Latest / The Morning Edition / Trump’s USA: Republican revenge and a Democratic Hail Mary

Transcript

Trump’s USA: Republican revenge and a Democratic Hail Mary · The Morning Edition

0:04
S1: In a wind that has sent shock waves through the
0:06
S1: Democratic Party. An unabashedly left wing epidemiologist has been chosen
0:11
S1: as the Democrat nominee to fight for its Senate seat
0:14
S1: in Michigan in November. Some see it as a desperate
0:18
S1: move at a time when the Republican Party is moving
0:21
S1: full steam ahead to prosecute its rivals like Doctor Anthony Fauci,
0:25
S1: Joe Biden's former Covid czar who was browbeaten just over
0:29
S1: a week ago in a heated Senate hearing.
0:32
S2: It is a total disgrace what you did to this country.
0:37
S3: You don't want to answer questions. It's because you did
0:41
S3: all kinds of terrible things. It's because during the pandemic,
0:43
S3: you got rich.
0:45
S2: Here I am, sitting in front of you six years
0:47
S2: later saying, who the f do you think you were
0:49
S2: for doing that?
0:51
S1: I'm Samantha Zellinger Maurice, and you're listening to The Morning
0:54
S1: Edition from The Age and the Sydney Morning Herald today.
0:59
S1: North America correspondent Michael Koziol on why Democrats are gambling
1:03
S1: their ability to gain power in November on an insurgent
1:07
S1: who has argued for the U.S. to cut military aid
1:10
S1: to Israel, and why Republicans are grilling Doctor Fauci on
1:14
S1: his decisions during the Covid pandemic. Now it's August the 10th. Michael,
1:24
S1: welcome back to the podcast.
1:25
S4: Oh, thanks for having me.
1:27
S1: Okay. Well, just hours before we are recording this news
1:30
S1: broke that I think it's fair to say, sent shock
1:32
S1: waves through the Democratic Party because this is that a
1:35
S1: left wing health administrator in Michigan, this is Abdul El-Sayed.
1:39
S1: He won the primary to go on and fight for
1:42
S1: a Senate seat in November. This is a swing state.
1:44
S1: But just tell us why this was such a shock
1:47
S1: for the Democrats and perhaps quite a gamble for them too.
1:50
S4: Yeah. I mean, look, the polls suggested that it was
1:53
S4: going to happen and in the end it was very close.
1:56
S4: But Abdul El-Sayed, the left wing progressive, first Muslim to
2:01
S4: be nominated for the Senate by the Democratic Party. Certainly
2:04
S4: the anti-establishment candidate, you know, not backed by the big money,
2:09
S4: not backed by the big names in the Democratic Party.
2:12
S4: He has been victorious.
2:15
S5: We begin tonight in Michigan, where a progressive who has
2:19
S5: never held elected office, defeated an establishment backed congresswoman in
2:23
S5: the Democratic primary for U.S. Senate.
2:25
S6: El-Sayed won the Democratic nomination, defeating moderate Haley Stevens in
2:29
S6: a closer than expected race that exposed divisions within the party.
2:33
S6: Outside groups poured more than $60 million into advertising, backing Stevens,
2:39
S6: making it one of the most expensive primaries in the country.
2:42
S4: We've all kind of been fascinated over the last year
2:45
S4: by the rise of Zoran Mamdani and other sort of
2:49
S4: left wing progressive candidates, really challenging the centrist Democrats. And
2:54
S4: this is an example of it succeeding outside of, you know,
2:59
S4: those big progressive cities like New York or San Francisco
3:03
S4: or other places. You know, as you say, this is Michigan.
3:05
S4: It's in the Rust Belt. It's in the Midwest. It's
3:08
S4: a swing state. It voted for Trump in 2024 and 2016. Now,
3:14
S4: this was a primary among just Democrats choosing between two
3:18
S4: Democrats or three Democrats technically. And, you know, look, they've
3:23
S4: gone for the left wing candidate. They've thumb their noses
3:26
S4: at the establishment and the elites in Washington and the
3:28
S4: big money. And now the question is, well, can that
3:32
S4: person win the general election in a state like Michigan?
3:36
S4: And that's why some Democrats, not all, but quite a few,
3:40
S4: are very worried thinking that, well, you know, we've gone
3:43
S4: for the really left wing guy, but this is a
3:46
S4: moderate state. And that means the Republicans are more likely
3:49
S4: to carry the seat in November. And it's a crucial seat.
3:52
S4: It's held by a Democrat who is retiring. And if
3:56
S4: the Democrats are going to have any hope of taking
3:58
S4: control of the Senate next year, then they have to win.
4:02
S4: They have to hold this seat and win several more.
4:05
S4: So it's fairly high stakes.
4:07
S7: And I hope you can sort.
4:08
S1: Of help us figure out what to read into this
4:10
S1: in terms of what the Democrats are thinking, like looking
4:12
S1: at this, I'm thinking, okay, is this an act of
4:14
S1: desperation on behalf of Democrats to hopefully rebound from, I guess,
4:18
S1: Trump's Make America healthy again agenda, you know, is vaccine
4:23
S1: skepticism and so forth. And go the other way because
4:26
S1: we know that Al Sayed he stands for universal health care,
4:31
S1: lower drug costs, government sponsored health insurance, and more broadly,
4:36
S1: you know, imposing higher tax on the wealthy. Like that's
4:38
S1: the kind of platform he is likely to have. I mean,
4:42
S1: I read one analyst in The New Yorker, this is
4:44
S1: John Alsop, and he was saying that one conclusion you
4:46
S1: could draw from side's win in this primary against Haley Stevens, who's,
4:52
S1: like you say, heavily backed by the Democrat Party establishment
4:55
S1: was like, wow, the Democratic establishment might not be as
4:58
S1: cooked as we thought. That's one thing you could read
5:00
S1: into it. This particular analyst was saying, is that how
5:03
S1: you read the win, or do you sort of take
5:05
S1: something else out of this?
5:07
S4: Well, I think it's a heavy defeat for the establishment.
5:11
S4: It was the most expensive Democratic Senate primary, the most
5:14
S4: expensive Democratic, you know, Non-presidential primary ever. More than half
5:20
S4: of that money came from AIPAC, the American Israel Public
5:23
S4: Affairs Committee. Massively controversial issue, especially among Democrats, where, you know,
5:31
S4: AIPAC money from the Israel lobby is basically toxic in
5:35
S4: that voter base. And so, yeah, look, that was unquestionably
5:39
S4: an issue. The health care issue was big. It was
5:42
S4: part of his campaign slogan. When I met him last
5:45
S4: week up in Michigan, sort of asked him, you know, well, look,
5:49
S4: Medicare for all sounds good to an Australian, but people
5:52
S4: in a purple state of America ready for that sort
5:55
S4: of thing. Because, you know, I mean, socialism is still
5:58
S4: a bit of a dirty word over here. And we've
6:00
S4: seen people like Donald Trump and the Republicans trying to
6:03
S4: capitalize on that and saying, you know, socialists, communists are
6:06
S4: taking over the Democrats. People still don't really like the concept.
6:10
S4: So I asked him, you know, how's that going to
6:12
S4: go down? And he said, well, actually, you know, look,
6:14
S4: people have been taught not to like it, but when
6:18
S4: you are not to like the word, but when you
6:21
S4: actually ask them and interrogate them, they really do like
6:24
S4: it because the system, you know, currently is not working.
6:27
S4: And we know that Americans pay more for healthcare and
6:30
S4: get worse results than Australia. And in fact, it was
6:33
S4: something like 60% of all healthcare in America is delivered
6:36
S4: through the public system anyway. So his point was, you know,
6:40
S4: are they ready for it? It's happening already. We just
6:42
S4: need to do it a lot better. So look, we'll
6:44
S4: see how he goes. I think the problem is that
6:47
S4: as the Republicans are very much trying to do right now,
6:50
S4: they're going to tie him. And he's not a democratic socialist.
6:54
S4: He's not a member of the DSA, but he's pretty
6:56
S4: left wing, and they're going to tie him to some
6:59
S4: of the other actual DSA members who are getting nominated
7:03
S4: around the country, who do have some pretty out there ideas.
7:07
S4: I mean, you know, there's a woman who's running for
7:09
S4: governor of Michigan who, you know, was hauled over the
7:12
S4: coals for saying a few years ago that Thanksgiving should
7:15
S4: be canceled. Oh, man. When she was asked on CNN
7:19
S4: yesterday whether she stood by that, she kind of gave
7:22
S4: a confusing answer about being a chef. And, you know,
7:25
S4: it's it's a painful time for a lot of people.
7:28
S8: You said Americans should cancel Thanksgiving should have done this
7:31
S8: in 1621. The post has been deleted. Republicans have been
7:35
S8: highlighting it. Do you still believe that Thanksgiving should be canceled?
7:39
S9: I'm a chef, and one of the first meals that
7:42
S9: I made that was, um, for the community when I
7:46
S9: was 16 was a Thanksgiving meal. Now, I always think
7:51
S9: my hospitality background in owning a restaurant for seven, eight years,
7:55
S9: that bringing folks around the table to share conversation and
7:58
S9: build community is always a good thing. But Thanksgiving is
8:03
S9: also a time that's incredibly painful for many people in
8:06
S9: our communities. And so I think there I wanted to
8:09
S9: make sure that people understood that there are multiple views,
8:12
S9: but views can evolve.
8:14
S4: I think everyone understands you should just say, no, I
8:18
S4: like Thanksgiving like everyone else. So they're going to try
8:21
S4: and tie all these people together and say, look at
8:24
S4: all these crazy radical leftists who have taken over the
8:27
S4: Democratic Party. You have to vote Republican. And that's going
8:30
S4: to be, you know, at least one of the big
8:32
S4: dynamics in the midterm elections.
8:35
S7: Which I guess brings us.
8:36
S1: To the latest backdrop. And this is the absolutely vicious
8:40
S1: three hour long Senate hearing that just took place over
8:42
S1: a week ago, in which Doctor Anthony Fauci was being grilled.
8:46
S1: So just briefly remind us who Doctor Fauci is and
8:50
S1: why he's been grilled, why he's back in the spotlight.
8:53
S4: So, Anthony Fauci, you know, I guess you call him
8:55
S4: the Covid czar of the US. He served as 38
8:59
S4: years as director of the National Institute of Allergy and
9:02
S4: Infectious Diseases, part of the National Institutes of Health. Basically,
9:06
S4: the guy responsible for public health and a senior adviser
9:09
S4: to the president. He served under, obviously, you know, Donald Trump,
9:14
S4: who won in 2016 and then served under Biden. And
9:17
S4: so he retired in 2022, obviously, at the end of
9:22
S4: a long career. He's 85 years old now. But, yes,
9:26
S4: he was hauled back before Congress last week, basically to
9:30
S4: face new questions. But in many ways, old questions about
9:35
S4: primarily the origins of Covid 19 and whether American funded
9:40
S4: research in Wuhan. We all know the Wuhan labs were
9:44
S4: responsible basically for unleashing Covid on the world.
9:48
S7: Okay, so what.
9:49
S1: New information, if anything, has come out of this grilling?
9:52
S4: Well, look, the main thing that he was there for.
9:54
S4: So this hearing was convened by Rand Paul. He's a
9:57
S4: Republican senator, long time nemesis of Doctor Fauci, you know,
10:01
S4: was one of the strongest critics of him during Covid
10:05
S4: and has sort of kept it up afterwards. Now, basically,
10:08
S4: his main line of questioning goes to the source of Covid.
10:13
S4: So the National Institutes of Health gives out grants to,
10:16
S4: you know, various groups, researchers. One of them is a
10:20
S4: nonprofit based in New York called the EcoHealth Alliance, which
10:24
S4: in turn used some of that funding for this viral
10:28
S4: research in Wuhan. This is called gain of function research,
10:32
S4: where you basically enhance the virus in a lab study,
10:36
S4: the potential real world impacts of that virus being enhanced. And,
10:41
S4: you know, it can be quite risky and it's usually
10:43
S4: highly regulated. But obviously the concern is that this happening
10:46
S4: in Wuhan in a, you know, authoritarian country like China
10:50
S4: not being properly regulated or being, you know, regulated in
10:54
S4: ways that we would not approve of. So that's fair enough.
10:57
S4: But Doctor Fauci has been asked these questions before. I mean,
11:01
S4: there have been many hearings in Congress, including, you know,
11:05
S4: Rand Paul on exactly these issues hearings as recently as
11:09
S4: 2024 in the House of Representatives.
11:12
S7: Is he suggesting.
11:13
S1: That Doctor Fauci funded research that gave rise to the pandemic?
11:16
S1: Is that sort of what he is suggesting? Or is
11:19
S1: he suggesting that Doctor Fauci was covering up private suspicions
11:22
S1: that the virus leaked from a lab?
11:24
S4: Yeah, I mean, I think he's very much a proponent
11:27
S4: of the lab leak theory. And, you know, essentially that, yes,
11:32
S4: the NIH was irresponsibly and I guess indirectly, but irresponsibly nonetheless,
11:36
S4: funding this dangerous research in Wuhan in a place where
11:40
S4: they shouldn't have been doing that.
11:46
S1: After the break.
11:47
S4: Todd Blanche, Donald Trump's former personal lawyer, is now looking
11:53
S4: like he will likely be confirmed as the attorney general now.
11:58
S4: That then puts him in charge of all these decisions
12:01
S4: about trying to prosecute Donald Trump's political enemies and other
12:05
S4: people that the administration doesn't like.
12:15
S1: So is there any evidence to suggest that either a doctor, Fauci,
12:19
S1: was covering up private suspicions that the virus leaked from
12:22
S1: the lab, or is there anything to suggest that's true?
12:25
S1: Because the Republicans made public some of Fauci's diaries, the
12:29
S1: ones that he kept while he was in government, and
12:32
S1: some of that made its way into the Senate hearing. Right.
12:35
S4: So, I mean, look, what what they got excited about was,
12:38
S4: you know, there were some lines in the diary. The
12:42
S4: Fauci diaries had been made public by the Republicans, where
12:47
S4: Anthony Fauci said very early on in the pandemic, I mean,
12:50
S4: we're talking January 2020, before things had really gotten serious.
12:55
S4: He said, now we know that the market in Wuhan
12:58
S4: was not the source, it was the amplifier, and that
13:02
S4: somewhere the virus had jumped from animals to humans. The
13:05
S4: battle was basically between did it start in the market?
13:07
S4: Did it start in the lab? So people like Rand
13:10
S4: Paul have seized on this as saying, look, Anthony Fauci
13:13
S4: knew all along that it wasn't the market, it was
13:16
S4: the laboratory. Now, you know, Fauci has made clear many
13:20
S4: times publicly since then that, you know, this is early
13:24
S4: days in the pandemic, very, very early days. We didn't
13:26
S4: really know anything then. And it's still, you know, it's
13:29
S4: still being debated whether it's more likely that this virus
13:32
S4: emerged from the laboratory or from the market. So I
13:36
S4: think to seize on that one line in a diary
13:39
S4: very early on in the pandemic is probably unfair.
13:43
S1: And some of the senators who were grilling Doctor Fauci
13:46
S1: were at times really angry. I mean, just vicious in
13:50
S1: some cases. But was there one particular instance that you
13:53
S1: were surprised by?
13:55
S4: Oh, look, I mean, probably the most memorable moment was
13:57
S4: when Fauci's lawyer got thrown out.
14:04
S10: You are being disruptive. Would you behave this way in
14:07
S10: a courtroom? No, because the judge would put you in jail.
14:10
S10: I can't do that today, but I can have you
14:12
S10: escorted from the premises. So I would say, sir, sit
14:15
S10: quietly and don't say another word. Look, this is the
14:17
S10: way Anthony Fauci wants to be remembered for a lawyer
14:20
S10: not listening to the rules. That's the way you want
14:23
S10: to be remembered. And that's what you're going to do.
14:25
S10: You are not recognized, sir. Uh, security, please remove him
14:30
S10: from the room.
14:33
S4: I think that was the moment where you could tell that,
14:36
S4: you know, part of the purpose of all this was
14:39
S4: a bit of theater because the lawyer was trying to
14:42
S4: say something from the bench. And Rand Paul was very
14:46
S4: emphatic in not letting him say anything, that this was
14:49
S4: a hearing for Doctor Fauci to answer questions, not the lawyer.
14:53
S4: And so had him theatrically thrown out of the room
14:56
S4: by Senate security. So that was enjoyable. And I think
15:00
S4: probably yes, spoke to the broader point, which is that
15:03
S4: there was a bit of a show trial element of
15:05
S4: this running through the whole thing.
15:08
S11: On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer,
15:11
S11: based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.
15:14
S10: Because you refused to answer, citing a privilege that is
15:17
S10: unsupported because of your pardon and after being denied to
15:21
S10: do so, this committee has scheduled a vote next week
15:23
S10: on a resolution certifying your contempt.
15:28
S1: Well, this is something I really want to ask you about.
15:30
S1: You know, what can we make of these attacks, this
15:32
S1: this show trial? Like, is this just desperation by Trump's
15:35
S1: loyalists to get voters to look away from Trump's Absolutely
15:39
S1: abysmal ratings in the polls. Is this an attempt to
15:42
S1: steer the nation firmly away from any democratic health agenda
15:46
S1: towards a Maha agenda, like what's going on here?
15:50
S4: Well, I mean, look, Rand Paul has consistently said he
15:53
S4: wants Anthony Fauci thrown in prison. And, you know, Donald
15:58
S4: Trump has shown a propensity to prosecute his political enemies. Now,
16:03
S4: Anthony Fauci has not you know, he doesn't like Anthony Fauci.
16:06
S4: But Fauci's not figured prominently among those people because he's
16:10
S4: not seen as a sort of political enemy of the president,
16:14
S4: more a sort of thorn in his side during Covid.
16:16
S4: So we'll see what happens there.
16:19
S1: Right. Okay. And so what are the risks that Anthony
16:21
S1: Fauci could actually end up in jail?
16:24
S4: So what's happened now is that the Senate committee that
16:27
S4: Rand Paul chairs has voted to hold Anthony Fauci in contempt.
16:32
S4: It was a vote along party lines. Democrats dissented, but
16:35
S4: Republicans control the committee. So they've made that finding. And
16:39
S4: ordinarily it would go to a vote in the full Senate.
16:42
S4: And then if the full Senate votes to hold him
16:44
S4: in contempt, it would be referred to the Department of Justice. Now,
16:47
S4: there's basically no chance of that getting up in the Senate,
16:50
S4: because the Democrats are, by and large against it. And
16:53
S4: there's no way the Republicans would get 60 votes that
16:55
S4: they need to get around the Senate filibuster. So what
16:59
S4: Rand Paul has said he's going to do instead is
17:01
S4: basically just deliver this contempt finding from his committee to
17:06
S4: the Department of Justice and say, here, my committee has
17:08
S4: found him in contempt. You should, you know, press charges, essentially. Now,
17:12
S4: it doesn't bind the Department of Justice to do that.
17:15
S4: But it's an interesting political moment for the Department of Justice, because,
17:19
S4: number one, it's about to be run by Todd Blanch,
17:22
S4: Donald Trump's former personal lawyer who's currently the acting attorney
17:26
S4: general and the prosecutor in Washington, D.C., where this case
17:31
S4: would take place is Jeanine Pirro, a Trump appointee, former
17:36
S4: Fox News host and someone who is in hot water
17:39
S4: with Donald Trump at the moment over this saga with
17:42
S4: the Lincoln Memorial Reflecting Pool. Last week, she had to
17:45
S4: go into court and basically drop the case against this
17:49
S4: former Olympian, David Hearn, who had been charged with vandalizing
17:53
S4: the reflecting pool. Donald Trump, you know, said a million
17:56
S4: times that it was destroyed by vandals. Jeanine Pirro had
18:00
S4: to front up to court and say, actually, that was
18:02
S4: not true. It was a shoddy construction job all along.
18:05
S4: Donald Trump was very upset about this. He publicly contradicted her.
18:09
S4: And so if you're Jeanine Pirro and, you know, suddenly
18:13
S4: the Department of Justice has this, uh, referral on its
18:17
S4: desk from Rand Paul's committee. Maybe you're saying, yeah, you know,
18:21
S4: we should try and get an indictment against this guy.
18:24
S4: So it's very interesting. It seems like it's still got
18:28
S4: a way to run. So Todd Blanche, Donald Trump's former
18:32
S4: personal lawyer, is now looking like he will likely be
18:37
S4: confirmed as the attorney general. So he's been acting in
18:42
S4: that role for several months now, but he may be
18:44
S4: confirmed in the role now. That then puts him in
18:47
S4: charge of all these decisions about trying to prosecute Donald
18:51
S4: Trump's political enemies and other people that the administration doesn't like.
18:56
S4: And we know that Trump is still keen to indict,
19:01
S4: to see prosecutions through against these people. It was one
19:04
S4: of the main reasons he got rid of Pam Bondi,
19:07
S4: the Pam Bondi, I should say, as the Americans do,
19:10
S4: because she wasn't getting this done. And so I think
19:14
S4: with Blanche in charge, we may very well see a
19:18
S4: more aggressive approach to trying to get these people in
19:21
S4: front of a judge. You know, there it's happening with
19:23
S4: other people. The James Comey prosecution for, you know, posting
19:28
S4: the photo of the seashells that said 8647 on the
19:33
S4: beach that is, you know, proceeding.
19:35
S1: This is just just to remind listeners, former head of
19:37
S1: the FBI.
19:38
S4: That's right. You know, a big Trump enemy thanks to
19:41
S4: the whole Russiagate scandal. Uh, and so, yeah, look, I
19:45
S4: think Donald Trump may very well be relatively powerless after January,
19:49
S4: when the new House of Representatives and Senate takes hold.
19:53
S4: But one thing he can still do in the meantime
19:56
S4: is make the most of the department of his control
19:58
S4: of the Department of Justice by going after these people
20:01
S4: that he thinks has done him wrong. And if Todd
20:04
S4: Blanche is there, you know, I think we should expect
20:07
S4: to see that happen and perhaps be turbo charged. I mean, Blanche, uh,
20:12
S4: it was a very memorable moment during a hearing the
20:15
S4: other day when he was asked whether he was a
20:18
S4: friend of the president's, and Todd Blanche said, no, I'm
20:22
S4: his lawyer. And then he very quickly corrected himself, I
20:25
S4: was his lawyer. And that clip went viral here in
20:28
S4: the US. And it's one of the things that gave
20:31
S4: some Republicans, you know, pause for thought about whether we
20:35
S4: should be confirming this guy because of his very, very
20:38
S4: close and, you know, long relationship as the president's lawyer, who,
20:42
S4: you know, is now going to be in charge of
20:44
S4: the Justice Department.
20:51
S1: Well, thank you so much for your time.
20:54
S4: Thanks, Samantha. Not a problem at all. See you next time.
21:10
S1: Today's episode was produced by Josh towers. Our executive producer
21:15
S1: is Tammy Mills, and our podcasts are overseen by Lisa
21:18
S1: Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. If you like our show, follow
21:22
S1: the Morning Edition and leave a review for us on
21:24
S1: Apple or Spotify. Thanks for listening.