Latest / Mama Making Podcast / Thomai Roi | Arguably Feral: Three Burnouts, a Divorce, and Finally Building the Life She Actually Wanted

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Thomai Roi | Arguably Feral: Three Burnouts, a Divorce, and Finally Building the Life She Actually Wanted · Mama Making Podcast

• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to the Mama Making Podcast, where we share stories of moms making impact in their own lives and in the world around them.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Jessica, and each week I sit down with women who are building businesses, leading communities, shaping culture, and redefining what success looks like inside of motherhood.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: Because motherhood does not have to stop your ambition, it can transform it.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Now let's get into it.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: Hello everyone, and welcome to the Mama Making Podcast.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Jessica.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: If you're new, welcome.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: If you're not new, then welcome back.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: Today I am so excited to have So May Roy on the podcast.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: She is the founder of Arguably Feral Women, a coaching practice for high-achieving women who have done everything right on paper and still feel like strangers to themselves.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: A former pharmacist or an entrepreneur, she has navigated three burnouts, three shuttered businesses, divorce, remarriage, and raising a family, and built her most successful venture on the other side of it all.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: Her work helps women tell the truth about what's no longer working for them and taking grounded action towards the life they're actually meant to live.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so excited to have you.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: This is awesome.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so tell us a little bit more about you, who you are, where you're from, whatever you're comfortable sharing.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: So, like I said, my name is Phil Mae.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a pharmacist by trade.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: You did a great job with the intro.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: You covered it all.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, what else can I possibly say?
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: So I am a mom of two, well, three, two biological three.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: We have a blended family right now, remarried.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_02: And then you said it exactly right.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: I help women really remember who they always were before life got in the way and we lost ourselves in all of the roles of motherhood and being a partner and being all the things that we think we should be.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: And it can really lead us down a path and align us with a life where we suddenly look up and we're like, what is this?
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: How did I get here?
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_02: Who am I?
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: Who do I think I am?
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: All of those questions.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: I I also specialize really in um women going through divorce.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: I'm also a divorce doula.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: So that's something that's very near and dear to my heart.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: Regularly parenting, single momhood, head of the household is how I like to put it.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_02: But um, yeah, that's where I that's where I live.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: That's where my work is.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's amazing.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I think the best place to start would be chronologically, how this all unfolded.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: Let's start at the beginning.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: Where where did your journey begin?
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_02: Well, okay.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_02: Another round.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: I'm 41 now.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_02: And gosh, this starts at the beginning of time.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: We we cultivate and accumulate so much identity residue throughout childhood, and who we look up to, and who we want to feel safe around, and who we love, and who we admire, and all those things.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like, of course, I had a vision of like what I should be, like what I would want, what I should want, what life should look like to be happy, safe, accepted, all of those things.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: So I went to pharmacy school.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_02: I graduated as a pharmacist and I did pharmacy stuff for several years there after I practiced clinically.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: And um, I also got married quite young comparatively at the time.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: I was 24.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_02: And um I transitioned to being a stay-at-home mom, and I became this accidental entrepreneur during that time because I just started writing children's science books when I had my first, because it was simply just an activity for us to do together.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I missed the business side of things.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_02: When I was practicing, I had transitioned to uh corporate and I did a lot of their piloting and product management work there and I really loved it and I really missed it.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: I missed that like intellectual stimulations.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_02: Became a stay-at-home mom, became an accidental entrepreneur, and then through the next gosh, decade, I found myself over and over realizing the goals that I had and have, what excites me, what didn't, and um, you know, the person that I was with, we had a misalignment on those goals over time.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: It unfolded.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_02: And that's not to put anyone down, that's just simply growing and knowing yourself.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_02: We got married so young.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm not here to say it's a bad person, you just wasn't my person.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: And it took me so long to really reflect on myself and say, what do I want?
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: And who am I?
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: And is this it?
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: And so um at that time, that was really that experience that truly pushed me into the work that I'm doing with around women's identities and then further with women going through divorce, particularly moms, because it was just such a critical, crucial core time in my life where I really flipped the proverbial table on everything that I knew and understood had and built and and everything, and every single aspect, it was different, and there was so much fear that that was like the predominant thing.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: Fear and guilt, fear and guilt, fear and guilt of like I'm afraid to do this and I feel guilty for doing it.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_02: So I I I did the thing anyway, and I did and I got divorced, and I worked on myself for several years thereafter, and I remarried and we a little bit of tea.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_02: It's not though, it's just it happened to be how life unfolded.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's just kind of funny to talk to talk about it this way.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: My husband and I um we were working together on a company, and we both went through divorce, going through divorce, and we started talking more and more and more, and we both looked at each other.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: So he was the CEO and I was the COO, and we were both both with each other, and we were like, is this okay?
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_02: What are we doing?
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_02: Because at one point, too, I looked at him and I was like, you know, I'm going through a divorce, and things are happening in my personal life, and I don't want the quality of my work to suffer as we work together.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_02: So it was strictly professional, and then it bloomed and blossomed as I got to know myself more and realized what excited me and allowed myself to be surrounded by the people that were, you know, this stimulated intellectually and excited by entrepreneurship, and then also understood how to do all of that while raising children at the same time.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: And then during that period of time, our company hit a few revenue records, which were really nice.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I said to myself, gosh, I would just, I just want all women to feel this way.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: In whatever stage, they don't have to go through divorce to feel this way, but in the event they did, you know, it is truly like a rebirthing.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's more of like a remembering of who you were before you got all the layers of life piled on top of you.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's why I'm really inspired and excited to to do what I do.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: And here I am.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's amazing.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: So tell me, I think I think what is so like interesting to me about your story is the idea that you were like post post-original career, post-divorce, post-early motherhood.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I think no matter where you go in your motherhood journey, at some point we are all feeling those fear and guilt and like loss of identity.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: I think that there is this time frame in each like major part of motherhood that you're like, wait a second, who am I?
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: What do I like?
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: What do I think about myself?
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: Who am I?
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we think a lot about early motherhood, and which is absolutely valid, you're becoming a whole new.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we focus on this early motherhood portion because it is so poignant.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we forget that, like after the kids are in school and after you've made a work transition and are starting to figure out what fuels you and what feels right for you, it's maybe a little altering to be like, wait a second, this isn't who I thought I was gonna be.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: This is so different.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: How would you compare early motherhood to this time frame where you were doing real really well in your career post-divorce, kind of found your thing?
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: How would you compare those two time frames?
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my goodness.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: My personal experience was jarring.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_02: And so for anyone listening, your experiences may vary.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: However, my personal experience was wildly jarring, I think, because of just a lot of factors that I was going through.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_02: I definitely had postpartum depression, and I don't think it's the hill that I will die on is like, yes, it's a hormonal thing, and no, it's not just a hormonal thing.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_02: It definitely um has to do with a lot of the support and and what's around you and what you are, how you are feeling about yourself as a mother, as a person, as an individual.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: And really, I can't harp on enough like the support during that time.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_02: I gained a lot of weight.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_02: I was clinically obese from a BNI BMI standard, and I physically looked unrecognizable.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_02: I felt unrecognizable.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_02: I was doing something in life that I had never done before.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: I had a tiny little human and they just gave it to me, and they were like, here, figure it out.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, oh my god, okay, we're doing this, never done this before.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: And at the same time, you just have like a tremendous amount of fear and just I just love of for this little like squishy screaming thing, and you're like, oh my god, what do we do?
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's just terrifying all the way around.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I I you could say I sound cynical about it, but that's just that was that was it for me.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: And then on top of it, all I was stressed beyond my mind.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: I had my first real notable arthritis flare, and I didn't even know I had an inflammatory arthritis, and I had a flare um a few years after my first was born, and right after I had my second born, I had turned 30 two days prior, and I was bedridden for two years or two years, my god.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_02: No, two weeks, two weeks.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: But even then it was like my I had ignored myself and given away so much of myself for so long that my body screamed at me in the only way that it knew it could, like the only language that it had.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: And um, I went on antidepressants, I was on that for a decade.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_02: And then I can say after my divorce, I take it for what you will, but factually, I lost 30 pounds and I did a lot of the inner work, so I didn't really need the antidepressants, and I didn't need the anti-inflammatory medications anymore.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: Again, this is not condoning, get off all your meds or just get divorced and it'll stop everything.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's just a for me, my own personal experience of how stressed I was, and how that experience could have looked, should have looked, and just really giving myself a lot of grace for how it was, because in addition to myself, it's not to blame anyone, I just think we were all doing the best with the information we had and our own wiring and our own identities, and that's where I was, and yeah.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_02: And today, you know, compared to that, oh my gosh, my oldest just became a teenager like two months ago, which is insane.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and my my younger um is gonna turn nine.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_02: By the day of this recording, they're gonna turn nine in like two more weeks.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_02: And and you know, my stepdaughter is gosh, she is she's I met her when I think she was four or f no, just kidding, when she was maybe five.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_02: Either way, she's the age.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, she she is just getting older and I can't even keep track of it, honestly.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_02: So she's what, seven?
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: Turning seven in November.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: In any event, I feel like a completely I don't want to say a completely different person.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_02: I just feel like who I was before I cared about being popular in high school.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_02: Who I was before I felt like I, oh my god, my clock is ticking, I should get married.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_02: Before all of the the things that I felt like I needed to be or do or have.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_02: And um I it's very freeing.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's very, very freeing today compared to that.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's not easy, but it's it's very different and it's very freeing.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's amazing.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that there I totally identify with the um the huge identity loss of becoming a mom.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I had a ton of experience with kids.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like all of my jobs had been with kids as a teenager.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: My sister had three kids by the time I had my first.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: We have a ton of cut, like I had so much experience with like little kids, big kids.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, oh, and I had this podcast, and so I was already asking questions and knew more than the average person.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so I almost expected like I was just gonna breeze right through new motherhood, and so not the case.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's different when it's you.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I think it's so interesting.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: This time frame of life that's like your early 20s to your your late 30s, you that it's just such a compressed time of like if you're doing a typical route or not, it's get going to college, getting married, having kids, having a career, building a career, buying a home, but like doing all the things that are so compressed into one time frame that I feel like if you were not constantly changing after these um like life instances, it would be weird.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I think um we forget how much comes like we're just going through it, but we forget how much comes along with all of it.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: I know for me, when I first had my son, I was like, oh my God, I'm a totally different person.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: I felt like I was in survival mode for the first year.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: I also dealt with anxiety and depression.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: I also had OCD and wound up getting diagnosed with ADHD and because I just got to a point where I could not function.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: And motherhood and everything that came along with it just put me into survival mode.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so coming out of it after a year, I was like, I don't remember anything that happened.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a totally different person and I have no idea who I am.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and then for me came unexpected layoff, which I have talked about on the podcast, but it was so jarring to me that I didn't expect it.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then it was just my my um like fight or flight is like, okay, let's figure out the logistics.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: So it's um we have a new baby.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: Here's all the systems we need to put into place, here are all the things that I need to do to feel organized and on top of things.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: And then it's very typical for you to to do all of the that logistical work and then have all the emotion and all the processing flood on the back end.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that's totally what I experienced.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so for me, it was like logistically, this is how many months I have left in my job.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: This is my severance, this is the day that I need to have a new job and and recreate that income.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: And while I was going through that process of figuring out what was next before starting a business, I was like, maybe I'll just stay home.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, but I don't want to.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's what I've always wanted.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: But when I think about it, I'm like, that doesn't sound exciting to me.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: I was home with my son for a little while and I was like, I don't know that this is for me.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like I need to be doing something.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it was such an identity shift of being like, okay, I'm getting exactly what I want.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: I can be a stay-at-home mom now.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: And then I went on to do it and I was like, oh, this is not for me.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so figuring out I have been in nonprofit and project management for so long that I was like, I don't know who I am now.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: These things are not interesting to me.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know that I can I want to go sit back at a desk at a nine to five.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: What is next for me?
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that everybody goes through this like pivotal period between 20 and 30 where it's all so compressed and we come out on the other side a completely different person.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: I would love to hear your perspective of that time frame and how you took what you learned to start helping other women navigate that like post-divorce, post-early motherhood, probably a career change at some point.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: How did you kind of take what you learned and transform it into helping others?
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think this is an excellent question.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I love that you bring up that time period because I have strong feelings about it.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_02: So I, gosh, I think at first and foremost at its core, when I think about my own experience, I in some ways felt like I didn't have a choice, not because I was being forced into doing anything, but because the choice to do the right thing looked like this.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I had learned that somewhere.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I just accepted that.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't challenge it, I didn't like struggle against it.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: I'd never rebelled until I turned 40, which that in and of itself might have been an issue.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_02: So probably should have done that earlier.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: But um, you know, I think the thing that is, and it's kind of like it's so I'm gonna get on a soapbox here for a bit.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: So bear with me.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's kind of like you get a lot of societal pressure, just the way things are even structured.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I think it is frankly absurd that we need, if you're gonna go into higher education, one, it's gonna cost you more money than you even knew existed, and then you're gonna take out loans which can't be, you know, defaulted on ever.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: And they're just gonna follow you forever.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_02: And you gotta make that choice at 18, like at the very beginning of it.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: So there's that, and then there's gonna be some sort of a sunk cost fallacy because now you have all this debt, I think anyway, maybe that's just a very, again, simple way of looking at it.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_02: But like, yeah, and it's just like, and then you know, you gotta be like, okay, I'm investing in this, and I have to use these years to find something that I'm gonna hang my hat on until I'm 65 and a half or whatever it is, and then I can live.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: And it's just like, what?
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: So that's the weight of just entering into adulthood that we experience as a society.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: And if you don't go down that road, you're still gonna find something, whether it's a trade or something else.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_02: And if not, it's gonna just be really difficult.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, all the things that come with it.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe you take a gap year, and then you're like, okay, now it's time to do the thing.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: Whatever it is, that's where we start.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_02: And then it's like, okay, I'm I'm in my mid-20s, I have a career, this and that.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: And then we start to go into the game, okay.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_02: Well, what's the next thing?
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: I did that thing.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_02: What's the next thing on the checklist?
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_02: The next thing on the checklist is, well, I should have found someone.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_02: And there's no other time in my life that I'll ever be surrounded by so many people my age than in college.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: I should find someone with this similarly self-imposed interest of mine that I have to hang my hat on for the rest of my life.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_02: Let's do that.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_02: So we find someone in college.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_02: You can tell I have stronger feelings about this, and then we marry that person.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_02: I don't even think we're like neurologically fully developed at that point to make the decision.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm gonna choose no.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, I'm gonna choose what I do for the rest of my life and who I do it with for the rest of my life.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_02: And that's done by like, gosh, if you do that past 30, like, how many times have you been asked, are you seeing anyone right now?
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_02: Who are you with?
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_02: Is it serious?
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_02: Are you really getting another dog?
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what?
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_02: Who cares?
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_02: Who honestly cares?
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: Do what you want.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_02: So that's my thought on that.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I know you can make the argument of, like, well, if I always wanted children, then it's difficult later on in life.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_02: And yes, yes, all the things, yes.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_02: And there's no wrong way of doing it.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: There is just no wrong way of doing it.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: We in ourselves tell us what's right and wrong, good, bad, up, down, left, right.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_02: We make those decisions based on what we think it should look like and what we should do to have the thing to be the thing we need to be in life.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_02: And we're coming at that from the absolute wrong entrance.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_02: We need to come at it of like, I am already this, so I can do this if I ever want anything else in life.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: And it doesn't matter.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't matter what it looks like.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, just knowing that it's all a choice is just the number one thing I would say to any woman listening to this.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_02: It is all a choice, and it is all your choice.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_02: And my other shout out is to financial independence for women because that will literally afford you the choice for the rest of your life, any time in your life.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_02: So that's another thing that I harp on is like, yes, we have to pick a thing in a society and just make sure it makes you a lot of money.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_02: So if you just you need to like follow your passion, be happy, all of that.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_02: I say that tongue in cheek, of course, and just know how to provide for yourself, absolutely.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_02: So you can always have the luxury of choice.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: It should be a right, but unfortunately it's it's not.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't mean to go into a political conversation, that's not what I'm getting at at all.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's more of just like it is an incredible thing to not have to negotiate with your own well-being at some point in life, and you don't know if and when that'll happen.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: But if it does, and you find yourself in a situation where this life isn't working the way you wanted with this person or this career, you can change it.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_02: Those are my thoughts on that.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's the perfect place to talk a little bit about kind of building your life from the quote unquote right place.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think um when when we're building, like you're saying, a life that's like full of what society expects us to do and and what we think is the right next step, what that can kind of cost us.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you've talked about it a little bit as to being in a marriage that wasn't right for you or a career that you chose at 18.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: What has choosing, let me reel that back.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: What has building from the wrong place cost you?
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: And when you started to change to be more from an authentic place and from a place that was like empowering and inspiring and more in alignment with what you desired at that time, how did that kind of compare and what did that unfold like?
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's I love even how you phrased that.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_02: Because there are parts of it where I had to really explore for myself and what I even thought about those past parts of my life.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: So one of the things is you had said, building from a wrong place.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: I was all the work that I do now too with women, I say there is no wrong.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_02: There's no right.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: There's no wrong.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: There's just who you are being in that moment.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: And who you are being in that moment is like nearly 100% of the time just a cultivation of things you couldn't even like prevent it or predicted.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's just who you are.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_02: And you're doing your best with the information you had.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so to say that was wrong is just self-imposed shame constantly.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: I'm shaming.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_02: Like, sure, of course, we could have been like, oh man, if I did this 10 years ago, I would have been so much easier now.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_02: But like that's that's neither here nor there.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: Because if it was meant to happen, it would have and it didn't.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_02: So you are where you are, exactly where you need to be, in the sense of you working on the next thing in your life.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_02: And your life the way it looks today is perfectly aligned with who you were being.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I know this is gonna sound esoteric and all existential, but in truth, it when I think of back on my life, the person I was being before I got married absolutely attracted that partner that was frankly perfect for me in many.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_02: And that's not a place to say shaming anything, like, well, you did this to yourself.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_02: No, absolutely not.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't make anything right, it doesn't condone anything, it doesn't invalidate anything.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_02: But I need to be aware of what I was the accountability in it all.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_02: I never spoke up.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: They cut pieces off of me and traded it away to make sure everything everyone else was happy.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I did it from a place of love.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's not again not to shame.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_02: I can't say that enough because this work I struggled with so much.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_02: And on the on the I'm doing it wrong aspect.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: So the word wrong in general, and again, strong feelings around that.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_02: So compared to where I was then, I had to when I got divorced, it's not like I knew all of this.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's not like I was like, oh, I was being a totally different person this way and I should be this way instead.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: All I knew in deep down inside was that it just this not it, not this, not this.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I could either stay with this and accept the not this, or I could accept the not this and do something differently.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: And either way, it's just accepting the not this.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_02: And so what I did from that point was I started to look at myself and examine myself of like, what made that all happen?
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_02: How was I aligned?
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_02: That how was I being that allowed him to be how he was being, and how did this all escalate?
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_02: And what can I do now, being in this position to actively create the life that I want?
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like, okay, if it was not this, what do I actually want it to be?
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_02: Because we're so powerful, we don't even realize it that the way we act and the way we're being is all really reactive.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_02: We're all constantly thinking about the past and throwing it in front of us, and all we really need to do is just be present because all we have is today.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, well, how am I being today?
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_02: And what do I want the future to look like?
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_02: Well, how would I be if I wanted the future to look like that?
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_02: And it's a constant reevaluation over and over and over and over.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'd say, compared to who I was now, or who I was then versus who I am now, I can't say I'm any more or less opinionated as you know, virtue of this episode, because I am speaking a lot and I I think I just yelled a little bit ago.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_02: Can't help that.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_02: But I I I give myself a lot more grace for who I was, don't have as much self-consciousness.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's always a work in progress.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_02: I've allowed myself to start feeling angry, like internally, externally.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't rule anything, but I don't shame that either.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I just remind myself that it truly is all a choice.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: You could be highly intentional and just know it's a choice, and we're just gonna be doing our best.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: And life is gonna look like whatever life is gonna look like from that place.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: And as long as I'm acting from that place, then it is like what it is.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: There's no there's no right or wrong.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_02: There's no way this needs to look.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_02: We put so much pressure on us to be like, no, it needs to look that way, or else you're wrong.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, it's very I don't know if it's long-winded or not, but I hope that it's advice helps shares.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: Cool.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I I I definitely subscribe to the idea that the universe works how it's supposed to work, and the the position you're in is like a a teaching lesson for you, or a growth opportunity for you, or the option to exercise your your self-confidence and and make a bold decision or choose not to.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that we will always get to where we're supposed to be, and that the the choices that we make take us down different paths or routes, but what is there for us will be there for us.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I know it's again very like existential and like woo-woo, but I don't like it's I to say all of that to say, I agree that we put so much pressure on ourselves to make the right choice.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I know I am chronically guilty of that of being like, well, what's the right thing to do?
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I think if we remember that every decision has a consequence and uh a natural consequence, but if we have the idea that in the future we're going to get where we're meant to be and don't take every decision and every choice so deeply as a reflection of us or a whatever it might be, I think that we put so much pressure on ourselves to make the right choice and make the right decision and do the right thing and be the right person that I think if we just start to trust our gut a little bit more and make decisions that are like this feels good or this doesn't feel good, I'm gonna make a different choice.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think if we start to trust ourselves a little bit more, that's that's the biggest thing that I have found in post-motherhood is learning to trust my gut.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: And my gut is never wrong, if I'm being very honest.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: The the times that I trust myself and went with my gut was whether it was successful or not, it is something entirely different.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: But when I go with my gut, I can always trust that I've made the decision that's right for me in the moment.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I think as moms, we're so like intuitive to everyone else around us.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we really need to start being more in tune with ourselves.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm coming at that from a place of like actively teaching myself how to do that.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it goes along with what you're saying that like everything's a choice.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: We not to say if you if you find yourself in a position that is undesirable doesn't mean that you have chosen to put yourself in a bad situation.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: Again, we're not here to shame.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I think as women, going with our gut a little bit more and and making decisions on alignment and what feels authentic and and what truly feels like in our intuition right for that moment.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like you said, not taking our past experience and putting it ahead of us.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: I I think that I totally identify with what you're saying.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_02: But as I have an example of like just kind of on that point, you know, of trusting our gut and who we're being and really just like sitting into who we are as women and as mothers.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I guess a personal story that I'd love to share is um, and I still work through it today, and I and I bring this up because it is exactly this outside, and it's sunny outside.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_02: And you'd be like, okay, so it's a sunny day, great, right?
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, no, um, it's not great.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know if anyone, if you resonate with this or if anyone listening resonates with this, but I um I when I have my kids, so I should also say, prefacing this, is that now that I am remarried, even so, we co-parent across states.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: So he goes here, I go there.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_02: So when we have our children, we're very much single parenting it.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, and that's okay, but you know, it is what it is, and um, that's very challenging.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_02: And it can feel a lot.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_02: It can, it's whether you're with someone that doesn't support you or if you're alone, it feels the same, it's all on you.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's just a heavy weight.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_02: And so I remember um, you know, when even when I was married, I I was home with the kids, and I just felt like there was something inside of me where I was like, oh, it's a sunny day, they need to be outside.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_02: We need to do something.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_02: I need to make sure they're enjoying their childhood today.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_02: Come hell or high water, we're making this happen.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_02: And so there was just so much pressure to for on me, by me, to do that.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, that could I could have had receipts to be like, well, if you don't do it, then you're gonna hear it from so-and-so or this or that.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_02: Like, yeah, those those things were there too.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_02: And in some way, it was confirmed and influenced and all that stuff.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I say by me because I still carry that into today.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_02: I was working on a small business then, an entrepreneurial venture then, um, and I'm working on a business now, and I still feel the weight of like, oh my gosh, it's sunny, and I have them and they're home.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_02: I gotta do something with them, but then I also have all this work to do.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm gonna be a bad mom if I don't do this, but I'm gonna be a bad business person if I don't do that.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_02: And in order to do something with X, I have to take away from Y, and it's all sacrificing something everywhere, and I'm never gonna get anything done.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_02: So I really had to work on today in those sunny days.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of the times we think of like, oh, you're doing the work and you're just gonna like float up into this higher vibration of like sparkliness and glitter and soft light, and that's not at all how it is.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_02: It is walking into the uncomfortable and sitting with it.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_02: Because on a sunny day where I have my kids, I need to be aware of what I'm making that mean about me still.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, maybe I didn't feel supported at one point and it did weigh all on my shoulders, and I was told I was I'm gonna be this or I'm gonna be lacking in that, and some way I absorbed all of that.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_02: And that's not what's happening today.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_02: What's happening today in this moment is that I am a human and a mom caring for children and doing hard things, and that's why today feels hard, whether it's sunny or rainy or whatever it is.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_02: And the excess pressure is like this impending weight of all the things that need to take on, and that's not necessary either, because not everything needs to look like a Pinterest board.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes we just want to hang out on the couch, and it's enough to make them feel safe and loved by playing Minecraft together or having pancakes for dinner.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we don't need uh an organic homemade snack and a walk in the woods and a special craft.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like it can just be, and those things are awesome too, don't get me wrong, but they don't that doesn't define motherhood.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_02: What defines you as a mom is someone that provides a safe space for them and that makes them know they're loved unconditionally, that just they have those warm moments.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's a feeling that they have.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_02: Are they safe?
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_02: Are they well fed?
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_02: Are they closed?
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_02: Those things, and you could be like, well, that's the bare minimum.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, well, that's also what it takes to be a what it needs, what the children need, is what I'm trying to say.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_02: And anything on top of that is phenomenal and extra, but not every day is gonna look like that simply because you are doing the work of putting a roof over their heads.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_02: You are doing the work to make sure all of those other things are happening, and you don't need to guilt yourself that you're being bad because you're not doing those things.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_02: You're actively doing those things and just be okay for how you're moving the needle today.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_02: Today just might look like what today looks like.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so on a sunny day, you'd be you'd think I'd I'd be like, Oh yeah, sweet, bike rides and this and that.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm just like, oh my god, why?
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_02: And and that's okay.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm and I'm working on that.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: And if my kids listen to this episode in 10, 15 years, mom's doing her best, and you'll you'll get it when you have kids of your own.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_02: If you want kids of your own, totally your choice, voice, all about choice.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_02: And so, yeah, I just I'm that's a thing that I am actively working on.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it's a very real practice, and um, it comes up in sneaky ways too.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_02: I found anyway for myself, and that's why I wanted to to share that story.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I totally identify with that.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: Living in Chicago, we only get so many sunny days in a summer.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I definitely identify with that, and I think that's perfect.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: I love when guests share like personal stories of things that they're actively working on because we can talk like theory all day and and strategies and tools.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: The goal of this podcast is just to feel like someone else gets it, someone else is in a differ in the in a different country, in a different state, and in a different job and in a different planet, and you can still identify and gain some kind of inspiration from their story.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you for sharing that.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: I know it definitely uh hit home for me and it, I'm sure it will for others.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome, no problem.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: Well, tell us where um do you have anything coming up?
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: What's going on with you?
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um tell us what what's going on.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_02: So I, gosh, is just working on a lot of things.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_02: I have a website coming out.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure by the time this podcast is out, it'll be there.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_02: But I wish I could share that now, and I can't, unfortunately.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_02: But it's in the works.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I am on a variety of social media.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_02: I I think I'm the loudest running my mouth, the strongest on threads, I guess we could say.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_02: And so you'll you could find me there.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_02: Also Instagram.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_02: So Threads is Themaye Roy.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_02: Instagram is Thelmay Roy Official.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_02: I just started doing the TikTok.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_02: I I do have a podcast of my own called Arguably Feral Women.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it's all about the experiences women have, either solar episodes or myself, talking to guests.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_02: Similarly, or just sharing real stories and and um, you know, how that can look different than what is societally accepted or generationally done.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_02: And um And yeah, so I'm doing all of that and and then trying to get this proposal out for a book, and then I launched a community because we need more.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_02: So I I have this free community on school, and it is for women going through divorce, just given my own experience.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_02: I fully transparent, I it was the loneliest, most terrifying time of my life, and I never want anyone to feel that way.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_02: So I have a free community, and I'll share the link.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, anyone can check it out and join, and it's just to feel similarly seen and heard.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I do weekly live calls there with the group, so you can join me there more.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_02: I guess that's what I'm up to.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you so much for being on and sharing about your story and how you're helping other women and making an impact in their lives.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for having me.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_02: This is just wonderful.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_02: I so appreciate it.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_00: If this conversation resonated with you, I'd love for you to follow the podcast wherever you listen and share it with another mom building something meaningful.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: If you want deeper behind the scenes reflections that I don't share anywhere else, join my email list at themakingpodcast.com.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for being here, and I'll see you next time.