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Pan's Labyrinth with Aristotle Acevedo · The Bechdel Cast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: On the Bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: womenium are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef invest start changing
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: it with the bel cast. Welcome to the Vectel Cast.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: My name is Jamie Loftus. My name is Caitlin Darante. Jamie,
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: do you want to come down into my labyrinth with me? No,
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: sounds scary. Don't like that initiation. Um, well, wait, I
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: actually have a question. This is a movie, right, So
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: if there's elaborate, that's probably a really drawn out metaphor
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: for a womb, is it not. Perhaps there's a vagina
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: in the floor and we've got to climb in. This
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: happens in I would say of movies, Well remember the
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: floor of vagina from Mother exclamation point right, the floor
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: of vagina. I haven't thought about that, And forever it
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: happens so much male outurs they're at it again. At
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: least this is this is a great movie. But I
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: was like, there it is. I forgot the last time
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: I watched Pan's Laborriate, I didn't. I didn't know about
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: the cultural sensation that is floor vagina or a vagina.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: Head vaginas come in many forms. We have two floor
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: vaginas this month alone. I mean the descent cave vagina. Shocking. Wow. Um,
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: anyway here we are, yes? Sure? I Well, are there
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: two Doug Jones in your floor vagina? I guess I'll
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: come in as long as he's there. As long as
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: he's there, I feel safe. So this is the Bechtel Cast. Welcome.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: We are a movie podcasts in which we analyze popular films,
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: usually sometimes unpopular, I don't know. In any case, we
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: analyze influential, for better or worse, influential films through an
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: intersectional seminist lens, and we use the Bechtel test simply
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: as a way to inspire a larger conversation about representation, inclusivity,
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: intersectionality and what Jamie, what is it? What's the Betel test? Well?
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: It is a media metric invented by Alice and Bachtel,
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: sometimes called the Bactel Wallace test, that requires for our purposes.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: There's different variants of the test, but for our test,
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: it requires that there are two people of a marginalized
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: gender with names talking to each other about something other
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: than a man for two lines of dialogue that's all
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: it takes. Shouldn't be that awfully hard. You can talk
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: about Floria Vagina, you cannot talk about Doug Jones. Sometimes
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: it's hard, but but we we will get. I mean,
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: it's you know, this movie passes there, the podcast is over.
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: You can stop listening. There's nothing left to discuss. Um.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: But that is that is the Bechtel test. But we
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: use it as a jumping off point for a larger discussion. Indeed,
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: and I'm so excited about our discussion today. I'm so
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: excited about our guest today. You already know him, you
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: already love him, because he's our producer. He's our dear friend.
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: You remember him from the Pacific rim episode. He's the sweetest,
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: simply the best. He's an uncle now he's and he's
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: Del Toro's number one fan. Is the credit that he wanted.
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: It's a credit currently being sported on his very shirt,
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: courtesy of a gift that I bravely gave him. Brave
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: it's Aristotle Alsaveado. Hello, happy to be back. We're so
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: happy to have you. We've missed you so much. It
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: has been far too long. I know, well because someone
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: was just asking about you, and because of how you
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: record in the Quarantine where it's just a very bare
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: bones operation with me and Jamie. Um, but we still
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: need you, Aristotle, and that's why you're here and we've been,
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: we've been. I mean, this works out on so many
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: levels because you are number one Del Toro head and
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: people have been requesting Pan's Labyrinth for so long. I
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: imagine it's pretty high up there. What's your history with
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: this movie? And I guess with the Del Toro fandom
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: at large. I remember this the other day and it
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: may date me a bit, but I still remember seeing
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: the poster for the first time right here at the
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: Alhambra Renaissance when I was just a kid, uh, and
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: seeing it and thinking like, what the fuck movie called
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: Pan's Labyrinth and You're not gonna have Peter Pan in it?
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: That's so dumb, Like I was so mad that they
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: took Peter Pan's name? Did he? But you know, I
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: was a foolish child that knew nothing. And then I
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: don't remember the first time I saw it, but I
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: remember really being blown away and immediately remembering that moment,
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: thinking Wow, what that was? What a stupid thing? Oh
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: that's the best, Jamie, what about you, what's your history
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: with it? Um? I remember seeing this movie for the
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: first time after school at my aunt's house because she
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: had like movie channels and we did not have movie channels.
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: This is at my now Trump supporting aunt's house. We've
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: simply fallen out of touch, but I did. There was
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: a point in time where she had the channel Showtime,
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: and I wanted to watch a cool movie. So I
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: watched it and I love did I definitely. I don't know.
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: I was probably in like middle schoolish it. It was
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: like shortly after this movie came out. I didn't know
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: who del Toro was at this time, but it was
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: my first Del Toro movie, and so I held it
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: very close to my heart and it holds up. It's
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: so good it does. Yeah, what about you. I was
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: in college when it came out, and I think I
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: saw it somewhere around that time, maybe like a year
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: or two after six. When it came out, I was oh,
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: sex okay, yeah, right, yeah, yes, and I was like,
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: oh my god, this movie is so good. And I
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: wish I had spent my life watching it more frequently,
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: because I think I've only seen it. I think I
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: watched it once every like four years or so, so
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: I've seen it like three or four times in the past,
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: but every time I watched it, I'm like, oh my,
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: this is incredible. I love this movie. It's so the
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: story is so well crafted, it's beautiful, and I'm tronics
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: of it, all the dug Jones of it all that
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: I this is the first time I've seen this movie
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: since like American fascism really ramped up. So yeah, same
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: whole new vibe going on with this with this viewing.
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: Oh how nothing has changed? Yeah truly, but like, yeah,
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: this is basically you know, Franco's Spain all over again.
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: This was also I think the just to expose, uh,
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: some of the huge gaps in the American public education
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: system slash education system at large. Um. I think that
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: this movie was the first any in depth look I
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: had at Franco with Spain at all. Like I think
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: I had it referenced in school, but it certainly was
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: never something that I learned extensively about, like Pan's Labyrinthe
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: was truly what I was like, Oh, I should find
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: out what is supposed to be happening in this movie,
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: because I just it was very glossed over at school.
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: For me anyways, I didn't even it didn't even get
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: covered in any history class I ever took or anything
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: like that has the only reason I honestly know that
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: it happened. I know who Franco is. But even for
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: this I tried to do a little bit of research,
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: and it is so complicated I can't even pretend to
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: understand what I for a context corner, I was like,
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: all right, we got to do a breakdown of Franco
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: of Spain. And then I was just like, I don't
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: think I'm equipped to do this. Just read the Wikipedia page.
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: Everyone like it is. It is incredibly dense um and
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: I think I think it's also just like incredible writing
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: on del Toro's part, that it's like he's able to
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: present everything in a very historically accurate way, in a
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  Speaker 1: way that isn't like completely overwhelming or like if you
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: don't fully understand the context, it doesn't extreme lee hinder
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: your viewing of the movie, but if you do know
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: the context, it enriches it. It's I'm always really impressed
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: when people can right like that. It's a miracle. It's incredible. Yes,
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: But also in doing some of the research I did
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: a little research I read, you know, I have some
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: books on del Toro specifically, one of them kind of
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: referenced kind of his inaccuracy in the Spanish Civil War
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: and that there's still a lot of sugarcoating that happens,
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: that Spain itself is still kind of reconciling with that
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: the resistance was actually somewhat puppeted by Communist Russia at
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: the time and kind of use them and deceive them
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: to even ensure Franco's victory, and like it's a whole
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: very weird and that you know, the Francoist regime was
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: as brutal as depicted in the movie, but that the
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: resistance was also sometimes equally as brutal, Like they were
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: also indiscriminate, le just murdering priests, anyone related to the
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: church before and it was kind of like a back
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: and forth of those kinds of things. I was like, ahh,
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: holy ship. I really was hoping for a good versus
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: evil and I think it still was because Franco was evil,
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: but evil er, yeah, right, the greater of two evils. Wow,
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: I didn't realize that man history is bleak and that too,
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: was like, oh, this is so much like I truly
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: can't even pretend to like, that's just kind of scratch
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: of what I read. So if I'm totally wrong, I'm sorry.
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: That's fascinating. Well shod Should we talk about the movie?
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: I guess so? Oh right. Um, so the recap goes
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: as follows. I left some stuff out just because it's
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: such a rich story with a lot of moving parts,
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: So my recap isn't necessarily going to do this a
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: huge amount of justice. I just recommend that everyone watched
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: the movie because it's so terrific. It's streaming on Netflix
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: as we speak, or at least I hope it still
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: is at the time of this release. But um, yeah,
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: just watch the movie because my my recap kind of
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: skims over some stuff. But in any case, we get
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: some text on the screen at the very beginning to
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: provide some historical context. It is Spain in ninety four.
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: It's a few years after the Spanish Civil War, and
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: we learned that a group of like guerrilla rebel soldiers
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: are hiding in the mountains fighting against the fascist regime.
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: Then we get a little bit of a fairy tale
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: introduction where once upon a time there was a princess
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: who lived in the underworld, but she escaped to the
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: human world kind of forgot her identity eventually died there.
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: She became mortal and died there, but her father, the
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: King of the underworld, knew her soul would one day
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: return hern So that's the kind of fairy tale backstory
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: we need to know. Princess Mohanna Moana interesting. Yeah, I'm like, okay,
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: all my favorite princesses are named Mohanna. So then we're
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: back in Spain. We meet Ophelia. She's ten years old.
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: She loves fairy tales, and she is traveling with her mother,
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: who is undoubtedly gregnant. She is gregnant with a confirmed
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: Greg with a confirmed Greg who is a greg that's
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: giving her problems, a problematic Greg. She's late in her
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: problematic Gregnancy pregnancy, yes, and the third trimester of the Gregnancy.
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: So anyway, um Ophelia and her mother are traveling to
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: the countryside. Along the way, Ophelia sees this large insect
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: that she thinks might be a fairy and she also
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: sees an entrance to this old labyrinth made of stone
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: near the house where she and her mother will be
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: living in. And this is also where Olivia's new stepfather,
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: Captain Vidal, has set up this base camp because he
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: is in the military of the aforementioned fascist government searching
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: for the aforementioned rebels who were hiding in the nearby mountains.
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: And the captain, I feel like, embodies again in like
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: a good way. But but because I feel like this
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: movie has he's like patriarchy the character. Yeah, he's like
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: an embodiment of toxic masculinity and fascist ideology. Everything that's wrong,
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: that's him, that's that's his character. Yes, but also we're
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: seeing it through her, like a child died, So it
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: makes like, I mean, he's he's just he's a villain.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: He's simply a villain, one of the best movie villains,
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: I think, and I think if this movie were less
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: well written, he could easily come off as like one
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: of these very cartoony villains. And he is. He's extremely evil.
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: He's horrible. Works for the story, though, I mean, it
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: definitely works. It works for the story, especially because it
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: is like this is a fair dark, grim fairy tale,
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: and he's very he's like borderline cartoonishly evil. But then
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: you're like, remember, like, well, there were like fascist assholes
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: who were not unlike this guy in real life, and
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: also worth worth the note that Hispanic culture in general
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: is very patriarchy, male dominant, like man is the man
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: ruler over every like the language in itself is also
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: completely binary and male is the dominant to the point
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: where he I mean, I don't know, he does so
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: many cartoonishly evilings, but when he goes to his dying
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: wife's side and it's like, if it comes down to it,
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: save Greg and then he just like leaves, You're like,
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: jeezs man, damn the room at Yeah, she's right there.
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: She can hear you right there, sir. He's so, he's
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: he's completely awful, and uh so this is kind of
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: who Ophelia is up against. Um. We also meet Mercedes,
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: she is a housekeeper, UM, and we meet a doctor.
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: They both kind of tend to the captain and his people,
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: but we get a reveal that they are both secretly
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: a part of this resistance and they've been helping the rebels,
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: sneaking food and supplies to them. Um. Then on Ophelia's
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: I think it's her first night there, the insect slash
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: fairy shows up and beckons Ophelia to follow it into
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: the labyrinth, and there she meets a fawn who thinks
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: that Ophelia is the princess from the fairy tale in
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: the beginning, and he has been like awaiting her return.
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: And as you said, Jamie, the princess's name is ma Wanna,
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: but with two ends Malana with ends. So the fawn
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: gives Ophelia three tasks to complete by the next full moon.
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: The first task is to feed these magic stones to
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: a giant toad who lives in a nearby tree um
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: who has been kind of like wreaking havoc on this tree,
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: and she has to retrieve the key from inside the toad,
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: which she successfully does. The toad scene so scary. I
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: never remember what happens to the toad. It basically just
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: barbs up all of its guts and then it's like
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: skin shell just sort of deflates like a balloon. Oh my.
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of like really horror imagery, like graphic
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: violence and just like really scary stuff. It usually happens
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: pretty quick, and you don't actually get a lot of
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: views of like the scene where he smashes a face
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: in with the bottle, right the bottle, and you know,
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: you don't actually see his face. You kind of get
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: a moment of it being smashed in. But it's not
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: like other gory movies where it's like we're going to
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: give you the full look into his bleeding. It's like
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: kind of it's a very quick thing most of the time.
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: That's still the worst one for me, really bad. Yeah,
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: but I was reading that Del Toro based that off
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: of something that actually happened. I can find that quote
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: right now. I was just reading it. Yeah, awful. Um, okay,
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: So she's got the key from the toad. Meanwhile, Vidal
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: is getting closer to the rebels in the mountains. One
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: of them is Mercedes brother. Also Ophelia's mother is her
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: her difficult Gregnancy is is getting worse. Um, she's having
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: pain and bleeding. Then the fun shows up and he's like, Ophelia,
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: you haven't done your next task yet. You have to
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: go into this dangerous place. Take the key with you.
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: You'll see this feast laid out before you, but don't
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: eat or drink anything. That's very important. So she goes
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: into this place and there's this scary creature, the Paleman,
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: also Doug Jones. She sneaks past it and uses the
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: key to retrieve this dagger, but the feast is very
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: tempting and she is a child with not much will power,
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: so she eats a couple of grapes and it awakens
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: the pale man who has eyeballs in his hands. It's
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: very scary and it kills two of the fawn's little
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: like fairy friends. But Ophelia manages to escape, and the
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: Fawn shows up again and he's like, um, you ate
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: the things that I told you not to eat. You're
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: not worthy. You're never allowed to come back into the
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: labyrinth again. You can't be the princess And then right
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: after this, Ophelia's mother dies during childbirth. The baby survived.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: The Greg does survive. His name is Greg. Canonically, I
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: believe he's credited Greg. Yeah, baby Greg. So meanwhile, Videl
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: is like figuring out that the doctor and Mercedes have
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: been helping the rebellion. So Mercedes makes a run for
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: it and takes Ophelia with her, but Videl catches them
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: trying to leave, and then he's about to interrogate Mercedes,
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: but she fights back, stabs him a couple of times,
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: and then runs away. The so cathartic fun but then
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: Videl's army surrounds her as she's running away, but the
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: gorillas are hiding nearby and they like, sniper shoot the
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: bad guys. Meanwhile, the phone comes back to Ophelia and
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: he's like, Okay, you know what, I decided to give
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: you one more chance for your last task. You have
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: to come to the Labyrinth and bring your baby brother, Greg,
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: and you have to do everything I say without question.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: So Ophelia snatches the baby from Videl's office, but she
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: gives Videal this strong sedative and he's trying to chase
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: after her through the labyrinth. And then Ophelia comes upon
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: the opening of the underworld and the Pond is like, okay,
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: you have to sacrifice your baby brother because we need
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: the blood of an innocent to open the portal to
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: the underworld. And she's like, um funck no, dude, this
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: is a baby. I'm not gonna hurt it. Just then
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: Videl shows up, takes the baby and shoots Ophelia, and
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: then the tears just start bursting from your head. And
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: then and then when Videl emerges from the Labyrinth, the
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: rebels have him surrounded and they kill him in another
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: very cathartic scene, and then we cut back to Ophelia,
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: who is dying, and her spilt blood and her refusal
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: to hurt her brother and sacrifice herself instead opens the
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: portal to the underworld, where she is revived and she
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: reunites with her true mother and father, the King and
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: Queen of the Underworld. And then kind of the last
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: little bit of the movie is she leaves kind of
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: like hints of her herself on earth, like a little flower,
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: and that you're saying that she dies and doesn't fall asleep, right,
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: because I was just worried that you were going to
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: be hay that energy and on onto the cast. You
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: know what I've I gave this a lot of thought.
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: She definitely does it fall. I mean, she's only with
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: dead people. But I mean you could say the same
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: thing for well, what happens in Titanic, you know what,
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: Jamie I think, Well, here's the thing, James Cameron, if
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: you read his script, he leaves it intentionally ambiguous in
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: the Titanic screenplay, whereas Garmo del Toro has stated pretty
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: definitively that the fairy tale aspect of this movie is
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: real and that she does, in fact die at the
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: end and go into the underworld, and that's all real.
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: So point, James Cameron and Garama del Toro are friends,
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: So it's conceivable that del Toros at the end of
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: Titanic and was like, oh my god, I love this
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: beautiful climactic ending scene in certainly Heaven. Uh let me
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: let me draw from this, uh for for my own movie.
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: James Cameron is my friend. I'm also like that, which
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: let me hold down a whole other rabbit hole of Like,
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: what are those conversations? I feel like those must be
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: some of like the weirdest conversations between two people you
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: could ever find. Like I would love to just hack
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: in and see what those guys are talking about in
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: the emails. Well, he has got navy j pegs in
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: his Gmail for sure. Okay, well counter counterpoint. Yeah, del
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: Toro saw the end of Titanic. He read the screenplay,
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: and he's just like, I don't like how ambiguous this is.
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: I think that James Cameron really left it open to interpretation,
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: so much so that some really brilliant people they're easily
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: interpret the end of Titanic as a dream. So I
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: want to make sure my ending is a little bit
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: more concrete counter counter counter point Del Toro, it's you
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: know the heaven in Pan's lab Ranther the you know
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: the underworld is a beautiful shimmering gold, which I think
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: is a direct reference to the heaven that is painted
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: at the end of Titanic, where the room is more
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: luminescent and the lighting is different than You look up
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: to the sky and it's so beautiful and you're like, wow,
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: that must be what heaven is like, a place full
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: of dead people that you knew. And but isn't that
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: also what dreams are like? Every time I dream, it's
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: full of all the dead people. Like, my dreams are
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: not like that. I'll tell you. Oh, that's okay. That's
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: a great counter counter counter counterpoint is that dreams are
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: usually terrifying. I had a dream last night that Adam
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: Sandler kept mailing bras that weren't my size to my house.
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: It's not heaven at all. That was there gold in
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: the background, golden light, no gold, There was no gold.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: He was sending it through Amazon, so it wasn't even ethical.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: He was sending me the wrong size bra to my
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: house over and over and over and over and over,
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: and I don't want to know what that dream means,
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: but I did have it. Well, I can see that
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: we'll never agree on this, so I have somewhat of
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: a counterpoint here that that is an odd thing I
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: encountered in the research. In this essay, I'm probably gonna
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: be referring to a lot that I was surprised to
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: read because it's kind of a not a harsh criticism,
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: but a little bit. It's a bit of a criticism
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: on Gama de Toro, which I was I was happy
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: to read, and it's exactly that that the writer criticizes.
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: Is that he is one of the most vocal directors
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: when it comes to his own films and loves to
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: explain every bit of it. But that then doesn't allow
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: for your interpretation of it. He is actively directing everyone's
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: view of how he wants his movies to be, which
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: is kind of what you want to do. But he's
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: very heavily influencing everyone that loves him. And now you
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: can't find a flaw in it because he told you
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: what to look for, opposed to being a little more
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: you know, critical of like, well, actually, I don't think
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: it means that you know just because you say, it
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: means that you're still you still might be blind to
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: what you're subconsciously doing here. That's interesting though, because I
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: think that in this movie. That's why I like was
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: kind of going back and forth about like, Okay, is
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: it real? Is this like just Ophelia's coping mechanism for
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: for like dealing with living in this like fascist household,
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: or is this are there actually like fairy tale elements
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: happening in her to her like in reality? Because I
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: think the movie gives you enough clues for both sides
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: of the argument that it is still open to interpretation.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: San um So, I don't even know if I agree
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: with that criticism, because even though like del Toro is like, yes,
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: here's what I here's my intention, or here's how I
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: read my own movie, but I think he still like
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: gives you enough of enough opportunities to interpret it a
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: number of different other ways, especially for the blurring of
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: those worlds. Yeah, I kind of like, I mean, I
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: kind of like that kind of DeSUS. I mean, we've
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: kind of been talking about this an unusual amount lately,
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: but we also talked about it in our episode about
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: a girl walks home alone at night, where um Anna
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: Lily I'm your port was very resistant to have her
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: movie labeled as any specific type of movie. It sounds
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: like to come from the opposite side of well, where
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: del Toro is coming, where del Toro is possibly being
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: overly specific about like no, I didn't mean this, I
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: meant this, where she was like, I'm not going to
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: tell you what anything means, and I don't want you
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: to put any label on this movie, even if it
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: makes it sound better or whatever. So I think that
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: that's interesting. Yeah, I guess different directors make different choices. Um,
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: we got to take a quick break, but then we'll
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: come right back for more. Alright, we have emerged back
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: out of the labyrinth and from out of the womb.
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: That long staircase. Yeah, I wish I lived down there.
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: That design is so yeah, I mean it's so beautiful. Yeah,
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: where should we start where? I mean a few things
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: that I never really noticed or kind of. Um, was
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: really impressed by watching this movie with our lens in mind.
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: Something that jumped out to me. I'll just jump in here. Uh,
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: women and blood, which I never really picked up on
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: because there are bloods of all genders still in this movie.
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: All people have blood everyone has blood and that's just
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: a fact, unless, of course I did just watched every
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: Twilight movie, so not always some people drink it anyways. Uh,
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: But just the real relationship between women and blood, I
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: thought was really interesting and I'm pretty sure I like
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: where most of it goes where I mean, I think
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: it's very rare that you see a difficult pregnancy great
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: sorite partner friend, what did you say? A difficult Gregnancy
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: on screen, which is weird because they're incredibly common and
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: kind of the complications that come with pregnancy, even a
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: metaph metaphor pregnancy like this very clearly is I thought
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: was it was cool and that you see kind of
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: the gorrier. I thought it was kind of cool to
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: see that. I also felt like there were connection between
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: um and again, sometimes I'm like, Okay, a man writing
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: the story of three women. Of course there's just gonna
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: be a little bit too much vaginal fixation. Uh. And
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: I don't think that this movie is really an exception
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: to that, but it's such a good movie that I'm like, well,
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: but like even at the end, I felt like del
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: toro and please jump in if you're like you're reading
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: into this it's not a vagina thing. But even at
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: the end where it's like Ophelia's blood that that activates
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: the floor of vagina and stuff like that, where it
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: felt and I was able to find a few readings
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: of this that also referenced this, so I'm like, okay,
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: I don't feel completely off base, but just kind of
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: the symbolism of blood in a woman's life where Ophelia
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: obviously like that never reaches menstruating age, but her you
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: know blood at the end kind of activates this big
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: um change in the in the midmost of this world,
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: or like there's Prey Nancy blood we see, there's you know,
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: injury blood, we see, there's just I don't know, women
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: in blood. It had me thinking, I see your point.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: That didn't even occur to me, And that almost feels
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: like the type of like deep read, like over analytical
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: kind of thing. Whenever, like I don't know, there are
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: different movies where there will be like a mountain and
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: people will be like, that's a ballast, that's a Paenis
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: that suggesting this is not a floor of vagina though
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: I don't know, I mean the floor of vagina. I
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: didn't think about I didn't consider that because I just
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: thought it for a labyrinth. But I do think that
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: is a valid point to make, is the floor of vagina.
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: But he also was very explicitly said that the tree
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: is over there ovaries or a uterus. It did that
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: that tree did look like I'm going to defend my
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: floor of vagina, and like whatever women's blood saying. I mean,
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: I don't, I don't and I don't even think this
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: is like a misstep for this movie. But it was
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: just something that stood out to me. And this and
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: even the who like many of the hallways we see
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: her walking through, uh you know, there's a fallopian vibe
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: going on to them. Yeah, I mean, and it and
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: it makes sense where there's I mean, so much of
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: the movie hinges on this Gregnancy that is difficult and
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: full of trials, and so that is true. Yeah, yeah,
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: And I guess the tunnel that she goes into to
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: find the frog that could be seen as vaginal opening
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: to so much of it is so much of it
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: seems to be about discovering yourself and growing up and
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: coming to maturity, so that the floor of vagina makes
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: a lot of sense now of you know, the blood
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: going into the floor of vagina, being a period and
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: thus reaching maturity and finding yourself in the underworld. I
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: don't know. Yeah, I guess I'm not totally sold on
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: the on the period metaphor at the end. I just
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: the relating like women in blood to a pregnancy or
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: just vaginal blood at all. You would really not see
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: in a big movie like this very often, but you
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: see it pretty frequently in this movie, mostly via um
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: Ophelia's mom. Yeah, I guess I didn't give a much
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: thought prior to this. Yeah, it was. I truly couldn't
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: stop any about it in this one, where I'm like, well,
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: there for me, it's a floor of vagina and a
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: vagina hallway. One of the first things I wanted to
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: bring up was that this is a hero's journey style
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: narrative where a girl is the hero um, which is
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: pretty unique. It's not often done. Female characters rarely get
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: to be the hero in a hero's journey story. Another
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: example off the top of my head is another again
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: another character named moh Wanna, but like Disney's mo Wanna,
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: is one of only a few other like popular media
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: hero's journey stories. I guess the new Star Wars movie
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: like The Affair, but just definitely coming more popular, definitely
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: not parody, and there it's only been in I think
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: pretty recent years that filmmakers are like I would argue
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: Hunger Games as well, Like sure, even even the worst
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: of OZ. I mean, they definitely exist and have existed,
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: but just definitely not not to the same for sure.
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: So I think that is cool for sure. And also
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: I guess worth mentioning in the case of this movie,
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: that she doesn't survive the heroes Ernie, which is I
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: mean it fits again, it like fits the story perfectly,
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: but it's very sad or I mean does because she
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: dies and gets reborn in underworld heaven. Isn't that surviving? Yeah,
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: I mean it definitely is in a way, um, but
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: I mean in terms of does she get to ever
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: speak to Mercedes again? Does she likes stuff like that?
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: Like she I feel like, yeah, it's it's very sad.
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: It's so sad she reached the goal that she was
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: reaching for. But yes, because I do still like to
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: think that it is ambiguous that like that was just
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: her in her head and now she's happily living that
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: fantasy in the afterlife. But was it real, I would
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: like to I guess, I don't know. I know I
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: wanted to be real. Um. I also like if we're
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: just in the way that I don't know. There's a
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: number of between our three main female characters. Everyone has
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: a different dynamic and a different type of relationship, which
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: is really cool. Um, And you kind of get these
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: three very different types of women and they have very
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: different responses to the like very oppressive force that's on
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: top of them. Right where you have Carmen, who is
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: I mean, and and Carmen is very fascinating to me,
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: and I I love her so much because she is
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: the most deferential to the patriarchy. But I feel like
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: a lesser movie would make you feel like and you know,
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: look what happened to her, But but you know exactly
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: why she is making the choices that she's making. It's
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: made very clear, even when it sucks and it's upsetting,
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: and you can tell that she is not always thrilled
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: to have to make them. But with her, it's this
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: I don't know, like something I'd never really gave a
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: lot of thought too, but kind of like towing that
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: line of like she's trying to you know, like there's
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: a class thing at play for her as well, which
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: I feel like it is symbolized through when Ophelia gets
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: the dress all fucked up and Carmen is really upset
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: because that symbolizes a higher class status, and it seems
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: like the trade off for that is her having to
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: put up with some of the most horrifying sexism of
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: all time. But it also the movie doesn't I don't know.
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: I mean, she does die right so, but I but
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: I did feel like the movie didn't think less of
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: her for making those choices, which made me, Yeah, I
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: really love her. And even though you know, it's like
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: she's not the like rebel of the story, but her
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: narrative is no less important or valuable, and that is,
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: I think, really beautiful. We've talked about the from time
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: to time on the podcast about how women not to
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: the same extent in contemporary times, but definitely in decades
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: past and centuries passed in millennia past, where women have
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: been at such a major disadvantage in life, where they
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: basically have to make huge sacrifices to survive. And it
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: felt to me like she was a widow, her her husband,
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: her husband died. Did they say he died in the war,
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: so he probably he died in the in the you know,
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: Spanish civil wars about to have a great beard. I
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: forget he looks like at the end, I was like, well, cool, Yeah,
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: he's more or less Santa Claus. And so he died.
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: What I'm guessing was quite a while ago. Her mother
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: had to like take over his business as a tailor
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: in like the shop. It was war time. She was struggling,
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: and then this distinguished military man comes along and probably
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: like I don't know the circumstances of their marriage, but
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: she probably just saw him as like, well, he can
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: provide for me and my daughter, so I will marry
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: him because what are my choices, which I feel like
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: is like illustrated really clearly in that scene where Ophelia
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: it doesn't understand why her mother felt that she had
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: to get married again, and her mom says, I was
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: alone too long, and then it's it's so sad because
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: I feel like you weren't alone. I was right there,
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: but just there's there's a level that Ophelia doesn't yet understand,
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: like what it takes to survive under I mean, almost
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: every kind of oppression you can imagine for sure. Yeah,
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: so this was like a choice of survival she had
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: to make by marrying Vidal and then and then he
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: turns out to be a horrible, abusive piece of ship
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: that is unfortunately the case all too often. But yeah,
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: again it's like what choice did she have if she
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: was going to provide for herself and her daughter? So, um, yeah,
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: I thought that was an interesting exploration. I wonder if
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: that could have been dived into just a little bit more.
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: I don't know if there was necessarily space or need
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: for it, but I kind of she was the character,
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: the female character to me that I felt if if
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: anyone could have gotten a little bit more development, it
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: could have been Ophelia's mom. But um yeah, I still
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: I think it was still interesting the way that her
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: kind of circumstances were presented to us. I think she
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: also plays she's kind of used as the perfect example
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: of how all women at that time we're just like
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: you're just shoved down to nothing, Like you're just constantly
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: gotten ship after ship after ship. There's no easy way out,
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: and so she kind of, I think, unfortunately, has to
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: die to prove that point. You're like, nope, you're just
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: not gonna get anything and then we're just gonna kill you.
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: And that's that. Yeah. I was feeling that way on
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: this few as well, where it's like they're whatever, they're
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: these three women and girls are representing kind of like
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: three different ways to approach this oppressive force and what
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: are the outcomes where she's very deferential to it? And
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: I feel like like you're just saying your estortle, Like
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: the movie doesn't want you to really take away, like, well,
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: you should just be passive to the worst person in
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: the entire world and you'll you'll get out just fine
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: where And and I think it's like really telling that
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: I don't know, I mean, I always am like doesn't
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: feel you have to die um, but that Mercedes is
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: the sole character to kind of get out um and
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: be able to continue on in this version of the world.
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: And how it's like someone who is from a lower
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: class and is you know, expected to be deferential to
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: the same person, but finds a way to navigate around
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: that and kind of rebel and push anyways. And to
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: have that character be the one who survives and goes on,
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: you know, it's like the metaphor isn't a softball it's
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: like I get it, but I like that, yet there's
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: still again, I'm gonna keep referencing the same There's a
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: book that I have. It's a great book, yet is it.
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: It's called The Devil's Backbone and Pans Labyrinth Studies in
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: the Horror film and they're about these two specific films.
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: The Quest for Meaning in Pans Labyrinthe by Romana Cortie,
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: I don't know is the one that's a little bit
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: more critical. And she will also point out that even
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: this happy sad ending is still a huge sugarcoating of
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: the situation because Franco continued to rule for years after
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: to nineteen, so like there isn't even in that little
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: bit of hope that like there is no happy ending
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: for them. It's fun And that gets mentioned to where
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: I think it's Mercedes talking to her brother or different
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: rebels are talking to each other and they'll say, like,
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: even if we can like kill Vidal, they're just gonna
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: send another one. And if we kill him, they're going
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: to send another one. So yeah, it's just like in reality,
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: like Mercedes survives to the end of this movie, but like,
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: but who knows what happens there's no guarantee that in
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: like a year, she might not have been killed by
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: the fascist regime. Yeah, so yeah, I was. I was
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: kind of like, I like that they at least reference that,
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: but like I I also see her criticism that that
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: kind of is like we I mean, in any time
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: like one character represents I mean, I think that that's
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: the downside of having like Mr Patriarchy as your villain,
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: of like, well, once you've killed Mr. Fascism, Mr Fascism,
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: hyphen Patriarchy, joy can spread across the land again, when
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: of course it's not never one person you know. Yet
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: he's still such you're saying early, he's like a perfect
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: villain because he's so brutal and evil and there's no
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: way to sympathize with him really, which you also understand why,
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: I mean, you don't understand like it not you know, sympathetically.
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: But he is just a disgusting product of the time
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: with major daddy issues. Oh my god, I can't wait
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: to talk about his daddy issues. And the daddy issues
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: in this movie are running rampant. There's an exchange I
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: really like between Vidal and the doctor character who the
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: doctor is tending to one of the rebels that the
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: fashion the fashion guys have captured. They're torturing him to
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: get him to talk, and um, the doctor comes in
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: to tend to him after he's been tortured, and the
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: bull guys like, please kill me, and so the doctor complies,
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: is like yes, this is like we have to make
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: sure you can't they don't get any more information out
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: of you. And then Videl comes in and he's like,
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: you disobeyed me. Why did you do that? Why didn't
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: you just obey me? And um, the doctors like, well,
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: to obey someone without question is something that only someone
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: like you can do and not me, which is like
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: what fascism is is, you know, just like obeying without question.
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: And then that ties back in the end in a
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: in a really cool thematic way where the fawn is like, okay, Ophelia,
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: I need you to just bring your brother. Don't ask questions,
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: and then when he's like we need to like spill
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: his blood for this whole thing to work, you can't like,
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: don't question it, and she's just like no, like, I'm
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: not some like Patsy, I'm not some or not's not
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: the right word, but I'm not some just like follower
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: who's she said that though like a Newsy fucking Patsy,
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: and that's rewarded because she's like, well then she you know,
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: she sacrifices herself and and you know, I don't know,
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: the moral of the story is just don't follow orders
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: without questioning them, because then you become a fascist the end. Yeah,
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: I think it's like Ophelia. I don't know, I'm really
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: because you've you are so much more entrenched in the
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: discourse around this movie than than we are Ophelia. I
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: I it makes me sad that Ophelia dies, but it
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: does I mean, if we're going with the read where
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: she dies, and I think that that makes a kind
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: of interesting complex point where like you have one character
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: who differs to the oppressive forest and it kills them.
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: You have one character who pushes against the oppressive force
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: and survives for now, and then you have Ophelia who
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: pushes against the oppressive force and loses. And just I
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: don't know, seeing all those different kinds, like, it doesn't
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: necessarily mean that there's one way to go against an
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: oppressive force that's going to be a win. It just
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: means that, you know, you have to do. It shows
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: the weight of the oppression of like this is such
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: a massive, massive front of evil, which is hard to
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: get around. But another weird is the fun gas little philia,
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: right for sure, because that's what that's that's the weird,
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: that thing that I still kind of have some trouble
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: under standing why. I suppose, like was the eating of
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: the grapes saying you'll never see me again but then
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: coming back for a second chance part of the test
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: or was is that just like all of this one
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: long gaslight? And the other problem in this story really
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: has the number one has the number one self proclaimed
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: Gammo fan. I also have to bring up a lot
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: of the hiccups. But the odd thing in this story
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: is that it's about Princess Juana running away from a
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: patriarchy into a human evil evil like very oppressive patriarchy.
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: You want to return back to the original patriarchy. So
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: there's never really a freedom that she gets. There's a
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: happier ending, but it's she still goes from patriarchy to patriarchy, right.
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: It makes you wonder why she ran away from the
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: underworld in the first place, Like I'd imagine it was
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: out of curiosity, but that is I hadn't I hadn't
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: even considered it from that angle, and like, yeah, she
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: is like it is another daddy, daddy's own, but a
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: nicer daddy this time. Yeah. Well, I was like, is
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: it like, I mean, it's not like The Little Mermaid
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: where she's like, I fell in love with a man
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: from above of so I have to go up there.
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: I have to see a plot which and then you know,
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: get some legs and then become a human. It's nothing like, yeah,
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: I guess we don't know why she ran away or
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: like that part of this story doesn't apply to her
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: that I was kind of struggling with that. To her,
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: I'm like, where she gets to the labyrinth and then
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: the fon is like, you're the main character in the story.
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: But then it's like, well, then why doesn't she know
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: about anything that happens to the character before because she
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: loses her memory as as soon as she comes, so
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: she forgets why the first patriarchy is bad. So the
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: ending of the movie is she's going to go back
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: and then find out soon I mean patriarchy bad, but
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: they never also explicitly say bad, So I like, what wait, truly,
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: I just imagine like the kind of situation of like
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: I want to live amongst the humans to see what
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: it's like, but then I want to be where are
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: the people are exactly, and the other kind of she's
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: a try so you can't falter for it. But the
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: other odd thing about the situation is that the world
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: is so oppressive she would rather leave, you know what
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: I mean. The kind of feels like a in the
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: current situation, it feels a little bit like I hate
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: both of the candidates, so I'm not going to vote.
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: Oh so I'm just gonna like I'm out of here.
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: I'm I'm moving to Canada, moving, and she's literally moving
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: to Wow, And I'm like, she's a child, so of
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: course that that's the option we'd all take. At least
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: she can't vote. Uh, yeah, that makes sense. It's always
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: I mean, and I guess the other the other way
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: that I saw to read that happening was like whatever
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: you if you're going from, Like she pushed against the
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: oppressive force. It lost her her life, but then it
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: kind of also won her this immortality that's implied of
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: like almost like a Martyrie martyr for the cause kind
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: of immortality. So even though she's physically dead. Maybe I
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: don't know, it's like her her death meant something in
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: the human world and it impacted people in the human world,
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: which is I mean, yeah, I don't know. That's the
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: positive spin I can see on that, but it also
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: could be seen as moving to Canada. I had not
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: considered the martyr I saw. I saw more as it
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: like another victim of the Franco regime. But the martyrdom
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: of it is that changes everything. I hope, hopefully, I'm like,
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: you would hope right that, like Mercedes survives, and hopefully
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: she survives long enough to tell the other rebels about this,
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: like little girl who wouldn't listen to the captain and
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: like had this big imagination and lost her whole family
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: and gave her life up because she wouldn't capitulate or whatever.
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: I hope, I mean, I hope because otherwise it's like,
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: oh God, life is so many ningless. And on that note,
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: let's take a quick break and then come back for
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: more discussion and we're back, just really quick stuff. I mean,
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: this was kind of like I guess the one oh
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: one of why Ophelia is such a cool character, but
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: just so it's all said, put it out there. She's
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: she's a little rebellious kid. She doesn't wear fancy dresses
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: that look like exactly like the Alice in Wonderland dress
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: because I'm sure a reason when you tell her to.
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: I like that she has this really rebellious spirit, but
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: it doesn't like it doesn't mean that she's a bad kid.
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: I feel like a lot of times you see that
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: in movies where it's like you just need to learn
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: to be good, where she knows that her mom is wrong.
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: She doesn't understand why her mom is making the decision
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: or wrong by her view right, she doesn't understand why
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: her mom is making the decisions that she's making. But
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: it doesn't destroy their relationship. It definitely affects it, but
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: it they still have this like strong love and respect
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: for each other that doesn't come apart even though they
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: are being true to what they think is right in
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: very different ways, which is something you don't usually get
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: in a story like this where it's like, I mean,
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: I guess I'm just in this headspace because we are
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: talking about the Little Mermaid a lot. But like Ariel
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: disobeys her dad and he's like, Cia, you suck you're bad,
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: And I like that happens in stories with young rebellious
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: protagonists and a lot of their parents are like, no,
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: I don't see it your way. I was never a child.
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: I'm going to destroy your room full of a little
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: weird your labyrinth. But in this I like that there
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: are so many shades of gray to the mother daughter relationship,
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: even though you don't see them together that that much.
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: But even that moment where I don't know, my favorite
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: moment they have together on this watch is like when
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: she's in the bathtub and she's just disobeyed for the
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: five millionth time, and her mom comes in and is like, well,
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: we're very disappointed, and you were really frustrated, and the
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: captain is more disappointed than me Cia, and I was like, okay,
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: that's like a really lovely and then Ophelia like gives
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: this little smirk like I'm glad I disappointed him because
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: I hate him. She knew and I and also that's
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: like indicating to her that her mom is not actually
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: that disappointed in her, and it's just like, which is lovely.
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: I like. I like that. I also like the relationship
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: dynamics between the three of them, The three the three
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: main female protagonists being the mom, because you have the
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: mom who's like struggling and trying to do the best
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: for her mother, I mean for her daughter. But then
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: Ophelia also goes to I have to say that with um,
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: I guess the things that she can't talk about with
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: their mother. And I appreciate that being there in the
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: movie because that I feel like that never that doesn't
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: come up often with a child talking to an adult
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: about kind of grown up things, I guess, or things
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: like this is how I feel because they have to talk.
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: They're the only two that can talk to each other
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: really about, Like I'm in this secret rebellion, I was
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: like I met a faun though at a lot of
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: points to Mercedes listens, but it's also kind of like
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: magic isn't real, right, But I think that's also just
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: from coming from being hardened from flipping in a fascist regime.
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: Perhaps what I like that Mercedes does that Ophelia's mom
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: doesn't is that, yeah, Like it is definitely clear from
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: the beginning that Mercedes is like, Okay, this is like
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: a kid thing and it's an imagination thing, but she
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: doesn't try to really take that from Ophelia because it
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: seems like, I mean, Merses especially is so entrenched in
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: like some really difficult shit, and it seems like she
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: sees this kid and she's like, oh my gosh, this
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: kid has such a wild imagination and has so much
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: going on in their inner life that at least doesn't
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: it's a projection of living in a fascist regime, but
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: it's at least fun and it's hers, And so she
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: doesn't try to be like this is fake. I think
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: she's just like, Okay, don't like, don't take things too far.
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: I don't know. And she also says like she feels
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: like a cool aunt for her friend talked to, especially
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: because she says like, no, I don't believe in those
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: things now, but I did when I was your it.
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: You know, I did when I was a kid. So
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: it's like she's letting Ophelia having it and like not
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: telling her not to believe in those things, whereas her
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: mom is like, these are you just need to stop
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: reading so many fairy tales, like there is no magic,
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: and so like her mom sort of forcing her own
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: little bit of oppression on Ophelia, whereas Mercedes is like
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: you like yeah, but like believe in whatever you want
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: to believe in if it helps you cope with these
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: awful times. I'm going off that. I mean, it's like
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: her style. You were saying earlier that the fun is
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: like an asshole for sure, Like he's definitely gaslighting and
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: confusing her constantly, and like the goal of what he
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: actually wants is never clear, and if if that is
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: kind of like her projection of the world she's around,
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: where like it's this inner labyrinth that she has to
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: navigate that's full of male figures that she's kind of
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: afraid of that are giving her. That's like I don't know,
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: just like providing endless confusion and lack of clarity, and like, oh,
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: maybe that's what it is. I am always I guess
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: just using this lens going in it. I guess I
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: never really thought very hard about how like the mythical
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: creature she encounters, the fairies, are coded female or they
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: use she prone up, but but you don't really know
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: you don't, I mean other than their protectors, but like
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: you don't really know much about them. But like the
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: two characters you get to know in the Labyrinth are
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: too kind of deceptive. And then in the in the
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: second villain, what do we what? The Paleman's case is
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: like terrifying a little more on the nose too, But
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: that that also, I think lends nicely in with it,
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: like these are things that that she's projecting the pale
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: Man is because I hadn't realized how close those scenes were.
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: But the big dinner scene it's almost right before the
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: Paleman scene, and they're exactly mirrored. So the Paleman's cave
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: that is a little more Catholic churchy, yeah, which Gammo
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: has said it's supposed to represent the Catholic Yes, yeah,
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: that scene is a criticism of that institution. Right. I
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: don't know if I even made that connection. Every time
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: I watched this movie, I'm just like so dazzled by
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: like the visuals, and I'm I'm always like, oh right,
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: there's also like symbolism and stuff that I keep forgetting
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: to pay attention to. I watched it twice for this
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: and both times by the end, I was like fuck,
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: I wasn't even like thinking like research, I was just watching.
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: I watched at once for fun because I knew I
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: wasn't going to be able to focus because it's so
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: good and I haven't seen it in years and then
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: the second time for analysis and I still didn't pick
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: up everything. It's just so rich. But yeah, it's like
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: if it's I mean, has has del Toro said explicitly
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: that the creature she comes across in the laborate are
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: just are her interpretation of what's going on in front
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: of her. I don't think he said that, though, I
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: do like that, but he did say that, like the
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: pale Man is a like reflection of Vidal in a
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: like as above so below type of got it? Can
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: we talk about Mercedes? So one of the bigger cathartic
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: moments or storylines for me was with her, where basically
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: what happens is that Vidal underestimates her because she is
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: a woman. Because there's that scene where he's about to
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: interrogate and torture her after he's figured out that she's
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: working with the rebellion, and he sends like the his
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: like second in command guy away and the guy's like
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: are you sure? Like don't you want me to be here?
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: And he's like, for God's sake, she's just a woman,
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: you know, Like what what could have possibly happen? She's
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: not going to do anything to me, right, and that
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: that's like what kills him exactly, yes, and he's like,
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: you found my weakness. It's pride. And then two seconds later,
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: she stabs him in the back jokers him. I forgot
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: that she jokes him. I was like, oh no, don't
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: joker him. It also looks like she stabs him in
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: the heart, and I'm like, how did he not die
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: from that wound? I don't know. He's a super super villain,
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: you know. There are certain moments where I'm like, I
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: he's he gets injured so many times, he's like restpute
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: and grade like number of attempts made on his life
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: before he finally dies. Yeah, but so yeah, She's basically
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: just like it's because I'm a woman that you never
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: suspected me, Like this is how I got away with it.
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: I was invisible to you. And then she cuts up
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: his face, tells him you won't be the first pig
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: I gutt it, and we're just like, whoa go. I
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: didn't remember that part of the movie. I guess I
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: had just kind of forgotten that since the last time
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: I watched it. And maybe it's a little just like
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: I don't know, just like kind of surface level, like
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: whou feminism go? But it worked on me. I was like,
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: hell yeah, Mercy best. But then it's the thing that's
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: sad about it is that she she does. I mean,
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: I'm glad that she I mean, of any character in
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: the whole movie, she well, yeah, she like her getting
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: the killing blow on him, and that second scene where
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: he's like, you know, trying to do the honorable soldier
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: thing and be like, tell my Greg, like what time
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: it was when I died and she's like, Greg, won't
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 1: even know your name was Greg, and then she kills
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: Like that is like, so what made me sad on
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: the second watch for this recording was she says explicitly like, motherfucker,
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: don't touch the girl. But then he does, he kills
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: he kills her. Yeah, but then he's killed for that,
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: but it's like he still kills her. He didn't. I
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: just I'm like, why didn't that fascions learn something? Because
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: they don't have the capacity to learn many cases, And
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: I like that they give that. Delta gives Mercedes an
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: in her life as well, because I feel like sometimes
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: with like rebel characters, all you know about them is
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: like they are fighting for the right thing, and you don't.
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: And I mean honestly, like Mercedes being a member of
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: the underclass on top of being underestimated as a woman,
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: on top of having a huge heart and sense of
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: direction is enough. But I like that we also see
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: that she is doing this for her family, and she's
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: like I like that you kind of get to know
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: some people in her world as well, because I always
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: kind of forget that. You meet her brother and you
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: get to like get some insight into why she does
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: what she does, um and that they're kind of working together,
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: and I just I like that. I like that you
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: get that background for her. I think, in uh watching it,
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: that scene is awesome, But in also true horror fashion,
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: I find myself asking why didn't you kill him then?
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: Like you had your chance. You could have killed the
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: villain right then and there, especially in reference to gutting
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: a pig, which you get more grotesque with it, you
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: would slice the throat open, thus killing the pig, killing
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: the man. I like, you had it right there, and
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: they're going to try to kill her either way, so
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: she might as well just finish the job. But I
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: think it also those speaks to be like huge gap
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: in capacity for violence, whereas he would have no trouble
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: doing that. But she is like, you know, I'm not
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: an evil person like you are, Like I wouldn't cut
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: someone throat like that. Like, yeah, she's probably like I
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: wouldn't stoop to murder. Maybe, but it's just like when
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: he brutally kills an entire family for nothing. Right, it's
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: like some time like considering the circumstances, I don't know,
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: slid his throat, like he was incapacitated, he was injured
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: enough that she probably could have done it. Yeah, then
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: you get into a whole the whole like spiral of
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: Then that changes the movie. Then you got to write
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: it differently, so like how would failure have survived or
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: how you know, how would this change? And I, you know,
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: I just want to see what does that look like?
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: We need some AlterNet endings. Speaking of spiral, the mo
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: Wanna spiral from Disney's Mohanna is also on the Faun's head.
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: It was like, all this spiral imagery across both movies,
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: there's a conspiracy here. I was like it because I
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: was about to be like and that is the work
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: of the illuminati, And for the next forty five minutes,
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 1: I would like to take you starting with jay Z
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: and Beyonce at the top. Let's so they're obviously in
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: control of the app Um, yeah, a lot of I
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: mean there's Honestly, the movie is so dense that there
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 1: were some images and references where I'm like, I know
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: that this probably means something, but but there's only so
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 1: much time. Um. This was the first viewing of this
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: movie that I saw the captain's constant razor blading of
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: his face to have some significance of like he he
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: has this obsession with control and order, but also and
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: and you know, is down to use violence to achieve
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: kind of arbitrary order of his choosing. So I was like, okay,
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: I get at that time, delto I see you, I
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: see you. I used to just think this guy grows
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: a beard really fast, but I was wrong. Um, it
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 1: was like, what does what could that mean? He beards fast?
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: I love the moment where like he holds the blade
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: to the mirror and cuts his own throat, because like, yeah,
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: I feel like that's the moment where you've already seen
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: a do all these scene acts, but that's when you're like, oh,
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: he like he loves this, Like he this is what
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: he wants he's just so obsessed with death and dying
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: and wanting to go out in a blaze of glory.
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: And it's there and it's subtle, but I would I
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: do want to know more about the daddy issues. Yeah, okay,
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: so let's talk about this. So this sort of I've
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 1: found this really interesting because I mean, Jamie, we've also
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: talked a lot about how, like so many movies just
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: kind of boiled down to like a father son relationship
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: or that's always some undertone or overtone and a lot
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: of movies. So here I appreciate that we get an
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: exploration of how that kind of obsessiveness with like my
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: father and my son can be really toxic, and that
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: it can stem from a really kind of morbid place
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: that has nothing to do with familial love and it
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: has everything to do with just like like societal roles
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 1: and expectations and all of ye. Yeah, so the Dell
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: is obsessed with his father, we come to learn, which
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: we learned because he keeps his broken watch with him,
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: and then we find out the backstory of this watch
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 1: where his father died heroically in battle and as he
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: was dying, he like smashed the face of the watch
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: so that his son would know the exact time he died,
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: because that's how a brave man dies, according to this,
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: Because like, this is my first time hearing this, but
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: I'll I'll go with him. That's also such an an
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: odd thing for you to want your kids, like I
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: want him to know that time. Not that I loved
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: him that, but the time when its like this time
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: has actually been very traumatizing for him to know all
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: this time. And here's something I don't get, so maybe
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: you can help me understand this. But so we find
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: out this backstory and then the guy at Dinners like Fidel,
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 1: is that true? And he's like, no, that's nonsense. My
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 1: father didn't even own a watch, even though we've seen
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: said watch with the smashed face of it many times
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 1: because he's constantly looking at it and like fiddling with it.
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 1: So I was confused as to why he would deny
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 1: that same that. That's kind of why it made it
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 1: so curious to me, because he's so obviously obsessed with it.
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: But then why would he deny it? Yeah, I don't
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: know if it was more of his like pride or
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: he's like, I'm I don't have feelings I don't keep
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: my daddy's broken watch with me, and I don't put
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 1: it under my polluminate sleep. Like I kind of it
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 1: was easy for me to read that as he was lying,
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 1: because otherwise it does kind of muddle that. But yeah,
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: I was a little confused about that as well. But
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 1: why would he lie? I think it has to do
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 1: somewhat with a like having to live under that shadow,
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: because the officer was just like your father was such
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: an incredible soldier undertone that you'll never be able to
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: live up to. Uh, And so he's like fuck him.
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 1: That's you know, you didn't have a watch him. But
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: one of the other like visual things that Germo has
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 1: noted that I don't think I ever would have understood
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: otherwise was that, uh, the entire movie lives alone in
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 1: what I think is the mill or whatever that giant
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 1: room is. But that giant mill symbolizes a giant broken
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 1: clock because the background is all cogs and machines that
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 1: are not moving. So he is so obsessed. He's literally,
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 1: you know, cocooned himself inside of a broken clock. That's
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 1: all he lives for is smashing that clock and to die. Yes,
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 1: I read that too. Yeah, that I was like, well,
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 1: I guess I have to watch the movie again. Fine. Um,
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 1: what I found funny about this whole watch thing is
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 1: it basically the same exact thing happens in pulp fiction
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 1: when Christopher Walkin comes in and he's like, hey, Bruce
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 1: Willis character as a kid, be your daddy kept this
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 1: watch up his butthole for two years so that I
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 1: couldn't then give it to you. And it's like, Okay,
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 1: I don't know, but but like just a little bit
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: more about this kind of father's son obsession, saying where
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 1: then we learn before the baby is before baby Greg
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: is born, they don't know the sex of the baby,
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 1: but he just keeps assuming it's a boy, you know,
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 1: biologically male. I'm like annoyed that he was right about that,
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 1: But it is a Greg everyone everyone, I mean, so
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 1: does um Carmen and uh Failia also takes this at
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 1: face value as well, So I yeah, it would be
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 1: interesting if they turned out to not be right. But um,
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 1: I guess it it serves the story that it is
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: like a male baby because then he can continue to
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 1: be obsessed with it. And it does make that moment
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: at the end with like you mentioned, Jamie, where Mercedes
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: is like, you're son, isn't even gonna know your name? Bang,
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: You're dead Greg SRG. Yeah, and then you would you
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: would think best case scenario. And again, because we're talking
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 1: about such a violent period of time, we don't know,
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 1: but ideally baby Greg will be brought up by by
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 1: rebels and would be kind of you know, that makes
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 1: that's another way in which Ophelia's sacrifice would not have
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 1: been in vain. That she is inadvertently getting, you know,
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 1: her little brother a better life, um, at least spiritually
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 1: and probably in every way than he would have had
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 1: if he had stayed with the Captain. Yes, I had
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 1: a quick thing I wanted to address here that um
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 1: that I mean, it's it's kind of service, but I
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 1: just wanted to, I guess, just even reference it because
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 1: it seems like del Toro is kind of unambiguously referencing
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 1: Alice in Wonderland a few different times in this um,
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 1: like most prominently with the literal dress, which she isn't
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 1: you know, very fond of. But there it is of
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 1: this story that is usually told and written by men,
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 1: that features a young girl going into a tunnel and
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 1: learning going into a floor vagina, learning a thing or
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 1: two about a sing or two, and then coming out
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 1: on the other side in one way. So I just
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 1: wanted to reference um the other movies, some of which
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 1: we've covered, that take the same tax. So obviously it
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 1: seems like the at least the popular genesis of it
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 1: is Alice in Wonderland, where a young girl falls into
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 1: a floor of vagina and meets a bunch of men
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: that don't like her and and also in that case
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 1: a mean queen, and then you know, she comes out.
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 1: We've covered Coraline. That is another another a vagina that
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 1: pops up, swallows her up. She learns a lot about her,
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 1: her role in the world, and her feelings about her parents.
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 1: She's popped out of the vagina in the world. This
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 1: also happens in Spirited Away, a movie. I have not
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 1: seen it in many years, so I can't speak to
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 1: the specifics of it, but it's much the same. Uh.
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 1: Young girl tumbles into a natural vagina, pops out changed um,
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 1: and then pans labyrinth where this is This is the
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 1: floor of vagina approach where she goes down a series
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 1: of tunnels, meets a series of foes, and then I mean,
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 1: I think the most tragic example where she doesn't survived
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 1: in the traditional sense, but her memory survives, and she
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 1: kind of graduates into she's not even going to move
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 1: out of the floor of vagina, She's just going to
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 1: live there. I also wanted to uh, back up my
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 1: my Little Journey to Womanhood metaphord, not because not just
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 1: because they're is such a huge precedent for it in
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 1: fiction from male a tours that are generally very very loved.
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 1: So again, I'm not like dumping on it, but it
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 1: is a thing I did a little bit of research on,
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 1: like the Fun and Pan, The fun and and the like.
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 1: The mythological creature of Pan traditionally is like a very
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 1: sexual character. So if we're reading that, you know, Pan
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 1: is presenting himself and his little goat legs to to Ophelia,
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 1: saying a series of things to her that are very confusing,
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 1: giving her a bunch of what seems to her like
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 1: random goals that she hasn't fully understand. I feel like
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 1: that does lend itself to the read of like she
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 1: is on this journey towards figuring out what womanhood is
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 1: to her, because literally, the sex God shows up and
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: she was like, I don't know what this guy is
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 1: talking about because she's ted. So that's my little rant
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 1: on girls and holes. We love to toss a girl
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 1: into a hole in popular culture. We just love it.
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 1: I was worried about that too, because it's called pans
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 1: labyrinth in the English translation of the title, but not
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 1: in the Spanish one. It just translates to the labyrinth
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 1: of the fawn or the fawn's labyrinth. But I guess
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 1: because Pan was a more recognizable thing than a fawn,
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 1: which for me that wasn't true. I was like, I
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 1: don't know what Pan. I had to get certainly misled
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 1: some of us. Yeah, it's not Peter Pan, so what
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 1: the hell? Um? Yeah, so what's the point? Unclear? But
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 1: del Toro has said that even though this English translation
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 1: of the title identifies the fawn as Pan, that the
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 1: fon is not Pan in the movie, and has said quote,
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 1: if he was Pan, the girl would be in deep ship. Um,
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 1: and its very clearly stated that it is not. But
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 1: nonetheless the fun is also closely. Faun is still deceptive
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 1: and there's some sex stuff with Yeah, and then I
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 1: but then I also found Aristotle. I would love your
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 1: take on this if you look at the I mean,
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 1: aside from the fact that the poster is not about
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 1: Peter pan Um, every poster I was able to find
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 1: for this movie is a gaping vagina and there's just
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 1: no way around it. Like the marketing of this movie
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 1: was a lot of pussy. But I was able to
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 1: find a quote from del Toro that kind of pushes
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 1: against that reading. I guess it just is. Really this
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 1: is a case study in like I mean, he's saying
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 1: it's not there, but I can't stop seeing it. Where
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 1: he was asked in an interview with Filter mag the
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 1: Russian was um. So often in fairytale analysis, there's a
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 1: tendency to read any story of a young girl as
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 1: a psycho sexual parable. But this film specifically doesn't go
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 1: that way, Thoughts and del Toro says it doesn't at all.
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 1: I consciously avoided it, not out of prudishness, but out
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 1: of the same reason why I tried to avoid the
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 1: myth of vampire vampireism in Chronos. Blah blah blah blah blah.
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 1: Up about Chronos in Pan's Labyrinth, I knew the psycho
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 1: sexual angle was really tired. It felt very nineteen eighties
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 1: for me, and I felt this was a movie about
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 1: a girl who was on the threshold of making a
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 1: choice where she could cease to be a girl. But
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 1: it was not about sexual identity, which I don't even
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 1: think pushes back against how I feel that much, because
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 1: it doesn't seem like a sexual identity thing as much
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 1: as it is of like figuring out how you can
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 1: survive as a woman in this world. I don't know, Yeah,
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 1: because there's nothing inherently sexual in any of this. It's
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 1: all very much about it does. But that's also wild
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 1: hymn to say, because everything is a uterus in this movie.
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 1: Like I have Bragg, I have the Criterion Blue ray
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 1: that is literally a vagina Aristotle. Yes, I did not
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 1: even see that until, like, until you brought it up. Now,
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 1: I mean I recognize the like it's a beautiful artwork
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 1: by Becky Clunan. I want. I wanted the poster so bad.
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 1: Of course, it's sold out in seconds, but it's it's
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 1: similar as the regular poster where it's kind of the tree,
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 1: but it's also kind of the fawn's head. It all
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 1: looks like a uterus, but that is she is coming
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 1: out of a vagina, like the you know, the it's
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 1: right there. It scrambles my brand. I don't think that
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 1: there's anything wrong with this, but it is always weird
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 1: to me when a male filmmaker is like, it's not
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 1: that I'm like, but do you are you looking at
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 1: it like I'm looking at it Like it's just I
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 1: don't know. It is definitely an interpretation thing, but and
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 1: it also is a set design thing. But because we
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 1: know del Toro is so involved in the process, it's
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 1: kind of not like, well, he just showed up and
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 1: there were all these vaginas in the floor, like he
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 1: I don't know. And I feel like this also kind
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 1: of goes back to the essay that I mentioned initially
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 1: that he's trying to influence your view of it with
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 1: what his intention is, but that doesn't mean that that's
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 1: still not there because he's still a man raised in
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 1: a extremely patriarchal society, so that of course he has
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 1: major blind spots that he just can't see. I think
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 1: and we all kind of have that. We all have
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 1: major blind spot you just cannot see because you don't
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 1: know that they're there. That's why I really appreciated this
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 1: critical essay of him because you know, it does kind
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 1: of make me appreciate him more while also recognizing, you know,
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 1: not perfect. I love I love the hell out of
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 1: this movie. There's and there is a vagina on every post,
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 1: and both of those things can be true. Well, I'm
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 1: also disturbed at this trend of it being I mean,
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 1: the suggestion that it is is it can there be
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 1: a psycho sexual interpretation of this movie about a ten
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 1: year old girl? Like why is that even entering the
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 1: conversation for like the film critics and and like the
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 1: filmmakers who are like, yeah, let me put all this
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 1: vagina imagery into a movie about a ten year old,
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 1: Like I don't I hate it? I agree, but I
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 1: also feel like it's a valid question to ask because
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 1: it does happen. It is the right It's yeah, it's
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 1: not so much the questioning of it, but it's more like,
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 1: why is this imagery that we that we would see
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 1: in a movie about a ten year old girl who
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 1: is like about to start to come of age kind
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 1: of thing? You know, Like it just it feels weird.
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 1: It's uncomfortact that it even has to enter the conversation.
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 1: That's what I mean. I feel like I would appreciate
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 1: it more if he was more directing. I was like, yes,
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 1: it's about becoming a woman. She's never sexualized, we don't,
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 1: you know, sex has never brought up, but you know,
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 1: people grow up. It hasn't happened, right, Yeah, And I
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 1: think I would appreciate that way more than like no, no,
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 1: no, no no, that's not it. It seems like a little yeah,
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 1: this answer it. I had to read it like a
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 1: few different times because it was like, I feel like
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 1: that is almost that conversation that's telling because it's conflating
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 1: coming of age with sex, which is, you know, a
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 1: part of coming of age is navigating your feelings around sex.
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 1: But it's not the only thing that happens. Come of age,
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 1: so much happens. But the idea that like you're reducing
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 1: coming of age to like when losing your get your
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 1: period or white like having sex for the first time,
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 1: it's and it's also that's also like obviously a very
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 1: like sis normative thing where it's like, well, you're you know,
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 1: you're a woman as soon as you get your period,
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 1: and it's like no. I went back to school the
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 1: next day and I didn't know what kind of lingas
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 1: was for five years. Still I would say that so
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 1: little of my life had changed other than we I
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 1: feel like we've talked about this. I just was like,
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 1: I think I shipped myself, and my mom's like you didn't,
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 1: and I was like, all right, moving on, Yeah, I guess.
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 1: I mean, if there is going to be so much
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 1: vagina and uterus imagery, and I would rather there be
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 1: injury vaginal blood, like for a movie that doesn't really
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 1: deal in sex very much, I feel like it's disingenuous
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 1: to imply, like I mean on his end of like
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 1: it doesn't have a lot to do with sex, but
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 1: it does have a lot to do with like women's
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 1: bodies or like sis women in a in a way
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 1: that isn't exploitative, but it is very present. I don't know,
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 1: it's confusing to talk about. And where I come down
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 1: on the whole thing is like, if you're gonna throw
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 1: a bunch of all this imagery into your movie, then
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 1: make the protagonist an adult woman and not a ten
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 1: year old girl, I guess. And then also like, what
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 1: does assist man know about a maturing female body? And
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 1: why is there that obsession with it? Called bo burn
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 1: him off? Let's get Bo Burnham on the horn. Um,
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 1: And as much as I love eighth grade and as
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 1: much as I love pianez La Brentha, it is it
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 1: really did makes you question, like why this is such
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 1: a prevalent Well, we're really like why it is such
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 1: a prevalent storytell like why is it such a pervasive
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 1: cultural story for a man to write a story about
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 1: a little girl falling into a vagina and learning something?
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 1: And why why is it always assist man telling that story?
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 1: I just I mean again, I love this movie to death,
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 1: but it's it's like worth bringing up and I feel
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 1: like we had not as in death, but like a
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 1: similar ish conversation in Coraline of like why is Neil
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 1: Gaiman just like tossing this little girl into a vagina
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 1: to learn a lesson? Why is it? What? It just?
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 1: It just happens a lot. So the moral of the
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 1: story is I would appreciate more coming of age stories
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 1: for little girls and more heroes journey narratives about girls
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 1: and women that are actually written and made by women.
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 1: But that said, this movie fucking rock. I wouldn't change
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 1: a thing. And it's it's complicated, Okay, this movie is
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 1: the greatest and it's also weird, but that's like, that's
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 1: the beauty there. It is King of the weirdos. True, Yeah,
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 1: he's man. I also realized like halfway through that we
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 1: we acknowledged the shirt that I'm wearing, But did it
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 1: specifically say that it's a shirt that you got me
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 1: that says directed by Gamma de Toro. Yes, send us
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 1: a picture of yourself wearing it, if you would, Aristotle,
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 1: and then we'll post it on our Instagram. We'll do,
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 1: We'll do. You have a favorite del Toro movie at
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 1: present slash has it ever changed? I do, and it
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 1: was gonna be something. I don't know if we're wrapping now,
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 1: because I was going to recommend um Hans Labyrinth objectively
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 1: good film, Oscar winning, beautiful, gorgeous movie. The Devil's Backbone
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 1: is his other I believe he has three movies in
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 1: Spanish objectively his best movies. The other ones are great
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 1: and fun, but those are like truly the best, most meaningful,
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 1: I guess, except for Coronasconos is good, but it's a
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 1: little more cool than meaningful. But Devil's Backbone my favorite movie.
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 1: I have a tattoo right here on my arm of
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 1: once again then, but the Criterion collection cover, and that's
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 1: kind of the other side of Little Boys in a
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 1: Boy's Home during the Spanish War hands his post. This
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 1: is during and I read the Delta says that pans
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 1: Obyrinth is the sort of like spiritual or thematic sequel
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 1: to The Devil Backbone, even though they're not necessarily like
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 1: narratively sequels. They're like kind of spiritually companion films in
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 1: the sense that they both take place during the Spanish War.
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 1: But there's also I like to think that he has
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 1: created a universe that he hasn't touched since of you know,
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 1: a very dark, sad, grim world with a lighter side
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 1: of the things that we consider dark, Like you know,
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 1: the beautiful note always a Pan's Labyrinth is like, there's
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 1: all these scary things happening in the fantasy world, but
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 1: none of them are as dark or as horrifying. Is
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 1: what's happening in our world that actually happened, Like, none
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 1: of it is as evil as that. And it's kind
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 1: of the same thing with Devil's Backbone, where it's a
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 1: ghost story, but the ghost isn't the problem. It's the
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 1: men in the movie. Yeah, and it's a much smaller,
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 1: more intimate movie. I feel like that doesn't make sense.
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 1: But when you if you see it, you get it. Yeah,
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 1: I gotta watch it that Unfortunately, I don't think it's
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 1: streaming anywhere. It's almost never anywhere. That's why I had
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 1: to buy the Blue Ring. But it's worth it. And
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 1: then Pacific Rim which we've done before too, and that's
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 1: more of like a big dumb fun movie. We're gonna
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 1: do it. We're going to get to shave the water
• 1:28:17
  Speaker 1: at some point because again, talking about the Dug Jones Fish,
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 1: we didn't even talk about Doug Jones King. Doug Jones.
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 1: He learned Spanish for this movie. They didn't use his
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 1: voice learned how to learn. They didn't. They didn't use
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 1: his voice, but they did. He did learn Spanish for it,
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 1: but it wasn't good enough, so they dubbed it over
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 1: with the Spanish speaking actor's voice dog, but Doug Jones rocks.
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 1: I found out that he And it's too bad because
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 1: this is a cultural image that has been taken by
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 1: the alt right, which I didn't learn until I was like,
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 1: this is fun and then everyone was like not anymore. Um,
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 1: but do you remember that McDonald's mascot from the eighties
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 1: that was called mac Tonight and it's just a mascot
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 1: with a huge crescent moon for a head. Yes, that's
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 1: Doug Jones. Wait for McDonald's or because I'm thinking of
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 1: U J. J. Leno right or Conan one of them
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 1: also had a moon headed mascot. Maybe they were copying it,
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 1: or maybe the other way around. But yeah, mac Tonight
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 1: was I don't know before my time, but he was
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 1: a guy with a big crescent moon and it was
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 1: about getting food and McDonald at night. I see it's
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 1: all right now they all right. I don't even want
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 1: to know what they've done with mac Tonight, but apparently
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 1: they took him. He's gone. But he's Doug Jones back
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 1: in the day. That was an early Doug Jones gig
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 1: guy with a big he loves a big prosthetics. Sure
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 1: do well, even with the huge as moon head. He's like,
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 1: I'll do it, Jamie. Would you agree? Alfred Molina should
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 1: have been in this movie? Yeah, he is part Spanish,
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 1: he should he as an actor Spanish descent. Yeah, I
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 1: mean he is bilingual, like I feel. But then I
• 1:30:06
  Speaker 1: do feel like if he was in this movie. He
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 1: would have been playing someone really terrible, and I'm almost
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 1: glad he's not in it because I don't want to
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 1: see him be a bad guy. I think he would
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 1: have made a great doctor call. Yeah, he would. He
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 1: would have fit. He would have fit in this world too.
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 1: I don't even know what I'm saying when I'm saying
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 1: that he fits in like a fantasy movie, and he
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 1: fits in a period piece like in many ways, Pan's
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 1: Labyrinth is a period piece. Yes, indeed, thanks for the
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 1: excuse to go to Alfred Billina's Wikipedia today. What was
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 1: he doing this year? Well, maybe he was. Maybe he
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 1: was offered to roll and turned it down instead, he
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 1: might have been doing something like the Da Vinci Code.
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 1: I hope that's not true. That would be such a
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 1: bummer if he was like, can't no, can do Guiarmo,
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 1: I got a sweet in the Da Vinci Code. I
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 1: don't know. This movie is so goddamn good. It's also
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 1: where it's not even worth noting. You just want to
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 1: throw it out there that Enrico Lupi, who plays the
• 1:31:12
  Speaker 1: king Father character, is also in the Devil's Backbone and
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 1: in Chronos. He's another of your most frequenters until he
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 1: passed well. And also, um, the woman who plays Mercedes
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 1: is I recognized her from Et Mama Tempion. Yes, yes
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 1: she is. She think is the only other movie I've
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 1: seen her in the way. Let me make more great connections.
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 1: Garmo A Fonso Krone in Youoritu three best friends. Alfonso
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 1: helped produce this movie. Yeah, I didn't realize that until
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 1: researching for them. You know, he was involved in it,
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 1: and that there was also I read on the scholarly
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 1: journal Wikipedia dot org that there was like some disagreement
• 1:31:56
  Speaker 1: about whether or that Inatu said that he viewed Pants
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 1: Labyrinth as a truly Catholic film, and then del Toro
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 1: was like no, which seems like it's kind of his thing.
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 1: He's like that read is is No is a no
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 1: for me, which is so hard to like. I don't
• 1:32:16
  Speaker 1: understand how he can say that when he's so obsessed
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 1: with Catholic imagery, Like that's just so his jam and
• 1:32:23
  Speaker 1: he was raised Catholic and he kind of hates it,
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 1: I guess, but you can't ignore that it's there. Well,
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 1: that's what I kind of yeah sometimes I mean, And
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 1: also I have if I'm like I am I'm like,
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 1: I guess if I were, if I were making something
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 1: on such a large scale, I bet I would have
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 1: some control issues with it as well. Of like, no,
• 1:32:40
  Speaker 1: that wasn't what I was saying. I was saying this,
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 1: but but even so, it's like when you're able to
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 1: make something on such a big scale, it's like it's
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 1: cool that people can see different stuff in it and
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 1: like see parts of them. I don't know, And also
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 1: just like it's to be definitively like it's not about Catholic,
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 1: Like I guess, I don't this like implies that you
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 1: have more control over your what you're putting out subconsciously
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 1: than you actually do. I don't know. Wow, art is
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 1: complicated art. Does anyone have any final thoughts about the film?
• 1:33:16
  Speaker 1: He needs to make more Spanish speaking movies, hasn't done
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 1: so in a long time. Yeah, what was the last one?
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 1: It was Pants? And then he went to do more
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 1: Hell Boys and then specific ram Aple Water Crimson Peak.
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 1: I always forget that was him. And then didn't he
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 1: burn a couple of years doing like almost doing Hobbit
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 1: and then not doing Hobbit. Yes, well, this movie does
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 1: pass the b actual test between Ophelia and her mother Carmen.
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 1: Between Ophelia and Mercedes um as far as our nipple
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 1: scale zero to five nipples based on an examination through
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 1: an intersectional feminist lens, This one it's tricky for me
• 1:34:03
  Speaker 1: because on one hand, you have this, like again a
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 1: hero's journey narrative that is led by a woman, three women, really,
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 1: I mean especially, and then two women or two female
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 1: characters emerges like the most heroic characters of the film,
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 1: between Ophelia and Mercedes. And then I like that it's
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 1: a fairy tale narrative that is about a female character,
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 1: but it is not like a princess having to get
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 1: rescued and falling in love with a prince, because like
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 1: I think, Disney, uh, and you know, other entities have
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 1: kind of conditioned us to think, oh, fairy tale, that's
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 1: probably about a princess falling in love with a prince.
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 1: So but I still like that you have like all that,
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 1: like you have like an evil step father this time
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 1: in versions all that good ship. A lot of the
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 1: components are there, a lot of the conventions are there,
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 1: but it it subverts a lot of that stuff, you know,
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 1: by being critical of fascism and you know, so you know,
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 1: it's just the characters. I mean between again Ophelia and
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 1: Mercedes especially, it's two female characters with a ton of
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 1: agency who are driving the narrative. But then you have
• 1:35:24
  Speaker 1: the whole and again, I don't know if it's just
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 1: how my brain works, where I am not good at
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 1: picking up on symbolism and I'm not good at picking
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 1: up on visual metaphors, like I just didn't even occur
• 1:35:36
  Speaker 1: to me all of the like and I know it's
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 1: right there, but just like all of the vagina and
• 1:35:41
  Speaker 1: the blood and like what that might mean? And what
• 1:35:47
  Speaker 1: is the obsession with so many like male auteurs telling
• 1:35:53
  Speaker 1: stories about girls going into what could be interpreted as
• 1:35:57
  Speaker 1: a vagina whole and it's and then having an adventure
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 1: there um, and like what are the implications of all
• 1:36:04
  Speaker 1: of that? I don't know how to make sense with that.
• 1:36:07
  Speaker 1: I'm like reminded of my days in film school brag
• 1:36:11
  Speaker 1: where I would take like film studies class that had
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 1: these like interpretations that I'm just like, what are you
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 1: talking about? That's not there. I don't see that at all.
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 1: And then I'm like, well, maybe it is there. I
• 1:36:21
  Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know again, I just don't know
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 1: how to read things that are not extremely explicit. I
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 1: guess so, and if you're roasting yourself, I don't know.
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 1: I was like finished, but still has in yourself all
• 1:36:37
  Speaker 1: everything that I it seems like I understood came from
• 1:36:41
  Speaker 1: reading Garamoa's words. Yeah, and then also realizing he just
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 1: has a certain language where some of those things are
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 1: kind of repeated throughout all of his movies. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 1:36:51
  Speaker 1: I guess like knowing you're knowing his entire catalog, definitely,
• 1:36:56
  Speaker 1: he sure. Yeah, he loves asa metrical circle things. Yeah,
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 1: the Moana spiral it's there for um, which is also
• 1:37:09
  Speaker 1: probably like symbolism that it refers to something that I
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 1: don't know about. Yeah, that one, I'm like not smart enough,
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 1: don't know. So with all of that in mind, I
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 1: don't know what to rate this. I really love this
• 1:37:23
  Speaker 1: movie on a like just purely like I love watching
• 1:37:27
  Speaker 1: this movie. I'd give it a million nipples on our
• 1:37:30
  Speaker 1: nipple scale. I don't know. I guess it would be
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 1: like a three point seven five or a four. It's
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 1: still rates really highly based on the characters and what
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 1: they do and the various kind of thematic things I
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 1: don't know what is everyone else gonna do. I'm gonna Klein,
• 1:37:57
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna, I'm gonna I'm gonna do three three point
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 1: seven five. I think between that, yeah, because I mean,
• 1:38:05
  Speaker 1: there is so much being done here in the fantasy
• 1:38:08
  Speaker 1: genre that you don't get to see very much. You
• 1:38:11
  Speaker 1: get also like, I feel like we we hit on
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 1: it here and there, but like the commentary being made
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 1: on class here, even though I didn't realize what aristole
• 1:38:19
  Speaker 1: you brought up. It's kind of at the expense of
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 1: historical accuracy. But I really like the commentary being made
• 1:38:26
  Speaker 1: on class here and the trauma that can come with
• 1:38:31
  Speaker 1: trying to get out of the class that you were
• 1:38:34
  Speaker 1: born in um in order to survive, and the sacrifices
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 1: that come with that. Like, I feel like del Toro
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 1: is really good at having those conversations a lot of
• 1:38:44
  Speaker 1: the time and has a way of I mean, just
• 1:38:48
  Speaker 1: based on the stuff of his I've seen, it seems
• 1:38:50
  Speaker 1: to be like a champion of the working person. I'm
• 1:38:53
  Speaker 1: very critical of the upper class, which, uh, a lot
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 1: of movies aren't. Where it's like, this is a movie
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 1: about a princess, and it is about how the marquis,
• 1:39:04
  Speaker 1: who are these people that they're in charge of? We
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 1: don't care. So, in addition to three female protagonists that
• 1:39:10
  Speaker 1: all are very different and have very different faiths, it
• 1:39:14
  Speaker 1: makes me sad that the female hero's journey results in
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 1: most likely her death. But it makes sense in the story,
• 1:39:23
  Speaker 1: and I feel like that ties into other commentary that
• 1:39:26
  Speaker 1: he's making. So it worked for me. It makes sense. Yeah,
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 1: I did the vagina metaphor. I mean, is I think
• 1:39:36
  Speaker 1: I got more. It doesn't really bother me. It bothered
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 1: me more when I found out that He's like, no,
• 1:39:41
  Speaker 1: it isn't. I'm like, come on the So maybe that
• 1:39:47
  Speaker 1: was me just being a little like but it but
• 1:39:51
  Speaker 1: but she walking into a vaginta guarmo and that's okay,
• 1:39:55
  Speaker 1: but just like, don't be like it comes off a
• 1:39:58
  Speaker 1: little fawn like no, no, no, don't question it, right,
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 1: So so that I mean it also is like kind
• 1:40:05
  Speaker 1: of any and he's interestingly he like is very clearly
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 1: inspired by another narrative that uses this exact convention of
• 1:40:13
  Speaker 1: tossing a girl in a hole to learn a lesson.
• 1:40:15
  Speaker 1: He is openly admitted to that, but maybe doesn't I
• 1:40:18
  Speaker 1: don't know. I thought that that was interesting. I'm gonna
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 1: go three point seven five because that's just what I'm
• 1:40:26
  Speaker 1: doing today. I love this movie so much. It will
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 1: always be my first Del Toro, my favor Del Toro,
• 1:40:35
  Speaker 1: and Doug Jones forever. That is what I had to
• 1:40:41
  Speaker 1: say at three point seven five. And I'll give one
• 1:40:43
  Speaker 1: to each of the main three characters, and I'll give
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 1: my last point seven five to the ferry that gets
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 1: their head bitten off. I was also thinking three and
• 1:40:54
  Speaker 1: a half, but I do. I end of want to
• 1:40:58
  Speaker 1: give it four because I think under a critical lens
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 1: there's lots of faults and lots of things that could
• 1:41:07
  Speaker 1: be improved upon or made clearer. But I think overall
• 1:41:12
  Speaker 1: net good. It's a movie about two women, more than
• 1:41:16
  Speaker 1: all three, but two women being rebellious in the face
• 1:41:19
  Speaker 1: of extreme oppression, and I think that is it. You know,
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 1: it's not a children's movie, but it can at least
• 1:41:26
  Speaker 1: be hopeful in a good lesson taught. So net good
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 1: for sure. Not good. Yeah, I would say four, though
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 1: that also feels at a little bit much, right, That's okay.
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 1: I think I'll settle on a three point seven five
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 1: because I think there's still room to maybe give Mercedes
• 1:41:45
  Speaker 1: a little bit more characterization. I think there's room to
• 1:41:48
  Speaker 1: have given the mother a little bit more characterization and
• 1:41:50
  Speaker 1: more fully explain kind of like why she made some
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 1: of the choices she's made. And yeah, it's it just
• 1:41:57
  Speaker 1: could have gone a little bit further, I think with
• 1:42:00
  Speaker 1: some of the characterization. So I'll land on at three
• 1:42:03
  Speaker 1: point seven five and all my all, my nipples. How
• 1:42:08
  Speaker 1: many nipples does it? Dug drones fawn have? They must
• 1:42:13
  Speaker 1: have four? Well, if a fawn is a part goat, right, goats,
• 1:42:19
  Speaker 1: I believe you know, off the top of your head,
• 1:42:20
  Speaker 1: I think they're they have like a four utter situation,
• 1:42:24
  Speaker 1: much like a cow. So that's my guess. I don't know.
• 1:42:28
  Speaker 1: I really hate that this has become a part of
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 1: my personality that I just know how nipples don't I
• 1:42:37
  Speaker 1: want to really and you know what this ends today?
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 1: This thing never never talked to me about. Yeah, no
• 1:42:45
  Speaker 1: more cat facts. I'm moving on to something else what
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 1: I don't know. But anyways to the toad. Oh yes,
• 1:42:56
  Speaker 1: feminist icon, queer icon, the toad. The toad. Watching the
• 1:43:01
  Speaker 1: toad deflate never doesn't make me laugh. When the when
• 1:43:07
  Speaker 1: the toad is just like I'm a balloon. I'll give
• 1:43:12
  Speaker 1: my three point seven five nipples, you know what, I'll
• 1:43:15
  Speaker 1: give him to the pale all of them to the
• 1:43:18
  Speaker 1: pale man. Yeah, we never what was the pale man's
• 1:43:23
  Speaker 1: real story? He has murals of him torturing children hanging
• 1:43:28
  Speaker 1: up in his little cave, but like, who painted them?
• 1:43:32
  Speaker 1: Did he commission someone? Yeah? Yeah, he's got a whole
• 1:43:36
  Speaker 1: sh morgus board of food that he that you're not
• 1:43:38
  Speaker 1: allowed to eat? What is that? Is that class commentary
• 1:43:41
  Speaker 1: that only the rich are allowed to eat the luxurious food?
• 1:43:45
  Speaker 1: Also shout out to the production designer of this movie
• 1:43:49
  Speaker 1: for for so many reasons, right, but mostly because I'm like,
• 1:43:52
  Speaker 1: those grapes did look good, so tasty. Usually when someone
• 1:43:57
  Speaker 1: like eats the forbidden freedom like that doesn't even like,
• 1:44:00
  Speaker 1: like you must be so hungry, but the grapes are like,
• 1:44:02
  Speaker 1: those grapes are gigantic. Though, I have to get back
• 1:44:05
  Speaker 1: into it. But that also was a little bit of
• 1:44:07
  Speaker 1: a question for me, was we know that she's rebellious,
• 1:44:12
  Speaker 1: so that's our understanding of why she does it purely
• 1:44:15
  Speaker 1: out of rebellion. Because she is so rebellious, she disobeys
• 1:44:19
  Speaker 1: what the font tells her. It's the grapes, but there's
• 1:44:22
  Speaker 1: also no reason, like she has proven to be a
• 1:44:25
  Speaker 1: very strong character, and you know, never do we learn
• 1:44:28
  Speaker 1: that she likes sweets or fruits or anything. We never
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 1: there's no like you missed your meal. There was no
• 1:44:35
  Speaker 1: real reason for her to have any strong feeling towards
• 1:44:38
  Speaker 1: those grapes, Like she could have easily gone out of there,
• 1:44:42
  Speaker 1: but for some reason we get the temptation and she
• 1:44:45
  Speaker 1: fails too. Because it's like the other comparable like story thing.
• 1:44:52
  Speaker 1: I was like, Oh, it's like when Aladdin takes the lamp,
• 1:44:54
  Speaker 1: but you also know why he wants to take the lamp,
• 1:44:56
  Speaker 1: and that's kind of like set into his character when
• 1:44:59
  Speaker 1: you know him, of like, while he survives by taking,
• 1:45:04
  Speaker 1: like he has to, he has to deal to survive.
• 1:45:06
  Speaker 1: This is built into his character where, yeah, it's not
• 1:45:10
  Speaker 1: totally clear why she eats the grape other than the
• 1:45:13
  Speaker 1: big old grape because it just looks so tatous. Well,
• 1:45:15
  Speaker 1: there is that scene where like she's sent to bed
• 1:45:18
  Speaker 1: without dinner, but that happens several days before this, so
• 1:45:22
  Speaker 1: it's not as though she's like hungry, and I don't
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 1: think she's still hungry from that. I don't know if
• 1:45:26
  Speaker 1: that's a really good point. Yeah, I'm not sure. Well,
• 1:45:29
  Speaker 1: Giarmo answered that question. What are we supposed to say
• 1:45:32
  Speaker 1: about that? Sir? We won't ask you about Vagina's ever again,
• 1:45:35
  Speaker 1: we promise. Well, Aristotle has been such a delight to
• 1:45:41
  Speaker 1: have you here. Thanks for coming on the Castle. It's
• 1:45:48
  Speaker 1: just nice to have you back. I know, we lower
• 1:45:51
  Speaker 1: the embargo on men and then you come on for
• 1:45:54
  Speaker 1: an episode, and then we raised the gate back. I
• 1:45:58
  Speaker 1: appreciate it. Yes, of course, where can people follow you
• 1:46:04
  Speaker 1: online and check out anything? You'd like to plug? Aris?
• 1:46:08
  Speaker 1: Tacos on everything except for TikTok, you know, because who
• 1:46:12
  Speaker 1: knows why Why make the account if it's not going
• 1:46:15
  Speaker 1: to be there? Yeah, all these tacos and everything. But
• 1:46:19
  Speaker 1: I also want to shout out D s A and
• 1:46:22
  Speaker 1: water Drop and street Watch and all those organizations and
• 1:46:26
  Speaker 1: being involved with those and finding your local version of
• 1:46:29
  Speaker 1: that because they're happening everywhere, and though not always perfect organizations,
• 1:46:34
  Speaker 1: they are doing net good. Yes, and the work that
• 1:46:39
  Speaker 1: you know other people should be doing and blatantly aren't.
• 1:46:43
  Speaker 1: So mutual aid is the way, the light, the direction.
• 1:46:49
  Speaker 1: Can I also just say Aristotle that you posted some
• 1:46:52
  Speaker 1: videos I think in July about like how to reduce
• 1:46:54
  Speaker 1: your single use plastic waste, and I like really took
• 1:46:59
  Speaker 1: it to her and I'm like taking a lot of
• 1:47:02
  Speaker 1: measures to very drastically reduce the single use plastic in
• 1:47:07
  Speaker 1: my life. Awesome, thanks for that. Yes, I've got a
• 1:47:10
  Speaker 1: lot of good response from those videos, but I just
• 1:47:14
  Speaker 1: hated doing it. I don't. I was like, I hate
• 1:47:16
  Speaker 1: having this camera on me and just talking into it,
• 1:47:19
  Speaker 1: so I'm just gonna stop. Well, it worked work. You
• 1:47:24
  Speaker 1: are legally obligated to start a YouTube channel. M Well,
• 1:47:31
  Speaker 1: speaking of YouTube, we do have a channel, but we
• 1:47:34
  Speaker 1: don't post anything of it but instead and don't expect
• 1:47:38
  Speaker 1: that to start. Sorry, but you can follow us on
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 1: Twitter and Instagram at Bechtel Cast. You can subscribe to
• 1:47:47
  Speaker 1: our patreon ak Matreon. It's five dollars a month. It
• 1:47:50
  Speaker 1: gets you access to two bonus episodes every single month,
• 1:47:52
  Speaker 1: plus the entire back catalog of bonus episodes, and that's
• 1:47:57
  Speaker 1: at patreon dot com. Slash Bectel asked with that, shall
• 1:48:02
  Speaker 1: we shall we go back down to a pretty I'm
• 1:48:07
  Speaker 1: pretty hungry If you guys wanna see if we swipe
• 1:48:10
  Speaker 1: something from the pie Man. Yes, let's do it all right,
• 1:48:14
  Speaker 1: by by bye,