma that's very different than other types of trauma is it is like constantly happening. So what? There's. There's usually not explicit memory of the things that are happening. There couldn't. There can be, but usually it's implicit. It's stored because it's like a bunch of layers of micro things that have happened. And not even necessarily. They don't even have to be micro. They can be a bunch of macros.
• 49:30
  Speaker D: Right.
• 49:30
  Speaker B: In your case, like bullying. And you're just constantly day after day after day being bullied. And it's going on in layers, in layers and layers. So when we peel it back, we're literally meeting all the layers that have kind of built around our. Our sense of self that we have to peel back. That's why I think this work is so hard, because it's so arduous. It's long, it's hard work. And I want to say to the audience that, you know, there's many modalities that you can use. Talk therapy is great. Somatic therapy is great. Internal family systems therapy is great. EMDR is great for this type of thing. So find a therapist or a coach or a counselor, whoever that. That specializes and is trauma trained that can help you with this. Because I honestly think that's one of my. My biggest regrets is not approaching support sooner because my traumatory people aren't safe. So I didn't even go towards, like, working with a therapist. Until much later in life. I wish I would have started working on my, my CPTSD much younger because it would have been. My life would have been a lot different if I would have.
• 50:43
  Speaker C: Absolutely. I have one memory when I was in school of a counselor being brought in to talk to me as a kid in school. And now that I'm in the position I'm in, I'm like, that should have happened way more often, but I 100% in the same. And my part was I was doing neuropsychology and I was in that world. And so therefore I couldn't be, I couldn't have anything.
• 51:01
  Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.
• 51:02
  Speaker C: And to be afraid of, like, it's not a label. Having trauma isn't a label, it's an experience. And it makes, you know, things that happen make sense. And I think for me, if I was going to say anything out to the audience, it's give yourself the gift of grace, give yourself the gift of forgiveness for yourself and give yourself compassion enough to say, you can't work on this alone because you don't know what, what voice is yours and what voice isn't. And someone outside of you can help you with that. And that's okay. And you and I have connected, I think, because we were meant to. It's sort of like, I think all of this is meant to happen, but it's, we're all out here, we're all talking about the same thing, we're all dealing with it. So let's really get it out on the table. And, and that's our strength. Our strength is in overcoming.
• 51:46
  Speaker A: Right? Yeah. Yeah, I love that.
• 51:49
  Speaker B: Yeah, I love that a lot.
• 51:52
  Speaker C: Me too. I think, yeah, it's sad, but it's, it's really. Hearing that the trauma is the wound was really hopeful for me because then the wound can heal. Right? Not a band aid, but it's definitely something you can keep working with. And it took 17, 18 years for this to happen to me. Or it can't be fixed in overnight. You've got to give yourself, you know, an open ended timeline of when that all gets fixed for you.
• 52:18
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I agree, I agree. I want to just leave the audience with one thing as well. So this work, like the book's great. Working with a therapist is great. But also you can start by just looking at the ways in which you're avoiding certain things in your life and look at the parts in you that are. That where that's coming from. Why would I be avoiding this? Like, for me, it's like I avoid Going out and being around other gay men in groups. Okay, why, why does that show up for me? Well, maybe there's a. There's, you know, a part that is really afraid of being rejected.
• 52:53
  Speaker D: Right.
• 52:54
  Speaker B: Okay, well, what is that? That's the, that's kind of that exiled part, that really wounded part. How am I preventing from doing that? Well, could be isolating, not going out. Or when I do go out, you know, I'm judgy and I'm in that judgment energy.
• 53:07
  Speaker D: Right.
• 53:07
  Speaker B: So we got to look at and we got to take responsibility for ourselves.
• 53:10
  Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. And I think, listen to your body. Like, for me, one of the biggest things I don't like in life in general is being patronized. And my body gets hot, I get heated, and it's like, oh, that person that, you know is talking down to me. So kind of listen to your body. And that's something I missed out on, is you're going out. And especially when I was in a gay bar or in, you know, amongst a large group of gay men, my. I would get. That's my nervous system starting to say, oh, something's wrong. So notice what's happening to yourself and then get curious about why it's happening.
• 53:42
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 53:43
  Speaker C: And that can be best done with somebody, whatever the modality is, you know?
• 53:47
  Speaker A: Yeah, I agree.
• 53:48
  Speaker B: I agree.
• 53:49
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 53:50
  Speaker A: Cool.
• 53:53
  Speaker B: Yeah, I feel pretty complete. I think we've done a good job at sharing our expertise and our personal experiences around this. Is there anything you want to close out with?
• 54:03
  Speaker C: Yeah. So people out there right now, you can just know one of my parts is like that. You talk too much. Like the parts aren't going. So just be okay with that, you know?
• 54:13
  Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.
• 54:15
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 54:15
  Speaker B: It's lots of self compassion. And the parts, they just really, they just want to be loved. All, all of the parts inside of us want to be loved. The exiled, the protectors, everything.
• 54:25
  Speaker C: So, yeah, just like humans, right? We all have the ultimate, same, ultimate goal.
• 54:32
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it's true. And the more that we can offer love to ourselves, the more capacity we have to offer it to others. So. And I want, I want a gay community where we are more loving, more kind to ourselves and to others.
• 54:46
  Speaker C: That's why I would love it, I think it, you know, to cast away the idea that it's cheesy. And I think, you know, love would solve a lot of problems in the world. And I think within our community, it would solve a lot of loneliness and hurt.
• 54:56
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 54:57
  Speaker C: You know, being kind doesn't. Doesn't take a lot.
• 55:00
  Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
• 55:03
  Speaker B: Well, thanks for joining us. It's been nice conversing with you for the last hour and hearing about your story and being able to share a bit of my story with you. So much love to you.
• 55:14
  Speaker C: Back at you. And, you know, let's. Let's say hi to someone out there and say, hope it works for you too. Listening. Yeah, keep going. Don't give up on yourself.
• 55:24
  Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And let us know, too, in the comments of Facebook or Facebook. Well, Facebook group, actually. Let us know. Facebook and the. The comments of. Of YouTube underneath this video. You know, what's your experience with trauma? Like? Did this episode really point out that, okay, maybe there is some trauma that I need to work with, that sort.
• 55:45
  Speaker C: Of thing or to clarify, I think, like, I. I hadn't really heard the term you mentioned, really, too. Too much of the c. Yeah. Something that I only knew PTSD before, really. So it's something worth looking into. And those books that you have are available and.
• 55:59
  Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.
• 56:01
  Speaker C: And call you for some help if you need it. On the.
• 56:03
  Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.
• 56:04
  Speaker B: I'm learning about ifs now.
• 56:06
  Speaker C: So it's.
• 56:06
  Speaker B: And I've been implementing bits and pieces in my clinical work. It's very powerful stuff. I love it.
• 56:12
  Speaker C: So hard. But worth it.
• 56:14
  Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.
• 56:15
  Speaker A: Yeah. Okay.
• 56:17
  Speaker B: All right. Catch you on the flip side.
• 56:19
  Speaker C: Sounds good.
• 56:20
  Speaker B: Thanks for tuning in, everybody.
• 56:22
  Speaker C: See ya.
• 56:23
  Speaker A: Bye.