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Hiring Challenges, Tips & Tricks · The Spiro Podcast: Managing your Real Estate Photography & Videography Business

• 0:00
  Coming up on this episode of The Spiro podcast.
• 0:04
  but you get into what's called the owner trap.
• 0:07
  When your ego is larger than what it should be,
• 0:12
  you get into the owner trap where everything revolves around you.
• 0:17
  There was a point in my business that wow was Todd, and Todd was wow.
• 0:22
  And when you grow
• 0:24
  to enough agents, that becomes overwhelming
• 0:28
  and you are going to drop the ball, you're going to forget things
• 0:32
  and you are going to wonder why you backed yourself into a job.
• 0:49
  Hi and welcome to the Spiro Podcast, managing your real estate,
• 0:53
  photography and videography business.
• 0:56
  As we say each and every week, Spiro is a software platform.
• 1:00
  It's designed to help you run your day to day real estate
• 1:03
  media business, but ultimately really help you scale as well.
• 1:06
  I'm Craig Magrum, host of podcast Welcome back, Another Week.
• 1:10
  If you are a returning viewer or listener, if this is your first time
• 1:13
  watching or listening, welcome.
• 1:15
  Our whole goal is to help you build a strong, strong business.
• 1:18
  And we've got a great community that's that's being built,
• 1:22
  a lot of great participation from those that listen and watch.
• 1:25
  And we just we appreciate you taking the time to be a part of this podcast. So,
• 1:31
  welcome back, Mr. Todd Kivimaki
• 1:34
  Hey, it's incredible to be back.
• 1:36
  I snuck out for a vacation for a couple weeks, and it was good to get out.
• 1:40
  I saw some of you on the yacht
• 1:42
  mastermind with Eli Jones, so that was fun to do in Miami.
• 1:46
  And, always good to connect with you guys.
• 1:49
  And at this time, right now, Craig, if you're listening to this at launch,
• 1:53
  we might be in the air headed to Vegas for the first of the two conferences.
• 2:00
  This is the REPP conference.
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  So this is just like the highlight of my year seeing all of you.
• 2:07
  It's going to be a good time.
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  I'm looking forward to it as well.
• 2:10
  Yeah.
• 2:10
  And you know who's in the air with me Craig is
• 2:14
  actually I think we're on different flights.
• 2:17
  Yeah. Craig.
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  So we are all flying out of Detroit.
• 2:20
  We're flying out.
• 2:21
  So six of us are going Detroit.
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  My dad's from, my dad's from Detroit.
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  So I say it like I'm from Detroit.
• 2:28
  Okay. All right.
• 2:30
  And we are on three different planes all leaving at the same time.
• 2:34
  It's three different planes. I knew we were on at least two.
• 2:37
  You and then me with Jess and Steve are on three different planes, I heard.
• 2:43
  Oh, that's funny.
• 2:44
  So it that I don't know, at least two of them are leaving
• 2:47
  within five minutes of each other, but, yeah, yeah, yeah,
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  I'll wait for you at the airport.
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  Don't worry. I think I beat you there.
• 2:54
  Yeah, yeah.
• 2:57
  Hey, if
• 2:57
  you are in Vegas with us this week, or if you're listening to this
• 3:01
  a couple weeks later, is PMRE, please come and find us.
• 3:05
  Okay?
• 3:06
  Come find us. We would love to connect with you.
• 3:09
  We would love to just talk here about your story.
• 3:11
  Say hello, come find us.
• 3:14
  And, it would just be a thrill of ours to get to meet you in person.
• 3:18
  Absolutely.
• 3:19
  Please make sure your name tags are out.
• 3:21
  I am terrible with names.
• 3:23
  Even if I've seen you on social media, seeing your profile picture
• 3:26
  versus seeing you in person.
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  I don't know what it is about my brain, but there's always a disconnect.
• 3:31
  I just don't want to feel bad.
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  Like, who are you? Please say hello.
• 3:36
  Yeah.
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  Very well. It's going to be great.
• 3:39
  All right.
• 3:40
  So, we have a great topic this week suggested by the listeners.
• 3:44
  And viewers.
• 3:45
  We get a very, very strong request, Todd, to talk about hiring.
• 3:50
  So that's what we're going to be talking about this week.
• 3:52
  But before we do, you have an announcement you wanted to make.
• 3:57
  Yeah, just a quick pitch for you all.
• 3:58
  Spiro sync. So this is our conference.
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  This is in January of 2026,
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  the 22nd and the 23rd in Dayton, Ohio.
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  This is our first time we're putting together a conference.
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  So and we have done this because we want to connect with you.
• 4:15
  We want you to come grow and learn, but we also want you to take a breath.
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  And we want to help you build community around you.
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  So we're hoping to put about 150 people to a small group
• 4:28
  into a room for a couple of days.
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  Have you guys connect?
• 4:31
  We're going to go out into the city and do some fun things in the evening and,
• 4:36
  just all take a breath, learn a little bit, gear up, jump start for 2026.
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  And then I've been saying this, but my goal is that you leave Dayton, Ohio
• 4:46
  with a few new phone numbers in your cell phone.
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  Some people that you might lean on, some people that you might hop on
• 4:54
  on a Wednesday
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  evening to just talk about life, business, whatever it may be.
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  But that's our goal for it.
• 5:00
  We would love to have you come.
• 5:02
  Tickets are still available, but they are going fast,
• 5:05
  so please don't wait to book the VIP.
• 5:08
  Tickets sold out almost immediately, but still,
• 5:11
  we have a limited number of remaining tickets that are still great.
• 5:14
  Both days you get to go to.
• 5:16
  We're going to feed you on those days.
• 5:18
  Visit Spiro.media.
• 5:20
  Click the Spiro Sync button to find out the full list of, who, what, when,
• 5:26
  where, and why, and then you can book your ticket from the website.
• 5:31
  Let's get again. Going to be a great time.
• 5:33
  I'm looking forward to that. Yeah.
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  So that's it for me, Craig.
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  Let's, you know, it's great.
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  We saw this, suggested quite a bit in the comments and also in emails.
• 5:44
  So if you if you have a topic, please let us know.
• 5:48
  Hello@spiro.media or just if you're on YouTube you can post in the comments.
• 5:51
  But we are here to bring you value and enough of you said, hey,
• 5:55
  let's talk about hiring and it's very fitting this time of the year.
• 5:58
  Craig.
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  It is, it is.
• 6:00
  And I you know, we've we've faced a little bit of a challenge
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  hiring ourselves as a particularly in my market,
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  where I'm currently the only photographer and videographer.
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  And it is
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  it has been a challenge to finding somebody,
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  either qualified or interested or schedule works out for them.
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  Doesn't work.
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  You know, it's hiring why
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  Let's let's ask the first question.
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  Why does it seem hiring is so I don't want to say hard, but challenging.
• 6:33
  Yeah, it's a great question, Craig.
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  You know, when you look at hiring, I, I think that the available
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  working market has has slimmed down a little bit.
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  And I think that you have some people stuck in between
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  and between jobs or sizes of careers.
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  And for us, we are looking at we're trying who do we attract.
• 6:57
  Right.
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  Like do we attract creatives that know how to shoot real estate media?
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  Well, it's a niche market.
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  Like how how many people, you know, more people know how to shoot
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  real estate media in 2025 than in 2004 when I started, you know?
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  But still, it's not like you're putting out a post.
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  They're not teaching this in school.
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  So do you go to get do you go to creative then?
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  Are you trying to pull them from weddings and babies and families
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  or creating corporate videos or customer services are really big.
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  It's probably the bigger aspect of our job, right?
• 7:31
  Craig?
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  So do they hire somebody that expands?
• 7:35
  Yeah,
• 7:37
  yeah.
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  I you know, it's one of those things where I think
• 7:42
  there's an e for real estate photography.
• 7:43
  there's an eye for real estate photography.
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  I've had realtors tell me you've you've got the eye for it Craig.
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  I'm like, well that's great, but part of that is developed and cultivated
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  by the training that I went through.
• 7:55
  Yeah.
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  There is some certainly some natural, you know, talent people can have for it.
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  But I'm convinced that a large part of,
• 8:04
  success in being a real estate photographer,
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  is the customer service, the interpersonal skills.
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  And maybe that's my sales,
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  you know, business development bias.
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  But I, I firmly believe people buy from people they know, like and trust and,
• 8:21
  and we've probably all heard that phrase, but,
• 8:27
  I don't know, I've seen some photographers that, that have that and do very well
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  in some that don't.
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  And the realtor doesn't relate to the photographer nearly as well.
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  And really, I think this is a team effort the realtor has to see.
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  Their photographer is, a trusted close
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  team member that they can say, this is my photographer.
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  There's like some ownership that the realtor feels in having
• 8:50
  a particular individual be part of their team in front of the seller.
• 8:55
  Yeah for sure.
• 8:56
  Let's let's break that down a little bit, Craig.
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  The psychology of that.
• 9:00
  So if you are looking at hiring,
• 9:03
  then at some point and maybe
• 9:06
  right now your clients are used to only you.
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  Yeah.
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  So that is a hurdle.
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  And there's ways to get over that. And it's part of growth.
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  But if your clients are used to you and you have the relationship,
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  you know that Craig made a point that's so important
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  then that is something
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  that you have to pass off in train to your photographer.
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  Also, I you know,
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  I look back over the years and
• 9:37
  when I shot houses
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  and I haven't shot a house for a very long time
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  when I shot houses.
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  And I'm not saying this to boost my ego, I don't know if I literally got
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  one complaint
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  now. It's not because my media was spectacular.
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  Like, if I look back at my media from 10 or 15 years ago,
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  I cringe.
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  It's bad, like it's evolved a lot since then, but I'm like, oh my.
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  Like I used to angle down on rooms.
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  Craig
• 10:10
  yeah, yeah yeah.
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  There's, you know, I, I would I'm six, I'm six foot seven.
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  You I'd put the camera above my head and pointed down.
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  I thought it was a cool view.
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  And nobody complained about it.
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  You know what?
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  Because you're
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  I was it was bad stuff.
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  But they all.
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  I had the relationship with them.
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  They trusted me. Yep.
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  And that is one thing
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  that we have some we've had some really great photographers over the years.
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  Like really good eye, technical photographers that
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  don't speak or don't
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  have good enough customer service in a property.
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  And we get feedback from them that they were rude.
• 10:54
  Yes. Or they seem so that that's kind of the tone that we get
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  and that I think that shows that
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  if your clients, the agents and their client,
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  the homeowner, if they leave feeling wild,
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  feeling warm,
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  they don't care so much about the photos,
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  they're less apt
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  to point and say, where was this photo? You didn’t
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  Take that, or this is not as steady as it could be, or I want more contrast
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  because
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  they have they they feel good about the person.
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  They don't make them
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  maybe don't want to hurt their feelings or oh, it's good enough.
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  And then they don't try to nitpick it.
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  And we've had cases
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  before where the agent has not had a good customer
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  service experience at the property with our photographer,
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  and they just nitpicked the crap
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  out of that set of images.
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  And I looked at him.
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  There's nothing wrong with them,
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  but we just know at that point the damage has already been done.
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  Like we would just send another photographer out there.
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  They would take the same exact photos and the realtor be happy with them.
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  So would you say in hiring?
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  Is the first thing you're looking for?
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  Personality and customer service.
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  Communication over for the creative side.
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  For us it is Craig 100%.
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  So we want to take our our first core value.
• 12:26
  Wow. As clients are our number one priority.
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  So we have to align with that.
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  We have to hire photographers that have that
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  as a core value and want to take care of the clients.
• 12:38
  We can teach them all the photo and video.
• 12:40
  We've got a phenomenal video series and curriculum
• 12:44
  that will walk somebody through knowing nothing to taking very good
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  photo, video and drone, okay, 3D, all this stuff.
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  So we're confident about that,
• 12:53
  that we can do that.
• 12:55
  Just as a side note here, shameless plug, if you are interested in that.
• 12:59
  I've said that enough
• 13:01
  and enough of you have said, hey, wait a minute, can I have this?
• 13:04
  Like, can I, can I buy this? Can I have access?
• 13:06
  Can I find out more about what you have for your video curriculum?
• 13:12
  We are looking at how we can get that to you.
• 13:15
  What's relevant to you?
• 13:17
  If you could just email us hello@spiro.media
• 13:21
  and let me know you're looking for that.
• 13:24
  I'll put you in contact with Steve who's spearheading that at Wow,
• 13:27
  but that has been a huge resource for us because we if I look
• 13:31
  at some of our best photographers, one of them came from as a factory worker.
• 13:35
  Yes. The other one worked in,
• 13:39
  customer service management,
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  where they were either bartenders or waiters,
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  and they are our best photographers because they walk in
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  and they can just carry on a conversation.
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  They can make people feel warm.
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  But in our in our training that we have for more the creative and technical side,
• 13:54
  you know, how, what angles to take, how many to take.
• 13:57
  You know, all of that.
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  The one thing I don't think we have is, is the customer
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  service side, how to interact.
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  So when I have, when I've trained or had people shadow me up in my market,
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  I approach it from the business development side
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  because the challenge I've run into is exactly what you referred to earlier.
• 14:16
  Todd.
• 14:17
  People get used to you doing their photos and they develop that relationship
• 14:21
  and then they don't want anybody else.
• 14:23
  And that's been part of my challenge, is getting realtors comfortable
• 14:26
  with somebody besides me because I'm I'm at capacity.
• 14:30
  I can't take on any additional clients,
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  and I need some of my current clients to be able to trust another photographer.
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  That's part of our team and part of our system,
• 14:40
  so that I can have some time freed up.
• 14:42
  Right?
• 14:42
  So when I've had people shadow me,
• 14:45
  I approach it from from the business development side
• 14:48
  and I'll, I'll share with them how to how to talk
• 14:51
  with the realtor, how to interact with the with the seller, helping them
• 14:55
  understand you're part of that Realtors team when you're on this appointment.
• 14:58
  Yes, you're part of wow video tours, but you're part of X Realtors.
• 15:04
  You know, team and you represent them.
• 15:08
  Your your job is to try and help them win more listings.
• 15:11
  So anything you can do to put yeah.
• 15:13
  Like you said a good feeling into that seller
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  when that seller's asked by a friend
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  or a family member, hey, who did you use to sell your house?
• 15:23
  They're going to think of that realtor
• 15:25
  in, in that realtor will get that referral in that that lead in.
• 15:28
  When another listing. So if you can,
• 15:33
  embed yourself as part of
• 15:34
  that Realtors marketing team as a photographer,
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  that that's the thing I'm trying to instill in any new members
• 15:41
  that we have as part of our team
• 15:42
  is that you're not just a photographer or a creative.
• 15:45
  Yeah, you've got a great eye.
• 15:46
  You take beautiful pictures, but it's more the job is more of that.
• 15:49
  So you've got to look for that natural bent and then cultivate that, grow it.
• 15:54
  Give them those little tips, tips and tricks that you've
• 15:57
  developed over the years to build such a like, good clientele.
• 16:01
  Yeah, for sure, for sure.
• 16:03
  Now we don't want to scare you and think that hiring is not worth it
• 16:07
  because, oh no, no, it definitely it definitely is.
• 16:10
  Yeah, yeah.
• 16:12
  And you know, there's challenges to anything
• 16:15
  and there are challenges to hiring.
• 16:17
  And we're going to jump into those soon.
• 16:18
  But I just want to make the point that because I think it's important for you
• 16:22
  all as owners out there to get this was tough for me.
• 16:25
  So I want to I want to share this with you.
• 16:29
  When I was doing all of the photography,
• 16:32
  I was maybe doing 15k, 20K a month, okay.
• 16:37
  And it was just me and I didn't have to deal with any complaints.
• 16:41
  I knew every one of my clients like,
• 16:44
  I felt like I gave stellar
• 16:46
  customer service, like I wowed them every time,
• 16:50
  but and and then when I hired,
• 16:55
  we lost some of the clients
• 16:57
  that loved Todd. So.
• 17:01
  And that was hard.
• 17:03
  I've got a name that comes to mind,
• 17:06
  Rhonda, and I won't say her last name,
• 17:08
  but I had worked so hard to get Rhonda and she had a great relationship
• 17:13
  with her current photographer at the time, and I had called.
• 17:18
  I'd stop by.
• 17:19
  I'd sent things I wanted to get Rhonda.
• 17:21
  She was a top,
• 17:22
  probably five agent at a new company that I was not really embedded in.
• 17:29
  And her photographer went on vacation
• 17:33
  and her photographer didn't have backup photographers.
• 17:35
  And you know who was there?
• 17:38
  I was, and I happened to shoot the home
• 17:43
  of her builder that they were living in their personal home. Wow.
• 17:47
  So not only so, Rhonda was at the shoot,
• 17:51
  and not only was Rhonda the shoot, but the homeowners as the builder
• 17:55
  who builds a lot of houses and Rhonda sells them was at the shoot.
• 17:59
  And Craig, you know what?
• 18:00
  I thought my jokes were good that day.
• 18:02
  My my hair was put together like I was on it,
• 18:06
  like, I like I I'm sorry, this is my ego.
• 18:09
  But I knocked this one out of the park, like there.
• 18:12
  Like I just had it. Like I was like, I still got it.
• 18:16
  And Rhonda shot every property with me
• 18:20
  after that property.
• 18:24
  And I was proud of it.
• 18:26
  Like, I was hat like I was happy about it.
• 18:29
  And then honestly, when we when I brought Ryan on
• 18:32
  as our next in line photographer, Ryan was better than me.
• 18:36
  His jokes are better, his hair is better.
• 18:37
  He's got more of a hard part.
• 18:39
  These fancy glasses, he was just better than me.
• 18:42
  And she was good with him too.
• 18:44
  But when we grew beyond myself and Ryan,
• 18:48
  that's when
• 18:50
  she just wanted that personal relationship
• 18:55
  and I had to be okay with it.
• 18:58
  It hurt like I cry a little tear
• 19:01
  at night every once in a while because of it,
• 19:04
  because I worked so hard to get that relationship.
• 19:08
  And she does a lot of listings, but
• 19:12
  if I wanted to get
• 19:14
  another 1000 agents,
• 19:17
  I had to be okay losing Rhonda.
• 19:21
  And I just want to make that point to all of you
• 19:23
  that you are going to lose some clients, not all of them.
• 19:27
  You're going to lose a small percent of clients because they are used to you.
• 19:31
  And the 20K that I was doing back then,
• 19:35
  it was myself and maybe Ryan
• 19:38
  pales no comparison to the 350K a month we do now.
• 19:43
  Okay, so this is part of growing you.
• 19:46
  You are going to change clients that found you
• 19:50
  attractive in a business sense at your stage
• 19:55
  now versus 30 some photographers, they're different.
• 19:59
  And you're going to lose some people.
• 20:02
  So you just have to get over that.
• 20:03
  There's no easy way about it.
• 20:06
  So that's hard.
• 20:07
  That was part of my problem too, is when I hired
• 20:10
  my first photographer, when I had, you know, had my business,
• 20:14
  I the feedback I would get is
• 20:17
  he's a nice guy, but he's he's quiet.
• 20:20
  He's not you.
• 20:22
  And and they would they would say the pictures aren't quite as good
• 20:26
  and I'd look at them.
• 20:27
  I'm like, this is exactly how I would shoot the photos.
• 20:31
  But it boiled down to that relationship.
• 20:33
  So yeah, if you can, if you can train people
• 20:35
  when you hire them and see that potential for great relationship building
• 20:39
  and in that photographer and bring that out of them,
• 20:43
  I think you can mitigate some of that loss.
• 20:45
  Probably. Yeah.
• 20:47
  Yeah, you can for sure.
• 20:49
  And you can grow bigger than you've ever would have grown.
• 20:51
  Yeah.
• 20:52
  With where you're at now is part of it is being the owner.
• 20:56
  You have to kill a little bit of your ego and get over those lost relationships.
• 21:01
  Oh, let me,
• 21:04
  Yeah.
• 21:05
  Oh, it's that's horrible.
• 21:09
  Oh, I got it.
• 21:10
  Yes, yes.
• 21:11
  100% struck a nerve there, Oh my ego.
• 21:16
  Oh, my chest for a second.
• 21:20
  Yes, you do.
• 21:22
  And that is hard because you you worked hard
• 21:27
  to build those relationships and you don't want to let them go.
• 21:31
  Okay.
• 21:31
  All right, all right.
• 21:33
  But the thing is, and then we'll get into the nitty gritty.
• 21:36
  One quick point is that.
• 21:39
  And I'm talking on this in Vegas this week
• 21:41
  if you're here, but you get into what's called the owner trap.
• 21:46
  When your ego is larger than what it should be,
• 21:51
  you get into the owner trap where everything revolves around you.
• 21:55
  There was a point in my business that wow was Todd, and Todd was wow.
• 22:01
  I can't tell you how many real estate agents I am in there.
• 22:03
  Phone is Todd. Wow.
• 22:05
  Yeah, yeah, there is no difference.
• 22:08
  You call Todd, you get wow, you call. Wow. That's Todd.
• 22:12
  And when you grow
• 22:14
  to enough agents, that becomes overwhelming
• 22:18
  and you are going to drop the ball, you're going to forget things
• 22:22
  and you are going to wonder why you backed yourself into a job.
• 22:28
  I did it, I did it for many years.
• 22:30
  That's a new did it multiple times.
• 22:32
  That's an interesting phrase. You just said.
• 22:35
  Can you expand on that a little bit?
• 22:37
  You backed yourself into a job.
• 22:40
  Yeah, because,
• 22:42
  well, we all start our business because we don't want to work for a boss
• 22:47
  we hate, or we want to have the we want to have the freedom
• 22:50
  to own something, or we're taking the leap of faith
• 22:53
  to create something that our kids can have.
• 22:58
  And if you do it the wrong way,
• 23:02
  you're getting into this owner trap or you're in the corner where you are
• 23:05
  tied to nothing more than a job because everything revolves around you
• 23:13
  and you have to do everything.
• 23:16
  And then you go, I use this analogy in my presentation.
• 23:21
  You hang out with your good friends
• 23:23
  on Friday evening.
• 23:27
  And you sit in their garage when everybody's happy and smiling
• 23:31
  and telling stories and you have nothing to say, hey,
• 23:38
  and it still strikes a chord with me because
• 23:41
  I remember sitting in this location.
• 23:43
  These were best friends of ours,
• 23:45
  and I sat there and I couldn't think anything except work.
• 23:49
  I had nothing to add.
• 23:51
  I couldn't ask some of my best friends
• 23:55
  how they are, how they are, how's life?
• 23:57
  How are their kids?
• 23:59
  Because I was so trapped in my business
• 24:02
  and I thought everything had to revolve around me,
• 24:07
  and I didn't know how to get out, y'all, I really didn't.
• 24:10
  It took help from a lot of people, but I was so trapped down in a deep, dark,
• 24:14
  well and I had some really bad thought airs in my head,
• 24:18
  and it took a lot of years to begin to reshape those and reshape the team.
• 24:24
  And I don't want that for you all, I really don't.
• 24:27
  I want you to build a healthy business.
• 24:28
  You have to rely on other people, and part of rely on other people means
• 24:32
  that it's not you that does it, which is a great thing.
• 24:36
  But those small percentage of clients
• 24:39
  that have to have you are going to go find someone else. Hey,
• 24:45
  you got to protect your own
• 24:46
  personal margin, is what I'm hearing and thinking.
• 24:50
  Yes, 100%.
• 24:51
  Craig.
• 24:54
  There are two books that are coming to mind,
• 24:56
  and I'm blanking on the on the exact name, the names of them,
• 24:59
  but I think one of them is boundaries, or it's something about boundaries.
• 25:06
  I have to look it up.
• 25:08
  I'll put it in the notes.
• 25:09
  If I find the final name of the books that talk about that specifically.
• 25:13
  So, yeah.
• 25:15
  Great. Okay.
• 25:15
  Okay. Let's jump into the particulars because we have.
• 25:18
  Yeah.
• 25:18
  We've got we want to help you with the particulars as well.
• 25:21
  So so what might my question I think the question that's
• 25:25
  at the top of most of these people's minds and guys,
• 25:29
  forgive me of if I've assumed wrong, but what are the specific challenges
• 25:35
  that owners are finding in hiring photographers?
• 25:39
  So photographers specifically, what
• 25:42
  what are the roadblocks to to finding them and getting them on board?
• 25:45
  What would you say?
• 25:46
  I've got a couple in the back of my head, but what about you?
• 25:50
  Yeah.
• 25:50
  So if the first is like, oh, this is kind of scary.
• 25:53
  I don't know, like, what is hiring?
• 25:55
  Are they a contractor or they a W-2 employee.
• 25:58
  Like, what do I have to do?
• 26:01
  Like I'm just used to doing my own thing and I know what I do with taxes
• 26:04
  and I file this way, but like now, someone else is going to depend on me.
• 26:08
  And that's a that's a heavy
• 26:11
  that's a not a burden.
• 26:12
  But that's a, that's a great that's heavy required responsibility.
• 26:16
  Thank you Craig. Yeah.
• 26:17
  And so I did this I,
• 26:20
  I just naturally when I started I was scared of that. And
• 26:25
  please hiring an employee is not scary.
• 26:28
  It's actually very simple.
• 26:29
  There are regulations.
• 26:30
  There's regulations between a contractor, an employee.
• 26:34
  And I'm going to go over both of those.
• 26:35
  And I'm going to tell you pros and cons of both of them.
• 26:39
  So all of our photographers at Wow,
• 26:41
  except for two are contractors, 1099 contractors,
• 26:47
  because we want to go look for people who have their own business
• 26:51
  that are looking for work.
• 26:53
  Monday through Friday, and
• 26:58
  then fill it in with some of their own work.
• 27:02
  So these are people that are doing maybe some corporate video
• 27:07
  on the weekends or gigs come on Saturdays when weddings are all right.
• 27:11
  Also bartenders,
• 27:12
  they might have another job and they're looking to freelance.
• 27:15
  Okay.
• 27:15
  A lot of our people are cre have some ex of creativeness
• 27:20
  where they do something music, photo,
• 27:22
  video art, something creative, and this happens to fit in.
• 27:27
  And I did that because immediately I was like,
• 27:30
  I don't want to hire employees.
• 27:32
  I was like, this is kind of really scary.
• 27:34
  It's not.
• 27:36
  But the thing about being a
• 27:38
  and contractor employee and I'm not an attorney.
• 27:41
  Also, please
• 27:42
  consult an attorney in your state because this is a little bit different,
• 27:46
  but it all comes down to control.
• 27:50
  Do you have control over that individual.
• 27:54
  So for our photographers, they remain they retain all control.
• 28:00
  They tell us when they want to work.
• 28:02
  They have the ability to not take a job.
• 28:05
  They tell us what they charge for a service.
• 28:08
  We have an agreement on a on a pay scale for them.
• 28:12
  They they can invoice us for a fee
• 28:17
  that pertains to a job that might not be normal.
• 28:20
  Okay.
• 28:21
  So that is their business
• 28:22
  invoicing our business, and we lose some control as to where
• 28:26
  if a photographer doesn't want to go to a job,
• 28:30
  say, in a far out city or outlier, as we call them,
• 28:34
  they can say no to it, and then it's on us
• 28:37
  to try to either find a different contractor that will go or
• 28:41
  compensate them, come up with some agreement
• 28:44
  for compensation that they say, yes, this is a job I want to take.
• 28:48
  Okay. So we lose that as a company.
• 28:51
  Now, on the flip side, as an employee,
• 28:54
  you are going to tell your employee where to go and when to work,
• 28:58
  and you're going to pay them for that time and their expenses.
• 29:01
  And you have control.
• 29:03
  So if an employee does not want to go to the far city,
• 29:07
  then they are somewhat being insubordinate and then of your request
• 29:12
  and you need to pay them to go to that city.
• 29:15
  And so do you see everything kind of boils down to the same.
• 29:18
  Like if you send an employee to a far out
• 29:20
  city, you're just compensating for this time.
• 29:22
  And probably if a contractor doesn't want to go out to the far out city,
• 29:26
  they're seeing it not worth their time.
• 29:30
  But it all comes down to control.
• 29:31
  Do you want the control of doing that?
• 29:34
  And we find with us at Wow that we are okay with our 30
• 29:39
  some photographers keeping their control, and we feel like it's a good relationship
• 29:44
  because we need to be attractive to them so that they want to take jobs.
• 29:50
  And in the same sense, they want to be attractive to us
• 29:53
  so that we have the ability to say, hey, we have jobs for you.
• 30:01
  When when a
• 30:03
  potential contractor is talking with you, it
• 30:08
  and they ask guaranteed income or guaranteed
• 30:11
  number of jobs, what's your response.
• 30:13
  How do you handle that.
• 30:15
  Yeah I was asked I found that to be a sticking point.
• 30:18
  Yeah. Nothing is guaranteed.
• 30:20
  This is the nothing is guaranteed
• 30:25
  as you have enough availability and you keep your schedule open
• 30:29
  and you accept jobs.
• 30:30
  The more jobs you accept, the more money you'll make.
• 30:33
  The higher skills that you have, the more you will make per job.
• 30:39
  Now we do show them, hey,
• 30:42
  an average contractor that accepts this many jobs.
• 30:46
  This is about what your.
• 30:48
  This is about the fees that you would make.
• 30:51
  So we try to paint the picture for them and connect the dots.
• 30:55
  Because again they're coming into an industry
• 30:57
  that they don't have a lot of knowledge.
• 30:59
  We're still a very niche industry, with real estate photography.
• 31:03
  And they're coming in and they might not completely understand
• 31:06
  some of the business logic and the workings of just how it's going to pan out.
• 31:13
  Sure.
• 31:14
  Okay.
• 31:15
  How do you handle questions of,
• 31:18
  specific equipment that's needed for the job?
• 31:21
  What if what if they don't have the gear that's needed for photos,
• 31:25
  video, drone, 360 tours, things like that?
• 31:29
  How what what does the conversation look like with a potential hire for that?
• 31:34
  Yeah.
• 31:34
  So with contractors they have to have that equipment.
• 31:37
  So think of a contractor.
• 31:38
  There's houses being built in my neighborhood right now.
• 31:41
  Somebody digging a foundation like I can't hire a foundation guy
• 31:45
  if he does not have a backhoe.
• 31:49
  Sure. He's not coming.
• 31:50
  Hey, will you rent me a back?
• 31:51
  No. Like, that's why I hired you.
• 31:53
  You need to have your own equipment.
• 31:56
  Now, I will say
• 31:58
  that we do help them facilitate
• 32:01
  getting their own equipment with our contractors.
• 32:04
  That if they have to buy all of their own own equipment
• 32:08
  and sometimes having enough money upfront to purchase all of the equipment
• 32:14
  can be limiting.
• 32:15
  And we don't want that to be limiting.
• 32:17
  So we have a program where we will purchase the equipment for them.
• 32:22
  They sign a contract with us.
• 32:25
  They agree that they're going to pay for 100% of that equipment
• 32:30
  over 24 months.
• 32:32
  We charge zero interest and they put a credit card on file
• 32:37
  that we charge every month for that payment,
• 32:41
  say, okay.
• 32:44
  Now, in contrast, if you're hiring employees,
• 32:47
  you are buying all of that equipment and supplying it to them.
• 32:52
  Right.
• 32:54
  And the flip side is and we haven't talked a lot about employees, I,
• 32:57
  I think an employee route is six of one half dozen of another.
• 33:01
  It it really is with an employee.
• 33:03
  You're buying that equipment.
• 33:04
  You're you're paying them less per job and
• 33:08
  and equivalents because now you are paying for all of that.
• 33:12
  You're supplying everything they need.
• 33:14
  You're covering more time on site if they need it.
• 33:21
  Okay.
• 33:24
  I know another question I've seen come through is how do I pay?
• 33:27
  What's the pay structure? Am I paying them?
• 33:30
  Like an hourly rate or is it a per
• 33:32
  job or a, you know, is it like a salary?
• 33:36
  Which would get weird if it's a contractor.
• 33:38
  So questions of how do you compensate for a contractor?
• 33:42
  I mean, obviously we know how we compensate for an employee, but,
• 33:47
  how do you compensate contractors? What?
• 33:49
  Yeah. That structure.
• 33:50
  Yeah.
• 33:51
  So with contractors, they get paid per each service that they perform.
• 33:56
  So if they do photos, they get X.
• 33:58
  If they do video, they get Y.
• 34:00
  If they do drone, they get Z.
• 34:02
  And that all adds together.
• 34:04
  And that's what they essentially invoice us for that job.
• 34:09
  So it doesn't matter square footage or how long the job takes.
• 34:13
  You know, it's not an hourly rate or a size rate, it's just an hourly rate.
• 34:18
  But because a job is larger with a larger home,
• 34:21
  then those rates do increase for them.
• 34:24
  Okay okay.
• 34:25
  So you have a because the job is bigger.
• 34:28
  Yes. Yeah. Got it okay. Good stuff.
• 34:33
  I'm trying to think of other things I've seen come through.
• 34:36
  How where do you find potential candidates as contractors or employees.
• 34:40
  How how do we advertise for openings that we have needs that we have.
• 34:45
  Yeah, yeah.
• 34:46
  I'm going to let me clarify one thing on the last question real quick,
• 34:49
  because I want to give you the, the comparison, between the two. So
• 34:53
  I am not saying because we use contractors that you should use contractors.
• 34:58
  I think that this is probably a good discussion to have with an attorney
• 35:03
  and an accountant in your area, and really, neither are that difficult.
• 35:08
  There's just a checklist with each that you need to abide by.
• 35:14
  Okay, so with a contractor you have to make sure they retain control.
• 35:18
  You have to make sure they have insurance.
• 35:20
  You have to make sure like we make sure that they are actively advertising their
• 35:24
  services, not real estate photography, but they're advertising their services.
• 35:28
  Maybe shooting weddings, families, babies doing artwork.
• 35:32
  We've we have found that that is an important thing, that they are
• 35:35
  a business they're advertising out there, even if it's just on social media.
• 35:40
  Okay.
• 35:41
  So there's a check there.
• 35:44
  Yeah. And we found that out the hard way.
• 35:45
  We were audited one year and it came back.
• 35:49
  And that was one thing they looked at like, hey, show me that
• 35:52
  this person, actually somebody else can hire them for something else.
• 35:57
  And so we had to go and we would show, hey, here's their Facebook
• 35:59
  page, here's their website, here's their publication.
• 36:03
  And that was a determining factor, because when you're their only source of income,
• 36:08
  at least Ohio doesn't like seeing that
• 36:11
  because you ultimately control them.
• 36:14
  So we changed a few things.
• 36:16
  Just like if you are your own business, a contractor, you have insurance, okay.
• 36:21
  That that is a big thing that contractors have.
• 36:25
  You have,
• 36:27
  you have your own equipment,
• 36:29
  you advertise your services, you have a EAI in,
• 36:35
  and you don't use your social as your business name.
• 36:39
  So all of these things tie in to a contractor versus employee.
• 36:43
  For those of you that might not be aware, EIN employer
• 36:46
  identification number correct?
• 36:48
  Correct. Yes.
• 36:49
  It's it just it's a process
• 36:51
  you have to go through with your state to say, hey, I'm a business.
• 36:54
  This is my business name.
• 36:56
  And then you get a number assigned to the business.
• 36:59
  Perfect, perfect.
• 37:01
  Let me let me contrast that. Sorry.
• 37:03
  This is a long point, but I want to make it
• 37:04
  because this is actually a very simple one versus the other.
• 37:08
  If you want to hire employees, what we find people are pain
• 37:13
  is people are typically are paying starting at the $25 an hour range.
• 37:18
  And as that employee then
• 37:22
  becomes certified with video and drone,
• 37:26
  we see a lot of companies having success and bumping them up to $30 an hour.
• 37:32
  And again,
• 37:33
  you might have to correlate this to your market,
• 37:38
  but 25 30 and then we see
• 37:41
  that people that other companies are bumping them up to 35.
• 37:46
  Then when that
• 37:47
  photographer becomes more of what you call a lead photographer or trainer.
• 37:51
  So when you can depend on that photographer helping on board,
• 37:55
  give feedback, train new photographers.
• 37:58
  That's we are seeing a lot of companies
• 38:00
  bump them up to 35 and they make more per hour.
• 38:04
  Make sense.
• 38:06
  So that is and this is essentially what we do at Wow to with contractors.
• 38:11
  Contractors over the years say, hey, I used to charge you X for photography
• 38:16
  and I've been doing this for X, I've been doing this for five years.
• 38:20
  Like I'm going to charge you x plus y. Okay.
• 38:23
  So rates go up. This is natural.
• 38:25
  It happens with contractors and photographers.
• 38:28
  But I don't want you to be scared of others of of either.
• 38:32
  Just make an informed decision of do you ultimately want control
• 38:35
  or are you okay knowing that the that the individual has control?
• 38:39
  Got it,
• 38:41
  got it.
• 38:42
  Okay.
• 38:43
  All right.
• 38:44
  So let's go to that question of then how do you find people to hire.
• 38:49
  Yes. So we have tried a lot of different ways
• 38:52
  and we have success with indeed.
• 38:56
  Okay.
• 38:56
  Just where we really have success that we find that it gets enough,
• 39:02
  it makes enough of a splash
• 39:04
  out there that we get good enough applicants and city to city, we find that
• 39:09
  Craig's market, fortunately for us, is just the most difficult we have.
• 39:13
  We have a lot of success in all of the other cities.
• 39:17
  And it's that guy in that market.
• 39:19
  He's just impossible to work with, I tell you.
• 39:25
  Yeah.
• 39:25
  We need to talk about that on your grade card episode,
• 39:30
  So we go to.
• 39:31
  Indeed.
• 39:31
  And we find that there is there is some secret sauce
• 39:36
  or the ability to get better in the way you post a job.
• 39:40
  Okay, so posting a job, you want to be clear about what it is.
• 39:44
  And you also need to entice them to want to look at the job and consider the job.
• 39:50
  We find that
• 39:51
  having custom questions on the indeed job post is very helpful.
• 39:57
  Okay.
• 39:58
  I stole this from Colleen Kydd.
• 40:01
  She they have a process where she has
• 40:04
  custom questions, and she asks them to do a video.
• 40:07
  Okay?
• 40:08
  A video of themselves.
• 40:10
  Because us connecting with that individual.
• 40:12
  Super important.
• 40:13
  Remember, we talked a lot in this show about just the personality
• 40:17
  of the photographer.
• 40:19
  Like, if we can cross that off with yes or no
• 40:22
  at the beginning by seeing them face to face on a camera, how do they interact?
• 40:27
  Do they speak well?
• 40:28
  Are they personable?
• 40:29
  Are they upbeat in the video?
• 40:32
  If they don't do the video,
• 40:33
  then they're not really that interested in the job right?
• 40:37
  So you have to have a good mix of trying to entice them, but also
• 40:41
  trying to weed enough of them out because you don't want to call 100 people.
• 40:49
  It's if you get to the finish line
• 40:53
  and you realize one thing about a person
• 40:57
  that disqualifies them for the job,
• 41:00
  you've essentially wasted all of that time and you have to restart the process.
• 41:05
  Yeah.
• 41:07
  Good stuff.
• 41:08
  Colleges, universities, great places to advertise as well.
• 41:13
  I'm imagining.
• 41:15
  Yeah.
• 41:16
  And actually we have we have a potential lead here in my market.
• 41:20
  And it was somebody that heard about our opening through their,
• 41:24
  their college advisor.
• 41:26
  And, he reached out to me and we had a great sit down yesterday,
• 41:29
  in fact, and, or. No, two days ago.
• 41:32
  And so that's that's another option.
• 41:34
  Contact your local universities, community colleges,
• 41:37
  you know that there's potential candidates there as well.
• 41:41
  Yeah, they love they love businesses
• 41:44
  that are looking to hire college graduates.
• 41:47
  So please contact them.
• 41:48
  They will persist for you.
• 41:49
  They will connect people with you.
• 41:52
  And that serves them well, serves the graduate well and serves you well.
• 41:57
  So reach out to them, put it on those boards, connect with those people.
• 42:01
  And that's a good possibility of candidates.
• 42:04
  Beautiful.
• 42:05
  All right.
• 42:07
  Well, Todd, any closing thoughts?
• 42:08
  We we had quite a few different little points.
• 42:10
  And I know this is
• 42:12
  we could go on another hour talking about how to hire people, but
• 42:16
  hopefully this is there's been some good nuggets here.
• 42:19
  But any any final thoughts you have
• 42:22
  just a couple.
• 42:23
  Craig I think the biggest thing is, is when you want to hire.
• 42:26
  I want you to take that extremely seriously.
• 42:29
  Hey, it's not a scary thing, but
• 42:33
  for the good of the person, the good of you,
• 42:36
  make sure you've thought about the process.
• 42:40
  Think about why would that person want to come in, and
• 42:43
  do they feel that they can grow with your company?
• 42:47
  Or is this just going to be a job?
• 42:49
  It is going to be very costly for you and you're going to
• 42:53
  you're going to want to have the tendency to think that you should stay solo.
• 42:58
  If you hire someone
• 43:00
  and they just churn one after the next three months, six months,
• 43:05
  it's painful
• 43:06
  for everyone involved, including your clients.
• 43:11
  It's not the best thing that your clients see.
• 43:13
  A whole lot of faces.
• 43:15
  So there is a ton of value
• 43:18
  in finding the right person paying someone.
• 43:21
  Well, that was one thing that I think as I started,
• 43:24
  I tried to find someone who would do it for cheap.
• 43:27
  Okay.
• 43:28
  And one of my favorite people's
• 43:31
  court judge Milian quotes
• 43:34
  sometimes that cheap ends up expensive.
• 43:38
  Yeah.
• 43:40
  So please don't try to pinch pennies.
• 43:43
  Do have a conversation with an attorney or your accountant or a business owner.
• 43:48
  This is an important thing that will help you grow.
• 43:51
  Remember, my 20K a month does not compare to the 350K a month.
• 43:56
  It's a good thing and you're going to screw it up fine.
• 44:00
  I just close with this. You're going to screw it up.
• 44:03
  And when
• 44:03
  you screw it up, you should go to the employee
• 44:07
  or the contractor and tell them you screwed something up.
• 44:11
  Apologize to them, ask them how they feel.
• 44:16
  What could you change to try
• 44:19
  to get through this screw up
• 44:22
  no matter what it is?
• 44:23
  Maybe it's just you don't connect with them enough.
• 44:25
  Maybe they feel like they don't have a relationship.
• 44:27
  Maybe you didn't train them well enough.
• 44:29
  You're going to do all of those things bad.
• 44:31
  I screwed all of them up in times ten.
• 44:34
  But as you slowly learn and you document
• 44:36
  the process, you will get the hang of it.
• 44:40
  And it is the best thing ever.
• 44:42
  Because now, 21 years, almost 22 years in the wow,
• 44:47
  I don't know if any of our new clients even know who I am.
• 44:51
  I don't know if any of our new clients in the last five years even know who I am.
• 44:57
  And that's a
• 44:57
  powerful thing because I show up on Friday nights
• 45:01
  now with friends, and I'm not an owner trap.
• 45:06
  And it's because I've leaned on a team, I've empowered a team, we've grown a team,
• 45:12
  we've taken care of a team, and they are taking care of me.
• 45:16
  A great way to end, a great way to end.
• 45:20
  The owner trap.
• 45:21
  I look forward to hearing more on that. at REPP.
• 45:24
  It's going to be good.
• 45:25
  Yeah, looking forward to it.
• 45:27
  All right.
• 45:27
  Well, guys, hopefully that was helpful to you.
• 45:29
  Feel free
• 45:30
  to post some comments on the YouTube channel if you have further questions.
• 45:33
  We'll, we'll try and answer those as best we can.
• 45:36
  Feel free to drop us an email.
• 45:38
  Hello@spiro.media.
• 45:40
  But like Todd said, talk with an attorney, a business coach,
• 45:45
  somebody that can mentor you a little bit more hands on and personally
• 45:48
  on that and, help you set up for, for some good success.
• 45:53
  Todd.
• 45:54
  Thank you. Appreciate it. My pleasure.
• 45:56
  All right. Well, you guys have a great week.
• 45:59
  Make sure you take some time to be thankful as we are heading into.
• 46:03
  Well, yeah, we're we're in November now.
• 46:05
  Season of Thanksgiving here in the US.
• 46:08
  Already celebrated Thanksgiving in Canada.
• 46:11
  So happy belated Thanksgiving to our Canadian brethren and sister in up there.
• 46:16
  But yeah, just take some time to be thankful, for your blessings
• 46:19
  and make sure you take some time to breathe. Have a great week.