Latest / The Twin History Podcast / Why the World Went to War: The Road to 1914 Part 4

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Why the World Went to War: The Road to 1914 Part 4 · The Twin History Podcast

0:00
Just a little heads up for this week's episode.
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Please be aware there's some noise distortion from time to
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time. It should not ruin your
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listening pleasure. Thank you.
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The Twin History Podcast brings together 2 Black Scotsman, 2
0:17
twins, 1 historian and one storyteller to explore the
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moments that shaped our world. The show features Joe McCann,
0:27
the eldest twin and resident storyteller, the one always
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asking why any of this actually matters, alongside Johnny
0:36
McCann, 13 minutes younger, and the historian.
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Equipped with the dates, the fact and the receipt.
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Every week, they invite listeners to pull up a chair as
0:48
they unpack some of history's greatest tales.
0:53
The ones you think you know, the ones you've never heard, and the
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ones that hit different when told by them.
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Enjoy. So this is a twin history
2:10
podcast. This will be episode number.
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What are we now, Johnny? This will be episode 8.
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Wonder isn't it episode 6? Oh yeah, it's absolute six.
2:20
Yeah. Sorry I can't carry it.
2:23
Well, I we may have a few many swords sprinkled around there
2:28
before these episodes and the Great War come out.
2:33
So there there's 4 episodes. This is our 4th and final
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episodes on the causes of the First World War.
2:40
How's your week been, Johnny? Yeah, it's been OK actually.
2:43
Thanks for asking. I have to ask.
2:46
I'm obligated. Unfortunately, you're you're
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obligated. Nothing much going on.
2:50
So we are just quiet. How is it?
2:53
And historical circles, what's the reaction to the podcast
2:58
being amongst your peers? Yeah, we've had positive and
3:01
negative feedback, which is part of the business.
3:04
So yeah, I mean, I've enjoyed listening to the various takes
3:09
on the podcast thus far. No ideas of March, sorry.
3:15
No ideas of March? No.
3:16
Like jealousy or just someone stabbing you.
3:20
And not yet. Not yet.
3:23
We'll get to that. We'll get there's.
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We're going to have special guests on this podcast as we go
3:28
along. We're just establishing our own
3:31
rhythm. And then late and later pods,
3:34
we'll invite some people on to join us.
3:36
Yeah, we'll have people on for interviews.
3:39
Well, this will be the main format of the show.
3:41
So if you're not invested in this, I I would suggest that now
3:46
is the time to turn off the podcast, turn off the pod.
3:48
Turn off the pod. Yeah, you probably wouldn't have
3:51
got this far if you you were going to turn off the pod.
3:54
So, yeah. And we do appreciate the the
3:57
people who have stayed with us and who have been listening to
4:00
our episodes. We hope it's informative as well
4:04
as enjoyable. And most of the feedback we've
4:07
got so far has said that is very detailed.
4:10
And it has to because history is very detailed.
4:12
And The thing is that as detailed as it is, for example,
4:17
someone said to me the the JFK first episode was so detailed,
4:22
they were surprised how detailed it was.
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There's so much we left out as well.
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So I wonder if the that person ever got to the second episode
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because that's even more detailed than the first.
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Yeah, I said, I said if you find the JFK episodes or data away
4:37
until we get to the First World War episodes, well, hopefully
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you're all still listening to the Twin History podcast or
4:45
series on the First World War and the causes of it.
4:49
We are about to jump back into it now.
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So will this be our final episode?
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Yeah. I mean, some listeners will be
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hoping our final episode ever. But yeah, certainly it's our
5:01
final episode on the First World of War for now.
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Maybe we'll do like separate stories on it, but the general
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war and the causes of the First World War, This will be our
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final episode on it. So 4th and final episode.
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Well, we've covered a lot of ground on this and there's a lot
5:16
more to cover, I believe. Yeah, well, this we will get
5:20
into who I believe or what I believe where was the main cause
5:26
of the First World War. Well, that sounds great.
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And listeners, I I hope you're ready for that.
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And in terms of the First World War, we'll definitely cover it
5:37
again. It's such a dense topic.
5:39
We've not even touched on the the bare bones of it.
5:44
Yeah. I mean, I remember high school
5:47
and one of the schools I worked on, one of the kids asked me if
5:51
it were true that Hitler, because obviously Hitler served
5:54
in the even though he was Austrian, he, he was so
5:57
enthusiastic about signing up for the German armager in the
6:02
first world. Yeah, he was.
6:04
He was meant to do the equivalent of what would be like
6:08
national service. So some countries still have
6:11
national service today, South Korea, North Korea, Israel,
6:18
sadly. But yeah, he was meant to do a
6:22
national service when he was younger and he fled into
6:24
Germany. So maybe that's why he didn't
6:26
join the Austrian, Austro, Hungarian army.
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They, they would have definitely to come.
6:31
He volunteered for the German infantry and what?
6:35
One of the kids at school asked me if if the story was true,
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what did the kid at school ask you?
6:41
Sorry, Hitler was a dispatch writer.
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So like the French dispatch, the Wes Anderson film?
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No, What? I don't even know what that is.
6:52
How can you say no then if you don't know what it is?
6:54
Well, is it about the First World War?
6:56
Is it about writers and post war France?
7:01
It's about a magazine called the French racers.
7:03
I said riders. Rider.
7:05
What the hell is that? Dispatch rider?
7:08
All right, OK, a rider as in we have a special guest, the big
7:13
guys. But I had dispatch driver as in
7:16
he's a lot shy. The special guest is my infants.
7:20
Well, toddler's son now you're a big boy now, aren't you?
7:24
We're sorry if you paid for this podcast, because I I don't think
7:27
anyone's paying at this point. This is very old professional.
7:30
So at this is trying to delete the pods.
7:33
Yeah. You're not a fan of it, are you?
7:35
So anyway, a dispatch writer is someone.
7:39
Obviously, when you're up the front, it's hard to get messages
7:44
transmitting back and forth. So we'll see.
7:48
You've seen 1917. No, No, I never watched that.
7:52
I know you haven't watched it because you hate Sam Mendes.
7:56
So basically basically the premise of 1917 as someone has
8:04
to relay a message to the fraud. So it takes him like two or
8:08
three days to relay the message. But reality went to that one so
8:13
well, I should ruin in the movie.
8:15
Yeah, Henry despatch Raiders would be given a mess.
8:18
I lost some lenders. I was wanted to watch that and
8:21
they were however, too, I got lost.
8:23
No man's land. Usually they go by bike and like
8:27
pass the message on. So Hitler, that was his job.
8:30
What was he using the most days? What was his mode of
8:33
transportation? Well, he used the bike as I
8:35
said, and he was given. You said normally they go by
8:38
bike so. Well, he would.
8:41
I'm a Simon Hitler had some kind of find Jirku, some a helicopter
8:46
or something. It was odd though in the First
8:49
World War. Well, yeah, why would he?
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Why would anyone? Jesus Christ, he no, he merely
8:57
went by foot or by bite. I'm joking as as I know this
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awarded Iron Cross for bravery in the First World War for for
9:06
doing for dispatch a message during like a critical time at
9:12
the front. So, but according to Ian
9:15
Kershaw, wasn't like a remarkable feat, but it did show
9:18
courage. So anyway, one of the kids in
9:21
skill, one of the kids in school, yes, he asked if the
9:26
story were true, that a British sniper had Hitler and his sights
9:30
during the First World War and he decided not to shoot him out
9:35
of the moment of humanity on the British snipers part.
9:39
But the story definitely isn't true.
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How would they know it was Hitler?
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Yeah, that's what I mean. I mean, we've never, like, did a
9:48
guy remember when Hitler was running rampant throughout
9:51
Europa? Yeah, I was about to blow his
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head off. But now you wish I had.
9:55
You'd go that game famous, a major Hitler, I think, and
9:59
unique. And the outbreak of war, the
10:01
first world of War. When Hitler's like you, 40, the
10:04
divorce happens, got the mummy. And there's a famous image of,
10:08
like, celebrating in the crowd. So maybe isn't this akin to your
10:17
bunker mentality speech in one of our previous episodes?
10:21
I forget which one. It was the JFK episode too.
10:24
Oh yeah, I keep shock of this one.
10:27
Yeah, I try to, but I like where I got like a very like an
10:32
encyclopaedic memory on both of your genocidal maniacs so.
10:37
Well I mean he was like I was 50s when he Daleks so maybe I
10:42
still have time. I think we'll strike that from
10:46
the podcast. But anyway.
10:48
But isn't this a British? Isn't this a bunker mentality?
10:53
Or akin to bunker mentality? The British trying to paint
10:56
themselves in a good light? But isn't there about famous
10:59
story where a British general or soldier had Washington and his
11:05
sights during the Revolutionary War and he was going to shoot,
11:09
but he decided not to because, well, just because of it was bad
11:14
sportsmanship or bad warfare? The soldier this person was, but
11:19
he had them. He saw him and he's like, I
11:20
could shoot him and kill him now and end this war probably.
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But because it was a sneak attack, he doesn't, he doesn't
11:28
take that shot. So the fighting with Hitler and
11:31
the sniper, perhaps it's just the British trying to make
11:34
themselves look good after the fact.
11:37
Yeah, that's true about the British sniper.
11:39
Thanks for bringing that up. I don't think it would have
11:42
ended the war. I mean, it would have just made
11:43
them a martyr. It wouldn't have ended the war.
11:47
I mean, if anything, it would have made the American patriots
11:51
more passionate about their 'cause I'd say if a British
11:54
sniper had shot like Washington. I mean, you have to remember so
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much propaganda came out of that war and the lead up to the war.
12:05
So we had the Boston Massacre in 1770 where a crowd in Boston,
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some people were shot and killed by the British Army.
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And the American patriots used this for propaganda and they
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used it superbly. And this rallied a lot of people
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to their cause who otherwise may not have wanted to get involved
12:30
in the American Revolutionary War.
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I think around about 8 to 11 people were killed by the
12:40
British military in Boston during a demonstration or during
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a protest. And the the American patriots
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turned it into, I mean, fair play to them.
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They turned it into like a huge like propaganda when and you've
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got Paul Levieres famous like right.
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You sure coming? No, no, but it's famous
13:02
engraving this famous painting the the Boston Massacre.
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And it's basically just British soldiers, red coats lined up
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with their guns raised, just shooting into these doe eyed
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innocents who are all trying to rather swavingly and and that's
13:18
yeah, indiscriminately. And that's not what happened at
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all. Basically, the soldiers were
13:22
young, they were inexperienced and they just panicked when the
13:26
crowd surged. They just panicked.
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So it wasn't compatible to like, I don't know, like Bloody
13:33
Sunday, where that was indiscriminate killing.
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That was an order given to show that soldiers just panic.
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So the and you know which twin on the twin history podcast, the
13:44
supports unjustified killings of civilians.
13:49
So hey, no one supports unjustified because no, they
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were young and they panic that that sounds like a the crowd
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surged and they panicked. They just panicked.
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Someone like went towards them. They just panicked.
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There wasn't a massacre, but the American patriots in Washington.
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Look at Paul Revere's beautiful like painting of it to be after
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you don't have to but there's there's no this shows you how
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well the the like propaganda war was won like even Jefferson he
14:23
was violent against King George for Britain's role and the the
14:28
slave trade is like dude like you're a slave in your base.
14:32
Yeah you're you're your own slaves.
14:34
It's like you're you're going against the British for being
14:38
involved in the slave trade one of your own slaves.
14:40
But it treated those slaves anyway.
14:41
We've got we all of they aren't me talking about the causes of
14:44
First World War. Yeah.
14:46
And you were asking about or so. Yeah, 11 interested question
14:51
folks always have is that Hitler show up to that also Hungarian
14:56
army office with two paintings under his arms and please take
15:00
me and they look at they looked at the I didn't.
15:04
I don't know what that even means.
15:05
They looked at the painters and they said, of course we're not
15:07
taking this shit. Go back to whatever shit thing
15:10
you're from and we never want to see you again.
15:13
And then years later this guy who turned them down opened the
15:16
fingers like, Oh my God, I'm going to be shot in front of a
15:20
firing squad. Well, you're making that up
15:23
entirely and I am making that up.
15:25
But obviously I did not happen. And when he went to the Austrian
15:29
School of Art, Vienna School of Art, he he doesn't turn up with
15:33
paint and he was asked to paint something whether that's what he
15:37
was. You should get the reference.
15:38
That's what he meant. He showed up with no, I got the
15:40
reference. But I I you seem to be you were
15:44
explaining the story like it were true, like it was true.
15:47
Well, obviously listeners that it's a joke.
15:50
And I think you'll know by now when I'm joking and when I'm
15:52
cities. So yeah, but there's always that
15:56
sliding door moment and if Hitler had got into that
15:59
helicopter instead of the on the bake with the First World War.
16:04
I'm sorry, with the Second World War have happened.
16:07
OK, we'll we'll do the causes of the Second World War down the
16:10
roads. Well, now, you know, we're going
16:11
to get into the Second World War at some point.
16:13
I mean, that's everyone's favourite World War.
16:16
So yeah. What favourite World War?
16:19
Well, it is. I mean, how many movies have
16:21
been made about the Second World War?
16:23
How many TV shows, how many pics have been written?
16:27
People are dying. I wouldn't say the last 24 hours
16:30
have been exciting, Would you? What is that from Independence
16:33
Day? It's like, that's not about the
16:35
Second World War. It's not about the same World
16:37
War. But you're you're talking like
16:38
people love the the Second World War because there was so much
16:41
death and destruction. No, I don't.
16:43
We don't know. It was a fascinating war.
16:45
It was a it was a justified war in a sense, which, Yeah.
16:49
I mean, we, we went into that in an earlier episode.
16:52
And I remember you asked me about now we'll get into that on
16:57
another pod. OK, listeners, we'll get into
17:00
that in another pod. One thing to bear in mind is my
17:03
pod or son is running around here somewhere.
17:05
I've lost him about 20 minutes ago.
17:07
He may emerge from some cupboard in a few moments, but where he
17:13
is right now, I don't know. His name is Atlas, by the way.
17:16
He says hello. You may hear him in the
17:17
background. So we're recording under fire
17:21
shower scene. It's like those, it's like those
17:23
war correspondents who've got bullets flying over their head.
17:26
And in my case, I've got toy trains flying over to my head
17:30
and bits of Lego being chopped at me.
17:32
Well, well, that that's hardly like a valid comparison.
17:35
But OK, if I guess, because at least those war reporters got to
17:39
go home. I am home with my son.
17:41
Well, I mean, a lot of the ones how many like reporters in
17:46
Palestine were killed in the last year like 240 or something
17:50
incredible amount. But those those ones aren't
17:53
acknowledged by Western media, unfortunately.
17:57
No, unfortunately. So let's go back to what we were
18:00
discussing. Yeah, we have went off topic a
18:02
little bit, a little bit. Well, we are talking about first
18:07
one war still with Hitler and and obviously the all wars led
18:13
to this war. So let's get to the causes.
18:17
We'll get back into it in one moment.
18:19
So yeah, we've gone back and forth on it for quite a while
18:23
now. But let's get into the causes of
18:26
the First World War. This is why we're here.
18:28
Obviously. This is why what we're here to
18:30
discuss. So Johnny, can you tell us who
18:33
you think was responsible for the First World War or the
18:37
outbreak of the war on the previous pods?
18:41
We are the previous episodes into the First World War.
18:43
We went into many different factors which contributed to the
18:47
war. Yes, we both, yeah, we, we, we
18:51
definitely that. So the cause of the of the First
18:54
World War is one of the most fascinating debates and the
18:57
histography. So obviously, as we said before,
19:00
the debate is raged for the last one hundred 116 years or more.
19:06
And we'll continue to do so for the next 100, as we said
19:09
earlier. So, again, to bring up Hitler,
19:13
unlike the Second World War, Hitler again, for Christ's sake.
19:16
Yeah, unlike the Second World War, when Hitler's genocidal and
19:21
criminal embracement of Lieberstrom and Volshek Volshek
19:27
nationalism in danger of the security of the entire globe and
19:30
our peoples. There's not an obvious reason
19:33
for the European powers to go to war in 1914, is there?
19:37
So we're asking you. Yeah, well, you are.
19:39
So the we got four years of the orders of trench warfare, the
19:44
lack of clear military objectives, the advancement and
19:47
weaponry, and the utter incompetence of military
19:51
leaders. It was advancement and weaponry
19:54
was helicopters. The hell, for God's sake that I
19:58
need to get off helicopters. You need to get off helicopters.
20:01
So that was to lead to one of the most appalling conflicts in
20:05
human history. And I've got a boat, if you
20:07
don't mind me reading that. I thought you were reading a
20:10
quote there. No, please go on.
20:12
No, no, I was not reading the quotes.
20:13
So this is from Thomas Otti who I mentioned before for me wrote
20:18
the best book on the causes of First World War.
20:21
It's called The July Crisis. Isn't this a guy that all of
20:25
Germany hated? That was Fischer.
20:28
Well how am I gonna remember that?
20:30
Just go on. Otti's book is like it was
20:33
written on the 100 year anniversary or released on the
20:36
100 year anniversary of the First World War.
20:38
OK, so Fischer would have been dead by them.
20:41
So Otti was. He's well liked by the German
20:44
people. Well, again, to get off.
20:50
No, no, I'm not getting off topic.
20:52
I'll just read. Read the quote.
20:54
Yeah, the quote. You know, we love quotes.
20:56
We've said that many times. So please, we'll say about
20:58
Aughty. We're indebted to him.
21:00
Macmillan. Mason.
21:02
Bridget. Hamann, Ian.
21:03
Kershaw, Robert. Mackey.
21:06
Mumbar. Vitier waits Steven Beller and
21:11
myself, you know, like Tina Turner sat tight when she he
21:17
thought she couldn't remember the words to not Bush city
21:20
limits. And she's like, of course I can
21:22
remember the words like I fucking wrote it.
21:25
OK, so other historians, you know, other historians.
21:29
So I should remember back to one of the episodes we had the the
21:34
infamous war guilt clause and the Treaty of for size.
21:38
Yeah, It'd be like a brand editor.
21:40
So first ever episode, their first episode on this series,
21:43
first episode on the First World War.
21:45
Yeah. So Otti writes that.
21:49
And this is in reference to the war guilt clause and other
21:54
factors. Yeah.
21:56
What does he write? What?
21:57
There's Otti say. Yeah.
21:59
That's a guy who was is beloved by the Germans, right.
22:02
Not the other guy who was. Yeah, not for sure.
22:04
Yeah, he was thrown off that bridge.
22:07
What? What?
22:07
What bridge? Didn't you say they threw Fisher
22:10
off a bridge? I don't say why would they throw
22:12
him off the bridge? Because they don't agree with
22:14
his historical analysis. Well, I'm sure you or some
22:19
historian claimed that Fisher was thrown off.
22:21
Well, I have never at any point claimed Fisher was thrown off a
22:25
bridge because he's if she received German policy and the
22:31
Second World War to like Prussian a defect in the in the
22:36
German character. I mean, I never said that All
22:39
right, fair enough. He wasn't thrown off a bitch.
22:41
What did they ought to say. So he said it may also be asked
22:45
how useful the concept of blame As for the purposes of
22:48
historical analysis. So who has to judge objectively
22:53
on and on the base of basis of which criteria whether Austria
22:58
Hungary's ambition to maintain an empire that provided a
23:02
framework from the more or less peaceful coexistence of various
23:06
nationalities have greater validity than Serbia's pursuit
23:10
of a Yucos lab project? It is a form of intellectual
23:15
surrender for the abdication of the historians task to examine
23:19
and offer a rational judgement of the past.
23:21
So you subscribe to the intellectual surrender your man
23:26
is talking about? No, I I wouldn't say that.
23:29
And I agree with him in a sense. I mean, I was taught at
23:33
university by my outstanding professors, that is historians.
23:37
We have to be analytical and dispassionate and research and
23:40
writing even when studying emotive subjects like the
23:43
enslavement of African people or the Holocaust.
23:47
However, for me, the actions of primarily men throughout history
23:52
have had fatal consequences for millions of others.
23:55
So as historians, we should not put these men in the fugitive
23:58
dock that I wrote that arty refers to.
24:02
But we can also go ahead. Why not?
24:05
Why shouldn't we? No.
24:08
Well, if you let let me finish. Jesus Christ.
24:10
Oh, I am. I'm waiting for you to answer my
24:12
question. OK, well, why shouldn't we?
24:14
Because we we shouldn't pick them in that dot, but we can
24:18
also not absolve them of their impurities and competence,
24:22
aggressiveness and share and the say.
24:25
Therefore, I assert that the Austro Hungarian Empire in a
24:28
desire to maintain her status, to destroy Pan Slavism and to
24:35
handle the national question, we're responsible for the
24:38
outbreak of the First World War. So I've argued in previous paper
24:42
papers that the Second World War would not have taken place
24:45
without a personality as unhinged as Hitler.
24:48
Hitler made the mockery of traditional diplomacy.
24:51
This is the First World War, bro, We're getting off topic
24:53
again. Yes, we are getting off topic.
24:55
But if you let me finish, I will let you finish.
24:57
But OK, I, I'm, I'm here to steer this conversation in the
25:02
correct direction. So, and you're doing a wonderful
25:04
job. Thank you.
25:06
As he said, I to to again the admittedly harsh conditions of
25:10
the tree of her size. So as I said earlier, unlike
25:13
Fisher and Keenan, I know a proponent, proponent of the 30
25:16
years war thesis that the Second World War was a direct
25:20
continuation of the first. I remember we talked about that
25:23
before we did talk about that. So after this episode, yeah.
25:29
Oh, a previous episode. So the the post war malou of, of
25:33
Europe made the Hitler possible, possible.
25:35
Hitler may have not, may have not created those conditions,
25:39
but his actions made war inevitable.
25:41
But even after the assassination of Franz Ferdinand and his
25:44
lovely wife Sophia in Sarajevo, you're not speaking about his
25:48
lovely wife Sophia again. You've already been refrimanded
25:51
for that, bro. Yeah, I have.
25:53
I have been. And how do we know Hitler didn't
25:55
create those conditions? How do we know he wasn't some
25:57
kind of interdimensional being became.
26:00
Well, that's for the Second World War.
26:02
OK, OK, let's go back to that. So even after the assassination
26:05
of Franz Ferdinand and his wife, OK, his his wife that we don't
26:09
have to cover the wife, but she was murdered as well.
26:12
Her host is already sued there. When has to be a state.
26:15
So it already said the podcast. I mean, we're lagging on by your
26:20
fingernails Here we are just about we're not.
26:24
We're in my kitchen just now with one microphone.
26:29
So as I said, even after the assassination of Franz Ferdinand
26:32
and his wife's and Sarajevo, so his wife, his wife not get the
26:37
fuck out of here, you pervert. Then I warn you well that he's
26:41
Hawking her. That's a punch shock.
26:43
Well, that's what archstrip France 1st.
26:45
And that said, when you refer to his wife as as lovely Sophia as
26:50
they lay in a hail of bullets. Forget fire from your gun.
26:53
Forget the wife. Forget the wife.
26:55
OK. You're like Jim Carrey and Dumb
26:58
and Dumber when you saw Sophia and when Archdeac had been
27:02
rescued from the hands of friendship from the Goodfellas.
27:06
OK. Hey, let's go.
27:08
So go where? Well, what else are you?
27:11
I lost my train of thought. I mean what you were talking
27:14
about inevitability of war, Yeah.
27:17
War was not an inevitability in the summer of 1914.
27:23
So their actions were not genocide or nefarious.
27:25
But the behaviour of the Austro Hungarian officials at the Bowl
27:28
house plats that summer was the main reason that Europe was to
27:32
find herself at war and why the long peace was to be shattered.
27:36
So if they've been less than transition and they're thinking
27:39
more open than negotiations and not hell bent on an obliterate
27:43
them, Pan Slavism Europe would not have gone to war in the
27:46
summer of 1914. So we're blaming them for
27:49
everything basically. Well, I am not for everything,
27:52
but the Austro Hungarian Empire was given the opportunity to
27:55
step back from the Cliff face that summer.
27:57
But she willfully, adamantly and disastrously stepped head first
28:02
into the curbial waters below. This impertinence was to lead to
28:06
the dissolution of the Austro Hung Austro Hungarian Empire and
28:10
seismic event. So the empire would not have
28:13
survived even it being on the Victoria side in the First World
28:15
War, as evidenced by the many factors above.
28:19
And as we went into, there were other separate factors that we
28:22
looked at that were also significant.
28:25
They varied a lot. Yeah, yeah, sorry.
28:28
Yeah. Were factors were those the
28:30
British and German naval race, The complete breakdown of
28:33
diplomacy, democratic changes, the allies network, the
28:37
ambitions of the European powers and the lack of foresight and
28:40
anticipates on how brutal a general war would be so it can
28:43
be argued and I would argue that these factors may eventually
28:48
sorry I bet you would yeah yeah may have eventually brought
28:52
about a conflict of the magnitude of the First World
28:55
War. However, the role of Austria,
28:58
Austria Hungary in the summer of 1914 was the primary reason why
29:02
the European continent was to be engaged in war.
29:06
Thus, Austria Hungary were culpable for engendering the
29:10
First World War. That's my belief.
29:13
OK, that's your belief. But again, I would have to come
29:17
in not with my theory, but we don't have a feeling.
29:20
Yeah, I probably don't have a feeling.
29:22
I may have a theory. I'm not.
29:24
Let me work that one out. But I would say that war was
29:28
inevitable, wasn't it? There would if it wasn't Austro
29:30
Hungary. It starts and it would have been
29:32
someone else. Well, I just said that.
29:34
I said it would have happened at some point.
29:36
It's just like the Russian, the Russian dynasty, the Romanoffs.
29:41
Even if they had been on the Victoria side in the First World
29:45
War, the Romanoffs would have fell eventually at some point in
29:48
the 20s. We actually had the great
29:51
episode recorded on the heir to the Romano floor, Anna Anderson,
29:57
but unfortunately, that one had to be scrapped.
29:59
Who? Anna Anderson.
30:01
Anastasia. Oh, Anastasia.
30:03
OK, can you not remember that episode?
30:06
We never recorded that episode. I remember that sort of shit
30:11
episode. That is where a future also,
30:13
right? Go on Johnny.
30:14
So great to try work with. She specialised in Russian
30:18
studies and I asked her about that, whether she fought the
30:21
Romanov dynasty, would have endured them to the 21st at 20th
30:25
century and she said no. Even if they'd been on the
30:29
Victoria side in the First World War, they would they would have
30:32
eventually been. Why Vanquish?
30:37
I would say abolish. Why our royal family still
30:39
kicking about. Yeah, our royal family still
30:42
kicking about. But our royal family is more is
30:46
less. I mean, we went into Zara
30:49
Nicholas the Second, who thought that he, his crime was bestowed
30:54
on him from God. So you do get to a point where
30:57
people become more educated, like the serfs, the working
31:02
class start to read more and they might begin to question
31:05
that more. Whatever, you hear it.
31:07
Yeah. Yeah.
31:09
The plebs, as you call them. Yeah.
31:12
Offer. I I don't call anyone plebs.
31:14
Offer. We grew up in one of them.
31:16
And my wife always rinses me for years in this term, one of the
31:19
most destitute areas in Scotland.
31:21
And so I I'll never use that term.
31:24
Well, as I said to my wealthy friends and benefactors, I'm,
31:28
I'm from the streets. Yeah.
31:30
Well, as I say it to the kids at school, like so many of them has
31:34
said, because the schools I worked in have been schools in
31:39
low income areas and they always say like, oh, you're so posh and
31:43
stuff because of your accent. I'm like guys, like I was
31:46
running the gauntlet on the streets of Mary Hill when you
31:50
guys were even a forefall and your pens spray and I was
31:54
involved in gang warfare and them police drive by and
31:59
shootings and everything. So there was no drive by
32:02
shootings. Yeah, they weren't drive by
32:04
shootings. But I mean, it was even drive by
32:06
knife and spun it. Yeah, their stab wounds.
32:09
And like it wasn't a very safe place to grow up anyway.
32:13
It certainly wasn't. But we both survived and we're
32:16
here talking to our ever going listenership.
32:19
Well, I mean, we'll see if we have any listeners after this
32:22
long like amount of episodes on the the First World War.
32:27
Yeah, we definitely will have. So yeah, I mean that that's a
32:32
different argument altogether. But yeah, as I said, there were
32:35
so many factors that led to the war.
32:39
But for me, Aust, Austria, Hungary, they could have
32:44
negotiated that summer. And as we said, Serbia accepted
32:48
most of their conditions on the ultimatum.
32:51
So they had a chance. It does negotiate with me.
32:55
No, they don't because they they were they let me or demands and
32:59
we walk. Well, do you remember what I
33:01
said alternate and was as very essence is the declaration of
33:06
war because you know that Serbia cannot adhere to all that
33:10
without. So basically they wanted to go
33:13
to war regardless of anything Serbia would have done.
33:18
So they were always going to war.
33:21
But if you look at the Austro Hungarian Empire, what what are
33:25
the feelings in those countries? I would assume that those
33:28
countries are not throwing their hands up saying, OK, you've got
33:31
me. It was like they're they're
33:34
probably not feel that they're responsible for the outbreak of
33:37
war. Well, well, David Lloyd George,
33:40
the British Prime Minister. Yeah, Please ask with Henry, ask
33:45
with during the First World of War, he said he was chancellor
33:50
for a while as well. He he said that we just kind of
33:54
all slivered over the edge, I think.
33:57
Was this terror? Yeah.
33:58
So the argument there is that the war has happened regardless.
34:02
I'm sure Hungry might be the one driving the car off the cleft,
34:06
but no one's pitting their foot on the brake.
34:09
Yeah, great point. Great point.
34:11
Again, I'm going to argue the like the British foreign
34:16
minister, he did try his best. Thank you.
34:20
He did try his best to stop the world from going to war.
34:25
Punkier, the French Prime Minister, and Saganoff, the the
34:31
Russian equivalent of the foreign minister.
34:34
They did all they could to stop the war from becoming a general
34:39
war. But yeah, you're right.
34:40
And as I said here in my summation, that those all those
34:47
other factors would have led to a war eventually.
34:49
Yeah, Europe was ripe for war, as you it was.
34:52
I mean, Europe was on the brink after like the Balkan wars in 19
34:56
O 8 and 1912 and the Moroccan crisis.
35:00
And it that matter. He was going to like the fuse,
35:03
whoever the fuse was going to be lit regardless.
35:06
I mean, it doesn't matter, of course.
35:08
I mean, the fuse was going to be lap.
35:09
But for me in the summer of 1914, a general war does not
35:15
happen without the actions of the Austro Hungarians.
35:19
But when does it happen? And it's probably a year later,
35:21
two years later it's it's happening anyway, as you said to
35:24
yourself, it is happening at some point, maybe 2345 years
35:28
later. It's going to happen is going to
35:30
all those factors are going to come to the boil and it's going
35:34
to erupt into a massive conflict somewhere which will lead to a
35:40
general war. OK, but does anyone argue
35:43
against that theory? Does is there a theory there
35:48
were historian may argue that the war was not inevitable.
35:53
The war would not have happened. No, I mean, I, I don't think
35:58
most historians of the First World War would argue that that
36:02
the war. But does anyone have a dissent
36:06
in view a very bad conditions leading to a general war at some
36:11
point or just that the war was happening regardless, no matter
36:15
what, no what matter what was done?
36:18
No, I, I, I I've it's out there. I don't know of it.
36:21
I'm not aware of it, but there, there will be someone who
36:24
believes that, but it's, it's not really something that I
36:30
would agree with and most historians would agree with
36:33
there. There was going to be a war at
36:34
some point. I, as I said, the tragic thing
36:38
in 1914 is the war did not have to happen.
36:41
So that that is the most upsetting thing about it.
36:44
But yes, those conditions were going to lead to a war
36:47
eventually, you know, and the war.
36:49
Is there any argument to suggest that it would have been less
36:54
deadly, less the classic of if it had it, if it had broke out
37:01
at a later date? Well, no, it would have been
37:04
just as dead there, even me, maybe even more so because
37:08
weaponry was advancing with every past year or so.
37:12
It would have been even more deadly.
37:15
OK, so let's not deal on hypotheticals.
37:18
I mean, whether another World War would have happened post
37:24
1914 if it hadn't happened then summer 1914, we will never know.
37:30
But we're dealing in, we're dealing with what happened in
37:34
1914. So for me, as I said, Austria
37:38
Hunsary were the primary drivers, the primary engine that
37:43
led to war in 1914. OK, well, we've covered a lot of
37:49
ground on this subject. It's been a fascinating lesson.
37:53
We hope It's been a fascinating lesson.
37:55
Oh, for me, on this horror side of the table, it's been
37:57
fascinating. I found out a lot about World
38:00
War 10 I didn't know before and I would say I really apologise
38:04
for first hello, I really apologise for some of our
38:10
pronunciations on the German names and such.
38:12
We why do we have to keep apologising?
38:14
You're it's like asking the German people to continually
38:17
apologise about World War 2 for case.
38:20
OK, OK, by anything else to in your summation?
38:24
No, I thought I've said an earlier episode, the First World
38:28
War is the one that upsets me more than most.
38:31
I went into an earlier episode with them, just particularly in
38:35
Britain and the lost generation of of young men.
38:39
And they basically, you don't want to say they died for
38:41
nothing, but they were fighting for something that to me remains
38:47
on the clear even to this day. Well, and interesting, we had
38:52
the family member who was at the Battle of the song.
38:56
Yeah, he died. He died on the.
38:58
I think he died the first day of the song.
39:00
Oh, I would assume he died because everyone did.
39:02
Well, not everyone. Everyone on that he was involved
39:06
in that battle pretty much was wiped out.
39:08
Yeah. And again, that shows.
39:10
And again, look at Jordan Keegan's great group on the
39:13
First World War if you want more about military tactics.
39:17
But, yeah, the Battle of the Psalm is maybe just the perfect
39:21
illustration of how disastrous the First World War was.
39:26
What is a battle when Mel Gibson goes over the top.
39:30
Over the top? Yeah.
39:32
Well, what he and Braveheart. What the hell were you talking
39:36
about? No, it's not Braveheart.
39:37
It's a it's a Papiano Papi. Oh, yeah.
39:40
I've never seen it. Mel Gibson's on it did.
39:42
Yeah. That's the Australian one.
39:44
I've never seen it. Yeah.
39:45
That was their Psalm essentially, wasn't it?
39:47
Yeah, I've never seen it. Well, you know, the Mel Gibson
39:50
fought in that battle. So he.
39:51
He fought in that battle. Yeah, no, I don't know much
39:54
about that, You know, and that that's maybe a great point.
39:57
I mean the Empire was a huge reason why Breton was on a
40:03
successful side and both Wagga Wars, the Empire and I remember
40:09
that absolutely wolvesome Lawrence Fox in 1917.
40:15
He was complaining because there was a sick soldier and one of
40:18
the scenes is like because he's. Obviously very racist.
40:23
They were saying, I don't find a Sikh soldier would have been
40:26
there as like motherfucker, we heard of the British Empire.
40:30
Like in the second was well in the Second World War over 2
40:36
million Indian soldiers fought for the British and in the First
40:41
World War it was close to 1,000,000.
40:43
So yeah, there would have been Sikh soldiers around in the
40:47
First World War, and these guys fought with distinction and most
40:52
of the empire soldiers fought with distinction and we fight
40:55
them. Britain would not have won the
40:56
First World War and we certainly wouldn't have won the Second
40:59
World War. John Darwin, he wrote a great
41:02
book on it and he argued that it wasn't the American military
41:07
might, that American military and assets and that won the war,
41:14
that won the war. It was the British Empire and
41:17
the resources that the British. All right, well, that's a debate
41:21
for another episode. I believe it was anything else.
41:25
Todd, Johnny, before we go out, No, no, absolutely not, unless
41:29
you have anything. Well, I have a great quote
41:31
regarding the First World War. Maybe we should save it for the
41:35
First World War episodes as opposed to the causes of the
41:39
First World War. But no, we'll just go with it.
41:41
And this quote is from one of the the best writers of all
41:46
time. He said World War One was the
41:49
most colossal, murderous, mismanaged virtually that has
41:53
ever taken place on Earth. Any writer who said otherwise
41:56
lied. So the writers either wrote
41:58
propaganda they shot up or fought.
42:02
And who was that? I don't know who that was?
42:05
Ernest Hemingway. Was it Hemingway?
42:07
Well, who else would it have been?
42:08
That is a fantastic quote. Well, Senator's Hemingway, of
42:11
course. It's a fantastic quote.
42:12
Well, who who was it? Who wrote or quite on the
42:14
Western Front? That's a German brick, isn't it?
42:17
Yeah, I don't know. Oh, he he fought in the First
42:21
World War, but he was on the losing side, so we don't want to
42:23
hear what he had to say. Well, I mean, I, I done like the
42:27
book. I thought it was a bit too, too
42:28
on the nose. But I mean, the the film, there
42:32
was a World War. I mean, of course it's going to
42:34
be on the noses. The guys in the fucking
42:36
trenches. Yeah.
42:36
But there wasn't much like subtle theatre or nuance, I
42:40
felt. But he was in the battle.
42:42
He was just getting shorter. As you were sitting here in my
42:44
kitchen. Yeah.
42:45
As I get my water and eating my food.
42:47
Yes, I know, I know. But I just find that a lot
42:51
nuance. But I love the Netflix movie
42:56
recently. Was it 2021?
42:59
Yeah. And the original movie was
43:00
great, too. The original movie's great as
43:02
well. Although the original movie's
43:04
like American. So again, shall we finish this
43:08
up, Johnny? Yes.
43:09
I think we've. We've spoke enough about the
43:12
First World War for an hour. Anyway.
43:14
Yeah, we've exhausted every ounce of our listeners patience
43:20
with this one. No, I'm Kevin.
43:22
Kevin, I'm sure they enjoyed it. If you did enjoy it, there was a
43:25
five star review wherever you get your podcasts.
43:28
And yeah, we'll see you next time on the Tone History pod.
43:32
And next time we're I think we're going to we've got some
43:36
episodes on OJ Simpson for the listeners hopefully to enjoy
43:40
coming up. Yeah, I think, well, we will,
43:42
but we we may have a a mini sword in between just to break
43:47
it out a lot or it's tough to go from JFK getting his head blown
43:51
off the cause of the First World War to OJ Simpson being
43:57
railroaded by the LAPD. Yeah, Yeah, it's very tough.
44:01
So yeah, we'll wait until. Well, you'll see just just
44:05
followers and you come along on this journey with us.
44:10
Hopefully. Yeah.
44:11
And you can hear my my wife Virat players out and we have a
44:16
lot of questions about who this person is.
44:20
And yeah, that's my wife who introduces and the show and
44:25
plays us out. So as I show and as we said,
44:28
like any questions, anything you want to you want to challenge or
44:34
anything you think is wrong, send us an e-mail like comment,
44:39
but but keep it keep it nice. Like nothing, nothing abusive.
44:43
If you're abusive, we're not going to respond.
44:46
Yeah, of course not. It's history is to be debated,
44:49
but abuse is something that we're not going to engage with.
44:53
So absolutely not. But all right, let's go home,
44:57
everyone. Yeah.
44:57
Last at home. Thanks for listening.
44:59
Thanks for listening. See you next week.
45:01
Bye. Bye.
45:03
The Twin History Podcast is a Lost Cosmonauts production
45:07
produced by me Virag Ester Toute.
45:10
Additional producers are Dale McGoldrick, Johnny McCann and
45:15
Joe McCann. Written by Johnny McCann and Joe
45:18
McCann, original music and score by Kevin McCloud.
45:24
The podcast is available wherever you get your podcast.
45:28
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45:32
under the handle the Twin History Pod.
45:35
You can e-mail us at the Twin historypodcast@gmail.com.
45:42
Thanks for listening. Yeah.