Latest / Books4Guys / He Quit His Career at 43 to Become a Bestselling Author | J.D. Barker

Transcript

He Quit His Career at 43 to Become a Bestselling Author | J.D. Barker · Books4Guys

• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, we we live on a little island off the coast of Portsmouth in New England now.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: We've been here since uh 2019.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: I've never, man, I've never really spent that much time up there.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: Where are you?
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm in Nashville.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: So, but I've always been like a southern guy.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: I've been in Texas, I've been in Atlanta, I've been in Nashville, I've been in Arkansas.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I've done a little bit of traveling, but I've really never been up in like the New England, Boston, uh, Vermont.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: I've not been anywhere up there before.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's beautiful.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: We've got a couple rental properties in Gatlingburg, so I like I like Tennessee too.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: But up here, like, you know, today it's I think 65 out.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's it's sunny, you know, like you, so you can hang out outside, you don't break a sweat.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's nice.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like being in Florida, we I lived down there for so long.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like you walk to the mailbox and you, you know, you have to use sunscreen and it's it's 200 degrees out and you're covered in sweat by the time you get there.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's horrible.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but up here it's nice.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: You look like you went swimming, you don't even have a pool.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's funny.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: Well, JD, man, I am so pumped to talk with you, man, because you've done I I was I was so happy to get introduced to you.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and just kind of to let you know why.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: This is, you know, obviously I've started Books for Guys a few years ago with just the purpose of encouraging more men uh and young men to read more and to get lost in good books, whether that be fiction books or nonfiction, whatever it may be.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I've really been challenging myself to get more into fiction reading over the last like 12 to 18 months, especially like suspense and thriller, and uh, that's just kind of stuff that keeps my personal attention.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then I got introduced to you, and I was like, holy cow, JD has some incredible books out there, and you've got, I mean, and I was looking at stuff too.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, they're transitioning into potential shows through like Sylvester Stallone, which I'm a big fan of, and all of that.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I was just like, holy crap, I get to talk to JD.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like, this is a this will be a great connection.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: You found a cool lane because you know like guys just don't talk about books.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like, we'll talk about sports, we talk about cars, we talk about you know, all these other things, but we never talk about books.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: I remember getting a phone call.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: I had a book that came out uh called a caller's game, and I got a phone call from my editor at one point, and he said, Well, we got some stats because I had like four or five books out at that point.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh he said, It looks like your readership is women 45 and over.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: So that's who they want, they wanted me to target.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: And and, you know, like when I do signings, when I do events, it's typically women in the audience unless they bring their significant other with them.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that's kind of how the book process works.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like a woman tends to discover me.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: She passes the book on to her husband or her boyfriend, and that's kind of how they they get into it.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but they're they're leading the charge there, and guys are just very quiet.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's so interesting, man.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: And it's funny.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: I I mean, I got this cre this platform got created because I was literally meeting with a guy and we we would talk about two things other than uh work, and that was either number one, sports, like you said, or we would talk about books.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: And uh this particular guy was like, dude, Chris, the ladies have all these wine and book clubs and all these like get togethers, and he's like, but like me and you talk books, but there's no clubs or places for us to go like talk with other men or get recommendations.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: And that's when he was like, dude, you should create something.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I was like, All right, books for guys, like let's just make it simple and and try to do something that way.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: And it's been it's been cool.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: And now I get to have conversations with individuals like yourself and so many other incredible people, um, and hopefully can spark more interest from from dudes, you know, to talk and see.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I think one of the things though I think that resonates, JD, and we'll get into this as we get going, but just the fact that I was as I got introduced to you, I already mentioned it, like the Sylvester Stallone connection with the production of maybe a book.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like I think a lot of cool shows that come from books, sometimes that leads men to maybe go and and read the actual series.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: But before we get to that, man, I would just love for our audience to get a chance to know you and just share a little bit about your story and just kind of like, man, how you got into writing and just how it progressed to a level that a lot of authors never get to.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, I'm sure sometimes you pinch yourself just just looking at what you're able to do in your space.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: But man, I would just love for you to share your story.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's it's weird.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's still it still doesn't feel real.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'll I'll give you the quick history.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I I grew up without TV in the house, but this was the 70s, so that doesn't mean much.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: There were only like three channels, nothing worth watching anyway.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and my mom used to drag us to the library, and we would get books like, you know, two, three times a week, and you know, we'd bring them back and they'd just swap them out all the time.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I was reading at a very early age, and I just I really got into it.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: I I read all the Hardy Boys and Nancy Drew mysteries, and then I moved on to like Charles Dickens and Mark Twain and the classics.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: But then I discovered Dracula, which turned me on to horror, and I found Stephen King.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: This kept going and going and going.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I just I devoured this stuff because I could get lost in it, you know, like it didn't matter what problems were going on, if you know my friends didn't want to hang out or whatever, like I could pick up a book and kind of get lost in that particular world for a little while.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: And that's, you know, that that feeling is just it's never gone away.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: I started writing at a very early age.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: I had a sister who's 15 months younger than me.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um so we used to play the library game.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: I would write up stories, I would staple them, I created a little library in my room and she would check them out and I would charge her late fees.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, so this you know started way, way back.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and my mom kind of encouraged it, but she always said writing is a fantastic hobby, but you can't make a living at it.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: You have to get a real job.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, so I did exactly that.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: I finished up high school, I went off to college, I got a degree in finance, and I ended up working in the financial world.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: But I would come home and I would work on books to stay sane.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of stumbled into a side hustle working as a book doctor and a ghostwriter.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so basically taking books from other people that were, you know, not quite there.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they were 70% there, but that, you know, the agents weren't signing them, something was wrong.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they would bring in somebody like me to fix those.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I did that at first for friends and other people that I knew and you know that just wanted to break into the that that field.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then word kind of spread of what I was doing to agents and editors, and I started getting hired by people like that.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like an editor would buy a book over a random house, you know, the book would have some kind of problem, like the guy just overwrote or, you know, the dialogue was terrible or whatever it was.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but they would bring me in as a hired gun to fix these books.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I was working in finance all day long.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: I was working at an investment banking firm at Palm Beach.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: I was their chief compliance officer at you know at the end of my career.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: Did that for 23 years, and I would come home at night and work on these other projects.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and over those 20-some years, I had six different books that hit the New York Times bestseller list that all came out with other people's names on the cover that I had essentially written, which gets old after a while.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: So number six hit up, and my wife pulled me aside and she said, Listen, I know you want to become a full-time author.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: Let's figure out how to make this happen.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but at this point, we were stuck, you know, because I had a good job, I had a big salary, we had the trappings of that.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: We had a, you know, a huge house, we had cars, we had a boat.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: Our monthly nut was somewhere between$10,000 and$15,000.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so I couldn't walk away from the job.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: We were stuck.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: So she came up with this crazy plan.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: We sold everything that we owned.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: And we bought a tiny little duplex in Pittsburgh for cash.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: We rented out one side to some tenants and we moved into the other side and basically lived off of savings and that little bit of rental income, you know, long enough for me to write that first book.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: That was 2014.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I've been at this for about 12, you know, almost 13 years now.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I just, you know, once you step on that roller coaster, I think it was Stephen King who said you've got a lifetime to write that first book and six months to write the next one.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: That is so true because you know, once I stepped on that roller coaster, there was no getting off.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: Dude, what a story.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: I love stories like this because number one, I love I love that the journey that you've been on is not one that a lot of people probably think about.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know, again, people see people who are successful in whatever they do in whatever industry, and it's hard for them to think about the path that got them there.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: They just see where you're at, what you've accomplished, must be nice.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: But a lot of people don't really understand there's always a story before that.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: And for you to have what a lot of people probably experienced a good life.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's it's hard to walk away because the security's there and you've got responsibilities to do this and that.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: How cool is it that you had a partner who was like, no, no, no, buddy, we're we're gonna make this happen.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like I see it in you, maybe more than you see it in yourself, and uh, we're gonna make this work.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: How how cool of a feeling was that to know your wife was like, hey man, I got your back.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: Let's do this.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, it was it was frankly, it was scary.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I was I was 43 at the time, so I was you know firmly ingrained in that.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I could have easily finished out the rest of my life working that job that I hated behind a desk.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: But she asked me, like, you know, just picture yourself at 80 years old sitting on a porch in a rocking chair.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: Are you gonna look back and regret anything?
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, the answer was yes.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like, if I didn't make a run for it, you know, then I would have regretted it.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: I I would have much rather, you know, like tried, fell on my face and failed or whatever, but had that in the rear view, knew that I I, you know, gave it that effort.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: But to actually not try at all, like that just didn't seem like an option.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, once we pulled that trigger, there was just there was no turning back.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like I had to make it work, or I had to go back to an you know another day job.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think we had about 18 months worth of savings saved up.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, it wasn't very a very long time to make everything go.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: But how cool is that too, though?
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: I like that perspective too, because I I hear people talk about this.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what's the worst that could happen if you step out and take the chance?
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: You're like, okay, I got 18 months.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: If it doesn't work, I can go back and work and do what I've been doing my whole time.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: But like to not or find something else, you know?
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, a lot of people like we we just we get stuck, we get comfortable.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's it's difficult to walk away from that.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I I I run into it all the time.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like I every time I go to the dentist, the woman who cleans my teeth, I've been seeing her for six years now.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: She loves to paint.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: She's always telling me how much she loves to paint.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: And every year she is, you know, she is still there working as a as a dental assistant instead of trying to make that happen.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you gotta get out there.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: You only get one life, so you gotta try and you know, grab that brass ring when it when it's in front of you.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: No, absolutely.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: JD, obviously, you know, you've been writing a long time.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, really the last, I guess, 12 years would be your kind of success time frame of putting your own work out there and seeing the progression of it.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: What are some because I I haven't written a book and you know, I take pride in in spotlighting other authors and other people who believe in reading and writing.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm kind of maybe I'll toy with it, I'm trying to figure it out, but I love learning about the process and just like the publishing aspect, the creativity part of it, the editing part of it.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: What are some things that do you have anything about about the process that you don't really enjoy?
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: Or do you love it all?
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like, do you love the writing and hate the editing, or is there a part of you that you're like, you know, there there is a piece that's not as enjoyable as like some of the others?
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean the the writing part is is the most fun.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm literally sitting at a desk making shit up for a living.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like it doesn't get any better than that.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: Editing reminds me of what I used to do, you know, as a book doctor.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: So you know, I'll finish up a book.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: I usually put it aside for a couple of weeks just to put a little distance between it.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: And then when I pick it up, I have to read it as a reader, you know, and start cutting the things that just don't work and adjusting, you know, this, taking this sentence out.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I I always liken it to like a good piece of steak before you throw it on the grill, you're like you're cutting the fat away, like you're getting into the leanest piece of meat before you cook it up.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: And that's essentially what you have to do with a book.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: But like I enjoy that.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, coming out of the business world, you know, where I saw people, you know, basically create companies out of nothing in investment banking, you know, they'd be at a bar and come up with an idea for a company, and two years later that company was going public on the exchange, and like I saw everything that happened in between.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: And at the end of the day, they were just selling a widget.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like it didn't matter if you know what that widget was.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so I take a step back and look at my own business.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm selling a widget too.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: It just happens to be a book.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I tend to approach it that that way.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: I look at everything in my business model, you know, branding is extremely important to me, um, you know, which is something most authors don't consider.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I I look at the audience, I look at who's buying, I look at, you know, more specifically who's not buying.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we were talking a little bit before we started recording.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I was I was told at one point my audience was women 45 and over by my editor, and he wanted me to write a book to target that specific group.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: So instead, I turned in a young adult book because my general thinking was I've already got women 45 and over.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: I need this group over here.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I wrote a book for this group over here and brought them into the fold.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: Now I've got that group and I've got women 45 and over.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I use the books as almost like a literary Pied Piper.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: I look for segments of the market that that aren't reading me currently, and I find a way to get them on board.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I'm not I'm not reinventing the wheel.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: I write a lot of books with James Patterson, who's been doing this for a very long time.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, he came out of the marketing, you know, world.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: He worked at one of the largest marketing firms in New York before he started writing books.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um so you know, he is very much into the the marketing aspect of it.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: Every commercial, every ad that they run, like he is all over all of that.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: And we've had just as many conversations on the phone about marketing and business as we have on the writing process.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I love the business side.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: And and most authors don't.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: I think you probably, if you talk to a lot of authors, you've probably run into that.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: They they love writing, they like the isolation of being all by themselves.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, for me at 11 o'clock in the morning, I have to stop the writing, I have to put on my business hat.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I turn on the internet, I don't even turn it on when I'm writing because I don't want that distraction.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: But when I turn it on, my inbox fills up with, you know, the agents that I've got to talk to, the business partners I have to talk to, interviews like this that I have to do, you know, the whole business side of it, the actual marketing aspect.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and I like that too.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like I'll I I spent time this morning going through my Facebook ads and reviewing all of them.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: I look at the ones that are working, the ones that aren't working, I try to figure out why these aren't working, you know, do some tweaks here and there.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: And if my stats are better next week than they were this week, you know, like I I like I take that little win and enjoy it.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: I I think as as you know, the more rounded you can be in in this particular field, the the better.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I've indie published and I've been traditionally published, and I currently have my own imprint at Simon and Schuster.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I've kind of covered all bases.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: But it doesn't matter where I land as a as an author, you know, on the publishing side, you know, I always have to think about all these different things.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: I've I've never allowed somebody else to think about it for me.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the big publishers can, you know, if they pay a lot of money for one of my books, I'll absolutely let them come up with a marketing plan.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: But the second I get that marketing plan, I poke holes in it.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: I look at what they're not doing, and I do something, you know, over here completely different to fill those gaps.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm I'm always working and I love it.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it seems like the trend seems to be, like from what I'm taking of what you're saying there, is like you do have to take the other parts of this very seriously if you want to get to the level of of what you're desiring to be at.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you just want to write a book, put it out there, and you don't really care what happens, you know, whatever.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: But if you do have aspirations of selling tons of books and maybe having an opportunity for it to become a be put on screen in some form or fashion, or be able to partner with another high-level author, like you do have to spend a lot of time learning how to market, learning how to sell, building relationships and networking.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it sounds like you do credit a lot of that to actually having the job you had before kind of set you up in in a good place for what you needed to do as you became more successful as an author.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, it's honestly it's across the board.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I I've been asked before what, you know, what would have happened if I had started publishing books back in my 20s.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: And the the truth is I don't think they would have hit as well because like I needed that 20-some years of a learning curve of working with those editors and agents and other people and fine-tuned, you know, fine-tuning other you know, books.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: And and like that was a big practice session for me.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: That that's where I really learned learned the skill set that I have today.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: And the business, like you just said, it came from working in investment banking.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: So like I've got this, you know, weird background that just kind of all came together in a very perfect storm for for what I'm doing today.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: And it's man, it's incredible.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: And again, I just love that story of it takes time.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, you can't just snap your ph in the world of automation and and immediate gratification.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of people still forget you got to put in the work and build the foundation and like just just chip away down the field.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: Don't think about the the touchdown.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like you'll get there, but chip away one first down at a time as you're building what you want.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we can't be reminded about that enough.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like, no one knows how long a journey is gonna last, but enjoy the journey part of it.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I talk to so many authors and they all have similar stories to me.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the the background is different, but but you know, very few of them actually write a book that just completely hits it out of the park, you know, you know, when they when they launch that debut.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: It just it rarely happens.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: And and honestly, when I talk to people where that does happen, I think they're in a more difficult position than the rest of us because you know they they have to follow that up, you know, and all of a sudden they've they're they're chasing that that particular title for the rest of their life.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: Their publisher is looking at the sales from that title, and like if their next book doesn't hit it, then you know, that's a problem, like all these different things.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, for me, just you know, I I've got 12 years now behind me and just talking to other authors, it's so much better to just build a solid foundation.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you have a book, you put it out, it does okay, it does great, it doesn't, you know, as long as it does well, you know, your next book hopefully does a little bit better, the next one does a little better than that, and you build a solid foundation across the board.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, your mailing list is building, your readership is building, you know, the contacts that you're making in the industry, all of that is building.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's so much better to do that over time than it is for it to happen overnight.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: I love that, man.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, talk about talk about your latest projects and what you got going on now, because you got you have a lot going on.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: You I believe, and I see the book behind you there, and I know you've got it's gonna be released in September, is that right?
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: September 22nd.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I've got a series.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, my second book was called The Fourth Monkey.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's about a serial killer in Chicago.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I ended up turning that into a trilogy, which is just, you know, for whatever reason, it's just kind of held really well.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's still hitting bestseller lists today, it's still coming out of new countries.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think the third book in the trilogy this morning was like 2,000 or something in the Kindle store, you know.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's like it's still there there's no money behind them from a marketing standpoint, but word of mouth is just really carrying them.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: You had mentioned like Sylvester Stallone's company just picked it up.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: They Balboa Productions, they just optioned the entire series, including the ones that I just wrote, um, which is fantastic.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: This is the fourth time that the series has been optioned, but it to me it's the first time I feel like it's actually going to get done because of the people that they're bringing in.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm I'm really excited about that.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I wrote originally when I wrote the fourth monkey, it was supposed to be a standalone.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like that was my general thinking I wanted to write a serial killer novel and just kind of get that out of my system and then move on to something else.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: And when my agent started shopping it, we had a ridiculous amount of attention.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: We had film and TV going on, we had publishers that wanted it, so it ended up going to auction.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and she called me at one point and she said, you know, if you've got an idea for a second book, I know I can get you a multi-book deal.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I quickly scribbled out an idea for book two and sent it off to her in an email.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and she got me a two-book deal with a company called HMH, which is now part of HarperCollins now.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I wrote the first book, wrote the second book, and I got, you know, about 500 pages into the second book and I wasn't done with the story.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I could probably wrap this up in like 600 pages, or I could just, you know, turn this into a trilogy.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: So that's essentially what I did.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: I finished up that second book, I turned it into my publisher, and I ended it with the words to be concluded.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't have a deal for the third book.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I wasn't sure what was going to happen there.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so then I wrote the third book, I sent it into my my agent.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: She sent it off to my editor, we got an offer on it, and it was an incredible offer.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: But I had self-published my first book, Forsaken, um, which was a horror novel.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I sold a lot of copies of that and I kind of got a taste of the freedom that you get as an indie author.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, you're in charge of basically every piece of the business you're controlling, everything from the cover down to the way the book is marketed, all that kind of stuff.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and the economics are honestly better.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, as an indie author, you get about 70 cents on the dollar.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: If you're on the traditional side, you might get a big advance, but you know, they're only gonna pay you 15 to 20 cents on the dollar, and you have to pay that money back before you start seeing any real royalties.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so I had already seen a little bit of that, and I didn't really like it.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I was okay with it because that's what the industry was, but like the idea of indie just really enticed me.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I wrote that third book, I turned down the offer from the publisher and I said, I'm gonna go ahead and put this out through my own press, you know, in in English.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: And you might I told my agent she can sell all the foreign territories, um, you know, because I was in a lot of foreign markets.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so we kind of did a mix of that.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: I did a hybrid approach.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I really liked doing that.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: It was, you know, because it gave me the control back that I wanted.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: I got the economic benefits of it.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but where I was lacking is where a lot of indie authors, we tend to run into a problem.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: We can't get into the big box stores.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: You can't get into Walmart or Target or Costco or the grocery stores or the pharmacies.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I knew I had to solve that.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: A few years ago, I had a book coming out called Behind a Closed Door.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: My agent sent it off and we immediately got a film option on it.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: So the publishers all lined up.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: And it was about to go to auction.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I got a phone call from a friend of mine that worked at Random House, and she said, Listen, we're about to offer on your book, and when that happens, you need to turn it down.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I asked her why, and she said, Well, in about three weeks, they're gonna fire a lot of people.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: And the editor who's who wants your book is on that list.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and that ended up playing out.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, three weeks later, Random House laid off a bunch of people.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: Harper Collins followed right behind him and laid off a bunch of people.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I've got this book and I'm sitting here, you know, like, what do I do with it?
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: I had heard that Simon and Schuster had recently got bought by a private equity firm.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I reached back out to some friends that I had worked with in finance and I got a hold of some contacts at the equity firm that purchased Simon and Schuster and started some conversations.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then ultimately we came came together on a deal where they allowed me to create my own imprint at Simon and Schuster.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I basically have my own publishing house, but I used, you know, their their backbone.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: I get to use their print sales and distribution system to get my titles out.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I get all the benefits of being an indie author, but with having a you know basically a top five publisher behind me doing the heavy lifting.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I can get into those places I couldn't get to before.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that's what I'm doing today.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um so it's been a crazy ride from the business side.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: Man, yeah, I love I love the business talk about it all because it's again, it's something I've learned a little bit about, you know, really over the last 12 to 18 months, like how this whole world works.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I was actually, I was having coffee with a guy earlier this morning, and he was using the example of he was kind of comparing the music industry, the book industry, and just like how things have changed so quickly with distribution and just people mark being more marketable, social media, all these different things that have come into play and the big traditional uh either publishing companies or music, you know, records companies are having to change their approach a little bit on how to move forward.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: And there may be some things you can't share, but do you what are some things you've seen that are different than when you kind of came about in 2014 versus today?
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: And what you maybe see happening five, 10 years from now.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: Honestly, it's the things that haven't changed that bother me.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like when you look at somebody like Random House, they're basically using the same model today that they used 50 to 100 years ago.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like they haven't changed much of anything.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel they need to, you know, because the publishing industry itself is changing so rapidly.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, on the author side, you know, a lot of authors, you know, if you go back five years ago, everybody queried an agent.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: We tried to get a traditional publisher, everybody kind of went that route.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: And today's world, a lot of people will write a book and they don't even consider getting an agent.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: They just get it edited, they get their own cover, they put it up on Amazon all by themselves.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, the publishers, what's what's happening is they're kind of looking at that now as a proving ground.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they see indie authors that are coming out.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: Some of them sell really well, other ones don't.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but they're looking at those track records before they make decisions on what they want to do next.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, it creates a problem because if you're an indie author and you're selling a lot of books, a big publisher may come up to you and say, hey, we'll give you a million dollars for your next title.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: And you're gonna look at that and say, you know what, I can actually make the million dollars on my own without the headaches of having to deal with you.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um so they, you know, they continue to do that.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: They keep going down the indie path.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: What I like about the deal that I have is it kind of changes that.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: We basically have a partnership.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so if that same publisher comes to that same indie author and says, okay, let's work together.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you've got your own publishing house, you can put this book out the way that you want to.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: You pay for your own print runs, but you can use our system to do it.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: We can get you into all the places, we can get you, you know, the distribution, we can get you print costs that are much lower than what you're paying now.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we can do all these things for you that you can't actually do.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: All of a sudden, that becomes very enticing to that person because now they're dangling something that they they can't get on their own.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's what all publishers should be doing.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: But at the moment, Simon and Schuster seems to be the only one doing it.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the other big publishers are still kind of trapped in that same model that they've they've had for years.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but their hand is going to get forced because if you walk into like a Barnes and Noble and you look at all the big name authors that are there, you know, the book covers staring out at you, you know, most of them are older at this point.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they're in their late 60s, they're in their 70s, they're they're aging out, and the traditional publishers aren't really doing anything to bring in new, new blood on the on the you know, the bottom of that pyramid.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, if you go back 10, 15 years ago, they would take in a debut author, they'd give them a five or six book deal.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: They knew the first one was gonna probably sell okay, but they would just keep building on it, building on it, and they would work with that person to turn them into that household name.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: In today's world, they're just not doing that.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: They're giving people one and two book deals, and if they don't hit it out of the park, they move on to the next person and try again and try again.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um and it's getting to the point where it's gonna bite them in the butt.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: They they need to do something different.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a lot of what this same individual was talking about, and it's interesting.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: It it's kind of they know they know the issues and they know what they need to do.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's interesting that just how slow it takes some of these changes to happen.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I mean, it could be it could end up being a really bad deal down the road if they don't make the proper changes sooner than later, it sounds like.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, they're they're listening.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if like if you were in a boardroom, you know, 10 years ago and you brought up something like TikTok, they would probably fire you or laugh you out the door.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: Today, that same person is probably leading the marketing meeting.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they they understand that these things are are working.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I've always, you know, when I compare like the indie market to the traditional market, it's almost like, you know, like ships in a harbor, like a you know, a traditional publisher is like a giant cruise ship.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: They can turn that boat around, but it takes them a lot of time to do it.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: And an indie author is like a little speed boat, you know, like we can just zip around, like, you know, I could if I was listening to a podcast right now and I heard some cool idea, I could go back to my desk and I could implement that in the next 10 or 15 minutes.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, traditional publishers can't do that, and that's how nimble they're gonna need to be in order to continue to compete in this in this world.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: No, I agree.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: JD, just a few more questions for you.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: As for those, let's say the people who follow you that are that are younger, aspiring authors that that want to do what you do, what is some advice that you would give them um to help set them up to be successful in the current landscape of wanting to write and publish books?
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, honestly, like, you know, if you look at me, like, you know, 12, 13 years ago, I had zero people on the mailing list.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: I had no published books, nobody knew who I was.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, so if you were to Google me, you're gonna see all the crazy stuff I've done.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, just kind of keep in mind I was at the same point as these other people, you know, 12 years ago.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: You just have to be persistent, you know, like you have to you're gonna hear no more than you're gonna hear yes, you know, and that continues to happen even today.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like I hear no way more than I hear yes.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: You have to develop a thick skin, um, and you just you have to be consistent with what you're doing.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: I I think to make it as a writer, you have to write every day.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost like going to the gym, like you're building a muscle.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: If you take a week off, that muscle gets weaker.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: If you're at it every day, it gets stronger.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: So you need to work on that that writer muscle every single day.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: The process gets easier, the the words get better, um, and you and you really learn what you're doing and just you know, you just stick with it.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: I love that, man.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: With your with all the stuff you've got coming up, with the book releases, potentially, you know, a deal to have it on screen.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: What's something you're most excited about over the next just year as you kind of look into the future?
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: What are some things that just, I don't know, bring joy to your life and just keep things exciting for you?
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, I had worked so many years with other people, you know, working as a book doctor and a ghostwriter, it actually felt weird for me to sit down and write a book all by myself.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so today, like I still kind of feel that.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: I I enjoy working with other people.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and working with Patterson, that kind of opened a door.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I created my own line of co-authored titles.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm working with a ton of co-authors on on books.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um what I like about it is it allows me to create a book that I couldn't create on my own.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: To give you an example, I had a book a few years ago called Heavy Are the Stones, and I wrote it with a woman named Christine Daigle, who in real life is a neuropsychologist.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so she was able to bring that skill set to the writing table.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like I can fake it, you know, I can Google and and watch a couple Netflix specials and kind of fake my way through that, you know.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: But having that like that authentic voice in the writing room is priceless.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I find that when I work with other people, you know, we bounce ideas off each other, we end up creating a book that neither of us could have written on our own.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: And to me, that that's always exciting.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm very excited about the the co-authored stuff that I'm doing right now.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's awesome, man.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: JD, I got one last question for you.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I again, thank you so much for this.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: Because I it this has just been such a joy talking with you and just learning your story.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: And and I'm excited for all the stuff you have coming out, and we'll certainly be following it.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I just can't wait to see all the stuff you continue to achieve and do.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: But tough question for you, probably, because you're a lifelong reader, but I'm always curious to know what is a book or two that has meant a lot to you personally, and what is a book that you love to recommend?
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so the book that actually got me into writing was Dracula.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I picked it up when I was eight years old and read it, and it it scared me half to death.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the first time a book had ever gotten like an emotional reaction out of me.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I always recommend that one.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, Great Expectations by Charles Dickens is actually my favorite book.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but if you if you're looking for something more recent, uh James Patterson had recommended a guy to me named Jordan Harper, uh, who I had never heard of.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think the book was uh Everyone Knows, a phenomenal writer.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I've been like I read that first one that Jim recommended, and I've been tearing through this guy's back catalog.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I would pick up one of those.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: Great recommendations.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well, JD, like I said, man, so excited.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for sharing your story and just the work you've done.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: And again, I'm so excited to see everything that you continue to do and accomplish.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: And man, we're always here to support you.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I really appreciate you being a part of the Books for Guys journey now as well.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's truly an honor.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, thanks for having me.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate it.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, JD.