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Shelley Shannon: The Anti-Abortion Bomber | Oregon True Crime · PNW Haunts & Homicides

0:00
Before long, the summer of mercy was thrust upon the public.
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Whether they'd been involved or even aware of the national conversation around abortion
0:15
or not.
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In 1991, Wichita Police arrested potentially up to 3,000 protesters, thousands of anti-abortion
0:26
activists gathered for what began as a week-long protest that seemingly never lost
0:32
steam. Spanning several more.
0:58
PNW Haunts and Homicides where we talk about tru crime, the paranorml, and all things creepy in the Pacific Northwest. We do a tarot reading at the end of every episode for a little bit of deeper insight into our
1:03
topic for the week, so make sure you stick around if you're into that.
1:07
It's a nice little palette cleanser at the end of a true crime or a scary story.
1:12
Yeah, I think we're gonna need it this week.
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Okay.
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Yeah.
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Before we get started today, we are going to switch things up.
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We're gonna do a Patreon shout out right at the top.
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Who are we shouting out today?
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Crystal with a K.
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Oh my God, we have always said we love crystals.
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We do love crystals.
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And now we have our very own Krystal person.
1:42
Oh my God, she's cracking herself up over here.
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Yes, Krystal actually joined as an annual Patreon member.
1:53
So literally is stuck with us for a year.
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I know.
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Can you imagine?
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Oh, Krystal person.
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We are gonna have so much fun.
2:06
Yeah.
2:07
We're super excited to have you.
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Thanks for joining us.
2:11
And I think the annual membership thing is kind of cool because you get a discount off
2:16
the monthly tier rate.
2:19
So I think so too.
2:21
No, you definitely do.
2:23
I think that's cool.
2:24
Yeah, I think it's cool too.
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That's where it's going without that.
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I don't know the details.
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I'm assuming you know the details of Patreon because I don't keep track.
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So just to clarify, welcome Krystal.
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We think the annual membership is really cool.
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And I think that's that.
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We also have a book review for Patreon on December 2nd.
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Yes.
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Saturday, December 2nd.
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What time is it?
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2pm, 12/2 at 2pm.
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Pacific, standard time.
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Obviously.
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Because that's where we are.
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That's where we are.
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PNW baby.
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Our book review and discussion is going to be centered on bright young women, a novel by
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Jessica Knoll.
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And it has a, I don't know.
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Can I say it?
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Or am I going to give too much away?
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I don't know.
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It has a real hashtag never Bundy vibe to it.
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Yeah, definitely.
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And I think we've talked about it before.
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Okay.
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In one of the last episodes.
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Jessica Knoll is also the author of the book "Luckiest Girl Alive," which was of course then
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turned into a movie, which is one of my favorites of all time.
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Because I am the creepiest of creepy people.
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So.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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She creepier than me.
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I don't know about that.
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Just creepy in different ways.
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Yeah.
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Well, should we say about that?
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Should we stop stalling and get to your topic here?
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I guess.
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All right.
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Born March 31st of 1956 to teenage parents and conceived out of wedlock, Shelley came
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from humble beginnings in Beaver Dam, Wisconsin.
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Ooh, Wisconsin.
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Yeah.
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Oh, Beaver Dam too.
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Beaver Dam.
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That kind of relates to Oregon.
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Yeah.
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Yep.
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Beaver State, is that what we are?
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I think so, yeah.
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In 1974, she would become a young teenage mother herself when she gave birth to her first
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child, a daughter.
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She met David Shannon soon after, and within about a year, the couple had a child together,
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a son.
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The family of four moved all over the West Coast before eventually settling in
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Grants Pass, Oregon in 1988.
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Wow.
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That's kind of a random place to land after traveling all over the West Coast.
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Yeah.
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I think so.
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It's kind of like out there.
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It is.
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It's a little rural.
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Definitely.
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Rural juror.
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Shelley was primarily a stay-at-home mother during this time, though leading up to the dramatic
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events that made her infamous, Shelley had not been raised in the church or actively sought
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out religion by her own account.
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As an adult, she would begin regularly attending church services and women's Bible study classes.
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That sounds really wholesome.
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I have a feeling it's not going to stay that way.
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Yeah.
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When living in Grand Pass, Shelley would become well acquainted, not just with religion,
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but with one of the great crusades of right-wing radical religious groups, anti-abortion activism.
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Okay.
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Yeah.
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I don't know how much you know about this.
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Probably not a lot.
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Things tend to make me angry beyond the point of comprehension.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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I try to stay away from things.
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Yeah.
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You're going to learn a lot now.
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And then I think probably based on that, you'll go ahead and block it out again.
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Okay.
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We'll try.
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In 1988, she began getting involved with the National Right to Life Committee.
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Partially the oldest and largest of anti-abortion groups in the United States.
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From there, she was quickly and completely indoctrinated by the arguably even more radical
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operation rescue.
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An extremist anti-abortion group established in the state of California.
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Wow.
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California.
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I know.
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Kind of surprising.
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Yeah.
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The letter group focuses on more direct and oftentimes violent action, rather than focusing
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on lobbying as is typically the tact that the National Right to Life Committee has at
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least historically taken.
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It's interesting that they think they want to save lives and then they get violent.
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How does that make sense?
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Make it make sense.
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Because they're infamous call to action states, if you believe abortion is murder, act like
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it's murder.
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What does that mean?
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How do you reason with?
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Okay.
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The organization's headquarters is actually now located in Kansas in what was once an abortion
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clinic that eventually shuttered due to repeated instances of harassment, threats, and violence.
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By these people?
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I would assume at least in part by them may have involved other people and other organizations,
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but isn't that lovely?
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Yeah.
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Interesting.
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Shelly quickly became entrenched in protests.
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And then less than a year, she racked up dozens of hours worth of community service hours
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in addition to fines, all before eventually being sentenced to four weeks jail time as a
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result of multiple arrests.
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Okay.
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So she was so extreme.
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The law was getting involved.
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Correct.
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Got it.
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Yeah.
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Go big or go home.
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And I'm not going home.
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Wow.
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I'm going to jail.
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Yeah.
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Well, maybe that is home.
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In 1989, she broadened her horizons or more accurately her arrest record by traveling to
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additional out of state protests leading to arrests in both Atlanta and Seattle.
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For long, her teenage daughter, Angela, was also not only attending the protests alongside
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her mother, but also facing arrest at her side.
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Oh, what a role model.
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It makes me so unspeakably angry when children are dragged into the aspects of somebody else's
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crime. And in this case, because she's been indoctrinated and brainwashed.
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I hate it.
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I hate it.
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Poor kiddo.
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Before long, the summer of mercy was thrust upon the public, whether they'd been involved
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or even aware of the national conversation around abortion or not.
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In 1991, which a top police arrested hundreds actually scratched that.
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The numbers reported very depending on the source between 1500 and upwards of 2500.
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Some reports even verging on close to 3,000.
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What?
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3,000 protesters.
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They...
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Let me say that again.
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In 1991, which a top police arrested potentially up to 3,000 protesters in July and August.
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That summer.
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Wow.
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Thousands of anti-abortion activists gathered for what began as a week-long protest that seemingly
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never lost steam, spanning several more.
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So it was supposed to be a week, but it kept going.
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Yep.
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They were just having the time of their lives.
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Sounds like.
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Yeah.
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I'm sure at this point, the topic became much more difficult to ignore or to feign ignorance
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of.
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So while it's been a national conversation, pretty much...
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I feel like has it not just constantly been in the ether in this country?
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Ever since, like, grade school I swear.
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I've been hearing about abortion.
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It's been like a topic of conversation all of my life.
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Yeah.
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Well, in Roe v. Wade, the passage in the 70s, like, obviously people were having this conversation
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prior to that.
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So I mean, yeah.
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It spans multiple decades prior to our human existence.
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Just, you know.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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It's crazy.
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I just...
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I can't.
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Now enter Dr. George Tiller of Wichita, Kansas.
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Born 1941, he was a flight surgeon after attending medical school in the 1960s, when he unexpectedly
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returned home to tend to his father's medical practice.
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He was asked whether he'd continue performing abortions as his father had.
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In case you're not totally sure in this moment, this is still very much a true crime podcast.
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You guys, I promise.
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I believe you.
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All of this sounds like crime to me.
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Yeah.
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It is.
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It's, like, inarguably.
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But I would nerd out really hard on a lot of unusual topics.
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Happily, I learned while researching.
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But I digress, and I'm not the only one who occasionally sees their plans diverted.
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In the family practice, he would deviate from his own plans for his medical practice career.
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Dr. George Tiller performed post-viability abortions.
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That word is kind of loaded right now.
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Only for several recent decades, like we were just saying.
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So I'll state, this was not without significant conditions.
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We are talking about serious birth defects of the fetus, or serious irreparable bodily
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harm to the pregnant person.
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Oh, and by the way, you still needed two independent providers to sign off on your behalf for
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the latter scenario.
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Wow.
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Okay, two.
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Okay.
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Still, for some reason, he became a significant target for anti-abortion extremist groups, and
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their various versions of violence and protests.
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But why would someone suddenly change course to practice medicine in a decidedly different
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field than originally intended, and in a very polarized part of the country, where many
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religious or conservative people, local and otherwise, would not take kindly to this work?
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Cassie's got nothing.
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She's like, why?
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I don't know.
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I don't know.
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Just a month before he planned to start a dermatology residency program in 1970, Dr. Tiller
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's father, mother, sister, and brother-in-law were all killed in a tragic accident.
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Oh, my God.
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As he was poised to take a huge step forward in his professional medical career, he was struck
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by unimaginable tragedy, but also an impossible task.
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As his sister's wishes were for him to take care of her son in the unlikely event of her
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death.
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Oh, wow.
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Let the record state that whether she's listening or not, I want my friend Stephanie to know how
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seriously this role would be undertaken in my case, which is a non-custodial scenario.
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But I can't even imagine.
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Like I'm a God-parent, like in the warm, fuzzy feeling way.
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I can't imagine the pressure.
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I know, just like gaining a whole child.
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Yeah.
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That's a lot.
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And then like losing all of that family on top of it.
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Oh my God.
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That's a lot.
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You're grieving the loss of basically your entire family.
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And suddenly thrown into, oh, by the way, he just had a kid.
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That kid is also grieving.
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Yeah.
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Oh, wow.
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He was really, really young.
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He probably was not ultimately old enough to remember any of the family that passed.
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Oh, I see.
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I think he was, I want to say, around 14 months old.
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He was under age two, as I recall.
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So that's still going to be very traumatic for--
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Of course.
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--even that young of a child who is--
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Absolutely.
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--raised with people and all of a sudden they're gone and they don't understand why.
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Yeah.
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Oh, that's so sad.
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Yeah.
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Now, listen.
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Under different circumstances, we'd all be giving Dr. Tiller a skeptical raise of the
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eyebrow.
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Because I mean, come on.
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What are the chances?
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It's pretty unusual for one's damn near entire family to be taken out in one fell swoop.
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Unless it's intentional, right?
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But sadly, Dr. Tiller's story is one of sorrow and unrelentingly horrific bad luck.
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In the midst of this unexpected and unimaginable loss, George returned to his hometown to tend
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to his father's practice of roughly three decades.
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Can you imagine being expected to practice medicine?
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Just period.
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Full stop.
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Under these circumstances?
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No.
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No.
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Hashtag.
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Not a doctor.
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Certainly don't want to be a doctor in that scenario.
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Yeah.
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What?
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I feel like you need all of your brains to be at attention.
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Yeah.
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Wow.
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Which I'm sure having something to focus on, like his work was probably, that was probably
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a really healthy way for him to try to channel a lot of, you know, his attention and his time,
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but my God.
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That makes sense, yeah.
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His father had been a general healthcare provider to many living in the mid-sized city
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of Wichita.
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That he had also offered safe abortion surfaces to his patients that required it.
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Though it was reluctantly so, after the local community suffered a terrible tragedy, reportedly
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dating back to the 1940s.
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He had refused an abortion to a woman who already had two children, the second having been very
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recently born.
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When he refused, she found someone outside the medical profession willing to help her.
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Unfortunately, complications from that procedure led to her death.
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Oh, that is so scary and so sad.
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It is.
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You don't have any other option.
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And though abortions had been performed at the clinic previously, it was in 1973, following
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the Roe v. Wade decision that the picketing began.
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But as violence often does, particularly when driven by unbending religious extremism,
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it only escalated from there.
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Still, it wasn't until 1983 that the clinic that Dr. Teller had taken over from his father
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was fire bombed.
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Oh my God, what?
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Shelley was one of many that were arrested multiple times during that period.
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Fire bombed?
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I'm like stuck on that.
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They fire bombed it.
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That's violent as fuck.
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It is.
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If you're stuck on it, and I was when I read it, and I can't even tell you the number of,
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and just the array of rabbit holes that I started to fall down about fire bombing.
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I don't know what that means.
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Is it a literal fire bomb?
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Literally have that.
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That's because I just think that especially in this context, it's really important to understand
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it.
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Okay.
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I'm thinking a literal fire bomb.
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Yeah.
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A bomb of fire.
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Fire bombing is pretty much what it sounds like if you're unfamiliar, but I feel the need
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to explain this gorilla tactic just a little bit because within the definition are some
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pretty intense implications.
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From Wikipedia, fire bombing is a bombing technique designed to damage a target, generally
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an urban area through the use of fire caused by incendiary devices rather than from the
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blast effect of large bombs.
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In popular usage, any act in which an incendiary device is used to initiate a fire is often described
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as fire bombing.
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If a fire catches, it could spread.
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Being in adjacent buildings that would have been largely unaffected by a high explosive
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bomb.
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This is a more effective use of the payload that a bomber could carry.
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Wow.
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So it does more damage than an actual big bomb.
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Yeah.
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In some cases.
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I mean, not obviously like not a nuke, but like.
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Right.
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And the crazy thing about it and this is actually a conversation that kind of spun out from trying
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to wrap my head around this topic is that the way that we bomb in the modern era, it's
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very violent.
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I mean, that's still indisputable, but it's very precise.
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So you can literally land a device on the engine block of a car and take out the front half
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of a vehicle from miles away.
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You're nowhere near that entire fire or not fire incident.
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It's mind blowing, but in this instance, think Molotov cocktail here, kids, it's guerrilla
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warfare with something as simple as gasoline.
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That's so scary because literally anyone can do it and they are obviously.
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And that sentiment, you're a witch.
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I know.
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Because it's.
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I can't even believe it.
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It gets so much scarier for that specific reason.
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And you'll see why I was flabbergasted.
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These wartime tactics brought to the home front in small cities and towns all over America
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in the name of a cause that in this case, I particularly cannot wrap my head around.
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You are fighting for the birth of something that in some sad cases amounts to little more
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than a cluster of cells that cannot lead to a live birth.
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These are instances where these are children that will, in many cases, never be because of
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the nature of the types of abortion services that he offered.
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I can't wrap my head around how you hate someone that much if you understand those facts.
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I just.
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I don't know.
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I don't want to sound callous because fertility and the value of human life are, of course,
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incredibly emotionally charged topics.
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But how do you justify the level of violence that fire bombing constitutes against another
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living, breathing human being in these cases?
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We're not talking about people that are, in any way, casually having an abortion performed.
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Everyone involved at this stage has been through enough.
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How do you justify harassing someone who is already uniquely traumatized outside of a clinic
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where they are trying to seek care for a medical issue that could already have been one of the
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most devastating and painful experiences of their own as well as of their family's lives?
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Most of a pregnancy or experiencing one that is no longer medically viable is heartbreaking
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enough.
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And something that there's entirely too much shame around to this day.
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It's something that can happen spontaneously, reportedly up to 26% of the time, and oftentimes
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before the pregnancy is even realized by the host.
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And I say, "host intentionally," not to sound cold, but because a fetus like any guest
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can overstay their welcome.
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That's a good way to put it.
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If you put the life of your host at risk under any other circumstance, that would be deemed
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unacceptable.
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That's true.
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Now, obviously there were some situations where the abortions performed were because of
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very serious birth defects and things like that.
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And certainly for some people, that's an ethical issue or debate.
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And I just can't believe we're having this conversation still in this country.
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But our whole lives.
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But it happens to more women than we care to think or to talk about.
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Laws like the one Texas attempted to stand up, victimize women who experience incredibly
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normal, but deeply traumatizing things like a miscarriage or an ectopic pregnancy.
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And people like Shelley are part of the reason why.
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As a woman socialized in this country, I can say that it's nearly impossible not to feel
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a sense of loss or shame, and by no fault of your own, other than being a human that participates
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in a biological process.
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As much as I would fight for a woman's right not to have a child, I would fight to my dying
27:51
breath to protect another mother's child.
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But thankfully, we're not here to talk about either me or motherhood.
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We're here to talk about Shelley and some other duchess that she hangs out with.
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It was after her multiple arrests during the summer of mercy in Wichita that Shelley
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claimed she felt what the army of God describes as a call to forceful action.
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Okay.
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Red flag.
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Literally makes no sense.
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Like, I just, like, do you not, the combination of words?
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Do you not hear your soul?
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Yeah.
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No, they don't.
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No, no.
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If you're hearing alarm bells, you are correct.
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In 1992, Shelley set fire to the Catalina Medical Center in Ashland, one of the only abortion
28:54
providers in the area.
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No one was injured, but the provider did reportedly decide to retire after receiving additional
29:02
threats.
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Wow.
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You just, like, changed multiple people's entire lives with violence.
29:10
Congratulations.
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It was a clearly premeditated attack that Shelley later recalled in great detail.
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Being quite emboldened, Shelley published how to destroy a killing center.
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Oh my God.
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Hyphen.
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If you're just an old grandma who can't get a fire started in her fireplace.
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I'm just rapid blinking.
29:38
But you.
29:40
What?
29:41
Published on the army of God website, which featured bizarrely detailed instructions
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for how to proceed should one find themselves similarly motivated in their own local community
29:57
and wishing to avoid prosecution, you know, for by your bombing, a building.
30:08
It's literal terrorism.
30:10
Like, what?
30:11
I'm glad you said that.
30:13
Under God's name, well, I guess that happens.
30:16
I mean, I know that happens.
30:18
It's just like.
30:19
Cassie.
30:20
Hmm.
30:21
Her how to guide remains on the army of God website.
30:26
I didn't pay it a visit, but I can confirm.
30:31
The army of God is a US-based Christian terrorist organization as designated by the US government.
30:41
Words from the US Department of Justice that I would both eagerly and staunchly stand behind.
30:49
How was their website still up?
30:52
Like I understand free speech, but like that's you're literally instructing people on how
30:58
to commit terrorism.
31:00
Yeah, that's fucked up.
31:02
Domestic terrorism.
31:04
Is it on the dark web or is it just on the regular internet?
31:08
It's on the regular internet.
31:09
So I'm like, okay, dark web, whatever.
31:12
There's a bunch of shit on there.
31:13
I don't understand it.
31:15
But yeah.
31:16
I don't want to.
31:18
But this is just something that any person could come across, access.
31:26
So on August 19th of 1993, Dr. Tiller was in his car preparing to drive home at the end
31:35
of his workday at the clinic.
31:38
Shelley lay in wait and fired upon him several times.
31:43
And though he was indeed shot in both arms, he not only survived his injuries, but returned
31:50
to his practice the actual ass next day.
31:54
The next day?
31:56
Wow.
31:58
I cannot even imagine how scary and traumatizing that was to come back the next day.
32:04
Like to go back at all.
32:07
Yeah.
32:08
And while Shelley was really busy being significantly less successful at anything, the next day, good.
32:19
Though Shelley managed to evade arrest in Wichita initially, she was arrested in Oklahoma
32:26
as she was returning her rental car.
32:29
That same year, Shelley's daughter, Angela, was said to have written a death threat to another
32:34
abortion provider in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
32:37
Aww.
32:38
Though it was Shelley that would at least attempt to take credit for the crime.
32:46
Shelley's husband, David, would turn on the news the next day after being instructed
32:52
by a friend, only to find that his wife appeared to be on the news and was being arrested.
32:59
Did he like have any idea about any of this?
33:03
Nope.
33:04
Oh my God.
33:06
Though it couldn't have been easy to tell that it was his wife, since police had wrapped
33:12
her in, I've heard either a towel or in paper towels.
33:19
Depending on the source.
33:21
They wrapped her up to avoid news cameras identifying her.
33:26
Oh, okay.
33:27
I was just like, why?
33:29
I don't get it.
33:30
Yeah, she went.
33:31
She didn't make any sense to me either.
33:33
I was like, what in the actual fuck are you talking about?
33:36
I hope it was paper towels.
33:38
I really do too.
33:39
I hope she was walking out of there looking like bandage man.
33:42
Yeah.
33:43
At the time of her arrest, he had reportedly been completely unaware of her plans.
33:49
He has remarkably condescending quote that would normally infuriate me.
33:56
But for Shelley, all at its light.
34:01
Furthermore, he apparently did not share her radical beliefs.
34:05
That's why I'm going to let it slide.
34:08
That's at least according to comments provided following her crime.
34:12
He basically said, um, I don't know.
34:16
This is Shelley's little hobby.
34:19
I don't partake.
34:21
I'm busy in the garage.
34:24
I'm busy just being a normal ass person.
34:27
Oh my gosh.
34:30
If you don't have any awareness of what your wife is doing and it's something like that's
34:36
that big.
34:38
Yeah.
34:39
I wanted to be fair.
34:42
Any woman can fly halfway across the country and do something completely different than
34:49
what she's telling her husband she's doing.
34:52
Yeah, I guess that's true.
34:55
In Shelley's initial statements, she tried to claim that she had not intended to kill
35:01
Dr. Tiller.
35:02
I was just shooting at him a little bit.
35:04
Yeah.
35:05
But crazy is as crazy does.
35:07
Apparently.
35:08
Because she quickly changed her story.
35:12
This did not go unnoticed through the course of her trial.
35:16
Imagine that.
35:18
The jury deliberated for one hour.
35:22
We're sentencing her to 11 years behind bars.
35:27
Damn.
35:28
One hour is not a lot.
35:30
Nope.
35:31
It's not usually a good thing when the jury comes back quickly.
35:37
I mean, for the defendant.
35:39
Yeah.
35:40
What did she change her story to?
35:43
Oh, just to the actual truth where she is truly evil and thinks that she has
35:52
been called by God to perpetrate unspeakable violence on other people in this world in order
36:02
to prevent any unborn baby from being harmed.
36:08
Was she trying to do the whole insanity thing?
36:12
Because that sounds a thing.
36:13
She does sound insane.
36:16
Not in the legal sense, but Angela was charged for threatening the murder.
36:22
She was the doctor in Wisconsin in 1997 and she was sentenced to 46 months.
36:31
Though Shelley had tried to take the blame for her daughter, Angela's prints were on the
36:36
letter.
36:37
Oh, well, so you can't get away from that, can you?
36:43
No.
36:44
Fingerprints are pretty solid.
36:48
She would later be released in 2001 after completing her sentence.
36:53
Angela.
36:54
Angela.
36:55
Yeah, just clarify.
36:56
How old was she?
36:57
She was born in 1974.
36:59
So right after the passage of Roe v. Wade, just crazy.
37:05
So by 1997, that would make her, what, like, 23?
37:09
Something like that, okay.
37:11
Still too young to be threatening people.
37:13
Oh, yeah.
37:14
There is really not an acceptable age for that.
37:17
No.
37:18
Not a fan.
37:21
But Shelley's legal issues weren't entirely over.
37:26
In 1995, Shelley was sentenced to 20 years for federal crimes connected to various clinic
37:34
bombings.
37:35
Wow.
37:37
She was to serve the 11-year sentence for attempted murder prior to the additional
37:43
sentence of 20 years.
37:45
That's awesome.
37:46
Additionally, she was ordered to pay restitution to some of the clinics impacted by the attacks.
37:54
Damn.
37:55
Yeah.
37:56
And I don't know that they ever really saw any of that money, but it's the principle of
38:03
the thing.
38:04
It really is.
38:05
I agree.
38:06
You have to give your money to the people that you hate the most.
38:09
Yeah.
38:10
People can have a lot of differing opinions and feelings about abortion.
38:17
We don't have to agree on that issue.
38:20
If we don't, then you're wrong, but we don't have to agree.
38:26
But Shelley Shannon is a heinous, violent, terrorist, as is Scott Roder.
38:36
There are no two ways about it, but that's not the end of our story, unfortunately.
38:42
But you could probably guess that since I just introduced another character to this story.
38:48
Yeah.
38:49
Plot twist.
38:50
Spoiler alert, we hate him.
38:53
Okay.
38:54
I figured.
38:55
Sorry.
38:56
I tried to introduce you guys to nicer people, but they just don't commit as many murders.
39:01
Yeah.
39:02
Weird how that happens.
39:04
In May 31st, 2009, at the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Wichita, Dr. Tiller was assassinated
39:14
by Scott Roder.
39:16
He was shot in the head as he was performing service as an usher, just like any other Sunday.
39:23
What?
39:24
So this poor man was literally at church working for the church and was killed.
39:34
By someone in a church.
39:36
Wow.
39:37
By someone motivated.
39:40
By someone who claimed to be religious themselves.
39:45
Claimed to do this as a calling from God.
39:50
Like what if fucking slap in the face to God if you believe in him?
39:54
Like, geez.
39:55
Mm-hmm.
39:56
Scott Roder showed no remorse.
40:01
In his case, the jury was equally decisive.
40:05
He was convicted, then sentenced to life in prison.
40:10
He will not be eligible for parole until he has served 25 years.
40:15
Shelly was released in 2018 after serving 25 of the 31 years to which she was sentenced.
40:26
Not enough.
40:27
No.
40:28
Though she was released with the stipulation of a three-year monitored release, she has
40:34
continued to show no remorse for her actions.
40:39
She has also reportedly kept in touch with army of God members and other extremists through
40:46
both of her sentences.
40:49
The American Jewish Congress stated in a press release that Tiller's murder, quote,
40:57
"Exemplifies criminal andarchy, not legitimate protest."
41:03
Dr. Tiller's murder was not just a terrible crime against an individual.
41:10
It was also a crime against our democracy.
41:14
Murder is not a debating technique.
41:17
It is never and must never be an accepted way of advancing a point of view.
41:25
The president of the National Council of Jewish Women, Nancy Ratzin, stated,
41:32
"Dr. Tiller devoted his life to ensuring that women did indeed have choices, when confronted
41:40
with an unintended or untenable pregnancy.
41:46
His murder, his assassination, is intended to terrorize not only all involved with providing
41:54
abortions, but anyone even remotely associated with abortion rights."
42:01
It's really scary.
42:03
Years later, clinic staff that have relocated and begun working elsewhere have continued
42:12
to be harassed because they are known to have worked with Dr. Tiller and people that are
42:22
members of Army of God or other anti-abortion groups.
42:28
Track them down.
42:30
Like how do you think that that's going to get people on your side?
42:35
You can't possibly believe that that is a means to any reasonable end.
42:42
And yet, somehow they do.
42:44
I'm going to tell you the year that this article was published.
42:51
In August of this year, a 20-year-old man ostensibly seeking a job at a Kansas abortion clinic
43:00
was arrested after he told clinic staff his backpack contained an explosive device and knives,
43:10
according to Wichita Police.
43:12
Wow, 2015.
43:16
The explosive device was several fireworks that the suspect put together, according to authorities.
43:24
The incident occurred at South Wind Women's Center, which is in the same facility that Tiller
43:31
once occupied.
43:34
Julie Berkhardt, who used to work for Tiller, now runs a foundation that opened South Wind.
43:42
In August, she spoke about how his killing prompted the clinic to increase security.
43:49
She also spoke of the fear she lives with and said the August incident could have been much
43:55
worse than a man with some fireworks.
44:00
She said, quote, "I'm very concerned that someone would come in the building with weapons.
44:07
He was carrying knives and explosives.
44:10
This really illustrates to me that the security protocols that we have in place work."
44:17
Thank goodness.
44:19
So they caught him at the security?
44:22
Or yes, security identified that.
44:25
And on the flip side, a little bit of commentary from well the flip side.
44:32
The Reverend Donald Spitz, real name.
44:37
An anti-abortion activist who stayed in contact with Shannon.
44:42
Shelly Shannon said abortion rights activists should not be worried about Shannon's release.
44:50
I don't think she'll be doing anything violent.
44:53
Okay.
44:55
He is the leader of pro-life Virginia and sponsor of the Army of God website.
45:02
He said, "Of course, no one knows, but I'd be very surprised."
45:08
I do not trust his opinion.
45:10
Nope.
45:11
Don't worry.
45:12
She's fine.
45:13
She's fine.
45:14
She's not going to do anything.
45:15
No.
45:16
She probably won't do anything because she's already published her manifesto for violence.
45:22
She's doing.
45:23
Yeah.
45:25
He said he talked to Shannon and described her as upbeat about her release, but said he
45:32
didn't know Shannon's plans.
45:34
I'm sure she was upbeat about her release, but I don't believe for a second that you don't
45:38
know her plans.
45:41
Yeah.
45:42
Why are you talking then?
45:46
How can you be so sure that she's not going to be doing anything violent, but also you
45:51
don't know what any of her plans are?
45:53
And why are you talking about plans?
45:55
Like, if you're saying the word plans, it makes me think there's a plan.
46:00
You know, stands to reason.
46:03
Yeah.
46:04
Because normally, if it was me visiting you in prison and you were getting out, I would be
46:07
so Caitlin, what are your plans for like getting a job?
46:11
Like, where are you going to live?
46:14
You would know her plans in that regard, but you just don't know any plans.
46:19
You don't know anything about any plans.
46:21
Okay.
46:22
Sounds super believable.
46:25
And not at all anything to be concerned about.
46:30
Obviously, there's been a little bit of time that has passed and doesn't seem like there
46:37
has been anything violent that has occurred at least at Shelley's hands.
46:44
But you know, Shelley really doesn't have to create any of the chaos or violence with her
46:53
own hands anymore.
46:58
If you visit justice.gov, I've included the specific link in our pace bin.
47:05
Hopefully, it'll actually allow me to publish it where there are numerous recent violent
47:16
encounters that are summarized cases of violence and other various types of attacks, whether,
47:27
you know, verbal, whatever that may be against reproductive healthcare providers and their
47:35
staff.
47:37
Don't worry.
47:38
Right up at the top, there are several from 2023.
47:41
No, I don't want any.
47:44
Yeah.
47:45
I'm sure again, you don't have to agree that they are fighting a senseless battle at all.
47:54
I know there are plenty of people that don't agree, but surely most people can understand.
48:05
They can see that multiple assassination attempts and one of which, not an attempt, this was successful.
48:18
He was murdered in a goddamn church.
48:24
Surely we can agree that that is wrong.
48:26
Just like any violence is why you don't need to do that.
48:32
I just, there are official ways that you can go about getting your laws and whatever the
48:37
fuck you want, voted on.
48:40
Like you said, it's like a threat to democracy.
48:43
It really is.
48:44
One of the most upsetting things about researching this was realizing how people that were involved
48:52
in these protests and specifically a lot of the non-violent tactics that were utilized.
49:04
It was things like shutting down the freeways or they used a lot of non-violent tactics that
49:13
Black Lives Matter protest they've been condemned for.
49:18
Yeah, well of course.
49:20
Yeah.
49:21
The completely other thing that they're fighting for that they don't agree with.
49:26
Right.
49:27
That's irrational.
49:30
When I realized that I was like, and it goes back further than that.
49:34
It wasn't the Karen's outside plan parenthood that thought of the sitting in the middle of
49:41
the freeway or all of these various non-violent protest strategies.
49:48
It goes back to the civil rights movement.
49:51
Yeah.
49:52
But it was so interesting to me to think about how different the languages in those conversations.
50:01
The headline is that everyone fucking sucks.
50:07
Not everyone.
50:08
A lot of people.
50:10
A lot of people.
50:11
Yeah.
50:12
I don't know Cassie.
50:13
Not everyone sucks.
50:14
But a lot of people do.
50:17
You know what doesn't suck?
50:19
What?
50:20
Well, tarot doesn't suck to us.
50:24
My God.
50:26
Nobody better write us an email saying tarot sucks.
50:29
If it sucks, you know, there's an off button.
50:33
Yeah.
50:34
So suck it and you suck it.
50:37
And if you're pushing the off button, that means you push the on button, which means you
50:40
gave us a download.
50:41
Thank you.
50:42
Thank you.
50:44
So we also are going to have a little Patreon bonus to accompany this episode because
50:49
something really frickin bizarre happened to us last night.
50:53
Yeah.
50:55
So I was texting Caitlin about this topic I was working on and it was a topic that you're
51:00
not supposed to talk about.
51:02
It's not the main one.
51:03
Everyone knows it's a different one.
51:05
Imagine that.
51:06
Yeah.
51:07
So I texted her and I was like, "Haha, I'm working on this topic that you're not supposed
51:10
to talk about.
51:11
Hope I don't have any technological problems."
51:15
And like three minutes later.
51:19
It just crashes and is like, you know, the error message.
51:24
Honestly, it's unreal.
51:28
And then it happens again.
51:30
Every time I try to copy and paste and I was trying to copy and paste someone's comment
51:34
saying it's like a warning that this is real.
51:38
Almost like you couldn't drill into that head with a bit.
51:44
So if this wasn't enough, I...
51:47
So I screen-shoted that to Caitlin and sent it to her.
51:50
And then she sees this little tiny comment that someone had made that had absolutely nothing
51:57
to do with what I was talking about, like totally nothing to do with it.
52:01
And she just assumed like that was my topic, right?
52:04
Mm-hmm.
52:05
Yeah.
52:06
And so she Googles it and she's like, "Are you fucking kidding me?
52:08
This is a fertility god."
52:11
And I am working on this story that's, you know, kind of about fertility.
52:15
And...
52:16
Yeah.
52:17
So I was like, "Okay, is this a sign that I need to just drop this other topic for now and
52:22
just research this fertility god?"
52:24
Yeah.
52:25
A little and do a little bonus on it for Patreon.
52:29
So that's what I did.
52:30
I dropped my entire episode and worked on a bonus.
52:34
Well, you know, as one does sometimes.
52:38
But it's really interesting what I found.
52:43
Oh, boy.
52:44
Yeah.
52:45
I have about, I think, two and a half pages.
52:47
Oh, boy.
52:48
It's really cool.
52:50
A lot of it really directly relates, I feel like, to Caitlin.
52:55
So, uh, gray in a really good way, not bad.
52:58
Oh, okay.
52:59
Well, that whole thing was positive because you were kind of questioning your topic.
53:04
And I think that was just a sign like that you were doing the right thing.
53:08
Yeah.
53:09
I was.
53:10
I feel like this was a really tough one just because I know that abortion specifically
53:15
is a very controversial topic, but we're not really talking about abortion.
53:22
I mean, I did.
53:24
And I have a lot of thoughts and feelings.
53:25
And I did my best to reign the moon.
53:30
But, um, you know, this is about something far more significant than that.
53:36
It's just, you know, violence that doesn't have anything to do with, you know, what's
53:41
now become a political talking point.
53:44
Yeah.
53:45
You're an arsonist.
53:48
You're an attempted murder, arrests or an actual murderer.
53:53
Yeah.
53:54
I just got like this thing in my head, like murder to protest murder.
53:58
Yeah.
53:59
How does that make sense?
54:01
Make it make sense.
54:02
I don't think it's murder personally, but like coming from their standpoint.
54:06
But if you believe that it's murder and act like it's murder, yeah.
54:11
I just, I, yeah, just going to use their own goddamn slogan against them.
54:16
Anyway, so Patreon's going to get a really cool bonus.
54:20
And I think Caitlin's going to love it.
54:22
I'm excited to tell her about it.
54:24
Yeah.
54:25
Yay.
54:26
As indie podcasters, we love to show our support of other awesome shows.
54:35
So stay tuned for the promo we've got to share with you this week.
54:38
Let's show them some love you can find their info in our show notes.
54:43
Hey creepy people.
54:47
It's Gemma from I think my fridge is haunted, a very creepy podcast for very creepy people.
54:53
We tell all kinds of weird stories from the paranormal to aliens, true crime and history.
54:59
But what makes us different from all those other podcasts talking about this stuff?
55:03
Well, that's a good question.
55:05
And the answer is simple.
55:06
We have Australian accents.
55:08
Join me in my secret new co-host as we launch season six this August on Apple podcasts,
55:14
Spotify, Podbean and all good podcast platforms.
55:19
Until then, be creepy.
55:21
But don't be a creep.
55:25
You guys were back.
55:27
And don't worry, we did get more wine.
55:30
Well, of course.
55:34
I have shuffled.
55:36
I'm going to do it.
55:37
And then I can't let's go to shuffle and pull.
55:42
What was that?
55:44
Wow.
55:45
You guys, I've been having a lot of problems with my hands.
55:49
I cut my ring finger.
55:52
You can't really see that with the light.
55:54
It's like mini cards.
55:56
Oh, Caitlin.
55:58
I can't reach any of them.
56:00
Struggle bus, passenger number one.
56:04
If it wasn't 20 cards that fell away, could he use that?
56:07
I know.
56:08
Yeah.
56:09
Well, I feel like there's chaotic energy in here.
56:12
I was trying to cleanse it.
56:17
Okay, there we go.
56:19
We're feeling a little better.
56:20
We also just came off of an interview with some creepy, creepy haps.
56:26
Oh, interesting.
56:27
The star.
56:30
It's a very positive card.
56:31
It is, which seems a little odd, but I'm going to roll with it.
56:36
I love getting positive cards after a truly horrific story.
56:40
I feel like this was the doctor.
56:43
I should look up what kind of bird that is.
56:46
Yes.
56:47
Do that.
56:48
Okay.
56:49
Keywords are happiness, hope, light at the end of the tunnel and good fortune.
56:59
This lovely card often portrays a nude female figure in or beside a pool of water.
57:06
In some decks, she pours water from two jugs or chalices.
57:12
In the writer wait Smith deck, she pours the contents of one picture into a stream and
57:19
the other one onto the ground, showing the connection between two feminine elements,
57:26
water and earth.
57:28
They are shine in the background, sometimes in a circle or a halo-like formation around
57:34
her.
57:35
The naked woman represents truth and purity.
57:39
The jugs contain the waters of life.
57:42
Yeah, it's a very feminine card from what I remember.
57:46
We've read it a lot.
57:47
Wow.
57:48
And I've read it very recently.
57:50
We see shooting stars as Harp and Jersey of Good Luck.
57:55
We wish upon a star for the star is a universal symbol of hope.
58:00
Getting this card is like looking up at the bright starry sky on a clear night and seeing
58:07
all the magnificence of the universe.
58:10
This is a time of fulfillment, good fortune, creative inspiration and spiritual growth.
58:18
When you receive help from unseen forces and wishes come true.
58:24
The star signals an end to problems and the start of a new, happier phase of life.
58:30
I fucking hope so.
58:32
I think of it as the light at the end of the tunnel card.
58:36
Oh my god.
58:39
Like people who have had a near death experience and they see the light.
58:43
Or people that have been through a lot of shit.
58:46
Yeah.
58:47
Well, it's just interesting to me too because it talks about pouring the contents of one
58:53
picture into a stream and the other one onto the ground.
58:57
And immediately I had this flash of like that old saying throwing the baby out with the
59:04
bath water.
59:07
Which seems weird.
59:12
But I think there's, it just sort of speaks to, there's a way of handling disagreements.
59:22
I think, you know, kind of some of those quotations from the Jewish women leagues.
59:29
They really summarized.
59:31
I think probably what a lot of us would wish to say so eloquently.
59:37
Yeah.
59:38
You've been preparing for this time and now you've arrived.
59:42
The star shows you're in harmony with your life purpose using your gifts beneficially.
59:49
It signifies inspiration, intuition, inner wisdom, and joy.
59:57
In a reading about money, the star signals an improvement in your financial position.
1:00:04
Help comes from both the invisible world and the material one.
1:00:09
Remain hopeful.
1:00:10
Your dreams can be achieved.
1:00:12
If the reading is about your job, you may be moving into the spotlight.
1:00:17
Being recognition for your efforts, you're the star, and it's your turn to shine.
1:00:23
You feel good about yourself and confident in your place in the universe.
1:00:29
Success lies just around the corner.
1:00:32
In a reading about love, this card represents a bright, beautiful relationship that inspires
1:00:38
you and brings you joy.
1:00:40
The wish you made has or will soon come true.
1:00:45
Wow.
1:00:46
I just think it's an overall positive card.
1:00:49
It is.
1:00:50
You can't let the evil people win.
1:00:53
No.
1:00:54
Just keep trucking on.
1:00:55
Yeah.
1:00:56
Things will get better, hopefully.
1:00:58
Even though it's still happening in 2023.
1:01:04
Well, it's a morning dove.
1:01:08
A morning dove.
1:01:10
Interesting because you know, morning MOUR and it is spelled morning.
1:01:16
In that.
1:01:17
Wow.
1:01:18
Yeah.
1:01:19
Okay.
1:01:20
So that's interesting that I immediately just like, you're strong into it.
1:01:24
Like Doctor the God assassinated or like anyone else who lost their life or went through
1:01:29
a lot of pain because of these horrible people.
1:01:33
Wow.
1:01:34
Yeah.
1:01:35
Yeah.
1:01:36
Just should I read this?
1:01:38
Yeah.
1:01:39
Why not?
1:01:40
I'll try.
1:01:41
Okay.
1:01:42
I'm sorry.
1:01:54
I said that right.
1:01:56
You do.
1:01:57
Filled with trepidation and fear, he flew towards the bright beacon above the horizon.
1:02:01
Doves wings kept him aloft in the daylight through forest, valley and wasteland, heading
1:02:07
ever toward the morning star, still shining in the distance.
1:02:11
His dove journeyed, his heart lightened and felt echoes of past pilgrims.
1:02:17
His path intertwined with those of other travelers.
1:02:22
He left his fear behind.
1:02:24
He wheeled joyously in the sky and skimmed above the clouds, flying higher than he had any
1:02:30
right to.
1:02:32
He tested the boundaries of himself and the world he inhabited.
1:02:36
Wow.
1:02:37
That's interesting.
1:02:38
Yeah.
1:02:39
He tested the boundaries of the world he inhabited.
1:02:42
Okay.
1:02:43
A part of him hoped that he'd never reached that star, not wanting to journey to the end.
1:02:50
The rest of him wondered what would happen if he got there.
1:02:54
I'm wondering if you remember this fact about him, which was that he was a flight surgeon.
1:03:06
Really?
1:03:07
Wow.
1:03:08
I did not know that.
1:03:10
Yeah.
1:03:11
That's crazy.
1:03:12
I was right.
1:03:14
I mean, very representative.
1:03:17
I mean, the symbolism seems...
1:03:20
Wow.
1:03:21
Maybe I'm crazy, but...
1:03:22
No, I don't seem too pretty clear.
1:03:24
You're crazy.
1:03:25
What number is this?
1:03:27
17.
1:03:28
Yes.
1:03:29
I don't know if that has any significance?
1:03:33
I can't think of anything specific that resonates with that, but...
1:03:39
I'm going to check.
1:03:40
That was just really cool.
1:03:42
That was a good one.
1:03:43
That was what I wanted.
1:03:44
That was the energy I put into the car.
1:03:47
Yeah.
1:03:48
I mean, that was...
1:03:49
It felt more positive than that story felt like it had a right to.
1:03:54
Yeah.
1:03:55
So, they just can't win.
1:03:57
They can't do it.
1:03:58
No.
1:03:59
We have to be positive.
1:04:00
Okay.
1:04:01
Creepy ass day.
1:04:03
[Music]
1:04:13
[Music]
1:04:39
He wheeled jealousy in the sky and skimmed above the clouds.
1:04:43
I'm sorry.
1:04:44
I read that wrong again.
1:04:45
He wheeled jealousy.
1:04:46
Joyously?
1:04:47
Yeah.
1:04:48
What are kissing jealous?
1:04:49
I don't know.
1:04:50
Okay.
1:04:51
Re-do.
1:04:52
Cause you wish you could fly.
1:04:53
I know.
1:04:54
It's true.
1:04:55
Yeah.
1:04:56
Yeah.
1:04:57
[Music] pnwhauntsandhomicides.com