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Troy Cross | Is Bitcoin Incompatible with Washington? | Simply Bitcoin IRL · Simply Bitcoin

0:00
Yo, welcome to another episode of Simply Bitcoin IRL.
0:04
I have a very special guest with me today.
0:07
Have been trying to get them on the show for quite a while now.
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I do enjoy. Hey, how are you?
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Good man, happy to have. You Troy is with the Bitcoin
0:19
policy Institute. The way that I see it is, that's
0:23
kind of the lobbying effort for Bitcoin industry.
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I want to disagree, With that very strongly, okay?
0:32
We're not a lobbying organization and it would be
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illegal for us, to lobby as a 503.
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SI Racha lobbying has a different designation.
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Tax-wise, and our mission is actually similar, but different.
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We are An educational organization kind of like well
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I'm actually at my college here. I'm actually also a professor of
0:57
philosophy and Humanities and you know that's another
1:01
educational organization. So is be pi and it's true.
1:06
However, that we are generally speaking orange pills.
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Folks and educating people in Bitcoin seems a lot like it
1:19
seems Seems a lot like a lobbying.
1:21
It's from the outside because you know, the message around
1:25
Bitcoin is largely the truth around.
1:28
Bitcoin is partially positive, right?
1:30
So when you say that, because the mainstream narrative is so
1:33
skewed, it sounds like you're lobbying.
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And so I totally get why you made that mistake, but I think
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it's a very distinction, very, very important distinction to
1:42
make. Yeah.
1:44
So coin Center plays a similar role is that correct?
1:49
Yeah, exactly. There you go.
1:51
Okay, the reason I said, lobbying is because you guys are
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the Vanguard of responding to a lot of, how do I say this
2:02
responding? But yeah, that's great.
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Simplify it, love it. Okay, a lot of the Fudd coming
2:10
from the whatever you want to call them, the bureaucracy, the
2:14
government. And speaking of fud you guys
2:19
must have had your hands. Fold the last two or three
2:23
months, right? So just to give you guys a
2:27
couple things I want to talk about.
2:29
US Government sanctioning open source software for the first
2:32
time during two tornado cash. Also, the digital assets
2:36
framework released by The White House.
2:40
Let's start with the digital assets framework.
2:44
Did it surprise you that the it's not even the
2:49
administration. I might be going to blame it on
2:51
the bottom ministration but did it surprise you to the
2:53
administration took such a stance with Bitcoin and why did
2:59
They make it so that the regulatory requirements for the
3:05
entire mining industry are so, so like no other industry is
3:11
made to adhere to those types of requirements and those types of
3:14
Standards. So from your perspective, why do
3:17
you think they release something like that?
3:20
Yeah, well, let me step back first and sort of revisit the
3:24
history of where this all came from.
3:28
I think the history Are you actually goes way back to Alex
3:34
De Vries digit Economist and used to be Doge Economist a a
3:39
hobbyist Dogecoin ER who became a Bitcoin hater work for the
3:45
central bank is now in graduate school in economics.
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And basically, he was a hater and published a website devoted
3:53
to bitcoin hate and particularly on the environmental front.
3:58
And that fed into an academic literature fed into a famous
4:04
article in nature climate change in 2018, claiming the Bitcoin
4:08
mining alone. Could raise global temperatures
4:10
to degrees over pre-industrial times and and that piece then
4:17
fed into environmental activism, there was a letter sent to
4:22
Congress signed by 70 environmental organizations,
4:25
which cited, that paper, which was based on On this garbage
4:30
hobbyist website. Also that paper was refuted
4:34
three times in the same Journal. It was published in the same
4:36
year utter fabrication that paper.
4:43
But that's sent that letter signed by 70 environmental orgs
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led to other Congressional letters in a congressional
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hearing Congressional leaders to the EPA.
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And so on that led to the White House, taking Ian with, I think
5:01
probably smartly doing the whole of government approach and sort
5:05
of issuing an executive order to many branches of government to
5:10
basically frame, what the US, how the US should respond to a
5:18
new and emerging industry in terms of its ramifications for
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let's say, energy rates. And for pollution of various
5:30
kinds global warming for its impact on criminal activity
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evading sanctions, Etc, right? So that's where that's the
5:42
origin is thing. Maybe it would have happened
5:44
without Doge Economist kicking it off, but I think the actual
5:48
form it took was really a, just a few people, creating a lot of
5:55
fear. And then that creating A
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movement among nonprofits and that creating a political
6:02
movement and that generating response from government, right?
6:05
So I think that's the backstory. Can we start there?
6:09
No. But, you know, I didn't know all
6:12
those things, I did remember, the hearing it was funny how
6:15
they, they called it, as they called it, the cleaning up
6:17
cryptocurrency. They had a whole committee on it
6:21
just in the name itself. So exactly.
6:24
I I'm you know, I don't, you know, I don't work.
6:28
The Bitcoin policy Institute, but I'm in this weird kind of
6:32
position where to do a good job for simply.
6:35
We have to cover the news every single day.
6:38
Yeah. And from our perspective, we
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believe and we believe a lot of these.
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These people are not stupid. Okay?
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So, think going back and referencing the digit calmest
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from my perspective. I believe they're doing it on
6:56
purpose. I don't believe that.
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That there's so naive that they're just completely missing
7:02
out any updated data, and I think Nick Carter did a fabulous
7:07
job and then actually sailor even said it himself to quote
7:10
him. He even called the the I forget
7:14
the name of the report, but it was something climate related to
7:17
cryptocurrencies sailor, even used very strong word and he
7:20
even called it propaganda, right?
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So like, yeah, I have a slightly different take.
7:26
I mean, I have a slightly different take And then Nick,
7:30
and then, then Michael sailor. So I agree that that report, you
7:36
know, citing digit Economist particular, gave him more credit
7:42
than he is due for sure. And I think also, even though
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Mora is cited like once and in passing that that is all so
7:51
ridiculous. And I in general appreciated
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Knicks, incredibly thorough and detailed.
7:58
Old, you know, dismantling of elements of that report.
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But what I saw in the report was no not a propaganda campaign at
8:07
all. I saw an office in the White
8:11
House of non-specialists non bitcoiners trying to deal with
8:19
like an incredible body of evidence new evidence on a
8:25
topic. They did not understand and so
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They put out a call for request for information, affect my
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partner at BPI Margo Pez and I wrote one and they got a
8:41
tremendous number of replies, including one that was very
8:44
influential from the Sierra Club.
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And what they did was basically read those rfi's synthesize,
8:53
what they were reading, write and read the literature cited
8:57
in. Those are FIS and the truth is
9:00
there just isn't a good body of literature on bitcoin.
9:03
It's impacts, it's an incredibly subtle revolutionary kind of
9:09
consumer of energy and they were trying to, like, kind of
9:13
triangulate to make the best of what they had.
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So let me call your attention to some of the really good things
9:19
in the report that basically did not appear anywhere before this
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report in anything from anyone affiliated with the Democratic
9:27
Party. One of those, one of those
9:32
things was that they completely debunked and dismissed the the
9:38
evaluation of Bitcoins power use or emissions per transaction.
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They completely rejected that metric which lots of democratic
9:49
politicians and haters of Bitcoin.
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Have used they debunked it very well.
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They also acknowledge Bitcoins role in mitigating methane and
9:58
In landfills but also in flaring.
10:00
They also acknowledged that the future of high penetration
10:05
renewable grid a grid. That's based a lot on wind solar
10:09
hydro and so on will require large flexible, consumers of
10:13
power, they recognize that Bitcoin as a user of power is is
10:17
flexible and can participate in demand response.
10:20
They acknowledged that it could have a role in financing new
10:23
renewable, build out these are things we haven't heard anyone.
10:28
From the left basically say about Bitcoin.
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Now there are all qualified every time one of these things,
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every time, one of these things was mentioned there was they
10:40
would walk it back, they would contextualize it, they would
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surround it with Fudd. I mean I will grant you that the
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tone of the document was definitely.
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This is bad. It's guilty until proven
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innocent. And it was grossly unfair and I
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tweeted a lot about that at the time relative to other
10:56
Industries but you You think Overton window?
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You know, what was acceptable to say about Bitcoin before the
11:03
report and what was acceptable to say about Bitcoin after the
11:06
report? And let me just say to another
11:09
thing that they rejected which I have not seen anyone else on the
11:12
left. Reject is, they rejected the
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equivalence between proof of work and proof of stake.
11:17
You know, in this is huge because we're up against a
11:19
campaign right now to quote unquote, change the code which
11:22
everybody knows the code is not going to be changed, you're not
11:25
going to convince tens of thousands of people around the
11:27
world is suddenly changed. Their code and you're free to
11:30
introduce and change the code yourself, that's a front.
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However, for a regulatory attack, a government attack on
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bitcoin and proof of work and this Administration did not take
11:40
that bait. They did not say.
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Oh well, you know, hey, they there was plenty of praise for
11:45
proof of steak, but when it came to comparing proof of stake and
11:48
proof of work, they explicitly said we're not going to do that.
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We're going to let the market do that and the experts in the
11:55
field do it right? And we're not those experts.
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And finally, I will say, in defense of this report, which is
12:02
odd because, I mean, I also hated much of it for me to be
12:06
defending it. But I'm just providing, I think
12:08
what's I'm providing the kind of Ray of Hope that you know, that
12:13
Nick and Michael Sailors that are not are not I think giving
12:15
quite it's do. But you know this is an opening
12:21
Salvo. The main conclusion of the
12:23
report was not Bitcoins bad, let's ban Bitcoin.
12:25
That was not the conclusion to report the conclusion.
12:28
The report was we have shit data, we need better data.
12:32
We actually don't know what what the emissions profile of Bitcoin
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is what its energy uses, how it interacts with markets, we don't
12:40
know. And we have to study that and
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moreover there was an invitation to the industry to meet with
12:47
them and start a dialogue about about this.
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So this was not the end of a conversation actually from the
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administration. It was the beginning.
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It was an opener. I know it cost us.
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Some are Who heads the energy division of the office of
13:00
Science and Technology policy came on Twitter and did a spaces
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you know maybe a week after report came out and when people
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asked him about digit condiments numbers and how they're probably
13:11
off, you know he said look we were just trying to survey the
13:14
numbers that were out there to give you a sense of what was
13:17
there. We're not endorsing those
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numbers. In fact, our conclusion was that
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we don't have good numbers and we need them.
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The purpose of the survey was just to see what's out there and
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to give you a kind of range. And Dish Economist is part of
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that range. And even though digit honest is
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not actually, you know, an academic, his numbers get cited
13:40
by all the academics actually, they get cited by all the
13:43
academics. So I agree.
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Completely with Nick Carter that you know, it's embarrassing to
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site. Did you condoms?
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It's me more embarrassing to say Maura at all 2018.
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But in context, what they were trying to do, is kind of like a
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lit review. This is bunch of bureaucrats and
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scientists, you know, phds in various Fields economists
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energy, experts environmental experts, they don't know
14:08
anything about Bitcoin, they figured they'd basically self
14:11
educated on an entire field wrote this report triangulated
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what they had and then yeah I think there's this little
14:19
sentence that triggered everybody about how you know, if
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Bitcoin cannot if Bitcoin mining crypto mining cannot Show itself
14:28
to be on a path to carbon neutrality along with the rest
14:32
of the economy. Then we could have executive
14:37
action or legislative action and that that was the kind of like
14:41
stick behind the report but it was an incredibly you know that
14:49
that was basically like you need to come and talk to us.
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There's no actual plan to do that.
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They would have a really hard time in pulling it off.
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So I actually saw The report as a good thing.
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I think these kinds of like civil servants are not
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malicious. They are probably heavily
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influenced by, you know, they're there.
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The groups that are more aligned with them, like the Sierra Club
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is going to carry a lot more weight with them that BPI for
15:18
instance because they're a political supporter, right?
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So that kind of colors the report.
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It's not perfectly objective or anything like that, but I think
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we did Really really well given my Baseline expectations.
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I've never saw all those positive things, I listed.
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I've never seen any of those before from a democratic
15:37
politician. So you mention that's very
15:41
interesting because I've I'm picking that pattern up and to
15:45
me it's extremely troubling, right?
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Bitcoin is a neutral technology, it doesn't favor the political
15:52
left or the political, right? But the pattern that I'm
15:56
starting to pick up and it troubles me.
15:58
Tremendously. Because the last thing that I
16:00
want for Bitcoin to be in the United States has become a
16:03
partisan issue. Why more hostility coming from
16:09
the political left and the political right?
16:12
The political right seem to be a lot more embracing of this
16:16
technology versus not all. Okay?
16:19
The we know that Senator gillibrand is teaming up with
16:22
senator lummis in the, in the crypto bill, right, I hate using
16:26
that word but that's what it is. But you also have examples like
16:31
Elizabeth Warren. That is literally out to get the
16:35
industry. She's on a she's you know she
16:40
has her Target set. Why do you?
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Why do you believe that is Troy and more importantly?
16:45
Right. Because we could all complain
16:47
and whatever. What would it take for that to
16:49
change? Well it's an unfolding tragedy
16:53
from my perspective. I think we're seeing
16:58
Polarization it's happening in Europe on this issue as well and
17:01
like you say there are exceptions.
17:03
You know, Ron Wyden was one of the people who push back against
17:06
some of the, you know, original attempts to crack down on, on
17:10
bitcoin by Treasury and he's a, he's a Democratic senator from
17:14
Oregon where I'm where I'm at right now.
17:17
And there are a few voices on the left and it, but as you say,
17:24
it is spiraling and it's just hard not to believe.
17:28
Eve that it this issue gets polarized like every other issue
17:32
but it is also I think a tragedy because I think a Bitcoin as a
17:39
neutral technology, it does hamper the sort of fever dreams
17:45
of control and and money that some people on the left have.
17:52
And I think the cheap answer to your question of like, why is it
17:54
polarizing is that? On the left have authoritarian
18:02
leanings around issues of energy, use and climate, they
18:06
have authoritarian leanings around control of money, and the
18:12
left is growingly comfortable with authoritarianism that
18:16
didn't used to be the case, but I do see elements of that.
18:19
Right. I hate to admit this, that's I
18:21
think the right the right wing Bitcoin.
18:23
ER says, it's because the left is authoritarian.
18:27
I'm Still in the camp of the left, doesn't understand the
18:33
potential of Bitcoin for achieving all of the aims that
18:38
they want to achieve like anything that the left wants
18:40
basically Bitcoin can help us get there faster.
18:43
They don't see that yet and they're really, really put off
18:47
by the political identification with Bitcoin from the other
18:52
side. So when Ted Cruz is like talking
18:55
about how Elizabeth Warren, doesn't get Bitcoin issues wants
18:57
to control. You, you know, so the left sees
19:00
that and they're like, well Ted Cruz likes, it must be bad.
19:03
And Ted Cruz is making fun of us because of all that is.
19:05
And then the Sierra Club, gives them a nice report showing how
19:07
Bitcoin so strong the environment.
19:09
They're like, okay yeah that's it, we're done with Bitcoin and
19:12
you know, that's how the actual thing goes their crime to hate
19:16
it because their enemies like it.
19:17
And then we don't need an explanation for polarization
19:20
because, you know, it's just everywhere and what we're trying
19:25
to do and maybe this is stupid, I don't know.
19:28
No, but what I'm trying to do still is to explain Bitcoins
19:31
benefits in a neutral way to explain its potential in a
19:35
neutral. I mean, I think that access to a
19:39
financial system in rails and access to a savings vehicle.
19:43
That is not debatable access to to uncensor herbal, peer-to-peer
19:48
payments. I think that's good for
19:51
everybody in the world, no matter your political leanings,
19:53
unless you're an autocrat. Like if you trying to spy on
19:56
people and control them, It's not good for you but otherwise
20:02
it can be good for you. So that's the, that's the hope
20:06
that's the tragedy watching the spin out of control and also the
20:10
hope and I've actually read a fundraising letter from Jared
20:12
Huffman about Bitcoins. Like we wrote a letter to the
20:17
EPA fighting, these bitcoiners, they're destroying the
20:20
environment. And once you start to see
20:22
fundraising letters that are written on the issue of Bitcoin,
20:25
it's like oh my God, you know this is Is going to be really
20:29
hard to get back under control. Oh, man, and yeah, I I, I've
20:37
picked up on that too unfortunately.
20:39
And the tragedy of this right? Is, you know, this solves the
20:45
inclusivity issue. It's solves a lot of, you know,
20:49
a lot of people try the way, I fundamentally agree with they're
20:53
working two jobs in the US, and they can't make ends meet.
20:55
And the tragedy of it is, They think it's the other political
21:00
party in the both political parties.
21:02
Do this great bait and switch, you give us power.
21:06
The Democrats will fix your problems.
21:08
If you give us power, the Republicans will fix your
21:10
problems but the issue is the money is broken.
21:14
The money stealing from everybody and it's causing this
21:17
crazy wealth inequality which you know just throws more gas on
21:21
the fire and I think that Bitcoin is this Common Ground
21:27
between People with different differing ideologies, you know,
21:32
and it's unfortunate. It's amazing to look at an issue
21:37
like inequality which used to be at the very center of the
21:42
platform for Democrats. Like, we Face a massively
21:48
excerpt of accelerating income inequality, wealth inequality,
21:52
unaffordable housing, and you have people on the left.
21:58
And as you say, my dosage by my diagnosis is just the same as
22:01
yours, it starts in 1971, other many causes of inequality but a
22:05
big one is our monetary system accelerates it.
22:11
And you know this is this is not some some secret but just when
22:15
you think about how money works you know it gets redistributed
22:21
upwards. Essentially money gets
22:23
redistributes wealth upwards and we are just Roy the value of
22:27
Labor. Over time.
22:28
So it's bizarre. It's bizarre to me that we have
22:35
people like Elizabeth Warren, essentially fighting the one
22:40
thing that can fix the problems that they care about and you
22:44
know, she's a big bank. I mean, she came to power on her
22:47
critique of banks, following 2008 crisis, right.
22:50
Elizabeth Warren was a leading critic of Banks and Bank
22:54
regulation and now she is in their pocket.
22:58
I'm them against an upstart competitor.
23:00
The banks are exclusionary the bank's accelerate inequality.
23:05
And the one thing that disintermediate them with just a
23:08
few lines of code is Bitcoin and she's trying to attack it,
23:12
right? So it's just like to me, you
23:15
know, yeah either she is a rank hypocrite and thoroughly
23:20
corrupted by Washington or she Is tragically misguided one of
23:25
those two, you know, I I took and I thought myself very hard
23:33
to buy into the, this is malicious and I fought myself
23:40
hard and I because you're looking at this and you're like
23:43
look and then the the example of Norway came up.
23:47
And the Norway example was really interesting because
23:51
again, once again, I don't know why this is, but it was the
23:54
left-wing parties in Norway that wanted to ban Bitcoin.
23:58
Mining. Now, what's interesting about
23:59
Norway is that 98% of energy production in Norway comes from
24:06
renewable energies, of which 100 percent of Bitcoin miners in
24:11
Norway are powered by renewable energies and for some reason,
24:17
they still wanted to ban it and that to me was very troubling
24:22
and that's and where I'm at in my mind and it's not necessarily
24:26
the truth, or I'm just telling You the conclusion that I've
24:30
reached covering this day to day being a slave to the new cycle
24:35
is maybe it was never about inequality to cert to people
24:40
like Elizabeth Warren maybe it's always been about power and what
24:45
we know about Bitcoin is it completely disintermediated
24:48
power, right? And you know one of the central
24:51
tenets right is having a central bank, you having a central bank,
24:55
you control people through monetary policy.
24:58
Perhaps it's a fundamental threat and to me Troy that is
25:02
the heartbreaking part because I guess maybe I've convinced
25:08
myself that it was always a noble goal.
25:13
But perhaps like Bitcoin. Always does it exposes
25:16
incentives and as the case with Elizabeth Warren, We have an
25:22
example of that. Bitcoin, exposing its
25:24
sensitives. Like, it always does.
25:26
What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, the this is, I guess it's
25:30
a Trope but it's, it's a good one.
25:32
That the real resistance point to bitcoin is control, giving
25:38
up, control control of the money supply, and control of who pays
25:44
what to whom and you do see Elizabeth Warren.
25:47
Going after that, you do see here going after that when she I
25:52
had the chain analytics guy on like grilling him about the
26:00
ability to trace money from billionaires her.
26:04
That's a concern coming from treasury, but then she also has
26:07
the ESG fide. And, you know, the, I guess the
26:10
right, probably the right way to think about it is that the
26:14
environmental arguments that get against Bitcoin, while they may
26:19
be sincere, The easier arguments to make because they don't look
26:24
like a naked Power. Grab in the way that, you know,
26:27
the ofac arguments go the the treasury arguments go.
26:30
Like because treasury doesn't really want to say straight out.
26:34
We want a financial panoptix on where we can see every single
26:38
transaction in the world cancel it.
26:41
If we so choose or reverse it right?
26:44
Because that sounds really, really creepy.
26:48
But it sounds okay to say sounds more than okay to Say, we don't
26:52
want some new consumer of power coming in and keeping coal,
26:55
plants, open, that were closing down and a polluting, the
26:59
atmosphere in their neighborhoods and put in an
27:01
increasing the CO2 and, you know, undoing our efforts
27:05
elsewhere in climate. So we've got a, you know, a nice
27:08
sounding attack and a kind of nasty sounding attack.
27:11
And so, you put out the nice one first, and that's like your
27:13
front line. But you always have the real
27:16
motivation of just a naked Power grab behind it.
27:19
In terms of Norway, Norway is a very Long country north to
27:23
south, and it's what's interesting is not only are all
27:28
the miners in Norway running on renewable energy.
27:31
But also the miners in Norway are all in the North and the
27:35
north doesn't have sufficient interconnection to the South
27:39
Powers. Very expensive in the South, the
27:41
resistance to mining Bitcoin. Some of it was coming from like,
27:46
hey, our power is really expensive.
27:48
We're in an energy crisis in these are you know, using a
27:51
large It's of energy, wastefully quote-unquote, you know, just
27:55
just to get more Bitcoin but actually mining in Norway is
28:02
exclusively in the north that where power is cheap because
28:05
there aren't large consumers of power, right?
28:07
So, the issue is kind of complicated there.
28:09
And, yeah, it's the greens driving things.
28:13
I think what has happened is that we are in a moral Panic,
28:16
right? We're in a moral Panic.
28:18
There isn't a logical explanation for this, you You
28:21
know, I'm writing a these policy pieces and going after arguments
28:24
one by one sort of Nick Carter. Asked you, you do, like, you
28:28
treat them like points in a debate.
28:30
You just examine each point, is it true?
28:32
Is it false? What's its evidence?
28:33
What are the arguments against it?
28:35
But what's actually happening is that in part because of the
28:40
money we're in a kind of social collapse, and everyone can feel
28:44
it. Everyone can feel that
28:45
politically things are uncertain economically.
28:48
Things are uncertain. And we're like we doing what
28:51
humans Humans have always done. We're looking for a scapegoat,
28:54
we're looking for a simple explanation, right?
28:57
Is that illegal immigrants? What is it like politicians live
29:01
on creating these simplistic narratives?
29:03
That explained everything about why the world is falling apart?
29:07
And here's a narrative. Bitcoin is to blame for,
29:10
basically everything it embodies every single thing wrong with
29:13
the world, you know? It's, it's a hyper financialized
29:19
digital tool that enables In theft and destroys the
29:24
environment you know on top of it enables us to basically
29:27
disintermediate the state, undoes all of the all of the
29:30
good that collectively humans have ever done to live
29:34
peacefully together, Bitcoin destroys and attacks.
29:37
All of it. While enriching a few Bitcoin
29:40
Bros and sending us Beyond any climate Target.
29:45
That is an explanation of everything.
29:48
It's the ultimate bad guy is the ultimate Villain, right?
29:52
So it's so funny as you step into the Bitcoin world, and we
29:56
also have an ultimate villain which is Fiat in the money
29:58
printer. Write this like this.
30:00
Also, a somewhat simplistic explanation.
30:03
But once you're caught in this, I mean what's amazing to be?
30:07
I'm sure you've seen this as well, is the Bitcoin haters on
30:10
Twitter, right? These people like devote their
30:13
lives to hating Bitcoin there on Twitter, writing all the time,
30:16
and it's all negative stuff, right?
30:18
They think they're fighting this isn't about.
30:21
This is like some kind of spiritual warfare, right?
30:24
This is a, this is a borrow fight for the soul of humanity
30:27
in the future and Bitcoin is like a symbol at this point.
30:31
It's a symbol. It just represents a certain
30:34
kind of individualistic disregard for institutions and
30:39
other people, and the environment.
30:40
And, you know, climate Justice, Etc, disregard for all of the
30:45
Sacred cows. And, and, and so that's what
30:49
we're up against and that That picture just so happens to align
30:53
to back your political polarization Point.
30:55
Get some answer to my earlier, question, that bad guy image
31:00
plays perfectly into the left image of a bad guy, right?
31:04
So it's a, it's just it's just it's just perfect bait for them
31:08
and we have to somehow, yeah, we have to somehow get beyond the
31:13
moral Panic. How do you get through a moral
31:15
panic? I mean, usually you go in like
31:17
you go and hide moral, panics are not good places to be out
31:21
there. That's where people, you know
31:22
what I mean? That's where like witches, get
31:24
burned and people get end up, drinking Hemlock or whatever,
31:28
you don't want to be a rational person in the middle of a port
31:31
Panic. You want to be on the right side
31:33
of the panic, The Winning Side with power, right?
31:36
But that's the kind of dark picture of where it goes.
31:41
The brighter picture is that it looks kind of like the internet.
31:44
Like there was kind of a moral Panic to begin with or
31:46
electricity or other disruptive Technologies radio.
31:51
Trains automobiles. Every every cool thing we have
31:56
there was a moral Panic of some scale around it and that you
31:59
know 20 years in the future Bitcoin is so boring.
32:03
No one can understand why you ever spent a few years of your
32:06
life. You know, talking about Bitcoin.
32:09
It's just like it's just like the electricity running through
32:13
your walls. You know no one's like I'm in
32:16
electricity guy. I mean we have electricians but
32:19
they're not people who like Bukit for electricity.
32:23
I like to educate people about electricity.
32:25
No, it's like we all use. It's part of our Lives.
32:28
Same with the internet. Same the telephone same with the
32:29
train, right? Maybe that's the future for
32:31
Bitcoin. The question is, how big does
32:34
the moral Panic get and how long does it take us to get to that
32:37
point? You look at a moral Panic around
32:38
marijuana, you know that last decades you know the moral Panic
32:42
around like child like Satanic rituals or whatever.
32:46
That was meaning much shorter lived, maybe, maybe 10 years.
32:49
So if I really wanted to know what the timeline is, I'd be
32:52
looking at like the history of moral panics.
32:57
And it's fascinating because I remember that propaganda piece
33:02
or they're trying to scare the crap out of people from using
33:04
electricity and it's like a propaganda piece from like the
33:08
early 1900's and it's like people are just getting
33:11
electrocuted. So I know exactly what you're
33:13
talking about and look, the the Bitcoin haters are fascinating.
33:18
They have some type of Stockholm syndrome because it's like, what
33:22
are you really fighting for that stuff?
33:25
Ain't benefiting you. What are you doing?
33:29
But I think that there's so entrenched and their position
33:32
now. I kind of want to Pivot a little
33:34
bit. You mentioned the office of
33:37
foreign assets, control the ofac and for anyone that doesn't know
33:42
and Troy, please, correct me if I'm wrong, they are part of the
33:46
US Treasury and they're the ones that sanction other countries
33:51
right now. What was really interesting
33:53
though is that not too long ago? Ously couple weeks before the
33:59
White House released their digital assets framework of
34:01
which they referenced. What I'm going to talk about day
34:09
sanctioned open source, software for the first time and mad Odell
34:14
had this amazing tweet and it was fascinating.
34:16
He's like look a blog post and the US government successfully
34:20
shut down a mixer. Now what's interesting though is
34:25
that the Of foreign assets control also set their targets
34:29
on Russia and Iran. And in the news recently, Russia
34:35
and Iran, have both announced that they're going to use
34:38
Bitcoin to facilitate International Trade.
34:41
The US government gets a tremendous amount of power has a
34:44
tremendous amount of Power by being the world, being the world
34:47
Reserve currency and being able to police people by being the
34:52
world Reserve currency Bitcoin is being used.
34:56
Just currently even though it's very small levels to circumvent
35:01
a lot of us sanctions policy. How is the treasury ever?
35:06
Going to accept something that diminishes its power.
35:13
Yeah, well just to go back to tornado cash for a minute.
35:17
I was at a conference recently at MIT and Regulators were there
35:23
and talking about that sanction and They were like insistent
35:28
that the the protocol was not being sanctioned at, that's just
35:31
what it sounded like. But if you understood what they
35:33
were actually trying to do, It was like sanctioning people and
35:41
more more. Generally, this is an issue with
35:45
Bitcoin and other truly decentralized.
35:49
Things Regulators, do not understand like how to deal with
35:55
a protocol. They understand how to deal with
35:58
an organization, a state, a person a business, but it's
36:02
always like there's a face. There's always a leader
36:05
leadership. Right and with with tornado
36:10
cash, it's like who's the face who's the leader?
36:14
And so they kind of fumbled, they kind of stumbled but the
36:18
same is true actually of Bitcoin.
36:20
If you think about who represents Bitcoin, there was an
36:23
instance and I wasn't there personally but I heard about it
36:28
where a u.s. senator actually asked like who is the CEO of
36:32
Bitcoin like they wanted to talk to the person and if you think
36:37
about it, The pert, the people who lawmakers do talk to about
36:42
Bitcoin are minors, you know, head CEOs of mining companies
36:49
and also you know, exchanges and other Bitcoin businesses.
36:54
But those people are not Bitcoin right?
36:58
If anybody's Bitcoin it's us it's the blips right but it's a
37:04
collective social thing. It's like a you know, it's like
37:08
a mycelium or Forest or something big and so they don't
37:14
really know how to Target that. Now, when it comes to ofac, and
37:17
your question about, Evading sanctions?
37:22
Yes, I think this is a concern. Yeah, right now, criminals use
37:28
cash. That's the biggest way to evade
37:30
sanctions. That's the biggest way to
37:31
launder money. That's the way the biggest
37:33
facilitate crime after that. Probably USBC, you know, our
37:36
HSBC, and the other large banks that have been convicted of
37:41
money, laundering, more more times than you can count, but
37:45
Bitcoin can enable us, and that's a fear they have.
37:48
And so the question is, what happens next?
37:50
And I think we look at what happened with ofac, and with
37:55
etherium etherium, is kind of the upshot for aetherium and we
38:02
can predict what will happen with Bitcoin if there's a very
38:05
large transaction or if it just becomes a norm to evade
38:10
transaction to evade sanctions, with Bitcoin, on a large enough
38:14
scale that it really bothers treasury.
38:16
I don't think they will give up power.
38:18
I They will sanction, it just the way they sanctioned in a
38:22
Venezuelan currency or whatever, they could do that.
38:27
I think the most immediate pain point for our industry would be
38:32
the miners, they could make it illegal to include certain
38:37
addresses, you know. Transactions from certain
38:40
addresses in a block and they could just as an executive order
38:45
say to all miners in the country.
38:48
In the US or for their allies to in Europe.
38:51
Like don't include any transaction in a block from
38:58
such-and-such addresses and if you do, there will be penalties
39:03
that you do not want to face and people will comply with that.
39:07
Because what choice do they have?
39:08
Right, the question is, okay? Right now us has maybe 30% of
39:13
the hash rate so that's not Fifty-one percent, so they can't
39:19
control the chain. So blocks will still get mind
39:24
that include the Forbidden transactions and they will still
39:27
be added to the Bitcoin blockchain.
39:30
And now we Face a really serious Choice point from ofek.
39:34
Are they going to say you cannot mine on top of a chain?
39:39
That includes a forbidden transaction but you have to kind
39:42
of like go back in the chain. Before that forbidden
39:47
transaction appears and mine from that, you know, block
39:51
stump, are they going to say you have to do that?
39:55
Because if you do, if they say that essentially made it illegal
39:58
to mine, Bitcoin in the u.s. all right.
40:01
And if they just say you can't include these transactions in a
40:06
block that's fine you just you just don't have access to the
40:09
revenue from certain transactions but they still get
40:11
mine, they still get including the Bitcoin blockchain and Point
40:15
is still a nun, sensible payment network.
40:18
If they say you can't mine on top of any block, that includes
40:22
a forbidden transaction. That's essentially a ban on
40:25
Bitcoin mining you can mine some other coin that's kind of like
40:30
Bitcoin but it will not have 51% of the hash rate, right?
40:35
So that's the big if I'm sitting in Treasury.
40:39
That's the discussion I'm having right now.
40:42
I recently started having finished.
40:45
This book called treasury's War by Juan Zarate, where he
40:50
details, how treasury, develop these sanctioning tools and like
40:57
they're they're really happy about what they're doing.
41:00
They're very proud of themselves for Waging War literal War.
41:04
But in a non-violent way, just through controlling the flows of
41:09
Of capital and Bitcoin. If it represents a threat to
41:13
that they are hugely motivated to to sanction it.
41:20
The question is, do they really want to kill off?
41:23
Mining in the u.s. when we have 30% of the hash rate, it's a
41:26
deeply ingrained business in the US and it would be politically
41:31
disastrous to go to basically make Bitcoin mining.
41:34
Illegal also would be challenged in the courts.
41:38
I don't see it going. Very well in Texas when they
41:40
tell the Texas miners to like stop mining Bitcoin when they
41:44
have built businesses around that, right?
41:46
So the political ramifications would be huge, the legal
41:50
situation would be dicey and then if they fail in their
41:54
attempt it's like it's ofac goes after Bitcoin mining in America,
41:59
it says you cannot mine on top of a block on a block that on
42:04
top of a chain that includes a forbidden transaction,
42:06
essentially outlawing, Bitcoin mining the US.
42:09
If they did that and failed because they lose in the courts
42:13
and they get stomped politically, and Bitcoin comes
42:17
back. Then Bitcoin is even more robust
42:20
because the most powerful force on the planet, the treasury
42:24
Department in money, the treasury Department, the United
42:26
States government could not stop Bitcoin when they tried, and
42:31
then it's Moon time and it's actually interesting because
42:35
you've been thinking about the game theory as much as I have,
42:38
right? And yeah, they it's such a
42:42
predicament that they are in that in my opinion.
42:46
I think that was part of the motivation behind setting a
42:50
precedent. Not sanctioning, an individual,
42:54
not sanctioning a government, but sanctioning a software,
42:58
right? Because they're saying hey if we
43:00
can get away with this right? And honestly, it was a strategic
43:06
move but it was so and it was very well.
43:09
Found out. I'm going to give them credit
43:10
for that right where they released it.
43:13
Would they release it blog post and it actually, eventually
43:17
fast-forward, it led to now more.
43:19
Now, we know that more than 50% of the etherium.
43:23
Validators are actively censoring.
43:25
For the office of foreign assets control.
43:28
They have a different Beast with dealing with Bitcoin because of
43:31
this decentralized nature. But still Are you seeing what
43:36
I'm seeing? There is going to be an
43:37
inevitable, full-steam clash between this bureaucracy that
43:44
believes that they fundamentally get to choose who is entitled to
43:48
use money or not and Bitcoins open monetary Network and I
43:54
think it's inevitable and it's going to be it's going to be a
43:57
hardcore crash. I see it.
43:59
It's on the horizon. But II mean I would just say I
44:05
think that there's, I think you're right that the mindset in
44:10
treasury is incompatible with what bitcoiners Envision for
44:16
Bitcoins future bitcoiners Envision, an Unstoppable
44:20
censorship resistant, peer-to-peer payment Network and
44:24
the treasury cannot allow that to happen at scale.
44:27
Yeah, the other things Bitcoins are bitcoiners want, is they
44:29
want it to be? Big.
44:31
So if Bitcoin at you know let's say five hundred thousand
44:35
dollars a coin and huge Capital flows.
44:38
Suddenly even though even if you know the dollar is unthreatened
44:43
and its status as World Reserve currency, you now have a very
44:46
viable alternative to the dollar through much of the world which
44:49
undermines treasury's ability to control all capital flows, all
44:55
major Capital flows. So, you're right, there's an
44:58
incompatibility in those visions and something's got to give, but
45:02
what I think, I mean, I guess my hopeful note here, Is that
45:07
treasury made this move? Kind of in the dark, they didn't
45:10
ask the Public's permission like, Hey, how do you feel about
45:13
us controlling all money? You know, that differ came to a
45:16
vote that was never on a ballot? No candidate ever ran.
45:20
On that issue. It was more like a series of
45:25
convenient Maneuvers in literal Wars.
45:31
We're trying to get governments to cooperate with us and this
45:35
was Lever that treasury discovered they could use or
45:38
multiple levers, that treasury discovered they could use.
45:41
So it was it really was a bureaucratic fantasy.
45:43
You know, I was like, oh my God, we don't have to pass any
45:46
legislation. Nobody does have to run as we
45:48
have more power than we realized.
45:50
All we have to do is just like issue these executive orders and
45:56
because the dollars the world Reserve currency and because we
46:00
have a lot of transparency, in terms of record record, keeping
46:06
We've already we've already in forced to that across the
46:09
banking industry. We actually have a ton of power,
46:12
like let's use it for good, you know, the tone of this book,
46:15
treasury's War, it's really triumphal list.
46:18
It's really self-congratulatory and I'm sure there's a lot of
46:21
cleverness and genius in applying this.
46:25
But me, as a Bitcoin, a reading, and I'm like, oh my God, you
46:28
know, this is amazing. It's like a, you're you're proud
46:31
of basically, you know, Stealing power from people.
46:38
So I see it. So yeah, those Visions will
46:42
Clash but I think I think that Bitcoin will bring treasuries
46:46
dream into the public sphere, where it will be debated
46:51
because, you know, it does have upsides and downsides like we do
46:54
lose something. When we give up that level of
46:56
control, we lose something in terms of our foreign policy.
47:00
Yeah. But then there's this tremendous
47:01
gain in terms of you know, human freedom and And we'll have to
47:06
have that public discourse and I think that's a good thing.
47:10
I 100% agree. I think it's going to and not
47:14
only that, right. Not only is it capital controls,
47:17
but it's also a very important question that I think
47:20
politicians are especially the the some people call it a deep
47:24
State. I would rather called the
47:26
administrative State, because it's right up in your grill.
47:30
Why are we being forced to use a money through legal tender laws?
47:35
That is designed to go down in value that is designed to lose
47:38
purchasing power and I think that is going to be a very very
47:43
difficult question that they're going to have to answer.
47:45
Right? We all we know that a lot of the
47:48
the specifically the United States, what's the deficit
47:51
spending like 1.5 some absurd number trillion they can only
47:56
get away with that with the money printer, right?
47:58
So it's these very important questions that we're all going
48:02
to have to answer. But you my friend and I Told
48:05
this the moment that I David told me that he was going to
48:07
start be Pi. I said my friend.
48:11
Good luck. You're going to need it.
48:13
You're going into the Cobra Nest that is the swamp of Washington
48:17
DC. So what?
48:20
And a lot of these answers, perhaps they know and this this
48:23
goes back to what I was asking you in the beginning, Troy And
48:28
I'm going to tie this in with a report that the White House
48:30
released and it was called the future of money and it was
48:32
released by the treasury. Shout-out Janet Yellen in the
48:36
future of Money Report. They did not mention Bitcoin.
48:40
One time, they mentioned stable coins and they mentioned payment
48:44
systems. And of course, our best friend
48:48
Central Bank, digital currencies, but they did not
48:50
mention Bitcoin, which tells you where the administrative State
48:55
sees the future of money. In their eyes and they're seeing
48:59
it from a position. I'm in a borrowed.
49:01
What Lawrence the part said, when he came on the show, they
49:04
want to hold on to that privilege of being able to
49:08
create money for free that everybody else has to work for.
49:13
So even if you are armed with the facts, which you guys do an
49:17
incredible job of BPI, maybe it's falling on deaf ears.
49:25
What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, I mean, you, you know, the
49:31
u.s. we have, okay, we've got two Powers.
49:35
The one is the power to demand that taxes.
49:38
Be paid in fiat currency and I don't see why states are ever
49:44
going to give that up. Even if Bitcoin succeeds wildly
49:48
and don't see the u.s. giving that up anytime soon.
49:52
But also everything is cheaper for Americans because of us
49:56
Reserve. Currency status.
49:59
Why would we give that up? Well, it has a downside as well,
50:01
makes our exports more expensive.
50:04
Tripping. Dilemma etc.
50:06
Etc. Right.
50:07
So it's there are downsides to having that status, but it gives
50:13
us a tremendous amount of control.
50:15
It gives us power. Ya.
50:18
Right now, you see our status is saving us in a way, because
50:25
everyone is, well, everyone selling treasuries, but but
50:30
their currencies are all depreciating against the dollar.
50:33
So it's like why would you give that up?
50:38
Why would anybody give that up? What?
50:40
I give it up if I were there probably probably not it's a
50:43
lever of power. Why would you give it up
50:44
willingly? I mean, the great thing about
50:46
Bitcoin is we just build this stuff in a parallel system.
50:54
You don't have to, we're not forcing anybody into it, right?
50:57
And you can opt out at any time and even if like treasury
51:02
cracks, Down in the worst possible scenario.
51:07
And they outlaw mining in the u.s. they're not going to be
51:10
able to stop me from running my note.
51:13
They're not gonna be able to stop peer-to-peer transactions.
51:16
It would be political suicide to do, so to even try it, and even
51:21
if they, even if they pass something like that, be
51:25
challenged across the the union. So these like, bureaucrats would
51:31
love to maintain what they've got.
51:33
In fact, keep enhancing it. That's what kind of what all
51:35
bureaucracy is do. All organizations, do they never
51:39
seed themselves to a new system, right?
51:42
They never cede power. They always consolidate power
51:45
and built. I can't think of any examples of
51:48
certainly any organization bureaucracy.
51:50
I've been a part of her known that seems to be their, their,
51:54
their whole goal. But Bitcoin doesn't really
51:57
require them to do anything other than You know, it doesn't
52:04
really require them to do anything except spin their
52:08
wheels, you know, and in a way the best thing they could do to
52:11
stop Bitcoin is just give us really good functioning money.
52:15
You know don't spy on us. Don't censor our payments don't
52:20
print tons of money and you do see you do see tightening you
52:26
know dropping the price of Bitcoin pretty dramatically.
52:29
It's like okay if the feds going to Titan Then then that makes an
52:34
inflation hedge less valuable. So in a way, the bureaucracy,
52:39
the only way it can really stop Bitcoin, it's by crushing demand
52:43
for it. And while there might be some
52:45
measures that hurt demand from where it is now to truly put it
52:49
under, they would have to just make money really good and be
52:52
very trustworthy, right? Which is another kind of great
52:55
scenario. If the state's all of a sudden
52:57
kind of like Step Up, run a money supply.
53:01
You know responsibly don't spy on people don't censor
53:05
transactions like that's a pretty good world if Bitcoin
53:08
languages at a very low price because of that I'm just fine.
53:12
Yeah now and it's all these all the game theories playing out.
53:17
It's fascinating but we do know that it's going to culminate
53:22
into something and what's really interesting about what you're
53:26
saying Troy is yeah it'd be great if they in debates the
53:30
currency and if sensors currency, but They're not going
53:34
to be able to resist that temptation to do whatever is and
53:38
to tend to control, right? Yeah, I kind of like to think
53:42
about, maybe it's because I am, you know, contrarian, like like
53:45
yourself, I'm thinking there is a kind of Collision Course, here
53:48
somewhere down the line. If we don't avoid that Collision
53:53
Course, by getting lots and lots of adoption, of Bitcoin and
53:59
building political political Capital.
54:03
Yes. Then then Bitcoin gets gets kind
54:07
of band pushed under, whatever. It just gonna continue, it'll
54:11
you can't eliminate it, right? You can't stop Bitcoin.
54:14
And then when it recovers, again, is something I said
54:17
earlier in the show when Bitcoin recovers from the US government
54:22
going after it, you know, you have re-election Cycles right
54:27
here to be people are pissed. Absolutely pissed.
54:31
If we ban Bitcoin, imagine the most severe And imagine the
54:34
Whiplash effect from the next election cycle, okay.
54:39
Then Bitcoin comes back. And then it's just like, yeah,
54:43
even the US government couldn't kill it.
54:45
And then that's kind of, like the final boss in the video game
54:49
and it's game over one hundred percent.
54:52
And, you know what's actually really fascinating, is the
54:54
having falls on the day, though? The year of the u.s.
55:00
presidential election. Now whether you think that's a
55:02
coincidence or not? Mmm, I don't know.
55:04
That's up to you to decide. But another thing Troy and I
55:07
want to take advantage of the last 10-15 minutes that we have
55:10
together. Oh, You said something about the
55:15
necessary political Capital that that needs to be accumulated.
55:19
I'm Anna and I'm a big believer in that and that's what I
55:22
believe is going. That's actually a big theory of
55:26
my case, right? Is that in the next five to ten
55:29
years, you're going to see these very important questions that we
55:33
just were talking about. Just now, why am I being forced
55:36
to use the money that's deals for me or that designed to lose
55:38
value? And why is it treasury dictating
55:41
who can use? Money.
55:43
And who cannot use money, right? How how do we start that?
55:49
Grassroots movement? How do we bring these ideas to
55:53
mainstream Consciousness? Because the reality is, if you
55:56
are not living in Argentina or Venezuela, where you have to
56:00
adopt Bitcoin out of necessity, rather than that, of speculative
56:03
reasons, how do we bring those ideas to mainstream
56:07
Consciousness, specifically in countries?
56:10
And we borrow Alex, glad steen's words that have the financial
56:13
privilege of Of having relatively stable Fiat
56:17
currencies that don't steal from you quite enough for you to
56:21
really kind of give, you know, give care about.
56:26
How does that happen? Is it just a regular Grassroots
56:30
door-to-door, you know, campaign issue?
56:33
What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, you know, I'm not much of
56:37
an evangelist, you might think otherwise on Twitter, but I
56:42
don't really try to sell people on bitcoin when we had ngu.
56:45
You know, it was good times and you didn't have to sell
56:47
anything. People are asking you about it,
56:51
but I do think in the public sphere.
56:53
We raise the two issues that you raised her excellent.
56:56
Like, why do we have to use a money that loses value?
57:03
I think, I think of this in Jeff Booth style terms, like why
57:07
aren't things getting cheaper? Given that?
57:10
That they're cheaper to produce. Everything's getting cheaper to
57:13
produce. That's what technology is.
57:14
Why aren't things actually getting cheaper?
57:16
Why don't we get to enjoy the fruits of our own labor?
57:21
Why is our Why are where our earnings debased as a matter.
57:29
Of course, those are pretty good questions and then I think on
57:34
censorship and and surveillance they're good questions to ask
57:39
about money to, you know, I think of Bitcoin very, very
57:43
broadly Beyond just thinking of it as good money.
57:49
It's a tool and it is a brand-new Tool in the history of
57:53
humanity, we've never had a truly decentralized record of
58:00
the past and a digitally scarce asset before.
58:06
And one that is tied to the physical world via consumption
58:11
of energy. So when we think about, you
58:16
know, is this a good thing, should you adopt it?
58:20
Should we make a space for it? Our policy.
58:25
My perspective is, we still don't have a really good answer
58:29
to that question because the higher order effects of Bitcoin
58:34
are hard to grasp because we are so early in its Evolution.
58:37
Actually, it's kind of like asking in the early days of the
58:41
internet, what comes out of the internet, right?
58:46
It's a tool for unlocking, human potential and coordinating
58:50
social Human activity in ways that humans could not coordinate
58:57
before, it kind of like a communication tool.
59:02
Most broadly, we need to be, I guess highlighting stories of
59:08
how Bitcoin is unlocking human potential.
59:12
I think about, people don't connect to those General
59:15
abstract questions, that you're asking, even though they're
59:17
great questions, people connect to stories.
59:20
And so I think about the That Alex gladstein is telling, you
59:24
know, Royal boobs story of leaving Afghanistan of paying
59:28
her workers in Bitcoin of girls getting education and having
59:32
Financial Independence because of that.
59:35
And I think about ludus story of funding, you know, flak jackets,
59:42
and first aid kits in the early days of Ukraine evasion.
59:46
You know, I think about the stories of preserving, one's
59:51
wealth, and Well, or Lebanon or this stories of refugees fleeing
59:55
with money in a in a 12 words, seat phrase, you know.
1:00:02
I think about remittances, I think about the circular economy
1:00:06
is that were building in, you know, Bitcoin Beach, and in
1:00:12
Guatemala, and in the Philippines.
1:00:16
And in South Africa, these this is how we build political And
1:00:22
Sherry thinking broadly of Bitcoin as a tool for unlocking,
1:00:25
human potential, and then stories of how it is doing that
1:00:29
with actual people. And most recent story that I'm
1:00:33
involved with involved with is using Bitcoin mining to mitigate
1:00:37
methane Emissions on landfills. Like I didn't anticipate that.
1:00:41
I mean I was in the Bitcoin in 2011, I never thought once about
1:00:46
possibly mining pick landfill gas and what that might do to to
1:00:53
mitigate global warming but it's a real narrative.
1:00:55
It's awesome. It's you know we Bitcoin miners
1:01:01
fill a niche there that no other consumer of energy fills and IT
1:01:06
addresses the what the UN calls you know, the or activates the
1:01:11
most powerful lever we have in the fight against climate
1:01:13
change, as an amazing story, and there are many, many more like
1:01:19
it, you know, the grid stabilization.
1:01:22
And and demand response participation and incentivizing
1:01:26
Renewables. These are also stories that I
1:01:28
didn't see over a decade ago and I'm just looking ahead into the
1:01:33
future and I know there will be even more stories just like
1:01:38
that. And when I think about a policy
1:01:40
environment, do you really want to set up your state with policy
1:01:47
that protects a bureaucracy rather than enabling an
1:01:51
emerging? Technology.
1:01:53
That could address, fundamental matters of human concern and
1:01:57
expand human potential. All right, that's my sort of
1:02:01
biggest frame. Beautiful beautiful, man.
1:02:04
I really enjoyed that and it's a perfect segue to my last
1:02:08
question and your Twitter bio. It says that you're an
1:02:13
environmentalist. Now, if you you know consume the
1:02:18
mainstream Fudd, you're like Bitcoin environmentalist that
1:02:22
But that's that's impossible. What's going on there?
1:02:25
And just to kind of you, and I know that you're going to enjoy
1:02:28
this. I had someone on my show, this
1:02:32
is company called Geo bit mine and they're using the excess
1:02:37
heat from Asic miners. To warm greenhouses and that's
1:02:43
freaking beautiful on top of, you know, the method.
1:02:46
And I know there's companies using methane from cow things.
1:02:50
Yep. Things the cow flatulence to say
1:02:53
it correctly to, you know, potentially turn that into
1:02:56
Bitcoin, where before it would go to way.
1:02:59
So just to end it with that Troy.
1:03:02
What is a Bitcoin ER, who is also an environmentalist?
1:03:09
Yeah, well I was environmentalist before I was a
1:03:11
Bitcoin ER and then fire effect, it was my environmental concern
1:03:16
about Bitcoin mining potential emissions.
1:03:21
That led me to stop mining back in 2011 when I did sort of back
1:03:24
of the envelope math. I mean segment environmentalist.
1:03:28
I'm not like gluing myself to walls and throwing mashed
1:03:33
potatoes on On paintings kind of activist.
1:03:37
I've LED discussions of like our investments here at the college
1:03:44
Among The Faculty, but also, at risk for I've given my money to
1:03:50
these orgs, the same organs that that signed that horrible letter
1:03:54
to Congress. You know, I try to live my life
1:03:57
in a way that I guess, I just think of it as a low time
1:04:01
preference, right? I want the world to be.
1:04:05
I want the world to be better when I leave it, then when I
1:04:07
came and that's how you hike. And that's how you live from my
1:04:11
from my perspective, especially when when it costs very little
1:04:17
to do. So Bitcoin, I think is yet it's
1:04:24
its compatibility with environmentalism is striking and
1:04:27
surprising, and you should see my DMs people will just write
1:04:31
bdms. Just to say, how much I suck for
1:04:34
having those. Two words in my bio and I get
1:04:37
those DM's from environmentalists like, how dare
1:04:39
you? This is disgusting.
1:04:41
You know, you're such a phony, I'll get it from
1:04:43
environmentalists, I get it from bitcoiners as well.
1:04:45
Get a lot of hate from bitcoiners, as well.
1:04:47
Right? Like it's shocking.
1:04:52
That's why it's in the bayou because the two are actually
1:04:54
both true and they both work together.
1:04:56
You mentioned you know mining using the waste heat from mining
1:05:00
one way to think about a minor is just It's just, it's a heater
1:05:09
that does some processing along the way.
1:05:11
You know, we already heat with simple resistance and that's
1:05:15
what Bitcoin mining is you have enough.
1:05:17
If you have an environmental objection to bitcoin, you should
1:05:19
also have an environmental objection to Heating.
1:05:22
And as you say that, here's a, here's one of those places where
1:05:26
we're going to see kinds of creative uses of waste heat that
1:05:29
we haven't seen yet. We've seen heat used for central
1:05:32
heating for, as you say greenhouses, We've seen it used
1:05:39
for food processing for fermentation for like beer or
1:05:44
whiskey. We've seen it used for drying
1:05:47
Timber. There's a lot of uses for Waste
1:05:50
heat soon. We're going to see some that are
1:05:52
really going to blow your mind with.
1:05:56
I can read these comments in. That is hilarious I'm sorry some
1:06:03
of the uses with water are going to blow your Mind in, what's,
1:06:08
what's still coming, right? But it's the main thing that
1:06:12
that Bitcoin, where Bitcoin works together hand in hand with
1:06:17
environmentalism is actually, this is a point that Jeff Booth
1:06:23
makes and it's related to point that safety makes its that
1:06:28
Bitcoin is limited in Supply algorithmically limited Supply,
1:06:32
right? So it's a scarce money and that
1:06:36
Means that there's only so much debt that you can build on top
1:06:40
of that system when you have an option to save, that is not
1:06:43
speculative. And it's not and you don't have
1:06:47
to spend, but you can just save your money and grow it at the
1:06:51
rate of economic growth. And if you look at our world
1:06:55
right now and why so much environmental destruction is
1:06:58
happening, there's a lot of explanations for it, but here's
1:07:02
a one, pretty good explanation. Of a lot of the environmental
1:07:04
structure. We have, we buy a bunch of shit
1:07:06
that we don't need. It's junk and we regret it.
1:07:10
We get sucked into a purchasing cycle.
1:07:13
It's unnecessary and Part is that we invest money, it spins
1:07:20
up businesses that really shouldn't exist and Bitcoin
1:07:25
fixes, both of those problems, right?
1:07:27
If you can save, you don't have to spend when your currency is
1:07:31
inflating, you don't have to spend your money right now.
1:07:33
You can save, and in order to save, you don't have to gamble
1:07:38
on the stock market, and that money, that's that extra money
1:07:43
that's pushed into the stock market simply.
1:07:45
Cuz you don't have a savings vehicle that is malinvestment.
1:07:49
It's not adding value. That's business is failing, that
1:07:52
shouldn't even exist. In each one of those businesses
1:07:55
extractive energy using consumptive and then furthermore
1:08:00
workers are paid in fiat currency, which is always
1:08:05
debasing and we know wages are sticky.
1:08:07
That's kind of how the whole, you know, that's kind of how the
1:08:10
whole twofold Mandate of the Fed works wages are sticky.
1:08:14
So in a downturn, And no one wants to take a wage cut but
1:08:18
they'll take a nominal wage remaining.
1:08:22
The same where there were take a real real wage cut.
1:08:25
So that works in Reverse to when it allows basically workers to
1:08:30
get paid less than they otherwise would especially when
1:08:33
we have a growing economy. So what we have is like wage
1:08:39
slaves who are never who are, who are not partaking in the
1:08:44
productivity gains. Gains in over the last 50 years
1:08:47
that they should have. And then they're forced to with
1:08:50
the money that they do have. They're forced to either consume
1:08:53
it right away or gamble it on stocks or something or real
1:08:57
estate. Then we, you know, then we push
1:09:00
up housing prices because it's another store of value.
1:09:03
Then you have to work, extra hard to buy a house.
1:09:07
So the fact that your wages are depressed and that the goods are
1:09:10
more expensive forces you to do work that you really wouldn't
1:09:12
otherwise do. So, we have a bunch of people.
1:09:15
Who are in, you know, bullshit jobs, doing work that they don't
1:09:19
want to do for companies that shouldn't exist, right?
1:09:24
And all of this creates environmental destruction and
1:09:27
then it's just so depressing as a way of life.
1:09:31
Generally, the treadmill, you know, here's where I'm with the
1:09:34
left. This kind of capitalism that we
1:09:36
have right now is just depressing and, and that is
1:09:41
incredibly destructive to the environment, all of that, right?
1:09:45
So that's that's the biggest picture Beyond like oh, Bitcoins
1:09:48
energy use can be good for mitigating methane.
1:09:50
It can accelerate the growth of Renewables, we can use waste
1:09:53
heat, you know, blah, blah blah. There's that stuff in particular
1:09:57
and I like all that the really big picture is that we have a
1:10:00
completely fucked up relation with nature due to our money and
1:10:05
and it's we're living in a dystopia.
1:10:08
And part of that dystopia is an environmental dystopia,
1:10:11
actually. And if we fix the money, okay?
1:10:14
Maybe it doesn't. Everything humans have always
1:10:17
been dicks but maybe it helps to maybe it helps to ameliorate
1:10:23
that. That completely messed up
1:10:25
situation man. That was absolutely beautiful
1:10:29
and I fundamentally agree. I think that and I do agree with
1:10:33
the left and in that sense to that people are working two jobs
1:10:38
and they still can't make ends meet, you know, and that's not
1:10:42
right. And, you know, unfortunately,
1:10:45
The traditional political means to effectuate change have been
1:10:51
corrupted by Broken money as well.
1:10:55
You really have to change the root problem in order to
1:11:00
effectuate change. And it's what you said, right?
1:11:03
All the in efficiencies, you know, they're caused by that,
1:11:07
that money printer, right? All the suffering as well but
1:11:12
that's a beautiful way of looking at it.
1:11:13
I really like that perspective. And I never really thought about
1:11:17
it either. Anyways, Troy this has been an
1:11:21
absolute pleasure man. Thank you so much for joining
1:11:23
us. Where could we really appreciate
1:11:26
it out? More about you and BPI and what
1:11:30
you're working on? Yeah, well yeah, thank you so
1:11:33
much for having me. This is a good conversation at
1:11:36
the the comments are really distracting to me, but they're
1:11:39
also various. I love it.
1:11:43
You can find me at Twitter. I'm kind of Living on Twitter.
1:11:46
I'm trying to wean myself off from it but it's impossible.
1:11:50
It's impossible because there's so there's so many brilliant
1:11:53
people there and there are also just traps for the minor that I
1:11:58
cannot avoid right but there's it's also just there's a lot of
1:12:01
signal to I'm at the tro Crow and I'm a frequent twitterer and
1:12:10
yeah that's probably the best place to find me.
1:12:12
I'm going to drop a bunch of stuff in the near future for
1:12:15
See, I'm working on a few different pieces, but, you know,
1:12:20
you can see my piece, I wrote for the White House Office of
1:12:24
science, technology, policy summarizes my take pretty well,
1:12:28
I wrote that together with Margo Pez who's also great on if you
1:12:34
want to follow her on Twitter as well.
1:12:36
I can't remember her handle exactly but it's jyn.
1:12:38
Erso the two of us are kind of the BPI energy team.
1:12:45
Awesome. Alright guys.
1:12:47
Well, that was another episode of Simply Bitcoin.
1:12:49
IRL will catch you tomorrow, 12:15 p.m.
1:12:52
Eastern Standard Time for the standard show.
1:12:55
Anyways, Troy, I'm going to roll roll this out.
1:12:57
The outro should be like 10, 15 seconds.
1:12:59
I'll be right back. Which one's the best crypto
1:13:16
asset will Bitcoins the best crypto last.
1:13:18
Okay, what's the second best?