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Angela Williams Gorrell on What to do When You Don’t Know What to Do · Future Christian

0:07
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
0:10
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
0:12
church in the 21st century. At the Future
0:15
Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors,
0:19
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and
0:21
practical wisdom to help you and your community of
0:24
faith walk boldly into the future. Whether you're
0:28
a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of
0:30
your faith community, this podcast is designed to
0:34
challenge, inspire, and equip you with the tools
0:37
you need for impactful ministry. And now for a
0:39
little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:44
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
0:47
Loren Richmond Jr. Is in conversation with the
0:50
Reverend Dr. Angela Williams Gorrell Dr. Angela is
0:54
a speaker, author, and consultant. She has taught
0:57
at several schools, including Yale and Baylor
1:01
University. Media sources such as the New York
1:04
Times, NPR, and the Washington Post have
1:08
highlighted her research. Dr. Angela is the author
1:11
of Always on the Gravity of Joy and a new book,
1:16
Braving Difficult what to do when you don't know
1:19
what to do. A reminder before we start today's
1:22
conversation, please take a moment to subscribe to
1:25
the podcast, leave a review, and share Future
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Christian with a friend. Connect with Loren,
1:30
Martha, and Future Christian on Instagram. Shoot
1:33
us an email at, uh, laurensonatemediapro uh.com
1:38
with comments, questions, or ideas for future
1:41
episodes. We appreciate your voice in how we
1:44
faithfully discern the future of the church.
1:57
>> Loren: All right, welcome to the Future Christian
1:58
Podcast. This is Loren Richmond Jr. And I am
2:01
pleased to be welcoming today. Reverend Dr. Angela
2:04
Williams Gorell. Hello and thank you for being
2:06
here.
2:08
>> Angela: Hi. Thank you so much for having me. Looking
2:11
forward to our conversation.
2:13
>> Loren: Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, I want to say
2:16
this from the top. A lot of times. I shouldn't say
2:19
a lot of times, but oftentimes folks that I'll
2:22
have on the podcast don't know, necessarily relate
2:24
to, like, the ethos or the. The overall themes of
2:28
the podcast, but just interesting authors like I
2:29
want to talk to. And this is certainly one of
2:31
those instances. So I'm hoping it can be relevant
2:35
to our listeners. So if you're listening, stay
2:38
tuned because this is a. Angela, uh, is a great
2:41
book, and I certainly found it helpful, and I hope
2:43
it's helpful for our listeners, too.
2:45
But before we get into that, anything else you
2:48
want to say about yourself? Um, what part of the
2:51
world do you find yourself in today?
2:53
>> Angela: Oh, um, I really appreciate, first of all, your
2:56
generous words about my book. Um, I definitely,
3:00
you know, when you put something out in the world,
3:02
um, you do it well. For me, I did it from a really
3:05
vulnerable place of Trying in my own life to
3:07
figure some stuff out. And then, um, you're like,
3:11
okay. Along the way, a lot of these other people
3:13
gave me wisdom, and I'm gonna pass it on. So thank
3:17
you so much for your words about that.
3:20
I live in Santa Fe, New Mexico, and I am home
3:22
today. Not on the road. Um, as I get older, I love
3:26
to travel, but also, like, not too much. I'm like,
3:30
I love to travel, to speak. I feel really honored
3:34
and excited whenever people come, you know, ask me
3:36
to. But I also love to be home. And so, especially
3:39
in the fall, Santa Fe is a gorgeous little
3:42
mountain town. And so it's not hot right now. It's
3:45
not freezing. It's just like the most perfect fall
3:48
day. I'm really, really grateful for it.
3:53
>> Loren: Well, thank you. Thanks for sharing that.
3:54
Share, if you would, kind of about your
3:56
background, your faith journey, what that looked
3:58
like in the past and what that looks like today.
4:01
>> Angela: I was raised in the church. Um, I definitely. I
4:07
was one of those babies whose parents were, like,
4:10
taking me to church the first Sunday after I was
4:12
born kind of thing. You know, something that most
4:15
parents in a post Covid, or we still have Covid,
4:18
but, you know, like, right after a pandemic, we
4:20
just can't really imagine it. But my parents.
4:23
Parents took me to church and, like, passed me
4:25
around to everyone the first Sunday after I was
4:27
born. So I was born into a really deeply
4:30
Christian, spiritual family. Um, and for me,
4:33
growing up, uh, for a number of reasons, it was
4:37
not easy to be the child that I was. Um, just I
4:41
had a really difficult speech impediment. I was
4:43
born deaf, like all these other things we could go
4:46
into. But, um, had a hard childhood. Just felt
4:49
really disconnected from others in a number of
4:52
ways. Um, and then my family, you know, had some
4:55
difficulties. And so for me, the church
4:58
especially, I started to notice in middle school,
5:00
was a sanctuary. For me, it was this place I could
5:03
go. It was a safe haven where people mentored me
5:06
and helped me and I think really saw me and helped
5:10
me to feel seen by God. And so for me, a lot of my
5:15
spirituality has been, um, sort of, I think,
5:19
grounded in those sentiments and experiences that
5:23
I had where I was like, I want to give this away
5:26
to other young people. I really saw this in my
5:29
own, um. Like, I felt this in my spirit in high
5:32
school and in college. Like, I want to go into
5:35
ministry so that I can create or help to nurture,
5:39
um, a sanctuary, safe havens, and other young
5:42
people's lives. I, um, want Them to feel seen by
5:45
God, heard by God. I want them to feel like God
5:48
cares and for them and loves them and that they
5:51
can live in community with other people. Um, and
5:54
so that was like the trajectory of my faith and my
5:59
life. And then about, um, let's see, almost a
6:03
decade ago, um, had a really difficult series of
6:07
events in my family where I had three family
6:10
members die in four weeks. In really tragic way.
6:14
Yeah, in really tragic ways. Um, and at the same
6:19
time I was working at Yale University, I was a
6:22
researcher, there was a. And I was teaching a
6:24
class called Life Worth Living. And I really felt
6:28
in my own spirit, like the collision of all these
6:31
things. And it really challenged my sense of who
6:36
is God? Um, when the world is suffering, where is
6:39
God? Um, I really dove deep into this time in my
6:44
life where I feel like God went silent. So for all
6:47
my life I felt like until this point a decade ago,
6:51
I felt like God sees us, God hears us, God loves
6:55
us. And then all of a sudden God was silent and I
6:57
was like, test it was. It tested sort of every
7:03
fundamental thing that I believed about God. And
7:06
so in the last decade, I've had to, um, I've had
7:11
to answer some big questions around faith myself.
7:14
I've had to, um, not. So what I found myself like
7:18
leading this class, Life worth living. And one of
7:21
the big questions we ask in this class is how
7:24
should we respond to suffering? If my life
7:28
involves suffering and pain, can my life still be
7:31
good? And so I found myself not only leading the
7:34
life worth living journey, but also asking and
7:37
answering these big questions for myself. And what
7:40
I've really, I think, come to like be at peace
7:43
with in the last few years is that there are
7:47
seasons of faith. And every few years or so, just
7:51
like there are seasons of every aspect of our
7:54
life, we have to kind of recommit to things. We
7:58
have to re examine our values, re examine our
8:01
beliefs, re examine our practices and uh, reflect.
8:06
And sometimes we edit those, delete those, um, we
8:10
add to those, you know, and that's been. So that's
8:13
been kind of the period of life that I've been in.
8:17
>> Loren: Yeah, this is really good stuff already.
8:19
I'm thinking. I want to ask this about, like you
8:22
mentioned, like the evaluation of practices. I'm
8:25
curious if there's any you're willing to share
8:27
that maybe something you've had to edit or adjust
8:30
as a practice, maybe take on or drop off. Mhm. For
8:34
this season of Life.
8:36
>> Angela: Yeah. I think one of the things that I've had to
8:39
um, well, I'm really grateful I had a spiritual
8:42
director, um, while I was getting my PhD that
8:44
really walked me through a number of, like,
8:48
different practices that I could become open to
8:50
right before all this tragedy struck in my family.
8:53
And, um. And by the way, like this, like. So my
8:57
family members died by suicide by opioid
8:59
addiction, and my nephew died at 22 of a heart
9:03
condition, like, really suddenly. So each. Each
9:06
death was not just, like, in rapid succession, but
9:10
it was the nature of the deaths that really, like,
9:12
pushed against a lot of my, like, the way that I
9:16
saw God, saw the world, saw, you know, human
9:19
beings, all this stuff. Um, so one of the things
9:22
that, um, my spiritual director, when I called her
9:25
and I told her about what had happened, and so I
9:27
moved away. I used to see her regularly when I
9:30
lived in Los Angeles, was getting my PhD. I moved
9:33
to Connecticut to work at Yale. And I called her a
9:36
number of months, like, about three months after
9:38
everything happened. And we met up when I was on
9:41
spring break. I went and saw her, and she said,
9:44
um. She said, you know, yeah, come see me. Come
9:45
see me. And. And we were sitting together, and she
9:49
was like, angela, silence is the language of God,
9:55
or M. It's one of the languages of God.
9:58
>> Loren: Right.
9:58
>> Angela: And I. So it helped me to re. Unders. Like, I
10:02
really began to understand the story of Elijah
10:04
when he's on the mountain and he's waiting for God
10:06
to pass by. Yeah, I started to understand that
10:10
story in a very, like, in my own way and in a very
10:13
personal, close way. Okay, God's not in the fire.
10:16
God's not in the earthquake. You know, God is not
10:18
in the whirlwind. And sometimes God is. It wasn't
10:22
until I really examined the story that I realized,
10:24
oh, wait, there are times in the Bible when God is
10:26
in all of these things. But for Elijah and in my
10:30
own life, like, God was in the silence. And if. If
10:34
I could look for it, listen for it in new ways in
10:38
my life. And so, um, meditation became a really
10:41
consistent practice in my life that became really
10:45
important for me. And so, um, it's. To this day,
10:50
over the last few years, I've had to learn a lot
10:53
about. About it in order to act. I mean, I've
10:56
just. Well, I've had to just practice it. Like,
10:59
meditation is not something that you can think
11:02
your way through.
11:03
>> Loren: Yeah.
11:04
>> Angela: Like, when I say learn about it, I just mean that
11:06
I had to, like, watch other people do it. I had to
11:09
do an app with it. You know, I had to start with
11:11
guided meditation and this and that. But, um,
11:14
about a year ago, I joined an online meditation
11:17
group and that helped me to practice it even more.
11:21
To sit with other people in silence for 20
11:23
minutes, um, just became a really powerful way of
11:29
like, uh, a few different things. One, in
11:30
meditation, you recognize when a thought comes to
11:34
you, but then you can imagine putting it into a
11:36
little boat and letting it float down the river
11:38
away from you. And it doesn't mean it's not
11:40
important. It doesn't mean it's not actually a
11:43
thing. You know, it just means I'm going to let
11:45
this go right now. I'm going to release this right
11:47
now. And so that's become, yeah, a way of
11:52
listening to God for me. That's been new and
11:54
different, but also really healing for me.
11:58
>> Loren: Yeah, such good stuff here. And I'm looking
12:01
forward to talking more about how the book and all
12:05
this connects. I want to start with.
12:08
So angel is the author of Braving Difficult
12:10
Decisions, what to do when youn Don't Know what to
12:13
Do. And um. Oh, I'm laughing at that subtitle.
12:16
Because this book kind of came to me when I was a
12:20
similar context in life where I didn't know what
12:23
to do. And I want to start with this. I'm trying
12:25
to find the quote here. You write about two ways
12:31
of going through life. Um, oops, I'm in the wrong
12:34
book. Keep going. Uh, two ways of going through
12:37
life. Cher, if you would talk about those two
12:40
different ways of going through life.
12:45
>> Angela: So you can go through life trying to manipulate
12:50
everything, fix everything, define everything,
12:54
figure out everything, manage everything. I mean,
12:58
that's one way to go through life. Just grasping
13:02
at control, ultimately at try. If I just. If I
13:06
could just do. And you can fill in the blank for
13:09
yourself. If I could just get this much more time,
13:12
if I could just do this with my money, if I could
13:15
just get this much more power or uh, recognition.
13:18
If I could just get this person to love me
13:21
differently. If I could just get this promotion,
13:25
write that book, be that much more powerful,
13:29
important. I would love my life better. Like I
13:33
would like life more. I would, you know, and so
13:36
it's just, it's a, it's an A, uh, One way of
13:39
moving through life is to grasp for control
13:42
consistently and then the other way. And so you
13:46
can picture this if you're listening, and I'm so
13:49
glad you're here, if you're listening with us, we
13:52
know that you, your time is so precious. And so if
13:55
you're cooking or walking or strolling somewhere
13:59
or driving. You're listening to us. You could
14:01
imagine just walking through life just like, with
14:04
your fingertips, trying to grasp at things, or
14:07
holding on tightly with your fists closed. Like,
14:11
that's one way of moving through life. Another
14:13
way, the other way is the invitation, I think of
14:17
the Christian faith, which is an invitation to
14:20
surrender.
14:21
>> Loren: Uh-huh.
14:21
>> Angela: It's released. It's letting go. It is saying, God,
14:27
I cannot. I don't have control over my finances,
14:32
other people. I have no power over my external
14:36
environment, like, but, God, you are the one to
14:40
whom everything belongs. And so I release it all
14:43
to you. I offer it, I make it an offering to you.
14:46
And even it's a way. Surrender also looks like
14:49
acceptance. M. It looks like I don't like the way
14:52
that this is right now, but it is the way that it
14:55
is. I accept my circumstances as they are. And
15:00
this way of moving through life, a way of, like,
15:03
powerlessness, of recognizing that, of surrender,
15:07
of offering, is something. I think it's a way of
15:11
inviting God in, because God has room and can move
15:16
when we live with open hands or in surrender.
15:19
>> Loren: Yeah, I want to read these words from your book
15:22
because they strike me as so similar to, uh, my co
15:26
host, Martha Tutornick, has a book, why Gather?
15:28
And in the book, she talks about ultra realism. I
15:32
think as a practice she's done during her marathon
15:35
training. Uh, but you have these quotations. At
15:38
this moment, my life is like this. I wish this had
15:45
different timing, but this is what it is. Like, I
15:50
am laughing through gritted teeth, Angela, here. I
15:54
do not like this, but it is what it is right now.
15:57
Like, I've had to say these things or very much
15:59
similar things to myself in the not too distant
16:03
past. And it was helpful for me. And I, uh,
16:05
frankly, I frankly, still say things like this to
16:08
myself when I think about, like, I have a
16:12
tendency. Like, we all do, I imagine. But for me,
16:13
I know I have a tendency to, like, compare myself
16:15
to other people and other situations and contexts
16:18
and careers and situations in life. And I'm like,
16:20
you know what? I've chose this. And I probably
16:25
shouldn't frame this quite so negatively. But for
16:27
me, it's a helpful reminder. Like, I am where I am
16:30
because my choices have consequences. So I
16:37
appreciate that, um, acceptance of framing reality
16:43
as it is. Like, again, these seem, like, harsh,
16:47
and maybe I'm making it, um, too harsh. And I'm
16:52
wondering. I think some might think, like, oh, we
16:55
should be more positive or optimistic or hopeful.
16:57
And I certainly don't think you'd be like that.
16:59
But what is it really valuable, this kind of stark
17:02
realism?
17:04
>> Angela: Because anything other than acceptance, I think,
17:08
looks like resistance. It looks, um, it looks like
17:17
resentment, worry, fear, anger. And I. And there's
17:25
righteous anger, but I just mean the kind that,
17:27
like, eats you from the inside out.
17:29
>> Loren: Yeah.
17:31
>> Angela: So I feel like the alternative is to live in
17:36
yesterday, uh, and to live in a really negative
17:40
perception of yesterday. Or it's to live in a
17:44
really, um, unhelpful tomorrow and unhelp, like, a
17:49
sort of idolized tomorrow instead of right now.
17:55
And I think that there's an invitation by so many
17:57
spiritual guides throughout history and that live
18:00
today, like, into the now, into the present. Like,
18:05
this is my life as it is. So even if I don't like
18:10
it, God help me to accept that this is the reality
18:15
of my life right now. And then if I can look at
18:18
the reality of my life really clearly right now,
18:22
m. With those open hands, with surrender, then I
18:25
think God can then say, okay, this is the next
18:29
right step. You know, Then that's where our prayer
18:32
becomes. So it's like, I accept that this is the
18:34
reality. Because for so many people, like, yet to
18:39
not live in the present and not accept the reality
18:42
as it is is either. Like. Like I said, they're
18:45
denying their reality. They're living in some
18:48
alternative reality, which is so not helpful to
18:51
them and probably really unhelpful to the people
18:54
around them. Um, you know, they're ignoring the
18:57
state of things, so they're not able to, like,
19:00
move forward. They're gonna be paralyzed, you
19:03
know, or they're living in what could have been if
19:05
I had just done A, B, or C. If I had not. If I had
19:10
avoided. Right. And then you're just living with
19:13
this regret and resentment.
19:15
>> Loren: Frustration.
19:17
>> Angela: Yeah. That just, like, weighs you down.
19:19
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah.
19:22
I want to read this. You write about prayer. This
19:25
full quote here. Because I. Again, I think it's so
19:27
good you write. People often think prayer is what
19:30
happens before or after something, but the prayer
19:33
is also a something. It's an action that draws
19:35
attention. It's an action that draws attention,
19:39
moves us, connects us, can be felt by others,
19:42
centers, calms, nurtures, teaches, guides. It is
19:46
doing something meaningful even when we aren't
19:48
entirely aware of what is happening. The same is
19:52
true of surrender.
19:56
>> Angela: Um, it's always so interesting to hear your words
19:59
right back to you. Um, but, yeah, I feel like that
20:03
that's something that I've learned in my own
20:05
spiritual life, you know, is that when I pray,
20:09
it's not just, you know, because like pray is. We
20:12
can think of it sometimes as like the first way of
20:14
going through life. If I could just manipulate God
20:17
enough, if I could, you know, just control God
20:21
enough, or my circumstance, if I could just
20:23
manifest this with my brain, like then this will
20:26
happen the way I want it to, but instead I feel
20:29
like prayer in my own study and experience of it.
20:33
Um, and like I said, a number of spiritual guides
20:36
who've taught me over the years, through their
20:37
books, through their TED talks, through their
20:39
podcasts, like, whatever, through their preaching
20:42
is like, no, prayer doesn't. It shifts me in
20:47
alignment with God. Like, prayer is literally like
20:50
aligning my will with God's. If I pray God, I want
20:54
to see, like, you see, I want my heart to break
20:56
for the things that break your heart. I want to
20:58
long for what you want me to long for. I want to
21:02
be in relationship with my circumstances in the
21:05
ways that you want me to. Um, you know, and so,
21:08
yeah, and then prayer is that calming. It can be
21:11
that shift, like God, release me from the bondage
21:14
of fear, of worry, of resentment, of regret, and
21:18
then instill in me humility and truth and love.
21:21
Whatever you need God to put into your spirit,
21:23
like we can be praying for those things, you know.
21:26
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah, it's really good.
21:29
Something that also stood out to me was you talk
21:31
about the importance of understanding feelings as
21:34
information, but not as stopping points.
21:38
>> Angela: Mhm.
21:38
>> Loren: Talk about that. The importance of making that
21:41
distinction.
21:43
>> Angela: Yeah. So I'm not somebody who says like, feelings
21:46
don't matter or, you know, feelings are, um,
21:49
always. I think some people feel like, feel, um,
21:52
like that feelings are always like there to like,
21:56
take you astray and like, don't give in to them,
21:59
you know, um, or whatever. But feelings are
22:01
information in the sense that they do signal
22:04
something. So feelings start as motions, energy
22:08
and motion in our body. And then we tell ourselves
22:12
the story of what has happened. And that story of
22:15
what has happened has really good data or
22:18
information for us, for us to attend to. Okay, so
22:22
I had an experience with this person, in this
22:25
place, with these people. I told myself this
22:29
thing. And so then we can say, okay, what's true
22:31
there? Is there something I need to be paying
22:33
attention to? Like, is there a reason why I need,
22:36
you know, that I'm, I'm noticing that I'm angry?
22:38
Is there a reason why I'm nervous? Or, um, is
22:43
there a reason that I need to fear? Like, is there
22:45
something like, you know, so I think that God can
22:48
speak to us through Our feelings, like, the way
22:51
that we make sense of our experiences and that God
22:56
gave us feelings for a reason, you know, And I
22:58
point out this in the book, that in the life of
23:01
Jesus, we see feelings like anger, we see him get
23:06
really upset, we see him weeping. And so they're
23:10
like, to, to express emotions is to be incredibly
23:14
human. You know, it's a very human, important
23:17
thing. But then I don't think we want to just sit
23:21
in difficult feelings. Especially. We don't want
23:23
to just live angry, live depressed, lived in, live
23:27
in gloom, live fearful. No, like, we want to use
23:30
this information. We want to work through our
23:33
feelings constructively and then, you know, figure
23:36
out the right next step.
23:38
>> Loren: Yeah, I think that's so important because, like, I
23:40
see the opposite sometimes where it's like, my
23:42
feelings are facts, my feelings are gospel. And,
23:45
like, and I appreciate your point you're making
23:48
of, like, what is, what can I learn from my
23:52
feelings? What are they teaching me rather than me
23:54
just staying in them?
23:57
I want to move on to this idea that I think is
24:01
very profound and also, I think sometimes hard to
24:08
accept. I was thinking about, I'm not sure if
24:10
you're familiar with Heather Thompson Day. I had
24:14
her on podcast, like, three years ago, and she
24:16
wrote, I think, this book, like, when it's not
24:19
your turn. And basically, if I remember correctly,
24:21
it was basically like, how to similar kind of book
24:25
to what you wrote, like, how to deal with life
24:27
when things don't seem to be going your way. And,
24:31
like, I feel like she had a very similar theme of,
24:33
like, trusting that we're part of God's bigger
24:36
story. And again, I want to just read this quote
24:39
here because I, I, it was profound to me. You
24:42
write, you and me were also part of a great story
24:45
being told. And I like that you capitalize the G
24:48
and the S and great story. We participate in this
24:51
story. This is a story that M mysteriously says,
24:54
God loves everything and made it all good.
24:57
Everyone belongs, and it's all being restored. And
24:59
resurrection, not death, always, always gets the
25:04
last word. I mean, I read your book, so, uh, you
25:11
know, I have some sense that you've been through
25:13
some challenging stuff. Like, I read this, I'm
25:19
getting emotional myself here. I read this at a
25:21
challenging time in my own life. So those words,
25:23
like, stuck out to me big time. And I had to,
25:26
like, kind of trust, like, God's not through with
25:29
me yet. God has a plan. God has a purpose. There's
25:31
a bigger story. Yeah, like, what was helpful for
25:35
you to kind of just Trust and lean into that.
25:40
>> Angela: Yeah. Um, there's so many things I could say, but
25:46
first of all, Loren, thank you so much for, um,
25:50
your vulnerability in this moment and just saying,
25:52
you know, I mean, I'm so glad that we are
25:55
connecting over both of us having these times in
25:57
our life where we're like, okay, I thought I knew
26:00
who I was, or, like, I thought I had things
26:03
figured out, and then all of a sudden, you know,
26:05
I'm m. At this crossroads, or, uh, you know, I
26:08
don't know if I have everything figured out or I
26:11
don't know what to do. And I'm trying to seek you,
26:14
and I'm trying to hear from you. Uh, I think the
26:19
thing that I needed to hear in the journey of
26:22
writing this book and in the two big decisions
26:25
that I was going through a discernment period with
26:30
that really shaped this book, um, was that even if
26:35
I made a wrong turn, even if I didn't do the right
26:38
thing, it was this realization one day that, thank
26:44
God, like, my. My decisions don't. Like, God's
26:49
story that God is telling in the world don't hinge
26:51
on any decision that I make.
26:53
>> Loren: Yeah. Uh, yeah.
26:53
>> Angela: You know, and that wherever I go in this life,
26:56
whatever I do, whatever I say, like, all of us,
26:59
like, are caught up in the grace and the love of
27:01
God. That. And that story, like, covers it all,
27:05
that I still get to participate in that story, and
27:07
God's still telling that story. Like, I. You know,
27:10
and so it's like, I both feel the insignificance
27:15
of my decisions, which was, like, really helpful
27:18
to me. Um, but then I also feel the significance
27:21
of my life. Like, you're caught up in that story,
27:24
as is everyone else, Angela, you know, and I. And
27:27
I was just. Yeah. And so it comforted me. It was
27:31
like this. This word from God that I really needed
27:33
at that time in my life.
27:35
>> Loren: Uh-huh. Yeah. Again, again, like, this feels much
27:38
like the. The episode with Heather Thompson Day in
27:41
her book. Like, because it's like, I think we have
27:44
this sometimes a assumption that we can, like,
27:48
frustrate or ruin God's plan and purpose. Like,
27:53
which is. Which is kind of, like, super backwards
27:57
if we think about, like, that humans could, like,
27:59
frustrate God's attempts or God actions to, like,
28:03
bring about wholeness and healing in the world.
28:05
Like, surely God has plans, Right? Like, God has
28:09
backup plans on backup plans. Right?
28:11
>> Angela: Yeah.
28:12
>> Loren: So, I mean, it's a helpful reminder.
28:16
>> Angela: Absolutely. Um, and I think, too. I don't. I can't
28:22
remember If I tell this story in the book, Loren,
28:24
maybe you'll be able to tell me whether I do or
28:26
not. You know how it like, you like, tell so many
28:28
stories, you live so many stories, and then you're
28:30
like, did I write that down? I don't know. Um, but
28:34
I was sitting in class. Um, I was, I'm still a
28:38
professor. I was, I taught just like an hour and a
28:41
half ago. I love teaching so much. Um, but I was
28:45
sitting in class a few years ago and, um, the
28:50
class was, um, called Jesus and the Meaning of
28:52
Life. And on this particular day, we were thinking
28:56
about death and dying. And, um, the class, like,
29:00
looked at all these different aspects of life, um,
29:02
in this particular day happened to be death and
29:05
dying. And then we do the, almost the whole class.
29:07
And then one of my students, um, she raises her
29:10
hand and she says, um, on this day, on this day
29:15
when I was in high school. So she's a college
29:18
student now, right? So she says, on this day when
29:19
I was in high school, my dad died by suicide.
29:22
>> Loren: Wow.
29:23
>> Angela: And she said, after my dad died, um, I went on
29:27
this, like, search for religion because I grew up
29:31
in a secular household. I grew up in a household
29:34
where we didn't really feel like we needed
29:36
religion. And then all of a sudden when my dad
29:39
died, I was like desperate for it. And so I, like,
29:41
I, I sought out this, you know, I learned all
29:43
about this religion and this and this and this.
29:45
But like, Christianity was the most compelling
29:48
religion to me. I was so compelled by the life and
29:51
teachings of Jesus. And then she, she said, um,
29:58
she started to cry like I am, but she said, did,
30:01
did God need my dad to die by suicide for me to
30:05
find religion, like, to find God, like. And I just
30:12
felt the spirit say to me in that moment as a
30:14
professor, like, ask them, ask them. And so I,
30:18
like, looked at all my students and we're all
30:20
sitting in a circle. That's how we did this class,
30:23
all 20 of us. And I said, what do you say? What do
30:28
you think? And for a question like this, it felt
30:32
brave to like, let other people respond. Um, and I
30:37
waited for like two, three minutes. It was like a
30:39
long pause. And I was just like, felt the spirit
30:43
there, like, Angela, just wait. Just wait. And
30:46
then one of my students, he said, he called her by
30:49
her name. Uh, and then he said, God has always
30:56
loved you. God has always been seeking you. Mhm.
30:59
God has always wanted you to know God. But maybe
31:03
it was just in this moment after your dad's death
31:06
that you could see it.
31:08
>> Loren: Wow.
31:11
>> Angela: And it was after this in class that I was able to
31:14
listen to the passage in Romans where it says,
31:17
like, you know, all things work together for good.
31:21
>> Loren: Yeah.
31:22
>> Angela: I had always hated that scripture, Loren, because
31:25
I was like, how is this good? You know? But I
31:29
started to see it differently where it's like this
31:31
thing and that thing and this horrible thing and
31:35
that really, really messed up thing and this thing
31:38
that broke my heart and this way that I went, that
31:40
was wrong or whatever. All this somehow
31:45
miraculously goes toward the good of God. I don't
31:49
know how, but God's ultimate good, everything gets
31:52
caught up in it.
31:54
>> Loren: I feel like we need to give that just a moment to
31:56
sit itself. Thank you for sharing that.
32:01
I do want to talk also, and I feel like this feels
32:05
so, so light compared to the profound story you
32:10
just shared. But I feel like it's, it's helpful to
32:14
think about and I suppose it's related. You talk
32:17
about choosing acute pain versus a dull ache.
32:23
>> Angela: Yeah.
32:23
>> Loren: On 131 you say sometimes we are also choosing
32:26
between a dull ache that we have learned to live
32:28
with and a gut wrenching pain that seems
32:30
unbearable. Most of us prefer chronic pain over
32:33
acute pain. And again, I don't want to speak for
32:36
you here, but, um, I'm thinking, for instance, the
32:39
acute pain you're talking about is not like that
32:42
story. Like we're not choosing suffering for
32:44
ourselves, we're not choosing heartbreak. Like,
32:47
let me frame it this way and you can tell me if
32:50
I'm on track here. Like, uh, a year ago, over a
32:57
year ago, I realized I was in a job. Like, I
32:59
really didn't like, and I didn't really see a
33:01
future for myself and didn't really feel like it
33:04
jive with what I want for my, for my life and my
33:06
future, my family, all that. So like, I kind of
33:10
was like, do I just kind of keep grinding along
33:14
this kind of like chronic pain of like being low
33:18
key, miserable and unhappy and grumpy at home
33:21
because I have to go to work this job I don't
33:23
like, blah blah. Or to kind of take this acute
33:27
pain of like making sort of a jump and leap of
33:30
faith of like, oh, this is super scary. So, yeah.
33:34
Does that track with what you're trying to get
33:37
across here?
33:38
>> Angela: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I just. This is,
33:45
um, the reality for a lot of us is that, I mean,
33:51
in general, many of us will, in making a decision,
33:57
choose pain. You know, it doesn't. I mean, some of
34:01
us are choosing between two good Things. And if
34:03
that's you today, amazing. Like, and my book,
34:06
hopefully, you know, and like, and hopefully my
34:09
book helps people that are also choosing between
34:11
two. Two really good things or multiple good
34:13
things. But oftentimes, at some point in our adult
34:18
lives, we are choosing between two really hard
34:21
things, you know, and. But one of my friends,
34:25
Michaela, you know, she pointed this out to me one
34:28
day. Like, you're choosing between acute pain and
34:30
chronic pain. And sometimes. And so, yeah, it's
34:34
like the chronic pain, you know, being you knew
34:37
how to be at your workplace, you knew how to deal
34:40
with like, you're like, it's Monday morning again.
34:42
I know how to get through Monday. I know how to,
34:45
you know, I know how this goes. And so it's a pain
34:49
you've learned to live with, a pain you've learned
34:51
to manage. It doesn't mean you enjoy it, but that
34:55
familiarity, there's almost a comfort there. Like,
34:58
I know what I'm doing when we're ripping the band
35:02
aid off, so to speak, and we're choosing this
35:05
other hard thing that we don't know what kind of
35:07
pain is going to bring us or the acuteness of it
35:11
sometimes is like all of a sudden I had these
35:14
colleagues and I don't anymore.
35:16
>> Loren: Uh-huh.
35:17
>> Angela: I knew where I was going on Monday morning. Now I
35:20
don't anymore. Someone else was paying my
35:22
healthcare or my retirement, someone else isn't.
35:25
Or I chose this other job. And you know, and even
35:29
though it's different, like, there's still like,
35:32
there's this, um, like this lack of familiarity
35:35
that's really hard for me or whatever it is. You
35:37
know, and the same thing happens in relationships,
35:40
like when, you know, like, I shouldn't be in a
35:42
relationship with this family member anymore or
35:44
this friend or this romantic partner and you make
35:48
that decision. Like if it's been a lot of chronic
35:51
pain, like if you have had this relationship,
35:53
you've known this family member your whole life,
35:55
but you realize, like, this is a really unhealthy
35:59
relationship for me. Like this is causing really
36:02
low self worth. This person is damaging my sense
36:05
of self. We're constantly arguing, whatever it is.
36:08
>> Loren: Mhm.
36:10
>> Angela: But that's like familiar. It feels like home. To
36:13
then break off that relationship with that person.
36:16
It's like, oh, you know, it's. It's a new kind of
36:19
pain that you have to learn to deal with.
36:21
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
36:23
So this is a podcast that we aim to speak to
36:28
pastors and church leaders. So I kind of want to
36:31
make one, I suppose comment or section to someone
36:38
who's in that position, if only because I think
36:41
these things we're talking about still really
36:43
matter, uh, and are very applicable in many parts
36:46
of American Christianity. It seems like there's
36:49
two just bad choices for churches and leaders.
36:53
It's a tough situation for many. Churches are
36:57
struggling economically, financially. There's no
37:01
clear future ahead. And I know because I felt this
37:06
in my own times in professional ministry where it
37:09
feels like what you're putting out there just
37:12
being wasted. So I kind of want to tie this to one
37:15
of the things you talk about in your book of
37:17
nothing being wasted in God's economy. Because
37:20
I've preached that. I preached, uh, at a church
37:24
closing that had been around for 150 years and I
37:28
preached like nothing is ever wasted in God's
37:29
economy or something to that effect. Right. And
37:32
like I preached at my own church closing like a
37:35
few years ago. And like, I didn't, first of all, I
37:39
didn't say it. Second of all, I wouldn't have
37:40
believed it in the moment. You know, like, it's so
37:43
much harder when you're in that context inside
37:47
versus outside. So I mean, I think again, a
37:51
profound point you made. What else do you have to
37:53
share there and what thoughts do you have for
37:55
those who have been or are in a ministry setting?
38:01
>> Angela: First of all, if you're listening and this is you,
38:05
and you're making really difficult decisions for a
38:09
team of people that are impacting an organization,
38:13
you're making difficult decisions that are
38:15
disrupting. Like you're having to let people go.
38:19
Mhm. Your budget is shrinking, your building needs
38:22
to be sold, whatever it is. Or like you feel like
38:27
no matter which way you're turning, that there's
38:31
just been pain left and right. That no matter like
38:33
what you preach, what you say, what you do, it's
38:36
not enough for people. It's not reaching people.
38:39
>> Loren: Right.
38:40
>> Angela: You know, whatever it is like that every decision
38:42
is not growing. Um, yeah, I just, I feel, I feel
38:50
like so first of all, I just want to say, like I
38:53
lament with you. Like I have just, I have been
38:57
there in a variety of ways in my own life and work
39:02
where it just feels like this thing like felt so
39:05
senseless, so ridiculous, so hard, so
39:09
irredeemable, you know? Um, but what I, what I
39:15
meant by that is, and I want to be like so careful
39:19
here.
39:20
>> Loren: Mhm.
39:22
>> Angela: You know, I don't think that God like causes
39:25
suffering in people's life. I don't think that God
39:27
is like, let me give you this, so that, like, this
39:31
really hard thing so that you can cultivate
39:34
strength or resilience. Like, I really. That's
39:37
just not. Not how I can relate to God. It's not
39:41
how I make sense of, um, my theology, of my
39:44
understanding of God. Um, and at the same thing,
39:48
at the same time, I just want to say, like, I
39:51
think that anything that we offer to God, anything
39:56
that's a part of an offering, like, any part of
39:58
our life can get caught up in that great story and
40:02
be. And be moved toward the good. Like that. I
40:07
just. That's what I mean by that is, um, my friend
40:11
Willie Jennings. He's a professor at Yale. He says
40:15
we can make our pain productive without glorifying
40:18
or justifying suffering.
40:20
>> Loren: Ah, yeah. Yeah.
40:22
>> Angela: And I think that that's where this is, like,
40:24
adjacent to that is, like, everything that
40:28
happens, like, you know, can be moved toward the
40:32
good. Everything that happens, we can use, with
40:35
God's help, um, to do something meaningful in the
40:41
world. Um, and that even if something ends, even
40:45
if something breaks, even if something, you know,
40:48
like that it was. It doesn't mean it wasn't ever
40:51
meant to be. It doesn't mean that it was nothing.
40:55
It doesn't mean that it shouldn't have been. You
40:57
know what I mean?
40:58
>> Loren: Like, yeah, yeah.
41:01
>> Angela: That sometimes if, like, things end really poor,
41:04
poorly, we're just like, oh, that should never
41:06
have been. And I. I think we don't want to write
41:09
it all off.
41:11
>> Loren: Yeah, Yeah. I think 100%, I would agree. Like, I
41:14
think there is this tendency. I don't know if it's
41:17
American culture or white American culture or what
41:21
it is, but I do think there's that tendency. Like,
41:24
if it was. If it was great, but it didn't end
41:26
well, it's like, well, we shouldn't have done it
41:28
at all.
41:29
>> Angela: Yeah.
41:29
>> Loren: Um, and I appreciate your point about that being
41:32
two different things.
41:34
I do want to ask. I think this is coming to mind.
41:39
Like, I just posted something on Substack at the
41:42
time of this recording. Basically, like, I'm sure
41:47
you. You probably get this sense too, like,
41:49
America, we're probably going to go through some
41:52
tar. We've been going through some challenging
41:53
times, and we'll probably still have more
41:55
challenging times in front of us where there's
41:59
going to be a lot of, like, difficult decisions to
42:01
be made that are not going to feel good in the
42:03
moment. Like what? Like, thinking about it from
42:07
the context of this book, like, I assume to some
42:10
extent you're on the other side, if only because
42:12
you had the context and where we'll write the book
42:15
and write it down and observe. Like, hey, I'm
42:18
somewhat through this. Like what? You know, you
42:22
talked about prayer and meditation sustaining you.
42:24
Like, what kind of would you help or offer to
42:29
people to like, latch onto as a thought of hope?
42:33
If that makes sense.
42:35
>> Angela: You mean like during this particular moment in
42:37
American history?
42:39
>> Loren: I mean, you could answer that however you feel,
42:42
whether it's personally or whether it's
42:44
societally. Like thinking about just being in
42:50
tough times, having been through it yourself. What
42:57
does the other side look like?
43:02
>> Angela: I think one of the things is that healing is
43:09
possible. Um, and that you won't always feel the
43:14
way that you do. Um, and so, and I don't mean like
43:20
healing in the way of forgetting or healing and
43:23
you know, healing in the way of like, oh, that
43:26
thing, when I think of it, doesn't like make me
43:28
sad ever again.
43:29
>> Loren: Right.
43:30
>> Angela: But I just mean that like my sister Steph, whose
43:33
son is the one that died, Mason Steph says, you
43:37
know, once you have a death like this in your
43:39
life, like, you always carry a grief backpack.
43:42
Like, you just like, are always wearing that
43:45
backpack everywhere you go. And I really agree
43:48
with her. But the thing is, is like, you do learn
43:51
to move through life with it and you carry it
43:54
differently in different seasons of your life.
43:57
>> Loren: Mhm.
43:58
>> Angela: And so if you're in this like season of just like
44:00
your heart is totally broken and you're just
44:03
having a hard time getting out of bed every day,
44:06
like there is a day that comes when you feel like,
44:10
oh my goodness, like I've gotten on the road
44:13
toward healing. Like, I'm starting to feel joy
44:16
again. Like joy is creeping in and I'm giving
44:19
myself over to it, as Mary Oliver would say. And
44:22
like, I can't really help it where the light's
44:25
coming in. I'm noticing the goodness of others, of
44:30
God, of my life in this small way, like again, you
44:33
know. And so I do think that, um. Yeah, that you,
44:39
you'll carry it differently over time. Um, and
44:43
that the light does eventually come back in.
44:46
>> Loren: Yeah, that's good. That's good.
44:50
Well, I want to keep talking about this, but also
44:53
like, I want to respect your time and also want to
44:56
respect like just your emotional, uh, and my own
44:59
emotional kind of like limits here. So I really
45:01
appreciate you sharing for listeners. The book is
45:04
braving, ah, difficult what to do when you don't
45:08
know what to do. We didn't even talk about this. I
45:12
feel like you talked about the importance here of
45:15
like, Making kind of values which we didn't even
45:17
talk about, which is. Again. Right. Something that
45:19
I'd highly recommend. It was helpful for me just
45:22
to kind of, like. Because if, uh, I feel like when
45:25
you're kind of in that real, like, stuck point,
45:27
it's like, I don't even know what to do, then you
45:29
can have those kind of list of values, like, this
45:31
is what really matters to me, and I'm not being
45:33
overwhelmed by my feelings in the moment, and
45:36
blah, blah, blah. But again, braiding difficult
45:38
decisions. What to do when you don't know what to
45:40
do. Highly recommend it. Go check it out.
45:43
Uh, let's take a quick break, and we'll come back
45:45
with some closing questions. All right, we're back
45:51
with Dr. Angela. Reverend. Doctor. I want to give
45:54
you your full titles there. Reverend, Dr. Angela
45:57
Williams Girrell. Thank you so much for your time.
45:59
Really appreciate your honesty and forthrightness
46:02
in our conversation. So, closing questions.
46:06
Hopefully, they'll be a little lighter than our
46:07
past here conversation.
46:09
>> Angela: We'll see.
46:12
>> Loren: If you're pope for a day, what might that day look
46:15
like for you?
46:17
>> Angela: Yeah, my friend Liz, um, says that I live in the
46:20
deep end of life, Loren. So I don't. Yeah. I don't
46:25
know how to do small talk. Um, the thing is, is
46:27
that the first thing when I saw this question,
46:30
when I was looking over your. Your questions for
46:32
today, and I was like, well, I couldn't be Pope
46:34
because I'm a woman. Um, and so I guess if I got
46:38
the ability, if I was Pope for a day, I'd want to
46:40
highlight what women throughout history have done
46:43
for the church.
46:44
>> Loren: Okay. Yeah.
46:46
>> Angela: And be like, hello. Why don't we have any women
46:49
that could be Pope?
46:50
>> Loren: But, yeah, I'm writing that down. That's good. I
46:54
like that. Yeah. See, I. I appreciate your not
47:00
getting stuck on that. Some people, like, get
47:02
stuck on the mechanics of that. Like, so thank
47:04
you. Thank you for that.
47:07
>> Angela: And I highlight a few of them in my book.
47:09
Perpetua, Dorothy Day, Dolores Huerta, and on and
47:15
on. But.
47:16
>> Loren: Okay.
47:16
Well, that leads well into our next question of a
47:19
theologian or historical Christian figure you
47:22
might want to meet or bring back to life.
47:24
>> Angela: Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Anyone in my book that is
47:27
not still living, I would want to meet, because
47:29
they're all just sheroes and heroes to me. But I
47:33
actually, you know, I think my spiritual hero is
47:38
Howard Thurman. Um, it's been said that the
47:42
Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Had two things
47:45
on him at all times. A copy of the Bible and a
47:48
copy of Howard Thurman's Jesus and the
47:51
Disinherited. Um, so, I mean, he was an incredible
47:55
mentor and spiritual guide to the Reverend Dr.
47:58
King. But also, it was just so many. And I would
48:01
love to sit with Howard Thurman and have dinner
48:05
with him. I love meditations on the heart as well,
48:08
like an incredible little devotional book. So, um,
48:12
yeah, just a well of wisdom.
48:15
>> Loren: Yeah. Thanks for sharing that.
48:17
Okay. I suppose here with your more. You know,
48:21
living from a more what? How do you say it?
48:23
Serious, or your friends say it from a more
48:24
serious place?
48:26
>> Angela: Oh, I live in the deep end of life.
48:27
>> Loren: In the deep end. Yeah. What do you think history
48:29
will remember for our current time and place? I
48:31
guess I should put some parentheses. This is.
48:34
These are meant to be quick hitters, so don't go
48:36
too deep.
48:37
>> Angela: Yeah. Um. Yeah, sadly, I feel like we're going to
48:43
remember the division that I don't. I don't know
48:46
that there. There's never been a point in my own
48:48
adult, like, in my life on this planet that I've
48:52
ever seen each side, like, villainize the other as
48:56
much as we do. The lack of, like, respect and
48:59
diplomacy for the other side. Um, and so just a
49:02
really huge rift between Republicans and
49:05
Democrats. I think we will remember that.
49:09
>> Loren: Yeah. What do you hope for the future of
49:12
Christianity?
49:15
>> Angela: I forgot about this one, Loren. Um, everything.
49:20
No, I'm just kidding. Um, I mean, I think my
49:25
greatest hope would be that the great story that
49:27
you, you know, you quoted, like, everything.
49:32
Everyone belongs. Everyone, you know, like, I. I
49:37
just hope that that, like, becomes more famous.
49:40
Like, the way that we talk about the gospel as
49:43
this, like, expansive love.
49:47
>> Loren: Uh-huh.
49:47
>> Angela: I feel like we've sort of lost, like. I don't know
49:50
that that's, like, the first thing that comes out
49:52
of people's mouths or, you know, comes to people's
49:55
imaginations when they think of Christian. I don't
49:58
know that God's expansive love is the thing that
50:01
comes to people's mind that are not Christians,
50:03
and I wish it were so. Yeah.
50:05
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah. Well, uh, where can people connect
50:10
with you? Find out more about you. Copy the book,
50:13
all that stuff.
50:14
>> Angela: Yeah. You can buy Braving difficult decisions
50:17
wherever books are sold. All kinds of, like, cool
50:20
M. Independent stores, too, like, bookshop and
50:23
everything. Um, and then. And you could also just
50:26
go to your local bookstore, and if you ask them to
50:28
order a book for you, they will. And so if you
50:30
want to support a local store, you can, too. I
50:33
love to connect with people on Facebook,
50:36
Instagram, like or through my website where you
50:39
can, um, if you, if you email me through my
50:41
website, on any page, there's a thing at the
50:43
bottom, I will respond to you. So DM me, message
50:47
me. I'd love to hear from you.
50:50
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah. Cool. Cool. Well, again, I really
50:52
appreciate your time, really appreciate the
50:55
conversation and your book. Like I really
50:58
recommend to others. So thank you again. We, uh,
51:00
always leave folks with a word of peace. So may
51:03
God's peace be with you.
51:11
>> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian
51:13
Podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is produced
51:16
by Resonate Media. We love to hear from our
51:19
listeners with questions, comments and ideas for
51:21
future episodes.
51:23
>> Angela: Visit.
51:23
>> Loren Richmond: Visit our website at, uh, future-christian.com and
51:26
find the Connect with us form at the bottom of the
51:29
page to get in touch with Martha or Loren. But
51:32
before you go, do us a favor, subscribe to the POD
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to leave a review. It really helps us get this out
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to more people.
51:39
>> Loren: Thanks.
51:40
>> Loren Richmond: And go in pen.