Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Did millionaire real estate heir murder 'best friend' because she knew he killed his wife?

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Did millionaire real estate heir murder 'best friend' because she knew he killed his wife? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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  Speaker 1: willing crime stories with Nancy Grace. Her body was found
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  Speaker 1: on December twenty fourth of two thousand. How was she killed?
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  Speaker 1: While she was shot in the back of the head.
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  Speaker 1: What kind of gun? It was a nine millimeter and
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  Speaker 1: Gus Flank had just one shot? Not guiltily will be
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  Speaker 1: answered you are I'm willing to waive my rights. I
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  Speaker 1: do want to say here now row I am not guilty.
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  Speaker 1: I do not killed who you are hearing the sound
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  Speaker 1: of multi millionaire real estate air Robert Durst insisting he
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  Speaker 1: did not kill his best friend Susan Burman execution style
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  Speaker 1: in her California home. What could have been the motive?
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  Speaker 1: Maybe because Susan Burman knew Durst murdered his wife, Kathy.
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  Speaker 1: I was recently speaking at the Battered Women's Center named
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  Speaker 1: after his wife, Kathy. Everyone in that community is convinced
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  Speaker 1: that Robert Durst, the multi millionaire, kill not only his
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  Speaker 1: wife Kathy, her body has never been found, but the
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  Speaker 1: best friend that knew the details of that murder. And
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  Speaker 1: oh yes, there's Maurice Black, the elderly next door neighbor
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  Speaker 1: that was beheaded, his body washed up in Galveston Bay,
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  Speaker 1: found by a little boy, and a jury acquitted his
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  Speaker 1: neighbor Robert Durst. Everywhere this guy goes, he leaves behind
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  Speaker 1: a trail of dead bodies. Straight to you, Raymond Judah Chay,
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  Speaker 1: renowned Atlanta defense attorney. How can that be? What just
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  Speaker 1: a little coinkie diink a coincidence that everywhere Durst goes
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  Speaker 1: people end up dead. Yeah, don't don't go on a
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  Speaker 1: long ride with him across country. You probably don't get
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  Speaker 1: past the Mississippi River. He this is a difficult client.
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  Speaker 1: Was I supposed to laugh at that? Was that a
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  Speaker 1: kind of a Was that a defense attorney joke? Was that?
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  Speaker 1: What that was? When you do what we do, you
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  Speaker 1: have to have some sort of a sense of humor.
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  Speaker 1: But but this gentleman is going to come to a
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  Speaker 1: lawyer's office with all kinds of problems, but all kinds
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  Speaker 1: of funding. That's why he has excellent legal counsel on
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  Speaker 1: each of these many proceedings, all of which are death
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  Speaker 1: cases and serious cases. As you pointed out. In the
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  Speaker 1: current case, of course, he has pled not guilty and
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  Speaker 1: he's ready for trial. He's won before, he feels he'll
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  Speaker 1: win again, and he's got the bucks to the fund
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  Speaker 1: the case. Joining me, Robin Ulinski, Crime Online dot Com
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  Speaker 1: investigative reporter, Robin, I really don't know where to start
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  Speaker 1: with Robert Durst. You all probably saw the mini series
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  Speaker 1: on HBO called Jinks Okay that was about Durst, and
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  Speaker 1: famously they say he actually confessed to a murder under
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  Speaker 1: his voice under you know, in a low voice, whispered
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  Speaker 1: I kill them all. Now, how will that change the
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  Speaker 1: landscape of this trial? Take a listen to this or
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  Speaker 1: maybe yeah, right to Robin Molenski explained to me what
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  Speaker 1: he's saying in the bathroom. Well, here's the story, Nancy.
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  Speaker 1: This HBO documentary it's called The Jinx, The Life and
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  Speaker 1: Death with an s the depth of Robert Durst, and
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  Speaker 1: basically it's a five or six it's a six part
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  Speaker 1: series and at the very end his microphone, Durst goes
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  Speaker 1: to the bathroom and he's sort of he's an eccentric guy,
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  Speaker 1: and he's sort of talking to himself and mumbling and
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  Speaker 1: muttering and burping, and he basically says, hmm, I just
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  Speaker 1: got caught. And then he goes on to actually say,
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  Speaker 1: and we have the audio of it where I killed
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  Speaker 1: them all of course, let's take to listen to that term.
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  Speaker 1: There you hear him saying, I kill them all of course.
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  Speaker 1: In addition to Raymond, you to Chay Atlanta defense lawyer
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  Speaker 1: Robin Willinski, Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, forensics expert
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  Speaker 1: Karen Smith, and New York psychologist Karen Start a special
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  Speaker 1: guest joining me. Co author of Sex and a Serial Killer,
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  Speaker 1: My Bizarre Times with Robert Durst, Gary Greenberg. You know, Gary,
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  Speaker 1: I noticed when I got your book on I say
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  Speaker 1: on Kendall, but I actually got it on Amazon, that
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  Speaker 1: you and your co author have dedicated the book to
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  Speaker 1: the memories of several people. Very often a book will
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  Speaker 1: be dedicated to the memory of X, but you have
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  Speaker 1: dedicated your book to Kathleen Kathy McCormick Durst, a medical
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  Speaker 1: student who misguidedly married Robert Durst. You also dedicated to
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  Speaker 1: Lynn Schultz, college student missing at just eighteen years old,
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  Speaker 1: Susan Burman, Durst's best friend, and Morris Black, a seventy
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  Speaker 1: year old retired watch for pairman merchant seaman killed in Galveston,
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  Speaker 1: who was Robert durst next door neighbor. Why Gary, do
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  Speaker 1: you end it with? The book is dedicated to the
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  Speaker 1: memory of how many more and you have? Which I
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  Speaker 1: thought was pretty ingenious. You have a picture there with
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  Speaker 1: a silhouette, explained Gary. The book is a memoir by
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  Speaker 1: a man that's going by the name of William Steele.
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  Speaker 1: And William Steele is a repentant jewel thief who knew
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  Speaker 1: Durst for many years shortly after he met him shortly
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  Speaker 1: after Kathy disappeared, and so he knew Durst personally for
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  Speaker 1: about a decade and got to know him very well,
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  Speaker 1: and believes that Durst is the wealthiest serial killer in
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  Speaker 1: American history. He believes he not only killed Kathy Durst,
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  Speaker 1: but also Susan Burman and this college student, lam Shol
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  Speaker 1: as well as he believes there are several others. So
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  Speaker 1: that's why there's a silhouette back at the last last
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  Speaker 1: one that he dedicates it too, because nobody knows how
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  Speaker 1: many people this guy has murdered. Your book just came
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  Speaker 1: out in October. I got it on Amazon and am
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  Speaker 1: reading it on Kendall. And that's the first thing that
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  Speaker 1: struck me when I looked at it, was that silhouette
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  Speaker 1: and how many murder victims this book is dedicated to.
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  Speaker 1: I noticed in chapter three Getting to Know Bobby, you
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  Speaker 1: right that Susan Burman was worried about the friend dealing
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  Speaker 1: with Durst, and that he was worried that Durst may
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  Speaker 1: kill her one day for knowing too much. Now, right
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  Speaker 1: there at the beginning in your chapter three Getting to
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  Speaker 1: Know Bobby, I found it very telling that even while
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  Speaker 1: Susan Burman was alive, she expressed some degree of fear
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  Speaker 1: about people dealing with Durst. Explain that Gary, well, actually
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  Speaker 1: when they first met, they literally this guy still literally
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  Speaker 1: bumped into Durst in Manhattan and spilled the soda on him.
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  Speaker 1: Durst with was with Susan Burman at the time, and
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  Speaker 1: they got into an altercation, and they nearly got into
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  Speaker 1: a pretty serious fight, and Susan Burman helped break up
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  Speaker 1: the fight with another friend of Steals, and at that
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  Speaker 1: point Susan said to him, Uh, still, uh, he's you know,
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  Speaker 1: explained who Robert was. He's a very rich guy, and
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  Speaker 1: his wife was recently murdered, and still and there looked
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  Speaker 1: at her and glared at her, because at that point
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  Speaker 1: Kathy Durst was just a missing person. So right there,
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  Speaker 1: from that initial blunder, she corrected herself and very quickly
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  Speaker 1: and said, oh, I mean that she's missing, but we
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  Speaker 1: feared that she's dead. But she always apparently feared Durst,
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  Speaker 1: and eventually I think that fear was proven true. You know,
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  Speaker 1: it's interesting. Don't say this to you, Ray, Ray, due
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  Speaker 1: to Tay joining me, Ray, you can't really talk about
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  Speaker 1: the murder of Susan Burman, Robert Durst's best friend, without
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  Speaker 1: talking about the disappearance of his wife, his young wife, Kathy.
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  Speaker 1: And I learned prosecuting so many murders in inter city
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  Speaker 1: Atlanta that when you start, it's like a ball of yarn.
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  Speaker 1: Once you start unraveling it and it finally gets all
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  Speaker 1: straightened out, one murder is very often connected to another
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  Speaker 1: and another and another. And what this author Gary Greenberg
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  Speaker 1: of Sex and a Serial Killer, My Bizarre Times with
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  Speaker 1: Robert Durst, is saying is true, and I experienced it
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  Speaker 1: so many times Ray in different scenarios. You know, you
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  Speaker 1: remember the Red Oak triple homicide and that you know,
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  Speaker 1: just nearly destroyed me prosecuting that case, and one murder
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  Speaker 1: would lead to this dope ring, and that would lead
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  Speaker 1: to another murder and another murder. I think he's onto something,
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  Speaker 1: because once you start killing Ray, it's like in your blood,
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  Speaker 1: you can't quit, and you get away with it. Well,
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  Speaker 1: I think you and I both know that a majority
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  Speaker 1: of the violent crime committed is actually committed by a
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  Speaker 1: very small group of people, the same people who commit
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  Speaker 1: one crime after another and after another. And whether it's
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  Speaker 1: for the thrill or the challenge as some about you know,
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  Speaker 1: some theories maybe, or the proceeds, it's a lifestyle. And
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  Speaker 1: I agree with you. I think that the book, as
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  Speaker 1: I understand, I have not read it, so I've confessed
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  Speaker 1: to that, but gives the prosecution and the upcoming trial
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  Speaker 1: a roadmap and an effort that they will make to
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  Speaker 1: try to introduce what is commonly known as similar transactions
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  Speaker 1: evidence under the federal rules for four be adopted by
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  Speaker 1: almost all of the states or have a similar evidentiary
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  Speaker 1: rule where a prosecutor will try to show a plan,
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  Speaker 1: mode of scheme, opportunity. There's there's many different theories of
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  Speaker 1: under which you can enter similar transaction. Now, I will
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  Speaker 1: say that blood lust or thrill of the crime is
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  Speaker 1: generally not an acceptable pattern under the rules of evidence,
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  Speaker 1: But I think that's what the prosecution is going to
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  Speaker 1: try to show. More. Really, the show this is a
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  Speaker 1: series of violent acts, one of which is designed to
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  Speaker 1: cover up the prior Vinyl attact. And that's the case
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  Speaker 1: that we have here. Yeah, I guess to put it
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  Speaker 1: in a nutshell, I don't know how they can really
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  Speaker 1: try the Susan Burman case. And this is a woman
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  Speaker 1: that had been Durst a long time friend he had been.
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  Speaker 1: I think they've been exchanging money. Why is a good question?
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  Speaker 1: Was it hush money? But long story short, how can
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  Speaker 1: you try the Susan Burman case if your theory is
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  Speaker 1: she knew too much about Kathy Durst murder without bringing
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  Speaker 1: in Kathy Durst murder. If you don't believe he did it,
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  Speaker 1: take a listen to this slip he made while filming
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  Speaker 1: the Jenes. Why should we care about him? Well, I
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: think this is a kind of amazing, unique human story,
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: but it also is happening on a kind of operatic level.
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  Speaker 1: You know, you're dealing with a family that has a
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  Speaker 1: tremendous reach. They're quite a private family and yet enormously powerful.
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  Speaker 1: You know, these are these are there's not a family
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  Speaker 1: that's building a local apartment building. They're building the Bank
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  Speaker 1: of America Tower, the Condon Nas Building, the Freedom Tower
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  Speaker 1: on the side of the World Trade Center. So it's
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  Speaker 1: an important family and it's an important and unusual story.
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  Speaker 1: You very seldom have somebody who's been accused of this
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  Speaker 1: kind of series of grizzly crimes who's also the scion
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  Speaker 1: of this enormously powerful family. You are hearing from Minnie
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  Speaker 1: would say, now disgraced. But a renowned interview where that's
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  Speaker 1: Charlie Rose and he's talking a little bit about Robert
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  Speaker 1: Durst's family, multi multi millionaires. Exactly who are they, Robin Malinsky,
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  Speaker 1: they are the Durst family. You know, there's rich and
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  Speaker 1: then there's you know, uber rich, really really rich billionaires
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  Speaker 1: who build all these buildings in Manhattan. And he was
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  Speaker 1: one of five kids, but he was the black sheep
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  Speaker 1: of the family. I mean they even built that were
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  Speaker 1: responsible for the Freedom Tower build on the World Trade
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  Speaker 1: Center side at ground zero, and so he had tons
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  Speaker 1: of money. You know, you talked about some of the money,
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  Speaker 1: the banking transactions. There was fifty thousand dollars twenty five
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  Speaker 1: thousand dollars, two payments, two checks that went into Susan
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: Burman's bank account. And there are many people that believe that,
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: you know that she was kind of like down on
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: her financial luck in later years of her life. She
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: was the daughter of a mob boss, grew up in
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: Vegas around all these mob characters, but kind of fell
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: on hard times, and there are many people that think
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: that he was giving her the money to keep her quiet. Well,
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: this is what we know now. Prosecutors in LA's murder
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: case against New York real estate millionaire Robert Durst want
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  Speaker 1: the victim's words to come out in court, Susan Burman,
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  Speaker 1: and they have filed about four hundred pages of documents
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  Speaker 1: to argue statements Burman made to all of her friends
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  Speaker 1: just before she was killed should be allowed in to
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  Speaker 1: help prove Durst murdered her to silence what she knew
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: about Kathy's first wife disappearance. Dured so many unusual factors
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: surrounding Kathy's disappearance. I remember a rug went missing from
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: their home. He had gone out in a chartered plane.
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: He was a pilot. Her body is never going to
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: be found. I can tell you that much right now.
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  Speaker 1: He was the last one known to be with her.
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: Someone faked a call to her medical school the following
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: morning saying that she wouldn't be there for classes. It's
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  Speaker 1: just such a trail, and at the time he was
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: so rich and so well regarded that the local district
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: attorney neither then nor later in Westchester County ever prosecuted.
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: So does that leave us What are some of the
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: statements she made? Why does the prosecution want them to
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: come in to rage you, to chase really hard. I've
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: done it myself to get in words from a dead
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: murder victim. Very often you have to jump through a
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: lot of legal hurdles. They can either be deathbed statement
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: like Ray Carruth did this to me. We just heard
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: about that in the murder of Sharika Adams. Very often
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: you can get in dying declarations, but more other than
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  Speaker 1: that rate, sometimes it's hard to get in what the
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: murder victim said. Yeah, this is a classic law school
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: what is hearsay discussion? Hearsay, of course, as a statement
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: made by somebody who's not going to come to court
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: and therefore can't be cross examined by in this case,
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: the criminal defendant, who has constitutional rights to face their
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: accuser and have a thorough, in sifting cross examination of
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: the person that made such a statement. There are many
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: exceptions to the hearsay rule, and you've given several of them.
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: The dying declaration. Why because on a dying declaration the
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: theory of law is on your deathbed, you're not really
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: thinking about lying. Well the last you're right? What about
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: this statement? Ray? What about this? Susan Burman allegedly told
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: a lot of her friends I just won that the
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: real estate tycoon Robert Durst had admitted to her he
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: killed Kathleen Kathy Durst, who was, as you know, a
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: medical student when she just vanished into thin air. She's
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: never been seen again. Her body has never been found.
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: She was officially declared dead. Just recently. She told other friends,
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: including a Saturday Night Live cast member Lorraine Newman, that
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: she was the one that provided alibis for her good
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: friend Robert Durst. You don't think he wanted her a dead.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: What can you tell me to you, Robin will Lensky
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: about matching handwriting in green ink? Well, to me, the
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: most compelling evidence in the Susan Burman case, the most
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: interesting nugget to me is after her murder, there was
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: a letter they call it the cadaver letter, that was
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: sent to the police department in Beverly Hills. And the
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: word Beverly is spelled incorrectly e V E R L
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: E y on the envelope. And then investigators found in
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: Burman's house letters that Durst also used to send to
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: Susan where where from wherever he was from, and Beverly
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: is also spelled incorrectly. The handwriting is identical. Nancy, Okay,
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: hold on, this reminds me Karen Smith. You're the forensics
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: expert of a bank robbery. I tried many years ago,
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: my first bank robbery prosecution. And Karen Smith, the perp wrote,
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: and my children that love to hear this story, don't
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: touch the alama apostrophe. This is a Roby translation. Don't
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: touch the alarm. This is a robbery. And he had
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: obviously heard about punctuation, but didn't really know what it was,
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: so throughout the don't touch the alram this is a roby.
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  Speaker 1: There were apostrophes and commas and periods just all through it.
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: And it's a long story, but I found a witness
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  Speaker 1: in the Fulton County Jail that had been his roommate.
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: By the time I got him to give a handwriting sample,
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: he did the same thing. He was dyslexic. Don't touch
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: the al ram. This is a roby. He would reverse
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: letters and he sprinkled punctuation marks all the way through
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: his handwriting sample, even writing my name is X. So
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: what she's saying about repeatedly misspelling the same word in
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: the same way and handwriting analysis, that is a science now,
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: not just an art. Karen Smith, Absolutely, it's a science
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: question documented palysis is going to be really important in
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: this trial. And it's not just the misspelling, although that
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: is very compelling, especially putting an E before the yon, Beverly.
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: It's also going to deal with the type of ink,
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: as you've indicated, it's green ink that's really super unusual.
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: Also the pressure, the slant, the size, the way the
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  Speaker 1: letters are shaped. They can do comparisons almost like a fingerprint,
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  Speaker 1: and they can show that the handwriting is either included, excluded,
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: or cannot be determined. Those are the three determinations that
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: question document examiners make. And in this case, if it's included,
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: he's going to have to explain that, Oh no, it's
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: not Santa, it's Nancy Grace. Are you trying to find
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• 22:46
  Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. Durst was already serving a seven year
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: prison term for a weapon's charge out of Louisiana when
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: he was moved to La to face the Burman murder.
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: Chart years earlier, he to fine in Harris County for
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: urinating on candy at a CBS in Rice Village. Okay,
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: let's just stop right there. To Gary Greenberg, co author
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: of Sex and the Serial Killer, My Bizarre Times with
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: Robert Durst, What did I just hear? This is a guy,
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: an heir to a real estate fortune, millions and millions
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: of dollars at his disposal, Gary Greenberg, How did he
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: end up dressed like a woman in a convenience store?
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: Did I just hear urinating on candy? I don't know.
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: You know, the guy is very strange and has done
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: a lot of strange things in his time. I think
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: it's pretty remarkable that he actually confessed to shooting and
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: dismembering his neighbor Mars Black and got off basically on
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: a tampering with evidence charge. So it's hard to believe
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: that he'll be convicted for Berman's murder too. I hope
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: he is, because I believe he's guilty, And in fact,
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: William Steele says at one point they had a meeting
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: in Manalapan where Durst tried to get still to either
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: kill Burman or to arrange the habit killed. Isn't it
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: another coincidence? To Gary Greenberg, who author of Sex and
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: the Serial Killer, My Bizarre Times with the Robert Durst.
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: I got it on Amazon and read it through Kendall.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: It's just so much easier for me to do that
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: than carrying around a book, Gary, Your book is largely
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: dedicated to the recollections and the memoir of a friend
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: of yours who spent a lot of time with Robert Durst.
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: Based on what you've learned, why do you believe he
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: is guilty in the murder of Susan berman Well. I
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: like I was just explaining he had a relationship with Durst.
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: Would pay this guy Steal to use his apartment in
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: Brooklyn in the nineteen eighties and early nineties to bring
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: prostitutes over to have fetish and drug fueled sex with them.
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: And some of those prostitutes, he later found out he
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: saw pictures, still saw pictures that Durst had shown him.
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: Some of these prostitutes bound and gagged, potentially some of
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: them even looked dead. This guy Steell wasn't sure whether
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: Durst was actually doing these things or just an eccentric
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: multi millionaire who could afford to states and stuff to
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: shock people. But all along Durst was trying to pull
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: this guy Steel into his demented world, and probably fortunately
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: for Steel, he ended up in prison. He's a jewel
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: thief or was a jewel thief and ended up in prison.
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: But he had a lot of evidence that he had
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: collected over the years. It was times with Durst, including
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: tapes and including a satchel that Durst left with him
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: that had tools of a serial killer trade. It had
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: handcuffs that had restraints, duct tape, even had luminol in
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: a black light, which is used for cleaning up blood
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: in these satchels. Unfortunately, the satchels while Steel was incarcerated
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: or lost and nobody knows where they are, he still
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: believes he might have some tapes. So there might be
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: some tapes around, but whether they would be admissible in
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: quarter or not as nobody knows. Let me ask you
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: about your chapter eleven called an outing with Kathy an
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: outing with Kathy. Explain the title to chapter eleven. Why
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: do you call it an outing with Kathy? Oh? One day,
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: Durst comes over to Steele's place with an old, beat
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: up suitcase and he's claiming that Kathy's remains are in
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: the suitcase. Steele was so horrified for this whole thing,
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: he didn't want anything to do with it. He told
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: him to put the case away. But Durst had told Steel, yeah,
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: sometimes I like to take her out. So that's that's
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: the story behind that. You know, what is disturbing on
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: so many levels with what Gary Greenberg is saying, Ray
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: Ju to Chay almost everything that Gary just told us
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: about while I completely believe it that will never come
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: into court. The rules of evidence will stop all of
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: that from coming into court. You know it, I know it,
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: and I hate it, but it's true. The jury will
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: never hear all that. And that's why I'm sure mister
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: Durst is going to trial. His lawyers have gone through
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: this methodically with them about what evidence they believe will
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: come in and what will not come in. And they're good,
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: real good lawyers, and they've got real good assets and researchers.
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: And of course the state is not going to give
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: him a plea bargain that lets him go out at
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: age seventy five back on probation. So this is a
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: case where it's going to trial. I think it's gonna
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: be an exciting trial. I think for want to be
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: lawyers or would be young lawyers to watch good prosecutors
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: and good criminal defense lawyers battle out these various issues
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: of evidence. I think it's fascinating. I'm fascinated by it. Well,
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: you know, I hear you, but you sound like you're
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: examining a bug or a dead frog in biology class,
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: and you're just fascinated by the ins and outcing the
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: evidentiary twist. And turns. I hear you, but I don't
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: see it like that. I see it as Kathy Durst
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: was murdered by Robert Durst. He was rich, influential, and
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: Westchester County District attorneys never prosecuted him. Number one Maurice Black,
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: seventy year old neighbor was murdered and decapitated. He admitted
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: he did it and still walked free. All right, now
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: we've got Susan Burman dead. Susan Burman was murdered just
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: before she spoke to police. And I noticed in your
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: chapter thirteen that you titled Gary Greenberg a normal conversation.
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: You start off talking about your friend burying with Durst,
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: burying a dog's body parts. But what fascinated me in
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: that you talk about bleach in the apartment and the
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: black light and luminol being hidden away for Durst, and
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: about how he has come up Durst with a perfect plan.
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: You talk about a girl that had quote too much
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: dirt on Durst. She knew about the girl he Durst
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: had killed in Vermont and was making financial demands that
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: kept increasing, that there was no end to it. It
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: was infuriating Robert Durst that he had made a quote
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: as you write, Gary Greenberg, and I'm quoting from your
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: chapter thirteen, the perfect plan because she had been cheating
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: on him and using coke. I assume we're talking about Kathy.
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: It would look like someone else may have done it,
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: or she ran off with another man. And Durst was
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: very proud of himself that his plan had worked out
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: so well for so long that she Kathy just vanished
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: into thin air, another one of a million unsolved murder mysteries.
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: And Durst also explained how Susan Burman helped him with
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: cover stories, even posing as Cathy to call in sick
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: to medical school. As a matter of fact, what is
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: written in Sex and the Serial Killer talking about Robert
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: Durst is exactly what California prosecutors are arguing at trial.
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: Joining me Robin Willinski, Crime Online dot Com investigative reporter
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: Gary Greenberg, author Raymond Judiche, defense attorney, renown forensics expert
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: Karen Smith. Karen Smith, the difficulty is right now we're
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: trying to go forward to the state is in the
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: prosecution for the murder of Susan Burman. Karen, You have
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: studied and examined the case so carefully. What evidence do
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: they have that Durst murdered his friend Susan Burman because
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: she was his cover, and the Kathy Durst murder his wife.
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: The forensics is lacking. I'm not gonna lie. You're dealing
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: with a single gunshot wound to the back of the head,
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: execution execution style. You know, if you have a projectile.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: There may be some stipplings, some powder stippling on her
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: head depending on how far the muzzle was away when
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: the bullet was fired. And that's it. Defense attorneys have
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: said there's no DNA and no finger instant link Robert
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: Durst to this crime scene. It's not to say that
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: there wasn't forensics, but at this point there's really not
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: a lot. They're gonna have to go back and look
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: at his movements. They're gonna have to find out where
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: he was on what date. I don't know if there
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: were any witnesses that may have saw him coming or going,
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: maybe in a taxi cab. Who knows at this point,
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: but the forensics are going to be difficult for the prosecution,
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: that's for sure. Well, we know that there have been
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: a series of pre trial hearings Ray Ray jut Chay
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: and witnesses are stating that despite her being close friends
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: with Durst, it's like being having a tiger by the tail.
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: You can't hold on and you can't let go. Either way,
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: you're gonna get bit. That she feared him and told
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: many of them that if anything ever happened to her,
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: he would be responsible. I remember in a murder trial,
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: a particular murder trial I tried, and you well remember this, Ray,
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: The victim was a piano teacher like my mother, and
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: the husband was a millionaire like Durst. And she told
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: her friends that she had an emergency key that she
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: carried in her pocketbook, and she gave a key to
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: cars and homes to her friends in case her husband
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: tried to kill her. That I was precluded from bringing
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: that into evidence. The jury never heard that, Ray. That's
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: what I'm worried about in Susan Burman murder case, that
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: the jury will never end that she told here that
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: she told so many friends if I end up dead,
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: he did it, and sure enough there's no alibi for him.
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: At the time of her murder on Christmas Eve, she
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: ends up shot execution style in the back of the head.
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: Somebody crept up on her she was sitting at her
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: home just before she's supposed to speak to the authorities
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: about Kathy's murder. I think your fingers on the pulse
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: of what the prostitution must do to get a conviction
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: in this case, which is to set up the all
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: of this quote unquote evidence. Some's going to come in,
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: some's not going to come in, to set up how
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: Durst had boxed her in, as you said, tiger by
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: the tail, where she felt that she had to both
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: comply with his needs and his demands, and yet she
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: feared for her life. To set that up. So that
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: is the motive, that is the plan, the scheme. It's
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: going to be swinging for the fences for the prosecution.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: If this case had happened in the last few years,
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: we would have cell phone pings and luminoll and blood
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: splatter and so much more DNA evidence, where as was
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: just pointed out, you know, the science has just become
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: so Nancy. I think about some of the cases that
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: you tried back in the nineties where it was all
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: he said, she said, you were putting. I think actually
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: was a little more trial lawyer, and that goes on
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: now because now we all rely so much on the
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: experts and the science and the folks from the crime lab,
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: and a little less personal persuasion by the lawyers. But nonetheless,
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: if you those cases have been prosecuted today, they would
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: end up in Many of those would end up in
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: plea bargains before trial because you would have so much
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: evidence that the text messages and the trail of emails
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: and videotape from where you can follow a person as
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: they literally walked from the tip of Manhattan all the
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: way up the Central Park on a thousand different video cameras,
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: and I can vouch for that. It's not really high
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: tech ray. I will never forget I had taken the
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: children to go skating at Rockefeller Center. Okay, when I
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: got out of the cab, I immediately realized my cell
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: phone with all the Christmas photos were on it, and
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: I could track the darn thing. And I'm not paying it.
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: I don't have a sting ray from the NYPD. And
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: I could see it driving away and we called it,
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: and we called it, and we called it. I could
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: see exactly where it went all over Manhattan until bam,
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: it disappeared, and I nearly died because you know how
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: I am about my photo albums of the t ends.
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: All right, so yes, and it's not even hard to do.
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: Oh what, I would give him my eye teeth to
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: have that technology when I was just begging juries to
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: blaze getting vicked. You're right, we don't have that. What
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: we have, like you said, swinging for the fences are people. Now.
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: There's one guy, Ray. His name is Nathan Nick Chavin,
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: and he was a friend of Durst and Burman and man,
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: did he drop a stink bomb in the courtroom for
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: the defense anyway? And a preach while hearing he testifies
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: under oath, Durst admitted to him after a booze soaked
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: dinner in New York that he Durst killed Burman, and
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: he said Durst stated, I had to. It was her
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: and me. I had no choice, all right. So that's
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: the way he saw it. But the evidence, man, if
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: he really he really covered it up, Ray, it's gonna
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: be hard. And what's the cross of that witness, sir?
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: Let me get this straight. You were both drunk from
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: a booze vest is that right? When you think you
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: heard this statement twenty odd years and yeah, it's a
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: good case to go to trial on for the defense
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: for so many reasons. Now, as our author has pointed out,
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: you know, if I was on the defense team, I
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: just might give mister Steele a subpoena and bring him
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: the court and let him ramble on about these the
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: body in the suitcase and we did you ever see it? No?
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: And you're an author and you made money off of
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: this book. I don't know. I don't know if that
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: helps the prosecution or might hinder it. And one last thing, Nancy,
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: jurors today, in two thousand and eighteen, we used to
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: play well, where's the fingerprint game? And you know that
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: criminal defense lawyers, and you might get a juror says,
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: how come there're no fingerprints in a DUI case? But
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: nowadays the jurors expect the prosecution to bring forth scientific
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: technological evidence. They expect that PowerPoint presentation, and the prosecution
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: is going to have to really pick a good jury
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: that can focus on, Hey, we don't have all this
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: stuff because it wasn't available way back when, and I
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: think that's going to be a real challenge. You know what,
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: then let's find out what the evidence is, because you're right,
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: they want that CSI moment that they see on TV.
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: They think that that's real, Robin Willinski, it ain't real,
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: all right, That's not the real world what you see
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: on TV. But that's what gerrars are expecting. So in
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: a nutshell, Robin, what is the evidence in the Susan
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: Burman case? To me, it's I think it's very easy
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: to connect to Dotson. I do agree that the CSI
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: factor is definitely a factor at these trials. We saw
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: it in the Casey Anthony trial, where you know, they
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: wanted to hear how Casey killed her daughter. In this case, though,
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: I think there's a few things that The first is
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: the Westchester County District Attorney Janine Pierro had reopened the
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: Durst case the disappearance when she first became the DA,
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: and she sends her investigators out to California and they
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: find Susan Burman. Yeah, and they find her dead. So
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: I think that Durst knew about it. The timing is
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: very suspicious, and he gets rid of her before she
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: tells the whole story. Then you have the cadaver letter. Again,
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: this is a letter that the Beverly is spelled incorrectly.
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: Letters that Durst sent to Susan over the years also said,
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: Beverly spelled incorrectly to me, the smoking gun the CSI
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: moment is the green ink. He was very eccentric, Durst.
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: He used green ink in this note to the police.
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: There were green pens found at all his residences over
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: the years. Everyone knew he always wrote in green ink.
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: In the Jinks show, the producers show him that the
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: copies of the two letters, and he can't even tell
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: the difference in his own words, Oh is this one?
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: Did you write this one? Did you write that one? No?
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: He can't even differentiate because the handwriting is the same.
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: So I think that there's there's a lot there's a
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: lot of grapes on the vine here, and I think
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: that they can't if they connect the dots properly. I mean,
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: he definitely, I think did it. Oh and one last thing,
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: man say when the police come in, when you shoot
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: someone in the back of the head and the body
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: slumps over, Well, somebody who cared for this woman took
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: the body and put it in a different way, because
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: you could see that. You know, when someone touches the
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: body afterward and moves it, it's almost like a loving gesture.
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: And I think that that's very suspicious If someone was
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: coming in there just to kill Susan, bam, steal her watch,
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: steal her money, steal her purse and leave. Who's rearranging
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: the body in a loving gentle manner? Yeah, you know what,
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: A random burglar or robber would not take time to
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: stage the scene. That's like statistically proven. Robert Durst, the
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: multi millionaire real estate air is accused of shooting Susan
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: Burman in the head at her Beverly Hills home Christmas Eve,
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: just hours before she was scheduled to speak with the
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: police about the disappearance of Durst's first wife, Kathy. We
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: wait for justice to unfold. Fancy Grace crime story signing
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: off goodbye friend,