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The Dark Side of Whisky Investing - Hil Tse Timeless & Tasty · Whisky Unfinished

0:00
Criminals exploiting an unregulated trade.
0:03
Cascadia, Braeburn, a couple other companies.
0:05
Investors losing all they have.
0:08
I felt that I knew that is what was happening.
0:11
At the moment, we do not know whether they actually sold cask that they don't exist or they just don't have the correct paperwork for everyone who bought.
0:19
Definitely at some level, somebody knew they were selling a cask that they didn't have.
0:23
I'll be a little bit more neutral on that side.
0:25
Yeah, you can be neutral all you want.
0:26
This is my podcast.
0:29
You are a solo entrepreneur.
0:31
You run the whole show yourself.
0:33
Started my company in 2016, called it Timeless and Tasty.
0:36
Didn't know anyone in Hong Kong.
0:38
I was literally knocking on doors and saying like, hi, I'm Hil, do we need any whiskies?
0:43
You've got six whiskies here today, some cool old rare stuff.
0:46
31-year-old Clynelish.
0:48
There's no whisky that this is more female whisky.
0:50
34-year-old Auchentoshan.
0:53
I cannot drink a whole bottle by myself.
0:54
Challenge accepted.
0:55
36-year-old Benriach.
0:58
You're one of the only people in the world who could out-drink me.
1:01
35-year-old Aultmore.
1:03
If I would be a male and I run my business, I would have been much further ahead.
1:07
32-year-old Glen Keith.
1:09
You're telling me you're smarter than me.
1:11
I just know something first.
1:13
34-year-old LaFroy.
1:15
Did you ever feel being a female ever came up against anything?
1:19
Oh yeah, I called myself in front of that guy to call my boss.
1:23
You called your own boss?
1:25
I was so pissed off.
1:28
Hey guys, Rakesh here, the whisky Chief.
1:30
Firstly, thank you so much for watching this.
1:32
I really appreciate it.
1:33
If you could like and subscribe below, it really helps us bring the best whiskies to you and keep doing this show the best we can.
1:39
Thanks.
1:40
All right, hell, welcome to the show.
1:42
And we'll go ahead and talk about our first whisky.
1:45
We've got six whiskies here today, some cool old rare stuff.
1:49
We'll talk about them one by one.
1:51
We're going to start on the top left if you want to join me.
1:54
So this is a, these are all cast samples and this is a 31-year-old Klein Leash.
2:00
So coming up on 32 years old, 1993, 47% ABV.
2:07
And for me, my favorite part about Klein Leash, like I can always tell is that pineapple, right?
2:13
Like for me, it's like the first note, right?
2:16
It's like the first note of the song.
2:18
Like for me, it's like the first note right out of the box.
2:21
This is just like fresh, fresh pineapple, which happens to be Friday at five o'clock here.
2:28
So firstly, cheers.
2:31
And so we're indulging with a few more whiskies than we normally do since it's Friday, but.
2:36
Yeah, thank you Rickesh for having me here.
2:39
Oh, it's a pleasure.
2:39
We're honored to be here at your podcast.
2:43
Yeah, thanks.
2:43
And to start with a 31-year-old Klein Leash.
2:45
You know, it's not a bad way to start things, right?
2:47
So yeah, let's kick off.
2:50
I'm very curious to learn more about, you are a solo entrepreneur, meaning that you run your whole business, which I'm amazed by, and we'll get into, you can talk a little bit more about your businesses as well, but you run the whole show yourself, which I find more than amazing.
3:06
What is like the biggest benefit of like being a solo entrepreneur and what's the biggest challenge?
3:13
And don't say, obviously you don't have people, we know that, but like from your experience doing this, what's the biggest, yeah.
3:22
So I'm the owner and founder of Whiskies and More and my online shop, Timeless and Tasty.
3:27
I started nine years ago.
3:29
Amazing.
3:30
It started out as a hobby, passionate about drinking whisky.
3:33
And one of the brands that I'm carrying now asked me like, oh, hey, my products are not in Hong Kong yet.
3:40
So do you want to be my importer?
3:42
And I was like, oh, I'm just going to festivals, tasting whiskies, having fun.
3:46
And now I have to work.
3:49
But at that point in time in my life, I just moved from London to Hong Kong, changed career.
3:53
I was in investment banking before, moved here.
3:57
And I thought about myself, I'm still young.
3:59
If I don't do the career change, I'm not never going to do it.
4:01
So I took up the challenge and started my own business.
4:05
Didn't know anyone in Hong Kong, never in F&B before, just literally cold calling.
4:10
See, to me, that sounds scary.
4:11
Did you, were you scared at that time?
4:13
What emotions, what feelings were, if you can remember to like nine years ago, were you just kind of young and excited and said, fuck it, let's go for it?
4:22
Or was it like, shit, I don't know what I'm doing, but let's give it a try.
4:25
Like, where were you?
4:27
More the latter, but with a business model in mind, obviously, just have a plan and then try to execute it.
4:34
Give yourself like a year or two and see how it goes.
4:37
So I was literally knocking on doors and say like, hi, I'm Hil, do we need any whiskies?
4:43
And they're like, what, who are you?
4:45
And this was to what, more like bars, restaurants, retail, like whose doors were you knocking on?
4:49
I started targeting really whisky bars or hotels where they have a whisky oriented bar.
4:59
Because that's just the.
5:00
versus low-hanging fruit, right?
5:01
And did you really start with like one, I guess, brand that you were representing or one independent bottling brand, is that right?
5:07
That you were representing, who asked you to be?
5:08
I started with two because they're both very small.
5:11
So in terms of quantities, it was not very high.
5:14
And I wanted, from my perspective, have a little bit, a bigger range than just like one or two products.
5:21
It helps, obviously, if you go to different places and you have a couple of more products to offer.
5:27
Yeah, but I think it's an interesting lesson because I think for a lot of people, we're both entrepreneurs.
5:32
For a lot of people, I think starting is the hard part.
5:34
I feel like a lot of people in the world have ideas maybe or things they wanna do, but they don't really know how to start.
5:40
So I'm kind of inspired by the fact that you started with basically two products and just started with, I think, one client.
5:47
And then, obviously, you've grown that significantly over the nine years, but you are still a solo entrepreneur.
5:54
So let's go back to that.
5:55
What is the biggest benefit and what's the biggest challenge of being a solo operating entrepreneur?
6:02
So from the start, my idea was not to get any investment from outside.
6:08
The main reason is because I wanted to make all the decisions and I do accept that I grow less fast than if I would have more investments from outside.
6:18
For me, this business is not only making money, it's purely from out of passion.
6:24
Right, you love whisky.
6:25
Yeah, and therefore, I also want to have it.
6:28
Maybe you like control, I'm guessing, I'm sensing.
6:31
Yes and no, I want to control in my own life also.
6:34
So for example, I do go to the gym six times a week.
6:37
Yeah, wow, I see that.
6:38
And if I have external investors with certain goals and certain KPIs, probably I cannot be as flexible as I am now, so that is- Clearly, I don't go to the gym six times a week.
6:51
So I think that's truth, yeah.
6:54
Yeah, so- And I have investors and KPIs and all these things, so maybe that's why.
6:58
So yes and no, so it's like the pro is I'm very flexible.
7:02
I can actually do, I'm going to Japan tomorrow for holiday.
7:06
Right.
7:07
I go to a gym, I choose which meetings to take and which meetings not to take.
7:11
Well, thank you for taking this one, I really appreciate it.
7:14
And so what's the biggest challenge then?
7:15
The challenge is, is because you don't have such a big budget, you can not always compete with other companies who have a bigger budget in terms of marketing, in terms of works for staff.
7:28
But even nine years later, this hasn't changed.
7:31
You don't feel any inclination.
7:32
I mean, I'm not saying take investors and give up control, but you could hire a junior something.
7:39
I'm sure you could afford that if you wanted to, right?
7:41
So this is a very conscious decision.
7:43
It is a conscious decision.
7:44
So it has to do with experience as well.
7:46
So we went through in Hong Kong with a protest and COVID.
7:50
So I was very happy to actually has a very lean business.
7:53
Right.
7:54
You didn't have to cut anyone.
7:55
Nope.
7:56
And I could actually...
7:57
Didn't have to have a tough decision, discussion with yourself.
8:01
Yeah, but also for staff, because you do, for me, the biggest assets are your staff.
8:06
So if you have to let people go, you might not be able to hire them back.
8:10
And sometimes it's just easier to be lean.
8:14
I have actually hired quite a lot of part-timers, but I feel maybe...
8:19
Like project-based kind of stuff.
8:20
Yeah, project-based.
8:22
And I just haven't found a one that I felt like, okay, I can trust or work with.
8:28
All right, you heard it here, Hil's hiring in case you're good enough, but only apply if you're good enough.
8:34
Let's try the second whisky.
8:35
And I want to delve into a little bit more about COVID.
8:38
To me, COVID, the pandemic feels like a lifetime ago.
8:41
Like, but it's 2025 now.
8:43
So in Hong Kong, especially, we didn't really get out of the COVID till, was it late 2022?
8:49
I think it was.
8:50
I remember, I think January, 2023 was the first flight I took out of Hong Kong, knowing that there was no quarantine on the way back.
8:59
I was like, we had that freedom.
9:01
True.
9:02
And I think we were the last, literally the last city in the world to get rid of the mask ban.
9:08
Do you remember this?
9:09
Like we were still wearing masks when the whole world was flying around, giving each other whatever virus they wanted.
9:15
And we were still wearing masks like outdoors and things like that.
9:19
I think that went on till like Feb or March, 2023.
9:23
So now we're in July, 2025.
9:25
So it's like not even two and a half years since COVID.
9:29
But to me, it feels like a whole lifetime ago.
9:32
Like, how do you think of COVID now?
9:35
You mentioned the impact on your business.
9:37
Like when you reflect back on that time, what do you take away from it, if anything?
9:42
Yeah, for me, it feels also a lifetime ago.
9:45
Yeah, I can't believe it's only like two years.
9:47
It's not that long, two years, right?
9:49
Actually, recently someone asked me like, oh, I cannot come to your event because I have COVID.
9:53
And I thought by myself, oh, you still test for COVID?
9:55
It wasn't like- How do you know?
9:57
Yeah, like you have tests?
9:58
Anyway.
9:59
For me, it's like- a timeline in my life because now if I try to like remember something I was like oh I did that trip in like 2018 oh that was bc before covid everything for me is bc or ac before covid or after covid because it was like a milestone also my daughter was born in 2020 right so we were like literally in the thick of yeah in the thick of things so for me covid has a bit two sides especially for hong kong so the start of covid i felt like oh we actually have a lot of freedom if you compare to other countries in hong kong we could go out anytime you want we never really had a lockdown exactly like most cities or big cities at least had a proper lockdown we never had that so for me for example i uh i'm in office by myself most of the time so i could still do the bc type of schedule uh like wake up in the morning go to office work there go home no gym though no gym did that impact you like you think mentally so i started really intensively go to gym like during covid when i was actually for five months in phuket all right okay that was in 2022 when everyone opened and then hong kong closed down that's when the that's when the crossfit yeah okay yeah before i was going maybe two to three times a week i see not as extreme as now so what was going on with your business during covid so you're selling whiskies to bars to retail shops obviously people are going out a little bit but nowhere near as much demand i assume fell off like what was going on so on the trade side uh it went just to zero basically um but lucky i had an online shop already okay so because it started out as a couple of friends asked me oh hey here where can i buy your whiskies and a lot of the retail shops in hong kong are they didn't know that much about ibiz yet so um the only way i thought like oh i just need to create an online shop so i was actually literally googling like how to build an online shop yeah literally 101 yeah that's great i love that today you could ask ai to do it for you exactly a lot more answers but back then in 2017 not really yeah so i had a very functional online shop okay but uh it grew like massively during covid so i was very lucky that but how what was the market i'm curious because again it's just because of everyone uh had to stay home right so they are not spending in restaurants and bars but they are home and then if you're the whole day home they're actually starting to google or surf like oh where can i buy and was it a lot of google was a lot of word of mouth do you know like where the traffic was coming from i think it's it's both uh we started to do a bit more ads and facebook post more uh content so to get more awareness and uh that was just the right timing so from our like our trade channel like fell off the cliff because everything closed yeah but then the retail channel actually went through a roof so super positive part of yes so that's a very very good part of covid and i for me as i said i could go every day to office so mentally for me personally was actually quite okay so i still could go out have like a different environment to work and then get home it's still like my home part yeah quite lucky a lot of people around the world definitely didn't have that and yeah a lot of other issues as we know how was the client leash what's your thoughts i mean i really like the client niche um is it tropical kind of as you expect is it what else would you say about it what i really like better at this than me so and we're both in the whisky industry but i trust your uh nose and palate more i would not complain to be um as the first whisky of the friday okay yeah it delivers it delivers yeah and i think that's what client leash is really all about right and i think client leash for for people who don't know much about it i feel like it's a very unique taste profile and it's like tropicalness it's always tropical yeah and i think if you like that style i think no one delivers that style better than than client leash in like mostly bourbon cast i don't think i've ever had a sherry client leash are there any out there maybe i guess i'm sure there are but not that many for me still the bourbon cast will actually like give you all the fruit flavors and you're a bourbon cast girl i know unfortunately we are gonna move on to some sherry cast i think you're gonna have to bear with me here so the second whisky we're having 34 year old aukintoshan 1991 34 years old 47.8 abv this i love personally this is kind of one of my favorite whiskies right now this cask particularly i think what's interesting about it so aukintoshan as you know triple distilled lowland distillery but what i like about this cask is i feel like the wood was pretty active and so you're not getting like a very light aukintoshan you're getting actually a a fruit forward i mean it's still old so it's not you know crazy in your face but it's nice it's balanced it's kind of like jammy. It's like it's got like more texture and layers than I would have expected, I guess.
15:06
It does. So you say it's sherry cask, this one?
15:09
I think it was a bourbon cask that was just very active.
15:12
Yeah, I don't think there's any sherry.
15:14
No, it's not a sherry cask.
15:15
Yeah, we are going to move on to more sherry style whiskies later.
15:19
This is still a bourbon cask, but I think this is kind of the the midway segment because it's just a bourbon cask that for whatever reason was just more active.
15:27
Right. And I think to me, like, that's kind of the beauty and the fun of single cask whiskies, I guess, is you really don't know what you're going to get to some degree in the sense that like some wood is more active, some wood is less active, the ABV sometimes drops off super quickly.
15:43
Sometimes the ABV is like super high for an old whisky.
15:47
And like, that's the fun of single cask whiskies.
15:50
Are you more of a single cask person like when you drink stuff or what do you like to drink when you're let's say Hil goes home this evening, what would you open up, you know, if you were at home?
16:00
For me, I would not like distinguish this way.
16:05
IBs or single cask or no single cask is really depends on my mood.
16:08
Yeah. OK.
16:09
I have specific whiskies that are OBs that I really like, especially now in Hong Kong.
16:14
It's summer, it's super hot outside.
16:16
I love something fruity, light that you can make in a highball or just drink as a neat.
16:21
Are you a cocktail person?
16:22
You put stuff in the highball?
16:23
Only in a highball sometimes, because sometimes when you come inside, you want something fresh, fresh and then you cannot drink a whisky neat like this.
16:31
It would be a waste.
16:32
So I would just have like, you need that cold weather a little bit to like, just cool down a little bit before you start whisky.
16:39
Single cask, I do love to explore a lot, but it really depends on my mood.
16:44
If I'm like a very busy day, intense, I just don't want to think about it.
16:49
I just like have something nice, something intense, maybe sherry cask or pita whisky.
16:53
Yeah. Nice.
16:54
All right.
16:55
So we've learned a little bit about your starting off kind of in whisky nine years ago and what that was all about, a little bit about the tough and the good parts of the pandemic. Where are we today?
17:06
What's going on in the whisky market from your point of view?
17:09
I guess globally, like there's obviously been a lot of negativity around cask and we've had a couple of companies that have been fraudulent.
17:17
I think that's really hurt things.
17:19
I think more so in the UK, there's like big news.
17:23
But like, what's your view on kind of what's going on around the whisky market, you know, around the world? And then we'll talk about Hong Kong later.
17:31
Yeah, I think as yeah, this is a very good point for a whisky investment.
17:36
So it started, I think, also during COVID, that a lot more people are or buying bottles.
17:41
So the prices of in general for spirits, I will not say only whisky, why not?
17:45
Because it's just pure demand and supply, right?
17:48
But for whisky, I think it was just a lot of people talking about certain distilleries, certain bottles.
17:54
So it like went through the roof, some auction prices.
17:58
Then there are always opportunists in any industry where they think like, OK, we can actually make money out of this asset and treat it as a commodity.
18:08
So they start trading casks.
18:10
But because it's not like a financial asset, there's no regulations.
18:16
And people were just like, OK, I'm buying this cask.
18:18
So without actually knowing what they are buying and the risks.
18:22
Yeah, and I think I agree, unfortunately.
18:25
One, there's no regulation.
18:27
But two, I feel like it's not just not enough education, to be honest.
18:30
Like people didn't know that a delivery order is the only thing that from an official point of view gives you that ownership.
18:40
And so people started accepting like random certificates that I could print on any printer anywhere and say, oh, here you go.
18:47
Here's your 30 year old Macallan cask on this piece of paper I just printed.
18:51
It doesn't mean you actually have a Macallan cask, right?
18:53
And this this is a link between the regulation and education.
18:57
So if you're not forced to educate it in the right way, in other words, like if you sell a stock and you don't give all the risks, then you can be penalized by the regulator.
19:09
Right. But for a cask, if I give you like this printed, nicely color printed certificate and no one tells you about that, this is actually fake or is this.
19:18
Well, I would not say it's fake.
19:19
It's just a piece of paper that doesn't mean anything.
19:21
Yeah. And the person who buys it, they don't know.
19:24
And there's no resources for them to find either.
19:27
So it's a bit tricky, I feel, because I know like yourself, you guys doing it the correct way, but there are so many people who are trying to just make quick money out of it and they just actually destroy the whole market.
19:40
I agree. It's really unfortunate.
19:42
These kind of scammers, fraudulent companies, Cascadia, Braeburn.
19:46
And it was a couple of other companies kind of involved in this.
19:48
And I feel like the hardest part, to be honest, is I feel being in the whisky industry, I felt that I knew that is what was happening.
19:56
Like I could like tell I could talk by talking to other customers.
20:00
I knew that there was this level of fraudulence, but I don't feel like there was really an opportunity to speak up.
20:06
I mean, I tried that a few times. There's like all kinds of, you know, slander regulations and blah, blah.
20:12
Like if you go up and go, Hey, I think that company is fake.
20:15
It's a defamation.
20:16
Yeah, defamation. So it was a really tricky place where obviously we tried as much as possible to take the positive and be and just be focused on, you know, consumer advocacy and consumer education, because that's how you battle this kind of thing.
20:31
But I think a lot of, I don't know, did you think this was going to happen?
20:33
Did you did you think that, hey, you know, this was this was bound to happen at some point?
20:38
Yeah, companies were going to go under.
20:39
True. So I do think it was going to happen, actually, because it was just not well, even if they're not actually committing fraud, they were just not set up correctly.
20:52
So at the moment, we do not know whether they actually sold cast that they don't exist or they just don't know, don't have the correct paperwork for everyone who bought something.
21:01
I'm going to go ahead and go on a limb and say it was the first time.
21:03
I'll be a little bit more neutral on that side.
21:06
Yeah, you can be neutral all you want.
21:08
This is this is my podcast.
21:09
I'm going to go out and say, I think there was.
21:12
Yeah, I think these people knew what they were doing at what level.
21:15
I don't know. But definitely at some level, somebody knew they were selling a cast that they didn't have or they thought they could go buy it later or whatever and make it up.
21:25
But this kind of stuff happened in the wine market.
21:27
I remember like 10 years ago, it was a big company, Australian Wine Index or something went under.
21:31
I know this happened in the art market.
21:33
Like this is not any luxury products.
21:35
Yeah, this is not the first time like this has happened.
21:39
And I actually I feel like some of the same people, to be honest, that have kind of moved around from different asset classes.
21:45
Like you say, wherever they can make a quick buck and wherever they can convince somebody to buy something without really them doing all the all the due diligence.
21:55
And I think they really have like these crazy pressure sales tactics.
21:59
That's the part that I guess I don't I didn't fully understand or appreciate that, like how good these guys are at getting people to buy something that they don't really even want or need.
22:10
But they feel this pressure that they have to buy it.
22:13
And then we had clients, for example, who would come to us and ask us about their cast that they had bought, let's say, at another company.
22:20
And we would say, you don't have the right paperwork.
22:22
And then they go back, try to get the right paperwork or try to find their cask and kind of eventually come to a solution.
22:28
And we say, why don't you tell everyone that this is not a good company to work for?
22:33
And what I realize is I didn't appreciate is especially in Asian culture, people don't want to outwardly say I was made a fool of.
22:41
Like they don't want to they don't want to go out there and tell their friends or the community or or publicly on like social media and go, hey, these guys are a fraud and I fell for it.
22:50
Which actually is a disservice, unfortunately, to others who don't get to learn from that experience.
22:56
But I understand, obviously, like you don't want to be the person getting, hey, they they they robbed me.
23:01
You know, I think it's more cultural thing.
23:06
It's just a cultural behavior that they are not going to tell you what like mistake they made.
23:16
But for for my part, every time I do an event or tasting like the last past, I think, two and a half years since Covid, when we do events again.
23:26
I every tasting someone will ask me, so what do you think about whisky investments?
23:31
And I'll I just do my duty by saying, like, look, you can you can make your own decision.
23:37
But one, it's not unregulated, depreciating asset.
23:41
You cannot move the cars.
23:42
You probably need a bottle.
23:43
There will be extra costs coming in.
23:44
Right. Not sure you have the paperwork.
23:47
I give just a couple of pointers for people to think.
23:50
And most of the events are in a corporate world.
23:52
So they have a finance background.
23:54
So I try to put like in a financial lingo, like if it was some other commodity, illiquid market.
23:59
No exit strategy, etc.
24:02
Would you do it?
24:02
Yeah. Would you like then please make up your mind yourself?
24:05
Yeah. So I try not to like be too negative about it.
24:09
But I would just give them my honest opinion.
24:11
So they have the full information instead of just, oh, it'll be fine.
24:15
It's a triple percentage ROI or whatever.
24:19
And all these sales tactics.
24:21
So that part's unfortunate.
24:23
Yeah. I agree.
24:23
Just do your homework.
24:24
Do your due diligence.
24:25
Figure it out.
24:26
Make sure you find someone trusted.
24:28
You should do this for anything, right?
24:30
Like whatever.
24:30
Even if you buy a watch or for a female, buy a handbag.
24:33
Or sometimes you not just buy a handbag in Mongkok and say it's like a big brand on it.
24:38
You still do your research, right?
24:39
Yeah. I'm pretty sure that all the handbags in Mongkok are 100% real.
24:43
That's what I have found.
24:45
But you have to go up and then it's like, I don't know.
24:48
Cash only.
24:50
Yeah. If it's cash only and it's being sold on the side of the street, I feel that those are the people I trust.
24:56
That's where I get all my good stuff from.
25:00
If you made it this far in the episode, firstly, thank you so much.
25:03
As you know, it takes a lot to put on these kinds of episodes.
25:05
So if you can, like and subscribe below.
25:08
It really helps us bring the best whiskies to you and keep doing this show the best we can.
25:12
Thanks.
25:14
So what's the state of the whisky market now in terms of the bars, the restaurants, the hotels?
25:19
You're way more connected to that part than I am.
25:22
Is the Hong Kong person spending again?
25:26
Are we seeing a rise, a decline, a stagnant position?
25:32
Globally, the economy is quite challenging, especially with all the politics going on, the geopolitical things with the terrorists.
25:41
Why? What's going on?
25:44
I love every morning when I wake up and I get like six New York Times news alerts in the email.
25:51
I don't know why I still kind of am subscribed to New York Times.
25:53
I guess because I lived in New York for like 10 years.
25:55
So it's like from way back then.
25:57
I don't necessarily trust the New York Times any more than I trust Fox or anywhere else.
26:01
But I'm amazed by the number of news alerts that I'm getting like every single day.
26:08
Do you do you have this feeling or like what?
26:10
When you wake up and you hear whatever the latest trade deal, no trade deal, trade deal, tariffs, no tariffs.
26:16
And what's your reaction?
26:17
10 percent, 15 percent, 25 percent, zero.
26:20
It's almost like playing Uno, right?
26:22
Like plus five, plus two, skip you.
26:26
Yeah. And what's your reaction to that?
26:28
As an entrepreneur, as a seasoned business professional living in Hong Kong, we're still one of the top financial hubs in the world.
26:36
Like what's your reaction to like this much?
26:39
I don't know if you want to say chaos or uncertainty or whatever.
26:43
Yeah, for me, it's such a high volatility market.
26:46
I will be a little bit more careful in like for me as a business purchasing inventory.
26:53
Because I feel like if there is a high volatility, people tend to be a bit more cautious in spending.
26:58
They will still spend on smaller things, but not like the bigger luxury products.
27:03
I agree. I'm the same way.
27:04
I think I've kind of cut back on even my expensive wine and whisky habit.
27:08
So I will focus a little bit more on like a lower end of the pricing for the whisky.
27:14
So pushing a couple of new releases from distilleries rather than focus on really targeting like, oh, this is like a six thousand Hong Kong dollar bottle.
27:23
Right.
27:24
I will go up to maybe a thousand.
27:25
This is mostly that kind of stuff.
27:26
So I'm really lucky to be here to try it.
27:30
By the way, I love the Okintoshan.
27:32
Yeah, what spoke about it to you?
27:34
It has a lot of different layers.
27:36
As you said, like there are not that many Okintoshan this old out there.
27:41
91, is it already sold to Suntory at that time?
27:44
Oh, that's a great question.
27:46
I don't know.
27:47
We're not advanced enough a podcast to have like a research assistant to look shit up.
27:51
We don't have that.
27:52
So one day we'll be there and be like, hey, you know, look that up, Jeff.
28:00
But episode 30.
28:06
We have no idea.
28:07
But yeah, I think the Okintoshan, I agree.
28:09
It's a unique Okintoshan.
28:11
I thought you'd appreciate it, actually, because of the you're very good.
28:14
I think at detecting from having drank whisky together before layers and contacts to whisky.
28:21
And I think the texture is a little bit thicker.
28:25
I thought the Kleinage would be actually a little bit more waxier.
28:28
OK.
28:28
But then compared to the Okintoshan, I was actually thinking, oh, this Okintoshan is actually better value for.
28:35
Yeah, yeah, I agree.
28:37
All right.
28:37
And then when you're ready, we're going on to whisky number three.
28:46
So this is a 1989, 36 year old Ben Rick, 47 percent alcohol.
28:54
This to me, this is my style of whisky.
28:57
This is like me in a glass.
28:58
Not that anybody wants to imagine that.
29:00
But this is like exactly what got me into whisky.
29:06
Like this kind of sherry, like, you know, we're in space.
29:11
You're getting the for me, at least some of that caramel, that nuttiness, like well rounded.
29:18
Like this is what got me into whisky.
29:20
I would say probably about 12, 13 years ago.
29:23
So I was like a big wine person, always loved wine, wine with food.
29:27
And then, yeah, I think it was like 2013.
29:29
I started drinking other stuff after dinner.
29:31
Right.
29:31
It was like trying a tequila or a port or whatever.
29:35
And then I tried a whisky and I was like one of these kind of whiskies that got me into it.
29:38
What got you into whisky?
29:40
Do you remember like maybe the first time you had that moment where it was like, holy shit, this is this is different.
29:48
This is interesting.
29:49
I think it's a bit less romantic story.
29:52
I like it already.
29:54
I'm from Holland.
29:55
We're very pragmatic.
29:57
So for me, I love wine, too.
30:00
Sometimes at home, I cannot drink a whole bottle by myself.
30:02
So challenge accepted.
30:06
I have drink with you before.
30:07
You're one of the only people in the world who can drink, who could out drink me.
30:12
I think like easily you can out drink me.
30:15
It's the gym. It's the gym.
30:17
I got to get my metabolism up. So what you're saying, so I could drink more.
30:21
Is that the good, is that what getting healthy is all about?
30:23
Drink more.
30:24
Okay. It's good. Good, good note to self. Go to gym more so you could drink more.
30:29
But what was the moment for you or the experience?
30:32
So I was actually looking for something else that I can open a bottle in Hong Kong in this humidity and you can leave it for a long time.
30:39
So I tried a couple of things.
30:41
And one time I was actually at one of the gatherings with friends and some people brought some whisky. I can't remember which bottles, but we just start with Obies probably.
30:49
Wait, what's this humidity thing all about? What are you saying?
30:52
So what I meant is like, if you open a bottle of wine and you just drink one glass out of it and you leave it out, then you kind of need to drink it within a couple of days, right?
31:00
This is pre Corvin.
31:01
Yes. Yeah. Understood.
31:03
So for me, very pragmatic.
31:04
I was looking for something else that I can actually open like five bottles, try all little bit different things from it and then just leave it there for a year. And it's still good. And that's how I got into whisky.
31:16
Very interesting.
31:17
So you were into whisky way before you started a business in whisky.
31:20
Is that fair to say? How, like from a young age?
31:23
Well, not young age. It's about 14, 15.
31:28
When did you start? When did this whisky thing start for you?
31:31
It's a different story. I worked in a restaurant where my parents, like it's, it's a lot of what kind of restaurant? It's a Chinese restaurant in Holland.
31:38
So it's a similar thing where they served whisky, no whisky, but a lot of different spirits. Okay. And because my parents, uh, Dutch was not very good. I was always standing in front to do all the orders.
31:51
You were front of house.
31:52
Yeah. So at some point in time, I like, it was a bit older, like maybe 14, 15.
31:57
I told my dad like, so what are these old dudes always drinking beer and Geneva?
32:02
What the hell is Geneva?
32:03
What is Geneva? I don't even know what Geneva is.
32:05
I'm not an old guy. What the hell is Geneva?
32:07
It's a typical drink in Holland, uh, like similar to gin.
32:11
Oh, okay.
32:12
But for the takeaway, they just like, Oh, they come on Sunday.
32:15
They either have a pint or a Geneva. So I asked my dad one time, so I think I should try all the spirits.
32:22
So otherwise I cannot explain to the customer.
32:24
It's an educational reason to be.
32:28
And my mom was like, nah, you're too young.
32:30
Train the staff.
32:31
And then my dad is one night where my mom was out there like, Hey, we're going to try this and this.
32:34
So it was 14 or 15. I was right. I guess I was right.
32:39
It was just an educational.
32:40
Yeah, of course. All for education. I mean, look for me, it's funny.
32:44
I don't think I realized this till many years later, like reflecting on it in terms of whisky, but growing up my dad always drank Cutty Sark, which is like a blended Scotch whisky.
32:55
And he would always have a Cutty Sark with like seven up or something. Right.
33:00
And when I was like relatively young, like even 11 or 12, he would like, if his friends were over, I would go and make the drinks.
33:07
So I was allowed to do that. And so the smell of the whisky, um, you know, pouring it out, like, I think that kind of somehow, you know, some things are subconscious from like, uh, you're already familiar with it. Yeah. So like, I, like, I have like a great affinity to kind of thinking of like, anytime I see a Cutty Sark bottle, it makes me think of my dad. Right.
33:26
Cause like, I remember the number of nights where he would have people over and my parents really great because I feel like, and I guess this was a different gender.
33:33
We didn't have iPads to go play on or anything anyway.
33:36
So I'd have to sit there and like, listen to this adult conversation as a, let's say teenager. Right.
33:42
And then interact a little bit. Mostly I was there to make the drinks.
33:45
I think now that I look back, but, uh, what was, what was the impact you think now looking back that working in your parents' restaurant had on you? What, what did you take away from that that makes you who you are today?
34:01
Um, with four whiskies in, so I'm going deep now on the question.
34:05
No, I think, um, because I started working when I was 12 just doing the dishes and all these things, I could see up close how it is to be a business owner.
34:14
My parents owned a restaurant, so it entails a lot more hard work than just people see from the outside.
34:21
Oh, it's just, Oh, you're the founder, the owner. It is cool.
34:24
But in the end, the responsibility is at your, it's yours.
34:29
And you do everything. I mean, you do tasting events, you're picking up whisky, you're delivering whisky, like whatever is needed.
34:34
You're doing it because if you don't do it, no one else is going to do it.
34:37
What I took away from my parents' business is actually to know upfront is going to be hard work. Don't expect that you're just going to sit back, have people to do things for you and they come to you.
34:47
So you have to hustle basically.
34:50
Super valuable lesson to learn at a young age.
34:52
Do you think you are aware of it at a young age or you're saying this now, like looking back, Hey, that kind of is a value that they.
35:00
still didn't meet through that experience.
35:01
You get what I'm asking?
35:02
Yeah, so at that age, I was like, oh, why can I not just watch TV like all my friends, right? But why do I need to stand in a restaurant?
35:08
But on the hindsight now, hey, actually, you already started having experience.
35:14
If you now study, you just, I want to go to an internship.
35:16
I need to do this to get experience.
35:18
For us, it was more natural.
35:20
So on the hindsight, it's actually not a bad thing.
35:24
Well, this next generation of kids are never going to work.
35:27
I mean, AI is going to be doing everything.
35:29
There's going to be robots for everything.
35:31
Yeah, and I feel you just get more street smart in that way.
35:35
So you learn different things that you would learn at school.
35:38
Yeah, I've been hearing a lot.
35:39
It's been curious to take your take on it, that actually the advice now to a lot of like people graduating, especially in the UK.
35:48
So I just came back from like a month and like spending around London and Scotland is to actually take up a trade job, to like go back to being like plumbers and handymen. And because those are the jobs that are not going to be able to be replaced by AI, which is so interesting, because I think in our generation, let's say, right, like we grew up where like that was the jobs people had.
36:12
Then there came this whole now there's technology jobs and finance jobs and all kinds of different jobs.
36:18
And now because we've been so good at that as a society, we've trained now AI agents to be able to do those jobs.
36:26
So actually go back to becoming a tradesperson, like plumber and all of this.
36:32
Right. Like it wasn't that long ago, maybe 10 years ago, we told every kid become a coder. Right.
36:37
It was like, if you want to succeed, go into computer science, become a coder.
36:42
And then now, unfortunately or fortunately, depending on how you look at it, most of those coding jobs, not all, but most of it is going to be Right. What's what's your take on like this whole evolution of, you know, what jobs are really important to young people today?
36:59
I think it's difficult being a young person today.
37:02
I think so, too.
37:04
So, first of all, social media for young people like we grew up without phones.
37:09
Right. I loved it.
37:11
Yeah, I love it.
37:11
Like mostly because no one took videos of the shit I did as a kid.
37:15
So that's the main reason I'm glad there were no phones.
37:17
So what happens there stays there.
37:18
Yeah, it's gone.
37:19
It's like Vegas.
37:20
It's gone.
37:21
So there's because of social media and because of these phones, I feel like all the kids have so much more pressure on them because everything they do can be recorded, can be posted on Internet.
37:34
So they're much more cautious, less free.
37:37
And then, as you said, for a job perspective, a lot of things like when we grew up, when we moved to our dorm in a uni, yeah, the only thing we can afford is IKEA. And there was no person who's going to assemble everything for you.
37:53
You have to do it yourself.
37:54
So yeah, I hated that, by the way.
37:56
Yeah, but you don't have any money.
37:58
So you kind of have to do it yourself.
37:59
I did it in New York.
38:00
And I really, really I think I actually hated the whole country of Sweden for a little while.
38:06
Except for the meatballs.
38:07
Maybe the meatballs are always great.
38:09
Have to love the meatballs.
38:10
But I had a period in my life where I was so angry at IKEA because I hated building that shit.
38:19
And I hated the fact that the instructions were somewhat in English, but not really.
38:24
And then I really, you know, the part that I really hate is you put all the pieces out and then you get one little Allen wrench as if that is supposed to somehow fucking save this whole thing that you have to build.
38:35
So anyway, that's a short rant on.
38:38
Yeah, I don't love IKEA.
38:39
I also don't like the whole experience.
38:40
That was the only thing we could afford as a student.
38:43
I had IKEA furniture when I first moved to New York and built tables and all that kind of stuff.
38:49
It was good quality furniture.
38:51
It's a great business model.
38:52
But because you did that, you know some things around the house, right?
38:56
In case your light bulb needs to be changed, you'd be able to do that, right?
39:00
That's about as far as it gets for me.
39:03
I wouldn't and definitely my wife wouldn't ever call me handy around the house.
39:08
That's not the kind of person I am particularly, but change a light bulb I think I could achieve.
39:13
Yeah, but small things at least you'd know or you can have an idea of what is wrong in the house.
39:19
Are you more of the like, because in your business you do everything.
39:22
Is that the way you are around the house?
39:25
I try to fix it myself first before I call a Sifu to come up.
39:28
Wow, I'm just impressed.
39:30
It's just because it's just faster.
39:31
I was like, OK, if I can figure this out, like within 50 minutes, it's fixed instead of me calling someone, waiting for an hour or maybe cannot come immediately.
39:41
This is the Dutch efficiency.
39:42
Yeah, you just want to get it fixed and move on.
39:44
You want to get it done.
39:45
All right.
39:46
Yeah, and I guess for like the current generation, they just never have to fix anything. Everything is fixed for them.
39:53
Well, not only do they not have to fix anything, they don't even have to do research. They don't have to think.
39:57
I mean, there's parts of thinking that involve.
40:00
I mean, that's true and not true.
40:02
Obviously, I'm talking about my own statement, but you do have to think of the prompt in order to get the research that you want.
40:09
So there is that level of thinking, but it's a different level of thinking to actually come up with the- It's not analyzing.
40:15
Right.
40:16
I think that's a good way to say it.
40:18
So we had the Ben Reick.
40:19
What did you think of Mr. Ben, Mr. Reick?
40:23
Are they coming together nicely?
40:25
It is very nutty.
40:26
And I think that's what I love about it.
40:28
It's the first thing I actually smell and taste is really, really nutty.
40:32
Yeah.
40:33
That's what got me into whisky.
40:34
This style, not this particular whisky, but this style of whisky is what I really love.
40:45
The next one actually relatively similar.
40:47
So 35-year-old Altmore, 1990, 46%.
40:52
A little bit different in terms of, I think, less nuttiness, but similar taste profile, I think, in terms of where we are.
40:59
A bit greener.
41:00
Yeah.
41:01
Straight away.
41:02
So I'm curious to hear your take.
41:08
Having been now in the industry for nine years, particularly the whisky industry, I think most people think of the whisky industry as quite a male-dominated industry.
41:16
I think especially on the production side and the distilling side, it's quite male-dominated.
41:21
I think now we're starting to see, obviously, that changing in different aspects.
41:25
Female distillers, all this kind of stuff.
41:28
Did you ever feel being a female in this?
41:31
Is that ever an issue that you even thought about or ever came up against anything?
41:35
Oh, yeah.
41:36
A lot.
41:37
Yeah.
41:38
So I started nine years ago, 2016, in Hong Kong.
41:41
I go into a bar.
41:43
I ask them, oh, do you like the whiskies?
41:45
Oh, should you not drink champagne or some sweet cocktail?
41:49
People actually said that to you?
41:50
And that's a bartender on the other side.
41:52
And I'm just like, no, I'll just have a whisky.
41:55
You would just go in and order a whisky, and somebody would try to talk you into what they think you should have a female-appropriate drink or whatever.
42:04
Whatever that means.
42:05
Yeah.
42:06
That's crazy.
42:07
It's crazy.
42:08
And does that still happen today?
42:09
I hope not.
42:10
Oh, no, no, not at all.
42:11
It changed a lot.
42:12
Why did it change?
42:13
What changed?
42:14
Well, Me Too has obviously had a spotlight on equality.
42:23
Within the whisky industry, there is one foundation in the UK, our whisky Foundation.
42:28
They've been promoting whiskies for everyone.
42:31
I've been doing quite a lot for myself as well to show everyone can drink whisky.
42:36
There's no whisky that this is more female whisky or this is male whisky.
42:40
whisky is whisky.
42:41
Everyone can drink it, right?
42:42
Yeah.
42:43
But obviously, traditionally, whisky is thought of.
42:46
And I still think today, I forget traditionally, even today, let's say for the average person, people think whisky is mostly drank by, generally, old white men.
42:55
And that's still the imagery that we get as a society, right?
42:59
I'm talking from TV, media, movies, that kind of like James Bond, like the Mad Men show, which I love.
43:05
It's a great show.
43:06
But it's guys in their 50s, in the 1950s, drinking whisky, treating women who only had secretarial positions terribly.
43:16
That's all of the stereotypes and connotations that I feel I grew up with or kind of thought about, right?
43:24
Yeah.
43:25
And so what is, I guess, is there enough happening to really appeal to women who feel that maybe, hey, whisky isn't for me because of what they've seen, but not actually tried?
43:37
Like, is there enough to target 50% of the population, right?
43:41
Like we shouldn't ignore female whisky drinkers.
43:45
For me, I feel like Hong Kong, because Hong Kong started drinking whisky much later than in Europe or US, I feel in Hong Kong, it's actually less divided.
43:55
If I go to tastings or if I host tastings, generally speaking, there is 30% female.
44:03
Or in bars, I can see more female actually ordering whisky.
44:06
So I'm very happy to see these kind of things.
44:08
And for me, I keep on just educating people or telling people whisky is for everyone.
44:12
Yeah, I think that's great.
44:13
Like I was in Shenzhen or Guangzhou last year, and we went to a whisky bar and it was mostly women in their, I would say, late 20s, maybe, or early 30s, sitting around one bottle in the middle.
44:27
They were drinking peaty, like heavy Lafroide whisky.
44:30
I loved seeing that.
44:31
I think that was fantastic.
44:32
And I think nobody told these women in Southern China that, hey, this is an old white man's drink.
44:38
You're not allowed to drink whisky.
44:39
Well, that was nine years ago.
44:41
So things have changed a lot.
44:42
That's good to hear that at least things have kind of moved on a little bit.
44:46
To be honest, in the whisky industry, if I would be a male and I run my business, I would have been much further ahead.
44:52
You think so?
44:53
I truly think so.
44:54
From which side?
44:55
From the getting access to suppliers?
44:57
Or you think like...
44:58
More from the business side, I think.
45:00
in the culture in Hong Kong, there's still a lot of people thinking, OK, female cannot be the boss.
45:08
I've been challenged like many, like a couple of times.
45:12
Oh, can I talk to your boss?
45:14
Like because your boss can make a decision on the pricing.
45:18
It's like, well, I can give you the pricing, right?
45:20
I'm the boss. I'm the boss.
45:22
I am the captain now.
45:24
You're too pretty, you're too young.
45:25
You cannot be the boss.
45:26
They actually would say things like you're too pretty and too young to be able to make the decision.
45:30
So one time I was just actually in front of the guy.
45:34
I have two phones, one personal phone, one work phone.
45:37
I call myself in front of him to call my boss.
45:40
You called your own boss?
45:41
I was so pissed off.
45:44
But because I explained the guy three times, like I can give you whatever price you want because I make the decision.
45:50
Right. And he just wouldn't believe it.
45:52
He wouldn't believe it.
45:53
So I called myself on the other phone and said, hi, this is the price.
45:57
And he was so pissed off and I just stood up and left.
45:58
Actually, I didn't even bother to do the deal.
46:00
Yeah, that guy's obviously not worth your time.
46:03
Yeah, there's at some point there's a self-respect and there's self-value.
46:07
I agree. If you don't respect me as a business owner, yeah, one deal more, one deal less.
46:12
So I'm a male owner, obviously a co-owner of a whisky business.
46:17
Do you think there's something more I could do or like that that people could do in general to to change this?
46:24
Or is it a generational thing?
46:25
I'm not sure.
46:26
I think partly in Hong Kong is a generational thing.
46:30
If you look at now the CEOs of like property companies, they all grew up with multiple wives or different.
46:40
They did? They did.
46:42
You didn't know? Which ones?
46:43
Do you want to name them?
46:44
I think we should name all the property companies with guys with multiple wives.
46:47
They have just a different mindset.
46:49
Do you know the multiple wives? Who are these wives?
46:50
I'd like some names.
46:52
You'll get them when they die.
46:54
And there's like a lot of inheritance, right?
46:56
It's all over the news.
46:57
That's when it comes out.
46:59
But it was very normal for them and very normal for a female to be like the second, third wife or whatever, just to be home and like have kids.
47:09
That's it. Right.
47:10
But while I see now the new generation, I'm more like, OK, so I want to be also a business owner or I want to be like get more senior up.
47:20
I feel like it's changing.
47:22
Yeah. So the new generation are more open to this.
47:25
But in the end, for me, it feels like we can only educate a new generation by telling like the new boys and girls coming up.
47:34
It's equal for everyone.
47:35
There's no point in changing the old guard, right?
47:38
Focus on the future.
47:39
Well, and I think you're a great case study example.
47:43
I hope people watch this, see you, all the great things you do.
47:47
And there's maybe younger people who want to start a business or don't know how to start a business or interested in whisky.
47:52
And they say, hey, here's someone who's done it.
47:55
Right.
47:55
Like there's a there's a path for people to follow.
47:58
There's a way. I hope I'm an inspiration for people.
48:00
Well, here's to that. Cheers.
48:02
You absolutely are.
48:03
Oh, you're already next to the next whisky.
48:04
I'm on to the next one. Yeah.
48:05
Don't take your time.
48:13
We're on Glen Keith.
48:16
This is our fifth whisky, 32 year old, 1993.
48:20
So this one steps up a bit in ABV.
48:22
We're at 50, almost three percent.
48:25
Again, for me, though, we're going back into like the heart of Speyside, like if you like Macallan and anything that starts with the Glen, all of the Glen. Macallan doesn't start with Glen.
48:37
Macallan plus all the Glens.
48:42
Big Mac plus all the Glens.
48:44
Then I think if you're in that range, then Glen Keith is for me in that wheelhouse, like it's that Sherried style.
48:55
Classic, you know, Sherry Speyside whisky.
49:00
And I love the finish on this.
49:01
Do you have a pipette? Sorry.
49:03
Yes, we'll have to get we'll have to get a pipette.
49:05
Yes, we'll get you some water and pipette so we can add.
49:08
It is pretty high.
49:09
I think it might need a little water to open it up.
49:13
It definitely opens up a bit more.
49:14
So let's chat a bit more about before.
49:17
We've talked a lot about whisky and your time in whisky. Tell me about the investment banking you did.
49:21
That was London. Is that what you did?
49:23
That was like from Chinese restaurant to investment banking to starting your own whisky. Am I getting the timeline right? Sort of.
49:31
I studied also. No, you didn't. Don't lie.
49:35
No, I was in uni in Rotterdam.
49:38
I studied econometrics.
49:40
So that's economics and mathematics together.
49:42
You're telling me you're smarter than me.
49:44
I just know some numbers.
49:46
At my first job, I moved to London.
49:49
I was in fixed income sales at Goldman Sachs and then Stockton Association.
49:55
So looking back at those years, what do you take out of that?
49:58
This was your 20s, I assume.
50:00
Like, what do you take out of that experience that you like, I guess, put into who you are today, like, yeah, what, what was that like?
50:07
Cause I think there's a lot of people who are in those kinds of, let's say, uh, not entry level necessarily, but like first jobs you're, you're working, I assume.
50:15
I, I, I was very lucky to never work in a big company so far.
50:19
I've never worked in a big company, but what was that experience like, uh, for you at that time in your life?
50:26
Um, so as an analyst, when you start, um, it's a lot of groundwork.
50:31
You, you, the good thing is because at that time investment banking was very, very different than now.
50:37
The investment banking job was only in London.
50:39
So we all had to move from like, what we say, continental Europe to London.
50:43
So we start out in a class, people from Holland, from Italy, from anywhere, all started in the same class.
50:50
So you actually sort of start in second uni group of people that you have a friend.
50:55
Especially in a city like London, everyone's kind of young together.
50:59
You have that culture, right?
51:01
Yes.
51:01
And that's very, very nice community to be in.
51:04
Um, because everyone is the same boat.
51:05
You just moved away.
51:06
It's your first time in a foreign country.
51:09
You have to work hard.
51:10
It's a hardworking business at that time.
51:12
Um, but you can also party a lot with friends together.
51:17
There's no family that you need to go to see in a, in a weekend, uh, these kinds of things.
51:22
So it's, it's a very nice way to start as a first job.
51:25
And are you still, would you say quite connected to financial markets?
51:29
And like, is that because of that, your time there?
51:32
Is that like, cause it's a world you understand, right?
51:35
Like, is that something you've kept up in a way or connected to?
51:37
Yeah, I do like obviously read the news and everything.
51:40
Um, but it's, it's trading.
51:42
Are you doing like managing your own investments?
51:45
Do you do any of that?
51:45
I do a little bit of that.
51:46
And, uh, mainly look at FX now, because obviously in a bit, in our business, we purchase in Sterling or any country where you are and we're receiving in, uh, yeah.
51:58
But for me, the work experience is, is more the journey that it shapes the way you're thinking.
52:05
So at Goldman's, when I started, uh, it was very important to have a good reputation.
52:10
It was always hammered into all of us.
52:12
Reputation takes years to build.
52:14
It just take one split second to ruin.
52:17
That's true.
52:17
And it's true for everything.
52:19
So even if my business, I'm a little bit careful, maybe sometimes a bit conservative, because for me, reputation is very important.
52:26
And that was because of my work experience at Goldman's.
52:30
I agree with that.
52:30
I think you have to deliver a good product and you want to, you want to, if you, especially in your business where you're bottling something, you don't want to bottle something if you don't stand behind it.
52:38
Right.
52:38
And I think same in our business.
52:40
Like I will never provide a cast sample that I think is bad quality.
52:44
It doesn't have to be the cast sample that I love necessarily, because people have different tastes, different profiles.
52:50
I think that part is fine.
52:51
But I think quality is, is, is not as subjective, I guess, as taste preference.
52:57
Taste preference is subjective.
52:59
Quality is less subjective.
53:01
Yeah, I agree.
53:02
So one of the examples I give in, uh, in events are like, there are Michelin star restaurants that maybe only do spicy food, but if you don't like spicy food, it doesn't mean that restaurant is not good.
53:13
It's just, it's not your flavor or your preference.
53:15
Yeah.
53:15
So you need to distinguish that part.
53:18
So quality versus what you prefer.
53:21
Prefer.
53:21
I agree with that.
53:30
Speaking of preference, we're going to try our sixth whisky here.
53:32
We're moving into a Laphroaig 1990, 34 year old Laphroaig, which is, I think quite rare, um, we're at 46% ABV.
53:43
We're back into bourbon cask, obviously for Laphroaig.
53:47
And so I'm not a big Petey whisky guy.
53:52
It's just not, not my style, but this already on the nose.
53:55
I love, like, I like, I like that campfire.
53:59
I like, and it's much softer than obviously if people think about Laphroaig 10, that's like very medicinal.
54:04
So the age has definitely brought down the phenols, which is basically bringing down the Petey, the smokiness.
54:10
It's still there, but it's more, I would say in the background.
54:14
Yeah.
54:14
It's more supportive than like the main character.
54:17
Yeah.
54:18
And it's kind of dealing this like really nice complexity for me.
54:22
Like this is.
54:23
And the fruitiness is coming on the back after.
54:25
See, that's why I like this kind of Petey style because for me, otherwise the Petey is like a slap to the face.
54:30
Like all I get is the Pete.
54:32
I get how people love that, but then I don't get a lot of other characteristic.
54:36
Here, the Pete has died down to a point where it's still there, it's still prominent, but then as you were saying, there's a lot of other characteristics to it that kind of like teeter it out.
54:46
Right.
54:47
So, so how often do you actually drink whisky?
54:50
Everyone thinks that, uh, because we work in the whisky industry, literally, this is what we sit around doing all day and I wish it was, uh, and it's been a pleasure.
55:00
to get to do this with you, but as always, but how often are you actually drinking whisky, would you say?
55:07
On average, maybe two, three times a week or something.
55:09
Mostly events or just drinking?
55:11
If I have events, there are weeks and months that I've been drinking every day almost.
55:16
It's just because if you host a tasting, you're not drinking a lot, but you still have to taste it.
55:21
Because for me, tasting in different environments give me different flavors, even if it's the same whisky.
55:27
You mean like different like rooms temperatures?
55:30
What do you mean?
55:31
So for example, if you have the air con really cold, so it's much cooler, my perception of a certain whisky can be different from if it's like no air conditioning, it's very hot and humid.
55:43
I mean, if it's hot and humid, you just feel terrible and you don't wanna be drinking whisky at all.
55:48
I mean, we've got the ACs going here because the lights are on us and we're drinking whisky and all of that, so you need that.
55:55
Of course you need it, but sometimes if you do a cigar and whisky tasting, you're standing outside.
56:00
Are you a cigar?
56:01
Do you just smoke cigars?
56:02
Oh, once in a while, yeah.
56:03
Really?
56:04
Okay, yeah.
56:05
I like pairing things.
56:06
You do?
56:07
Yeah, I like pairing whisky with food, with cigars, chocolate, anything.
56:12
And do you think there is actually a pairing or it's more you're just experiment?
56:17
It's experience together.
56:18
It's just, I mean, like this, I'm happy to drink six really, really good whisky as well, but sometimes if you're just chilling out with friends, you're not going to drink in this way.
56:30
Like, okay, what do you get from whisky one?
56:32
No, we're very lucky, I think, to be able to kind of do this on a Friday evening.
56:37
It's good to have a pairing with a cigar or just like something to nibble.
56:42
And then you're in the gym every day after that.
56:45
Like, this is the part I'm not understanding.
56:46
I'm with you with the let's have a cigar, let's have a whisky, let's have two whiskies, but like, what does it take to have that discipline?
56:55
Or is it easy for you?
56:56
Hey, next morning I'm up, I'm doing the gym or CrossFit or whatever you do.
57:01
Like, is that always a boom I'm there?
57:04
I think for me, the gym is like my Zen place.
57:07
This is where I actually switch off.
57:09
So I actually don't have my phone on then.
57:11
No music, no nothing.
57:13
Oh, I'll do a class.
57:14
So I will actually follow what the instructor asked me to do.
57:18
But then it's like, just tune out of business, tune out of whisky, tune out of anything.
57:24
It's my one hour of Zen time.
57:26
It's important for your mental, I think, state to have something like that.
57:31
Usually physically active, where like I used to play tennis for a long time and I don't anymore.
57:36
But like, I love that, what you're saying, because I would focus on trying to hit the ball to my trainer, right?
57:41
I wasn't playing tennis with like friends.
57:43
I never played tennis with my friends, almost never.
57:45
I only played tennis against someone who was like, singing, yeah, who was like, cause they're hitting it.
57:51
And every time I would level up just a little bit, he would remind me how much better he is just to kind of put me back.
57:57
And all I would focus on was like, I got to get this ball over that net in this way, right?
58:02
And if you can focus on that, you can't think about anything else.
58:05
You have to think about your footwork, where you are.
58:07
Yeah, same and same for me in the gym.
58:09
Like today I had to do a lot of snatches.
58:12
I had a 15 kg dumbbell, so I cannot not focus on that.
58:16
Otherwise it will fall on you and it will get injured.
58:19
But the going out, the journey, whatever, never affects your motivation in the morning.
58:23
Like you never wake up and be like, fuck, I don't want to do this class today.
58:27
No, no, no, I go to gym in the lunchtime.
58:29
So I have like my work in the morning and then I'll go in lunchtime.
58:32
So that's a good tip.
58:33
Maybe it's about time of day.
58:35
And this is something you said that started kind of towards the end of COVID, like this more focus, would you say?
58:41
Yeah, so for me, it's more a mental thing.
58:44
So everyone has a different way to unwind.
58:47
I will not say like, if you like gym, of course, please go to the gym.
58:50
But if you like to read or any way you can unwind and switch off, just do it one hour for yourself.
58:57
It's really good for your mental health.
58:59
And for me, it's just, I like a particular gym and also in the middle of the day.
59:03
I'm very productive during the morning.
59:05
So I'm awake by seven, 6.37.
59:09
I'm in office by 8.30 latest.
59:11
And then I work four hours, go to gym for one and a half hour come back, I'm fresh again and I can do another four hours.
59:18
And I work about like productiveness 12 hours in eight hours.
59:22
I love it.
59:23
And I can go out for drinking and seeing friends in the evening.
59:26
Well, and thank you for spending that almost last hour or so with us.
59:29
I think that was really fun.
59:31
I really appreciate it.
59:32
Tradition on the show and cheers, by the way, whatever.
59:35
What was your favorite?
59:36
If you had to name a favorite, if you, if I had to put you to.
59:42
I really enjoyed the Okuntoshian and the Glen Keith actually.
59:45
Ah, wonderful.
59:47
Okay, well, great.
59:48
Well, tradition on the show, we actually need to get a glass and a pen.
59:56
Hey guys, Rakesh here, the whisky chief.
59:58
Firstly, thanks.
1:00:00
for watching this episode. It really means a lot to us. If you can, like and subscribe below. It just really helps us to keep bringing you the best whiskies in the world. So long and I'll talk to you soon.