Latest / Hell and Gone: Murder Line / People Seem to Die Around Her

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People Seem to Die Around Her · Hell and Gone: Murder Line

0:08
Speaker 1: School of Humans. Yeah, so I had a conversation with
0:15
Speaker 1: dad last night and he is leaving. He and my
0:19
Speaker 1: stepmom are leaving on this four day hunting trip, and
0:24
Speaker 1: so he took me aside and told me, he said,
0:28
Speaker 1: here's the thirty eight. He's got a loaded thirty eight
0:31
Speaker 1: and another gun, and then he's got He's like in
0:34
Speaker 1: Dirty Harry lives here. He's got his dirty Hairy gun.
0:38
Speaker 1: There's three fully loaded weapons sitting there. And I had
0:41
Speaker 1: a plan if anyone came to the house and came
0:43
Speaker 1: up the stairs. They know where we live too, So yeah,
0:48
Speaker 1: we just decided to stay together. We have a full
0:51
Speaker 1: bar here and also some guns that are loaded, so
0:55
Speaker 1: that was important. It's been about a week since our
0:57
Speaker 1: conversation with Chris. My dad and stepmom have left for
1:01
Speaker 1: a hunting trip and left us with my dad's guns
1:04
Speaker 1: in case anyone comes by the house. On top of that,
1:07
Speaker 1: James has had to leave town for another assignment. So
1:10
Speaker 1: for now, it's just Taylor and me and out there somewhere.
1:15
Speaker 1: Rebecca's killer. In September of two thousand and four, twenty
1:23
Speaker 1: two year old Rebecca Gould was brutally murdered in a
1:26
Speaker 1: remote area of the Arkansas Ozarks. Fourteen years later, her
1:31
Speaker 1: killer is still out there. I've come back to Mountain
1:35
Speaker 1: View with one mission to get justice for Rebecca. I'm
1:39
Speaker 1: Catherine Townsend and this is Helen Gone. After he retired,
1:55
Speaker 1: my dad built a big country home that's a replica
1:58
Speaker 1: of one of Thomas Jefferson's houses. The French colonial White
2:01
Speaker 1: Column Plantation House sits on top of a mountain, overlooking
2:04
Speaker 1: Mountain View. Architecturally it's beautiful, but because it overlooks the town,
2:11
Speaker 1: everyone knows where we live. It's quiet here at night,
2:15
Speaker 1: dead quiet, except for the sound of an old ticking
2:19
Speaker 1: grandfather clock. After we locked the gate, we hunkered down
2:24
Speaker 1: in my war room upstairs to take another look at
2:26
Speaker 1: the murder board. In this whole region, I mean, we
2:31
Speaker 1: saw my storm. There's a huge drug problem, and I
2:33
Speaker 1: get why there's this big focus on drugs, but in
2:38
Speaker 1: this case, and again, you know, everything has to be
2:40
Speaker 1: taken case by case. In this case, it really wasn't
2:42
Speaker 1: a factor, or doesn't seem to have been. I think
2:46
Speaker 1: that they genuinely thought that Chris might have had something
2:50
Speaker 1: to do with it, and also perhaps the thought was, well,
2:54
Speaker 1: he's a bad guy. He deals drugs, he's on drugs.
2:58
Speaker 1: It was just really easy to sort of slot him
3:01
Speaker 1: into that and say, maybe he did it, And we
3:03
Speaker 1: really don't even know why he got accused of it. Well,
3:06
Speaker 1: I still don't understand why. I mean, and granted the
3:08
Speaker 1: police aren't sharing evidence, so there could be evidence we
3:11
Speaker 1: don't know about, but I mean, I really have no
3:15
Speaker 1: idea why he was named as a suspect other than
3:20
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm in my head. I'm always thinking like,
3:21
Speaker 1: how could it have happened? The only thing that I
3:24
Speaker 1: have found or that I can recall that would really
3:26
Speaker 1: put him there is when Rebecca called Jesse saying that
3:29
Speaker 1: she needed a new alternator, but he couldn't provide that,
3:32
Speaker 1: so she called Chris. So if she did call Chris,
3:35
Speaker 1: and if Chris was in her recent contact, that is
3:37
Speaker 1: literally the only reason that I can think of that
3:41
Speaker 1: made the cops even go towards him, right, And but
3:44
Speaker 1: that's still not I still don't understand where they went
3:47
Speaker 1: from there too. He did it because he has a
3:50
Speaker 1: bad rep Yeah, I think so, unless there's some major
3:54
Speaker 1: piece that we're missing, I think so, because if there's
3:57
Speaker 1: no DNA evidence that implicates him. And again That's another thing.
4:02
Speaker 1: Without going off on a tangent again, that really troubles
4:04
Speaker 1: me about this case is that there is a ton
4:06
Speaker 1: There was a ton of evidence in the house and
4:08
Speaker 1: a lot of blood. So why was there no usable forensics?
4:13
Speaker 1: Why was there no usable DNA evidence? You know, if
4:17
Speaker 1: Chris did this, why is there no DNA? Is it
4:22
Speaker 1: because it was messed up or because it wasn't there.
4:27
Speaker 1: We've explored the police theory that Chris killed Rebecca in
4:30
Speaker 1: a drug fueled rage and that his friend JB helped
4:33
Speaker 1: him clean up. We've concluded that this doesn't make sense.
4:36
Speaker 1: It seems like Chris and JB were in the frame
4:39
Speaker 1: because a they were both involved in drugs and b
4:43
Speaker 1: they had both talked to Rebecca recently. And since we
4:46
Speaker 1: saw the autopsy report, it looks more and more like
4:49
Speaker 1: Rebecca's murder was unplanned and a crime of passion, but
4:53
Speaker 1: not a drug fueled rage. I don't buy the theory
4:57
Speaker 1: that there is no DNA from Chris because he got lucky.
5:01
Speaker 1: Chris's DNA is not there because Chris was never there.
5:04
Speaker 1: But if they he didn't kill Rebecca, who did? Now
5:08
Speaker 1: we need to go back to another rumor we've heard
5:10
Speaker 1: about the murder that a female or a group of
5:13
Speaker 1: people including a female, killed Rebecca, and that group's centers
5:17
Speaker 1: around Jennifer. Jennifer is the common thread of everyone in
5:21
Speaker 1: the group, and at the time of Rebecca's murder, Jennifer
5:24
Speaker 1: was dating Rebecca's ex boyfriend, Justin and she was pregnant
5:28
Speaker 1: with his child at the time. Jennifer was also good
5:32
Speaker 1: friends with Cindy, who was dating Chris. She knew JB
5:36
Speaker 1: too because he lived in her rental house, and also
5:39
Speaker 1: Jennifer knew Casey from working at Sonic. Several witnesses have
5:43
Speaker 1: told us that Jennifer got into an argument with Rebecca
5:46
Speaker 1: over Justin on at least one occasion. We've heard sometimes
5:49
Speaker 1: the fights turned physical, and Rebecca was not the kind
5:52
Speaker 1: of girl to back down from a fight. Several members
5:56
Speaker 1: of Rebecca's family have mentioned feeling like Jennifer may have
5:59
Speaker 1: been involved in some way. The police say that Jennifer
6:02
Speaker 1: had an alibi for the day of the murder. They
6:04
Speaker 1: claimed she was shopping and say there are credit card
6:06
Speaker 1: receipts to back this up. But again, since they aren't
6:09
Speaker 1: sharing any information with us, we can't rule her out
6:12
Speaker 1: until we verify the information ourselves. Oh hey, it's it's
6:21
Speaker 1: Catherine Townsend. Oh, I forgot sure. This is Shirley, Rebecca's mother.
6:30
Speaker 1: The last time she talked to her daughter was on Sunday,
6:33
Speaker 1: the day before Rebecca was murdered. Rebecca was in Harp's
6:37
Speaker 1: grocery store with Casey, and as she chatted with her mother,
6:40
Speaker 1: she told her that she was running out of minutes
6:42
Speaker 1: and would call her back. It's a call that Shirley
6:45
Speaker 1: never received. Were you reading a mont how Raymond's side there?
6:50
Speaker 1: And I'm looking for Rebecca all day long duringut the day,
6:56
Speaker 1: and we were stopping traffic on the road in front
7:01
Speaker 1: of that where that trailer was and asking people if
7:04
Speaker 1: they had seen Rebecca own the car, and people comment
7:07
Speaker 1: and it's a small place. Yeah, there was a car
7:09
Speaker 1: load of people that were stopped with her and we
7:14
Speaker 1: were trying to find out who it was. And I
7:16
Speaker 1: can't remember, but it was unifor in now, but it
7:19
Speaker 1: was a car load of them. But I'm okay, it's
7:23
Speaker 1: dangerous trying to get it from her. I've heard you know,
7:27
Speaker 1: she may be responsible for the deaths of her parents,
7:29
Speaker 1: maybe other people. Certainly, even if she didn't do any
7:32
Speaker 1: of that. She's still a tough girl, you know. I
7:34
Speaker 1: mean that's putting it really lightly. So you were there
7:38
Speaker 1: that week you're looking for Rebecca, When did you When
7:41
Speaker 1: did Jennifer's name first come up for you? Oh? Right up,
7:45
Speaker 1: right away, right away? Because that was the car load
7:48
Speaker 1: of people. This is the first I've heard of a
7:50
Speaker 1: car load of people confronting Rebecca. We need to look
7:54
Speaker 1: into this. As we keep talking, Shirley tells me a
7:57
Speaker 1: story about some earrings she gave Rebecca. You could call it.
8:00
Speaker 1: Google it on the internet, where they'd make them in Mexico,
8:04
Speaker 1: your gold hearing. And then this guy that I knew,
8:09
Speaker 1: he went to Mexico and he brought them back and
8:12
Speaker 1: he gave them to me because he liked me. But
8:15
Speaker 1: Rebecca asked me to borrow up hearing aid here and
8:20
Speaker 1: it's the Lord's prayer. I think you have to have
8:22
Speaker 1: a magnifying glass to see. But there's their goals and
8:26
Speaker 1: the Lord's prayers written up. If you ever ran Jennifer,
8:29
Speaker 1: look at her ears because I figured, you know, to gott.
8:33
Speaker 1: I haven't seen or heard about any earrings in Rebecca's
8:36
Speaker 1: belongings or that she was wearing any at the time
8:39
Speaker 1: of her death. So was Shirley mistaken or could the
8:43
Speaker 1: killer of taking the earrings as a souvenir. I know
8:46
Speaker 1: who did it, I just want to foot behind bars.
8:56
Speaker 1: Over the years, Rebecca's father, Larry, has gotten hundreds of
9:00
Speaker 1: tips and conducted an exhaustive investigation, and one day he
9:04
Speaker 1: got a letter from unlikely source. Brian Bangs. Brian is
9:09
Speaker 1: Jennifer's x husband. He's also a convicted double murderer. He
9:15
Speaker 1: killed Jennifer's parents. Brian was found guilty of two counts
9:20
Speaker 1: of capital murder in the deaths of his mother in
9:22
Speaker 1: law and father in law. He was also convicted of rape,
9:25
Speaker 1: class B felony, kidnapping, and first degree felony battery of
9:29
Speaker 1: his wife. Jennifer. Well, I didn't know the story behind Brian.
9:34
Speaker 1: I had to research the story, and I know that
9:38
Speaker 1: the first time he reached out to me, I think
9:42
Speaker 1: he I believe he told me bits and pieces of it.
9:45
Speaker 1: He was given two life sentences plus eighty five years.
9:49
Speaker 1: He's currently serving as sentence in the Cummins Unit of
9:52
Speaker 1: the Arkansas Department of Corrections with no possibility of parole.
9:57
Speaker 1: Brian has maintained his innocence over the years, but at trial,
10:02
Speaker 1: the prosecutors presented a compelling case. They that Brian went
10:06
Speaker 1: to Jennifer's parents' house and hid in the bathroom shower.
10:09
Speaker 1: He waited until the family went to sleep at around
10:12
Speaker 1: ten thirty pm, then crept through the house to the
10:15
Speaker 1: bedroom and shot them in their bed. After shooting Jennifer's parents,
10:22
Speaker 1: Jennifer testified that Brian yanked her up out of the bed,
10:26
Speaker 1: hit her in the head with a gun, and dragged
10:28
Speaker 1: her through the hallway by her foot, leaving bloodstains on
10:31
Speaker 1: the carpet. He tied her up and eventually drove her
10:35
Speaker 1: into the woods where he attacked her. As I got
10:38
Speaker 1: talking to other people that were familiar with what had
10:41
Speaker 1: taken place, I realized that some of the same players
10:45
Speaker 1: were involved with Debs. In his letters to Larry, Brian
10:49
Speaker 1: wrote that he believes Jennifer is a sociopathic killer who
10:53
Speaker 1: was involved in Rebecca's death and in the death of
10:55
Speaker 1: her parents. In one of his appeals, Brian claimed that
10:59
Speaker 1: Jennifer's mother was sitting up in the bed when he
11:02
Speaker 1: shot her, and then he merely clicked and began shooting. However,
11:06
Speaker 1: the medical examiner testified that both of Jennifer's parents' injuries
11:10
Speaker 1: were consistent with their lying asleep in bed when they
11:13
Speaker 1: were shot. I think part of Brian's motive in wanting
11:17
Speaker 1: to assist us with Rebecca's case is the fact that
11:19
Speaker 1: he thinks helping find her killer might help him. And
11:23
Speaker 1: obviously we have to take anything he says with a
11:26
Speaker 1: massive grain of salt. But if him believing that his
11:29
Speaker 1: case will turn into the next West Memphis three will
11:32
Speaker 1: get him to talk about Rebecca, I'm all for doing
11:34
Speaker 1: an interview. I gave Brian a little bit of the
11:38
Speaker 1: benefit of the doubt to start with, and I felt
11:41
Speaker 1: like maybe exploring it. So I had an individual go
11:44
Speaker 1: down there and talk to him and determine what the
11:48
Speaker 1: actual story was, and also to give me an opinion
11:52
Speaker 1: of the veracity of what his statements were. And the
11:56
Speaker 1: feeling was that he was being truthful. And then I
12:00
Speaker 1: finally decided much later to try to go to see him.
12:03
Speaker 1: And then you have to get all kinds of approof
12:06
Speaker 1: and they ended up, according to him, they denied us
12:10
Speaker 1: right to get together. Now I'm trying to get permission
12:13
Speaker 1: to see him right now, and it'd be interesting to
12:14
Speaker 1: see you know what he says now about all that
12:17
Speaker 1: and if it's changed, And they, of course they said
12:19
Speaker 1: we filled our forms out wrong. So now we're kind
12:21
Speaker 1: of maybe going through a version of what you went through.
12:24
Speaker 1: We'll see. I've been trying to organize a visit with Brian,
12:27
Speaker 1: but I keep getting denied. As a licensed private investigator,
12:30
Speaker 1: I was required to pass a fairly stringent background check,
12:33
Speaker 1: so I find this refusal a bit strange, and no
12:37
Speaker 1: one will tell me why I've been refused. It's things
12:40
Speaker 1: like that that happened to you that make you go
12:42
Speaker 1: why what? What are people trying to protect here? Finally,
12:49
Speaker 1: after a week of back and forth, Taylor gets approved.
12:52
Speaker 1: She logs on and can see Brian sitting in the
12:55
Speaker 1: middle of a public area in the prison. Hey Brian,
12:58
Speaker 1: so what's been going on? How's everything going? So one
13:04
Speaker 1: day of the time. Video conferencing with the prisoner is
13:07
Speaker 1: a bit surreal because you feel like you're right there
13:09
Speaker 1: in the prison. You can see the other inmates behind
13:13
Speaker 1: the person you're talking with, playing cards on cold metal
13:16
Speaker 1: tables and walking around in their wife beaters. Brian is
13:19
Speaker 1: in his fifties and he still sports a mustache. He
13:22
Speaker 1: has thick, round framed glasses that are oddly fashionable. Brian
13:26
Speaker 1: wears earbuds and mentions he likes listening to music. He
13:30
Speaker 1: writes in one of his letters to Taylor to download
13:32
Speaker 1: Princess of the Dawn by the group Except branches up
13:36
Speaker 1: with Don. What exactly was the timeline of your relationship
13:45
Speaker 1: with Jennifer? Brian's video feed starts to sputter. He freezes
13:49
Speaker 1: up in digital static as he talks, Well, we doing
13:52
Speaker 1: each other. That's where we're key is when she done
13:55
Speaker 1: six things, she started working at Beta Hut, and one
13:59
Speaker 1: of the guys that she went to school with around
14:02
Speaker 1: with me all the time, and he kept telling me
14:07
Speaker 1: when he's going out to the Jennifer. And finally we
14:10
Speaker 1: went my Pizza Hut and got st to drink and
14:14
Speaker 1: she started talking with me, and after she got off
14:19
Speaker 1: work that night, she started chasing me around and pretty
14:24
Speaker 1: much until she called me. And now that was from
14:29
Speaker 1: May of ninety three until we started sticking together in
14:35
Speaker 1: October ninety three, and our relationship just forgiving them then
14:42
Speaker 1: and when he ended up getting married and having a
14:44
Speaker 1: fun after my Bay the drivers got killed, we was
14:48
Speaker 1: in a car wreck and he got killed and I
14:52
Speaker 1: tied it well, you know, he got killed on a Thursday.
14:55
Speaker 1: We buried him on a Sunday, and she just said
14:57
Speaker 1: nothing to me, is Jack. Everything was fine. We wept
15:02
Speaker 1: together right now, we dinner together right now, went to
15:05
Speaker 1: bed the other got up. The next morning, she got
15:09
Speaker 1: up and go to work and I got up to
15:12
Speaker 1: go to work and she never come home. In late
15:17
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety six, Brian got into a car wreck and
15:20
Speaker 1: shortly after that Jennifer left him. Next Sunday is when
15:24
Speaker 1: I got tolded you on Monday. I think they was
15:26
Speaker 1: still on a Sunday, and I was charged on the
15:29
Speaker 1: next day or the next day. Time, my dad, When
15:32
Speaker 1: did you originally hear about Rebecca's case? Somebody sent me
15:39
Speaker 1: news never quitting and they wrote in the bottom of
15:41
Speaker 1: it strange but jimfers players to be involved in that.
15:49
Speaker 1: And then after that, when did you reach out to Larry?
15:58
Speaker 1: It probably took a while after that. Now Brian has
16:02
Speaker 1: been writing Larry letters for years and offered to help
16:05
Speaker 1: him with Rebecca's case, and a lot of what he
16:07
Speaker 1: writes can only qualify as jailhouse rumors and unqualified leads.
16:11
Speaker 1: He claims that his ex wife and other members of
16:14
Speaker 1: her family were involved in Jennifer's parents murder. Some of
16:17
Speaker 1: his claims in the letters are bizarre. He said that
16:20
Speaker 1: he spoke to someone in prison who told him that
16:22
Speaker 1: Rebecca was tortured and held hostage for several days on
16:25
Speaker 1: a mattress, But it was in the first letter that
16:27
Speaker 1: he pointed the finger at Jennifer. Different people come through
16:30
Speaker 1: here that I spoke with and everything, and after that one,
16:34
Speaker 1: I've got a hold of Hilary and from you know,
16:37
Speaker 1: because I heard from more than one person that Jennifer
16:40
Speaker 1: was connected with it, and I to trying to give
16:43
Speaker 1: him some sort of closure, you know, days, you know,
16:47
Speaker 1: Taylor asked Brian about what Jennifer's motive may have been
16:50
Speaker 1: if she killed Rebecca. They would have been over. Just
16:58
Speaker 1: from I understanding, Rebecca and Justin were a couple, and
17:06
Speaker 1: then Jennifer started dating, and then Jennifer got pregnant, and uh,
17:14
Speaker 1: she don't really been a new Rebecca, Wasn't it? A
17:16
Speaker 1: number of times at the time of Rebecca's murder, Jennifer
17:20
Speaker 1: was pregnant with Justin's baby, she was jealous of Rebecca,
17:23
Speaker 1: and they were no longer friends. Brian has sent us
17:27
Speaker 1: a bunch of witness statements, but none of them have
17:29
Speaker 1: notary seals, so I'm not sure how legit they are.
17:33
Speaker 1: I've got newspaper clippings that I've got out of three
17:37
Speaker 1: different papers. I'm not a witness statement him and his wife.
17:42
Speaker 1: They witnessed Jennifer and Rebecca of a fight and a
17:45
Speaker 1: physical altercation at a place called Reno's and made port
17:49
Speaker 1: the gas station. And then I've got another witness statement
17:53
Speaker 1: that that I can't remember. I call this what I've got,
17:58
Speaker 1: But anyway, he wrote down that he was at a
18:01
Speaker 1: party in Leslie and Jim for injustins Or. We know
18:07
Speaker 1: that people in town are scared of Jennifer, but is
18:11
Speaker 1: she really capable of murder? And on that morning would
18:15
Speaker 1: she have had a reason to target Rebecca? And Jennifer
18:18
Speaker 1: got into an argument with some people and she pulled
18:21
Speaker 1: out a pistol and waved it around and made some
18:24
Speaker 1: threatening statements for the crowd. If like one day she
18:27
Speaker 1: would be somebody else, and then maybe an hour later
18:31
Speaker 1: she talking to somebody totally different and different person, and
18:38
Speaker 1: and if she gets mad at you, she just hers
18:41
Speaker 1: is kind of blackout, h that she just wants to fight.
18:46
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's hard to explain. People just say
18:52
Speaker 1: to die around her, you know. I don't know. If
18:59
Speaker 1: you come up with any names that you know her
19:01
Speaker 1: around her coming this play, let me know one. I'll
19:03
Speaker 1: try to speak with them, all right, Hi, Brian, believe you?
19:08
Speaker 1: Bye bye bye. Brian makes some pretty incredible claims, and
19:15
Speaker 1: after talking with him, I don't feel comfortable accepting them
19:18
Speaker 1: as fact. But his offer to be our man on
19:21
Speaker 1: the inside if we need information from anyone else in
19:24
Speaker 1: jail is one I'll keep in my back pocket like
19:27
Speaker 1: everyone else. In this case, Rebecca had several different sides
19:30
Speaker 1: to her personality. According to Danielle, she was a person
19:34
Speaker 1: who would take the shirt off her back to help
19:36
Speaker 1: a friend in trouble, but she also did not shy
19:39
Speaker 1: away from conflict. Multiple witnesses, friends, and family all say
19:44
Speaker 1: that Rebecca got into arguments with a few different women
19:46
Speaker 1: before she died. In addition to Jennifer, we've also heard
19:51
Speaker 1: that Rebecca had argued with Teresa. She's Jennifer's cousin and
19:55
Speaker 1: also worked at Sonic with Casey Forgets six degrees of separation.
20:00
Speaker 1: In this case, there seemed to be at most too
20:03
Speaker 1: we talked to Teresa and she She says that Rebecca
20:06
Speaker 1: had been living with her and they got into a
20:08
Speaker 1: fight of her unpaid bills. After Rebecca left the house
20:11
Speaker 1: without saying anything, Teresa told us they had another argument
20:14
Speaker 1: at Sonic. Teresa also said that Rebecca's dog was shot
20:19
Speaker 1: just a few weeks before her murder. Rebecca was crying
20:23
Speaker 1: at Sonic and Teresa hugged her. She told us that
20:26
Speaker 1: she was relieved that they had made up before she died.
20:29
Speaker 1: We need to understand more about Rebecca's history with Jennifer,
20:33
Speaker 1: and we have to be careful when we talk about
20:35
Speaker 1: Rebecca's case in public, because you never know who will
20:38
Speaker 1: be around. So we go back to Rebecca's sister, Danielle.
20:43
Speaker 1: Jennifer's ex has been calling the cops and telling them
20:47
Speaker 1: that she did it. Like also like he's been saying that, so,
20:51
Speaker 1: I mean, who knows, he says. I know he's a
20:53
Speaker 1: convicted criminal, but but she should have went down with
20:56
Speaker 1: him then, And you know, Jennifer's just not a good person.
21:02
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of jealousy from Jennifer to Rebecca.
21:08
Speaker 1: I mean, I could see why, but I could Seecauseurecca
21:11
Speaker 1: was gorgeous and what was justin Rebecca's relationship, Like, they
21:17
Speaker 1: were together for over seven years, they lived together, they
21:25
Speaker 1: were they were normal. I mean, they may have fought
21:29
Speaker 1: a few times, but they were together and then they
21:33
Speaker 1: split up. And do you think he was still in
21:37
Speaker 1: love with her? Oh? Yeah, I do. Were they still
21:45
Speaker 1: involved in any way at the time that she died,
21:50
Speaker 1: Not that I know of, and he was involved with Jennifer.
21:54
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm just wondering if Jennifer would have gotten
21:57
Speaker 1: mad enough, if you know, like, if it's like, how
22:02
Speaker 1: well do you know Jennifer, you think she could get
22:03
Speaker 1: mad enough to do it? Yeah, I just don't know why.
22:10
Speaker 1: The costs are so like ruled Jennifer out so fast
22:13
Speaker 1: based on some shopping receipts, you know, like when I
22:16
Speaker 1: have heard more than one person that she it seems
22:20
Speaker 1: very honest. So we got it, We got life. Nick
22:22
Speaker 1: always said, because Nick was related to Jennifer, we always
22:26
Speaker 1: said it had something to do with the previous with
22:30
Speaker 1: her parents. That's how she got out of that, and
22:33
Speaker 1: something with her lawyer. Then there was something there and
22:38
Speaker 1: that's why she got out of the prior thing with
22:42
Speaker 1: Okay parents, So you know, maybe that's long or not
22:49
Speaker 1: going after her. I don't say to you understand, yes
22:51
Speaker 1: I do. After talking with Danielle, it seems clear that
22:56
Speaker 1: there are definitely some tangled relationships between Jennifer, Rebecca, and
23:00
Speaker 1: Justin that we need to sort out and just our luck.
23:03
Speaker 1: Jennifer skipped town and she's staying in Florida. Jennifer ended
23:06
Speaker 1: up marrying Justin and they had a daughter together, but
23:09
Speaker 1: they eventually divorced and Justin's remarried. Now, Justin was the
23:13
Speaker 1: love of Rebecca's life for years, but Jennifer was pregnant
23:16
Speaker 1: with his child at the time Rebecca was murdered. Could
23:20
Speaker 1: this have been a motive for him to cover for her?
23:24
Speaker 1: Like so many people in this case, people's opinion of
23:27
Speaker 1: Justin depends on who you're talking to. Some say he's
23:31
Speaker 1: a sweetheart, Others claim he's an abusive monster. Jennifer and
23:35
Speaker 1: Justin are finally a part. They were back and forth
23:38
Speaker 1: three years that the people who cared about Rebecca like
23:41
Speaker 1: they want to talk about this. You can almost like
23:44
Speaker 1: feel it in the air around here. People want to
23:46
Speaker 1: talk about this shit. You know something's going to happen.
23:50
Speaker 1: People have told me Justin's you know, really cares about
23:52
Speaker 1: this case. Jennifer didn't like Rebecca, so I find it vvery.
23:56
Speaker 1: She'll probably shut the door in our face no matter what,
23:58
Speaker 1: you know, and I mean even if she was here.
24:00
Speaker 1: So I don't think we're gonna get that much from her.
24:02
Speaker 1: Since we can't get to Jennifer, Justin is who need
24:05
Speaker 1: to find next. I write him a letter explaining who
24:08
Speaker 1: we are and what we're doing and put it into
24:11
Speaker 1: a sealed envelope. All right, so we're going to find Justin.
24:17
Speaker 1: He now works at a boat place. Yeah, we got
24:21
Speaker 1: he was working construction and I think that project finished,
24:24
Speaker 1: and we got a message, we got a tip. So
24:27
Speaker 1: we're gonna go to his work, and I think this
24:31
Speaker 1: is our best shot at getting him by himself, and
24:34
Speaker 1: worst case, he's not there, and we leave the letter
24:38
Speaker 1: and then he calls us back. One three miles, take
24:41
Speaker 1: a sea turn on to Mabel Drive either way either way,
24:46
Speaker 1: it's better to do it this way rather than walk
24:49
Speaker 1: up to his house. He and his wife could get
24:51
Speaker 1: in a confrontation, or she could just get involved. And
24:54
Speaker 1: a lot of times the new wife will get protective,
24:57
Speaker 1: and you know, she doesn't really need to be involved.
24:59
Speaker 1: We need to get him by himself. I'm kind of scared.
25:02
Speaker 1: I don't know why. I'm just nervous. I'm I'd be
25:06
Speaker 1: lying if I said I wasn't nervous. All right, here
25:09
Speaker 1: it is turn wow, it really is right by the
25:12
Speaker 1: court complex. Arrived, should work here, We should be heard here.
25:18
Speaker 1: We walk in and ask for Justin and we're pointed
25:21
Speaker 1: around back to the break area. But you can go
25:24
Speaker 1: around the building here. Oh god, outside the break room,
25:27
Speaker 1: there's gonna be some people like smoking. Got you? Okay,
25:31
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you? Definitely Hey, which my find Justin?
25:40
Speaker 1: A guy comes up to help us. Oh, we're on
25:43
Speaker 1: lockdright mouth, she said. He pokes his head into a
25:46
Speaker 1: door and comes back. Now there can we can we
25:51
Speaker 1: leave a letter for him? Which all mind? Will you
25:53
Speaker 1: give it to home? All right? Thank you, thank you,
26:00
Speaker 1: thank you. Taylor and I head back to the car
26:03
Speaker 1: on all. I wish we'd gotten him, but like, considering
26:07
Speaker 1: we didn't, we found he's definitely here. We could have
26:09
Speaker 1: driven around and not found him. Yeah, we found him.
26:12
Speaker 1: He's gonna also know we know where he works. Yeah,
26:15
Speaker 1: Like so it's almost like not you can't hide in
26:18
Speaker 1: a sinister way, but you kind of can't hide. Later
26:21
Speaker 1: that day, my phone rings, It's Justin. We'll be right back.
26:31
Speaker 1: After getting our letter, Justin calls us, and he and
26:34
Speaker 1: his wife agree to meet us at a local pizza shops.
26:37
Speaker 1: So you're Caroline's sister. Yeah, I've seen Larry's photos of
26:42
Speaker 1: Justin and Rebecca from high school when they were together.
26:45
Speaker 1: Back then, he looked like a sweet kid, skinny tan
26:49
Speaker 1: with shiny black hair, all dressed up for the prom
26:52
Speaker 1: and a tucks with Rebecca on his arm. I've also
26:55
Speaker 1: seen his mugshot. He's older, harder looking, his hair has
27:00
Speaker 1: lost that shine, and his eyes are sunken in. He's unrecognizable.
27:04
Speaker 1: He just tell us little bit about Rebecca. Uh, yeah,
27:09
Speaker 1: she was. She was my girlfriend in like tenth grade
27:13
Speaker 1: in high school until just probably a week before that
27:17
Speaker 1: happened to her. I mean she she meant everything to me.
27:23
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, we was, uh it was like that,
27:27
Speaker 1: you know, it was like best friends and and uh,
27:32
Speaker 1: I don't know, it was just the worst thing that
27:34
Speaker 1: ever happened to me a week. That's surprising. According to Danielle,
27:40
Speaker 1: Rebecca and Justin had been broken up for a year. Yeah,
27:43
Speaker 1: I mean she was just a na suspers she ever made,
27:47
Speaker 1: and I don't know, she had the biggest start in
27:51
Speaker 1: the world failure how much all over the Baker. I
27:53
Speaker 1: mean I named my daughter the Baker. I mean I
27:57
Speaker 1: just like you said, And I know it's hard on everybody,
28:04
Speaker 1: like but it's tell people. Yeah, yeah, so that's what
28:10
Speaker 1: I said, you know what I mean. Yeah, that is
28:12
Speaker 1: hard on worthy, you know, for be done. Justin's wife
28:20
Speaker 1: seems shy and a bit nervous at first, but she's
28:23
Speaker 1: very helpful and seems sincere and it's clear that she
28:26
Speaker 1: wants to help her husband get closure. Yeah that's something
28:30
Speaker 1: that's like, wait on him for I know the whole
28:33
Speaker 1: time we've been together, and would help and help him
28:36
Speaker 1: so much. No, that's what I'm saying. I laugh to forget.
28:41
Speaker 1: I remember I was in the car with her, and
28:43
Speaker 1: I remember we wrote up down by the ballpark. She's
28:46
Speaker 1: his name with us. She gotta go over to her.
28:51
Speaker 1: It's like, I don't When he talks about the last
28:55
Speaker 1: time he saw Rebecca, Justin stares out the window and
28:59
Speaker 1: for a second I can tell he's right back in
29:01
Speaker 1: that ball field. I can't imagine, like what, yeah, what
29:06
Speaker 1: that effect could have on you. She's moving forward not
29:09
Speaker 1: knowing what you know, what's happened. Yeah, it's you know,
29:13
Speaker 1: I mean it bought him every day. I got real
29:16
Speaker 1: bad on drugs after it happened and just kind of
29:19
Speaker 1: went downhill and just kept digging. So yeah, it has
29:26
Speaker 1: a tough it has the on me. Do you remember
29:31
Speaker 1: when you heard that she was missing. Yeah, I was
29:34
Speaker 1: in uh, turning to Mississippi with my dad at casino.
29:40
Speaker 1: The phone started ringing there and it was her shyestery Danielle.
29:46
Speaker 1: They was hoping she was with me, you know, and
29:49
Speaker 1: what she was and and uh, I told him, you
29:54
Speaker 1: know that I would come to look for right end,
29:57
Speaker 1: you know, and I did so. He also remembers the
30:01
Speaker 1: investigation because he became a suspect along with and it
30:06
Speaker 1: was like six months down the line. I mean, I'm
30:10
Speaker 1: sitting here thinking that they're getting closer to soul in
30:12
Speaker 1: this case, you know. And was I wrong? Because then
30:18
Speaker 1: they get me up there and then my eggs and
30:22
Speaker 1: I mean intergurated is bad. I mean together their hands separately.
30:27
Speaker 1: They was telling me how I done it, things like that,
30:31
Speaker 1: you know, almost like those want me to just tell them.
30:34
Speaker 1: I doney Justin says he helped the family with the search,
30:37
Speaker 1: but six months later, he and Jennifer both got called
30:40
Speaker 1: in for questioning did you and did you ever talk
30:43
Speaker 1: about the murder? Yeah? I mean I really can't remember
30:51
Speaker 1: how much about talking about it. I mean she came
30:53
Speaker 1: over there, she was there with me helping look for it.
30:56
Speaker 1: As we're talking, I keep watching Justin's new wife. She
31:00
Speaker 1: looks down like she wants to say something, just because
31:02
Speaker 1: I've like experienced her since being with him. But that
31:08
Speaker 1: was with her for twelve years, you know, and God
31:11
Speaker 1: helped me if I went to sleep with her there.
31:14
Speaker 1: If she's that type of person, you know what I'm saying. Yeah, well,
31:19
Speaker 1: I think got heard from the things she's said to me,
31:22
Speaker 1: like she's she's crazy. This girl she does a lot
31:26
Speaker 1: of thread and stuff like that. And yeah, in the
31:31
Speaker 1: years they've been together, Justin's wife has experienced Jennifer's explosive tendency.
31:35
Speaker 1: Is firsthand. I know that when domestic violence has involved
31:39
Speaker 1: in relationships, people can have two sides to their personality.
31:44
Speaker 1: I asked Justin about Jennifer's alibi. Where was she supposedly
31:48
Speaker 1: on that one day she was supposedly in Conway. She
31:54
Speaker 1: kept all of hevery keet. We lived in Perryville at
31:58
Speaker 1: the time, me and her in that apartment. Perryville is
32:02
Speaker 1: thirty five minutes from Conway outside of Little Rock. That's
32:05
Speaker 1: about two hours from Melbourne in Mountain View. And she
32:09
Speaker 1: was supposedly on camera and had received from doing shopping
32:13
Speaker 1: and Conway. That's that's like all I can remember about it.
32:16
Speaker 1: But would Jennifer known where Casey lived? Do you think
32:22
Speaker 1: sting On he was gone? She used to be his
32:25
Speaker 1: manager at Melbournsonia don't know that, so yeah, she probably did.
32:31
Speaker 1: Do you know if Jennifer and Casey were like friends
32:34
Speaker 1: or just they weren't. I'm terrified of her, yeah, I
32:38
Speaker 1: mean I hate she is too. I mean, but she
32:40
Speaker 1: has a reason to be outfore we feel luck and
32:42
Speaker 1: then just the stuff she says and stuff. I think
32:46
Speaker 1: Rebecca could have held her own letter, Yeah, I really did.
32:50
Speaker 1: Rebecca was a scrapper. Yeah. I thank God for y'all.
32:53
Speaker 1: I mean, God bless you for that. Yeah. Yeah, I mean,
32:57
Speaker 1: I'm just so glad that somebody's doing that, and Rebecca
33:00
Speaker 1: deserves to have somebody for yeah, especially like you you know,
33:04
Speaker 1: somebody tell me like he really needs to be in
33:07
Speaker 1: her corner. Who cares and knew what was going on.
33:10
Speaker 1: I am, I promise your thank you. Justin and his
33:17
Speaker 1: wife leave, and Taylor and I look at each other.
33:20
Speaker 1: We're both thinking the same thing. That torment about Bez
33:24
Speaker 1: is genuine. You can see her like you can see it.
33:30
Speaker 1: Also totally didn't have to help her come forward. It
33:33
Speaker 1: sounds like they were together a lot closer to the time.
33:39
Speaker 1: She's the first person that we can actually put like
33:42
Speaker 1: she knew where to go. Yeah, so Justin just told
33:47
Speaker 1: us that he and Rebecca were dating until just a
33:50
Speaker 1: week before she was murdered. Could Jennifer have found out
33:54
Speaker 1: that Justin was still seeing Rebecca and gotten into a
33:56
Speaker 1: confrontation with her over the weekend that she decided to
33:59
Speaker 1: finish on Monday morning, after we leave the pizza place
34:05
Speaker 1: and get back in the car, Taylor and I regroup
34:08
Speaker 1: after our conversation with Justin. We have a lot to unpack.
34:12
Speaker 1: Several times during this investigation, we've heard that Rebecca's murder
34:16
Speaker 1: involved more than one person, and that those people were
34:19
Speaker 1: at a party over the weekend. We called George Jarrett
34:23
Speaker 1: and tell us to meet us back at dad's house
34:25
Speaker 1: to go over the murder board. There's a couple of
34:26
Speaker 1: details that just and you know, being a private investigator
34:30
Speaker 1: in addition to being a journalist, that just stood out
34:32
Speaker 1: to me from the beginning. The folded clothes, sheets in
34:36
Speaker 1: the washer, the fact that there was an attempt to
34:40
Speaker 1: clean the house up right, I don't think a guy
34:44
Speaker 1: and I've covered probably over a dozen capital murder cases,
34:49
Speaker 1: you know. The first case in that that in that
34:52
Speaker 1: Creekside Bones book that I wrote it, The first case
34:56
Speaker 1: in there is about, you know, a father and son
34:58
Speaker 1: who are convicted of ruthlessly slaughtering this family for they
35:02
Speaker 1: didn't clean up the crime scene. I mean when they
35:05
Speaker 1: went in that one of the murder weapons was still
35:07
Speaker 1: laying in the little girl stuffed animals. I mean, so
35:11
Speaker 1: they left, they left a lot of evidence. And so
35:15
Speaker 1: it seems to me like it would be something more
35:17
Speaker 1: like a female will do. Now, is it possible. I'm
35:19
Speaker 1: a pretty cleanly guy. I cleaned my house all the time.
35:22
Speaker 1: I'm very nipiggy. So is it possible? Yes, But if
35:25
Speaker 1: I was an investigator, I would think that would be
35:27
Speaker 1: the first place I would go. Well, I guess that's
35:31
Speaker 1: also what I've been told. I've been told Jennifer and
35:33
Speaker 1: Cindy were the girls that they that the family suspects,
35:38
Speaker 1: you know, and I guess I asked myself, you know,
35:40
Speaker 1: what's the motive if there was if they were at
35:43
Speaker 1: a party and there was a fight at the party,
35:45
Speaker 1: then it's a no brainer, you know. So then we
35:49
Speaker 1: then we would then we have a direct line leading
35:52
Speaker 1: to who the suspects in this case should be. The
35:55
Speaker 1: way things were left in that place, with the kind
35:57
Speaker 1: of ghetto not real cleanup, it brings me back to
36:00
Speaker 1: somebody went there looking for a fight, not necessarily to
36:01
Speaker 1: kill anyone, because the didn't bring a night for a gun,
36:03
Speaker 1: right or we don't know for sure, but she died
36:06
Speaker 1: from blunt forced trump according to the medical examiner. Okay,
36:09
Speaker 1: so if in fact they did it with something that
36:12
Speaker 1: was in there, happened to be in there, you know,
36:14
Speaker 1: then that even more points to a crime of passion.
36:18
Speaker 1: Crime passion. I mean, it really could have been a
36:20
Speaker 1: fight that went too far. She might have been murdered
36:23
Speaker 1: for the simple fact that they knew she'd be alone
36:24
Speaker 1: at that time there, so they knew she'd be there,
36:28
Speaker 1: But how they would know even if you knew Casey
36:32
Speaker 1: and you knew he was going to leave his house,
36:33
Speaker 1: there's no way you would know that she was there
36:35
Speaker 1: unless you just, and I hate to use this term,
36:38
Speaker 1: you just lucked out by her being there. George has
36:41
Speaker 1: a point. If this was a crime of passion, a
36:44
Speaker 1: fight that got out of hand, it would have to
36:46
Speaker 1: be someone who knew where Rebecca was. And if there
36:50
Speaker 1: was a fight, there has to be some evidence that
36:53
Speaker 1: indicates that. Are there clues in the autopsy report that
36:56
Speaker 1: could help us piece together what happened? We'll be right back.
37:07
Speaker 1: According to the autopsy report, it didn't appear that there
37:10
Speaker 1: were obvious defensive wounds. It got me wondering if Rebecca
37:14
Speaker 1: got into a fight, she would have had defensive wounds, right,
37:18
Speaker 1: But after a week of her body being out in
37:20
Speaker 1: the elements, would you be able to even tell if
37:22
Speaker 1: she had any defensive wounds. Decomposition there's real eyes on elements, right,
37:27
Speaker 1: So the hotter it is, the faster body decomposes. This
37:30
Speaker 1: is Jane Gorniac, a medical examiner in Atlanta. Some injuries
37:35
Speaker 1: are they yet they have different colors to them, So
37:39
Speaker 1: an acute or close to or around the time of
37:42
Speaker 1: death if someone has an abrasion or laceration pro with
37:45
Speaker 1: some body reaction to it, so it might be more red,
37:49
Speaker 1: it might be a little inflamed. But when you have
37:52
Speaker 1: an abrasion or elaceration after death, the tissue their body
37:56
Speaker 1: didn't react to it, so there's not that red color,
37:59
Speaker 1: so you'll probably see it as more of a yellow
38:03
Speaker 1: or drying looking. But once a by they starts decomposing.
38:06
Speaker 1: There's a lot of body changes that go along that
38:09
Speaker 1: we could even tell if it's pre or post mortem,
38:13
Speaker 1: so just depending on the tissue that's left. Also, so
38:17
Speaker 1: the tissue can get dried, depending if there's things someone's
38:20
Speaker 1: out in, you know, really hot, so the tissue can
38:23
Speaker 1: dry or we call it. The other is puture faction,
38:25
Speaker 1: where it's the bacteria that for black. I say they
38:29
Speaker 1: start having a party, so your body starts really breaking down,
38:32
Speaker 1: and it's more we call a wet decomp so that's
38:35
Speaker 1: when people get blistery and bloated and there's fluid under
38:39
Speaker 1: the skin, so that can change their appearance. So the
38:44
Speaker 1: body gets a green black discoloration to it, so that
38:48
Speaker 1: can mask any color of new abrasion or an old abrasion.
38:53
Speaker 1: So even though there were no apparent defensive wounds indicated
38:55
Speaker 1: on the autopsy report. It's possible that the decomposition of
38:59
Speaker 1: Rebecca's body could have masked those wounds, but normally a
39:03
Speaker 1: trained medical examiner would touch that. And then there's the
39:06
Speaker 1: fact that we know Rebecca was a fighter. We've heard
39:09
Speaker 1: it time and time again, so I don't think we
39:12
Speaker 1: can rule out that she would have fought with her
39:14
Speaker 1: killer that day. In fact, it's highly possible. The question
39:18
Speaker 1: is was this a fight that escalated into murder or
39:22
Speaker 1: was Rebecca surprised by her killer having to fight back
39:24
Speaker 1: in the heat of the moment as her killer swung
39:26
Speaker 1: at her. Some of the people involved in this case
39:30
Speaker 1: may have been doing drugs, but despite what the police
39:33
Speaker 1: may think, it's looking more and more unlikely that drugs
39:35
Speaker 1: were the motive for this murder. Several times during this investigation,
39:40
Speaker 1: we've heard that Rebecca's murder involved more than one person,
39:43
Speaker 1: and that those people were at a party over the weekend,
39:47
Speaker 1: but as far as we can tell, there was no party.
39:50
Speaker 1: In fact, Rebecca kind of kept her two groups of
39:52
Speaker 1: friends separate. Chris had never met Casey. We have heard
39:56
Speaker 1: that Jennifer and Rebecca got into it at a party,
39:58
Speaker 1: but it was a while back. To me, all the
40:00
Speaker 1: stories are matching up. JB's story, Chris's story. Timelines are
40:06
Speaker 1: a little uncertain because they were partying a lot at
40:10
Speaker 1: the time, but yeah, I mean all of their stories
40:14
Speaker 1: match up. Rebecca was the girl that men wanted and
40:17
Speaker 1: women wanted to be, whether they loved her or hated her.
40:21
Speaker 1: The person who killed Rebecca was obsessed with her, and
40:24
Speaker 1: now we can add a new element to our murder board,
40:26
Speaker 1: a love triangle. Jennifer is the only person so far
40:30
Speaker 1: that we know knew where Casey's house was and potentially
40:32
Speaker 1: knew Casey's work schedule and that Rebecca would be alone,
40:36
Speaker 1: and if Justin was still involved with Rebecca a week
40:38
Speaker 1: before she was killed, and when Jennifer was hormonal and
40:41
Speaker 1: pregnant with Justin's baby, jealousy starts to look like a
40:44
Speaker 1: real potential motive, But we know she had an alibi
40:48
Speaker 1: with shopping receipts as proof, and the lack of defensive
40:52
Speaker 1: wounds still gives me pause. This just doesn't seem like
40:55
Speaker 1: a girl fight that got out of hand. We still
40:58
Speaker 1: haven't found Jennifer to talk to her directly, but with
41:02
Speaker 1: what we know right now, I don't think she's the
41:04
Speaker 1: one where ultimately looking for. I'm Katherine Townsend and this
41:08
Speaker 1: is Helen Gone. Helen Gone is a joint production between
41:29
Speaker 1: How Stuff Works and School of Humans. It is written
41:32
Speaker 1: and recorded by me, Katherine Townsend. Taylor Church is our
41:36
Speaker 1: producer and story editor. Audio editing and designed by Jonathan Sleeve,
41:41
Speaker 1: mix engineer Glenn Mattulo, Audio mixing and love by Tounewelders.
41:46
Speaker 1: Executive producers Brandon Barr and Else Crowley for School of
41:49
Speaker 1: Humans and Conell Byrne and Chuck Bryant for How Stuff Works.
41:54
Speaker 1: Our field producer is James Morrison. Our researcher is Sandy Klosterman.
41:59
Speaker 1: Themon original score by Ben Solee available wherever you get
42:03
Speaker 1: your music. To dig into the investigation, please visit hellgoonepodcast
42:11
Speaker 1: dot com or follow us on social media School of
42:24
Speaker 1: Humans