Latest / Make Water Work Podcast / Catalyst Collab: Ameerah Palacios | Make Water Work 045

Transcript

Catalyst Collab: Ameerah Palacios | Make Water Work 045 · Make Water Work Podcast

0:02
I'm Isaac with 120 Water
0:04
>> and I'm Chelsea with [music] Rogue Water
0:06
and we're excited to welcome you to the
0:08
Make Water Work and Catalyst Collab.
0:29
>> [music]
0:30
>> Well, hello everyone and welcome to the
0:32
Make Water Work Catalyst Collab. This is
0:35
a special series that we're co-producing
0:38
with Chelsea Boozer from Rogue Water
0:40
Lab. Um, and these are speakers and
0:43
thinkers that connect to Catalyst, which
0:45
is an immersive water communications
0:48
event slashexperience. And so, um, we've
0:52
been really fortunate to get to feature
0:54
so many of the guides that have been
0:56
part of, um, Catalyst experiences in the
0:59
past and they're going to be part of
1:00
the, uh, upcoming Catalyst experience.
1:02
And so, Chelsea, I'm so excited that we
1:05
get to do this together. So, tell us
1:07
about our guest today. Yeah, these have
1:09
been so fun. um especially excited
1:12
excited for today's guest because she is
1:15
not only like a friend and personal
1:17
mentor but a career mentor uh for me as
1:20
well. So we have Amira Palasios. She is
1:24
the director of engagement for STB's
1:27
national um water factory. She also sits
1:30
on Rogue Water Labs uh border uh well
1:33
leadership council. So welcome.
1:36
>> Thank you for having me.
1:39
Well, thank you for joining. Um, we've
1:43
had so many great conversations um over
1:46
the past year since I met you at
1:48
Catalyst for the first time last year.
1:51
Um, but to start off this podcast, I've
1:54
never met anyone who didn't have a story
1:57
about how water found them. So, Amamira,
1:59
how did water find you?
2:01
>> So, you could say I found my flow into
2:04
water. Um really uh it's for me it
2:07
started with storytelling and working in
2:10
the public sector as a public
2:12
information officer and this foundation
2:15
of just looking at information and
2:17
asking that key question of um how is
2:21
this shared and depending on how we
2:23
share information that either produces
2:25
trust or produces skepticism. So even
2:28
when I work journalists there's this
2:30
sense of well how do we put facts
2:32
together and tell a story? How do we
2:34
make content delicious? What how do we
2:36
make people want to lean in and learn
2:38
about something? And so that that has
2:40
always been my foundation looking at
2:43
storytelling and um public information.
2:45
And then when I started working in the
2:47
public sector, it became more of um how
2:50
can we make sure that the public is
2:51
informed that they know what to do? How
2:54
can we make sure that they understand
2:56
how this situation or what's going on,
2:58
how it impacts community and their lives
3:00
and and what they can do with
3:02
information. So, so much of being in
3:04
water has been about um being
3:07
missiondriven and really looking at the
3:10
opportunity of using public information
3:14
um as a means to invite people in and to
3:16
listen and to and tell a very delicious
3:19
story that keeps um keeps us informed
3:22
also just just a little entertained.
3:25
>> I love that you said delicious. I think
3:28
in the water sector we we need to
3:30
completely change how we look at
3:32
communicating and um you know not just
3:35
communicating at you have so much
3:38
background in history and I also love
3:40
your story from journalism to public
3:42
education to um the water sector. You
3:45
have so much background in helping
3:47
utilities and public agencies build
3:49
trust navigate through crisis and and
3:52
hopefully we'll get into some of those
3:53
stories today too. I guess just to
3:56
start, how do you define the difference
3:59
between just the um compliance driven
4:02
outreach that you know we have to do in
4:04
the sector versus genuine community
4:06
engagement?
4:08
>> Yeah. Uh compliance driven outreach
4:10
really we're answering a question. What
4:13
are we required to do and what are we
4:15
required to say? Right. Again, focusing
4:18
in on the requirement. Authentic
4:20
community engagement answers a different
4:22
question. what do we need people to
4:24
understand and to trust for this to be
4:26
successful? And so though those things
4:28
are related, but they're not the same.
4:31
>> Yeah.
4:32
>> I find that um a lot of the the
4:34
templates and things that compliance
4:37
driven communication kind of forces on
4:39
utilities, they're not necessarily
4:41
designed for us to communicate well, but
4:43
they're there. They're a resource.
4:45
They're a start, but they shouldn't be
4:46
the endgame. U we should be looking at
4:49
those those templates and things as a
4:50
foundation. we should be really leaning
4:53
into how we can um best communicate
4:56
with, you know, stakeholders and the
4:59
public and elected officials to really
5:01
um help them understand and and trust um
5:05
throughout the situation.
5:06
>> Yeah.
5:09
>> I I love to, you know, these templates
5:11
are resources so people grab on to them,
5:14
but they really weren't meant to be the
5:16
end all be all. Like this is all you do
5:18
and you check your box. Um, but I also
5:22
understand it can be scary to genuinely
5:24
engage because that means you're
5:25
listening and getting feedback and how
5:27
you're incorporating that. I loved uh
5:29
last year in 2025, you were a guide at
5:32
Catalyst and you walked attendees
5:35
through what a crisis might look like
5:38
and how those scary events might pop up.
5:41
Can you
5:42
>> most terrifying experience of my life
5:45
[laughter]
5:45
>> as a participant? No. Um, it was so it
5:49
was so well created to um simulate for
5:53
me who actually
5:55
>> I'm a water communications from a
5:58
technology standpoint but not a public
6:00
communications. Um, so actually saying
6:04
what is it like to have a crisis you
6:07
have to react to in real time and every
6:10
stakeholder or character all of a sudden
6:13
is throwing something at you. the mayor,
6:15
the uh health, the public. There's all
6:19
these ingredients. You created an
6:21
experience that elevated my anxiety
6:24
and taught me a little bit of of how to
6:27
manage that. But walk us through that.
6:30
>> Yeah. Uh I thought it was important to
6:32
create a simulation that was rooted in,
6:35
you know, things that I had readily
6:37
experienced as a PIO and actually, you
6:40
know, in embedded with a utility. And so
6:42
I thought it was important to think
6:44
about, yes, on paper there's a plan,
6:47
there's a protocol, there's messaging
6:49
templates, and everything's going to go
6:51
exactly as planned. And it's like it
6:52
doesn't. Um things tend to escalate.
6:56
People that you thought you could count
6:57
on, all of a sudden they are they're
6:59
nowhere to be found or um you know,
7:02
you're you're put to the test during a
7:04
high stakes messaging um incident. And I
7:07
think it's important for people to not
7:08
only just have a crisis communications
7:11
plan, to actually lean in with your team
7:13
and to actually test that plan because
7:16
what you think uh will happen, you know,
7:18
people will surprise you. It doesn't go
7:20
go on just as as perfect as as you
7:23
planned. And so while the adrenaline is
7:25
pumping and your heart's like pumping in
7:27
your chest, it's good to to put that
7:29
messaging to the test and say, um, is
7:32
this realistic? you know, are we are we
7:34
bringing in, you know, the folks that
7:36
need to be involved? Often times,
7:38
utilities will have a crisis
7:39
communications plan and not involve
7:41
their elected officials, but those are
7:43
the first people who jump in front of a
7:45
camera and want to take control, want to
7:46
explain things. And so it's important to
7:49
uh develop uh you know crisis
7:51
simulations that involve those
7:54
stakeholders who will need to
7:55
communicate something and to give them a
7:57
job and give them purpose and say hey um
8:00
when this happens this is what you're
8:02
going to do and this is what I'm going
8:03
to do together when this gets out to the
8:06
public you know this is these are the
8:08
resources and things you will go to in
8:09
order to communicate that day and I
8:11
think it's um it's important to do these
8:13
things because you know there are a lot
8:15
of things that can throw you for a loop.
8:17
you know, during during a crisis and
8:20
whether it's uh having, you know, you
8:23
know, activist messaging or elected
8:25
official that doesn't stay on the script
8:27
and then kind of kind of go off the
8:29
rails. What do you do with that when
8:30
you're trying to communicate about
8:32
public health, when you're trying to
8:33
communicate about, you know, uh public
8:35
transparency and things that really
8:36
really matter? Um, and so this crisis
8:39
simulation was meant to just throw all
8:41
of that at the catalyst participants and
8:43
say, "What will you do now?" then you
8:46
know now you're you know communicating
8:48
under pressure underwater and you're
8:51
having to claw out a a really sticky um
8:55
situation and so what I found was um
8:58
actually the catalyst participants they
9:01
were right on their toes and a lot of
9:02
them um were ready to give a presser you
9:05
know within within minutes and I was
9:08
really thrilled to see that people were
9:09
asking the right questions as far as
9:11
well but why is this person doing this
9:13
and what is our service area who we
9:15
actually talking to who's impacted by
9:17
this. And sometimes when um you know so
9:21
much information is thrown at us and
9:22
we're having to put together um what
9:25
those core messages are, we have to
9:27
decide what not to communicate. That
9:28
sometimes is just as important as as
9:30
what to communicate. So yeah, the crisis
9:32
simulation is kind of one of the mo most
9:34
talked about things that people see me
9:35
at their conference. I went to that
9:37
simulation. Oh my goodness.
9:38
>> Yeah, Jess, that was so good.
9:41
>> Yeah. for top rated sessions and you
9:45
know under pressure underwater they were
9:47
in an aquarium like underwater and so um
9:50
but I think more than just being fun and
9:53
you say you know a lot of them they were
9:55
ready and they were ready to um give
9:57
their pressures but actually practicing
10:00
this is really important and so yeah I
10:03
was grateful for you being there and
10:04
giving everyone the opportunity to under
10:07
this not real incident practice this
10:10
before it actually comes out Because
10:11
inevitably these kind things come up
10:14
everywhere.
10:15
>> Yeah. I mean we we build communication
10:17
plans but do we test them?
10:18
>> You know do we do we actually help the
10:21
folks that will need those those
10:24
messaging templates and things? Yeah.
10:25
>> We give them the opportunity to sort of
10:27
socialize them to make them um
10:29
personable to put in their own voice and
10:31
their own words and to most importantly
10:34
those who um are a stakeholder and we'll
10:36
we'll be communicating regardless how we
10:39
how we given them a purpose. Abby said,
10:41
"Okay, when this happens, you may hear
10:43
about this.
10:44
>> Hey, during this situation, this is what
10:46
we really need for you to do. This is
10:48
what is most helpful." Um, and and when
10:51
there is ambiguity and uncertainty, that
10:54
is when a utility is obligated to, you
10:56
know, really give clarity. And that's
10:58
that's what those crisis simulations are
11:00
about. just really helping them glean
11:03
through the noise, getting to the core
11:05
message, and making sure that they're um
11:07
engaging early and often um during an
11:10
escalating situation or crisis.
11:12
>> Yeah. Yeah. I think that that's that
11:15
that point of, you know, being very
11:17
aware of what not to communicate is is
11:20
really I think was one of the unlocks
11:23
for me during that session because in
11:25
the midst of a crisis, like I can't
11:27
necessarily
11:29
fault an elected official who has done
11:33
the work to garner a lot of trust with
11:36
the community to get to that spot anyway
11:38
to feel the need of like I need to say
11:41
something that relieves fears. s if if
11:44
they don't have the information or
11:45
you're not in lock step, you're risking
11:48
them saying something before it's ready
11:49
or or promising something that they
11:51
can't say and you're just and and you
11:53
lose
11:54
>> Yeah.
11:55
>> you lose the narrative
11:56
>> pretty latigious. You know, people are
11:58
very, you know, hesitant to to speak
12:01
situation, especially if there are very
12:03
obvious harms and impacts. People start
12:05
to lawyer up and then all of a sudden
12:07
we're not we're not talking to the
12:09
community anymore. And so where there is
12:11
an absence or silence, that's where
12:14
people can um start to speculate. That's
12:16
where skepticism um comes in and that's
12:19
when you're losing the battle um you
12:21
know on you know public trust but that's
12:23
also an opportunity um to get it right
12:26
and I find that in these types of
12:29
situations um you know action strategy
12:33
is the most important thing that uh it
12:37
can help you as far as strategic
12:38
communications. So people want to know
12:40
if there's some kind of special sauce
12:42
to, you know, crisis messaging. It's
12:44
like, are you doing the right thing
12:45
first? And so that that's a very simple
12:47
thing. Are we are we being transparent?
12:49
Are we are we doing the right thing? Are
12:51
we actually telling the truth? And how
12:52
can we demonstrate that? I think that
12:54
during the situations when you are
12:56
rebuilding public trust when something
12:58
has happened and maybe there has been
13:00
harm that you have to acknowledge, it's
13:02
important that people see you doing the
13:03
right thing. And that that is the lens
13:06
that I try to advise my client through.
13:09
But sometimes that's not, you know, I'm
13:10
the first to push back and say, is that
13:12
the right thing? You know, um the people
13:15
that are impacted by this, how will they
13:18
feel? And are we saying something that
13:20
is going to make them even more anxious
13:22
or or more distrustful? And we have to
13:25
first address the action strategy before
13:27
we lean into the messaging. If you're
13:29
not doing the right thing, there's no
13:30
press release or or, you know, messaging
13:33
document that's going to help you
13:34
through that. Sometimes to get through
13:36
it, you have to do maybe the more
13:38
challenging and and hard thing that is
13:40
the thing first.
13:41
>> Yeah.
13:41
>> Yeah, that's so good. I was talking to a
13:43
utility uh last week and they had was
13:47
too much going on. They weren't really
13:48
able to respond timely to things and
13:51
they said, "Well, how do I message
13:52
that?" And I said, "Well, you know,
13:55
messaging and community engagement is
13:57
something marketing." So marketing a a
14:00
bad service, you could do that, right?
14:04
that's not what roada and that's not
14:06
what we're trying to help this industry
14:08
do. So I think that point is really
14:10
important. I also touching on something
14:13
both said on the when there are gaps in
14:16
information and Isaac talking about all
14:19
the different players like you had to
14:20
communicate to in that simulation. The
14:23
other thing, you know, I've learned in
14:24
studying with different communities is
14:26
that when there are information gaps and
14:30
so you have these trusted different
14:32
voices either amplifying or validating
14:35
information that the community is
14:37
getting from whether that's elected
14:39
officials or your regulator or your
14:40
reporter. And if you are the information
14:43
holder as a utility and you're not
14:45
informing them that there there's an
14:46
uneven information flow and you're not
14:49
informing them all with the same
14:50
consistent facts then things can get
14:53
mixy really quick. So um yeah I love
14:56
your point on the information gap.
14:58
>> Yeah and I think it you know I think
15:00
we're in this battle of misinformation
15:03
disinformation. you know, there are
15:05
people who not only spread um things
15:08
that aren't are untrue, but there are
15:10
people who intentionally go out to, you
15:12
know, create confusion and and chaos.
15:14
And so sometimes as a utility, you have
15:16
to be say um hey, you know, we are your
15:19
source for we are the experts on water
15:21
quality in the community. We test your
15:24
water hundreds of times, you know, each
15:26
day to make sure it's it's safe
15:28
according to the standards. And so
15:30
sometimes you have to remind people that
15:31
hey we are we are a credible source for
15:33
these things and then show them and
15:35
demonstrate that again and again
15:37
>> and and reminding people is is really
15:41
really important especially during
15:43
>> really complex you know capital programs
15:45
that span
15:47
>> you know years I mean look at lead
15:49
service line replacements you know for
15:50
some utilities that's going to take 10
15:53
20 you know for some 30 years or you
15:56
know or longer because
15:58
>> it is so pervasive in in in those
16:00
systems. Um and so it's important to uh
16:04
you know remind people of the progress
16:05
and say hey this is where we are. This
16:07
is where we're going as a reminder. This
16:09
is the point. Um if you have questions
16:11
please please call us. And I think that
16:14
way to the milestones to to talk about
16:16
those things. Um people people start to
16:19
go well what's what's the value of this?
16:21
is this is this really pinning us and
16:24
what are you doing with my money? That's
16:26
why I think it's so important that we uh
16:28
take the time to brand and be
16:30
intentional about messaging and really
16:32
about message frequency and saturation
16:35
starting in bit to the the the nerdy
16:38
science of communications and marketing
16:40
but message frequency and saturation is
16:41
kind of something to keep in mind and we
16:44
have to we have to budget for that and
16:45
make time and hold space you know for
16:48
those interactions.
16:49
>> Yeah. Because it because at the end of
16:51
the day, the competition is it's
16:53
attention. It's it's competing for
16:57
attention. We're so much of an attention
16:58
economy that any anything that is
17:03
newsworthy is is every influencer on the
17:07
face of the planet can turn can take
17:09
that as an opportunity because they know
17:11
there will be attention. Um, and that's
17:14
that's just that's the way our that's
17:16
the way our society runs right now.
17:19
They're not going to read that, you
17:21
know,
17:22
>> 1,000 to 2,000 word monologue of the
17:26
utility have a conver technical
17:27
conversation with itself. Instead, they
17:30
they want something that um maybe is a
17:33
bit more human, you know. Yeah.
17:35
>> Have to tell engineers, you know, you
17:38
are a human that's talking to other
17:39
humans and it's like not seeing this in
17:42
in designs and, you know, um specs and
17:46
standards. They're they're thinking how
17:48
is this going to impact my commute? How
17:50
is this disrupting my day? Um how does
17:52
this impact what what happens when I go
17:54
to the faucet or when I flush my toilet
17:56
or when I go fishing with my family?
17:58
>> And so I think as we we navigate like
18:00
failing infrastructure, I don't use
18:02
aging infrastructure anymore. I say
18:04
failing because just because it's old
18:05
doesn't mean it's it's so I say failing.
18:07
>> I like that.
18:08
>> But like u we say things like waste
18:11
water. Are we really wasting the water?
18:13
Are we cleaning the water? you know, so
18:14
words words do do matter and I think we
18:18
have to get more intentional because
18:19
people really aren't as literate as as
18:22
we used to be. I think it's one in five
18:24
adults are functionally literate. That
18:26
is a very real thing. And so people
18:28
aren't reading. They're kind of doom
18:29
scrolling. there's there's there and so
18:32
we are designing um for a very
18:34
distracted public and
18:37
>> it's hard to tell our very technical
18:39
project teams that sometimes but you
18:41
have to be able to look them in the eye
18:42
and say hey I don't think people are
18:44
going to read this too long
18:46
>> don't read that's a real dynamic and so
18:50
um making messages memorable shorter
18:52
more concise plain language it's it's
18:55
mattering more than than ever
18:59
>> yeah the public agency side of our
19:02
industry when you talk about this idea,
19:03
you know, Isaac, you said competition,
19:06
they're not used to thinking in those
19:07
terms, what is typical monopoly, what do
19:10
you mean I don't have competition? But I
19:12
wish I would think in the lens of would
19:14
my customer choose me and I think a lot
19:17
of times, you know, in way you talked
19:19
about, are you investing your resources
19:22
for the consistent messaging and
19:24
interaction that needs to happen? Um, a
19:26
lot of times I don't think we think
19:28
about that until a crisis happens and
19:30
then we do it all the flooding, but it's
19:32
kind of too late. In your career, you've
19:35
worked in a lot of cities that have had
19:37
that example. Can you talk about one
19:40
like what happened? What was the hardest
19:42
thing? Um, maybe give us some examples.
19:46
>> Um, you know, I deal a lot in the
19:48
advanced metering infrastructure space.
19:51
Um, also I deal a lot with lead
19:53
communications. So whether it's like uh
19:56
uh service line identification or
19:58
service line replacements. And so with
20:00
with these types of situations like okay
20:02
we are we're kind of disrupting
20:04
someone's day. We're we're literally you
20:07
know digging up and potholeing and
20:09
inspecting a pipe or replacing a pipe.
20:12
And so um we may have to turn off their
20:14
water briefly to switch to switch out
20:16
the pipe. and um how how are we
20:20
communicating in such a way that not
20:21
only just shows um empathy
20:23
[clears throat]
20:24
but you know can really help people just
20:26
navigate and get back to what's
20:28
important um to them um it could be you
20:31
know I've seen where um during you know
20:34
metering or like service line
20:36
replacements where um bad things happen
20:39
right they they get in there they start
20:40
poking around and oh we have broken a
20:43
hydrant or we did the replacement and we
20:46
forgot have to turn the water on. And
20:47
so, you know, I think those are are
20:49
moments how you respond to customers and
20:52
what you say when things get challenging
20:54
or when, you know, something goes wrong.
20:56
I think that's how customers start to
20:59
define, you know, if they they trust you
21:01
or not. I don't think the public expects
21:03
that utilities look at every single
21:05
answer correct all the time. I do think
21:07
they expect um transparency and clarity
21:11
and that you'll be responsive and that
21:13
if something's going on, you can tell
21:15
them, hey, here's what we know. Um this
21:17
is when we will know more. This is what
21:19
you can expect from us. This is what
21:21
we're going to do now and we're here for
21:23
you, you know, as we navigate this
21:25
together. And I think if you can just,
21:26
you know, have have that human moment of
21:29
you know what, that probably didn't feel
21:31
very good. We're sorry this happened.
21:33
Here's here's how we're going to fix it.
21:34
And it is really literally you know good
21:36
customer service has to be at the heart
21:39
of you know that messaging of the
21:42
customer journey during these these
21:45
types of problems because you know
21:47
utilities are having to navigate kind of
21:49
these massive transformations whether
21:51
it's their customer portals or um the
21:54
metering the billing um service line
21:57
replacements big transmission mains you
22:00
know switch outs or it could be
22:02
something more of like workforce things.
22:04
It's like, hey, we don't have enough
22:06
folks who are are are in the field that
22:08
can help us. And so, we have to change
22:10
the way that we're working to to make
22:12
this uh water service um to keep it
22:14
affordable. We need your help. And so, I
22:16
think when this works well, it's um it's
22:20
informing folks, but it's also inviting
22:22
them to shape and and design kind of
22:25
what's what's going to happen. And
22:27
that's what keeps I think those
22:28
engineering project teams adaptable to
22:31
that. If we get into message
22:33
distribution where we're just making
22:35
that a oneway, hey, we're just getting
22:37
the word out. Um, we miss an opportunity
22:40
to look at local knowledge, to look at,
22:42
you know, cultural community traditions,
22:45
to look at all the different things that
22:47
you can't see on a map. You know,
22:49
happens um with all the local schools,
22:51
you know, when people are coming coming
22:53
to school and you know, dropped off
22:54
their kids and pick or picking up their
22:56
kids or um those things that always
22:58
happen, you know, you in a community at
23:00
a certain time, those things don't
23:03
>> aren't easily called out. But if you're
23:05
listening to folks, if you honor kind of
23:08
the experiences of the people in the
23:09
neighborhood, that kind of that can
23:11
inform a project and you can say, "Okay,
23:13
oh well, during phase five of this when
23:16
we're putting this parking lot. Wow,
23:18
this is this is going to take out Mrs.
23:20
Mabel's garden. Well, this is community
23:21
garden. This little senior community has
23:23
had this garden for the last 10 years.
23:25
That's not off the map because they just
23:27
kind of made a garden and the community
23:28
always knows about it." Well, if you're
23:30
not listening, you you can start to do
23:32
things that are harmful just because
23:34
you're not you're not looking at the
23:35
people and them and how that intersects
23:39
with with a project. And so deep
23:41
listening while it's not, you know, it's
23:43
not necessarily fun, especially when
23:45
there are challenges and and it doesn't
23:47
fit into your scope, schedule, budget,
23:49
you know, cookie cutter template. Um I
23:52
think some of the more meaningful things
23:53
I've seen happen is when we have looked
23:55
at something and said, "Well, let's see
23:57
what we can do." um let's we can
24:00
preserve these beautiful, you know,
24:03
mature trees that are on this road.
24:05
Maybe we don't have to cut them all
24:06
down. Maybe we find a way to repurpose
24:08
them. Um
24:09
>> you know, I think we have to be willing
24:11
to lean in and say, "How can how can we
24:14
do something good? How can we listen so
24:17
that the when a community looks at a
24:18
design or a project, they can say, "Oh,
24:20
yeah, they they talked to us and they
24:23
did this with us and I can see the input
24:25
in the design." I feel like that's the
24:27
best compliment I've gotten on my
24:29
projects is when a community member
24:30
says, "Oh yeah, we've been talking about
24:32
this for a while. This I've been to
24:34
these meetings before. I can really see
24:35
how they listen to us. I can see it in
24:37
the design." Actually,
24:38
>> yeah.
24:38
>> One time and I was kind of like,
24:40
>> "That's awesome."
24:42
>> Yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful.
24:44
>> Back with that.
24:45
>> Yeah.
24:46
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's also it's when you were
24:49
talking about that it was reminding me
24:51
like I've been wrestling with with this
24:53
idea of
24:56
um you know there's kind of the thing
24:59
like you can't improve what you don't
25:01
measure and so measurement is important
25:03
and that's that's true and so it's it's
25:05
important to like have that but that
25:08
also provides the framing and and what
25:10
you were saying where um sometimes the
25:13
things that that we're measuring we need
25:15
to leave some room for the things that
25:17
we can't measure in our equation. Be
25:21
like there's a handful of unknowns and
25:22
we need to try to figure out what those
25:25
are from the community in not just us us
25:28
to the community. But that that exists
25:30
in a space where there's some really
25:32
important unlocks that that are the make
25:35
or break of are they going to be engaged
25:37
or bought in? Are they going to trust
25:39
us? Um if we if we say well it only
25:42
works within this framework because this
25:43
is what we're measuring.
25:45
it it comes off as um as not making
25:49
space um for um for that. And so um glad
25:53
you're mentioning that because I I
25:55
really do believe we're at this we're at
25:57
this time and age where projects have to
26:00
do more than just what that technical
26:03
objective is. We have to be looking
26:05
bigger and making this the the outcomes
26:08
more inclusive to address bigger
26:11
communitywide and neighborhood needs.
26:14
Right? And so I think about how can we
26:16
build in park amenities or put in a
26:19
small pocket park as part of
26:21
[clears throat]
26:21
redoing that alignment or putting in
26:23
that that you know transmission line or
26:26
um how can we leave a bit of some art
26:29
behind to help a community reflect or
26:32
heal or celebrate something or or mark
26:36
some sort of you know cultural tradition
26:38
and honor that and acknowledge them. And
26:41
so I I think about ways how we can leave
26:43
our community infrastructure a little
26:45
better than how we found it with every
26:47
project. And so I think that um STV and
26:51
other firms that are really starting to
26:52
move in move in that space. It's an
26:55
opportunity I think for us as an
26:56
industry to just be more intentional
26:59
about um leaving things better than how
27:02
we found it. Just beyond just the
27:03
technical part of it, but really
27:04
addressing the bigger um community need.
27:08
I think that's so good too because I
27:11
think it's also become an expectation of
27:13
the community and a lot of times you
27:16
know if you don't equip your staff or
27:19
your infield or your public facing
27:21
people to know that they are empowered
27:24
to go beyond a checklist beyond the
27:27
black and white what's on paper of
27:29
something. I've seen a lot of times of
27:31
communities asking for things like that
27:33
and you know the public servant or the
27:36
the consultant engineer might say oh
27:38
that's not in my point of view and kind
27:40
of cool right they're right but they're
27:42
there for the engineering project but I
27:44
love that kind of equips its people to
27:46
go above and beyond and um I think this
27:50
sector
27:52
speaking of the workforce thing hiring
27:53
more diverse minds who have these
27:57
creative thoughts and specialties in,
28:00
you know, better community connection
28:01
and what could lead a place better than
28:03
you found it. I just love that mindset
28:05
and I love that you brought it up and I
28:07
just love that it is, you know, like you
28:09
said, happening.
28:10
>> Yeah. And I think this is a time also to
28:13
collaborate and build part build up
28:15
partnerships. Um I I look at um you know
28:20
things that are out of scope are a great
28:22
opportunity to lean in and find partners
28:25
and say, "Okay, that may not be out of
28:27
scope and out of budget for this
28:29
project, but what can be done?" You
28:31
know, maybe we can get together and talk
28:33
about kind of what what is possible if
28:36
if we get together just beyond that that
28:39
project lens and say, "Okay, what is the
28:42
bigger community opportunity that we can
28:44
that we can work through?" And so that's
28:46
um you know with these constraints of
28:49
scope schedule but these are very real
28:51
things. I'm not yeah discount them, but
28:53
I I do think that these are
28:55
opportunities to um have more community
28:57
discussions about folks that do want to,
29:00
you know, contribute and be at the
29:01
table, whether that's, you know, the
29:03
philanthropic community, the academic
29:05
community, um you know, foundations and,
29:08
you know, corporations that that really
29:10
want to invest and can and can see um uh
29:14
how to you join in and be and be part of
29:17
something that's bigger than just the
29:18
immediate, you know, technical project.
29:21
You're right, Chelsea. I mean, people
29:22
are asking um for utilities to do more
29:25
and more often, often with less for
29:27
things they don't even have. But since
29:28
it's still utilities, assume you, you
29:31
know, you do everything, right? And it's
29:33
that that becomes even harder. I mean,
29:35
we're we're still having this
29:36
conversation around um whether it's a
29:39
private lateral or a service line as a
29:42
utility. This is what we are responsible
29:43
for and hey homeowner, this is what we
29:46
want you to do. And we're and we're
29:48
still even in you know 2026 we're we're
29:50
still having this conversation public
29:52
education about um you know what's
29:55
what's in your home and versus what's
29:57
the what's own under the utility and
30:00
people are we're still navigating that
30:02
very fundamental um you know space. Um
30:04
and that's that's
30:07
hard. We still have a long way to go.
30:09
>> Yeah. One thing like on those kind of
30:12
scenarios I like to remind us knowing
30:15
the the industry and a lot of times we
30:17
can get frustrated because we're playing
30:20
with a lot over and over but it's not
30:22
their fault they don't know. I didn't
30:23
know this before I entered the water
30:25
sector right and some people do know
30:28
based on other experiences and um
30:30
education but yeah like it's not the
30:33
public's fault if they don't know how we
30:35
operate business or what a technical
30:38
thing is. I do want to quickly back up
30:41
to something you said earlier and it was
30:43
about transparency. And the reason I
30:46
want to is because I often find that is
30:49
um there are some misconceptions about
30:51
what that means. I think if you ask
30:53
anyone, this is one of Rogue Water Lab's
30:55
four pillars of public trust.
30:56
Transparency is the first one. And when
30:58
you ask anyone, of course they're
31:00
transparent. Of course I know I need to
31:02
be transparent. But I think we think
31:04
that means being transparent when when
31:07
we know things and when things are going
31:09
right. But it means being transparent
31:11
always. And and you said something
31:13
really important. We don't know
31:15
something. Letting them know that. And
31:17
it's such a scary thing because then
31:18
we're perceiving, oh, how how might they
31:21
look at us and what might um they think
31:23
about us. But being honest in those
31:26
moments or when something didn't go
31:28
right, I'm sorry the building was off
31:30
and we're gonna fix it, but I'm just
31:32
letting you know it happened. We want to
31:34
avoid those things and we, you know, we
31:36
believe ourselves to be good because we
31:38
have good intentions. So, we don't think
31:40
it's a big deal, but it's such a big
31:42
deal. When you think about your spouse
31:44
or your friend kind of withholding
31:46
information from you, that immediately,
31:48
as the kids would say, they say sus,
31:51
that's probably not even a young word
31:53
anymore. I'm getting sold. But um you
31:55
know it's suspicious. People are
31:57
skeptical about it. So um yeah, I don't
32:00
know if you have additional thoughts in
32:01
that, but I wanted to highlight you
32:03
saying that because I think that's so
32:04
important.
32:06
>> Yeah, it's it's not about trying to
32:07
recount every single detail or do a
32:10
confessional, you know, ask me
32:12
everything live, you know, on a
32:14
situation during oppressor. I think I
32:16
I've seen one public official do a
32:18
presser that was like four hours long,
32:21
you know, person just stayed at the
32:22
podium and answered everything until
32:25
>> wow
32:26
>> in the face. But um you know, it's it's
32:28
not about doing that. That's a very
32:30
extreme example, but I do I do think
32:32
it's about acknowledging where there is
32:36
there are things that have to be
32:37
addressed. You know, I think it is
32:39
leaning in and saying, "Hey, you may
32:42
have questions about this. this is what
32:44
we're doing to find out about that. We
32:46
don't have all the details. What we do
32:47
know is this. This is when we'll check
32:50
in again, you know, with what we found.
32:52
And if you have questions, this is who
32:54
you call or this is this is where you
32:56
go, you know, to to get the thing. And I
32:59
think transparency um it's it can be
33:03
difficult where there is uncertainty,
33:04
where there is legal risk, where there
33:07
are um very obvious harms and impacts.
33:09
it's it's hard to kind of lean in and
33:11
and want to talk about certain things. I
33:14
think showing that vulnerability and
33:16
empathy um is when you do win trust.
33:22
>> Yeah.
33:22
>> So, I want to hear um I told myself I
33:25
was going to ask you and now I'm going
33:26
to ask you uh because I'm I'm going to
33:29
ask you about work in Wind Jackson,
33:31
Mississippi, but I want to caveat. I
33:34
know you know that made so much
33:36
headlines. Michigan made so much
33:38
headlines, but there are communities all
33:40
across the United States who are in very
33:43
similar situations and I know we've
33:45
worked in many of those and so I don't
33:47
want to go over the point of like it's
33:50
just Jackson. So, um, but I think a lot
33:53
of people are curious about that, just
33:55
seeing it, um, in the names and I think
33:58
some of the particulars of that, well,
34:01
local elected officials and state
34:03
elected officials and then our
34:04
receiverhip, the trust in the community,
34:08
um, was hard because, you know, people
34:11
who see the authority that the community
34:13
supposed to listen to, that was hard.
34:15
Um, I guess my question is more just
34:18
around working with community groups
34:20
there. I know you've got a lot of
34:22
expertise on uh I had you teach your
34:24
course one time turning uh adversaries
34:27
into allies, but uh do you have any
34:30
swearings about working with the
34:32
community groups like in a situation
34:33
like that or Jackson or somewhere else?
34:37
zoom out a little bit and just
34:38
acknowledge that this is very difficult
34:40
work and um when communities that have
34:44
seen systemic disinvestment and where
34:46
there are relationships that are
34:47
strained
34:48
>> and when um when there are like very
34:51
real problems um with with a water
34:54
system. I just want to acknowledge um
34:56
everyone who was working within those
34:58
situations um in the past or or in the
35:01
future even or even now. I just want to
35:03
acknowledge that that is very heavy work
35:05
and it's and it's not easy and shout out
35:08
to to those who are shephering those
35:10
kind of situations. Now, um I think we
35:13
have to lean in and and help each other
35:15
in those situations. It's easy to kind
35:17
of um you know, sit back and and have
35:21
that passenger seat commentary when
35:23
you're not the one driving. Um but in
35:26
those situations, I think that's when
35:27
the water industry has to come together.
35:29
And that's that's been one of the more
35:31
memorable you know aspects of people who
35:33
did in and say how can I help
35:36
>> that has been one of the most um I think
35:38
rewarding parts of that is seeing people
35:41
>> uh really you know expand their table
35:43
and say hey this is what I can do is
35:45
this helpful I think that's we need more
35:47
of that I think in our in our industry
35:49
um when we're working with um community
35:53
groups and we're dealing with very real
35:56
water challenges I think one of the
35:57
things we got to remember is uh these
36:00
these groups want um you know they want
36:03
purpose. They're invested. They've built
36:07
um built a life and a profession around
36:10
what what they're doing. And I think u
36:13
it's so easy when we're dealing with um
36:16
groups that don't necessarily agree with
36:19
um you know where the utility is coming
36:21
from and that perspective and there's
36:22
that tension there's that adversarial
36:24
thing. I think that's an opportunity to
36:26
lean in, to listen, to have an, you
36:28
know, a meaningful exchange. It's not
36:30
about trying to necessarily um build
36:33
consensus, but you can get on the same
36:35
page. You can, you know, find find a
36:37
role for each other to coexist. Um
36:40
especially when there is a shared
36:41
purpose and where there is shared
36:43
purpose and vision. um that's an
36:46
opportunity to do some really innovative
36:47
things that um you know get out of the
36:50
table when you're not trying to
36:53
necessarily uh take credit for
36:55
everything or or you know for some
36:58
entities get paid for everything. I
37:00
think there's um I think there's a lot
37:01
of really great opportunities if we we
37:03
start reimagining what those
37:05
partnerships can look like at the local
37:07
level. Um but we have to find common
37:09
ground. We have to sort of start looking
37:11
at where is the shared purpose and and
37:13
and vision and and we have to
37:16
acknowledge kind of where where those
37:18
strains are and why they exist, you
37:20
know, and we have to take that next step
37:22
and say
37:23
>> this is how we want to start again. This
37:25
is how we want to move forward together.
37:27
And that's what it takes I think in some
37:29
of those communities where um there have
37:32
been you know a history of problems and
37:36
you know there there there's lots of
37:38
doubt and skepticism um and and where we
37:41
benefit is when we have a sense of hope
37:43
and optimism that is rooted in this
37:46
commitment to moving forward and and
37:48
making something better
37:50
>> for everyone. So this is not easy work
37:53
at all. It takes it takes leadership. I
37:55
think it takes vision.
37:56
>> Yeah. decent investment takes doing
37:59
doing the right thing even when it's
38:00
hard and sometimes when you don't get it
38:02
right going back to the table say you
38:04
know what we tried it didn't work out
38:06
what else can we do you know and and I
38:09
think that's um for for some of these
38:11
more you know I would say uh challenging
38:14
things as an industry we're going to
38:15
face right look at what's happening with
38:17
POS and bioolid
38:20
um landfills um yeah we're you know
38:23
we're we're confronting um you know
38:26
these conversations with manufacturers
38:28
and retailers and people who are
38:30
creating stuff, right? And we're having
38:33
to have bigger conversations about um
38:35
the source versus the disposal and what
38:38
what happens now. And I think it takes
38:41
stewardship. It takes us um you know,
38:43
everyone being at the table, those
38:45
stakeholders and having policy makers
38:47
and governance and really being able to
38:49
to lean in and say um what can we do
38:52
right now? What needs to be studied? how
38:55
can we how can we move this along? And
38:58
that's and I think that's the that's the
38:59
difficult work, but it's the necessary
39:01
work,
39:02
>> I think, to to rebuild public trust, you
39:05
know, and to really u show progress. I
39:08
think some of these um issues that we're
39:10
facing as an industry. We've been facing
39:12
some of these things for a very long
39:14
time. And so you maybe it hasn't gotten
39:17
better. And so it's easy to get
39:19
discouraged, but for me, I'm I'm more
39:21
hopeful that um we have such talented
39:24
people. When I go to the water quality
39:27
technology conference or some of these
39:28
more niche water conferences, I'm like,
39:30
"Wow, that is the person that's going to
39:32
solve the PEOS problem." Yeah. I'm
39:34
inspired by the young people that I
39:36
today. And so that's why it's important
39:39
we have to become more inclusive. We
39:41
have to invite people into our industry
39:43
who are from nontraditional backgrounds.
39:45
we have to start um you know succession
39:48
planning differently. We have to start
39:50
re rethinking kind of the structure of
39:53
the water industry and that's
39:55
>> that that's not easy. makes everyone
39:57
very uncomfortable. But may but maybe it
39:59
should, right?
40:00
>> It's not easy. And it takes it takes out
40:03
of the box thinking and I'll bring this
40:05
all the way back to to Catalyst and just
40:08
like, you know, the beauty of of an
40:10
experience like Catalyst where it's it's
40:14
not all water professionals talking to
40:17
water professionals. there's a lot of
40:19
intentionality around bringing folks
40:22
from outside of the industry to um to
40:25
talk to us water professionals so we can
40:27
learn from them and um you know whether
40:30
that's um yeah last year there's like
40:33
mayors are involved um folks in um art
40:37
creativity um
40:39
>> science uh scientist yeah
40:43
>> yeah so all those things because through
40:46
the thread of everything that you were
40:47
just talking about um Amamira was the
40:51
you know there's the commitment to the
40:53
thing and then there's the consistency
40:55
and the the drum the cons the commitment
40:57
to the consistency of of continually um
41:02
bringing other people in whether that's
41:04
through a message and stakeholders or
41:06
making them part of the solution. um all
41:09
of that. Um
41:10
>> yeah, we got to keep shooting up. Um and
41:12
you know, that's that's something as we
41:15
build, you know, trust beyond just the
41:17
regulatory the compliance stuff. It's
41:19
it's how how can we show up in a way
41:23
that is authentic, that is real. How can
41:25
we invite people in instead of um just
41:28
pushing messages, you know, at them? Um
41:31
how can we involve more? How and how can
41:34
we um make this, you know, sustainable?
41:37
I think all those things are really big
41:39
questions, you know, that we keep asking
41:41
in our industry, but it's it's it's
41:43
necessary to move the work forward.
41:45
>> Yeah,
41:46
>> this was so good. And I could keep going
41:49
about this, especially your last answer
41:51
before that, I was like, "Oh my
41:52
goodness, there's so much to touch on
41:54
there." Um, but other than coming to Cad
41:57
where you will be and people like you
41:59
will be. If people are interested in
42:01
connecting with you or learning more
42:02
about STD, how would they reach you?
42:05
>> Yeah. Um there's a lot of really really
42:08
great resources um on our website
42:11
stvinc.com.
42:13
Um or you can just connect with me on
42:15
LinkedIn. It's where I talk about things
42:17
that um are sort of in this the science
42:19
of communication, marketing, you know,
42:22
um branding, how do you measure public
42:24
trust, um how can you do innovative
42:27
public engagement, you know, when
42:29
budgets are constrained and you have an
42:32
engineer staring at you saying scope,
42:33
schedule, budget. um that's where I find
42:36
my inspiration and like to talk about
42:38
you know what's happening in our
42:39
industry. Um so yes find me on LinkedIn
42:41
or you can um connect with STV on our
42:44
website.
42:46
Awesome. Well, thank you so much Amamira
42:48
for joining us. Um it was a pleasure to
42:51
get the opportunity to experience you as
42:53
a guide um at Catalyst last year and I'm
42:56
looking forward to um connecting with
42:58
you again at Catalyst this year. And for
43:01
anyone listening to this, if it's before
43:03
September,
43:04
time is running out. I mean, today is
43:06
the last day actually, but um
43:09
>> a delicious menu that'll
43:10
>> be a catalyst,
43:12
>> but it's not too late. There will
43:14
probably be another catalyst next year.
43:16
Um and so um join the catalyst um
43:19
experience as well. Find um find Chelsea
43:22
Rogue Water Lab Catalyst um all online
43:26
will be in the show notes. And um thank
43:28
you so much for for joining us and we'll
43:31
see you next time.
43:32
>> Thanks Amara.
43:33
>> Thank you
43:35
>> everyone.