Latest / Reframe / 10: William Patino, New Zealand wilderness and the outdoors

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10: William Patino, New Zealand wilderness and the outdoors · Reframe

• 1:25
  SPEAKER_04: Join us in conversation with landscape photographer William Patino, an Illawaran native who now calls New Zealand home.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_04: Will takes us through his photography journey, how he pivoted through COVID, his passion for exploration and capturing images, and we touch on how showing his workshop participants his backyard brings him joy.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_04: Before we get going, how was um how was your trip back home?
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: No, I don't call it home anymore, to be honest.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_04: But um anyway.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I'm laughing for I thought you were asking about when he flew back to New Zealand.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because New Zealand's his home now.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, NZ home, mate.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like after six months of being here, I was like, this is home.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: But um yeah, anyway, back to New South Wales.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: It was good, mate.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that I just I didn't really get any downtime.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like I had about half a day off at the most.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it was just to kind of get in and get out, rinate and the kids flew over anyway.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: But um, yeah, no, it was awesome.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: The workshops went really well, and yeah, it was cool to be back in the area and everyone had a good time on the workshops, which was the main thing.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I can't complain about that.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was good.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: We saw you down at the classic cathedral rocks there.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, hit the classics, yeah.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: The workshops was just the classics and just kind of teaching, you know, some real good uh fundamental stuff and everything.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not it's good to go back to those spots when it's been like four or five years or whatever it's been.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's like you don't mind going back there after that much of a break.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: You kind of almost look at it with fresh eyes, which is pretty cool.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, I I am definitely jealous, hey, of uh the move to New Zealand.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_04: I love that place.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: Anyone that isn't aware, uh, we're speaking to Mr.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: Will Patino today.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: And uh welcome to the show today, Will.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_04: G'day guys, thanks for having me.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, our pleasure.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_04: Um we tried to get you while you were in town, but uh that that didn't happen.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_04: As you were just saying, you're pretty busy.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_04: So um what's new?
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_04: What's happening with you over in New Zealand?
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, uh, to be honest, nothing's really what I'd call new.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of just rinse and repeat, really, with life at the moment.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like I've got two young kids who are uh six and eight.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: My son's that's almost seven and nine, but um, so they're you know, they're going to school and I'm ticking away just with the photography career, mainly primarily teaching through, you know, running workshops and different things online and videos and whatnot.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then, you know, just just as passionate as ever about the the landscape here in NZ and just trying to get out as much as I can and you know, just enjoy it all really.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: So it's that's kind of been the cycle realistically for I've been here in New Zealand six years, so that's been at least six years of doing that.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, so nothing too new, but no, no complaints.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like this is how I like it, just enjoying life and trying not to take anything for granted.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_04: Oh well said.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_04: Hey, um, for those who don't know, can you take us through the journey from moving from the Ilawarra, Wollongong area, to New Zealand?
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um I so yeah, born and raised in Wollongong, and then I was doing photography full time as a career since 2014, late 2014.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and teaching.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I was coming over to NZ to run workshops uh a couple of times a year, three, four times actually a year, and then I'd come over for family holidays.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: If I wanted to do some shooting just for me, I'd I'd sip across.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and then on top of that, I was doing some teaching in Iceland, so running trips in Iceland once a year, going over and doing a few weeks there, and even Patagonia, Canada.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm mentioning all this just because um when you're out you know, enjoying places like that, why not go back to Wollongong?
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: It was it's just such a contrast, obviously.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you're going from rugged mountain terrain and wilderness and then yeah, going back to coastal, you know.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: A city essentially.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um and mate, it just it just didn't feel like home anymore, even though it was home for all my life.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I was born in Wollongong hospital and et cetera, and all the family was there.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: But uh, you know, when I first started coming to New Zealand, that that it felt like home to me, especially down here in Fjordland where I live.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, getting into the rainforest and you know, ferns, mountains, rivers, it just it just truly felt like this is me, this is where I belong.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: So multiple trips here, it just got to the point where I was actually, it was like I was torn within.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: It just didn't make sense to leave.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't like leaving when I'd fly out of the country to go back to Australia.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, I'd rather go here, I shouldn't be leaving.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it just literally got to that point where it's like, well, either do something about it or just gonna have to get over it, basically.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I we kind of toyed with the idea, my wife and I.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: We said, Oh, one day that'll be cool when the kids are older.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: Cause I think, you know, my son was like two and my daughter was literally just born.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: We're like, oh, maybe when they're older.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then we started just kind of looking at real estate and you know, just kind of sussing it out, and then it just escalated pretty quick.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: And six months later we were we bought a house and jumped moved over, basically.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: So it all kind of moved pretty quick once we started looking.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I'm glad it worked out that way.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: It was just it just felt natural to just kind of go for it once we started looking into it seriously.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's awesome that you've found a home there and you it shines through in work too.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like the places you've taken taken your photography to in New Zealand are places that many people have probably never seen before.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, mate.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's that what you know.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: When I first picked up a camera in Australia, like in the Ilawarra back in 2011, 2012, I was photographing stuff that I just hadn't seen before.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I'm not saying I discovered any of it by any stretch of the imagination, but there was a huge um role of curiosity in my photography and exploration and excitement that comes with that, because I'd go to these coastlines and headlands in the Ilawarra, and I'd just park the car and just start walking and exploring and wonder what I'd find.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of that seascape photography is heavily reliant on just the right rock structure or little channels where the water can flow in and out, just you know, subtle nuances like that.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: So being able to go and explore and find these little things and the way the water would rush off the rocks, and I love that excitement.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: I wasn't looking at other people's photos and going, oh, I'm gonna go there and try and replicate that shot.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: And there's nothing wrong with doing that.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: But for me, I it was that curiosity, it just kept on driving me.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's why when I was a tradesman, I would still get out of bed at an hour and a half before the sunrise, every single day, I'll check the sky and then I'll just have this drive inside of me because I just love thinking, what am I gonna find?
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: What am I gonna see?
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: What's the light gonna do?
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: So with New Zealand and and being where I am, I knew that was here for me as well.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's just that unlimited um possibility with exploration and being able to just explore whether it's in the forest or going up a mountain valley or looking for a waterfall or hidden within the forest.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: There's just so many things.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what just keeps me inspired.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I can't ever get bored because there's just so much there that is yet to be seen, or a lot of it here, and especially Fjordland, that not only has it not been seen, but there's you know like there's no human foot that's stood in some of these areas because it's just so vast and remote.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of it is why would someone stand there?
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's just no logical reason to go up these little, you know, follow a creek up the back of something and climb up here and go through a canyon, or you know, for example.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: So that just keeps me pumped and inspired, really.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like even now talking about it, I'm like, oh, I want to get out there now.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_04: He's about to leave the podcast and go straight out there.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: As soon as you start you get into it, you're like, man, I'm hanging to be out there.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that's the key to any creative pursuit or any creative outlet is um you've got to have that drive.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of people that get into a hobby, whatever it may be, they start off with that drive and then very quickly you can just burn out.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: And that's very normal.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: That happens to everyone.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: But I feel like for me, that's what's allowed me to keep doing this and sustaining it as a career.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not just going through the motions, like I genuinely have that excitement each time.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I bring that to the clients as well.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'm excited to show them things, even if I've seen those places so many times.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I think that really helps, and you can't really fabricate that.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard to fabricate passion, essentially.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I'm just so thankful that yeah, I've still got that all these years later.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, it's it's it's a blessing and such enrich my life in so many ways.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_04: Speaking about your passion um for photography and and how it just keeps pulling you back.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_04: Do you think that's what got you through the whole COVID situation?
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_04: Not having clients, not being able to travel, and then you've started processing these uh your new workshops, online tutorials and things like that.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_04: Do you think your passion's what really drove that home?
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that was um obviously, yeah, it's a that was a challenging time for everyone, obviously.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I did have a period there where it got a bit, you know, but so to summarize, income had stopped because the borders were shut.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I had a year's worth of bookings which I had to put on hold.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: And those bookings were either a a deposit was left with me or a complete payment, depending on how soon their trip was.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: So essentially I was I was in a position where I'd taken quite a lot of money, which that money goes towards a mortgage, feeding a family, etc.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd taken that money and then I was unable to deliver the product, but there was that question mark of, well, how long?
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's one month.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: So everything was just getting postponed, postponed, and in the meantime, minimum income obviously coming in.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then yeah, eventually I hit a point where it was clear that okay, this is going to be at least 12 months or something like that.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, around that same time, I basically um met someone who works in marketing, they're based in the States, and um they really specialize in helping people sell online courses essentially, primarily photographers as well.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: And they're looking at taking on board a couple of landscape guys instead of just the portrait and like Photoshop people that they represent.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I already had some tutorials I made prior, maybe 2019.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: I just had this feeling like I should make some online tutorials specifically going into the field, not just doing processing, because a lot of guys were doing the processing, but not so much in the field.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I kind of saw that as a bit of a hole in the market, a bit of an opportunity, and just something I was passionate about doing anyway.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I had some there, but it was just nowhere near enough to kind of repackage and keep selling because it was already a year old.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, long story short, um, I spent most of 2020 and early 2021 just going out and making a substantial amount more of tutorials, uh, just teaching.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but there was no income coming in.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I really was in this position where it was like, all right, I'm it was all chips on the table, essentially.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um the workshop stuff was just on hold until borders reopened.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: So it was like, all right, how am I going to provide for the family?
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it was essentially, all right, I'm gonna give this everything and make as much of this stuff as I can.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: But I had to make X amount of hours worth before we could launch it and it goes live and we start rolling it all out.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: So there's uh 10 to 12 months, maybe longer, of minimal income coming in, and all my time essentially was put into making this stuff.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I yeah, I gotta admit that I just had to fill that backstory in because with your question, there was definitely a few times there where it was like, oh man, is this actually gonna work or is this all just a waste of time?
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's just at the last minute not gonna go through for whatever reason.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot that goes into this type of stuff, building a whole new website, a big, you know, a whole different approach with marketing and things like that.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so and I did start to lose the passion a little bit just because, yeah, the uncertainty of the borders being shut and starting to wonder like, um, is this it for my career?
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like if this goes on for five years, this is not sustainable.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like you can't have borders shut for five years and keep doing what I do for a living.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: There's not enough Kiwis that are going to come and do a workshop.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I need borders open.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: So that was starting to weigh on me a little bit just because the and let lots of countries had their own different things, but the government here, they just kept the borders shut a bit longer than a lot of places, and there was no real light at the end of the throw tunnel, so to speak.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I actually got a little bit of the mental health, a bit of depression starting to creep back in again as well for the first time in years, because there was a bit of a monotonous cycle of just, yeah, it's like, all right, I'm starting to lose a passion for photography now because it almost feels like it's in vain to a degree, you know.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: It was just uh just a dark cloud, you know.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: It was it was a bit of a tough time, but we we stuck it out and persevered and made it speed.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, it all worked out, obviously, in the end.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: But it's a definite a window there.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: I I'll never say like I was stressed.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: I always had this a bit of a calm, just a thought of it'll be okay.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we'll be provided for one way or another.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, there was definitely a few times there where it was I was just like, I started to lose the passion for photography and I started to go downhill a little bit.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: And it was a real learning curve because I finally forced myself to get outside and um go for a hike for a few days, just a multi-day hike.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, I don't even care about photography anymore.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: I need to get back to nature because that's what this is all about for me.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: I realized nature was the big part of it, just connecting with, you know, the natural world.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: So when I did that, literally that first few hours of hiking, I just come across the most perfect photography scenario.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's like I'm talking waterfalls with sunlight, creating light beams and things that you could never forecast.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: You just had to be there in that exact moment.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what I encountered on this particular hike I went on, and it just reaffirmed everything for me.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: My whole journey, being here, doing what I do.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: It was just like, nah, you're still on the right path.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like just persevere and push through.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: And that was a real strong turning point, not a turning point, but it's just a great reminder for me that I am meant to be here and I feel like this is what I'm called to do for now and don't lose sight.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, sorry, I got a bit sidetracked there.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's all right.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: It kind of brought back the memories of that because it I was getting in a bit of a darker place.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's not not too dark, but just yeah, I remember starting to lose that hope, you know, and then that just reignited everything.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what happened when I first got into photography all those years ago.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: It was a very similar thing, but I was in a a harder place then.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: But then it was just everything transformed once I got out and started looking at light and using the camera.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like I had like this second phase there, you know, all these years later, just another affirmation that it was the right path to be on.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_04: But that um that last or the first part of the dark site will actually led to you to where you are now.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_04: So that's the best part is that at least you still had photography is the light at the end of your tunnel, which is positive.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'll tell you, the light at the end of your tunnel is what must have been the brightest light ever.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's like you made such a great career for especially like for where I'm sitting, you've like nailed it for like the last 10 years, basically.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: Oh mate, like I don't know.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: I just some people have asked me that over the years, like from a business side of things, and that and I've never sat down and said, all right, I'm gonna do this and I wanna make this much money, and I wanna do my goal, my passion, the the whole thing, the driving force has just been um, I just want to take better photos.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when I was making money from photography while I was still a tradesman, all the guys I worked with were like, when are you gonna do it full time?
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I just had zero aspirations to make money from photography.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, no, that's not, I just want to take, I just want to be better at the art.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: I just want to, I know that there's stuff out there to photograph.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: I want to see it.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I want to do.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: I want to see some really amazing stuff, and then I just want to translate that with the camera.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: And all these years later, that's still the driving force.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like you will see me just last week, a bit of snow come through.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: The day I got back from Australia, I could see a big front was coming here.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: So the next morning I was up at four o'clock, and then I we hiked.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: I grabbed two mates who were visiting.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: I said, Hey, I'll show you something cool in the morning.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: You just got to get to mine at 4 a.m.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then bang, I dragged them up a mountain and we're in the snow.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm only doing that because I just love it.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's so I just feel like that's really helped.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then the business side of it's just, you know, you've got to make decisions along the way, obviously.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, you're providing for a family and I've got a mortgage and everything like that.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: But I just feel like just staying true to me ultimately as much as I can has probably been the key.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: And like I said earlier, just having that passion first and foremost, you just can't, you can't replicate this.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: And something like teaching as well, you could be the best photographer in the world, but if you don't, if you're not a good teacher or you don't enjoy it, or you're not good with leading a group, and all there's so many elements.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess I I don't know, maybe naturally some of those things are just falling into my lap where I feel like I've just got a bit of a gift I don't want to say gift, but yeah, I just feel like when I'm around other people and other photographers and I can show them something I'm passionate about, like out here in the landscape, it's just so simple for me because it feels completely natural.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like the key is just staying true to yourself.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: So over the years, how do you think the way you serve your customers has developed?
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: So you like when you first started running workshops to now, sort of what were the changing pivotal modes which brought you to how you teach today?
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome question, mate.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like I cringe sometimes when I think back three, four, five years ago, just because I feel like I've learned so much more.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: You learn the most when you teach, as you would really be aware, you know.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: When someone says to you why, you know, a lot of what I do is just um in the flow state, intuition, not overly thinking.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: So when someone says, but why, but why, but why, and you're like, oh, and you have to dissect it, then you're forced to learn.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: So when you do that for over 10 years and increase the amount of teaching that you're doing, and especially the video stuff, you know, it's easier to teach in person because you you got that real time back and forth, and you can really change your the words you're using.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: When you put it in a video, it's locked in and you have to really make sure it's making sense.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, to sum to kind of answer quickly there, um, I feel like I'm just a way better teacher now, and I just understand the the art a lot better than I did years ago.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like I've developed um just just better ways of articulating the how and the why, but primarily the why, not so much oh, this is how I do it, but more this is why I do it, or this is why I recommend you do it.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: But also breaking the mold a bit too and being like, yeah, that works for me, but you're different, everyone's unique.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: So what I'm doing is not the only way.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I just it's common sense really.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: No matter what you were teaching, you'll just get better as the years roll on.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I definitely look back a little bit and yeah, I don't know.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: I just feel like I've just changed.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: Honestly, I just feel like I've changed as a person so much.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: You just kind of mature, you kind of get into a you get into a more comfortable state.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like I'm just more comfortable now and more confident.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: I don't care what the conditions are doing.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like years ago, I'd be looking at the weather all the time.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: Now I just I don't know, I just have this confidence I it's all good.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: We're we're gonna have a good time regardless and not too stressed about it.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like also the first few years of teaching and you're going out to places that you don't get to go to often.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, it it is tricky to not be shooting yourself as well.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I feel like now it's just and I I shoot handheld.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I like to teach with my camera.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'll I'll take people to like a specific area and I'll be like, hey, try this and I'll shoot it with my camera and I'll show them.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I really enjoy teaching.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: It helps people to see, obviously, real time.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's what you're talking about, and blah, blah, blah.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, maybe a few years back it was probably, I'm not saying I left clients or anything like that, but I just feel like probably my way of articulating this is why we do this, or this is why I would approach it like that, or consider trying this.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: I just feel like, yeah, completely different teacher.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I hopefully I'll probably saying the same thing in five more years to come as well.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like you want to look back and see progression, but yeah, I feel like I I just understand visual arts.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's not so much photography anymore, it's just visual arts in general.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like I've got a greater understanding behind all right, how do we create depth?
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: How do we lead the eye?
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, how do we create separation and just all these little different factors?
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's the whole process.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: side which is all tied into that as well.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: I think living here, just sorry, I'm not dragging on, but just living here helps, you know, guiding.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: Doing workshops in a country that is literally what you live and breathe day in, day out, you just do have that confidence of, I don't care what the weather's doing, I know I can take you here, I can take you there, we'll do this.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: But when you don't live here, you you are a bit like, oh no, what are we going to do if it's snowing or the roads shut or it's raining or it's too sunny?
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but once you get so familiar with the landscape that you just know like sweet, I'm gonna take them up this area, there's a specific tree here or there's a valley or whatever.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I think all of that just ties in together to make it a whole better experience for everyone.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_04: On on the topic of workshops and and leading people into these areas, what steps and precautions are you taking um in in the area so you leave no trace sort of for lack of better term.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_04: Because I know it's quite fragile in some of these areas that you that you personally hike to what what precautions are you taking um out in the field?
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: In uh New Zealand the the national parks are governed by the Department of Conservation, DOC.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: So if you do any commercial activity in DOC land, which is all the national parks it's pretty much 95% of every photographer, you know, photo place you have like Fjordland National Park is all under DOC, for example Mount Cook National Park, etc.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're going to run a commercial business, you need to have concessions.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: Concessions are basically permits.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: And the way the permit system works here is you can't just get a permit for field land.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: You literally need the permit, the concession for every physical spot you plan to be walking on with GPS coordinates.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: So you can't just say oh Milford Sound it's like but where are you going to park?
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: What's the group size?
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: What's duration?
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: What's the frequency?
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: So how many times per year?
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: So you can imagine like every maybe stream that I want to take people down like a stream by the side of the road where we walk 50 meters and then there's a mountain in the back or something like that.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: Even that needs its own concession.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: So it's literally you're applying for every single potential spot you can stop the car.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: So in order to get those concessions not only do you need to fill out the GPS coordinates, the frequency and all these things, but then you have to have a safety management system in place.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then that has to be audited by an external company.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah our business my wife helps me obviously um first and foremost it's making sure that all right safety safety first we're out in nature one you've got to protect and conserve the the environment and then also make sure that no one's going to get hurt.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: So where I generally take people on workshop is typically places that the risk is no greater than what you'd have say Cathedral Rocks in the Illawarra where it's unave uneven terrain it can be slippery um it's almost like you'll get hurt if you're just not paying attention that's generally the type of places that I'm taking people.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: The main threat here in this country and most photography hotspot areas is frequency.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: So you have let's say um the Grand Canyon right you're getting a million plus people probably 10 million a year.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: So look at all that foot traffic you get going on.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: So the benefit is if I take people to places that no one else is going to then it's only me and it's only 10 times a year.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: So maximum you're going to get you know 50 footprints in there across the entire calendar year.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: So it actually works in the favor you having places that are less actually off the beaten path because there's so much wilderness you're better off just going to these spots a handful of times per year, minimal, you know, leave no trace, minimal damage done and then that's it.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: So but again some places it's just like it could be a flat out no, you can't get a concession there.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's other places that I obviously find and I think oh this is amazing but I wouldn't take a group here.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's just not going to work either it's too fragile of an environment or maybe it's going to be too hard to shoot, you know, my group size is a maximum six so I like to keep the group size down as well.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's one of the big things that I'm big on that's not only to make sure the locations are not getting trotten down but also just a better experience for the people coming on the trip.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah there's quite a few factors there really at the end of the day but yeah anything that could have any impact significantly on the environment one I would notice and say all right I think I won't bring people here or two doc just won't give you the permit they'll go nah that area's you know the moss there is 400 years old you can't walk in it.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: No, the answer's no so yeah it's quite a few quite a few things that come into play.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: You also just got to gauge it as well in real time you know when you've got clients some people say they're fine and able but then you realize pretty quickly like oh no they're not going to be okay walking on this uneven ground.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: So then you've got to really adapt on the fly I cater all the workshops though to be nice and sweet minimal fitness level um I don't do any backcountry workshops or anything like that.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: It just it's not worth it.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'll do that myself with friends or just solo but when it comes to actually guiding and running a business the key is just simplicity safe and it works and there's minimal impact.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: So it's amazing anything anything backcountry would just be such a nightmare because I I've I've personally works I've seen on workshops you know people crying in the middle of the night um because they they can't deal with the cold next camping for the first time on the snow because they obviously bought the incorrect gear because they didn't understand and things like that.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's it's definitely it adds so many more layers plus trying to get all your permits as well that nearly impossible in some places.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah the stress on your shoulders is just magnified because you're in the remote area and then you just go why like why am I doing this?
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: I should just run another of one of those other workshops and yeah um I do have some clients who have done multiple trips over the years and I do have concessions for a few areas where it's maybe four to five hours hiking.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: So that's where I might go all right mate come and do a private workshop because I know you we've worked together before and then we can do it.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: But when it comes to groups it's just definitely a lot easier and the other aspect is because some people will contact me and they'll say oh can we do some hiking on the workshop but I'll often try and steer them away because I'd rather I can get them five shots solid portfolio shots in a day with minimal hiking but if they want to hike you might get one good shot now.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because you want to go two hours up the hill we've got to get the light two hours down it's like you spent four hours walking you know it's a waste of time not there's anything wrong with that but I mean like when it comes to a business sense and giving a customer the best bang for their buck it's like do you really want to be hiking most of the time and that to me that's more I'd rather not take the camera let's just go hiking you know once you want to bring the camera in it's like well you're not going to get that many photos now.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah it's a bit of a juggling act but that's why like I said I just try and keep it I've got a standard like signature workshop I do.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: And then if anyone wants to do a little bit of hiking just do a private workshop and we can gauge it from there.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm definitely reluctant if I don't know them already unless I can see that they've got the experience in the backcountry because yeah it's not for everyone and once you start you realize pretty quick like oh no what have we done here we've signed up for something we shouldn't have and you gotta you got to change everything.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: But I haven't had any scenarios like that for that reason.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: Just try and avoid it.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah yeah I've seen um some awesome footage of you flying on top of mountains uh in a helicopter landing getting out taking some photos in the backcountry doing all these certain things if you had one place and it's probably going to be very hard to choose but if you had one place to can always shoot in New Zealand where would it be?
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: One that you can actually copy um yeah helicopter stuff that's what's funny about online like you do do that a handful of times and it looks like it could be happening every week the way social media works.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah I've been fortunate that sometimes you'll have clients that might want to come in and say we want to do aerials or you know things like that.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: We want to go see doubtful sound but can we do it from above and that's where those opportunities can come up for me because I know the landscape like the back of my hand and the way the light will work.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why yeah some stuff like that's probably come up.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: And in the past you know every now and then I might have got a mate and said yeah man let's go and land out here.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: The way the terrain is here it's it's so rugged and remote that some of these areas even if you wanted to hike you probably need 15 days and it might not still be possible to get to that vantage point and that's where a helicopter can come in handy.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: Not that yeah I haven't done that for a while now but um another part of that is the helicopters here in NZ they're used every day for by by the Department of Conservation for um predator control.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: So they've got a big problem here with rats and stoats and possums destroying the the natural bird life.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: So they a lot of the work done in the backcountry of New Zealand is putting in traplines to trap these um predators and that's where helicopters will often be utilized to get people out into that area.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: So every now and then I might have an opportunity to jump on what they call a backload.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: They might be like hey we're taking two people into this remote area we're not going to pick them up for a few days that there's a spare seat on the Heli.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like well the heli's going in anyway so you could use that to really cover 60 kilometers of rugged terrain and then get you somewhere.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: But in regards to where would I photograph just fjord land like the national park here is the biggest one in the country and you like most of my imagery is created here and I could happily spend the rest of my career photographing fjord land because it encompasses everything that I love.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: We have pristine rivers, slush rainforests, snow capped mountains um and the ocean as well like a lot of field land reaches out onto the coast.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: The challenge is the access it's just so as I said it's so incredibly remote.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: Where I live in Tiania um like even now I can look over with mountains there, but there's no road that goes to those mountains.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: There's a huge lake in front of it.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah and then the mountains I'm looking at from my house here, they're just the the front wall and then it just keeps going on for tens and you know hundreds of kilometers all the way through no roads and that's the beauty of it not having those roads there but therein lies the challenge that all right if you want to go and photograph these spots which are really far out you might need the heli you might need a boat you might need both.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: So sometimes we'll ex I each year we do a trip out in the remote fiords um and there's a couple of small boat operators out there but to get on the boat you need heli to even get out there.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's just that far away um so yeah in in short it's fjord land but there's just so many different valleys fiords and you know there's a lifetime to be done I could easily just photograph here forever.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: But it like I said that's hard you can't just often pick the camera up and go, all right, I'm gonna go for a quick shoot.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: I can definitely do that but all of that is roadside and you can still park the car and go walk for multiple days on end.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: But a lot of the stuff they're really starting to call me is it's all right it's gonna be a multi-day expedition now we're gonna have to start off with a boat across the lake or a pack raft going to be four hours down that valley, six hours over that pass.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: Then we're in the valley we want to be in we need at least four days it's just all starting to get a little bit more time consuming.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: So because I've done six years now of kind of what I'd call the easier to access stuff and that's anything what I'd say eight hours or less now it's getting to the point where it's like oh man I need to actually block out some dates in the calendar trying to get out to some of these harder to reach places.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just uh expensive it's definitely challenging.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's a bit like Alaska right it's just so much wilderness they could use bushplanes and everything to get around so but that's good.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's it's good to have that challenge here.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: And you can't even get a helicopter everywhere.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: There's permits somewhere they can land as well which is great.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah there's it's just getting the logistics like all right how can I get it out to that spot can I use a boat is there a fisherman going out there there are lots of different things that got it a lot on it's definitely God's country though that where you live I can tell you that oh yeah definitely I just want to touch on your handheld photography for landscapes because I know it sometimes seems a bit unorthodox for a landscape photographer to shoot handheld and I was wondering where how you managed to transition into that and and why you decided to do it.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah it's unorthodox I still kind of get I wouldn't call it haters but I just get some people who would they just don't want to believe it or I try to like pick on it in some way like oh yeah but blah blah blah blah and try to find a a way where it's like maybe it's they think it's just still not possible.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: Because yeah it is unorthodox obviously the reason why I started shooting handheld was when I moved here um I wanted to get out and photograph in the rain because when it rains here in Fjordland even at rainforest in general the the colours are a lot more saturated but in Fjordland some of the valleys are so steep and you just get waterfalls that just start pouring off the side of a mountain the waterfalls that are only there when it's pouring rain and I'm talking 50 mil plus in the day.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's not just sprinkling it's proper rain.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: And uh yeah so there was one specific day where I wanted to I wanted to get in the river so I had to you know do a bit of rock popping boulder scrambling now I'm standing in the river and I I think I might have took the tripod down or was thinking about it and I was like if I put the camera on the tripod here in this pouring rain it's gonna be pretty much dead or unusable by the time I kind of set up the tripod you know by the time you set it up and put the camera on you've cooked the camera the lens is soaked I just thought you know what's gonna be frustrating I'll just have to try this handheld and in the river particularly I wanted to streak the water as we like to do as landscape photographers.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: It just gives a nice painterly texture on the water.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I knew I needed a little bit of a slower shutter speed one tenth of a second one thirteenth for example so I just started shooting handheld and I the um a big microfiber towel on me and I just wiped the front of the lens.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: I could shoot I could wipe it keep the camera under the lens in between shooting underneath the cloth by shooting and anyway lo and behold when I got home I checked the vials and I was like man they're they're sharp most of them and the water flow is exactly what I wanted like I got that slow shutter speed and it was nice.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: So that was the first eye-opening moment and then from there I just remember the next time I went shooting it's like I'll just try it again and then there was a specific time around that time period where I was in the forest and I was trying to get a sun star creeping through the trees and I had ferns in my foreground and as you know when you're getting a sun star you need to be on that exact position.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise the sun star is too big or it's too small.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: And as you can probably relate to most photographers can when you're trying to do that on a tripod it is so frustrating because the sun moves or the tripod moves a little bit and you lose the sunstar.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I vividly remember trying this and I I'm in the forest and it's on a bit of a slope so it's not flat ground and the second I like nipped up the tripod to tighten it the camera moved like two mil and I lost the sun star.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember I don't have you know I'm pretty calm normally but I remember just taking the tripod off and throwing it like I just threw it over my shoulder because I was so frustrated.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: So the video I was good at the video the videos are true throwing the stuff that in the true thrill that was six years ago and that was the last time I ever used it for anything outside Astro that was I said never again this is just killing me I know I can do this handheld so I just got rid of it and yeah the only time I use it now is if it's Astro I shoot Astro probably four times a year.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like I don't really like Astro that much.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: So when it comes to the the handheld stuff it's obviously um the stabilization in the mirrorless bodies I've been shooting mirrorless since 2013 and the stabilization in body has just got better and better and better over the years.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: So that first and foremost helps and then I just figured out little techniques to help me if I was focused stacking if I needed a slightly slower shutter on the water um I just developed little techniques over the years where I was like just guaranteed that I didn't use the tripod and now it's just at the point where like I said it's been six years.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I've probably almost been shooting handheld longer than I have with a tripod.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just completely organic to me.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: It just doesn't the you know if I go out shooting with someone and they're on the tripod a part of me especially if it's relatively bright I'm just like why?
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: I don't understand.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: But that's because I'm used to now when I look through the lens handheld I feel more connected to nature because nothing's breaking the flow state I'm just I'm so zoned in on the subject there's nothing in between me and the subject but the second I would have to get a tripod out I've broken my state of flow.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm now looking at these carbon fiber and I'm adjusting legs and I'm trying to line it up to me I'm that's completely not what I want to be doing.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: I want to be staring at the subject in the intricate details and just pointing my lens at it right with the camera up against my face.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like that's as intimate as you can get with the subject the second I introduce a tripod that just is yeah incredibly frustrating and it's just not what I want to be doing.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: So now it's just at a point where it's so organic.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: But when I teach, you know, over 60% of the people will have a tripod and I want them to have a tripod because they don't have a body that's stabilized or maybe their hands are a little bit shaky etc so it's often I'm still often having to teach people using their tripod, you know, helping them set up and everything like that.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because sometimes people contact me and say I want to do a workshop but I have a tripod and I'm like yeah it's fine.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's like just because I don't use one you probably find in a lot of professions you know what the you know the professional does is not often what they may teach because it's just it's not applicable to everyone.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: You've got to kind of get to a certain comfort zone where you're able to maybe make those same calls about not using certain things.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like I don't use a polarizer I don't use ND filters I just don't use anything but a camera and a lens you know three lenses I'm good to go.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah when it comes to certain people and say no no in this case why don't you get this out why don't you do that?
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to use a 10-stop filter and smooth it all out let's go for it.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: And if that's your creative vision I'll help you do it.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_00: But for me that's just not how I shoot you know we're all different.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_00: I like in photography with music.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's like we all listen to different music different genres um so you just gotta figure out what what's your genre and what's the way that you like to interpret things but it doesn't mean you can't appreciate the other types or play that other music when you need to so that's why when I'm teaching I can say to people yeah yeah we can chuck the filter on and do this or do that.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah yeah throw those 10 stops to me if you don't want them or use it yeah exactly yeah but like the photos you like your work I I love looking at I a lot of the photography I like looking at is generally what I don't do.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_00: I don't really like looking at what the images that I make generally you've done that refreshing it doesn't mean I want to do it but I like looking at street photography portraits you know just all sorts of stuff um I get inspiration from just seeing people do something to the best of their ability ultimately at the end of the day.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_04: So it's a good time to be a photographer you can oh yeah you can excel in so many different things you don't have to do everything you know you can really dial in on a a bit of a niche I think you've been like that for as long as I've known you where you've taken more inspiration from people that don't shoot your genre than than what you do.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah I think I think it's a good way to be wait a minute if you can you can just draw I really like how they got the light on that and I like their composition and you're like well cool that's awesome.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to you don't have to go replicate someone else's work to like get inspired I don't think I agree yeah yeah exactly um quick question as while we're on the topic and you're talking about your gear what are you exactly using that nowadays is it still a Sony system or like what do you use yeah I've got the uh a7R5 and then I've got a 12 to 24 mil I do have a 16 to 35 which I'll use on a rainy day because the 12 to 24 is so bad in the rain it just the water doesn't lift off the lens very well when you clean it uh super frustrating um and then I've got a Temron 28 to 75 that's a mid-range and then a 100 to 400 Sony I do have a two times converter so I do have a couple of portfolio shots that are like 800 mil super compressed um but yeah that's the setup but look I'm no I'll I'll use whatever like I'd happily shoot with a Canon R5 or the Nikon Z8.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_00: I really don't care about gear I just could not care less you know I just let's just get the shot the photo the camera the gear to me is almost just a distraction it's just a pain in the butt.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah I need it to create the image but I don't really care for brands or I don't have any you know um affiliate things with certain companies the amount of tripod and filter companies I've turned down over the years um I just to me it's like that's just whatever it takes to get the job done.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_00: And at the moment for me it's still Sony yeah but I'd happily use those other brands um no questions asked but for now I'll just use whatever's going to make my job easier.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah the system I got now I I couldn't complain it works really well.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah workhorse for yeah yeah the Sony is a good system and and for you you need something small and agile so you can get in and out of it if even if you're in a bad situation you can pick it up and run.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_04: So I guess that's where the tr not having a tripod comes in handy as well.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: Oh the amount of compositions I have where you'd never get a tripod there if you tried like I'm I'm holding it like up in a tree above my head or maybe it's down at ankle level hovering above the water you know just little things like that.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_00: It just that's where the handheld stuff it just allows you those possibilities where you just would never have got it otherwise.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_00: So now the way I see the world is like at that type of perspective before I get the camera out I'm like oh I can see up there that would work or that would work with the tripod I just not saying you can't Get good shots with a tripod, obviously, but it has changed the way that I compose and kind of look at things.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but the system I have is the stabilization, it's pretty good in the weather, like where I live and what I put these things through, they they just get so flogged and I haven't really had one die unless it's been blasted by a wave, but I haven't killed one in the rain.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I live in one of the wettest places in the world when I start going west here, like I've been out in some immense rain and they're fine.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, just those little factors.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's like that's why I like the gear that I have.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_00: But like I said, any moderate, you know, mirrorless camera I'd be happy to use, really.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_00: No worries at all.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_01: I I want to touch on your handheld stuff again and the technique.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_01: So for anyone listening, do you do any like breathing techniques or anything like to stop yourself from sheeting?
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: Because I know, like, even when I do it, like you know, you shoot telephoto, I'll usually do it where you like you'll I exhale all the way and then I'll take my shot because that'll like stop any vibration of my body.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, for sure, man.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I just figure that out organically as well.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: I just know that's like I'd stop breathing or I'd exhale and then shoot.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_00: Another thing I'll do is like depending on the composition, the composition might come from me sitting down and then I've got my legs crossed, my elbows are on my knees, and then I'm so I'm literally hunched in like a human tripod.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_00: But that's what the composition required anyway, but now it's perfect because it means I'm like a rock.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I can easily get a second handheld now on the wide angle, like that's no questions asked.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and anything below a second is almost guaranteed, like half a second, 0.4.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_00: The thing is, though, I love light.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't shoot blue hour, I don't really shoot astro.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're shooting when there is light in the landscape, you very, very rarely need more than 0.4 seconds, even on a seascape or whatever.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so for that reason, it's like I just don't have any problems getting those images sharp.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: And then if you combine those techniques of slowing the breathing down, rest your body on something.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, sometimes when I'm teaching, someone will be trying the handheld and they might be holding it out in front of them.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, no, no, no, like at least put the camera to your eye, because that's a third point of stability.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_00: Two hands, and now you've got your face that have three points.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_00: Then if you rest up against the wall or you're sitting down, etc.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I've got shots where I've kind of kneeled down and one knee's going up, and I've just sat the camera on my knee to get the shot because I was just so solid sitting down like that with the knee up.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_00: I've got a 3.2 second shot that I'm processing now, waterfall scene, and I did the long exposure there because there was some foam in the foreground.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_00: And uh yeah, doing like 3.2 seconds and they're all tack sharp.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, again, you're just got it there in the moment, and you're not like battling like, where am I going to put this camera?
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's just I was down low, and I'm like, I'll just sit it here.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, oh sweet, that's perfect.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_00: Bang, got the shot and just kind of carried on.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_00: But in the past, I would just do an exposure blend there.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'll take a shot faster at say one tenth or one-eighth, and then I'll just slow it down to whatever you need, five seconds, and do that.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_00: And then in post, you can easily just blend the slower shutter in because you're just blending slow water with slower water, so there's no definitive lines there that you need to worry about.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_00: So that's how I did it in the past, but I feel like now the stability is so good on the these cameras it can get away with it.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_00: But definitely slowing the breathing.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_00: If it's cold, or if I've been flogging it up a hill and my heart rate's up, I can see the second I look through the viewfinder, I'm like, no, I've got to relax for a minute here.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_00: So it's exactly like shooting.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, like if you've tried hunting before or shooting a rifle, it's the exact same thing.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_00: If your heart rate is a bit too fast as you look through the scope, you'll literally see that movement in there.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, even recently when I was shooting, I was looking through the viewfinder and I knew straight away, I was like, I don't think the IBIS is on.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_00: I can see the movement coming through the viewfinder, like that small pulse in the hand.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure enough, the IBIS was off, which I actually have no idea how it got off because you've got to go into the menu and turn it off on these cameras.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_00: So that was a bit of a weird curveball there, which I've yeah, I've encountered that with a client's camera, but it happened to me as well.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_00: And that I actually had some shots that were ruined because I took them before I realized and got home and went, nah, they're actually the tiniest bit out, so I couldn't use them.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_00: But um, yeah, it definitely helps just to a few little key things need to come together.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I said earlier, it's not for everyone.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't have the right gear, if your hands are naturally shaky, then you'll struggle.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_00: But there's always ways around it.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like I said, a bit of exposure blending can always help.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: But that's why I just say, hey, it's just easy to get the tripod.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_00: You just get the tripod, mate, we'll get the shot, we'll carry on instead of you know trying to muck around doing it handheld.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_00: So but I've I've had a lot of people come along and they say, No, I want to try and go without the tripod because they just want to experience it.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_00: And then by day one, they're like, Yeah, that's it, no going back because they've got the right gear, they've got steady enough hands, and they just really enjoyed the freedom that it brought them in the field and how quick they could just move around, change composition, etc.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, definitely get a lot of people that come in like that and they leave with that new mindset.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, it's definitely not traditional, that's for sure.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's a completely different approach.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_04: I still this to this day have not used the iBus or the Steady Shot on any camera.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_04: Well, you can't with the long East Mode.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_04: No, it's pointless.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_04: Take it out of my cameras, don't need it.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting thing though, is like I've done just out of curiosity, I just blasted off like you know, 15 frames a tenth of a second, just put it in burst mode, bam, bam, bam, bam, bang, do it handheld, and then you can auto-align them, and then you can do the average blend in Photoshop, and it gives you you'd swear you had a 10-stop filter on as well.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_00: So it's quite interesting.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_00: Getting similar results by different methods is always yeah, it's cool.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's nice that you can do that in this day and age, even with Astro kind of not there yet.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_00: But I I reckon I'll be able to do some hand-held astro soon.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe by the time the next models get released, I'll be interested to try that because the noise reduction now in the software and the ISO performance is getting so good.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I reckon if you can do about two to four seconds without the tripod, which is kind of getting into that territory now, with the high ISO, then the noise reduction in posts, then yeah, you'd definitely be able to start doing some Milky Way or Aurora stuff uh entheld, which will be uh pretty crazy.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_01: But especially that'd be something unheard of, wouldn't it?
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_01: Milky Way without um without a tripod.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_01: It seems to be unheard of.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't that long ago.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_00: 2000, but like I feel like the ISO is one of the last things they will start really putting the effort into because they've pushed everything else so far, especially resolution stabilization, but the ISO performance is something that could always be better.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like imagine the day where you can do 102,000 ISO and it's printworthy as big as your wall.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I feel like definitely that'll be something the technology starts moving towards.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, you could just walk outside with ISO 25k, do a tenth of a second, and bang, now you've got the Milky Way, attack sharp, low noise.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_00: So it'd be interesting.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting to see.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'd even like it to go.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_00: And then you can do the stacking anyway to reduce the noise as well.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a few different ways you could go about it.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_00: But or you just get the tripod out with the tripod, but I don't know.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of I don't do astro much, so I feel like I I'm gonna do it a pretty fun.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_00: Just try and avoid the tripod still.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_00: Just because I'm being stubborn.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_01: Particularly if it's like just like real bad weather or like windy or something like that.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, cool, quickly get it, and then you then you'd be sweet without having to wait for the tripod flapping around on top of a mountain or something.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, for sure.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm keen.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_00: See what we can do.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_01: Camera companies, if anyone's listening, high ISO performance, bring it.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, bring it, people.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_04: But not just high ISO, low ISO, please.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_04: We want some lowers.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_04: We need we need we'll just make the high cleaner, so then it doesn't matter.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_01: We like that ISO six when you do it, you know.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that'll be good, yeah.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_04: Don't have to use a filter then, it'd be fantastic.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_04: That'd be fantastic.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_04: That's what are you talking about?
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_04: I do that already.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_04: No, but without filters.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_04: What what are some of the biggest challenges you are having currently in photography?
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_04: If if there are any.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um challenges.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_00: So personal photography or just oh, across the board, yeah, yeah, across the board.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um I would say uh I don't know if it's a challenge.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh okay, it probably is a challenge, probably not the right word, but um, I just feel like there's a lack of appreciation these days for what goes into uh not just photography, but any art.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_00: Just the it's a byproduct of how social media is where it's high consumption and um minimal thought and it's high consumption with minimal digestion.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_00: So you you all would have experienced it where you're just scrolling, people scrolling so quickly, looking for something to just satisfy you know the dopamine because everyone's on a pursuit for the next like high.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_00: So it's scroll, scroll, scroll, might see something.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_00: Oh wow, that looks good, and then keep scrolling.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_00: So the most you get in is maybe three seconds, someone looking at your image.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_00: We're all guilty of doing this, and that I like I don't see it's got to be at least 80, 90 percent of people looking at stuff like that now.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's just how it is.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_00: I can see it in YouTube analytics, how long people hang around a video for across the board, not just me, but for most people.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like the challenge now is um this is why I like YouTube, and I've really put a lot of time into my YouTube channel the last 12 months.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm actually enjoying not just going to create an image like I've done for the past 12, 13 years.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's one thing, and that's really enjoyable, and I love doing that.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_00: But now I'm actually enjoying saying, you know what, can I try and document this?
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_00: I don't care if how rough looks the footage, but I want people to come with me now.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to just go out here in the forest alone.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna bring the camera, the GoPro.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_00: I want to film and tell them what I'm trying to do.
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_00: I want them to see the highs and the lows and the planning and the funny parts and the fails.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_00: And then I want them to see how I actually made it, that I was hanging from the tree or this or that, whatever it is.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_00: Therefore, I feel like when they see the final image now, it's like, hi uh man, like that it resonates a bit more.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_00: People um back in the day, the classic one was the landscape photographer that would put 12 paragraphs on how he got up at three o'clock, he lugged a tripod up a mountain.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_00: And hey, we've all done that, right?
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_00: But the problem with those long paragraphs is one, no one's reading it.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_00: And two, when they do read it, it just sounds like you're just, you know, you're trying to flex.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_00: I got up at three, I walked in the snow.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately, just again, the byproduct of social media, it's like that just doesn't click with anyone, they're not reading it.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_00: But if you have the footage there and they come along and they're like, man, that wow, that was so I feel like the challenge now is how do we make, how do we give people that experience that kind of existed before social media where you'd look at a print and go, wow, and you're looking at it and you're absorbing it?
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_00: How do we keep our viewers?
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_00: Because ultimately, like we're photographers, we're sharing our photography.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_00: So we're we're you can't say we don't want people to see our work.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's why we're sharing it, right?
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_00: So how do I make sure that when someone looks at the photo that they're kind of just spending more than a few seconds, or at least they're getting a greater appreciation for what went into it?
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, Instagram, for example, is pushing reels heavily, like just anything video related.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not interested in short form video because again, I just feel like that's not doing good for people's attention span.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's just making it worse.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, my YouTube is kind of an opportunity, it's just something I'm really enjoying now because it's more satisfying for me, even though the people that view that is significantly less than other platforms.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_00: At least I know that the ones that are viewing it actually care.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of quality over quantity.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_00: You could have 150,000 Instagram followers, but if 95% of them are 12 years old or they're just browsing so fast and not reading anything, they don't even know who I am, they don't know anything about me, they just happen to be following me.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't mean anything at the end of the day.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd rather have a smaller amount of people invested in me as an individual, me as a professional, me as a family man, um, going far out.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's cool.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_00: I get to see what the location better now.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_00: They can hear it, they can experience it.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I have no aspiration to be a videographer.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_00: I've actually employed a videographer for a while for my YouTube channel because I don't want to try and go down that road.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_00: I want to concentrate on the steels, but I do enjoy just the whole process of saying, oh, how can I make this photo a bit more immersive now, a bit more substance to it than what the other platforms are providing.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, long-winded answer.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_00: But I feel like the challenge is how do we make our artwork um appreciated to the extent that it should be?
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not just photography on saying for all art, you know, it's just a shame that we just consume this stuff so fast and without even going, hang on, man, like someone spent hours painting that or weeks or months, and you've given it a double tap and gone cool and moved on and never thought about it again.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's just that's a shame.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's and I'm not pick I'm not picking on anyone because we all do it, but it's just uh it's frustrating.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'd rather turn out less work and just you know, document all of it and do it that way than just keep throwing stuff on Instagram just for the sake of feeding an algorithm.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_00: So it's pretty much it's funny because sorry for that long answer.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's right.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's a massive, it is a massive challenge.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like just last year, man, it was like you see reels, like the regular length that someone would watch would be 10 seconds, and now that's down to six seconds.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_01: So like it it was like 30 seconds a year ago, right?
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_01: And then like it's like dramatically decreasing so quickly.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_01: So either people are uh what I'd say sickest short form video because it is like all their attention spans now so diminished because of this constant what's the next opening?
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_01: What's the next dopamine?
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_01: What's the next?
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's like reading about a restaurant scanning for that thing that jumps off the menu.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_00: So when you're scrolling social, it's just waiting.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_00: So when your reel comes up, they're giving it three, four, five seconds.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_00: Is it gonna satisfy me?
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_00: No, move on, move on, move on.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_00: And that's just so soul crushing, right?
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's just at least on something like YouTube, like it's there to be long form.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they've got shorts on there, but the long form stuff, if people are following you on there, they're there to watch the long form.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously, you still have retention drop-offs on YouTube as well.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_00: But at least you know that, man, at least they're gonna watch it.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas the other platforms don't even give that stuff a chance, or your followers just don't care about it anyway.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_00: They just happen to be following you for various other reasons.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a challenge, man.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's just a shame, really.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I just hope, I hope that in the years to come there is still an appreciation for still photography.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I think the biggest asset that we have as landscape photographers is that we're photographing real places.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the places that I go to, they're real.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like, and especially a YouTube video can show you how real this is, and that's something that can't be replaced by anything else.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so people will probably grow tired of just the high consumption of, you know, funny videos and AI art where it's just completely fabricated from scratch.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, at least showing people, hey, this is real nature here, this was the real moments in time.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like there's something there that will actually get more appealing because people probably hopefully slowly start turning away a little from this high digital consumption, which surely has to.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm already seeing a revolt a little bit, like people deleting stuff off phones.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I've been doing that for years.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_00: I just have a detox.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so I feel like at least with landscape photography, if you're adhering to photographing real places, that's pretty appealing because it's kind of refreshing in a world where we don't know what's literally real.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_00: Is that a real person?
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_00: You don't even know what if it's a real person commenting, right?
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, what's a robot, what's not.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like that's one big asset there that, and even as a workshop host, it's like, hey, I can take you to these places, I can get you away from this digital space here, all this noise come out into the real world.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I think there's a big draw card there.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I just hope that, yeah, in the future that is still something that's valued.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I can see it going two ways.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_00: It will either go up in value because everyone is gonna just revolt against this digital era, or it could go the other way where it just completely no one's interested because they're so consumed by the digital.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_00: So it'll be interesting to see how it unfolds.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, it's an interesting time.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's been crazy to watch it all evolve over the years because I picked up the camera in 2011 right at the the birth of Instagram, really.
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I've been here for that whole journey and just slowly watching it evolve, and even my usage of it all change over the years, and yeah, I it's hard to fathom what it's going to be like in a few more years because it just keeps changing so quickly.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_04: So talking about future and appreciation for the art of photography and artists in general.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_04: Have you ever thought about um opening up like a gallery and showing off your prints?
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_04: Because your prints do look fantastic, like in person.
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_04: I've seen a couple, I've been lucky to see a couple.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_04: Um, would you ever in open up a gallery in Tianow?
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_04: Because it's a great spot.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_04: You get to show off your artwork in person and you get to show off the land that you love.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, mate.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um there's a gallery here that has like just some local artists, like a mixed artist, and we I put some stuff in there, um, which is nice, and that just ticks away and sells in the back end.
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_00: And it's cool because uh it's a gallery, so they take a commission, but I have no obligation to be there, I don't have to worry about it.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_00: You just drop the artworks off and walk away.
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_00: I've definitely toyed with the idea of a gallery.
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_00: I made it's just like look at the pandemic, for example, where you know the income stopped, I had a mortgage, I got family to feed.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_00: And if I had a gallery on top of that, like the lease for the gallery would just be so stressful.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_00: So look, I'm I probably would lean more towards doing a book at this stage.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, definitely back and forth with that over the last year or two.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_00: And that would be more for more selfish reasons, just to actually get a history of some of these photographs that I've made and my personal memories just put in print um to be a bit more than just sitting on a screen.
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then maybe making a mini documentary to complement that the making of the book so the DOCO could showcase making some of the images.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'd think of the most difficult images I could make and then try and, you know, put that into the documentary, like, oh, we're gonna try and line the moon up outside this, you know, something ridiculous.
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_00: I try to think through some really hard stuff.
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_00: So that'd be a real that inspires me.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_00: The the part that comes in though is the business mind where you say, okay, that's all well and good, but how do you dedicate the time to make that book, make that documentary, or if it was gallery, for example, um, how does it work from a business perspective where I'm not now, you know, losing money and now I'm struggling to pay the bills.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that therein lies the challenge.
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like a gallery is a real tough call these days.
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's just because of that whole digital era that we've been speaking about, there is a market for it.
• 1:03:04
  SPEAKER_00: But I feel like it's more actually a higher-end market now where it's people that have a high disposable income and they're happy to go, yeah, I'm gonna throw X amount of dollars because I just want this on my wall just as a flex.
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas a decade ago and beyond, it was more, you're just everyone wanted a print.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_00: It was more affordable, and the only way to look at artwork was to go buy the print, the Ken Duncan print or whoever.
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_00: You didn't have social media, so you couldn't look at these places.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I feel like it's done at 180 now, where it's like the the everyday person, most people now they can't afford the artwork or they're just not interested because they can go to Kmart, they can spend 10 bucks and get a huge, you know, pretty cool-looking artwork on the wall for 10 bucks from Kmart or wherever.
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_00: They don't need to spend hundreds of dollars on this, you know, photographer or someone they follow.
• 1:03:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like at least a book is it's a bit different.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's so different to just the one off print.
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like from a business mind, don't get me wrong, if I could, I'd have a gallery for sure, it'd be awesome.
• 1:04:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'd get staff in there, it'd be awesome.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_00: But I just from a business perspective, and even where I live in the winter, it it gets pretty quiet here.
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_00: The tourism drops right off.
• 1:04:09
  SPEAKER_00: So then I'm like, all right, in summer you'd probably tick away just fine.
• 1:04:13
  SPEAKER_00: In the winter, it'd be quiet.
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_00: So do you want to close the doors?
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_00: And that just starts to get a bit too complicated.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, anyway, definitely thought about it, man.
• 1:04:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love to, but I feel like it's just not the right place or time to be trying to sell artworks and selling it so you can actually, you know, provide pay for staff and a lease a place and all that.
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe a book, man.
• 1:04:37
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely a book.
• 1:04:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's just less overhead.
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I could probably just fit that into the current schedule a little bit better.
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, watch your space there.
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm definitely keen for the book.
• 1:04:47
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like it's calling me and I can't keep pushing it back.
• 1:04:50
  SPEAKER_01: It'll be a pretty decent book, man, because you have a collection, you know, going for the wazoo.
• 1:04:56
  SPEAKER_01: Even picking them out, just picking out a 200-page book, you'll have trouble, I think, because you've got so much work.
• 1:05:02
  SPEAKER_00: Man, because I look back at so much, leading things from like you have that stuff that you really go, yeah, that's that's something to hang on to forever.
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_00: But there is still a lot that I'm like, nah, I don't really like what I did there.
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_00: I just feel like every year I'm still evolving as a photographer.
• 1:05:18
  SPEAKER_00: So uh there's not too like, yeah, my portfolio is still too big.
• 1:05:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'd have to cull back a lot, but yeah, I don't know.
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_00: I still feel like I would almost struggle with a book to get stuff I was truly happy with.
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, I'm not sure.
• 1:05:29
  SPEAKER_00: You've been too much.
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_03: You've been too much, mate.
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's always if it's your work, you're always more critical.
• 1:05:35
  SPEAKER_01: Well, mine's not how it is.
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_00: You're critical you're critical.
• 1:05:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like, is that really the best I can do?
• 1:05:39
  SPEAKER_00: Should I go redo it better now?
• 1:05:41
  SPEAKER_00: Or yeah, be I'd like to just get the book to get some old stuff in there.
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_00: So like the his the kind of the early years, just some of the the lightning photos I've got at Cathedral Rocks, just images that really mean a lot to me.
• 1:05:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and just some of that early stuff, and then yeah, show the the the pre the first up until now.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_00: Just moving to NZ and even put some stories in there, like backstories behind specific photos that actually have, you know, an interesting backstory to them, obviously.
• 1:06:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, a little bit of personal stuff in there, just a part of the journey.
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_00: So it wouldn't just be photos, it'd be cool just to just get the history of everything down in a book.
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_00: And then moving forward, I'd love to do a book purely concentrated on Fiordland.
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_00: I just don't feel like I could do that for the first book.
• 1:06:24
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like the first one would have to be a bit of a bit of everything, but then I'd love to be able to go, all right, I've got that one out of the way.
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, it's just those unknowns.
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_00: I just don't know.
• 1:06:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's not cheap to produce 500 books, you know.
• 1:06:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's you're tens of thousands of dollars and the the time and the stress and yes.
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_00: I talked myself out of it pretty easily.
• 1:06:45
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know, man.
• 1:06:45
  SPEAKER_04: I I think I think you're being too modest here.
• 1:06:47
  SPEAKER_04: I think with like a not not blowing smoke up your ass or anything like that, but I think you wouldn't have an issue selling a book or selling a collection.
• 1:06:55
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know.
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard to say.
• 1:06:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think so, but I just don't know.
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what the industry, the market's like with that stuff now.
• 1:07:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure.
• 1:07:03
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'd buy a lot of things.
• 1:07:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that means a lot, mate.
• 1:07:09
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I need.
• 1:07:09
  SPEAKER_00: I need a few people to give me some confidence.
• 1:07:11
  SPEAKER_04: So don't we all though?
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_04: Don't we all?
• 1:07:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I guess I guess if you went down the road of I think if if you did do something along fjord land, yeah, you could really market it into like the tourism section of that.
• 1:07:24
  SPEAKER_01: Even though like a lot of things you do shoot uh maybe aren't so much touristy.
• 1:07:29
  SPEAKER_01: You could if you get into that, I reckon that would be an international type of book that could send everywhere.
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, because I've I know other people that you know, I think Scott Mago, for example, with his Australia book.
• 1:07:43
  SPEAKER_01: He was saying that book is like probably one of the biggest successes he's ever had.
• 1:07:49
  SPEAKER_01: He says it he goes to China and everything like all the time.
• 1:07:52
  SPEAKER_00: So and it's yeah, that's it.
• 1:07:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's getting that right connection with people that can help promote it as well.
• 1:07:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's the other factor.
• 1:08:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a definitely a few avenues for sure.
• 1:08:03
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, but I mean, yeah, I I I honestly think that your work speaks for itself, mate.
• 1:08:08
  SPEAKER_04: So I think if you were to do a book, and I'm not like I said, I'm not here to pump anyone up, but yeah, I think it it would do well.
• 1:08:15
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I have a feeling it would, because your your art speaks for itself, and and so I reckon it would tell itself.
• 1:08:22
  SPEAKER_04: I'll I'll hold you accountable.
• 1:08:24
  SPEAKER_04: You can you can do that.
• 1:08:26
  SPEAKER_04: I'll you I'll come over there and you can you can fight me over it.
• 1:08:30
  SPEAKER_00: We're pretty much uh like I kinda had the point with my wife where we're like, all right, we're gonna just get some quotes, you know, just get the ball rolling on it.
• 1:08:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's we're gone, I think we did last year, and then we just kind of let it fizz out.
• 1:08:41
  SPEAKER_00: So um, yeah, I've kind of even a few weeks ago, I was like, oh, let's pick it up again and just we'll get the ball rolling on it.
• 1:08:47
  SPEAKER_00: So um yeah, I'll I'll definitely keep posted.
• 1:08:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah it's just just seems like a daunting process.
• 1:08:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I need to it's it's another step, isn't it?
• 1:08:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's just a whole different world, you know, doing a book and the layout, and yeah, it's just a lot of unknowns.
• 1:09:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm keen.
• 1:09:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's funny, like when I first started doing this full time, I was just running workshops and that's it.
• 1:09:05
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, years later, it's like you just keep tacking more and more on.
• 1:09:09
  SPEAKER_00: And but back in the day I thought thought it was so busy.
• 1:09:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then now I'm doing more than ever, and you still feel like you could even do a bit more.
• 1:09:17
  SPEAKER_00: You just kind of develop like you get accustomed to a certain work threshold, and then you're like, oh no, okay, let's do another challenge, let's do another one.
• 1:09:24
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I feel like we're probably getting to that point now where even though I'm doing just as many workshops and ever, I'm doing all this online stuff as well.
• 1:09:32
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm like, oh no, I feel like I'm kind of getting that into a comfortable rhythm.
• 1:09:36
  SPEAKER_00: So let's I'm looking for that next challenge.
• 1:09:38
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, we'll see.
• 1:09:42
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, we're we're really kicking on here.
• 1:09:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what's next for you, Will?
• 1:09:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like, where are you headed in the next like six months, one year?
• 1:09:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um look, pretty steady just in the current routine.
• 1:09:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm I have no aspirations to really run, teach anywhere outside of NZ and Australia.
• 1:10:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'd like to come back to Oz next year and do some coastal stuff again.
• 1:10:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that that'll be good.
• 1:10:08
  SPEAKER_00: But like I've given, I don't like doing Iceland anymore, Patagonia, Canada, places where I went to early on in the career.
• 1:10:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I've made a bit of a definitive point at this point in my career to more or less say that my photography is New Zealand, Australasia, right?
• 1:10:24
  SPEAKER_00: Australia, New Zealand, primarily New Zealand.
• 1:10:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm kind of happy really dedicating my photography to this region.
• 1:10:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I don't want to be just another guy that goes to all the hotspots and, you know, I don't have a connection to those countries.
• 1:10:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the first few years I was so excited to go there and I've had great times there and had to blast teaching and memorable, memorable moments with clients.
• 1:10:47
  SPEAKER_00: But I've really just found like, you know what, I'm most passionate about down here, obviously where I live, and said, but even still Australia, I'm still passionate about Oz.
• 1:10:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, I think the future just holds just continually doing what I'm doing.
• 1:11:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm actually in the process of pulling the trigger on going to a part of Australia I haven't been to before and doing some photography there.
• 1:11:10
  SPEAKER_00: I won't say where it is yet because I haven't committed to it, but it'll just be something a bit different to what I've done.
• 1:11:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I haven't seen many, too many other people photograph this area.
• 1:11:18
  SPEAKER_00: So that kind of inspires me.
• 1:11:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then hopefully, if all goes well um and getting permits and everything, and being able to run some workshops at this particular spot.
• 1:11:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess like in short, yeah, just continually just trying to keep, you know, creating more images, images that I'm happy with and feel like it's slightly raising the bar and showcasing something different, whether that's in NZ or Australia.
• 1:11:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's kind of the goal, really.
• 1:11:42
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, hopefully sharing that with people along the way, whether it's in person or in a workshop on YouTube or sharing still images online.
• 1:11:51
  SPEAKER_00: And then, hey, chipping away the book, I guess ultimately.
• 1:11:53
  SPEAKER_00: Let's just add that into the mix as well.
• 1:11:55
  SPEAKER_01: So long-term goals now.
• 1:11:57
  SPEAKER_01: Long-term goals.
• 1:11:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost rinse and repeat, really.
• 1:12:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:12:01
  SPEAKER_04: Hey, if it works, why why why change it on, bro?
• 1:12:04
  SPEAKER_01: Nah, like thanks for coming on the show today, Will.
• 1:12:06
  SPEAKER_01: We really appreciate it.
• 1:12:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's great catching up with you again.
• 1:12:09
  SPEAKER_04: It's been a while, and uh, we would have loved to have done it in person, but unfortunately, it didn't work out.
• 1:12:13
  SPEAKER_04: But hey, well, when you get back here, we'll we'll we'll go hang out, go for a coffee or something if you have time.
• 1:12:19
  SPEAKER_04: But but again, yeah, thank thanks for joining us.
• 1:12:22
  SPEAKER_04: Really, really appreciate it.
• 1:12:23
  SPEAKER_04: And your work is outstanding, mate.
• 1:12:25
  SPEAKER_04: And don't let anyone else or your your mind tell you otherwise.
• 1:12:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we'll grab all the links off you where you want people to go.
• 1:12:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, we'll put all that in the show notes for everyone to connect with your work and maybe you might get some more customers out of it as well.
• 1:12:38
  SPEAKER_01: They can come back to 228.
• 1:12:44
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate it, guys.
• 1:12:45
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks again, mate.
• 1:12:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's good for the podcast.
• 1:12:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's great.
• 1:12:47
  SPEAKER_04: And thanks everybody for listening.
• 1:12:49
  SPEAKER_04: We truly appreciate it.
• 1:12:50
  SPEAKER_04: And please head on over to William's work.
• 1:12:52
  SPEAKER_04: He's outstanding, and you will never see work like this from Fjordland in New Zealand.
• 1:12:58
  SPEAKER_04: Simply amazing.
• 1:12:59
  SPEAKER_04: Thanks for listening, and we'll catch you on our next episode.