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How to Keep Your Employees Engaged with Jason Cochran · Authentic Living

• 0:01
  Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, a place where we have as conversations about
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  things that really matter in our lives.
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  And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
• 0:36
  Hi.
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  It's Roxanne Derhodge of Authentic Living with Roxanne.
• 0:39
  This week, my special guest is Jason Cochran.
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  And he and I had such a great conversation with so much information packed in that we we
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  started to tune it into a two part series.
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  Be sure to tune in again next week for part 2.
• 0:53
  You won't wanna miss any of the great content on how to keep your employees motivated and to
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  optimize their functioning by the way they get taught.
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  Jason, comes to us with a wealth of knowledge, and he's a co founder of a company called Duly.
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  Duly is an automated employee experience program.
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  And what does that mean?
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  Well, We all wanna know how to engage your employees.
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  And as you know, with me, I talk a lot about authentic or being authentic in your space as a
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  leader.
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  So Jason's company works with, companies across, different sectors to engage employees.
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  How do you keep them engaged help them learn and, obviously stay connected in a way that
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  impacts productivity.
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  So, Jason, thanks so much for taking the time today to come on with us.
• 1:45
  Hey, Roxanne.
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  Looking forward to the conversation today.
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  So we, you know, I talk a lot about, being authentic.
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  So what I often say to people is that I think most of us when we're in our space, we believe
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  we're we're authentic.
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  But sometimes what happens is the pressures of the different environments we can be in, you
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  know, it disconnects us from being authentic.
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  What do you kind of see there out there with leaders, about, being authentic in their space?
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  Yeah.
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  I I can speak from my own experience and that I think we're always inside my own head, like
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  this the center dialogue is always running.
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  And one of the questions is wondering, how am I coming across?
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  How how does this person perceive me?
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  And that can be a good thing in terms of trying to hone some good self awareness skills.
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  Those are really important for leaders.
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  But I think there's also this delicate balance with it where you don't wanna become overly
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  neurotic as well, where you just constantly are analyzing everything that you say and do.
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  And I think that's where that authentic leader fits and is right there in that space of
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  finding that that delicate balance of, yes, you're self aware but you're also not going to
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  overthink things.
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  I'll give you a perfect example.
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  I went on a mission trip to Haiti with a friend of mine about 15 years ago.
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  Obviously, a lot of cultural norms and things I'd never been exposed to that are very
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  different from the Midwest in the United States.
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  And while my friend and I were with one of our our Haitian friends there, we were having a
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  conversation and I was reading our Haitian Friend's body language.
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  And I I started to interpret certain things that I thought he was feeling based off of what
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  we were talking about.
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  And so then I made a statement and he goes, oh, no.
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  That's that's not what I mean, or that's not what I'm feeling right now.
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  That was a big moment for me.
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  That made me start thinking, okay, if this is happening in another country, you know, that's
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  obvious many times does this happen in my everyday conversations with other people where
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  I may jump to conclusions or think I know things off of the different signals that I'm
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  trying to read, but might come to the inappropriate conclusions And so at the end of
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  the day, I found one of the best techniques to try and help with that is reflective listening.
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  And so reflecting back what it is that you're seeing in saying things like, you know,
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  Roxanne.
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  I see that you are, you know, shaking your head right now are these some sentiments that you've
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  thought about or that you agree with kind of my perspective on these things?
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  I think when we reframe things like that, it can help bring clarity within our
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  conversations.
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  In that way, we're kind of testing to make sure are the signals and inputs that we're getting
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  from the nonverbals and the verbals Are those perceptions in our inner dialogue accurate, or
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  are they possibly inaccurate, and can we prevent ourselves from making assumptions that
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  aren't healthy?
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  And I think, you know, when I listen to that, I think you're so right.
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  Like, I'm from Trinidad and Tobago, Jason.
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  So, you know, sometimes people, you know, they will keep things in.
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  Right?
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  So I'm because I'm from the culture, it's a combination of, Eastern in culture and you
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  know, the African culture.
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  So it's a it's a mix, and obviously the British culture.
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  So you have a combination And I often say that culturally, you know, people will keep things
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  in.
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  And I I I would always joke around too.
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  I know a trinity.
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  And I'm saying something, and I'm thinking, oh, no.
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  They're not getting it.
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  But, you know, what I think is important, like you said, is We have to trust that sometimes we
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  misread things, and I know you as a psychologist, myself as a psychotherapist,
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  we're bringing a lot of things with us.
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  And sometimes we assume, oh, yeah.
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  Well, it's just gonna be this way because I'm, you know, from Trinidad or you're from the
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  Midwest or, you know, you're meeting this person.
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  I have this feeling that it's right, and we assume, you know, based on so many things in
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  our lives that in fact it is, but it's that checking it out with the other person to say,
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  hey.
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  I'm feeling this.
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  My sense is I don't get that you are.
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  And I think it's something that you and maybe you and I, obviously, because of what we've
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  done for a living for a long time.
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  We naturally do, but the average person it it would be something that you'd really kind of
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  have to practice.
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  Would you agree with that?
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  That you'd have to kinda, check out things, but sometimes it's on comfortable because people
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  feel like it's contrived.
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  Yeah.
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  I think the reaper backs that up to Roxanne.
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  There was a a fantastic book written just a couple years ago by author named Kate Murphy,
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  and the name of the book is called You're Not Listening, and it's around a lot of the
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  research with with listening and understanding and just communicating effectively and
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  something that really hit home for me that I did not know is that almost all of us, just our
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  nature, our biology, our DNA, we have negative attribution biases.
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  In terms of how we perceive things.
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  And this also has to do with our inner dialogue that we have in our heads and she delves into a
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  lot of the research on that.
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  And this blew my mind.
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  So the National Science Foundation found that the typical person has at least 6000 thoughts
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  each day.
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  Approximately 80% tend to be negative, and approximately 95% of those tend to be
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  repetitive.
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  So a lot of them are the same thoughts from the the previous day.
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  And so when I was reading that book and I'm seeing that research, it just was reaffirming
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  to me that, yes, your point We have to practice these things in terms of positive attribution
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  bias because where our brain naturally goes is survival mode.
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  Intent to go down the negative route in terms of how we attribute and perceive things, and we
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  have to make sure that we're developing a strong in our voice, kind of like a coach,
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  almost in our own voice, of helping us understand when we're hitting those danger
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  zones, of being too negative or thinking that we have all the information we need to draw a
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  conclusion.
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  We need that inner voice coach.
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  To pull us back in and say, hold on a second.
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  We need to use some tools in our tool belt here.
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  Maybe it's asking a clarifying question maybe it's doing some reflective listening
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  techniques, whatever they might be, to make sure that we are understanding where this other
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  person's coming from.
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  And and not just attributing negative bias because that's how we tend to be wired, just in
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  terms of our DNA.
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  So really, negatively bias, you know, the, theory you're talking about is that more than
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  likely, we're gonna think negatively about someone's behavior just because based on so
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  many things in in our lives potentially, right, because most of us are into you know, kind of
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  reading things and we, you know, a lot about, mirror neurons.
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  Right?
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  So that's we're trying to calibrate you and I are trying to calibrate.
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  You and I, we've never met, and I feel like I know Jason, because we've had multiple calls
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  together now.
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  And when I when I come into the space, even it may be different, obviously, online, but
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  oftentimes with my, people that I'm seeing, they come into with a heightened state, and
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  then before you know it, you can see there's been a recalibration.
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  However, as a leader, you know, you may not have, you know, a lot of time to calibrate.
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  So this this element of clarification, which is just I heard you say this, Jason, is that what
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  you already said, or did you did you mean something different?
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  Or reflective listening is just that.
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  Here, Roxanne, I heard you say X Y Z.
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  Is that what you're saying?
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  So I think those basic things you know, afford you the capacity to understand, you know, what
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  how is Roxanne thinking, or how is Jason thinking?
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  And if we're more than likely to be thinking from a a negative state any of us in whatever
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  capacity, whether whether the basketball coach or the parents or the manager or the leader, We
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  have to recognize there's a lot going on within our space, us delivering the message, and then
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  that interpreting it and bringing it back to us.
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  That's a lot of work that we don't think about that Gabe goes into effective communication.
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  I love those technical techniques you talked about.
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  And another thing I learned along the way too, from an expert coach and consultant, like, he
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  was named Tim Spiker, And a lot of times he uses these words, be curious.
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  If you are a leader, be curious.
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  And that was when he shared that with me several months ago, that really resonated with
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  me because it's a simple framework of I can tell myself in the moment, be curious to remind
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  myself And then that gets me in the habit of, okay, let's not jump to conclusions.
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  Let's not assume that someone is doing this, you know, out of you know, poor motivations.
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  But let's be curious.
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  Let's ask some questions to really understand these signals that we're getting from this
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  person.
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  I'd say the to me, the interesting thing about this from Kate Murphy's book on on listening in
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  our inner dialogue and how translates into leadership is even though our inner dialogue
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  tends to be negative, we don't really like to have conversations with other people who are
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  negative which is, you know, ironic or an oxymoron, whatever we wanna call it.
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  It it's it's quite interesting that that's the case.
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  And she she has a chapter in the book that talks about how MRI studies have shown our
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  inner dialogue activates the same parts of our brain as when we're talking to someone else.
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  So just like you and I are having a conversation, and it's lighting up parts of our
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  brain right now.
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  When we're with ourselves and we hear our inner voice, it lights up the same parts of our
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  brain.
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  And so she she makes the point.
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  She says if we don't enjoy speaking with the most negative person we can think of in our
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  life and we wanna escape that conversation, why do we let our inner dialogue put so much head
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  trashed in our brains that affect us from being the best we can be in leading ourselves and
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  leading others?
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  And it's, you know, it's it's like, it's like a ticker tape that keeps going.
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  Right?
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  So what, you know, when I I coach people, I will say to them, you know, we normally have, I
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  would say, to your point, about 4 kind of distortions and a distortion is just something
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  that's kind of crooked thinking, I call it.
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  Right?
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  It's like I have no evidence to support what I'm telling myself right now, but most of us,
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  regardless if you've had a perfect scenario in your in your life throughout, we we we kinda
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  seem to go to 3 or 4 of them.
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  And then when we're tired, we're worse at it.
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  You know, that bull horn gets, you know, louder and louder.
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  And and then we don't stop to reflect, and I think that's a lot of times, you know, that
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  importance of quietness that we talk about with awareness, right?
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  To really kind of tune into that voice and to challenge it, right, to say, you know, what
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  evidence do you have to support that that person was being you know, disrespectful to
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  your point earlier.
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  Well, I've, you know, give me 3 facts that you know for a fact that that person in that
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  interaction was respectful.
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  And when you really kind of stop and you start to write down, I have no in I don't, in fact,
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  don't have any facts.
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  It's what I'm telling myself, then you could say, what can I say to myself instead?
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  Maybe, you know, Roxanne had a tough day because you know, her young child was up and,
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  you know, maybe things aren't going so well, and then that allows you to flip the thinking
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  but again, it's that time to slow down.
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  I also, you know, kind of befriend those themes within your mind to recognize them and then
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  say, you know, what can I learn from it?
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  But I think a lot of people, may not take that time.
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  I don't know.
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  With leaders, do you find that when you're coaching leaders or kind of some of the people
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  that, do lead would deal with when you're kind of trying to get a sense of awareness with the
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  leaders do you find that open to some of the things we're discussing?
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  Yeah.
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  Most of the ones we work with, without a doubt, They want to be strong leaders.
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  They care about their people.
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  And it's not just about bottom line business results.
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  I mean, you can tell there's a genuine care there you know, uh-uh, about their people,
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  almost like in the Greek, I think it's called Fileo.
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  It's an aspect of love.
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  Which is just an admiration and love for other people.
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  And and most of the leaders that we work with, I think just by nature of of what our software
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  solution does, they want those things.
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  They want to pour into their people.
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  They want to be doing, not just you know, the basics.
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  They wanna go above and beyond to help their people aspire.
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  They want to help them dream.
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  They want them, to have happy lives at home And if that means working on communication skills
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  at work, that also help them communicate better at home with their kids and their spouse, you
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  know, or their friends, then that's a win win win all the way around.
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  And so most of of those leaders we do work with they're naturally curious in this way.
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  And so they're kind of what what I would consider fertile or or ripe for this kind of
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  coaching.
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  We haven't worked with very many where they have to be coaxed and to believe that these
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  things are important.
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  They're more most of the leaders we work with are like, yep.
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  We believe it.
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  Now show us how are we actually going to do this and develop these skills?
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  And then the neat thing with our customers as well is what the scalability of the platform is
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  Let's take what we're teaching our leaders, and it's good for everyone.
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  Let's get it to everyone in the organization because it's gonna be beneficial for them and
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  being leaders in their homes, leaders with their friends, so on and so forth.
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  So there's so much you know, context variability there that's beautiful.
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  I think about authentic leadership is it's not only beneficial for the leader, and for the
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  company, but it's beneficial for the people, and it gives you, I don't like the term soft
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  skills, but it gives you those those skills of being a well rounded human being and knowing
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  how to, engage with others that's gonna be wonderful regardless of what context you find
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  yourself.
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  Absolutely.
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  And I think, you know, with my new book, that's coming out in October on authentic heart
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  leadership, and working with resilient teams.
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  I talk a lot about, you know, the leader or the manager that becomes a leader to really
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  understand what I call their stress signature, right?
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  Because I would say that oftentimes Most leaders, you know, are are very they're very
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  driven.
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  They're one pointed.
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  They are very good at a certain subset, but sometimes what happens is they can put their
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  feet to the fire at a different, temperature that's a little bit higher because they
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  compared to the people they're leading.
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  And what I find is that they because they can trudge through so many things, without thinking
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  of themselves, that oftentimes a lot of, leaders end up coming to seek, coaching or
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  executive coaching, or any kind of support a little bit late.
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  So I often talk a little bit about understanding earlier, what is my response?
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  Okay.
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  What parts am I in that window of tolerance of taking care of myself, or I might always tipped
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  out that my expectations are so high of others around me, that I'm putting them under duress,
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  and I may not know it.
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  So let's talk a little bit about awareness from a stress perspective.
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  So with, with leaders, what kind of things do you kind of, deal with with leaders in
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  reference to stress that you find has been helpful, to helping them with awareness.
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  Yeah.
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  I love what you can share that's gonna be in your forthcoming book, and I can't wait to read
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  it.
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  But that idea, the stress signature, is brilliant Roxanne.
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  And, obviously, you know, with you being a psychotherapist, on my background as a
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  psychologist.
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  I tend to think of things.
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  Old habits are are hard to break.
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  I tend to think of in terms of antecedent's behavior and consequences.
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  So what happens before a behavior, then you have the behavior and then what happens after
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  it?
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  And a lot of the work would try and do is around the antecedent.
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  So what are the things?
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  What are the signals you can tell.
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  Some of them are biological.
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  Like, if you can train yourself to be present in the moment and you can actually feel your
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  heart rate, you know, starting to increase That's a sign.
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  That's a physiological response, to stress.
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  It's not always a bad thing, but certainly it's something that you wanna be aware of.
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  That can then start triggering certain kinds of inner dialogue again back to the inner dialogue
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  of thoughts that you need to use to prime yourself for the situation that you're in so
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  that you can handle it more appropriately.
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  So recognizing some of those physiological signs, sweaty palms, you know, things of that
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  nature, I think, are really important.
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  But then after that is once you recognize the signals, then you gotta have the the tools in
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  your tool about Okay.
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  I'm recognizing this about myself.
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  Now how am I going to engage with this person?
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  And so Obviously, each person is gonna be a little bit different.
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  For some who who tend to be a little bit more, oh, this happened.
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  I'm gonna go right now and go solve this.
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  Probably would be wise, you know, to take a little time, you know, before something happens
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  and to go interject yourself into the situation.
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  Take some time, you know, to do a little bit of research, some fact finding to understand it.
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  Because we definitely have worked with leaders that very much are, well, I'm gonna go solve
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  this right now.
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  Mhmm.
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  And so they'll quote unquote grab the bull by the horns.
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  And so even though it may not be something that necessarily pertains to them, they see the
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  quickest way of dealing with it is for them to intervene and to do it.
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  And that can often backfire because now you may have undercut potentially a manager or a
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  supervisor who really should be the one in power to handle that situation.
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  Potentially with an employee or vice versa, you know, if it's something an employee is coming
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  to you with.
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  So I think there's always that balance of recognizing junior signals and then making sure
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  you've got the tools in your toolbox, and that's where experts like you come in to really
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  help is they need a wide array of skills.
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  Obviously, you know, we could go on and on probably for an hour a half today.
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  Of, you know, brainstorming the different skills or things that we have have done with
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  leaders to put in their toolbox, there's many of them but I think the the main point from
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  that is every context can be or situation can be unique.
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  And so the more tools that you have at your disposal if we're training those leaders and
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  equipping them with the skills to really be collaborative problem solvers, to think deeply
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  on the situation before acting, then that's gonna give you a higher probability of them
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  pulling a plan together that's going to work for the parties involved and come to a
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  successful resolution.
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  And seldom do I see the impulsiveness of this happened.
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  I'm gonna go take care of it right now.
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  There may be some situations that require that Like, if it's a safety measure or something
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  like that, but most decisions throughout the day or conflict or challenges that come up, the
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  prudent approach is to use those self awareness skills if you don't necessarily have them
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  enlisting support from a coach or a consultant.
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  That works on those things is absolutely critical.
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  And then once you have those skills, start to use them to really collaboratively problem
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  solve with your people, because as we know, as therapists, you can't solve people's problems.
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  No.
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  Many people think what we do.
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  And and, you know, when they when you start to say to them, you know, I can Harry, let's play
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  a game.
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  I'm gonna tell you exactly what to go out and do.
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  And I'm gonna write it out for you, and I'm gonna sign it.
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  And then you're gonna go out and you're gonna try it for a week.
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  Maybe you kinda go, oh, 2nd week, you're gonna fall flat, and you're gonna come back and
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  you're gonna be mad.
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  Because it's framed in my space versus yours.
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  Right?
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  And it's really about understanding of what, who, what, why, and when.
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  Like, you know that stuff in reference to what the fit is for that person.
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  And I think leaders as well, because leaders have they're well intentioned and they're you
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  know, they're they're driven and they get a lot done and, you know, those types of things.
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  But I even when working with, leaders in awareness, something as simple, and this is
• 23:11
  just a little strategy that I use with them is that they put alerts, have them put alerts on
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  their phone, to queue them up to actually do something to stay present based on the the type
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  that gets hyper or hypo So hyper is just like it sounds.
• 23:27
  They get a little bit kind of, you know, frenetic or hypo means that they get frozen.
• 23:32
  So throughout the day, this is something that I've done with of CEOs I've been working with,
• 23:37
  and they come back and they go, it can't be that simple.
• 23:40
  And then they try it.
• 23:41
  And then they come back, and they're like, Wow.
• 23:44
  So I'll make them come up with something as silly as what's one of the songs that you,
• 23:49
  like, every time you listen to it, it brings you back you know, into a, like, a happy place,
• 23:54
  and then they'll, you know, they'll tell me.
• 23:56
  So I say, okay, perfect.
• 23:57
  That's gonna be one of your cues.
• 23:59
  Okay.
• 24:00
  So visually, you know, so if maybe for me it would be an ocean, alright?
• 24:04
  So then you're gonna, you know, load that on the top of your phone at sites on taste touch
• 24:09
  smell and I make them put those cues in with the, actual, alarms, and they come back, and
• 24:17
  they're like, I can't believe it.
• 24:20
  I, I did more.
• 24:22
  Plus at the end of the day, I had energy.
• 24:26
  I had energy to go back, you know, to come home and, you know, takes my voice to the park or,
• 24:30
  you know, to get out to have that swim or versus being completely depleted to the point
• 24:36
  where, you know, I still work the same amount of time, but because I took those little breaks
• 24:41
  to kinda stay present, and I I was, you know, had a lot stay same things, balls in the air
• 24:48
  that I was, you know, oftentimes, the CEOs were shocked that that they were experiencing
• 24:53
  because but they hadn't thought about that.
• 24:55
  And it was very long.
• 24:56
  It could be 2 minutes.
• 24:57
  It could be, you know, something very simple.
• 25:00
  And and then they kinda were present again, and then they could go on and be more productive.
• 25:05
  So again, it's that whole element of being mindful and being in the present.
• 25:09
  So that you can kind of take that mental break.
• 25:12
  Do something that replenishes you and go on again.
• 25:15
  Music is so powerful to do that.
• 25:17
  I I definitely have songs that I play whenever I'm about to step into certain kinds of
• 25:22
  meetings to get my mindset right.
• 25:24
  Right.
• 25:24
  Right.
• 25:25
  In that category.
• 25:26
  And I think what's so cool about that too is even musicians themselves, you know, talk about
• 25:33
  having an alter ego that they step into before they hop in
• 25:37
  Thanks for tuning in to authentic living with Roxanne, creating the space for positive,
• 25:43
  healthy change.
• 25:44
  Roxanne is a keynote speaker psychotherapist, and coach to work with Roxanne, visit
• 25:50
  roxannedurhaj.com/blueprint.
• 25:54
  We'll see you next time.
• 25:56
  Unauthentic living with Roxanne.