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S3 Ep 19: Using the Help Action · Bards and Barrels

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Help, I need some bunny help.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: Not just any bunny help.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know I need some one.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_02: I tried it.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_02: Because it feels unnatural.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: Man, our homage to the Beatles, and then The Slow Pole Again by Phil.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna get demonically gonna get mad at me about it.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, there's Koopa the dungeon dog.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it's time for another episode of Barnes and Barrels.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, tonight we're gonna be chatting a little bit if you're been sleeping over there the whole time when he chooses then to get up, right?
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh tonight we're gonna be talking about the help action, uh, and then also some other ways that you can help during uh uh combat and things like that.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so guys, how are we doing tonight?
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: Are you ready to help me out?
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: We'll give it our best shot.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure that I'm proficient in the help that you need.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: We're emphasizing random words.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: Brett, what are your thoughts on help?
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: He did the downshift and we did the upshift.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like it means something different when you say that.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: Oh no, like I intuitively put a question mark at the end of that.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: Help?
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: Help.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: Help did you okay?
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: So the help.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: Now the Ross is dying.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, I'm gonna like fan myself up.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: What fill fill us in the fill, fill us in?
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, now we got Phil, Phil.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: Phil Phil.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: We're off to a great start here.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: Hope everybody is it's super entertained.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: This is gonna be great.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_02: But the unfortunate part is not everyone else is as primed as we are.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: So that's no, they're lost.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: We should have started this episode with a disclaimer.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's like a two-beer minimum for this one.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's true.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: So, Phil, would you please fill us in a little bit on what the help action is?
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: Ross, allow me to fill you in.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: When we take the help action, we can do a couple things, right?
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: So, uh, first of all, one thing to know about help it is an action, right?
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: So we're talking action economy.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_02: In your turn, if you're in combat, one of your action choices could be to attack, or there are lots of choices, right?
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: But help is one of those actions.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: So this would be basically replacing an option to attack if you're in combat.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: Just want to point that out.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, you can do two things here.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: Basically, you can assist an alley.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: Assist an alley.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: Assist an ally.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_02: I'd like to see how that works.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_02: There's no E in that word.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: Assist an ally uh with an ability check, um, or to assist on an attack role.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_02: So when it comes to that ability check, you can only help someone if you are proficient with the skill or the tool that they're making their ability check with.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: I can't help someone with a medicine check if I'm not proficient with the medicine skill.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: That makes sense, because you wouldn't be able to help somebody if you didn't know what the hell you were doing.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_02: It does make sense.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: And in 2024, they have specifically stated that in the 2020 excuse me, in the 2020 rule book, in the 2014 rules, if you look back to those, it actually doesn't specify that, but it was kind of an unwritten rule.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: So they have set it in stone in the 2024 rule book.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: It is written out, you have to be proficient.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're I'm a new player, why would I do this when I could just do the action myself?
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: That's a great question, Brad.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think it's it's gonna be one of those situations where it's like you know, you're you're facing the the boss or something like that, and you want to convince them or something.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh two players with persuasion, proficiency and persuasion or something like that.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like you do and don't need to be proficient in it, but for me to help you with that, I would need to be proficient in helping you persuade somebody to I don't know, not attack, not attack, get the hell out, something.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_02: But I I'm thinking that like in a in a medicine check kind of scenario, well, you're right though.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: If you're proficient, to be quite frank, I wouldn't help.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_02: I would just do it myself.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: That is what I would do.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: If you're trying to do the rogue in him, you're right.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: If you're trying to okay, there if you're doing a rogue and if you're trying to lockpick a safe, maybe you have two ears up to the lockpicking and you're trying to hear the tumblers.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_02: I do like that.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: Or like uh uh so one of the things the other side of this is an attack role, and I think that's maybe where I feel like I'm more helpful is as a distraction, right?
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_02: Or if the bard's gonna get up there and do a performance whatever check, and I'm going to assist them because I'm distracting the crowd for how terrible of a job the bard is doing up on stage, something like that is probably where uh maybe Phil as a player would more excel.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_02: That low charisma is shining through right now.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: I I would say the help assisting on an ability check is more beneficial outside of combat.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you're trying to lockpick, if you're trying to lift the heavy object, and more than one person can assist with picking up the heavy thing, and it doesn't just have to be the barbarian.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: I I so this is a bit of a deep cut, so brace yourselves.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: But if for those of you that have seen Ghostbusters in the first Ghostbusters movie, when they're trying to convince the mayor, like, let us out of jail so we can help you, blah, blah, blah.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: When he when Ray stands, is like, this is like real, like biblical stuff, and then Pete Venckman comes in behind him.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, Yeah, dogs and cats liking each other, something, something, something that's like helping with the argument kind of thing.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I think.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: The hype man.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: The hype man, yes, somebody's making the argument, somebody's hyping it up.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: One of the things I don't think I necessarily called out, right?
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_02: So what what happens, right?
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: You help someone, what does that grant them?
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, it grants them advantage on making that ability check because I don't necessarily think that I called that out, right?
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: And advantage is equivalent to like a plus five, I think it is.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so if you just take any old role and on average, add add five to it, that's what you would be getting with having advantage on average.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: It would have been interesting to see in one of the last sessions that we played as a group, how someone could have potentially tried to help Ross's character persuade these cultists.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_02: And as the DM, personally, I would have loved to see that happen because then we could have seen how horribly wrong that probably could have ended up.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, I was dropping dimes, Phil.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: Depending on who helped you.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_02: So I would have loved the opportunity for that to happen.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: But uh, the other side, the flip side, right, is is assisting in an attack roll, which can be super advantageous too.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_02: So basically, you can use your action to distract an enemy.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_02: They do have to be within five foot of you, but that would grant advantage on the next attack roll made against them by one of your allies, as long as it happened before your next turn.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I thought of it a perfect way to use this in engine attack is when we were in our descent to a furnace campaign, and I was coming going up against everything that had resistance or immunity to my damage types.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: If I couldn't do damage to an opponent, but I could distract them, that could be really powerful.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, absolutely.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_02: Makes you super effective.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and then it gives like Ross or somebody coming in with radiant damage a clear shot.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah, if you have advantage, you have a higher chance of rolling an at 20 on that critting.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and especially as paladin pending what you take.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, could do bucko damage.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just trying to think of a situation.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to be within five feet of an enemy to do this.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: That that's a pretty severe limitation on this.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like odds are if if we're within five feet of an enemy, especially if this is close quarters, we probably already have the enemy flanked.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: Given flanking's an optional rule, so it's not like everybody does that.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: But the way our group tends to play is we do battle strategy that way.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: If we know we need to take somebody down, we try to flank as quickly as we can to get advantage on those.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: So if you have them flanked, you're already advanced.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: You don't need to then help somebody.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: But this doesn't say that your opponent has to make a your ally has to make a melee attack against them.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_02: They could make a ranged attack against that enemy with advantage.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: So if but but okay, so but if it's a ranged attack within five feet, they have disadvantage and you're giving them advantage, wouldn't that just be a normal roll, right?
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: But I mean you can use your help action to distract the target, your rogue is hitting somewhere in the foreign.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_02: They suddenly have advantage, which means they can use sneak attack.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: Because the help has to be within five feet, but not where the attack's coming from.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: I guess that's where it comes into play.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's the difference, right?
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: As far as that makes sense.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: But that that would actually be a very creative use of that, because then you could have somebody flanked be get advan be getting advantage on your melee attacks, help.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: That way your ranged players are also getting the advantage of having advantage on those attacks.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and you're it it's a rogue's dream because if they have advantage, they can sneak attack.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_02: So if you can distract the enemy and then they can attack.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: This is an area that it would be interesting to game out, and I'm sure uh Wizards of the Coast has done this.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: The the balance between doing a help action or attacking your own on your own.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: I agree.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: It uh it's hard, it feels like a sacrifice to help.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: Unless you have, like to Brett's point, where you don't necessarily have an effective attack action in the particular encounter that you're in or the particular combat, then I think help action makes sense, but it's really hard to sacrifice an attack action to take the help.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because you you yourself could be rolling extra damage but that you're not really gaining that much.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_02: And it could come into style of play too.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_02: I mean story mo storyline.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_02: It would be interesting to play a character that maybe doesn't like combat, right?
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_02: But so even when you're in combat situations, instead of attacking and dealing damage, you're helping and buffing and disengaging and you know all of those types of things instead.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: It would be an interesting character to play.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that brings up uh a great segue into what we should talk about next.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, what are other ways you can help in combat that is not using the help action?
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: You can do a lot of different things.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to just attack.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: You can heal, you can do battlefield control, uh, you can buff your allies, you can um give a nerf to your opponents.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like you can um there's certain spell spells that you can cast that take away um damage vulnerability or damage um immunity for uh the bad guy.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so then you can open up some of those attacks that weren't hitting previously, could start hitting.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_02: I I think we brought up one earlier too, like if you're you know one of your allies is already engaged in combat, all you have to do is flank, and you can grant your ally advantage, right?
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's an easy thing to do, it's just movement.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um the only thing that's stuck in my head is dodge, dip, dive, dock, duck, and dodge from dodgeball.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_02: And those aren't actual actions, but that's that's stuck there, and I can't do that.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what can we do?
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Brett brought up buffing, nerfing.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: There are spells out there that would really help you do that.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, like paladins have like warding spells or sanctuary spells that you know could force enemies away from you that could um force them to do certain things that you don't want them to do, and then you can then turn around and also attack with spell potentially.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: So there are different options there.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: Or if you cast something like entangle and it maybe is able to grab the hands of uh the bad guy, um they wouldn't be able to use their synaptic.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: Is that what the right one?
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um components, somatic components.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: Somatic components, um, or casting silence and have a zone of silence around the bad guy, and they can't use any verbal components.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: I love silence.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like that, if you're going up against a wizard, good luck.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: They can't do a lot outside of that.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: They're gonna have to move to get out of that zone.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the other things, I know we've kind of been hit on spells too, but really any way that you can kind of make things challenging for your opponent is helpful to the rest of your party.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_02: Whether that's you know, taking the ground out from underneath them, uh maybe it's all the dodgeball that's stuck in my head, but like pantsing someone, you know, to see what your DM does with that, right?
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_02: Like, do they trip?
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: You know, do they have to make a deck save?
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_02: And then hey, maybe they're prone, right?
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, you can do you can do dumb shit and still like end up helping your party.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: So I one of that I guess for me, like maybe that's the flavor of the help action almost, right?
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_02: So sure, you know, I'm gonna help the bard with his performance check.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_02: What does that look like?
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_02: Well, as a rogue for me, that's probably me causing a distraction.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas, you know, maybe if I'm um a sorcerer, maybe I can cast some minor illusion or you know, something that can enhance the performance.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it opens the door to add a little roleplay flavor kind of in there as well, using that help action.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this is help action is one that's really tied to uh it's a lot more powerful for some of the non-melee heavy damage dealing classes, like your bards, your sorcerer, or maybe sorcerer, uh clerics, uh, some of those other types of classes that aren't gonna be in the fray all the time.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: You can add a lot of more, a lot more substance and dynamics to your role-playing if you're throwing some of these crazy loopholes at your DM.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I agree.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: I actually have nothing to add which to what you guys said.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think you wrap that up nice and neat with a with a beautiful bow.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, of course.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: Let's let's not get too too big-headed over here, Phil.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's gonna do it for this episode of Bards and Barrels.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: You can listen to past episodes of the show anywhere podcasts can be found.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube at Bards and Barrels.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: We'll see you soon.