Latest / Reflect Reclaim & Liberate - with Sallyanne Hartnell / Creating A Happy Divorce - With Ben Heldfond & Nikki DeBartolo

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Creating A Happy Divorce - With Ben Heldfond & Nikki DeBartolo · Reflect Reclaim & Liberate - with Sallyanne Hartnell

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to another episode of Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: And today I'm really excited to welcome Benjamin Heldfond and Nikki DeBartelow from Our Happy Divorce.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: Ben and Nikki are empowering and inspiring people to think differently about divorce, co-parenting, step parenting, and what it means to put kids first.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: So welcome Ben and Nikki.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's great to have you.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for having us.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having us.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think uh Nikki's last name has ever sounded so well.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_02: It did.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_02: That sounded great.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: It sounded great with the just to kick off, can you please uh share a little bit about yourselves, your story, and your happy divorce?
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: I don't mind who wants to go first.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: You guys can fight that out and you can show us how collaboration and cooperation really works.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: And not strangle each other.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: Go ahead.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we met in San Francisco.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_02: I dragged him to Tampa to move here.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: Then I divorced um, and then we managed to maybe not hate each other.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: You forgot about having an example.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, we had a child.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: We had a wonderful child.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: There you go.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, we did.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that was a that was a big step, big moment in that.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: And we we managed to get a divorce and not entirely hate each other.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I think the the the one thing about uh our relationship is uh we started off as friends.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we started off loving each other and we had a good time together, and and we sort of looking back on it, it's easier uh uh thanks than going through it.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: But looking back on it, uh we you know, we were at that age in our mid-20s, and and I think we sort of got the in love and loving each other sort of mixed up.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um and you know how it was like when we got married, everyone was like, So when are you when are you getting married?
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's time for you guys to get married.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, you're at that age, you should have get married, you should have babies.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean, we kind of were like, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then I moved like Nikki said, we I moved across the country, and and at that point I thought it was, you know, if I was gonna move, it was time for a bigger commitment.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: And uh we got married.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: And uh uh, you know, like Nikki said, we uh we had a beautiful son together.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then it just sort of fell apart.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and we I think we were both in love with the person that we wanted the other person to be, instead of being in love with the person uh that they were or we were at at that time.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: And and when we decided to get divorced, I think it had all the mixings and the ingredients and the uh um setup for a very high conflict divorce.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I don't know any marriage that ends, you know, with roses and sunshine, and and uh you know, somehow we we we got it right.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um there are there are a few, I think, that end with roses and sunshine, but it's a rare, rare occurrence.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: I agree.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so what were the elements?
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: You said you were, you know, prime almost primed the two of you for a high conflict divorce.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think made the shift?
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: What made the difference?
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: I I think um one of the most important things for the two of us was giving each other space.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_02: And that space isn't really in my wheelhouse.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: Like when I'm upset, I hear you, sister.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_02: I hear my wheelhouse is to be in someone's face, not to give someone space.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that we both what are you laughing at?
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: That was poetic.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think that for us we both realized that we wouldn't want to have wanted to be married to each other, like uh we wouldn't have wanted to be married to the person that we figured out that we were.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I think going to therapy was the number one thing that helped us both going to therapy separately to try to figure out our own crap and try to, you know, get our own selves on a better path, not not together and not to be together, but to be with ourselves.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and for me, um, you know, it was sort of a story of of what to do and what not to do.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: And and uh when I left or we decided to leave, I was an angry, bitter, resentful man and very dramatic.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: And and uh my first call was to a lawyer.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um and mistake number one, and if you're listening and you're going through a divorce, I just urge you uh don't call a lawyer first.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and uh what turned it around for me is I got this paper back from uh or this uh war and peace memo from my lawyer about an attack plan.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: Because I went with to him wanting an attack plan, and he gave it to me.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: And uh um what turned it around for me was opening it up, I think like two weeks after he gave it to me and start reading it.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I I was able to tap into my experience as a kid, and I came from a very high conflict divorce.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and for whatever reason, first couple pages into this 35-page memo, um I got uh, you know, I was honest with myself for the first time.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, I know where this, the rest of this ends, I know where this path ends because I lived it.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, I had a a life experience, a human experience with it.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I put it away, and and the next phone call that I made was what I urge people to do uh was to uh you know call a therapist.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, the lawyer uh divorce has a business side of it and uh emotional side of it.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: And the business side of it will get screwed up 10 times out of 10 if people bring the emotional stuff into that business side of it.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so Nikki and I were able to clean up the emotional side a little bit, um, you know, like Nikki said, and concentrate and focus on our side of the street and sort of realize that it takes two to make a relationship and it takes two to ruin a relationship.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so that made the business side of it a little bit easier.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it didn't make it simple, but just made it a little bit easier.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: Which I guess is, you know, that's exactly why I do what I do.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: I help clients, my clients, my people take care of the emotional side that so that the business side tends to, I'm not gonna say take care of itself.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's not true.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: And you guys know that that's not true, that's not the truth, but it does simplify it.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: If you can tone your own, if you can heal your own stuff, as you said, Ben, like work out what's on your side of the street and take care of that, then you can make in the middle of the road and step forward together.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: And and instead of making decisions on the business side of it to hurt Nikki, right?
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: And that's I think what happens if I had brought those emotions, because that's where I was when I called that lawyer.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't, it was all her fault.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: If only she had done this, if only I was gonna show her.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's that's an emotional business decision, right?
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: That is a, you know, I'm gonna take the espresso machine because it means so much to Nikki, right?
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: When and we're gonna spend hours in mediation or litigation over an espresso machine for no other purpose than it means a lot to Nikki.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that's a little bit hyperbole, but you know, uh laced with a little bit of hyperbole.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, it's that's what happens.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's what happens when you have the emotional side.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: So tone that emotion down and and then focus on the business side.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love it.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess that kind of leads me to the next question.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: What other elements do you think make?
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's one element, but what other elements do you think make a happy divorce possible?
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm I guess I'm asking not just about the process of divorce, but the aftermath as well.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you've got children like you have, like I have with my ex-partner, then you're tied together.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: So for life, I I believe.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: So what makes a happy divorce possible?
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think just one quick thing in the in the beginning of that that made it possible, that set it up, was also, you know, the therapy we talked about, but also was a little bit of uh forgiveness, which included self-forgiveness and then forgiveness, you know, to Nikki and a little bit of compassion, right?
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, that uh um part of it um of truly forgiving the past and truly forgiving.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think Nikki, you know, you've talked about being a woman and having to forgive yourself, right?
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and and you know, for being a you know, I was scared to death to have to be a single mom at such a young age.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean, yes, I I had a family around and people around, but still, it's still it it was like almost damaging to myself that I felt like I was a failure.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean, it took a lot for me to understand that you know what, like I can, you know, I can do this.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_02: I can do this as a single mom.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: I, you know, I it's it, I don't know what it was, but you know deeming myself a failure for the ending of a relationship was more like a failure as a mother to me.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I felt like.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: So I, you know, it took a lot for me to have to realize that that wasn't the case.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I could be just as good of a mom, if not a better mom on my own.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: Not that I would tell anybody to go get a divorce to be a better mom of their own, but you know, but you have to do things that you aren't that you wouldn't normally be doing because you don't have a spouse.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_02: So you kind of have to take on both roles when you're alone.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: And what, you know, one of the things that's just really quick that we do were able to do when we talk about the forgiveness, or or you know, when I got done with this therapy, and I'm also uh a member of the 12-step program, and and part of that was you know, first of all, seeing what uh where I went wrong and what I did and taking an honest look at that, but then make amends for it, you know.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so I called Nikki to um coffee.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, I said I was sorry.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: And uh it wasn't for any, you know, I'm a bigger person.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't for any other reason than just you know to to acknowledge my side of the street was really messy, and and I'm sorry, despite what she had done, you know, or that I perceived that she had done, and you know, just got honest with her.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: And and we joke, it was and she then in turn apologized to me, which we joke, and you know, there's a little bit of reality and laughter, but it's the first and only time I think we really apologize to each other and and authentically apologized to each other and then accepted each other's apology.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: And from there, that was the building blocks, or that was the foundation um of what you know, we called our happy divorce.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I think too, when you know you asked about you know what other steps we took, I think that our number one thing, we looked at each other and said, every single solitary decision we make is what's best for Asher, who is our son.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_02: And it wasn't about me.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't about whether I liked that, or wasn't it wasn't about whether it was, you know, beneficial for me or beneficial for Ben.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's it we really and truly, it was all what's best for him.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_02: And that included, you know, the way we made schedules and custody schedules and arrangements, and you know, the way we went to events for him or had birthday parties together for him, even when we didn't want to be around each other.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_02: And everything had to do with what would make that child smile.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: And and and putting him first, you know, meant uh, you know, one of the secrets, one of the secrets of our success is is you know, swallowing our ego, swallowing our pride, putting our big boy pants on, you know, and realizing that you know our our son had no choice uh in in this process.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: He didn't choose for me to ask Nikki out the first time, he didn't, you know, didn't choose for us to get married, have him, and he certainly didn't choose uh for us to get divorced.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, he shouldn't be uh uh faced with the consequences of those decisions.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I was able to, you know, uh that's where my experience helped so much, I think, through this process.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: And Nikki comes from family that no one's been divorced, you know, and I grew up in a high conflict, you know, with War of the Roses, you know, in the 80s, there was one way way way of doing divorce, and it was a terrible, awful environment uh to be to be raised in.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so being able to tap into that experience, I think helped us out a lot because I knew what it was like.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, and placing Asher, your child, front and center of all of your decisions is just so powerful, as is owning your own messy side of the street and and doing doing the work to heal and and and apologize for that.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: Ben, you touched on ego, and I'm really interested to know what part ego plays in a happy divorce and a happy blended family afterwards.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: What are your best tips, Nikki, Ben, for putting our ego aside?
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, here's our secret sauce.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, after years of therapy, after years of self-help books, um we faked it until we made it.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, that that includes Nikki touched on Asher school events, you know, and we wouldn't want to sit next to each other, but we sat next to each other and we put our smile on our face.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_02: And when we started bringing, you know, our now spouses around to each other.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, no one wants, no one wants that.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_02: No, I mean, you Ben always talks about the fact that he met my now, well, no, he knew the problem was we were both friends with my now husband.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_02: So when he started coming around in a different capacity, it was like, oh, really?
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I wanted but he knew we had to swallow his ego and say, hey, you know what?
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, let's just This guy's around, he's gonna, you know, and and a perfect example that is the first time that Nikki, you know, had called me and said we're uh she he was bringing Chad, her husband, uh, to one of Asher's baseball games.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I was the coach of the baseball game, so I knew, you know, all during the game, I'm looking over at the uh at in the stands, just knowing that this is gonna this is gonna go down, right?
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's gonna happen at the end of this game.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, an hour and a half later, after you know, me just beat myself up mentally, uh the game gets over.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: Asher runs over to Chad and Nikki.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I sort of saunter over there and slowly slowly and and and talking to myself, like this is this is gonna be your moment.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: You're either gonna shine or you're gonna crash and burn, right?
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: And and uh, you know, insides are just ripping each other apart.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like, here's this guy who I knew before, and he's dating Nikki and not only that, he's around my son.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: It just had all these recipes for you know for male, and I'm sure, you know, women too.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you know, the romance part of it.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like nothing speaks to ego, you know, for me more than or hearse my ego more than romance of finance.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so and what is divorce, and what is divorce, you know, encapsulate, right?
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and so this is this is the romance part of it.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I walked over there, and uh, you know, the first thing I did, you know, I had a smile on my face, and I went over, and even before I said I'd Nikki, I gave Chad a hug.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: And Asher was right there.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it was pretty, you know, I guarantee you, if we had video of it, it was a very awkward man hug, like, but we did it, right?
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like, all right, buddy, really quick, probably.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, but it was just also to diffuse it and let Asher know that it's okay.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, and I didn't want to do it, you know, and so that that's an example uh of just swallowing the ego.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like I could easily just got in my car or you know, had a sour pus look on my face, and and then over time it got a little bit easier and a little bit more natural.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I talked about faking it to admit it.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: That was faking.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, I didn't I didn't want to hug that guy, I didn't want to do anything, and then and eventually now I love hugging him, you know, and they last a little longer.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and just a beautiful message for you for Asher that about how to handle tricky emotional situations, and then it's okay, it's okay for him to like it's okay for him to love this guy, you know, it's okay for him to, you know, because Nikki and Chad at the time are serious, you know.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: So whether I liked it or whether I didn't like it, it didn't really matter.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I might as well make the you know the best of the situation.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: And it turned out to be, you know, when I take away all the ego and I take an honest look, he's a great guy.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: He loves my son, my son loves him.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, he makes Nikki happy, you know.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_02: There's an expression really hard to do, right?
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: Very hard to do, you know.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: The happy wife, happy life.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: There's even another expression, happy ex-wife, happier life.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, he checks all the boxes.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: But but if I'm wearing ego glasses, he chucks, he checks none of them.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: I can find every fault in him and why he's not good for Nikki and why he's not good for Ash.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: But again, placing Ash's well-being and making decisions of you know, placing Ash's well-being at the forefront and making decisions around what's best for him, it's best for him for his mom to be happy in a loving, caring, nurturing, supportive relationship.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's best for him to have other adults as well as his biological parents around him that are supporting and caring and loving him.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's win-win.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: It really is.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, in terms of co-parenting, blended families, apart from setting aside ego, what other crucial things do you think are what other things are crucial, I suppose, is the question, in terms of making that that whole environment, that blended extended family harmonious.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_02: Well I mean, I think I think one of the things is is we definitely, I mean, we don't always, we don't, we still don't.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we don't we don't always see eye to eye.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_02: We don't parent the same.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_02: We don't, you know, I mean, it's I mean, he's he's 18 now.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean, obviously, parenting is quite different with an 18-year-old than it is when he was growing up.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_02: But I mean, I think a a lot of it was we really needed to keep lines of communication open.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: And we would have, you know, now in the world of texting, we would have, you know, family text change where we would go over things and where he was going and what he was doing.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, if he's at his dad's house, I would have like, you know, if I felt there, you know, there was a right to know where he was going at night or, you know, who who we was hanging out with, and vice versa.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I think too, that I think I just think it's very important to keep lines of communication and keep things as similar as possible at both houses.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we may not parent the exact same, but you know, we've you've got to keep the rules the same.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_02: You've got to keep, you know, big tickets.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_02: Big ticket items have to be the same.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: Whether underlying family values about what is really important.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: So what is a big ticket item, if you can actually agree on that in the first place, whether you know, for some of us, the curfew isn't so important.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, if you can agree on the values underlying your big ticket items as family, as parents, I think that's important too.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the uh the other thing that we've done, you know, from a co-parenting, parenting standpoint, and I think it's important to point out the obvious that whether Nikki and I were together or not, we would still have different parenting styles.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, my wife and I, we have two little kids.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: We are co-parents to our little kids, and we're married, and we have different parenting styles.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: So, but it just becomes a little harder when it's your ex, right?
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: And and all that emotional, if you haven't cleaned up that emotional stuff, you're like, Oh, you want to like anything that they're telling.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: You want to agree on anything, and and and and also with the ego, like she's gonna tell me what time I can have my son, you know, you know, stay up until.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: But um, you know, one thing that we did that was not afforded to me as a child um was communication with our with our son and giving him um a place to speak, a place to speak and to be heard, and and for his experience and his truth to be told.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when I was divorced, when my parents were divorced, it was like, okay, there was the event, right?
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: We sat down at the kitchen table and mom and dad's moving out, mom's getting divorced.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: It done.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_03: That's it.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like there wasn't any room for uh, you know, an expression of hurt or feelings or what's going on with uh, you know, me and my brothers and sister, you know, and me being uh, you know, sort of uh the way I'm wired is I internalized that.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: And it, you know, it was 12, 13 years old, and I was like, ooh, this is bad, but I didn't have a place to express myself.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: This is bad.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: I don't feel good.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I internalized it, and and you know, the conclusion I came up with is that I was bad and it was my fault, you know, and and so all this thing, but but from the day one, we'd always given Asher uh, you know, room and space to express his truth.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: And and whether that was, you know, putting him in therapy, you know, putting him to go talk to somebody, um, whether that was I I can't, it's too long of days at mommy's house or it's too long of days at daddy's house.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: I miss the other parent.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: Fine.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_02: And we were like, okay, no longer will it be a week, no longer will it be five days.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: You tell us what feels okay with you.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, or I want to go back to mom's.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: I miss mom.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: And instead of, you know, oh, well, it's my day, she had 22 days, you know, or whatever it was, it was like, okay, great.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you know, and and look, I'm not a holier than now levitating over here in Florida.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it would just that hurt, you know, that hurt that to hear that from my my son and I heard it a couple of times, and Nikki did too.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: That's a painful, that's like, oh, you know, you don't like me, you want to go to your mom's, but that's not what it's not what it's about, you know.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: And again, that's ego coming up, isn't it?
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's all that pain, that's ego.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, okay, let's not make this about me, right?
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: And being able to identify it's what makes oh it's what.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: gonna make him happy and being able to identify that right being able to identify oh that's an ego that's not reality right they and and and you know another thing a perfect example of giving him space to express express himself was I think it was like four years ago so he was 14 him and I are on on on a fishing trip and uh we're on the boat and he link he he looks at me he goes dad you know this divorce is hard on out of nowhere right and ego my first reaction was you little SOB you have no idea what a hard divorce was right this is this is this is this is the with the the the quiet part that I don't get it but I didn't say that instead I was able to just take as good as it is with Nikki and I and as good as it had been at that point I think for 10 years it's still hard right just the logistics we live five houses down from each other but just logistics like yesterday he called me and he had forgotten his uh what do you call it his pencil pouch his pencil pouch you know and and just that or forgetting a book or forgetting shoes shoes shoes shoes shoes it's always the shoes in our house yeah right and and and so you know and just you know the material stuff's one thing but also if it were up to him his parents would be together right and and so instead of saying you know you little SOB you know I was able to you know thank him for expressing himself and thank him for opening up and saying I know it sucks you know and and so you know I think that's a big part of of how we've we've handled this this you know divorce with with him and always giving him space and you know to express himself and and and it's worked.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah yeah going on from that um I wanted to ask you and Ben you touched on it before meeting Nikki's new partner now husband if when there are kids in the picture and as the adult excuse my meowing cat out there if you can hear it sorry listeners oh good so back to the question sorry if there are kids in the picture and we're thinking dating repartnering what do you guys think are the red flags for a harmonious if you or deal breakers if you're looking to really establish that blended harmonious family what are the deal breakers great question well a funny story was that I uh told Ben I mean I knew you know I didn't keep the tabs on him but I I knew what he was sort of doing once we got the car she wasn't keeping the tabs on it the Lincoln black and Lincoln Continental that was one of the one day and I said hey just do me a favor and let's not introduce anybody to our son it's you know gonna be part of like the revolving door and he you know as most guys would think was like you know at first he was kind of like how dare you tell me what I can and I can't do but I think once he took a deep breath and realized I don't think I said that out loud.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: I think he could have mumbled it I mean I then he realized I was right she can hear your thoughts then she can I can I think she we've said it so many times and she thinks I said it out loud he was like you know what you're right I mean that and I think for me that would have been one of my number one deal breakers and and I think that we both had a we had a conversation before we started bringing anybody around and you know I think for you it was you know it was just Dasher.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean it was just Nadio coming around Asher and it was like you know it it's just I didn't want him growing up seeing you know us just dating people and just thinking okay like yeah what kind of story does that tell about relationships right and and so uh Nikki'd asked me that and yes I don't know if I said out loud or I thought it like well but basically who the hell is she to tell me who I can and bring can't bring around my kid right and then it was she's right and that's the difference again between ego and what's best for Asher.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so Nadia my wife uh and I dated for a year um before I introduced uh her and to Asher uh and and you know I gave Nikki the courtesy uh is that the right word you know the respect the respect you let me know and I kept her you know some people say well it's not of our business but it was her business this is her son and I so I explained that you know how they were gonna meet and when they were gonna meet um and and you know I I I truly believe we say this and and it would however long we've been doing this we haven't really found a good way to say it so it just is what it is but Chad and Nadia would not be in our lives today um if they didn't buy into what we were doing.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you know if we're gonna talk about what's best for our kid uh and that's sort of our secret sauce if you will that included who we were going to bring into our lives and if if if you said red flags if if I sensed any sort of red flag or you know that Nikki or Nadia was going to be uh a subtraction from this instead of an addition she she I don't think she would be in my life.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean I I know she wouldn't and and the same with Chad and that's why this blended family works so well you know it because when Nikki and I were doing it it was a bicycle you know we were just two wheels and it it was a little awkward learning to ride a bike but once we rode it you know it became a little easier and then you had and then you had four wheels two more and it's just like the bicycle that all sort of has to those these be can you hear us?
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah gotcha oh yeah so you know it all has to work together and they've been great and and talk about ego and talk about swallowing the ego they have to do the exact same thing.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so when we wrote the book uh we ended up adding we ended up adding chapters chapters in it because they were such a big part of it.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: Okay on a really practical level and Nikki oh you might have touched on it but how did you introduce your now partners to Asher well because I I get asked this all the time how how what's the best way?
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: How should we do it?
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd be really interested for you to share that with the listeners.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_02: This is probably the best part of our story and and Nikki's going to tell it because oh yeah so I'll but my side of the story was I was lucky enough to know him and Asher knew him before we got married.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah I wasn't so it made the introduction of him just being over the house and spending more time with me and then in turn spending time with Asher a so much easier than it would have for somebody else because he just saw him before it's like you know up with like a playfriend like someone that he would you know have fun with and play like play around with so I think that was what that made my side of it so much easier.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_02: But for Ben, it's a funny story is I had known that Nadia had met Asher and every night when Asher was at Ben's house I would make a point to call say goodnight to him so I could just you know just say goodnight make me feel a little better about rather not being home.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_02: And so one night I call and I'm talking to him and he says to me hey mom I said yes and he said do you know Nadia and I said I've never met Nadia but I mommy knows mommy knows not knows who Nadia is but she's never met Nadia he's probably four and a half five maybe four and a half probably and he said here talk to her and he hands the phone to her and I'm right there and I just I mean my wife is dark skin and complexion but she turned white as Casper the I mean in my case and I was like oh my so it was like the most awkward reading but it was his way of saying you know what it's time like here's a girl that's hanging out with me and dad and I've never seen you around so like it's time for you to know her.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah and I think the one thing you know we didn't I think I don't know if everybody does this I'll just speak from our experience but we never gave Asher enough credit how smart he was of how smart and aware and present he was to what was going on.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: And that was including you know me uh in that sort of purgatory of separation or you know before we make the decision of me sleeping in the hotel and then coming in the morning and pretending like I you know was there and he knew that I didn't sleep there because he asked Nikki like where did daddy sleep last night because my side of the bed wasn't made up right smart and uh I think part of the question was about how we introduced Asher to Nadia you know Nikki said it was a little easier um but but the first time we did you know Nadia and I plotted and planned that we were going to bump into each other at the mall.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: And we bumped into each other at the mall and then we went and you know sat there at the little play area.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: And then the next uh I think time was we bumped into each other at a restaurant and uh you know sat down.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: And you know I think Azher tells a story that he he he knew something was because all of a sudden we're hanging out every night, you know, or whatever.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: But you know the uh um it's a it's a tough one.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean it's all I I think the only thing that we can say from our experience that we did was give it time right and and and give it space to to sort of see where it goes and and not confuse children more.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: And you know Nikki didn't really have to do that as much because you know Asher already knew Chad and um but with me it sort of everything was slow.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know I think as much as I wanted Nick uh Asher to meet Nadia and I'm sure as much as Nadia wanted to meet uh um Asher, the the the time was good.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah and and I think too often the time that the adults think is long and slow for the children is not long and slow.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: And and I'm speaking from my own personal experience of introducing my now partner to my kids when they were I think seven and five and they they recall that now at 19 and 17 it was fast.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: It was too fast.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like I don't it was really and then I had to really actually for them for them it was really fast even though at the time I thought we were going really slowly and steadily but for them they weren't ready for that speed.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: So being really intuitive with your kids about what they're ready for and their timeline as opposed to your own.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: No it's interesting it's quite different experiences but but you know it sounds like you've given your kids the same space to express their truth and and and also take in their truth and not say no I waited X amount of time it was plenty of time.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: But you know to them obviously they're saying that because they had a different experience and you know one of the things at least from a uh a guy's perspective um as hard as it was to not have you know a woman around if you will like Nikki who you know took care of everything and you know make sure the schedule you know ran on time and everybody was taken care of and Asher had diapers and you know milk and all of a sudden being a single guy and not I think I still did that when I left you might have a little bit but not as much but not as much but you know it gave me that opportunity to really have time with my God I have to go to the grocery store.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like I got to go to the grocery store when he's over my house.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: I have to you know take him to I gotta feed him you know and amazingly you know he can I I returned him to Nikki every time uh you know alive and all fingers and except for that one time where he split his lip open uh or chin but uh you know he he he lived but it was a good opportunity for me to you know to to spend some time with him you know father son uh time and it made me like Nikki said earlier in in the podcast a better dad yeah and appreciative of the the mental load or the role that Nikki's taken I think that's that's another thing that I've learned that you know you you guys said before you you parent really differently my ex-husband and I parent really differently too and although you know at at first I railed against the father that he wasn't I wanted him to be his kind of father you know over time I've come to accept the father that he is and he's a really great in lots of ways he's a really really awesome dad to my kids and it's a compliment but yeah allowing him that space also in the early days to do it his way to find his way through.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah Nikki I think you and I are a bit similar because I really wanted him to do it my way.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's the right way.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah yeah totally um because it is the right way no I should I shouldn't say um yeah so allowing him that space to find his own way through as a dad to as a single as a single dad to two little kids yeah yeah um right I want to ask you about your book which you touched on before Ben tell us about your book um who's it for what's it about having so I think that you know the book um he made me write it no yeah well you know I I'm I'm when it comes to like telling my telling my story and like you know being out in front of things I'm a little more reserved than he is which is weird because I'm not really reserved in day to day life.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's just I get a little so you know so we would you know we couldn't have done it without each other.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: No I and you know part of our story played out in in real life because it is real life right and and and you know we got divorced and then social media came and you know we would post we'd go on family vacations we would do these things in our normal life and people were like what the heck what is going on with those health funds Debartal's what you know are is it some polygamy like there and people started asking us questions like is this real and then people started getting divorced that we knew and they would call us and ask us you know advice and you know I come from this world of of recovery and this world of um you know shared experiences and relatedness and that's where I've made the biggest changes in my life and and I think somebody actually wasn't mind someone said or someone told us like why don't you guys write a book you guys write a book and and you know we sort of blew it off but like you know I I couldn't even write a paragraph in in in college book um but you know then I then then it came to me and I said you know we really should do this and and uh like Nikki said it you know I was okay with doing it Nikki was like I'm not doing a book and it took a while to convince her and and uh you know but but it would never have been written if she didn't do it with me.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: I mean this our happy divorce is as much hers uh as as much mine as was the end of our marriage was as much mine as it was hers.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: And it took two of us to ruin our uh uh marriage and it took two of us to make you know our happy divorce and so we took turns and we you know we we would take an experience that happened you know in our marriage and write a chapter you know back and forth and um uh you know our experiences I didn't read hers um she didn't read mine per se as much or make any comments I didn't make comments on hers because it was her experience even if I didn't agree with it right even if it wasn't my the way I saw it um and then like Nikki said um because we aren't authors and because we're not writers uh and because Nikki and I would have a little argument she would say I'm not doing your effing book and we wouldn't write it you know we wouldn't touch it for a couple months it took two years um and then after those two years we had the manuscript and we said wait a sec look at our lives like it's not the our happy divorce isn't just Nikki and I it's Chad and Nadia and so we asked them to write chapters and so they wrote chapters and and you know so it's sort of this evolving you know fake it till you make it sort of thing but the book and the writing of the book even from when we started our lives have become so much different and uh uh um blended um and then Asher I think wrote uh in eighth grade uh his essay to get into high school was write um about somebody you admire yes and he wrote about his parent all his parents and we didn't make them you know we we didn't make them right his essay was about yeah right right that's just for the uh wink wink but uh you know he wrote about us and what we've accomplished in after divorce and so we had to put that in the you know in the book and have him write a chapter because he's the reason the whole thing so and I think the you know the real reason why we wrote the book was you know wasn't to make money off this book it was yeah it was for cash and prizes for sure it was just the matter of like if we could help one couple then we did our job.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah yeah and that's the other thing you know if you know your listeners you know who are anybody who who hears this um are going no way like they are so full of you know what like if um they live in a world of rainbow uh waterfalls and unicorns and they're they're making this crap up oh we don't because I still want to kill them on that but but we just want to say that you know 14-15 years ago if you had told us that we would be sitting on a podcast talking about a book that we wrote called Our Happy Divorce we would tell you you're out of your mind.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah and there's no way and we would think that the people who we heard us talking were full of you know what to but it's real you know and that's why we wrote it is just to give people some sort of hope and if you've you know gathered anything from Nikki and I uh personalities uh is that we are type A you know sort of when we went at it it was like two sheep rams you know going at it banging their heads and so if we can do it we're pretty much convinced you got no excuse.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic fantastic I love that and I love that it's just that you know it's a glimmer of hope because it's it is possible.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: It is possible and you both need to commit to it sure.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah a different story is really possible and it's exactly why my business and my business exists and why I do what I do why I put the podcast out there.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: I just want other people to know that you can have a happy separation a happy divorce you can it is possible.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: So Ben and Mickey where can the listeners find and connect with you um everything this is really hard so get down a pencil and pad uh everything at our happy divorce Instagram uh website our happy divorce dot com um wherever you know social media can be found it's uh it's at our happy divorce um and and one thing I also somebody asked us what what our happy divorce means um and yes our story is is different and unique you know yours is different unique and there's no sort of sort of for us there's no sliding you know litness test of what our happy divorce means except uh that you don't uh hand your bill uh the you don't hand your kids the emotional bill for your decisions right they didn't pick the restaurant they didn't order the wine they didn't order the food and they shouldn't be responsible for paying for that emotional bill right so that if you're able to manage that you don't have to like the other person you don't have to do whatever but as long as you can you know avoid your kids paying that emotional bill to us that's our happy divorce it doesn't have to be this craziness of sitting next to your ex-wife and actually loving her and liking her a little bit a little bit a little bit yeah so powerful I love that message and I love that metaphor for yeah what happy divorce looks like because of course it's gonna look it's going to be unique to each couple it's going to be unique to each family.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah and the Rainbow Unicorn option might not work for everybody but if you just don't hand your kid that emotional bill then you I think it's a successful successful outcome just something that you do.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_00: Last question to both of you and this is something that I ask all my podcast guests if you could each choose a song to support couples, families, moving through divorce, wanting to make it peaceful and happy what would what song would you each choose?
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_02: Hang it tough by the dick something I'm just kidding.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_01: Well that's funny.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_02: That was I mean you know that was my witty one you stumped me.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_00: All right you'll have to come back to me all right and I'll drop it all in the show notes.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: So have a think about it and um come back to me if you can't think of one on the spot.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah yeah I can't on the spot and I know that it was in uh but I just can't right now think of them.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_01: But I will drop it to you and put in the show notes and uh because it has to be perfect.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean it can't just be off the cus because I was going to say one by you too but it's not really a song about it's actually a song about splitting up.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_00: So we can pop that in there too and then you can come back to me with the uplifting uplifting.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_01: I will also drop all the our happy divorce uh social media website links book all that stuff in the show notes too thank you both so so much for sharing very much for having us you're so welcome yeah thank you for having it's great to know that on you know opposite ends of the uh of the continents and different continents people are doing this thing right and committed to doing this thing right it warms our it warms our hearts so thank you yeah doing it right doing it at least doing it a little bit better than it's been done in the past and changing the stories yeah thanks guys have a great thank you evening night thank you cheers yeah thank you take care