Latest / Skin Anarchy / Dr Ellen Marmur, board certified leading Dermatologist

Transcript

Dr Ellen Marmur, board certified leading Dermatologist · Skin Anarchy

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Hey guys, I am so glad you're back for this episode.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: Now, this one is very special because during the course of the episode, I want you to go to www.mskincare.com.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if you go to their Sun Care section on the website and go to any of those products and buy 10 bottles, then we will give you a gem.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: And that gem can be used as the one and only ticket for our first ever giveaway.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I'm super excited about this.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: We get zero proceeds, by the way, from any of these sales, but wait till you hear about why I want you to go and buy 10 bottles of anything under the Sun Care section of mmskincare.com.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: Alright, guys, stay tuned, and I hope you find the jam.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: Hi guys, welcome back to Skincare Anarchy.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: This is your host, Ekta, and I have such an amazing guest today.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: I am so honored and so humbled that she had the time to come onto our little show.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I'm sure all of you have heard of her.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, she is definitely one of the um, you know, most prominent medical professionals right now in you know in the skin health space.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: So without further ado, I want to introduce you guys to Dr.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: Ellen Marmer, who is um also the founder of um MM Skin Care.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: So welcome to the show, Dr.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: Marmer.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so happy to be hi.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for having me.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_02: I'm happy to be on Skin Anarchy.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's my honor.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I would love to get started if you could um just tell us about your journey and your medical journey and you know what got you interested in in this specific area.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it sounds like your journey is really, really fascinating, also.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: And mine was definitely not rational or linear in any way.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: So for any listener out there who is kind of lost in kind of a free spirit, but then suddenly decides they want to go and follow their passion in any way, I highly recommend it.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I was a philosophy major and studied Japanese at Vassar College.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: And after that, I went and led wilderness survival canoeing trips and shaved my head and lived in a tent for a couple years.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: And while doing that, I needed to learn wilderness emergency medical um training.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I learned some techniques in that, and I did have one camper who twisted her ankle so badly she needed surgery.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_02: But we were like 30 miles out in the wilderness, and so I had to rig an ankle brace with duct tape and wood, and that moment of hands-on power of knowledge was so exciting, and it was the catalyst for me to say, you know what, maybe I won't be a philosopher or a wilderness guide or a canoeist, maybe I'll be a doctor.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so that led me to Berkeley, California, and I took some really, really hardcore science classes at Berkeley.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: And now in retrospect, I realize like my teachers were Nobel Prize winners.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_02: Like these were really great teachers.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um and then and then I got a number of rejections from medical school and then a number of acceptances.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_02: So I went to Einstein in the Bronx.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I love Albert Einstein.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my goodness.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: Einstein is great because a lot of people sort of get off the plane from anywhere in the world in at Jacoby or at uh Laguardia or JFK and come straight to Jacob Jacoby Hospital.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um they never turn anyone away.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_02: So we were seeing like schistosemiasis from Egypt.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_02: We were seeing all kinds of stuff that you wouldn't normally see in a private hospital.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so we got great, great training.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: And um, and then during my very last minute, basically, I thought it was going to be OBGYN and working women's health.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_02: And then at the last minute, somebody was like, hey, what do you think about dermatology?
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, you don't learn that in um medical school, right?
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: You don't learn what derm is.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: And um I was like, I don't know.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_02: And they said, you know, definitely, definitely your last elective, get it, get it, get it, get it, get derm.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: So the first day we were sitting on the grass out by Alberta Einstein, and the chairman of the department was like, So if somebody walks in and they have dandruff, what's your differential diagnosis?
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, in my mind, I'm like, they have dandruff.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: Or tune a capdis.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: We learned about you're right, or psoriasis, actually.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_02: But the woman sitting next to me was this insanely smart woman, so eloquent.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_02: And she's like, Well, actually, separate dermatitis, which is dandruff, could be the first manifestation of Parkinson's disease.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_02: It could be one of the first diagnostic indicators of HIV, it could be this, it could be that.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: And her ability to analyze the skin with this encyclopedic knowledge, just using that visual tool, um, blew my mind.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: And so I was hooked and I did everything I could possibly do, including research at night and all kinds of stuff to find to help myself get into um dermatology.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_02: And uh I will forever be grateful to Dr.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_02: Richard Granstein at Cornell for admitting me into their program.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, that's so amazing! And you know, it's it's awesome that you um acknowledge the mentors that have helped you because I know that um as a woman, you know, in medicine, it's it's so hard to find good mentors, you know what I mean?
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_02: So I I love that it is really good, and it can be, you know, you could have 25 mentors, it doesn't have to be one person.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I think like at different times in your career, you're just open to hearing inspiration from somebody, and you just should follow that gut feeling more than being super rational and like you know, plotting out everything.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's really good sometimes to follow your gut.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: No, I and you know, I I actually want to um ask you about, you know, when you were getting into dermatology and you know, first starting to see your patients, like what was like your first, you know, like what was your initial um experience?
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like did it like live up to everything you imagined, or how was it?
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_02: That's a really cool question.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think that for medical students, you go for your first year, which is like in the classroom, or at least traditionally, I think it's changing, but first year was you know, learning all the biochemistry and microbiology and stuff and anatomy, and then second year is like pathophysiology, everything that can go wrong.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_02: So, of course, you diagnose yourself with everything that can go wrong, right?
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_02: And then third year, they let you free on the wards, and suddenly you are seeing real patients with real problems, and you've got a team, and you're looking things up and presenting them in the morning at grand rounds, or you're you're able to synthesize so much information, but it's like the people that one-on-one contact with that that patient who's looking you in the eyes and like you're making an impact.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: I think that feeling is something that I think you can get in any field of medicine.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think I was drawn to dermatology for a lot of reasons, but I think I think now I realize that I'm a visual, very visual learner.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so I can read a map in two seconds and I can I'm drawn to like visual presentations of things and and putting them all together.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think, you know, different fields of medicine are are sort of better for different kinds of people and different kinds of thinkers.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um and within dermatology, I do surgery.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: So I do Mo's surgery and lasers and cosmetics and and general derm.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um and that I know you're gonna go into plastics.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like using your hands to fix something is a very visual plus mechanical way of thinking.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it wouldn't be fun unless the patients were there talking to you and like telling you their life story.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's like a renaissance experience every every day.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: I bet.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, that's I mean, it sounds wonderful.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that you know, dermatology is such a hard um, you know, area to get into.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's very competitive.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, sometimes like, you know, the people that get in, I like I have had some colleagues, and I'm like, I don't know if you're suited for this, you know what I mean?
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: Because we're not very like friendly or approachable.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I know that a lot goes into it.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: Very opposite of you.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's funny.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, dermatology used to be like the grossest like venereal disease, like syphilis, like it was like not something that was fancy.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_02: And so a lot of my professors in Durham were kind of like, you know, mangy.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like they they they needed a little topical steroid on their on their face too.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_02: But um, so it was kind of weird, you know, like this the the field has changed a lot, but I do respect um, you know, I just had a patient come in who had this crazy rash all over his body, and it he was like like scaling off, and it was scary.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought, wow, I wonder if he has like Stevens Johnson's or something life-threatening or what's happening with him.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: And uh at that moment, I was like trying to spirit talk with my prior professors.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like, could you just tell me what this is?
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_02: But then a Ouija board, like, okay, please inspire me.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but then I just reached out to my associate, Dr.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_02: Rachel Maimon, and I was like, okay, this doesn't look quite like psoriasis, it doesn't totally look like penthecus.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: What do you think it is?
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it's nice to have a colleague you can collaborate with and you know do the proper biopsies.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_02: And it actually turned out to be just like bad psoriasis, but um atypical presentations can always throw you off.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: But they also make it exciting, right?
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like the work gets more exciting the more, you know, unique cases you see.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: I, you know, I actually want to ask you as a follow-up question, you know, just as you know, in women and science, you know, this is something that's very close to my heart, you know.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what were some of the hurdles that you went through, you know, getting to where you are and all the success, you know, like what were some of the moments in your life where it was a little more bit more difficult because you were a woman in medicine?
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's been a big part of my experience.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I call it death by a thousand cuts.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_02: So it's never easy, and I don't know if it's actually easy for men either.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_02: So um I think that I I think that men have gotten used to having women in medicine too.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_02: So hopefully it's getting a little bit easier.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: But when I started in medicine, um I became really busy and successful really fast.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, and I tell this to everybody, I think it's because I loved every single day.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I tried to find that passion and joy, or I just like honed in on that, and I think patients really responded to that.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that I had great training, great mentors, great professors.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: I was pretty much scared witless um throughout my whole training experience.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: So I was studying nonstop.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um and so I think I had that capability.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think like you you get so much knowledge in your training.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: So even if it's torture, it's really worth it.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_02: But I think um that led to some maybe jealousy from some of my male colleagues or some scrutiny or something where I felt like, whoa, they are not playing fair.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not the same kind of maybe men treat each other that way.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, and I wasn't used to that, even though I have two brothers and you know, plenty of of male friends, and but I just think like what we what I thought was appropriate or fair didn't always play out that way.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um and so I I do think that the that we have come a long way, and I think being able to just talk about that, um, if I can talk about it openly and maybe help somebody who's listening who feels like they're all by themselves dealing with stuff, I think if anybody ever wants to reach out to me, I'm happy to try to help them.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: But I think that knowing that these things happen and knowing that we can talk about it and then maybe maybe having ways to resolve some of these um these conflicts, like maybe nice people who behave badly, um, we could modify that type of behavior and to sort of make things a little bit more professional, more based on meritocracy, more you know, predictable and even keeled a little bit in the workplace.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's such an excellent point that you brought up.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I know for me, like the first time, you know, I was introduced to like, you know, for me, surgery was like I knew I wanted a surgeon when I was like five years old, you know what I mean?
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: So like when I went into third year, I was like looking for you know a female surgeon.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, oh my gosh, just let me find one, you know, so I can like kind of follow her around.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I met this trauma surgeon, I remember, and oh my goodness, she was the most like badass doctor, like she was nonstop on like really brilliant, you know what I mean?
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: And just and I remember I, you know, she pulled me aside one day and she was talking to me, and she's like, Ecta, you will not believe this, but every single step of the way, there has been someone, you know, that has told me you will never make it.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: She was like, I she was like, I was told I'll never make it into graduate school.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: Then she was like, I told I was told I'll never make it into surgery, and then I was told I'll never make it into trauma, you know.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like it was like she was telling me her story, and that's really what kind of like that's why I ask you, because you know, um, I feel like women in medicine, they just we we push so much harder sometimes, you know.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_02: I call those people the negators, like it's a it's a it's a verb.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: Like there are people who want to negate all the time, and they're just like, you're like, yeah, but why don't I try?
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: Like, yeah, but I mean, maybe it's sheer luck that I've gotten to to do what I want to do, and but I don't know.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you work your butt off.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's your hard work and it's your yeah, it's your brilliance and your hard work, and there's no shame in saying that, you know what I mean?
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: As I think that's the thing that people need to realize is that you know, medicine is an area where merit should always come first, you know what I mean?
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like just like someone's knowledge should always be the deciding factor of things.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: So um, yeah, I don't want to harp too much on that topic, but I I really want to I want to dive into some questions I have for you because I know that a lot of people have a lot of confusion these days, you know, with skincare, with skin health, and like, you know, things like acne, for example.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I see so many posts on TikTok or Reddit where people are just genuinely confused about acne.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I want to ask you like, what is the best way to approach acne?
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, just from the beginning, like what are some steps that people can take to properly um go about, you know, getting help for it?
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, okay.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: So acne basically people are confused about even what it is.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: So I, you know, often people will diagnose themselves with acne when either maybe it is acne, but acne itself has different kinds of acne, like cystic acne.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_02: So you need maybe accutane or hormonal acne, and maybe you need to modify your hormones or just good old regular adolescent genetic acne.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: And that's um, that's not that hard to get under control under the care of a dermatologist.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: So there's acne, and then there's rosacea, which can look like acne but doesn't usually have the blackheads and the kind of zits.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's just more pink bumps.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then you actually have eczema.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: So keratosis pylaris is like a bumpy, dry, kind of like hard, bumpy, dry stuff on the face.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um and the way, the way to know if that's it is if your skin kind of feels dry usually, if the backs of your arms are also kind of bumpy and dry, or even your thighs.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_02: So if you kind of know your skin and think like, what else do I have on my body?
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: Do I get like ingrown hairs?
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: Do I get folliculitis?
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um that's more of an acne picture.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: Do I have like big cystic horrible things and I'm getting scarring?
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_02: That's cystic acne.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: Does it only happen when I have my period, or for men when they're really stressed?
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that could be hormonal.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_02: Or do I also have dry skin elsewhere?
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: And there's one other sneaky kind that's called piterosperum folliculitis, where it's teeny micro pimples all over the face, like a thousand tiny little micro pimples with a tiny little wighead.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: And it's actually a form of yeast.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so that's not gonna do well with the regular um acne medicines.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that the reason everyone's confused is because it's a complicated pattern.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: And rather than buying charcoal and using, I have a patient today who was like, I put banana peels on my face.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, Oh, that's that's at first.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, apple cider vinegar.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_02: Somebody today was like, I'm drinking apple cider vinegar.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, oh, how does that's that going for you?
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_02: What's your GI lining doing?
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, right.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: So they like kind of have other things.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: So I think some of the homemade brews are actually not that bad.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_02: The DYI acne stuff isn't that bad, but it's probably better to actually have a dermatologist look at it because we're just sort of obsessed with these things.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_02: And then once you have a true diagnosis and have sort of um the right way to start the right strategy, then if you want to get creative with like sweet potato blends and you know, a little bit of oatmeal.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: The mushroom that you find in like, you know, like ancient China, like you know, the herbs.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I hear you.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: No, that it makes total sense.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: And honestly, um, you know, just to summarize what you said for everyone listening, it's like, you know, first go to a medical professional to figure out what you actually have.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like you might not know if you think it's acne, that's fine, but it might not be, you know.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that's something that's like I think very, very important.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um and also one point uh to follow with what you just said, once you do start treating your acne, acne itself can change.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so, like some people were used, maybe they ordered proactive and then it stopped working for them.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that's actually sort of normal with acne.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_02: So things change a bit, and then that's also nice to have like a follow-up with your medical professional.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and the worst thing people do, I don't know if you can read my mind, but what's the absolute worst thing people with acne could do to their face?
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, dry it out too much.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, with like alcohol.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, definitely that.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: And the other thing I was thinking of is picking their skin and picking their acne.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: That becomes like an addiction, like that little self-surgery, people love picking it.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, a lot of surgeons, plastic surgeons come to me as patients, and I'm like, how is it possible that you're picking your skin?
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like you should know.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so if you ever are a skin picker, um, I would suggest buying like an aloe-based serum or something very gentle and using it on your skin instead of picking.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_02: And um, we have lots of tricks for that.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_02: But the there are lots of ways to help people change their acne habits.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I actually, you know, I wanna I want to ask you about like, you know, just following up is about the skincare aspect of, you know, all of the skin health and the skin health concerns that the you know the everyday consumer has is how much is too much skincare, you know.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like I want to know what you think, like, you know, when we're approaching skincare and we're trying to find like, you know, things that help maintain our you know, our skin, whatever the problem is, where do you think somebody should start?
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: Well, if you think about investing in skincare, like how much money you have, what your budget is, and what your problems are, um, I came up with a mnemonic that's spelled pet P-E-T.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: So everybody loves their pet.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so you should love your skin.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: And if you think about it, um, if you think about it as like the biggest part of that sort of approach is the P for protection.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_02: So if you're really just on a budget and you're like, you know what, I can't spend$495 on a half ounce of this amazing white cream.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna just spend 20 bucks.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, your best thing to do is moisturize and sun protection.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so moisturizing your skin and protecting it from the sun are gonna do two things, but basically you're acknowledging the fact that your skin is a live organ and it's already full of incredible ingredients itself and it's always repairing itself.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: So it knows really it knows what to do.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_02: You just have to help it.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_02: So by moisturizing it, you're protecting it from dehydration and that type of stress that dehydrates the skin, and you're letting your skin use its energy to fix itself.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and by using sun protection, you're preventing more oxidative stress like the inflammation and environmental stress, but you're also preventing collagen breakdown and freckles and all those things.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Are gonna cost money to fix later.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: So your biggest investment, you should like pay yourself five bucks every week that you wear sunscreen every day.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because that's money in the bank against needing cosmetic surgeries later on.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_02: So protection, and then the second one is enhancing.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_02: So once you're good at the protection habit, you can enhance your skin, and that's some of the fancy ingredients that I can talk to you about.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_02: But that might be an eye cream, a neck cream, um, a serum that has peptides and antioxidants.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: And these are things that are gonna help your pores get smaller, help your brown spots go away, help your wrinkles get better.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: So that's the E.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_02: And then T is troubleshoot.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_02: So protect, enhance, and troubleshoot.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_02: Troubleshooting is like when you have acne or rosacea or eczema or psoriasis or eyelid dermatitis or allergic reactions or you know, constant rashes.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_02: So troubleshoot is where you need to go to the dermatologist.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and to be fair, I don't think a lot of doctors, like generally speaking, doctors do not learn dermatology at almost any point in their career.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_02: So if you can get a referral and just go see a dermatologist, it's gonna help a lot.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: Just like start you off on the right foot.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and with all due respect to other doctors, but like if somebody came to me with like a UTI, I'd be like, um Yeah, yeah.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: I don't necessarily I don't always treat that.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: And so my art of medicine isn't really that.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_02: So I'd rather you see like your regular doctor, your GYN, or your urologist.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_02: So I think the same thing for skin, like it really is helpful to see a dermatologist.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that makes total sense.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I think um with skincare, I think we have this habit as consumers, or at least this is how I see it, that you know, we see a problem and we love Googling.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I think one of my favorite memes of all time is like um your Google search is not the same as my medical degree.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like I love that meme because it's so true.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, it's hard.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yesterday I was in um a really cool meeting, virtual meeting um for CEW, which is cosmetic executive women.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: And there were like, I don't know, maybe a hundred people who are in this virtual space going from room to room and talking to each other, networking, and asking questions.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: And so a couple of people work for these big data companies where they look at the trends, and one of them said that the latest, the two biggest SEO words for skincare are vitamin C and retinol, and that's vitamin C for the younger demographic and retinol for the older demographic.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so the data analyst was saying, like, wow, that's so weird because vitamin C is so unstable that it's pretty much inert or useless by the time somebody like opens the bottle for the third time that they're using it.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_02: So it's so weird that that trend keeps going.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I think as you and I both um having medical degrees, um you know, we see that there are a lot of patients coming in who are steadfast in their belief about a particular, you know, you gotta drink more water.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: You're like, well, your body's gonna just take what it needs and pee out the rest.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: But like, yeah, drinking water is good, but it's not the answer, you know.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_02: So the same thing with topicals, um it does get into a bit of a marketing spin where they the data, so let's say let's say all the retail stores sell their data of like what they what they sell the most, and then a data company has that data, and then they give advice to the L'Oreals and Estee Lauders that they need to make more products that have those two words in them.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_02: So it's really like a little bit of a game of telephone driving the industry rather than you know, good old-fashioned scientific fact and data.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think that's a bit of a bit of the vicious cycle of of um of the skincare world.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and for that reason, actually, when I was chief of dermatologic surgery at Mount Sinai, um, I was there for from 2020 to 2012, and I did a really amazing research project.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_02: I was I got a grant of like a hundred thousand dollars from Procter Gamble and did an independent study.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_02: So I drove the study and um it was a comparison of seven different topical cosmoceuticals um against each other.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_02: So we did baseline biopsies of the skin, three millimeter punch biopsies in a sun exposed area, like in front of the ear, on let's say the left side.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: We randomized the patients.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_02: Then we used the cosmosceutical and we did drugstore brands up to luxury brands, and um the same standardized um sunscreen on top.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_02: So that was half the face was with the active ingredients and the sunscreen.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_02: The other side of the face was just moisturizer and sunscreen.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_02: So basically not the fancy ingredients, and then we used it for 12 weeks and then took photos throughout the whole time, did a subjective analysis diary, and then post-op biopsies, post-biopsies, and then we did epigenetic studies looking at the pre and post to see if the actives versus the placebo had any difference.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_02: And if they did, what difference did they make?
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_02: So the data is that yes, cosmoceduticals do make a difference, yeah.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that some brands did better than others, but they weren't necessarily the most expensive brands, and we had so much data we haven't yet isolated like which exact ingredients are the ones that worked.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_02: So it looked my analysis was yes, it works.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: So that makes doctors able to talk about beauty without it being some like just because it's trendy.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um B, the subjective analysis actually did work.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: So the patients who were like, Yeah, my skin looks a lot better, that did correlate with where we did see the epigenetic stuff.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_02: So patients' ability to see a difference is basically a really important indicator that the stuff is working.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, and that not all, you know, it's cool, right?
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's very cool.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: No, you're the first, you know, doctor that I've spoken to that's actually giving credit to the research aspect of everything.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm absolutely in love with everything you're saying.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I I often ask this question um to a lot of germs that are super anti-skincare and they're super anti-topical stuff.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I say, Well, how do you know?
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, yeah, they haven't done studies.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, there's no studies.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: And also the treatments that are available, such as Accutane and topical treatments that are FDA approved, I mean, obviously they work, but they are a little dated, you know.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: And if we don't have this, like, you know, if we don't have this mentality of putting research and true, like, you know, novel breakthroughs and you know, medical science first before everything else, we're never gonna find the next best, you know, option for people.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I I really like that you that you're talking about the research aspect.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and it wasn't easy because when you biopsy skin, there's a lot of like they call it junk.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_02: There's like a lot of fibrous tissue and stuff like um in there.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: So, really, even just to refine the ability, like we were we actually pioneered the ability to use the skin for these epigenetic studies.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so we gave our database to um the Department of Genomics and Genetic Research at Sinai.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so we were so they also now are doing other studies kind of using those same techniques.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_02: So I I love the fact that, you know, even though we didn't like um invent something from it, you know, we didn't, we didn't actually like even the data analysis is so hard when you have that much information.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's fascinating when you look at science.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_02: Like the question is, what is science for skincare?
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_02: And if you look at the prior techniques, there's something called the front cell assay.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: They were looking for penetration studies.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like, if you put something on the skin, does it penetrate?
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um and we think the answer is yes.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_02: And there's some studies I can talk to you about that, but the if you look at the limitation to that assay, it's cataveric skin.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not electric, it has none of the pH going on, it doesn't have any of the like you know, aquaphilic, lipophilic kind of you know, fat water content kind of stuff.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_02: So the barrier is basically like paper, it's not really living.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_02: So that you have to look at like, oh, there's great science here, but you're like, what was that science?
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not only like is there a study, are there studies done, it's like what kind of studies are done.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_02: So and finally, the the the zinger to all of that is that the beauty industry does not want to show scientific improvement or scientific data because it becomes very close to what's called a drug, which changes the structure or function of something in the in the biology of the body, including the skin.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_02: So if you actually prove that something changes something, then it changes the definition of a cosmosceutical to something that's more of a drug, and then you have to spend millions of dollars on studies.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_02: And then all of our skincare would be way more expensive.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: No, I mean, you know, it's so funny that you're talking about this because back in like, you know, I'm a I was a huge research nerd, you know, throughout undergrad and everything, and I loved research.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: And one of my projects actually, um, it's still being like one of my papers is still being like used by some um, you know, just more dermatological peoples.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: And what I did is uh basically I looked at the extracts of eucalyptus mint turmeric, and I studied their behavior, like their effects on um all different like different strains of bacteria.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the strains was even like mycobacterium, and they and I found that mint and eucalyptus actually had extremely strong antimicrobial properties.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I had this discussion with somebody who was, you know, a founder of a skincare line, and we were talking about eucalyptus and the extract of eucalyptus.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I was trying to make her understand that yes, okay, that's good, but you have to understand that you're also killing off the normal microbiome of your skin.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like like these are very strong extracts.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like you you have to understand, like that's where that understanding, like the gap, like I saw that very early on as well, you know what I mean, between like the research and like the academia understanding and then the clinical practice and then also the entrepreneurship.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's just there needs to be this more of like this, you know, synchronicity, you know what I mean?
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: That that's there.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, like I think it's it's very interesting.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: This whole area of it's a perfect story.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's a perfect story because then, you know, you have you look at who some of the founders are, and I I love so many of the founders, and I I founded a skincare line too, but um I did it because I realized there was a complete white space.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like you just said, there's like a in you know, in entrepreneurship, you talk about a white space.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like, where is there a gap?
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and in my mind, there was a gap in understanding the understanding that the body so often our internal stressors and our external stressors, but also that whole layer of living things that are on our skin and whether or not they're imbalance, right?
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_02: So you and I study homeostasis as like the ideal nirvana for the body is that it's in homeostasis.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and the skin wants that too.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_02: But we keep like bringing ourselves to the traffic and then getting on a drying airplane and going somewhere else, and our skin is like, whoa, what's going on?
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I felt like our skin is also light, light sensitive.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like we are sensitive to sunlight, we're also sensitive.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_02: Our skin has receptors in it that change um based on other kinds of light, like visual visible light, as well as UVA, UVB, UVC, and all kinds of light.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_02: So low level light, there could be affected by that.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you're breaking up a little bit.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: NASA accessible and LED light.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um lasers, I realized like home.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_02: I'm here.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_02: Can you hear me?
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I can hear you now.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_02: Home care products are so static, like they expect your skin.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's almost like makeup, you should be able to apply it any day, but our skin changes so much, and our home skincare isn't as dynamic as our skin.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_02: So I made skincare products that have biodynamic ingredients that are adaptogens, they adapt to your body heat.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_02: If your skin is really red and inflamed, there's an ingredient called thermophilus that'll just cool it down.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_02: If there's like adaptogens like blue-green algae and wild indigo and things that are all about bringing the skin back into balance, a little bit of the anti-acne um botanicals, and then LED light activated ingredients called photodynamic ingredients.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so you it comes with an LED light, and the light activates specific ingredients.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_02: So you can you can have at home as if you went to the dermatologist, and it's I made it very color-coded and very easy, and it's all for either there's only three choices like acne versus radiance and wrinkles versus your sleeping when you're sleeping and you're repairing all your skin.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_02: So it's good stuff.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_02: And so I felt like skincare follows some of those things like eucalyptus, just go for it, go for it, or vitamin C, just go for it, go for it.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_02: But I didn't understand that your skin is an organ and it's living and it's dynamic and it's changing, and that um we don't need to overdo those 20 ingredients every day, like the K beauty stuff, but we do want nice stuff and we want to take care of ourselves.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_02: So um that's the the whole point of MM skincare.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, and I love, I actually love that um the mask technology that you were talking about.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's actually um the coolest thing I've seen in a long time.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I when I first tried it.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like everyone listening out there, like genuinely, like you have to check it out because it's you know, it's wonderful, you know, it's it's a mask and it's it's easy to use.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, if we use one product and just try to see like what it does for us, like we're gonna be so much more efficient, you know, as consumers.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's something that nobody wants to talk about in this industry, is like you know, you don't need 15 different hyaluronic acids, you know, you don't need like, you know, but yeah, like you know, long story short, I think what you did is is is beautiful and it's it's really true to medical science, you know.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I really commend you for that.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's not easy to be an entrepreneur, and uh so my next goal is to we launched it a few years ago, and really all the patients have been giving us feedback and loving certain things and like wanting to change like one or two little things, and then the world of like clean ingredients and what to oh my gosh, don't get me started on clean.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: I will talk your ear off.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: I cannot stand that word.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I I don't even know what you know, like organic, like when they people say, Oh, this is organic, really, everything's organic.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, that's true.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_02: That is absolutely true, and everything's chemical too, by the way.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_02: All the organic things are actually chemicals, yeah.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_02: Right, we are chemicals.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I love on Earth Day this year, Allure magazine pledged that they won't call anything natural, green, organic, sustainable, any of that, unless it is like literally the color green and you know, literally 100% recyclable and sustainable.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_02: So they're off that that kind of like farming.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_02: I love Allure.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like they always do the best reporting, you know what I mean?
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like when it comes to beauty, I really like the way they approach it.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that more people need to do that because you know, a lot of consumers, like I know, like I'm always on Reddit trying to figure out like what are people's real skin concerns, and like I kid you not, it's like you know, just people using massive amounts of peels and you know, like just terrible stuff, like pumpkin extract or something, like you know, and I'm like, where did you get this idea?
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I want to know the person that gave you this idea.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's just the weirdest thing.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like, honestly, I have a patient who came in and it sounds horrible, but she was using like her own urine to treat her own skin cancers.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, oh my god.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god, wow.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_00: What is I was actually gonna ask you, like, what's your most interesting case?
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that definitely checks off that.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely one of them.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: You're like, okay, am I going is it are we gonna be like earth to you know, earth to patient?
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: Can we help you?
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but but she actually was like, Okay, I guess it didn't work, okay, go for it.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, so well, people have to do that.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: I hope she's doing better.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, she's all cured.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's good.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, Dr.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_00: Mermor, I I want to say thank you so much.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: You're amazing.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, this has been so fun talking to you.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: I would love for us to like continue doing these um little episodes, and I'd love to do like a QA with you next time.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, great.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_02: Let's do it.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and thank you so much.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_02: You sound so dynamic.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_02: I can't wait to meet you now that you're in New York for a while, and I can't wait to watch your career in plastic surgery.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you for it.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_00: And everyone listening out there, definitely check out MM Skincare.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna link everything in the podcast art, and you know, leave some questions and comments in our, you know, in the comment section, and I'll definitely pass them along uh to uh Dr.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: Marmer and see if she can respond.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: But um, thank you so much for listening.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_02: I have one more quickie for you.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_02: There's a there's a new launch just now called Sasha Sun Care, and that's my teenage daughter, and she's using her teenage voice to get other teenagers to wear sunscreen.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_02: And um so Sasha Suncare is aquamarine safe.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_02: That's mineral sunscreen that's fine for the oceans, and um, there's also a sport sunscreen that is what we call chemical, so it gives you higher SPF, but you shouldn't use it in the ocean because of the little fishies, and then there's a face mineral as well.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_02: So three three products, and then every 10 bottles that she so it is 100% philanthropic, so no profit, just FD-approved awesome sunscreen.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_02: And um, every 10 bottles she sells saves one family with albinism in Africa.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh, amazing! So it's gonna be on the Today Show on July 21st, and um everybody go buy Sasha's uncare on MS.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, and can we please have her?
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: I want to invite her on the show.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yes, I want to definitely do a podcast again.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: You're the best.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone, please go check out Sasha's skincare.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna support her 100%.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: That is such a beautiful thing.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, I always say, you know, what you know, intelligent women raise wise women, you know, and I just I love that.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_00: I love that's a cool quote.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'll tell her that.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_02: Eva, thank you so much, and everybody, thank you.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: Hey guys, so I hope you love that episode.
• 41:48
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• 41:53
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• 41:56
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• 42:10
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• 42:27
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• 42:31
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• 42:41
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• 42:53
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.