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The Surprising Shift from No to Yes in Education · Hart & Hustle Podcast

• Efrain: We're back with the Heart and Hustle Podcast. We got Mr. David in the building. David, I love this sign. How can we get to yes? What does that even mean? David Liss: What does it even mean? Well, we say no too often. And I d you know, it's kind of a leadership mantra, especially with technology. we'll probably talk a little bit about technology, but in so many different technology organizations, something gets asked of us and we just go, Nope, we can't do that. And I feel like there's just we're begging for more questions. And so my team knows that we don't typically say no. What we do is we start asking more questions because a lot of times It's just that we're not asking the right questions. And so somebody will come to us and say, Hey, I need to do this. And if that has some kind of cybersecurity implications or whatever, we just simply say, Well, what is it that you're trying to get done? And then we try to figure out a way to get to yes. Every now and then we do get to a no, but most of the time we figure a way around. Efrain: That's some good leadership skills right there, man. David Liz, let the people know David Liss: Okay. Efrain: exactly what is your role and what is the organization that you're representing today. David Liss: I'm representing Nixa Public Schools in southwestern Missouri, and I am the CISO. A lot of people say, Don't you mean the CISO? And no, I have a weird like combination of skill sets. I am the chief strategy and information officer. And those in my business would usually look at the S's security, but strategy and information. So I do all of our information technology and all of our strategic planning. Efrain: And how does one get there, man? I mean, you really we talked about it, you've really been in this space of passion and purpose and pouring into others. What brings you to this space? David Liss: I have been in education for most of my career. Other than my my Marine Corps career, I've worked for one college, one university, so in higher education, and then I came to K-12. And so it's kind of been this passion of putting together technology with education, and it's really a service to those educators and to the students that are learning. when I came over to K twelve, it just hit my heart a a little bit more. second or or I should say post secondary is a little bit different. But but really being able to have an effect on kids in the classroom and you know of course seeing my kids go through and now my kids are through and now my grandkids are there. But just seeing what public education can offer to students that may not have opportunities otherwise is a fantastic thing. It's part of something I feel called to. Efrain: I don't know if it's happening where you guys are at, but here in Orlando, Orange County is is getting a big hit, right? They've closed seven schools, they've had to I guess their budget is not decreasing, but the amount of kids are decreasing. They think they've seen seven thousand kids shortage. a lot of kids either going to private school, they're going to home school. David Liss: Yeah. Efrain: Are you guys experiencing some of that same thing? David Liss: We're experiencing some of it. homeschool is really I'm gonna say big-ish here in the Midwest. and I think a lot of it is due to we are the Bible Belt. And there are a lot of families who feel like their children in a public setting get a little bit more too much exposure to what we would call the real world. But it's not always that reason, but it's a little bit more. Tied to having some more control over the education that the kids get. It's not a high population, but it's still a segment. And then private education is definitely something that is getting to be more popular. it is different, I would say, depending on what school district you go to. And so what ends up happening to some of the school districts that are not quite just not quite. Up there, we're we rank pretty much in the top 10 in the state of Missouri. And I feel very fortunate for that. But for those schools that struggle, it's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy that as they struggle, then if families move out, then they get less tax money, which means they can pay teachers less, which means you can get, you know, less qualified teachers, which means you offer, you know, not as good education. And so it kind of spirals that way. And I'm seeing that happen in some of our more rural areas. I don't know if that's specifically what's happening in your area, but that's that's what I would say is the impact here. And then also more of a shift from state sponsored education to locally sponsored, I should say sponsored, but where the dollars are. And I think it's just a part of the economy that the state is not funding public education like they used to. It's falling on The local taxpayer. And when that happens, then they start to see, well, if I'm gonna be paying for it, then I'm gonna take it, have my different options. Efrain: Got it. Yeah, I think for us, man, it's huge huge county and we're seeing development happening in other places. So what happens is that, you know, parents and and are moving elsewhere and now it's just we don't have as many students in in a in a I would say in a in a school. So what do you do? They close those schools down. Now what do we do with those properties? Very interesting, man. I sat here actually through Chat GPT really wanting to understand why is that's this happening, right? For me, I just thought it was that we as society are having less kids, right? that people are maybe going into that homeschooling cause there's those grants and those stipends for homeschool and stuff like that. But yeah, man, as I'm figuring it out, it's just that our Orange County, the county is just expanding so wide. So some of those schools that were in different areas that no longer are attending because parents are finding elsewhere, especially I think now you can pick the schools you want to go to. So parents like my even myself, I was supposed to go to one high school, I ended up being bust out to a different high school. So I think it's just kind of a mix, man. But I love that you being in the strategy see, you cannot panic. You gotta pivot. So how how how how do you think people can pivot through some of this? David Liss: Well, I will say that you you definitely from the strategy standpoint, you have to look at what society or the community that you're serving, what it is that they find of value. And I will say that education in and of itself, I'm gonna speak in really broad terms, but I'm gonna say when I went to school, I learned what I was taught. And now we really look At an individualized education, everybody on their own track. And so technology has been able to help us with that because we are looking at individualizing education per child based on you know what your abilities are and the track, you know, where what your interests are and the way you want to go. And public schools are having to respond to that because when you get to more privatized education through Well, I would just say tuition and things like that, they can kind of control who's coming to the school and they can say who's in and who's out. Where in public school we accept everybody. And so as as you take those that have money or whatever, and those go to private school, then we're left with less money to educate you know, those kids who don't have the ability to go to those schools. So we still try to keep up with those trends of individualizing education, the most most that we can. And technology's played a big role in that with one-to-one technology and the technologies that fall within that. Efrain: When you say technology, I can't I can't imagine you're talking about AI because it's still so new. I know some some David Liss: Yeah. Efrain: counties are are still actually I think we are going to be implementing them with a parents' consent. Is that kind of similar to what you guys are kind of talking about in technology wise? David Liss: Well, we're rolling out AI really slowly. I would say that it's it's something that we know here. The genie's out of the bottle. I mean, we're, you know, you have to deal with it. And it's what the district is responsible for providing. We know almost every kid, you know, of a certain grade level, and I don't know, it's moving down more and more, but maybe fifth or sixth, seventh grade, something like that, they all have phones. So they're using AI, whether they have access to it through their school devices or not. But that is to say, it's the same type of thing, is those kids who do have that have that advantage and the kids who don't. And if they're using it through us and we don't provide AI, then they don't have that. But I don't I wouldn't say that AI is driving the conversation that I am. It's more equity in technology access. And so whether that be internet access, access to a computer, et cetera, we are now going into somewhere around our tenth year of providing one-to-one technology. That means every student has a device. Now we may get into this later or we may not, but not that doesn't mean that they're on their devices all the time. Just means they have access to those devices. Means testing is easier, knowing where kids are, being able to again individe individualize that instruction towards where an individual is at. those types of things, it's those pedagogies and how we use the tools are what helps us with that, but not just AI in general. Efrain: I mean, funny you say that because I think I was talking to somebody earlier and they mentioned that every kid has a laptop. So it's like we just keep on laptop for so many hours a day and when it's time for lunch it's kind of the only break. But you're saying that's not the case. It's just making sure they have access David Liss: It's Efrain: to it. David Liss: correct. And I'm going to say that's not the case in Nixa. I would say that in many of the schools, we're actually part of a consortium that we go, it's the Eastern States Consortium, and we go around to other school districts, and we there's varying levels. But as one of the executive administrators, I get to go around with the board with our board walkthroughs. And I would I would tend to tell you that as we walk into Classrooms, I'm gonna throw a general percentage of I see kids on their devices during instruction and outside of instruction. And when I say outside instruction, let me explain that. That would mean like I finish my assignment early. We're maybe working in pods. Okay, now I'm on, you know, I get to use my device. It's not gaming, but it might be what we call edutainment. It's those kind of games that really help educate as well. Efrain: Yeah. David Liss: I'm gonna say kids are on there maybe 20% of the time. We see a lot of writing, a lot like handwriting, kinesthetic learning, worksheets, things like that, because we know that that's important to the process. And so I'm going to say in our school district, we don't have a tremendous amount of screen time, which I think is a benefit because the states are starting to legislate that. I saw something recently that the na the that at the national level they're wanting to start regulating screen time. That is something that we already fall within those parameters. So I'm not worried about for us. But in generality, across the nation, I don't know really what it is. So is it something to be concerned about if it's going on at a high level in in the in districts? Yes, something to worry about. But I would just say that I feel really good about where we are here in Nixon. Efrain: How how big is the the district? David Liss: We have about sixty seven hundred students. And kind of to your point, we were growing up to almost seven thousand. At one point, we were one of the fastest growing counties in the state of Missouri. And we actually have regressed back a couple of hundred. We got up to about sixty nine hundred, getting close to seven thousand. And we were stable at around sixty-seven to sixty-seven fifty. Efrain: I mean not not too big of a a fall though there. So it's not not too bad, man. David Liss: Not a lot, but we are still still experiencing a little bit of that decline which you're talking about. Efrain: Yeah. It's different times, man. I think it's cool though that you have the higher education background. So you know exactly what kind of to look for. Do you feel like that's really helped you to kind of go backwards and be in the K through twelve? David Liss: absolutely. it was interesting because coming from higher ed to K twelve, I really knew well, and as a lot of our s of of the educators do, I knew where they were going. I knew what technology was there, and a lot of the technology had already arrived because there was just more money in in that university setting. So as we were trying to apply different technologies at K twelve. It was almost if you've ever said to yourself, I wish I knew now or knew then what I know now, and it was like coming here going, I already know how this works, and being able to apply that that knowledge to the K-12 area. Now, having been in K-12 for 20 years, I can't say that same thing because I'm still learning. Efrain: Every day is a learning day, huh, David? David Liss: Absolutely. Efrain: I love it. What are some of the plans that you have now, man? When we think about just this space, I always say it is a very difficult time right now for those that are in education, those that are in the nonprofits, those that are even in the healthcare industry. Do you think we see a pivot? Do you think it's I always think of life as it's temporary? We just got to understand and work together to get out of this. Do you see there's a pivot? Do you see that there's a up and up? And how long do you think we we have before we start to see some changes? David Liss: I I think we're already starting to experience some of those changes. And we alluded to a little bit of it just now, when we were talking about individualized education. I mean, it's it's no longer everybody just sits in a classroom learning the same thing. Now I'm not saying there's not classes like that, but i even in a classroom of kids learning the same thing, they may be learning it at a different pace. And that's why the technology can help, because a c teacher can't be twenty teachers, they can only be one. but that pivot that I think that you're talking about that really is in our latest technology plan that is or not technology, in our latest strategic plan, is the intentional use of technology. It's the intentional use of everything. We're looking at everything in how we do education intentionally, not just what we know from the past, but we're having to look at the technologies that we're using. I'm speaking technology because that's my world. But not just that we have the devices, but how do we use the devices? How much do we use the devices? When is it appropriate to use them? When is it not appropriate to use them? The one-to-one initiative that swept the nation that every kid has a device for equity, that was great in and of its time. But we are spending millions and millions of dollars on devices and refreshing those every four to five years. And there's still a question out there: is is it an effective tool? Well, I think that's worth answering when our again, when that burden is on our local taxpayers, we need to be able to answer the question: is it actually working? So that's where we are now is to say, not just throwing things at education because because it's what everybody else is doing, but is it intentionally reaching a reason or you know, what is what is that rationale? What are we trying to accomplish? and a purpose is what I was looking for, Efrain: Yeah. David Liss: but is there purpose in it and is it reaching its purpose? And so where I see the pivot is is constant evaluation to the purpose of what it is that we're doing across education and making sure to measure that and react to it on a regular basis. Efrain: I love what you I mean one of the things that you said there, and I'm I'm you know, being a facilitator at some point in my time was not everybody learns the same. And some will learn really good listening, some are you've got to do. So when you think about that, when you put that perspective on laptops, it's like, well, maybe they didn't hear the teacher, but maybe they can actually work on their own and it because I'm the type of person, let me do it and let me fail, and I'm gonna figure it out. And that we do have David Liss: Yes. Efrain: that option actually works when I think about it, man, because I was a student that Best believe I was in class. I wasn't raising my hand when I had questions. Hopefully someone next to me did raise their hand so I can get that answer. But the ability now to be able to on my own ask that question and get that answer, I'm now retaining it. So you I don't know that I someone said it in that way, in that manner, and it makes sense to me, man. I I do feel like there is a it's not a disservice, it's actually a service to students like myself that would just kind of it's crazy to say, but a little shy. You know what David Liss: Yeah. Efrain: I mean? David Liss: And see, you and I were probably on the opposite side of the spectrum because you may be shy and I was the talker Efrain: Yeah. David Liss: and I was keeping you from learning. But you know, I'm a visual learner. So if you're just if I got a somebody up there lecturing to me, my mind's somewhere else. I'm I'm daydreaming, I'm doing whatever. You got graphs and charts and things like that, or some kind of visual, that's what I lock into. And so it's trying to figure out what those independent variables are to every student and trying to not not let anybody or very few fall through the cracks and we teach people to their abilities in the way that they learn. We know that people learn differently. And so how Efrain: Mm-hmm. David Liss: can how can I in a classroom teach you and me at the same time? Efrain: Yeah. Do you feel that arts is also a big thing? I mean, hearing that arts are and maybe not so much in in your school district, but around saying that they're taking out some of these extracurricular activities, do you think that's also a hindrance? David Liss: You know, again, not seeing that so much in Nixah, because that is an intentional focus. we have an intentional focus not only like we have an athletics director, but he's really an activities director. And so it's activities and athletics. So it's not just all the athletic stuff, but it's also the speech and debate. And it's also the esports team and that sort of thing. but yes, the the problem is is when money starts getting cut. You start cutting all of the non-essentials. And unfortunately, those things like clubs, which a lot of times arts fall into if it's not necessarily like theater or band, those types of things start getting cut. And let's just I don't like it. Just understand, I'm a musician, okay? So I get the arts. I was a band geek all, you know, through high school and stuff, but I also played a little bit of football through junior high. And sports seem to dominate the culture of a community. So when you start cutting things, unfortunately, some of those less popular things like the arts start to fall to the more popular things like athletics. And that can each actually create turmoil within a community because then you start pitting personality types against one another. So we try to keep all of those. on an equal footing as much as we can in our district. Efrain: Yeah, just found out and it made sense to me is that when you think about just football in general, right? Even like all sports, when we talk about all sports, the probably number one sport is going to be your football. And it becomes almost like the soul of the school. If you have a good football program, people are showing up to the school, right? People are getting more involved. But when there's not a good football program, what happens? No one even shows up. So it is I I I you know, when someone said that to me, I'm like, I I get it. I cause same. I was a I was a theater kid. I was a chorus kid. And no one was really David Liss: Okay. Efrain: showing up to a chorus concert, right? No, no, not not a lot of people, I would say, but football game on a Friday night, you got thousands in a stand. Yeah, David Liss: Pack the place. Yeah. Efrain: yeah. how do you how do you when you talk about going back to AI, I can only imagine that you're thinking of it. Right. We it's not going anywhere. It's something that we have to really focus on and figure out how do we implement this. Have you thought about David Liss: Mm-hmm. Efrain: it? Like what are some of the ways that you feel could really work for school districts? David Liss: Yeah, I mean we're actually working through that right now. And one of the big things is making sure that our teachers are educated too. when Efrain: Hmm. Good one. David Liss: you think of AI, it it just put AI in one bucket and you put education in another. And the first thing that comes to everybody's mind is cheating. And so, but here's because I'm also very tied into the business community, being on chamber and you know, with our chamber of commerce and that sort of thing. But you put business and AI together and they look at productivity. And so if AI can help my productivity, but in an education sense, I don't want to let my kids use AI because they're going to cheat. The problem and the disconnect is that I've got business owners that want kids that know how to use AI effectively so that they can help because the older I this is general stereotyping. The older generation is not wanting to learn AI. Really pretty afraid of it and things like that. It's gonna, you know, in six months to four years, we're gonna be dead, you know, that kind of thing. The younger generation is embracing it. And they're saying, hey, this is a way I can do this. But there's this middle ground and of that youth that really wanna learn how to use this, even to cheat. Let's just say it, even to cheat, to write papers and whatever. But when we are in education, really to Get to a point of giving us the capacity to be producers, not just consumers, then we need that youth or those people who are going to take those new technologies and make them productive. And so we have to figure out a way that how can we educate using these new tools, Efrain: Mm. David Liss: not being afraid of them being cheating, but to be producing. so that our business owners, when those kids are coming out of high school and going in the businesses, can help those businesses be more productive. So yes, we are on a slide of going, what assignments can be used with AI, what can be assisted with AI, what can we say have no AI? And that's kind of a green, yellow, red light philosophy that we have. But we're getting teachers on board first, then we'll be opening it up to students. And I believe we're opening it up to students a a certain bit of AI starting second semester. Other school districts around us are opening it up a little quicker than we are and and not any less intentional. we're just doing it at different paces. But I think it's coming with most school districts doing it in a responsible way. Efrain: Yeah, no, I I felt that that was always the pushback. It was more of the teachers that just felt uncomfortable, you know, because they didn't understand David Liss: Mm-hmm. Efrain: it. So how do you teach something that you truly don't understand? but I feel like when people start to use it, and I've and I know you've probably seen that when people start to really use them, like, wow, productivity, right? wow, this does this is so good. David Liss: Yeah. Efrain: I was talking to a gentleman the other day, he says, Ephraine, I've become a better chef because of it. Like if we understand how to utilize it for the good. And not the bad, but let's be honest, we can't control it all. We would definitely try to do the best that we can, I can imagine, to kind of put those guardrails, especially at the public school levels. But outside world, when you're at home using it, it's so hard to put those guardrails up. But when someone can become a better chef or someone can be more educated in a certain area, like that's the good. And it is funny, I've I am hearing those conversations that in four years would be extinct, right? Because of the the data towers and all these different things. And I I was telling my my client, I'm like, I would have to do my due diligence to figure this out. Because when we grew up and we had like we went from dial up to the internet, right? Like it was we we were just kind of grown with the times. These kids didn't know. I didn't know during the times. The cell phones came about. And look where we're at so many years later. I mean, evolution has really brought us very, very far. I do think that this is to me almost like the internet. you know, time where it is very different, is very uncomfortable. But to get people to to change is always hard. I don't care what it is. You can put any one little policy that has nothing to do with AI and people are still going to fight it. But I can guarantee that when someone realizes how much AI could enhance, right? It is a tool. It is not a replacement. And I think so many people look at AI like it's going to replace us instead of saying, no, it's a tool that would actually amplify us to become better versions of ourselves. Do you kind of agree with some of that those things? David Liss: I absolutely agree. I I was one of those that I I wouldn't say that I was against AI, but I was very resistant to it. I over using it for probably close to a year's period of time, I use it more as a think partner. Efrain: Hm. David Liss: I one of the things that I equate this to is some people say, well, when spell check first came out. Remember the little red squiggly lines under the, you know, Efrain: Yeah. David Liss: well, that's not fair because that's cheating. Well, let me just tell you, I'm a better speller now because of that. Because when I would see the word misspelled and then I would correct it and see it spelled, now I just spell it right. Well, as I was using AI, I was using it as a thinking partner. Hey, this is an email that I'm ready to think. How would it be received by somebody else? I'm paste it in there and it'd be like, well, I would kind of take it this way. okay. Well, I might tweak these words to okay, well, now I'm becoming a better writer because Efrain: Yeah. David Liss: I'm able to write with other people in mind, just because I've done it over and over. It's been a very useful tool for me. And so, yeah, two things that I just wanted to you you mentioned a couple things that I keyed off of. First, one thing, one thing will never ever change. And that's that things are going to change. Okay. So just anybody who thinks that change is not going to be constant from here on out, whatever. So that brings me to my second thing. People need to start becoming comfortable being uncomfortable because it's just something that we live with. I think about this, you know, when you mentioned innovation and you were talking about, you know, how things are going. I want to equate that back to the how do we get to yes. All too often innovation we see coming out of somebody saying no or everybody saying no. We can't get there, we can't do this, whatever. Then somebody figures out a way to do it. So that's the whole idea of how do we get to yes? Well, let's us be the one coming to yes, because Efrain: Yeah. David Liss: somebody's gonna come to yes. And I feel like that's how that innovation is going. So I wouldn't say to try to stop it. It's just what's the best way that we can use it? You mentioned it with guardrails and using it responsibly. Efrain: I'm gonna put you in the hot seat when you say the nose. 'Cause it happens to us men as leaders. We're going to get the nose. It is impossible. You can never get that done. X Y Z. When did you hear the nos, David, that you said, okay, let me just show ya? David Liss: Are you saying how did I get to this? Like Efrain: No, no, like how many what give me a scenario where you were in a situation and you heard people were saying no to you, but you showed them that yes, it was possible. David Liss: well I guess that would be coming into K-12, honestly. In in higher ed, it's kind of like it's just a more open environment. It's you know, you don't have to worry about kids under 18. Everything is, you know, it's just a more open environment. And you come into a K-12 environment and we can't do this because our kids aren't of age. We can't do this because they're not 18. We have to filter this stuff out, we have to, you know. then especially in technology, we can't do this because it's a cybersecurity threat, and we can't do this because it makes us vulnerable. And I'm just gonna tell you, I'm the kind of guy that I don't like taking no for an answer when unless I exhaust the possibilities. So I start asking the question, and I unfortunately do this like when we have different laws and things like that. I'm like, okay, well, what's the purpose behind that? Like, why Efrain: Yes. David Liss: are we saying no? Why are we saying that? And if I can understand the why behind something, then I can buy in. Why is the speed limit on this street 35 miles an hour? Well, it's because this. And then I rationalize and go, okay, that makes sense. I'm gonna drive 35 miles an hour because there's a lot of kids on the street, whatever. Well, if it makes sense, so what is the why? Then whenever your no is presented to you, and I started saying, okay. Well, what's the purpose behind that? And when you get an answer of I don't know, then we're doing things because we've always done it this way. So Efrain: Yes. David Liss: then you start pushing back and then you start asking other questions. And so I run a technology department here that is unlike most district technology departments in our entire area. Our teachers have access to more things than most school districts do. Our kids have access to more things. Than most kids do. And yet we are still secure, knock on wood. We have excellent cybersecurity. We have excellent controls on what it is we do. But I'm going to tell you what, we work harder than most because making those things happen is hard. And no is typically an easy answer. It's an easy out where to get to yes. takes work and a lot of times it takes hard work. And we as a support organization for what we, you know, our mission is not technology. Our mission is educating kids. And if my guys and ladies have to work ten times harder to make that happen so we can do it at a higher level, that's what we're to do. Sorry, that's the Marine coming out of me. Efrain: Where does that drive come from? I hear it. I hear it. How mu where does that drive come from? Is it a marine thing because of just David Liss: Mm-hmm. Efrain: what's been instilled in you? Did you have that just from mom and dad growing up? David Liss: I think it's all of that. I think it I would say it's just life experience. That's that's who God made me to be. it's the dad and mom and step mom that, you know, that instilled those kind of values. It wasn't hard. I mean, it wasn't I grew up in a loving home. it was a broken home, but had a had a loving mom and stepmom, and my dad and mom got along even. but it was still hard and that hardness paid off. And Marine Corps, same way, school of hard knocks, and a lot of different things I've experienced, same way. And I I would tend to say that you are no different. And most people, it's it's not I don't mean to coin too many phrases here, but it's not what life deals you, but it's how you respond to it. And I would say that I am who I am by the way that I've responded to life, good, bad, and indifferent. Efrain: Yeah. What is your your greatest accomplishment that you're most proud of? David Liss: my greatest accomplishment is my family. I mean, that's just hands down. I mean, there's professional accomplishments that you know, but I've screwed a lot of things up and I have been out of balance a lot of my life. But my just the family that we have and how much we love one another and how blessed I am to have all of my family. within twenty minutes of each other, that nothing could be better. Efrain: Yeah. I love it, man. I mean, sometimes we don't even realize we we just work and I I was recently just saying this like sometimes I just wake up and do the work, man. Sometimes I don't even know where I'm going in my life. I just know I want to do good because at one point in my life, life was not good. Whether it was my choices or choices that were made for me as I grew up you know, I was growing up, and I'm just always just thankful. That we got to see the other side, man, in hopes that we get to inspire and motivate and empower others, right? Like going back to the spaces that we're in, we're not in a selfish place, right? You don't have to be at the school system and do that work. Because let's be honest, it's not where the money is made, you know, but there's you're able to fill cups, you're able to, you know, find purpose. You're able you do this because you love it and there's passion with that. And I actually, as much as we We give, give, give, sometimes it's also hard to turn it off. What do you find yourself doing to recharge it, David, when the noise is getting loud, when it's just become overwhelming? How do you turn it off? David Liss: Well, it's it it actually is changing. for the last Twenty-five years or more since about the year 2000, it's been sports. Endurance sports. there's a whole story in that. matter of fact, I'm writing a book on it right now. but what I found interesting to your question and in endurance sports is I found as I got started. when I go out and run or bike or, you know, whatever it was, there weren't the demands on me that when you weren't doing that. And so what I ended up finding, and it even got to a point of imbalance, is I found that the longer I could go, the more distance I could do, the longer I was away. And so that gave me more of a break and it filled my cup. as you were saying. And so that has been what has filled my cup and then through some just life circumstances, I hate to even say it, but getting older, can't quite do what I once did athletically. And so for some reason and it's again, it's a long story, but I started writing. And the writing in and of itself has been such a blessing to my soul. It's been an outlet that I never knew existed. And so that's that's currently kind of where I am. Efrain: Do you think you always wanted to write and you just couldn't find the time or you felt it wasn't you weren't ready? 'Cause I found myself like plenty of times almost starting to write and then I said, you know what, I I don't know that I have enough to write. Like I I think there's still much more to my story. Did you find yourself at that place in once in your life? David Liss: Yeah, I started I actually the book I'm writing right now, I started 15 years ago. And Efrain: Wow. David Liss: I only got two chapters. I was really like a chapter and a half in, and maybe a little skeleton of of an outline, and just stepped away from it. but you know, to your point, the book I'm writing right now needed the last 15 years to be effective. I could never have written this book 15 years ago without the experiences and the wisdom that came with the last 15 years. And I just think things happen for a reason. And Efrain: Yes. David Liss: that was put away 15 years ago because it wasn't the right time. And now's the right time and it's a different time in my life. And now I'm able to kind of through story and through experience be able to impart maybe a little bit of wisdom on some others. And so as you mentioned too, You know, passing that along and and maybe a little wisdom and mentorship in that. Efrain: And I you know, I always say it's not the colors of our skin that really connect us, it's the stories that we tell. Right? Like when we get to tell these stories, we it allows us to know that, man, we're all humans. We all go through something. We're all having bad days, good days. But when but when we realize and we get down to the kind of needy greedy, we're just humans that are trying to do the best versions of ourselves. And sometimes we just need someone to talk to, and someone to listen. You know, as well. You know, kind of play both sides. So, David, shout out to you for doing what you've done for as long as you've done in a selfless sector of profession. First of all, thank you for your service, right? That was selfless. It wasn't selfish. David Liss: Well, thank you. Efrain: thank you for going into higher ed and really planting seeds there and watering seeds. Then you go backwards and says, Let me plant more seeds, because I know that my guys in the higher ed space are going to continue to water those. Like when you really think about it, man, you've given your life to give to others. And there's nothing selfish about that, man. So I can't wait to see what this book looks like. But I think in a time, I want you to end with this. We're in a time right now where even our colleagues are asking themselves, why? Why am I doing it? When I can go make other money. This is getting stressful, or the drama, or the lack of funds, or the underpaid. What do you tell those individuals? David Liss: Man, I'm gonna come back to what Michael Jr. said. It's gotta be your why. I mean, it's there's gotta be purpose in it. chasing a dollar, you know, we can all make dollars, but what's the purpose in it? I mean, underlying you've gotta have something that you're you're willing to get out of bed for in the morning. And at the end of the day, it's not just something superficial that is just something money can buy. And So from my perspective, I would say the thing that I would put at the top of the list is relationships of people and people on purpose. And so from that perspective, when you're chasing something, you gotta make sure it's something worth chasing. And then, like you said, I mean, you you mentioned it a minute ago when you said we're all people who just need each other and that sort of thing. And If you've got a lot of stuff and you ain't got people around you that care for you and that you can pour back in and everything, like to me, that's meaningless. And so, you know, you find the thing that that gets your drive going and you find what it is that you want to go after. And then don't just go after it by yourself, but grab the people around you. And and I guess I would say don't shortcut. And don't circumvent those relationships with your passion and purpose. And man, I feel like you got the whole package. Efrain: And I'll say tied to what you even said earlier. If you're in a place where you don't feel it's the right environment, you gotta get uncomfortable. You gotta get uncomfortable. Because a lot of the times we're just in bad environments. Not that you're a bad person. You just gotta change your surroundings. We all heard David Liss: Mm-hmm. Efrain: the the analogy, show me your five friends, I'll show you your future. A lot of the times it's those five friends, it's those people you keep calling that you continue to talk to that are that just kind of create doubt within you, man. I always that's why I love plants so much, David, because I've seen a plant, literally, take it out of a pot where it looked like it was dying, put it in new pot, new soil, and I still have that plant six years later. And that's us. A lot of the times, man, we're just in the wrong environments being fertilized by the wrong people. David, I appreciate you so much. For those that are still watching, we thank you guys so much as well. Make sure you guys do like, subscribe, and comment. I can't wait to hear that book, David. We definitely gotta talk about it. Cheers. David Liss: Thanks, Matt.