Shows / The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC) interviews the world's greatest venture capitalists with prior guests including Sequoia's Doug Leone and Benchmark's Bill Gurley. Once per week, 20VC Host, Harry Stebbings is also joined by one of the great founders of our time with prior founder episodes from Spotify's Daniel Ek, Linkedin's Reid Hoffman, and Snowflake's Frank Slootman. If you would like to see more of The Twenty Minute VC (20VC), head to www.20vc.com for more information on the podcast, show notes…
Episodes
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Why Market Is More Important Than Team, The 4 Key Roles of A Board Member & Why Founders Get Market Sizing So Wrong with Rory O'Driscoll, Founding Partner @ Scale Venture Partners
Rory O'Driscoll is a founding member and Partner at Scale Venture Partners. An active investor for the past 20 years, Rory is focused on early-in-revenue…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: a16z's Balaji Srinivasan on Why There Is A Financial Incentive For Truth In VC & Why The Best VCs Invest In Founder To Make Them Richer Than Themselves
Balaji Srinivasan is the Founder & CEO @ 21.co, the company that believes for bitcoin to succeed we need to build the full stack infrastructure for bitcoin…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Venture Capital Is One Hell Of A Drug, What VCs Expect From Founders Once They Have Raised & Why Customers Validate Your Business Not Venture Capital with Eric Paley, Managing Partner @ Founder Collective
Eric Paley is the Managing Partner at Founder Collective, one of the world's most successful seed funds with investments in the likes of Uber, Hunch, Makerbot…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Data Collective's Matt Ocko on The Dark Side Of AI & What Happens When 3-4m People Become Unemployed Overnight
Matt Ocko is the Co-Managing Partner and Co-Founder @ Data Collective and has over 3 decades of experience as a tech entrepreneur and VC and has made…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Ed Cooke, Grandmaster of Memory on What Is Missing In EdTech? What Does The Integration Of AI & Education Look Like & The Core Pillars Of Optimising Memory
Ed Cooke is the Founder & CEO @ Memrise, the app that makes learning languages joyful and they have funding from some of the best including Lerer Hippeau…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Investing In Sectors That Were Cool 2 Years Ago, What Accel's Facebook Fund Taught a Generation of LPs & Why LPs Need A New Discovery Process with Paul Martino, Founding Partner @ Bullpen Capital
Paul Martino is a Co-Founder and General Partner @ Bullpen Capital, the fund that finds overlooked companies by understanding biases in venture capital. Paul…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Rick Marini on Lessons Leant From Naval Ravikant, Why You Need To Make 30 Investments Before You Know What You Are Doing & Why You Have To Earn The Right To Good Dealflow
Rick Marini is a serial entrepreneur and angel investor with over 45 investments in early stage startups. Some of Rick's investments include the likes of…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: VC / Founder Fit with 3 Things Founders & VCs Must Agree Pre-Investment & Why Having No Company Budgets Creates Internal Entrepreneurs with Jay Desai, Founder & CEO @ PatientPing
Jay Desai is Co-Founder and CEO of PatientPing, a company that connects health care providers across the country with real-time notifications to seamlessly…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Who Will Own The Data? Is There An Incumbency Advantage in AI? When Will Artificial Super Intelligence Come To The Forefront with Rudina Seseri, Founder and Managing Director @ Glasswing Ventures
Rudina Seseri is Founder and Managing Partner of Glasswing Ventures, Boston's own AI focussed fund. Prior to Glasswing, Rudina was a Partner at Fairhaven…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Binary's Justin Caldbeck on Specialisation Being Key To Success In VC, The Biggest Problem In VC Today and Why The Future Is A Moneyless Barter Economy
Justin Caldbeck is a Co-Founder and Managing Partner at Binary Capital, one of Silicon Valley's leading early stage funds focussed on the consumer space with…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: CEO Whisperer Jerry Colonna on How Investors Mimic Aggressive Behaviour To Cover Insecurity and Why Vulnerability is Key To Success In VC
Jerry Colonna is a Founder @ Reboot, the coaching company that helps some of the world's greatest entrepreneurs and investors with the internal ups and downs…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Why You Have To Be A Good Long Term Actor To Succeed in VC & How Owning An Esports Team Could Be A $Bn Outcome with Clinton Foy, General Partner @ Crosscut Ventures
Clinton Foy is General Partner @ Crosscut Ventures, one of LA's leading VC funds. Prior to Crosscut, Clinton was COO, @ Square Enix, a $2 billion video game…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Social Capital's Mamoon Hamid on Disrupting The Venture Model & Advancing Humanity By Solving The World's Toughest Problems
Mamoon Hamid is a Co-Founder and General Partner at Social Capital, a firm he co-founded in 2011 with the mission to transform society by using technology to…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Hootsuite's Ryan Holmes on Optimising Productivity in Meetings, Creating An Ownership Culture & Lessons From Running A Pizzeria!
Ryan Holmes is the founder and CEO of Hootsuite. He started the company in 2008 and has helped grow it into the world's most widely used social relationship…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Why You Don't Have To Have Operational Experience To Be A Good VC, Why There Is No Optimal Stage To Invest & Why VCs Should Focus on Reputation Ahead of Cash On Cash Returns with Lyon Wong, General Partner @ Spectrum 28
Lyon Wong is the Founding General Partner @ Spectrum 28, a $170m Silicon Valley fund that invests in companies who leverage data and computation to create and…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: More $ Raised This Year Than The Past 15, War Chests Being Built & Decline In First Time Funds: So What The Heck Is Happening In Venture with Beezer Clarkson, Managing Director @ Sapphire Ventures
Beezer Clarkson is Managing Director @ Sapphire Ventures where she leads Sapphire's investments in venture funds domestically and internationally. Prior to…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Why Adaptability Is Key To Fundraising, Why Supply Is Always The First Priority In Marketplaces & Why Sometimes You Have To Hire Fast & Fire Fast with Nav Athwal, Founder & CEO @ RealtyShares
Nav Athwal is the Founder & CEO @ RealtyShares, a curated marketplace connecting real estate developers and operators with investors across the country…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Greenfield Opportunities For Machine Learning, Why Massive Corporates Finally See It's Potential & Why VC's Investment Decision Making Process Needs To Change with James Cham, Partner @ Bloomberg Beta
James Cham is a Partner @ Bloomberg Beta and one the pre-eminent thinkers in the machine learning space. Prior to Bloomberg, James was a Principal @ Trinity…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Investing Lessons From Fred Wilson & Brad Feld and Why Fundraising Is An Art & Not Everyone Can Be An Artist with Howard Lindzon Founder @ Stocktwits & Managing Partner @ Social Leverage
Howard Lindzon is the Managing Partner @ Social Leverage, where he has made investments in the likes of Angellist, Datafox, previous guest Robinhood, Rent.com…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: How You Can Learn To Be A Great Business Leader & Why All Successful Business Must Be Loved or Needed with Moisey Uretsky, Founder @ Digital Ocean
Moisey Uretsky is the Co-Founder & Chief Product Officer @ Digital Ocean, the second largest and fastest growing cloud computing platform, with more than…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Why Many VCs Fail To Raise, Why LP Compensation Is A Massive Problem & Why Fund of Funds Will Become More Prominent with Lindel Eakman, Managing Director @ Foundry Group
Lindel Eakman is a Managing Director @ Foundry Group and is a nationally recognized leader in the LP community having successfully managed the private…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Floodgate's Mike Maples on What Makes Category Kings, What Most Venture Funds Do Wrong When Hiring & 'The Dance Of Product Market Fit'
Mike Maples is a Founding Partner @ Floodgate, one of the leading early-stage venture funds in the valley. Mike has made investments in the likes of Twitter…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: What Makes A Great marketplace Founder, The Key Metrics Marketplace Success Is Centred On & 3 Ways To Prove To Investors You Are A Domain Expert with Karthik Sridharan, Founder & CEO @ Kinnek
Karthik Sridharan is the Founder & CEO @ Kinnek, the platform which empowers small business owners to take control of their purchasing operations. Kinnek have…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: The Secret To Building Pattern Recognition, Why MBA Does Not Always Equal Great Founder & What Are The Right Reasons To Start A Company With Hardi Meybaum, General Partner @ Matrix Partners
Hardi Meybaum is a General Partner @ Matrix Partners and similar to Josh Hardi is a natural born entrepreneur. Prior to becoming a VC Hardi was a Founder of…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Why The Best CEO's Are The Best Capital Allocators, How You Can Build A Business In A Space You Are Not Passionate About & When Is The Right Time To Put The Pedal To The Metal with Josh Hannah, General Partner @ Matrix Ventures
Josh Hannah is a General Partner @ Matrix Partners where he has led investments in the likes of Canva, Quora and Huddle just to name a few. However, Josh…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Why The Evolution of Digital Media Presents A Multi $Bn Opportunity with Brit Morin, Founder & CEO @ Brit + Co
Brit Morin is the Founder & CEO @ Brit + Co the online media and e-commerce platform that provides tools to teach, inspire, and enable creativity among women…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Dave Morin on Why Building A Fund Is Like A Company, Why Venture Is A Craft & The Journey To Establish Slow Ventures
Dave Morin is Founder & Partner at Slow Ventures, the leading valley venture fund with investments in the likes of Slack, Pinterest, Evernote, NextDoor…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: The 3 Things LPs Want To See From VCs & Why The Table Stakes For VCs Is Higher Than Ever with Judith Elsea, Co-Founder @ Weathergage Capital
Judith Elsea is a Co-Founder @ Weathergage Capital, one of the world's leading fund of funds with over $950m AUM. Prior to Wealthergage, Judith was Chief…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Intercom's Eoghan McCabe on What Makes A Truly Great CEO & What Founders Should Look For In Their Investors
Eoghan McCabe is the CEO and co-founder of Intercom. The customer communications platform that has taken the SaaS world by storm in the last few years with…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Why Valuation Is A Stupid Concept, VC Is Ripe For Disruption & Not All LPs Are Made Equal with Michael Skok, Founding Partner @ Underscore VC
Michael Skok is a Founding Partner @ Underscore VC. Michael started his first software business as a teenager, spent 21 years as an entrepreneur where he…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Index's Ilya Fushman on The Key Lessons From Scaling Dropbox To 400m Users, Is Excessive Amounts Of Capital Driving Valuations Too High In The Valley & Why Venture Is Like Being On A Swim Team Not A Soccer Team
Ilya Fushman is a Partner at Index Ventures where he has made investments in the likes of Slack, Intercom, Dropbox and Optimizely. Prior to joining Index, Ilya…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Eero's Nick Weaver on Why You Have To Grow One Stage Ahead of Where Your Business Is At and Why If You Want A Great Customer Experience, You Have To Own All The Parts
Nick Weaver is the Founder & CEO @ Eero. The company that makes your wifi hyper fast, super simple and brilliantly efficient. Prior to founding Eero, Nick was…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Do VC's Really Hustle Enough? The Takeaways From Watching Twitter Scale From 30 to 2,500 & Why Chris Sacca Is Like Yoda with Ryan Sarver, Partner @ Redpoint
Ryan Sarver is a Partner @ Redpoint where he focuses on early stage consumer startups. He sits on the board at Luxe, where he led the seed and A rounds, and…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Redpoint's Tom Tunguz on Winning with Data: How To Gain A Competitive Advantage & Dominate Markets with Data and 5 Steps To Create A Data Driven Company
Tom Tunguz is a Partner @ Redpoint Ventures, where he has invested in the likes of Axial, Dremio, Expensify, Electric Imp, Looker, and ThredUP. Tomasz is also…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Giphy's Adam Leibsohn on From Being Homeless To Founding a Multi Hundred Million Dollar Startup & The Challenges of Creating One of The World's Largest Search Engine
Adam Leibsohn is the Founder and COO @ Giphy, the company that brings you joy and laughter through gifs. Earlier this year, Giphy raised a phenomenal $55m…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: What Is Wrong With The VC Industry, Why VC Is A Customer Service Game and Why Car Ownership Will Be A Thing Of The Past with Brett DeMarrais, Partner @ Ludlow Ventures
Brett DeMarrais is a Partner @ Ludlow Ventures, who have investments in the likes of ProductHunt, Sprig, AngelList and uBeam. Prior to joining Ludlow, Brett…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Lerer Hippeau's Ben Lerer on 'Investing With Imagination', Strategies To Avoid Fomo & Develop Pattern Recognition As An Investor and Why We Have Seen The Rise of Direct To Consumer Business & Will This Continue With Further M&A
Ben Lerer is a Managing Partner at Lerer Hippeau Ventures and co-founder & CEO of Thrillist Media Group. Ben was among Ernst & Young's 2013 Entrepreneur of the…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: How To Win The Strategic Process Of Fundraising and Optimising Co-Founder Relationships and Break Ups with Kathryn Minshew, Founder & CEO @ The Muse
Kathryn Minshew is the Founder & CEO @ The Muse, named to Forbes' 30 Under 30 in Media and Inc.'s 15 Women to Watch in Tech. Before founding The Muse, Kathryn…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Why Great Founders Are Both Visionary & Stubborn, The Investment Mindset Shift From Angel To VC & How To React When The 'S*** Hits The Fan?' with Jesse Middleton, General Partner @ Flybridge Capital Partners
Jesse Middleton is a General Partner @ Flybridge Capital Partners. Prior to joining Flybridge, Jesse was an early executive at WeWork, one of the fastest…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Science Inc's Peter Pham on Why The Battle Between Entrepreneurs & VCs Is Unfair, How To Even The Playing Field & How To Tell When A VC Really Is Interested
Peter Pham is a Co-Founder at Science, the startup studio that helps incubate companies co-building them alongside CEO's, with recent companies like Dollar…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Maximising Engagement and Retention on Mobile & Why There Should Always Be Availability To A Free Product with Sean Brecker, CEO @ Headspace
Sean Brecker is the CEO @ Headspace where he is the driving force behind all financial and commercial matters including overseeing the company's growth of it's…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Why Raising A Fund Is Like Raising A $25m Seed Round with No Product & Why Not All LP Money Is Equal with Chad Byers, General Partner @ Susa Ventures
Chad Byers is a General Partner @ Susa Ventures and very exciting news, Susa last week announced the raise of Susa II, a new $50m fund, testament to the…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Upfront Ventures' Greg Bettinelli on Testing For Founder 'Grit' & What It Takes To Build A Successful Consumer Brand Today
Greg Bettinelli is a Partner at Upfront Ventures where he specialises in businesses at the juncture of retail and technology. Prior to Upfront, Greg was the…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: How Entrepreneurs Should Manage Their Board & Why Time Constraints Are Always The Key To Progress with Paul Berberian @ Sphero
Paul Berberian is the CEO of Orbotix, the company that created Sphero, the robotic ball controlled from your smartphone. They have investment from our friends…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Why Hardware Is Actually Software Wrapped In Plastic & "Of Course Hardware Is Hard, Everything Is Hard" with Ben Einstein, Founder & General Partner @ Bolt VC
Ben Einstein is Founder and General Partner @ Bolt, Bolt is a fund designed to address the unique needs of early-stage startups at the intersection of hardware…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: 500 Startups' Dave McClure on Whether Unicorns Are Necessary For Venture Returns & Why Ownership Is Not The Math To Think About When Investing
Dave McClure is the founding partner of 500 Startups, who have made over 1500 investments in the likes of Twilio, SendGrid, Intercom and Makerbot just to name…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Wealthfront's Adam Nash on What Makes Great CEO's & Why Humans Suck At Investing
Adam Nash is the President and CEO of Wealthfront, where he is on a mission to put the client first and change the bad practices of the financial services…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Dollar Shave Club's Series A & B Lead Investor, David Pakman on The Requirements For A Successful Subscription Business & Why A Lot of Investors Do Not Like Consumer
David Pakman is a Partner at Venrock and the man behind Venrock's leading of the Series A and B rounds for Dollar Shave Club. Prior to Venrock David spent 12…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Data Collective's Matt Ocko on Why "All Fund Size Models Are Wrong" and The Lifecycle of Current Venture Funds Is Inefficient?
Matt Ocko is the Co-Managing Partner and Co-Founder @ Data Collective and has over 3 decades of experience as a tech entrepreneur and VC and has made…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Turning Down Apple & Getting Funded By Chamath @ Social Capital with Dhananja Jayalath, Co-Founder & CEO @ Athos
Dhananja Jayalath is the Co-Founder & CEO @ Athos, creating the new standard for fitness by changing the way we train the human body. Athos have funding from…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: From Seed To Series A: The Due Diligence, The Valuations, The Investment Decision Making Process with Steve Schlafman @ RRE Ventures
Steve Schlafman is an early stage investor @ RRE Ventures, where he specialises on marketplaces, mobile services, and hardware. Steve is responsible for RRE's…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: YC's Justin Kan on The 3 Qualities All Successful Investors Have & Why 'VCs Don't Really Do Any Real Work'?
Justin Kan is a Partner @ world renowned, Y Combinator. The birthplace of the likes of Airbnb, Reddit, Dropbox, Stripe, Zenefits and many more incredible…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Why People Should Never Be Surprised If Fired, Subscription E-Commerce Is Hot & People Never Give True and Direct Feedback with Amir Elaguizy, Co-Founder @ Cratejoy
Amir Elaguizy is the Founder & CEO @ YC backed, Cratejoy, the website builder and backend for subscription e-commerce stores. Cratejoy have funding from the…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Mythbuster: Is Mobile Dying? Is AR/VR Overhyped? Is The Excitement Around Bots Justified with Sean Flynn, Partner @ Shasta Ventures
Sean Flynn is a Managing Partner @ Shasta Ventures where he invests in mobile-enabled consumer Internet and enterprise software companies. Sean has led…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Semil Shah on Why The Most Important Thing An Investor Can Do Is Attract Follow On & The Fundamentals of VC Branding
Semil Shah is the founder of Haystack, an early stage investment firm now investing out of it's third fund, with previous investments being Instacart…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Unity 3D's David Helgason on Building a $bn Business, Getting Funded By Sequoia and Powering The Pokemon Revolution
David Helgason is the Founder and Board Member @ Unity 3D. The company that recently announced a new $181m Series C, valuing the company at $1.5bn. Unity's…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Why The Whole Industry Is Backward Looking, The Best Funds Are Entrepreneur Led and Venture Is All About Access with Alex Bangash, Founder @ Trusted Insight
Alex Bangash is a Managing Director @ Rumson Group where he helps his clients invest in some of the best performing funds around the world. Alex has done just…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Flybridge's Jeff Bussgang on Why It Is Not All About Unit Economics & Why VCs Are Big Data Decision Makers
Jeff Bussgang is a Co-Founder and General partner @ Flybridge Capital, where has made investments in numerous incredible companies including 2 former guests of…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: Why Every Employee Should Re-Apply For Their Job Every Year & The Strategies To Prepare For A Successful Fundraise with Kyle Hill, Founder & CEO @ HomeHero
Kyle Hill is the Co-Founder & CEO @ HomeHero, one of the largest providers of non-medical home care in California. HomeHero has provided over 1 million hours…
The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch20VC: USV's Brad Burnham on Co-Founding USV with Fred Wilson, What They Look For In Potential Partners & Whether We Are Entering a Period of Consolidation or Expansion
Brad Burnham is the Co-Founder & Managing Partner @ Union Square Ventures. I feel Brad is far better described by his partner Fred Wilson, than I ever could so…