Latest / ContraMinds Podcast - Unlocking Personal Growth and Professional Excellence / Dr. Annapurni Subramaniam on Reaching for the Stars with Grace and Humility (#025)

Transcript

Dr. Annapurni Subramaniam on Reaching for the Stars with Grace and Humility (#025) · ContraMinds Podcast - Unlocking Personal Growth and Professional Excellence

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Because any college or anything when students go, one of the things they should keep in mind is that are you able to perform at your uh you know at your uh skill set or uh uh limit?
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: Are you challenged?
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: You have to be challenged.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: You should if you once you feel start feeling comfortable at that point, that's done.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: Over.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, that's you you're not performing at your optimal thing.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: You have to be challenged all the time.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: Hey everyone, welcome to a brand new episode of Contra Minds.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: In today's episode, we are in conversation with Dr.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: Annapurni Subramanya.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: Dr.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: Annapurni is the director of the Indian Institute of Astrophysics in Bangalore.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: Her research work focuses on star clusters, stellar evolution and population and galaxies, and Magellanic clouds.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: In this episode, Professor Annapurni speaks to us about her childhood fascination with the night sky, her thoughts on the long-term vision for scientific research in India and balancing leadership and contributor roles in projects with grace and humility.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: If you enjoy the work we do at ContraMind, give us a rating on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: You can also send us what do you think via Twitter.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: Handle is at ContraMind.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: So, without further ado, here is our conversation with Dr.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: Annapurni Subramaniam.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_02: Professor Anapurni Surmanim, thanks a ton for uh joining our podcast, and it's absolutely our privilege to have you as one of the special guests in this podcast.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for inviting me.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: Looking forward to the conversation.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, both uh Vignesh and Swami.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks a lot.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the first thing that I really got uh quite interested was uh the fact that you know coming from a small village in Palkard and you got interested in uh you know stars, and you know, I I I kind of read that uh you know, and some interviews that you had given.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: So uh what is so romantic for you about space?
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: Uh you know, people have been fascinated, fascinated by this for years.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so what makes it so interesting and dominant for you in terms of what it does to uh our country, what what does it do to the science that India is trying to build and becoming a space superpower?
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, an interesting point.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um I would rather call it as uh my passion rather than romance, but uh I have been with it for quite some time and it drives me again crazy.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, just to tell you that I was I mean I was trying to solve something which I was it was occurring to my mind, and I could not take my uh mind out of that particular problem.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: So that is what is passion about because you know, you if you give me five minutes break, I'll just go back to the problem and see whether it's working or not.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: So it is like that, it will not let me sleep.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: So that is what is passion about, and I would not mind sending, I mean, uh sitting whole through the night looking at it.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: I will not feel tired, I'll be excited about it.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: So that is what is passion, and that is what has been driving me for the last uh uh 30 years or so.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: So uh um uh I I was growing up in Palakat, and I think uh uh those days, um, in the countryside particularly, there were hardly any light pollution.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: So the light, uh the night sky is so nice, okay?
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: And we had uh frequent power cuts, and Palakat being very hot, you can't sit inside the house, you have to come out.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: And you have power cut, there's no power, it's absolute pitch darkness, nothing else to do.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: You can't look at anywhere except look at the sky.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so you sit outside, enjoy talking.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: While talking, you keep looking at the sky, so you start watching things here, there, and why is the pattern like this?
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: Someone will say a story, someone will say something else.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: Then you say, Okay, let me go up and read up something about it.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: And those days there's no internet, you have to go to the library and pick up books and start reading it, and you may get some information, you may not get some information.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: So, whatever you get, pick up and uh try very hard to understand.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: So, I used to follow the constellations, I used to say, I used to know that which constellations come at what time of the sky, etc.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: And all that.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I used to be very, very passionate about it.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: Even the night in the morning, I used to get up and watch, and uh uh uh uh also, you know, uh there was Halley's comet at that time, so 1987.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: So that also drove me, and particularly I was interested because uh people would say, no, don't go and look at it because you know uh uh it's going to give you, bring you some bad omin and bad luck and things like that.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: So it's nothing like that.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: Why is it it's visible only sometime?
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: What happens to it?
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: What is it, uh properties, etc.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I was a physics student, of course.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: You will ask questions, so that is what a physics student is trained to do.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I was very passionate about it.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I when I got a chance to do uh research on this topic, and that's it, that's that was my call.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I just uh took off and there's no stop to it, and I still continue.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, as I said, it is really I I I'm really passionate about it.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: So the thing which is uh driving me passionate about it is also one more thing that you know uh in any other topics you see, it's like if you have to plot something, you will say something is known, and then you take that known to unknown, okay, and then you try to solve it.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: But in astronom astrophysics and astronomy, it's actually an unknown versus unknown.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: So there's so much of unknown out there, and uh you have to keep an open mind and go out go out and do it.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: So that uh it'll put you in this completely uh totally uh uncomfortable, unknown scenario, and then you have to come up and solve it.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: And that has to be uh fitting into the you know framework of physics and mathematics.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: So that's something really challenging, and that really uh drives me passionate about it.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing is uh astronomy also drives the uh science and technology for that matter to the limits because you're taking it to the unknown regime, you you will be demanding something which is not known, and people will be asking you why the heck do you want this precision or you know, why accuracy or whatever you you why do you want to do this?
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's nothing you don't you don't really want it otherwise.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: But this drives you to a completely different regime which uh brings a lot of uh I mean advantage to the society and community, but it's not you know it's not an overnight or immediate uh uh uh returns.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: So astronomy is not immediate returns, it is like slogging, and but over a time scale, it is like you know, you're sowing the seed now.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: You have to let that uh uh I mean it is uh let it uh uh sprout, grow, and then nourish, and then it will give a lot of fruits.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: But then you have to wait.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: So it is not like you put a sow a seed right now and tomorrow you'll get fruits.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's not it's not an overnight thing.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's it's something which takes, and even the projects in astronomy for that matter takes ages.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: Any telescope project, JWST is launched now, how long it took?
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, it's not like even if you build a software, it'll not it's not going to be implemented tomorrow.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: So you can't see the light.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: So it is it's a compared, it's it's a kind of a different ball game, but it's uh it's it's really challenging, and uh uh I mean I'm passionate about it.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_02: So uh how how how did you uh you know something you got passionate about when you're very young, and today you are a recognized uh expert globally in astrophysics.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_02: So, what is the route that you took to convert your passion into being an expert?
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: So, what is it that you did over years that uh allowed you to become so good in what you do?
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_02: So, what is it that you did, which I think would be interesting to hear?
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's difficult to put it in words, but uh uh let me start by saying that uh uh okay, when I started doing research, I had no idea what I wanted to do research on.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: So you start with uh working with a guide, and then the guide you know takes you through a journey where you you the most important thing during a PhD is a training period, and it gives you opportunity to explore and understand and find more in find the area in which you would like to pursue more.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so it's a uh it there's a lot of topics.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: You can start with the sun, uh you can go to study stars, galaxies, or a theoretical, you could do experimental, all options are open.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I did my PhD at the Indian Institute of Astrophysics, and that the most the important aspect of this particular institute is that we have a large variety of people working in a large variety of topics.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: So you can go and talk to anyone, pick up whichever one you are interested in.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: So that freedom is here.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: So once I started working on, I realized that I like to work on stars and their evolution, so how they evolve, understanding how to uh uh uh because you know stars uh uh are born and they die, but once human lifetime is not enough to study the whole lifetime of that, right?
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: You won't see it, so you are in the blip of a uh maybe a fraction of a second in the lifetime.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: So, what happens is how do you understand that?
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: And there are so many nuances, so many physics goes into the stars.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: So, how do you sit very far away and then try to understand how they form, evolve, or the fundamental physics behind it, right?
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: So that was very interesting.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I took it up.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: But beyond certain uh after certain time, like I have not stuck to one topic, I just keep moving to other topics as well.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I've worked on many topics.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: So uh, whenever I find that you know a question, a science question comes, and I think that I I feel that it's important to be addressed, then I pick up tools, pick up techniques, move on and try to address that particular problem.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: And it I do not know exactly what is driving me, but you you will plan in the morning.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a planning freak because I have limited time in hand and I need to do a thing.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: So before I come to office, I there in my hand, my mind this has to be done.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: But you know what happens?
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: If you are very interested in a topic, just like I said before, your mind is very difficult to control.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: You the you you will go to that problem and start solving it.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: And after a couple of hours, I realize that look, uh, this was not supposed I was supposed to do, I was supposed to do something else.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: So put my head to it.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: No, it'll not go.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, certain topics are like that.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I have understood such topics, and I know that I can't help it, I have to put my significance of time on that particular topic.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: So that is how things it's been driving me.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I do jump from topic to topic depending upon what science question I feel has to be addressed, and uh hence I continue.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: So um uh it's not that I uh uh uh there are many other reasons why I cannot still continue on one because we have limited resources.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: Because if I want to have a science question which requires much more resources, I can't get it also.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: So there will be several science questions, whichever is possible to solve, I take it up and move forward.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe that is the reason why um uh I've been uh continuing and you know been able to contribute in multiple fields as well.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: So talk to me about um you know the evolution of stars.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_02: That's something that uh you know I also read uh whenever uh you know whatever little research that we did.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: Uh you actually said uh a very interesting statement.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_02: You said stars are great nuclear combinations, right?
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_02: So you talked about it saying that the amount of elements it throws out, the uh you know how it evolves, how it dies.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_02: This is something that uh you know uh that you talk about.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_02: So uh what is it that helps you uh you know study it and what is it that you know we can learn out of this and therefore what impact does it have on discovery and science in a topic like this?
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so um um see basically universe is uh uh is our lab, right?
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: Because everything is around us and you need to understand how they are formed, etc.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: A little bit of things are very close to you so that you can go and touch them and you know grow the experiment.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: But most of it is beyond your touch.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: So you need to uh somehow uh uh smartly gather the information from them to you know infer what is going on there.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: So the very beginning thing is the elements, the material, the matter around you.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: So, how did it form?
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: So, when you look at that, Big Bang did not produce all those elements.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: So, how do the elements form?
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: And the those elements are extremely required for the solar system to have formed, the earth to have formed, and the life and that has to be formed, right?
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: So, but who made all these elements?
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: So, uh when you uh when you ask these questions, then uh I mean very important uh research happened in the last century understanding nuclear fusion and how elements are made.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: So uh we now understand that after all this understanding nuclear physics, everything, uh we now understand that the uh uh the inside the stars are basically uh nuclear reactors.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: So there the elements are formed.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: And these elements, how do we know they are forming the elements?
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the first one is the sun, where the hydrogen uh two uh uh four hydrogen actually fuse to become a helium nuclei, and that is what is happening there.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: And uh uh we know it uh uh I mean from the energetic point of view, we concluded that in the beginning, but then we now also detect neutrinos, which are basically the uh out uh products of the uh fusion, which is basically the uh proof of it.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: And now when also we see the new the supernovae explode, we see the material which is processed coming out.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: But that's at these are the extremes, but when there are other smaller stars which don't explode supernovae, but then they uh eventually throw the material out into the interstellar medium.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: So basically, the stars are the manufacturing plants of all these elements we see, and uh uh and also it depends on uh like when before the solar system was formed, how many stars lived and polluted the environment that is contributing to how what we have right now, and that is very local, it may not be the same everywhere.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: So um uh uh we have uh I mean I study the nearby galaxies to study how the chemistry is, you know, uh across the galaxy, etc.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: So it basically what the astrophysics is a very big puzzle, so you have to put in you know small small pieces here and there to uh to stitch together a story.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: So if you was one missing link is there, it is you sometimes assume, but that assumption has implications on it.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so coming to what I did for my thesis was uh uh uh I mean to give you a very simple example.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: If you look at the sun, sun's picture, you can see something like boiling uh gas kind of a thing, right?
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: So uh that is because the outer part of the sun is convective, like when you boil water in a kettle, after some time, you know you can start bubbles coming out.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: So you can imagine the kind of gas, very hot gas bubbling.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: So that is what is happening in the surface of the sun.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if you look at more, but the inside the uh uh they're all gas, so all stars are glass uh blobs.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so this gas which is actually going up and down is what you're seeing in the sun outside, but inside the gas is not uh bubbling like that, but in slightly more massive stars, the outside doesn't bubble, the inside bubbles, yeah.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: So it is slightly different because how the temper how the energy is produced, it depends on that.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: So when the inner inside is bubbling, then your mixing is to be taken care of.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: So whatever process you have inside or wherever, the physics has to I mean take care of all these processes to you know to predict how much is the energy production, what is how much reaction is taking place, how much this has got this much of matter, how much it will uh last as a star.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: So all these calculations one has to do.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: So my work was to find out how much of mixing is happening in the interior to figure out uh that much of mixing will depend on you know uh your the hydrogen is being converted to helium.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if you have more hydrogen which can be mixed, then you will have more uh time to convert into helium.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: So basically the age matters and the the the core of what whatever it it when when it is the sun becomes a red giant, it has got an inner helium core.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: That mass of the core is the uh decides how much is the lifetime beyond that.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: So, what's the lifetime of sun?
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: So it is uh uh right now it is about 4.5 billion years, so this is like a middle age for it.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: So uh okay, interesting.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_02: 4.5 billion years, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: So um it'll it'll live a lot more than that.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: So this is the age as we know for the sun, yes.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: So sun like stars live for a very long time.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: This is really long, yeah.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: But if you look at very, very massive stars, uh 20 times the mass of the sun, etc., or 25 times, it'll uh live only one thousandth of the uh less than one thousand times the one million year or to ten million years to twenty million years, it lives.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: So uh it's a very short lifetime span.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: So the numbers in astronomy is some astronomy and astrophysics is something which is completely, I mean, people take time to understand, yeah.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: Times all the units like time scales, the length scales, everything becomes really really difficult to, yeah.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: It is get stretched quite a bit.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: So just to if I like if I can just zoom uh zoom out for a little bit, uh if you look at the way the talent moves in today's world, historically, if we have seen some of the best young minds and some of the most seasoned uh or experienced uh researchers end up at a small cluster of institutions, predominantly in the West, right?
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: So even at the heart of the LIGO project was somewhere with MIT with Raina Weiss and all those things.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: So you have very distinguished uh scientific research practices taking place at these uh small network of universities at Harvard, MIT, Caltech, all these sort of places.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: So, from your vantage point, given that today you are the director of the Indian Institute of Astrophysics, uh my question is you know, what might be some short-term and long-term strategies that you would recommend where we also have certain institutions in India, for example, uh operating at that level of reputation, scientific excellence and research opportunities and and uh and a hothouse for talent in a certain sense.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so um see the um the most important thing is uh um you you are you have to be able to take on ambitious stuff, okay, in the mind as well as in the practice, like in terms of experiments.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: So, as I said, um there is if you want to uh do something which is like the cutting edge, you have to push it to the limits and you have to challenge everything you have.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: And we the framework over here, it is not allowing us to do that.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because uh in institutions, I mean in India, like particularly like the government institutions, you have to follow so many norms, so many things.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: By the time you really want an instrument to be built, someone would have built it and done it and you know dusted over.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: We it's very difficult to push projects through.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, and uh, you know, it it that is with respect to experiments, but even if see now uh see what happened like you know some 30 years back and how science is done these years are different.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: Now the the whole concept, or rather, you know, you you need large uh network to do and large group of people to work together seamlessly.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: And when you are mixing or rather talking to people across the institutions, and you the kind of participation you need to do, you need to have resources that much with you as well.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: And access to things are still a problematic stuff.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: As I mentioned, I uh mentioned earlier, access to instruments, access to bigger telescopes, we don't have.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: So if I find a pro problem which I need to be pursuing, I need to go and collaborate with somebody and then take it forward and then pursue it.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: It is it is not very easy.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to either you know uh uh um access some instrumentation or some facility outside, or you have to have the facility within the country or set it up.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: So um uh the institution building as such, you need to have people who can actually uh um uh either you have you create or nourish and build very, very uh uh in What do you say?
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: Challenging minds or bright minds which can solve it.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: But you can very well see it people drain off to certain pockets.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: That is because you are able to do what you want to do there and challenge it to much higher level.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because any college or anything when students go, one of the things they should keep in mind is that are you able to perform at your uh you know at your uh skill set or uh limit?
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: Are you challenged?
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: You have to be challenged.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: You should if you once you start feeling comfortable at that point, that's done, over.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, that's you you're not performing at your optimal thing.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: You have to be challenged all the time.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: The environment has to challenge you all the time, but that that doesn't happen here.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: So is it a challenge of what you said first, which is having an ambitious uh you know uh goal versus lack of resources, or is it uh both?
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: How what do you what do you see as uh a fundamental problem?
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: See, I I don't think we we lack uh uh talent.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think we lack ambition, but converting the talent and the ambition to reality and completing the the fruitfulness is lacking.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: Be it in any place, I think.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: I I think it's it happens in industry everywhere.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: This is the problem because you are not able to you uh I mean it it involves certain amount of risk, certain amount of things to shortcut because you don't know how to do it.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: Look at the it's it's it's not impossible, but then you just need to make sure that yes, I want to do it, and you and everything else should support you in that endeavor.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't happen, right?
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: Is it but but just to follow up on that, would you would you say it because we are more of an up, we have a historical tendency, if I might say, uh, to uh really have young people focus on applied sciences more than pure sciences?
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: Because uh, if you look at it, a lot of uh the the common narrat the common narrative is that every young person should strive to become an engineer if you're talking about non-biology related fields.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, you should go to software engineering, hey, you should be an electrical engineer.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, do we have a craze or a monomania within the country where we are valuing applied sciences more than pure sciences?
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I I'm not quite sure about it because we do have talent, people who even if we pe some mean if you look at some fraction of the people who are in academia who have come back to basic sciences after doing engineering, okay.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: They've identified that this is my talent, and people who want to do go and do an engineering in IIT or something like that, go out to do a PhD in basic sciences and continue to do a B uh, that's not that's not stopping them.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: But what I'm trying to say is that the um the institution building it requires to retain people, very bright people here, and challenge it and do it.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: So uh the the the how you go about doing it is a bit different here compared to how it is done uh uh outside.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: So there is a big difference there.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: And earlier, you know, we we had, I think, in uh I think more than 50 years back, we had terrific people in the country who are doing excellent science, C V Raman, uh SN Bose, JC Bose, everybody.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: So they were they were there were a lot of people.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: They could do it, they could drive it, but that's not happening now.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: So basic sciences need a little uh a lot more push, and as I earlier said also, the uh uh the way it is done then, you could actually independently or single-handedly you could drive things there, but right now it is not, it's not like that.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: It is like, you know, the LIGO, the gravitational wave detection, the huge number of people involved in it.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm glad that a lot of in I mean, there was a big Indian contribution to it, but not in everything, like the imaging of black hole.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: We we were not part of it.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: We don't have any facilities in that wavelength trains to contribute to it.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: So it is you don't that the like uh you know, it's like I I I sometimes relate what I do with my uh what I learn in singing, also.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like my father used to tell me that you need to practice every day.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's not that you're going to have a concert every next day, but somebody comes and asks you for a concert, you can't say, Hey, hello, hold on, I have to practice and come back for your concert.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: You can't say that.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: Similarly, if some some progress is suddenly happening in the terms of sign and basic discoveries, you need to have your resources ready.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: You can't say that hold on, you can't discover now.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: Let me, you know, bring up my resources up, then you then we will discover that that doesn't happen.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: Is do you do you think this is happening because people who let's call them the money people and not the you know whatever they are, right?
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think people who hold who who are allocating these resources uh are they short-sighted or do they not see potential, or do you think that they are investing in something that they think will bring a better ROI for something else?
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: Why do you think this is happening?
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: No, that is because you don't have a long-term plan.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: Because planning is very important.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: So, what is that you're planning for?
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: If you just plan for a few years, it's not enough.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: You need to plan for 10 years, 20 years.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: What is your long-term vision?
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then fix your each and every step to reach that vision.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, you you have to you cannot predict what happens in the next 30 years.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't mean you can you can't plan.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: You have to plan and also keep modifying it as and when you climb up, right?
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because the international scenes scene keep changing, but you have to have a plan and work towards it.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: And this normally happens in the US, the other nations also have this decadal vision.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: We don't have such decadal visions.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: So give me an example of uh uh decadal vision that uh you have seen uh seen it work.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_02: So, can you give us an example for us to visualize how they thought about it 10-15 years or 20 years back and how the fruition of that thinking is g is benefiting uh you know the US or any other country?
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: Can you give me give us an example?
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so JWST, which is launched now, uh, it was supposedly a percussor for uh the sorry, the next one for the uh this thing, HST.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: So Hubble Space Telescope was launched in 1990s.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: There were a lot of uh uh the repair uh uh uh uh missions carried out, and some of the instruments got changed as well.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: So it is working for 30 years now.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's in a low earth orbit.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: But it's 30 years is quite a bit, bit of time.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: So the then the next one in the infrared was planned in the middle of uh uh 2000, I think.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: Or I think early 2000 itself.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: But there were a lot of delays and a lot of uh um uh the costless escalation was quite a bit, and the detectors they bought uh did not work, and you know they have to buy a lot more things and all sorts of things.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: The uh they had serious problems with uh the power arrays and things like that, the solar arrays and etc.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: But in the last decadal survey, they had uh uh rated it high and pumped and decided that no, it is it should be done.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: They decided it and uh that because the scientific community felt that it has to be done at a higher priority, then the funding goes to that because it's this the it's the decadal vision puts it as the highest priority.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: So once you once the scientific community, it's a very uh detailed uh review process goes on, and then once you have it, you once the scientific community says that this is what it should be done, then the funding agencies uh uh support it, and then you move on to that uh doing that.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a huge amount of responsibility on the scientific community as well, it's very highly competitive, so it is it it is good for both sides, right?
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: Because you know, you have to push someone to think to bring it to the to the uh to the country to the international scene, and then uh push it forward.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to be at the top of the world, right?
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: So so and then once you are convinced, and the every even the referee and all the the committee for the decadent mission, it's a big committee reviewing everything.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: So they are also convinced, then the funding agencies have lesser problems in going through all these reviews, etc.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: Right, and then the funding comes in, and they they will have they will look at various things like what is how the country will develop, how the technology in the country will develop, how other industry partnerships in the country will develop.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: So everything they will look at.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: So apart from you know how the execute execution of the project, etc.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: So that that is now uh completed and now it is this uh put on orbit.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: Now the other thing which was at uh held uh given top priority, but which it could not complete was the 30-meter telescope, but India is a partner to it.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: So hopefully we will uh see the light because the the NSF sorry, the decadal 2020 is uh uh kept uh given it higher priority.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I think this process is very important and that gives you a long-term vision.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: And that, like I said, you know, you you will be prepared and you will know that where the internationally things are moving.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: Are you way behind?
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: Are are you you know, you are you going to compete in this direction?
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: Are you uh going to put your resources in this direction?
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: If yes, wise, everybody will be convinced by that.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I I think something like that is really important to keep up the you know uh the uh um resources and uh keeping us ready to be uh uh doing discoveries in uh the contemporary fields or upcoming areas.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what I feel.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_02: Great.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_02: Uh uh, which brings me uh to one question.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_02: You talked about the 30-meter telescope, and uh I want to talk about the complexity of missions that you have been involved in, which is you know, the you know in these kinds of missions, there is a whole diverse team that works, right?
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_02: So, therefore, uh what was interesting to me was in one project you are a leader, in another project, you are a calibration scientist, in another project, you are a software programmer.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: So, how do you really look at uh you know working in such diverse fields?
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_02: And at one point you are an individual contributor, at the other mission you are probably a leader.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_02: So, the principle of interoperability of roles, how do you really uh you know uh prepare for it and what is important in your uh you know in your experience for people to get ready ready to actually you know uh play these roles as uh you know as we get into large projects?
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I I would I would say from what where I am now because thinking back, I how I did it, I don't know, but then you know thinking back I can tell you one thing which I've always felt is that uh um when it becomes a role, uh when you take up a role, you I I tend to identify what are my roles and responsibilities, not as a person, but as a uh you know uh that particular part.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I play that part.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: So it's very important for you to identify that.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: So it may be a memory, like in a in a committee, if it's a member, you do it, if it's a member secretary, you have to do something else, if it's a uh chair of the committee, then you the way you think through is very different.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I identify that role and then I identify the the I mean uh as a physics person, I have uh certain questions.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: Every time I take up something, I I have with my mind certain questions.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I keep answering those questions, saying that okay, is it there?
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: Is it correct?
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: Is it am I doing the right thing?
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: So things like that.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: But uh adaptability to from one to the other.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think for um for me as a person uh um and also uh uh having different uh hats at at home and at work, uh, it uh balances me quite well.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I have elders, I have to talk to elders, I have to talk to uh younger people, I have to talk to uh my own age group, you know, it it's it brings out a lot of balance.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: And uh um and uh uh I also have uh people who are very, I mean, like uh my parents are vocalists and they're really achievers, and uh they're very, very down-to-earth people.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: So that grounds you know puts me down to the ground saying that nothing doing.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: So uh and nobody we we don't uh uh um glorify things.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: If it's a mistake, it's a mistake, it's uh set on face.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: So it's nothing like you know, you don't you don't fly on something like a small achievement, nothing.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: So whenever you do something, okay, it's done.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: Now you look forward to more things.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: So the bar is always raised high.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: So uh so that kind of an environment you puts you to just do the work and also make sure that you complete what you have taken up.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: So that that is something which I have learned.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: And uh actually in the 30-meter telescope, I was not a programmer, I hardly know any software.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean the sense that I'm a user, but I was the project manager in the sense that I was heading from the Indian site, the um the observatory um uh control software uh team.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: So, observatory software team actually.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, um of course I needed to know certain aspects of software, whether they're heading towards okay or not.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: But um, yeah, I was leading the team.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's it's something which I did for four or five years and I really enjoyed it.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: But once I took over as the director, I handed over to somebody else.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's interesting.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it's interesting what you see is that you actually pick up things that you become uncomfortable with, and then you then start raising the bar.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_02: That seems to be one principle that uh, you know, that uh, you know, uh apologies for saying, you know, it's a programmer kind of a thing.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_02: But I think the fact that you picked up but if you pick up say a software programming kind of a lead leadership role, then uh you are actually doing something which you are not comfortable with, comfortable, but then you learn so much that then you give that back in some other project.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that's something that I'm seeing as a common thread in what you're talking, right?
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, that's right.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: Because uh, whenever I I when I I I do things where there is a learning uh component there, always take up some things which there's a learning component there.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: Even if I'm pushed the wall, they have no time left, but I find something is quite interesting and I want to learn that I will do it.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: So, one of the other things that uh I think there was an article that I had read where you were talking about this thing called astro tourism.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: So, can you talk a little bit about what is astro tourism, what potential does it hold, and how can at least you know we be a pioneer in that field?
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: So uh that's an interesting topic, which I think India is uh lagging behind.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we need to do that.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but it it has got to it's a win-win situation basically, because um when I give talks to students, particularly, when I say that I grew up and I was fascinated by the night sky with seeing so many stars, and now nowadays it's just not there, it's just roped away from us.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: It is there.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: Who says it's not there?
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: It is very much there, but it's just robbed away from us.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: And do you need to light up the sky like this and destroy the night sky?
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's not required.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: So the point is uh if you go to interior places and you look up where you have to identify pockets where there's no light pollution and go there and look up at the sky and then say, Oh my god, it's so beautiful, it's so pretty.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's something which which is like so fascinating, and it tells you that you are one speck out there, like you know, it's like you know, the the recent thing of uh lifting off to the uh the larger the upper atmosphere and seeing the earth from above.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's something it's a very, very uh different kind of an experience.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: So here also looking at so many stars in the sky is a very different experience.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: Now that can be done only in certain places.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: Now, many places you have to identify and go, people go there, and with the digital equipment, people are able to capture the uh night sky, beautiful pictures.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: So it's an enjoyment, it's something which is uh uh something we should know where we are.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: And we have observatories, and these observatories we try to maintain dark sky, and the one which we are trying to do right now is in Hanle.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: Hanle is uh um at uh is in Ladakh, UT Ladakh, and uh this uh place is an observatory we set it up in 2000 in 2000, sorry, 1995 onwards, we started building it up, and 2020 onwards we are operating a two-meter class telescope there, and it is at a high height of 4500 meters above sea level, and it's a very harsh conditions.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, oxygen level is about uh I think uh around half 50 percent, 60 percent.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: So one has to take care to go there and observe, etc.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: And the sky is is just magic.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_00: If you go there in the daytime, it's like you will not see anything once the sun sets, it's magic, it's full of stars.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: So the uh they now after in the last uh uh four or five years, people have been traveling there and uh the Himalayan region to capture the sky, you know, uh enjoy the sky and take pictures, etc.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: So tourism uh and these people over there also uh there are a lot of um uh home stays, and they also run the facilities, etc.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: But we have to save the sky, we cannot let it pollute.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: But at the same time, tourism also has to happen.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: So this is a project to give empower the community and make give them understanding about the sky, give them train them equipment, and also they will enjoy the sky, let the their guests also enjoy the sky, and we also will be able to do our scientific experiments there.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: So the astro-tourism is to uh and also integrate the local uh things, you know.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: It is important that we had a lot of stories, a lot of songs, a lot of uh um all the traditions which are associated with the nature, and they're all forgotten now.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: People do, I mean, I don't think the youngsters know when the uh the mango flowers come, you know, is there are seasons for everything, and then uh uh uh to a lot with the sky, also, like you know, when the Orion comes in the west, when do the uh Milky Way uh galaxy uh comes, Milky Way center comes up in the sky.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: So when does it happen?
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: So these are some things which should be, you know, you you should feel it, but then this is completely lost.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: So these are kind of efforts with the local uh uh um local understanding of the sky, the stories, the uh uh uh whatever tradition they have, and bring it together so people understand that and also connect more with the nature and the science at the same time.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: So this is an effort in that direction.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: And speaking of local, uh the IA has a initiative which I found very fascinating, uh, which is that uh uh the IA is uh initiative where scholars are giving talks in vernacular languages on astrophysics.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so I was seeing a post where somebody was giving talks in Kannada and things like that.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I have a two-part question on this, which is number one, what are your thoughts on the public communication of science and what kind of impact would you like to imagine this course of this kind of discourse is creating in India?
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, see, science communication has taken a big boost recently, and uh um I mean previously people used to talk, but then suddenly you somehow do not know how to communicate with people.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_00: So someone comes and asks me, How am I doing?
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: Then I have to take a step back and how do I explain it to you?
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: So it has become like that, and it is not right, right?
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because as someone asks me, What is that?
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_00: You get excited to a certain level, after that, it the connect is lost.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: So that connect we have to rebuild that they have to we have to bridge the gap.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: And uh uh so these callers, when we they come, they are they're into the details of everything, okay?
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: So it is not easy for them to take just just lift off and say that okay, overall, can I explain to a layman how to do that?
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_00: So we have certain initiatives to every publication the student publishes has to write up a story on that so that anybody can understand that it is not easy at all.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: So to you know, to come up to that level and do it, but it's it's important, but again, that is only in English.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_00: Now, how about people?
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_00: Not everybody will be reading it in English or listening to it in English, etc.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: You'd like to talk in local languages and convey the uh excitement in that, so it is much more difficult than that.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: So we are right now, I think uh we have a good team of people who are working on the outreach and science education, so we have a team called.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Scope, which works for science communication, outreach, and public education.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: And today we had a talk on uh Gujarati, I think.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so there are passionate people who are willing to talk in various languages, and uh it's an initiative, and we have started in a few months, it is going really well.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_00: If you take look look at in YouTube, also it's there are not too many uh languages, and we also are now putting up all these calendars, events, etc., everything in multiple languages, so people will be able to understand and uh uh uh relate to it.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_00: So it's basically you know, you have a uh you have created a gap, and that gap has to be bridged at all um at all levels.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: So if you want to go to an interior Karnataka and want to talk, you should have to talk in Canada, so it's very important, and also uh relate to all in you know people of all ages, that's also important.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, this is an initiative in that direction.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully, it'll go further.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I'm I absolutely love it, and I think I'm a fan of it.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thank you.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so um, as a follow-up to this question, uh, when you do it in languages, what impact does it have on uh you know on people taking it, taking up uh uh you know, taking interest in this area, or what impact does it have when you do it in languages?
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_00: See, one is uh awareness itself, and second is uh um see uh I mean I must also tell you that you know we are doing it in YouTube right now, but people have to have access to YouTube to listen to this, okay.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_00: But in general, you have to go to the community and then talk to them.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so there are two things to do it.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_00: One, uh awareness is very important, and uh second is uh inspiring the young minds who are there in the remote areas, so it is very important, like people uh uh people in the cities, they it information is at their fingertip.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: They're too much of information at the fingertip right now because to you have to figure out you have to be smart enough to sort out what is you need and to what you don't need, right?
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_00: But I think the younger generation is smart enough.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so uh uh the um uh in the on the other hand, it is important to accept everybody, the opportunity, the you know, the um uh the uh availability of uh resources across or at least awareness that such and such a thing is available for them, educating them, and also say that showing them a roadmap, that this is possible, how you can do it.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: So engaging in the conversation.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_00: So that that has helped.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_00: So we also run several things in uh in the observation villages near the observatory in Hunle, where the students of uh uh basically the uh the community over there, what happens is there are villages are being established now, but since the uh the grazing area keeps changing as a fun uh as a uh throughout the year, gets frozen, etc.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_00: Nomads they actually take their cattle or their grazing sheep, etc., and move on, move around.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_00: So they're not staying in one place as such.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_00: They're group, large groups groups of nomads.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_00: Now, in the last few years, they are trying to settle down, but what they do is the children don't get educated.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_00: So there are many schools where they leave the children behind, and the the elderly people move around with their um you know uh sheep.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_00: So we try to educate them, the students, and then give them a roadmap, etc.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's what we're trying to do there.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_02: Given that you have achieved so much, uh uh, one question that I wanted to ask you is uh obviously a lot of people look up to you, and uh therefore, what are the great qualities a mentor should have, and who are the mentors for you who changed your life and career?
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, let me first answer the first one the mentors who changed my uh path.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_00: There are a few of them.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, first one is the um a teacher.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, he was a retired teacher, he was giving tuition in the uh village where I was I grew up.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we used to call him Murthisar.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so he was my neighbor, and uh I clearly remember um till fourth standard I was studying in Malayala medium, and fifth standard, my uh father realized that okay, maybe uh you should change to English medium because you know it is important for your growth and things like that.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_00: They my parents are both musicians, but then he said, No, no, no, it's important that you move to English medium.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_00: I said, fine, I'll do it, but then I didn't know the consequences, just going into English medium and reading everything in English, I had no idea what's going on.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_00: So the only thing which I could survive was mathematics and probably Hindi.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing else I could survive.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I was kind of devastated.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_00: I was stopping the class till fourth and fifth.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm nowhere.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_00: What is going on?
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_00: So then he called up and said, no, no, no, it's the right move.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_00: Just hang on, you will work hard, and then he helped me with certain things, and I was also very scared of that person, but he helped me and then I kind of stabilized.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_00: And that is one instinct where he supported me.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: And second, is he used to give tuitions to 10th standard?
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I I ended up rolling up, I mean, enrolled in his tuition class.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_00: I was I studied in a government school, I should say that, and it's a girl girls' government school where uh the divisions used to go till M N O P.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so large number of students, so very, very large number of students.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_00: They had only one division for English, so there's a lot of girls' students, but it's a government school.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's one of the largest schools in Kerala to uh uh with the largest number of girls students appearing for 10th exams.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_00: So uh it was such a school.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so I because this okay, the teaching is uh average in school, you'll have to learn separately.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_00: So it was I think, but he was really passionate about things.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_00: He will scream at you and shout at you for making a mistake.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's not because of anything else.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_00: He knows that you can do it, but you're not able to do it, and he's not able to control it.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_00: So he was really passionate about it.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_00: So when somebody does good, he was he he used to be very happy about it.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_00: So uh so we worked hard and then I think I I did well in 10th.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_00: And then the next person was that uh I I and in the in when I was doing in the degree program, sorry, in the uh college, um I had two options, one to proceed the music way or to take up science.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I always it used to go up and down all the time.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I wasn't sure whether to continue science or you know, I have the capacity to continue in science or only continue in music.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_00: So sometimes when you don't, you're not very uh things are not going well, or you know, you don't you're not having any interest, interesting thing happening.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_00: So the interest kind of comes down.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_00: So one of his lecturers and uh BS uh BSC, I think, was that uh he actually uh challenged our thinking.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like in one of the things is like uh when you have an experiment to be conducted and the we copy the experiment picture from the guide to the records, right?
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what we do.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_00: If we copy it exactly, he will shout at us, saying that nothing doing.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_00: Just because that guy has drawn like that, you're drawing exactly like this.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: You have to use your way of doing it.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_00: For that matter, we had a potential meter which is 10 meters.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_00: The thing will draw four lines, it is like symbolic.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: So we all draw four lines.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_00: Is it either one line or you draw 10 lines?
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_00: Why are you drawing four?
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_00: So, like that, he used to question.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_00: So that really kicked us.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_00: Then we we actually every time you do it, we think about it, and then you do it.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_00: So that was he was his name is Sudarshan sir.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_00: I think he passed away a few years back, but he was an I mean he was not a T great teacher, but then he drove us uh in this in this way to think about it.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_00: That is how I realized that physics is interesting because still then I nobody uh stood my um you know excitement and challenge to do it.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_00: So that was very challenging.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_00: Then I said, nothing doing, I'm going to move moving forward.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_00: So uh he was really turning point.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_00: The second the thing about when I mentor students is uh what I look for is that I have mentor a lot of students.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_00: I um I I I as I as you noticed earlier, I also have to learn.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_00: So every student I make sure that the student learns and I also learn something from the student and from the project.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_00: Number one, two, each one is different, each one has a different capacity, different aptitude, different way of doing things, handling things.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_00: It is important as a mentor to identify that and nurture it.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_00: So and give uh important to identify where they need support and give that support.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, uh, that is the most if for a PhD student's first one year I do that and make sure that they run the show next.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I have to know what exactly um are their uh things.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I learned from them, and they this is how they are, and then they support them.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I do not use the same yardstick for everybody, each one is different, each one has different capability.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think probably I learned it from my kids, both are very different.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_00: I have two kids and they are very different.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_00: I can't use the same thing for approach for both.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, so we're coming to some closing questions.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, so I'll ask the first question.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_02: Uh uh, what does the word successful mean to you?
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, I don't know.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_00: I think uh uh that's a very uh uh question which will have different answers depending upon when you ask a person during their career or during their life.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_00: But as of now, I would say that as long as I can I continue to do what I want to do in my life, and uh uh I get uh uh I mean I get the resources and uh things like that done.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm uh as long as I can do that, I'm very happy.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_00: And that is what a success is about because I have identified my passion, identified it, I am able to pursue it and continue doing it and excel at it.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_00: So that I consider it as passion.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, uh success.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_01: Uh my next question is uh, what are some of the books that have influenced you the most over the course of your life and career?
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_00: I can't quite answer that question, but uh um there are certain profoundness which has uh uh hit me.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_00: Gore Vidal's creations, that is something which is uh it's an amazing book.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_00: It talks about all the uh history actually.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's a novel, but then the the kind of information flows through it is uh uh amazing.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_00: But I also should tell you one more thing that I I try to not to read long books but short things, but I learned something from it.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever I learn, I have to learn something, carry with me something from it.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_00: Even a conversation, I want to carry something from it.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_00: So that and uh not able to, I don't normally read big books, I read small books and I also I read uh um Sudamurti's uh stories, they have a lot of takeaways.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_02: My next question is uh if you were to give advice, say three or four things, to an 18-year-old at a university, what are the three pieces of advice that you would give?
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um one is all topics are interesting, you just you need to find out what is what you what is what interests you and identify your passion and work hard.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_00: There is no escape route.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_00: Well, hard work is the sole answer, everybody is working hard.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to work hard, be passionate about it, and challenge yourself.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_00: Hard work is important, challenge yourself.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_00: Once you start feeling comfortable and uh you are able to do it, that means you're not challenged.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_00: So find something which will challenge you.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_01: Great.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, my next question is if you could invite four guests for your dream dinner, who would they be and why?
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I would have one by one by one because I would not be able to talk to everyone together.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_00: So uh one is Sudamuti.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_00: I think she's a very, very inspiring person, very simple and very inspiring person.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I really uh like to have to talk to her.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_00: And uh one person from uh um uh music is if I could talk to Shemangur Sweeny was here, I would have done it.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_00: He's an amazing uh singer, and uh um and uh in science, yeah.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_00: Again, if I could talk to C V Raman at some time, so that would have been nice to talk to him to figure out how things work.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, great.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh what is uh uh one best piece of advice someone has ever given you?
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_00: Two things I would say.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_00: One is um my dad.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_00: He's not an advice, he he he just does things like uh he sings every day in the evening uh for the last few years, but otherwise he sings at home.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_00: As a child, he used to sing, get up in the morning and sings, he will sing.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh he's not he's a teacher, he's not a concert guy, but then he would sing, he would keep singing.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_00: If I do I I I play with him, I practice with him.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_00: And nowadays I'm not able to do that, but uh for a lot of years I used to sit with him and practice.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_00: If I don't practice with him, he'll say, Today gone, one day gone.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's it, that that's so much in it, that particular statement.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, it basically says that the time lost, you can't take it back.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever you do, you can't take back.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to make sure what you do with your time.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_00: What you if it is lost, one hour lost, lost, you can't, you can't take it back.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_00: So decide.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_00: So that puts a lot of pressure on you, okay?
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_00: You have to decide what do you want to do.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_00: You are you lose lost one one hour?
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_00: So it drives me crazy.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_00: And second thing is again Sudan Murti's talk uh saying, I don't quite remember what exactly it is, but then it says that whatever situation it is, you may be in a disadvantage situation, but identify the advantage of that and make use of it.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_00: So, whatever situation, it may be disadvantageous to you, but then try to identify what is uh the best, what you can do at that time and take advantage of that.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_00: That situation may not arise, and that vantage point we will not get.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I think these two are uh quite a bit of uh entwined into my uh the way I do things.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_01: My next question to you is uh what is something that you believe in that nobody else agrees with you on?
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_00: Ah, that's that's quite difficult.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_00: See, one is sometimes I am uh uh uh I maybe sometimes I mean it's a combination of discipline and uh uh planning.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's not agree, but people find it a bit uh uh hard to cope up with.
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_02: So discipline and planning, is it?
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's execute.
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_00: You say if I if I if I want to do some things, even if I just go be go to kitchen and cook something, even before that I would have planned what time I will do, what I will.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean it's in the in the mind I would have done it.
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_00: And then I stick to that, and that becomes a bit of a uh it's good.
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying people don't agree to it, but it's uh yeah, and sometimes you're on a vacation and you start planning.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it what do you mean?
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_00: You can you should be able to do what do you want?
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_00: Why do you want to plan it?
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_00: So so but that that's that's something which is probably I'm not able to get let go of it.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_02: You've you've kind of heard contramands, you've listened, that's what you told me.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_02: So, my last question really is uh who's a guest that you would like to see featured in contramands?
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_00: You could I I don't know, but uh it'll be nice to listen to uh Kasuri Rangan?
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_00: He has written a book recently on space, I think it's a space physics.
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_00: I forgot the title, but then I've been reading through it.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's a lot of intense, a lot of intense stuff.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_00: So uh and he has touched a lot of different aspects for a person to uh uh uh uh wear a lot of different hats and at at the top, it's not easy.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_00: So it'll be nice to I I don't know, but it's it's it'll be good to hear.
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and also I there are uh like what you have done in uh in the previous one, it was very nice on the knowledge uh uh management in NASA.
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_00: You could talk to someone um in ISRO as well.
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I mean uh Kasurangan was there, but then you could also talk to uh Kirin Kumar because that that that'll bring out something which is not known to other people.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_00: So how things work that that'll be uh that'll be nice, I think.
• 1:02:41
  SPEAKER_02: Great.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks a lot.
• 1:02:43
  SPEAKER_02: It was uh absolutely fantastic conversation.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_02: More importantly, I think uh you touched upon so many soft things, uh, which I think we miss most often because some conversations uh are very transactional.
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_02: I think uh there's a checklist of things that people say, but uh many of the points that you made uh were very very soft things, but they have a hard impact on what it does to you and what it does when you really think about it.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_02: Uh thank you, and I quite enjoyed what you said, and I have learned a lot of things out of this conversation.
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for your time.
• 1:03:27
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 1:03:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was nice talking to you as well.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for listening to this episode.
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_02: For selected links and detailed show notes, visit www.contraminds.com slash blog.
• 1:03:48
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• 1:03:54
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• 1:03:59
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• 1:04:01
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• 1:04:12
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