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Why Overthinking Decisions Makes Us Less Happy · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: There's this idea that we're going to talk about today
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: on the podcast called maximizing versus satisfying. Here's how it
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: works in a nutshell. Maybe on the weekend, it took
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: you 20 minutes to choose something to watch. Maybe an
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: hour to choose something to watch. And then you didn't
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  Speaker 1: choose anything at all because you couldn't find the thing
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  Speaker 1: that was going to work best. Or maybe you've got
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  Speaker 1: older kids. They're thinking about their electives for next year.
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  Speaker 1: They've been talking over and over and over and over
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  Speaker 1: again about choosing the right electives. And now they can't
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  Speaker 1: stop thinking about the ones that they didn't pick. There's
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  Speaker 1: a name for it, there's research on it, and there's
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  Speaker 1: something you can do about it. Today, a conversation about
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  Speaker 1: how we and our children make decisions and how we
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  Speaker 1: can be satisfied with the decisions we make. It's next
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  Speaker 1: on the Happy Families Podcast. Hello, this is the Happy
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: Families Podcast, where you get real parenting solutions every single day.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: We're Justin and Kylie Coulson, parents of six children. We
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  Speaker 1: spent a lot of time, Kylie, trying to work out
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  Speaker 1: what the maximally satisfying number of children was that we
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  Speaker 1: should have. I always felt that two was probably enough,
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  Speaker 1: maybe three. But you felt that we would be maximally
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  Speaker 1: optimized and we would have the fullest and richest life
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  Speaker 1: if we had six. We compromised. We had six.
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  Speaker 2: Well, we had an eight-seater at the time. I don't see.
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  Speaker 1: You've got to maximize the space in the car. It's
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  Speaker 1: one of those things, isn't it? So some people are wired...
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  Speaker 1: to find the best option. And some are wired. I'm
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  Speaker 1: using the word wired. I don't know if it's the
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  Speaker 1: right word or not, but some people are wired to
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  Speaker 1: find an option that's good enough.
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  Speaker 2: So I have the perfect example. Yeah, go. You and
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  Speaker 2: I shop very differently.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, we do.
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  Speaker 2: I go to the shops, I have a budget, and
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  Speaker 2: I want to make sure that I have looked at
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  Speaker 2: every store and every conceivable possible option to make sure
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  Speaker 2: I'm maximizing my money. and getting the right fit. You, however,
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  Speaker 2: a week before our wedding, decided to go and buy
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  Speaker 2: a pair of shoes. And it wasn't until after the wedding,
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  Speaker 2: you realized that they were half a size too small.
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  Speaker 1: They were the wrong size.
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  Speaker 2: Because you literally just walked in and said, yeah, I'll
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  Speaker 2: take those.
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  Speaker 1: I'll take them. I've got a more up-to-date one. I
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  Speaker 1: needed some jeans. I haven't worn jeans for years, but
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  Speaker 1: I've decided that maybe I'm almost 51 now. And I
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  Speaker 1: feel youthful if I'm wearing jeans. Well, at least I'm
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  Speaker 1: trying to. I'm trying to feel youthful, but I don't actually.
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  Speaker 1: I feel really uncomfortable. But I walked into this jean
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  Speaker 1: store when I.
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  Speaker 2: Was- This trendy jean store. It wasn't just- Very trendy.
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  Speaker 1: When I was in Adelaide recently for a conference and
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  Speaker 1: I just said, I literally said to the guy, I'm
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  Speaker 1: after some jeans. I've got to literally be at the
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  Speaker 1: airport in 30 minutes and it's a 20 minute drive.
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  Speaker 1: You've got 10 minutes. I need some jeans. And he said, well,
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  Speaker 1: what style do you like? And he started running through
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  Speaker 1: all the styles. And I said, mate, I just need
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  Speaker 1: some jeans. And so he gave me a pair of jeans.
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  Speaker 1: They were one size too big. He gave me the
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  Speaker 1: size down. I can't breathe when I wear them, but
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  Speaker 1: I bought them because I didn't realize that until I
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  Speaker 1: got them home. I have a habit of just, it'll do.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: Satisfying is it'll do. Do you ever listen to the
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  Speaker 1: Hamish and Andy podcast?
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  Speaker 2: No.
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  Speaker 1: So Andy is a bit like you. Everything has to
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  Speaker 1: be in order. It has to be precise. It has
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  Speaker 1: to be done. Hamish, in his own words, is fast
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  Speaker 1: and loose. And I kind of feel like that's a
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  Speaker 1: bit mean. When it comes to shopping, just get in there,
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  Speaker 1: get it done, get out.
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  Speaker 2: It'll do.
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  Speaker 1: It'll be fine.
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  Speaker 2: You've actually even got to a point now where you
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  Speaker 2: just go in and find something you like and buy
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  Speaker 2: four of it.
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  Speaker 1: That's literally what I do. Yeah. Although I didn't buy
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  Speaker 1: four pairs of these jeans, which I'm grateful for because
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  Speaker 1: they're a little bit tight.
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  Speaker 2: They're a little bit tight.
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  Speaker 1: Although he promised me that once we've washed them a
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  Speaker 1: few times, they'll just sort of stretch because that's what
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  Speaker 1: they do apparently.
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  Speaker 2: Apparently.
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  Speaker 1: I don't know if I'm going to wear them often
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  Speaker 1: enough to get them to stretch.
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  Speaker 2: Do I just wash them for you three times? They're
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  Speaker 2: just a little bit tight.
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  Speaker 1: So there's this distinction that we need to talk about here,
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  Speaker 1: and we'll bring this back to parenting in a second.
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  Speaker 1: But when it relates to how happy we are in
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  Speaker 1: our lives as well, Herbert Simon was the guy that
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  Speaker 1: developed this idea in 1956. He coined this term, satisficing. Maximize,
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  Speaker 1: and it feels like a false word. I really get
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  Speaker 1: annoyed when I hear the word. It's jarring to me.
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  Speaker 1: But what he basically said is, if you're a maximizer,
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  Speaker 1: you search for the best available option. If you're a satisfier,
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  Speaker 1: you set a standard and then you take the first
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  Speaker 1: thing that clears the standard.
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  Speaker 2: You settle.
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  Speaker 1: That's right.
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  Speaker 2: Settle.
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  Speaker 1: Well, no, you don't just settle. There's got to be
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  Speaker 1: a standard that you're okay with. But for me, they're jeans. Okay,
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  Speaker 1: that's the standard. They're shoes. I don't wear them.
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  Speaker 2: That's me and TV. Right. Yes. I got to a
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  Speaker 2: point where I found like trying to find the perfect
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  Speaker 2: show or the perfect movie would mean that by the
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  Speaker 2: time I'd finally got to it, I was so exhausted
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  Speaker 2: from scrolling for at least an hour trying to find
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  Speaker 2: something that satisfied me that I didn't want to watch
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  Speaker 2: it anymore. So now I just click on something and
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  Speaker 2: if it looks semi-okay, I'm willing to give it a go.
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  Speaker 1: It's so funny you say that because everyone is both, right?
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  Speaker 1: When it comes to buying clothing, just The thing is,
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  Speaker 1: I'll never buy another pair of those jeans because I'm
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  Speaker 1: not happy with those jeans. But when I do find
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  Speaker 1: something I like, I literally go and buy four or
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  Speaker 1: five of them and then I'm done. I don't have
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  Speaker 1: to think about it again because I know that I
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  Speaker 1: like it. When it comes to movies, I'm a maximizer.
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  Speaker 1: If it's not a great show, if it's not a
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  Speaker 1: great movie, I'm not watching it. I'll walk out and say, well,
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  Speaker 1: there goes two hours that I'm never going to get back.
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  Speaker 1: That's my standard line.
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  Speaker 2: Hence, I don't choose to take you to the movies
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  Speaker 2: very often.
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  Speaker 1: So the question really is, is the person who searches
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  Speaker 1: harder better off? That's the real question.
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  Speaker 2: I think it depends.
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  Speaker 1: There's science. There's science. Today's a doctor's desk episode. I
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: haven't even mentioned the words doctor's desk today because I
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  Speaker 1: thought I could trick you into having a conversation about
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  Speaker 1: science without bringing up that it's a doctor's desk episode.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I don't know what the science says, but I'm
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  Speaker 2: going to suggest that it really depends. There are some
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  Speaker 2: decisions that you need to be a maximizer. You actually need, like,
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  Speaker 2: who are you going to marry? Yeah. You don't settle.
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  Speaker 2: You don't kind of pick the first thing that comes
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  Speaker 2: your way.
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  Speaker 1: But don't forget, a satisficer still sets a standard.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, but the standard's pretty low.
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  Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be. I'll be satisfied if I
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  Speaker 1: get everything on my list.
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  Speaker 2: But there are other things, like what am I going
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  Speaker 2: to watch tonight, where you don't need to spend as
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  Speaker 2: much energy and time on it.
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  Speaker 1: Let me share a couple of studies that I think
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  Speaker 1: are really useful here, and then we're going to turn
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  Speaker 1: this back to kids. So Sheena Iyengar, who is very
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  Speaker 1: well known for her research in choice psychology, like how
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  Speaker 1: we make our choices. And Barry Schwartz teamed up with
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  Speaker 1: one other researcher by the name of Wells. And in 2006,
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  Speaker 1: we're going back 20 years, but this is such a
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  Speaker 1: great study. Graduating students were tracked through a job search.
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  Speaker 1: And what they found was that maximizers... landed jobs that
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  Speaker 1: paid around about 20% more than satisficers. See, that's an important.
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  Speaker 1: The maximizers earned more money, but they were also more anxious.
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  Speaker 1: They were also more regretful and they were also less
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  Speaker 1: satisfied with the jobs that they got. So better outcome,
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  Speaker 1: but worse experience getting the outcome.
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  Speaker 2: Is that because money was the motivator?
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  Speaker 1: No, it was because they were maximizers because this research
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  Speaker 1: has been done in a variety of different ways.
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  Speaker 2: So they think that they found the perfect job and
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  Speaker 2: then they were dissatisfied with it?
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  Speaker 1: It's not just the outcome, it's also the process. So
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  Speaker 1: maximizers don't enjoy the process because it's even choosing a
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  Speaker 1: pair of jeans or choosing a top or a dress
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  Speaker 1: or whatever, or choosing a haircut, deciding where you're going
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  Speaker 1: to live. If you're a maximizer, I'm a maximizer when
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  Speaker 1: it comes to choosing where we're going to live. and
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  Speaker 1: this is quite personal, but we've lived with my dissatisfaction
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  Speaker 1: over our place of residence for the duration of our marriage.
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  Speaker 1: No matter where we've been, I'm like, oh, but it
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  Speaker 1: doesn't have this, or, but I'd really like that. Oh,
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  Speaker 1: I'd be really happy if we had a view or
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  Speaker 1: if we had a garage. We don't even have a
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  Speaker 1: garage where we live, right? And so I've constantly played
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  Speaker 1: that game. Whereas for you, you've always just been, you
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  Speaker 1: grew up literally next to the highway. Your parents had
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  Speaker 1: a house with one of those huge fences behind it
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  Speaker 1: because you were next to the highway. And So you've
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  Speaker 1: always just been completely satisfied with everywhere we live. You've
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  Speaker 1: got a totally different orientation towards it. And therefore, you're
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  Speaker 1: happier than me.
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  Speaker 2: I'm just happy because that's my house. It's mine.
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  Speaker 1: So how do we raise a kid who can make
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  Speaker 1: the kinds of decisions where they decide something and then
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  Speaker 1: live with satisfaction in the decision? That's our Doctor's Desk
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  Speaker 1: episode with the parental application right after this break. We're back.
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  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. And today, maximizing versus satisfying.
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  Speaker 2: I'm really hoping that from today's discussion, you'll learn some
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  Speaker 2: really important things.
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  Speaker 1: You want me to learn? What do you want me
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  Speaker 1: to learn from this?
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  Speaker 2: To be grateful for what you have.
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  Speaker 1: This is not a podcast about gratitude. This is a
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  Speaker 1: podcast about satisficing and maximizing.
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  Speaker 2: Stop maximizing.
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  Speaker 1: You're the maximizer. Come on. Come on. We've already talked
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  Speaker 1: about your maximizing when it comes to clothing.
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  Speaker 2: I don't do that anymore. I just take you shopping
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  Speaker 2: and you walk in and I try something on and
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  Speaker 2: she's going to get that.
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  Speaker 1: We had a great experience when we went away on
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: our last quarterly getaway where you needed some clothes. You
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  Speaker 1: wanted to buy a dress. And I don't know what
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  Speaker 1: it is, but when we go away, I feel abundant.
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  Speaker 1: We don't have the kind of cash to do what
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  Speaker 1: I do. always want to do on these quarterly getaways,
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  Speaker 1: but we walked into a shop and you tried on
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  Speaker 1: four dresses and I said, we'll take them. And you
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  Speaker 1: look fabulous in all of them. See, I'm a satisficer.
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  Speaker 1: They're all fine. You look great. Let's move on. Why
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  Speaker 1: do we have, why does it, we don't have to
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  Speaker 1: spend four hours shopping for one dress. Let's spend one
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  Speaker 1: hour and buy four dresses and get out of here.
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  Speaker 1: And you've had some. many comments on those dresses.
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  Speaker 2: I have.
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  Speaker 1: And they were on special because it was stock take time.
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  Speaker 1: I feel like I was.
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  Speaker 2: Anyway.
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  Speaker 1: Satisfying. That's, that's, There are four things that we need
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  Speaker 1: to highlight here related to parenting. First one's actually more
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  Speaker 1: related to us than the kids, but this is what
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  Speaker 1: it takes when it comes to helping our kids to
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  Speaker 1: make decisions and feel good about them. Number one, I
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  Speaker 1: think we need to say it out loud.
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  Speaker 2: Say what out loud?
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  Speaker 1: Say something like, that'll do. I'm done looking. I'm satisfied.
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  Speaker 1: I don't have to maximize. I'm satisfied. So literally, narrate
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  Speaker 1: a legitimate, satisficing decision over a maximizing decision. Maybe you're
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: booking a holiday and you just say, you know what?
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  Speaker 1: This holiday looks fine and I don't have to check
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  Speaker 1: another 11 websites. I don't have to go through booking.com
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  Speaker 1: or Airbnb for 15 more locations that we could possibly stay.
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  Speaker 1: I found one. It meets the minimum standard. Let's grab it.
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  Speaker 1: It'll do. I'm like this with restaurants. So if we're
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: Googling for a place to eat because we're in a
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: new town or city, so long as it's like a
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  Speaker 1: 4.6 or above, I don't care. I'll just eat there.
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: If it's less than about 4.5.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, but then we talk to all of our friends
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: who get these amazing holiday deals that we never get.
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  Speaker 2: We pay like full price.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I know.
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  Speaker 2: Every time.
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: I know. Can we talk about parenting again?
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: Sure, let's talk about parenting.
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  Speaker 1: Because now I'm feeling like I should be a maximizer
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  Speaker 1: and not a satisfizer. Second thing.
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  Speaker 2: I think we might need therapy after today.
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  Speaker 1: Second thing. This one's very much about the kids. Shrink
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  Speaker 1: the choice before they make it. What do I mean
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  Speaker 1: by that? Instead of saying, what do you feel like
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: for dinner? Just give them two or three options. Tonight
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  Speaker 1: we can have this, this or this. What would you rather?
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: Tonight we can have this. Right. Yeah, fair enough. After-school activities.
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  Speaker 1: We've got these two that we're going to be doing
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: to choose between or these three that you can choose between.
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  Speaker 1: We don't have the whole brochure. So fewer options means
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  Speaker 1: decisions that you can feel good about afterwards. The research
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  Speaker 1: actually shows that when there are more choices– You tend
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  Speaker 1: to be less satisfied with the decision that you made
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  Speaker 1: and you don't enjoy making the decision as much.
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  Speaker 2: That's why when we sit down to play cards, I
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: just pull out five crowns.
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: Right. That's why I don't play cards. There's another one
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: that I thought of and that is that you just,
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: I think that we just use the right language. So
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  Speaker 1: good enough is a phrase that I think is really
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: useful here. Just make a decision that they made. You
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: chose that. You're happy with it. It'll do. If you
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: say it'll do, that sounds negative. But if you say, well,
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  Speaker 1: you chose it and this is a good choice. We've
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: enjoyed this. To me, that's enough. We're just talking about
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  Speaker 1: feeling like we've satisfied the minimum. I like it. More
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  Speaker 1: than anything, though, I think that there's great conversations that
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: you can have around satisficing and maximizing when it comes
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  Speaker 1: to regret. Do you regret how long you spent looking
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: for that dress? You spent five hours looking for that dress. Uh,
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: what else could you have done with the day? Yeah,
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: but you did spend five hours looking for the dress.
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: What else could you have done with the day? Do
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: you feel that was, or do you feel like it
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: was the right choice to maximize today? Do you know
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  Speaker 1: what I mean? Like having, having the conversation, are we
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  Speaker 1: going too hard here? Am I being too finicky about it? I,
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  Speaker 1: to me, to me, this, this is a conversation about
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  Speaker 1: how we make our decisions. And psychologically, the data shows
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: that if we can be more oriented towards satisfying, we're happier.
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  Speaker 2: Um, I just think this is a conversation about being
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: grateful for what you've got. That's what it actually feels
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  Speaker 2: like to me. Fair enough.
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: Fair enough. Here's what the research.
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  Speaker 2: Because if you're grateful for what you've got, then you're
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: not constantly looking for the next best thing.
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  Speaker 1: The data seems to point to something similar. Number one,
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: if you can decide what's going to be good enough
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: before you start the search, then once you find it,
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: you can stop the search. So having clarity around what
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: you're looking for is useful. Second thing that the research
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: says is that if you're making really big decisions, like
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: you talked about marriage, do the full search. Well, maybe
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: not the full search because you'll be on the apps
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  Speaker 1: forever and you probably won't get married as a result.
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: But most decisions don't require a full search. Like we've
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: got a daughter who's trying to make up her mind
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: about university decisions for next year at the moment. That's
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: a big decision and she needs to search thoroughly and
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: consider her options. Although it's not the end of the
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: world if she gets it wrong. But buying a jumper,
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: or buying a new pair of shorts, not quite as
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: big a decision. And the last thing that I think
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: is worth kind of playing around with is just ask
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: yourself whether you're still looking because you want a better
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: answer or because deciding is uncomfortable and you're not comfortable
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: making a decision.
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: I actually think that that's probably more my problem than
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: about maximizing. As a mom, so often we put everyone
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: else's needs before our own. And for me, I often
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: go from store to store looking and I just can't
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: justify spending the money on myself, whereas I wouldn't flinch
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: if it was for the kids. I'd just do it.
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  Speaker 2: And so you end up kind of wasting the day
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  Speaker 2: away wishing but not actually making a decision.
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: Just got to satisfy.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: Well, I'll just take you shopping next time.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: I love it.
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: You'll just say, buy them all.
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: Pretty much. And then regret it.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: Then I do end up regretting it and thinking I
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: should have maximized. Although sitting in boutique after boutique, I'm
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: saying boutique, you don't go to boutiques like clothing store
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: after clothing store, DFO outlet after DFO outlet. It can
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: be pretty heavy going. I don't enjoy it. I'd rather
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: live with the regret on the credit card than the
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: regret of wasting a day in a retail outlet. Hey,
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: thanks so much for listening. A little bit different today,
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: but we hope that we gave you a laugh and
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: also something to think about. Next time you've got to
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: make a decision. The Happy Families podcast, audio and sound
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: production by Justin Roulon from Bridge Media. Mim Hammonds looks
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: after our admin and other support. If you'd like more
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: info to make your family happier, visit happyfamilies.com.au.