Latest / Master Your Yoga Teaching with MaKenzie Fly / How to Plan, Sell & Lead Profitable Yoga Retreats w/ Karol De Souza
Transcript
- karoline: then the more retreats that I started hosting, I realized like, okay, well, it's getting a little bit hard to only gather the people who know you personally. Like, how am I gonna MaKenzie Fly: Mm. karoline: expand that more if I actually wanna to make this my own own gig MaKenzie Fly: Mm-hmm. karoline: or my main gig, how am I gonna get enough people to fill my retreats? And that's when the entire journey of learning how to market yourself, like learning how to show up on Instagram and all these skills that you end up acquiring that well you didn't quite sign up for in the first place, but it's kind of MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. karoline: part of it. MaKenzie Fly: What's up, everybody, and welcome back to MYYT, where you are learning to level up your yoga teaching one masterful class at a time. If you're dreaming about hosting a yoga retreat someday before you book the dreamy villa and start planning your morning flows, there are a few things that you should know. Today's guest, Carol, has hosted more than 25 retreats around the world and built retreats into the primary revenue stream of her business. And in this conversation, we're pulling back. The curtain on what it actually takes to make retreats work. Not just as an incredible experience for your students, but as a sustainable business for you. Specifically, we talk about things like why teaching yoga might actually be the smallest and easiest part of hosting a yoga retreat, the work beneath the work, and why your retreat needs to offer something deeper than yoga, breath work, and a pretty destination. How to find the bigger transformation your retreat is actually selling and weave it through the entire experience. How Carol can sometimes fill half a retreat before officially opening enrollment? Why only about 20% of her retreat bookings come directly from Instagram? And why relying entirely on social media can make selling feel so damn hard. Are yoga retreats actually profitable? Carol and I share real numbers from our most profitable retreats and the ones where we basically broke even. Why the fanciest retreat venue isn't always Or necessarily the smartest business decision and how your overhead can make or break your profit. The difference between hosting a retreat and building an actual retreat business ecosystem, the very real behind the scenes of hosting retreats while raising babies, and why the Instagram version doesn't always show the beautiful chaos, deposits, cash flow, collaborators, partnerships, refund policies, plus some of the less sexy business decisions you need to think about before. Booking that dream location. If hosting a retreat has been sitting on your yoga teacher bucket list, or you've already hosted one and thought, holy smokes, that was way more than I expected. This episode is going to give you a much clearer picture of what it actually takes to plan, sell, lead, and actually profit from the retreats. I know you were going to love this one, so turn it up and let's dive in. Carol De Souza is a retreat leader, mentor, and founder of She Rises Mastermind. magnetic retreats mastermind She has been guiding women through movement, mindfulness, and transformation for almost a decade. Since 2017, she has taught and hosted retreats around the globe that don't just offer an escape, but create real lasting change. Carol has lived the shift from burnout to freedom. From endless classes to scalable retreats and online mentorship. And that was why her coaching was born from lived experience and a burning desire to help other fellow yoga teachers and wellness coaches to build a sustainable way of life where their business supports them, not drains them. Today, her retreats and programs are spaces of sisterhood, leadership, and embodied power designed for women, ready to rise into their next chapter. Welcome to the podcast, Carol. I am so happy that you are here and we did it. We did it. karoline: Yeah, thank you. Thank you for having me. I feel completely honored to be here. MaKenzie Fly: well it is an honor to have you and to to to finally speak with you. It's been a long time coming. We've been communicating and chatting for everybody listening. I hit up Carol's DMs probably what, like five months ago, maybe? Yeah. karoline: Last year. No, I think even last year, wasn't it? I don't know, maybe I'm mistaken. I think it was probably somewhere in the chaos of motherhood. And I was like, MaKenzie Fly: Yes, yes. karoline: I don't think this is a good time. MaKenzie Fly: Which if like like I said earlier, if anybody understands, I understand. We both have two young littles. You're you're you have a boy, right? A little boy. karoline: Yeah, I have a boy. He's one year and five months. MaKenzie Fly: such a sweet special time. I mean, all of it has its pros and cons, of course, all of the eras and the seasons. But I get it. I have, you know, two little boys, and we are both, like you said, in the thick of motherhood, and it is just a circus and chaotic. So I totally understand, but I have been excited to speak with you since then. So I'm really glad that we're to the point where we can finally sit down and I can pick your brain about all of the amazing things that you have done. So firstly, just wanted to say thank you, especially for jumping on the podcast, but also just everything that you share online and social media. You are so helpful and very generous with what you offer and speak about and teach about for retreats. So just thank you. karoline: Thank you. Thank you. I was like, MaKenzie Fly: Yeah, yeah. karoline: you were reading it and I like, who wrote that text? Who is this girl? MaKenzie Fly: You're like, she sounds impressive. karoline: Exactly. I was like, is that me? MaKenzie Fly: Yes. And that I like reading the bios to the guests for that reason because I think we forget how cool we are. And to have that reflected back to us sometimes is such a gift. And we don't often, when we're in the weeds of doing our work, we don't have that outsider perspective that other people do. So I'm glad that you had that feeling because you are really cool. You've done you've done amazing things and you're doing something that a lot of yoga teachers want to do. In a way that is spacious enough for you to still have a family, which I think is the tricky part. Yeah. karoline: Mhm. I think it's it's just like it's been such a long journey that you forget where you actually came from. And MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. Mm-hmm. karoline: that was not I mean, if you think of life, that was not that long ago. MaKenzie Fly: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And how quickly things can change. Well, it is only 8 a.m. for me. I'm streaming from Vegas and you're in Lisbon, right? You're in Portugal and it's later in karoline: Yeah. MaKenzie Fly: the afternoon. How's your day going so far? karoline: It was yeah, it was it's been a really nice day. Gotta got to go to the beach with my family this morning and MaKenzie Fly: Mm. karoline: did some class recordings, some mails and I'm here now and it's four PM. MaKenzie Fly: Yeah, yeah. And your son is sleeping, he's napping, and we're hoping that we karoline: Yeah. MaKenzie Fly: can squeeze in this whole conversation while that happens, but we might have some additional guests and children coming in to say hello. How I guess let's begin if we're discussing today within this episode the big topic of retreat facilitation and building potentially a business around retreats. Can we start with how to really run and lead and guide? From the teaching perspective, retreats that stand out or that are above and beyond. And I know that successful is a little bit subjective because everybody's definition of that is differently or different, but what would you say from the actual teaching standpoint makes a retreat extra special or makes a retreat stick out and be memorable from the participants that came on that retreat? karoline: First of all, I I I thought it was worth mentioning that there is a big difference like between being a yoga teacher and then transferring all that knowledge from the class into hosting retreats because these are very different skills. And I think that's like when you're making that transition in like, okay, I've got like this incredible group of people. I love like teaching classes, I love my students. and I like it's every yoga teacher feels like that's the natural next step they want to take. They want to start hosting retreats. And then they come into like this crossroads. They're kind of like, okay, well, this is a completely different thing. Like there's so much involved. Like there is marketing, there is selling, there's like the logistics. And you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait there. Like I don't have all this skill. So that's one thing. And the other part is like actually building retreats that are really Rooted on something that's actually, it's a bit weird to say that, but it's something that goes a bit beyond selling yoga. Because I mean, there is something about your work, about your lived experience that goes beyond yoga. Yoga is one tool that you use to teach that, but that's not actually the entire picture. And so grasping that essence of What you're here to do, like what's your life mission? And sure, you're a yoga teacher, you love yoga, you love teaching postures, but there's something that is like a little bit more deep than that. MaKenzie Fly: Mm-hmm. karoline: Like that's very related to your story, like how yoga changed your life, where you're at, how you used yoga to shift things for you. But not just something that happens in the past, but how you embody this every MaKenzie Fly: Mm. karoline: single day, how that shapes your life. And maybe, you know, you decide to include other tools like breath work. I also do like ecstatic dancing in my retreats, and we use like intuitive painting. And these are all different tools that I use to Convey that bigger message that for me is like helping women to move from control to trust and to ultimately achieve like the transformation that's there. Like, you know, what is it to live a life in which you can trust yourself more, that you can trust life more, that you can trust this inner knowing more, but basically. This is like if I was to take out like all of these tools, including yoga, out of the equation, I could still be teaching that. And I MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. karoline: think that's like the the biggest differential in communicating what your retreat is about and then attracting the people who are meant for your work rather than what I see a lot and what clients come To me and I ask them, okay, what's your retreat about? And then they immediately start listening, listening, listing. I teach NyasaFlow, and then there is the breath work, and then we do some journaling, and they immediately start telling me what's in their schedule. And that's exactly the way they're communicating what's their retreat on their socials, on their emails, and their sales page. And I'm like, sure, that's good. We want to talk about this. But so is Susie and whoever else saying the exact same thing. So why you and why you're retreat? MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. karoline: And I think that's when that n other thing, like the actual essence of your work comes in, rather MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. karoline: than communicating it just like what you teach in the actual yoga classes, like everything that's happening in the in-between as well. MaKenzie Fly: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's so good. I often in my mastermind, the business building mastermind, we talk about this a lot too of not selling the logistics. Like, don't do the logistics first and don't list your features. And that the people, you want to paint a future for them before you talk about the features. They're just not quite ready to hear the like how exactly it's going down until they're emotionally bought into something. So when you're talking about Telling the story of the time in your life when you really felt like you were, what was the phrase like from something to trust? What was yeah, karoline: From control to trust. MaKenzie Fly: from control, like describing this time period in your life when you felt really like the need to control everything and the way that was making you feel. And then some of the things that you did differently to come out of that, and now experiencing the result of being more trusting of your life, being more in the flow. It's like that's the, that's the thing that's gonna be somebody's gonna resonate with of you sharing your story. And that being the, I would call it like the theme, probably the theme of the retreat that then can infuse into all those individual experiences that you do end up teaching on the retreat, like you said. So this is, this is key because that's the backbone, that's the spine of the retreat when it comes to the marketing and the messaging to sell it and promote it, but also the activities that then you weave into the itinerary. karoline: To really support that transformation. Because you're like, MaKenzie Fly: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. karoline: yeah, we're doing yoga, but we're also doing this, that, and that, and that and that. Like, how are we going to support like this work that you're doing? Like, I call it the work beneath the work. Because MaKenzie Fly: Mm-hmm. karoline: we always think the work, like, the work is we're gonna do yoga, but like, okay, what's underneath that? Right. MaKenzie Fly: Yeah, yeah, yeah. karoline: and so yeah, like how can we? find a way to support that ultimate transformation, like with yoga, like with how you choose to teach, like when you're teaching, like what you choose to bring to the table, the things that you say that will connect back to that point. you know, if you're doing journaling or if you're doing breath work or if you're doing whatever else you're doing, psychedelics, I don't know. like how are you going to connect back to that? Like everything has a reason for being it that way. And even like as you think of day one, day two, like there is a way in which things are done so you can ultimately deliver that thing. Like what's the before the retreat and how people are going to feel and experience that retreat in the end like the the end day, let's say like the last day, right? MaKenzie Fly: This probably would have been a better question before the one that I actually asked. But what has been your journey as far as stepping into a r like being a retreat leader and doing retreats multiple times a year as the main part of your business? How did you get started in this? And I guess from the first retreat that you ran to now, what learnings and takeaways have you had from just running so many? So that's multiple questions, but I would love to know those things. karoline: Okay. So first of all, I started teaching yoga by volunteering and traveling around the world and working in a lot of retreat retreat spaces. kind of like yeah, just kind of either surf yoga camp vibes or whatever. So y sometimes big groups of like 30 people. So I was actually thrown into the teaching part of like teaching big classes of 30 people straight away, very fresh from yoga school. So that was an experience. I remember being very nervous about that. but I learned very early in my because I I think a lot of people will maybe start teaching like more locally, maybe in their local studio. And actually that wasn't really my my track. Like actually I started teaching in studios much later. And that was never my main gig. I was always teaching like in like this retreat kind of spaces. And so I got experience with that in the very early stages of my teaching career. and then of course, like that was already in the back of my mind, like, that's something I really would love to do, especially because I had this entire journey for a really long time with food disorder. And I've studied like not just yoga, but I traveled the world and and like study a lot of other things as well that kind of like helped me in this, let's say, healing journey, because it really is a journey. Like if People out there listening have somebody close to them who has had a food disorder. If they had a food disorder themselves, the yeah, healing is not something like, six months time. It's like it takes years of your life. And so, yeah, that created, of course, like a lot of anxiety as well. And I was in the like in the middle of Also studying yoga and like studying other like tools. I've studied like I did my master's in NLP, and yeah, of course, did therapy for a really long time as well. So these are all things that really fascinated me. And I wanted to put all of this together into one experience, and that's how I started hosting the retreats. Basically, two people who knew me personally who had taken classes with me in retreat spaces before, like not my own retreat spaces, but just kind of like after that, kind of kept following along your journey on Instagram and Captain Touch. And I remember my very first retreat. I had like seven people. I think six people were already my students and then one person was kind of like a referral from somebody. And then was kind of went like that, like first year hosting one retreat, second year two retreats, and then third year, then the more retreats that I started hosting, I realized like, okay, well, it's getting a little bit hard to only gather the people who know you personally. Like, how am I gonna MaKenzie Fly: Mm. karoline: expand that more if I actually wanna to make this my own own gig MaKenzie Fly: Mm-hmm. karoline: or my main gig, how am I gonna get enough people to fill my retreats? And that's when the entire journey of like learning how to market yourself, like learning how to show up on Instagram and all these skills that you end up acquiring that well you didn't quite sign up for in the first place, but it's kind MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. karoline: of part of it. and so yeah, that was the the entire journey of learning all these skills to eventually build something that is sustainable, that I don't feel like every retreat is like. such a struggle to feel and like really an emotional roller coaster, let's be honest, because it can MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. karoline: be. And I mean, I think it's like that's how I've I see myself as a retreat leader in a very different way than I was like a few years ago. I think at some point sometimes, and I see that from my clients as well, you start Attaching yourself in a way like your self-worth to how many spots you're able to sell in your retreat. If you have a full retreat, great, I'm doing a great job. I'm such an incredible teacher. You have this one retreat that doesn't feel the way you expected, and then you're kind of like, my god, you start questioning your entire life, like maybe I'm not meant for this. And it's just really like something that is so draining and it's not sustainable. And so I think one of the big parts of for me, like mentoring, sure, like the strategy and this and that, and like how to market yourself, how to fill your retreats, and like how to create a system that kind of like works for you. But there is so much more than that. And I actually made a post about this today because I have this one client, she's been with me for like three months. It's she's hosting her very first retreat. And obviously she wanted to sell out. And like from everything that we see on the internet, it just feels like, okay, I'm gonna do this one thing and it's just gonna sell out, you know, like something that is just MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. karoline: like happen from your very first retreat. And so, anyways, I think the biggest work that we did together and the way I saw her growing in these three months, it was kind of like seeing. Like seeing the way that she was actually helping people, like I don't think she had like an entire full vision of that. And like being able to trust herself, creating more skills as like a retreat leader, like being able to make hard decisions, like so many other things that I'm so proud of her, and she's so proud of herself also. Even though she's not like the the most beautiful success story that you want to post on Instagram, you know, you know, I sold out my retreat in three months. Like it wasn't like that, but she's not disappointed about that. And I'm like, that's amazing. Like that's the biggest win, you know. and MaKenzie Fly: Like changing the changing the experience is the way more important, you know, like maintaining that emotional mastery and not hating the process is the biggest win, you know, more than the flashy numbers things is like responding to that situation and not losing your equanimity or your s sense of self, I think is like so important. karoline: Mm-hmm. MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. karoline: Because I mean, Mackenzie, let's be honest. Like I've been hosting retreats for a long time and I've hosted more than 25 retreats. And some of my retreats sell really fast. And some of my retreats take a bit longer. And some of them don't sell out even after hosting retreats for so many years. After having like I have this incredible community that, you know, some of the people who have been on retreats with me come back. every year, like that's their yearly thing. and sometimes your retreat is not gonna sell and I'm not gonna break my head over it. And so you MaKenzie Fly: Yeah, yeah. karoline: need to learn the skill of holding space for that discomfort as well and not making it about you. And that's like that's a skill that we don't talk about enough MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. karoline: because that that's business and that that is life. It's not like there's one linear thing, you know, it's like it's an alive thing. And so MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. karoline: just like with anything else in business, you know, sometimes things are gonna work out and sometimes it's not gonna work out the way you expected. You, you know, you get feedback, you change things, and you move on. MaKenzie Fly: Mm. karoline: And so, by the way, her retreat is happening. She has enough people to make the retreat happen. That's her very first retreat. And yeah, she sent an incredible message, and that's the reason why I'm sharing this with you. MaKenzie Fly: That's awesome. That is awesome. And I think that it's so important, and why it's so good to hear from someone like you who has hosted 25. When you have more experiences and more data to look at, you can see the average. Whereas most people have hosted, you know, maybe they could count on one hand. And therefore, the data seems really drastic because there's not that much. And so when you have more to look at, there's like more. the fluctuations aren't quite as, you know, intense on either end. And I think that that that helps you remain, like keep your equanimity and remain calm and to also see that it's not always you. There's so much at play, whether it's the timing or the location and and all of this. And that that really is so important to have done it more often, to to feel, you know, less like it's less of a personal karoline: It's a learning curve. Yeah, it's a learning curve. Yeah. And it's a confounding MaKenzie Fly: Yeah, and like like it's less of a personal attack. Yeah. Y you mentioned karoline: thing also. Like it's MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. karoline: something it's a muscle that you get to practice, obviously. MaKenzie Fly: Yeah, a hundred percent. You had mentioned, and I think this is so important, that the second you decide to plan a retreat, it is so much more like you are acting as an event planner than a yoga teacher. And that that decision and that declaration, it's so exciting and it will lead to an opportunity where you get to do yoga teaching, which is your skill, which is your zone of genius, which is the ultimately the thing that you want. But Before all of that, there's so many other skills like actually planning the event, marketing it, that you have to be willing to learn in the beginning or also do. And that that is like 90% of the experience and the retreat is like 10% of the one week or whatever is your itinerary. so can you speak to like what is all involved or what are those other skills that it takes? To do this, yeah, to do it. karoline: Mm-hmm. I always say that actually the teaching yoga is the smallest part of the work of hosting a retreat and it really is. And and I would say smallest and probably easiest because that's something you probably a natural at. You're like, you know, that's the reason why you decided to host a retreat and everything else you just kind of learn along the way. But it's not something that you just a natural in, you know? And so Yeah, like I think maybe it's easier to answer that question by telling you the process that I take myself in when I'm actually planning a retreat. so then you know, I can just kind of have this mental checklist of like, you know, everything that is involved in in creating and selling and marketing. MaKenzie Fly: And changing Yes, changing the hats, like okay, now I've got my marketer hat on. karoline: for me, like this entire process is like I don't know if other people do it like that, but it was something that it's something that comes very naturally to me. When I have an idea for a retreat, most of the times that idea comes really connected to a place. I find a place and the place inspires me in what I'm gonna create there. 'Cause I feel that each place has its own energy. and just as an example, like my Wild Ishe retreat, my retreat in Portugal. This space is like in this fourteenth century ruins and like like that really inspired me to create like everything that's inside this retreat. There is a lot of like creativity workshops and the name is just kind of like wild and raw and strong and like non per not perfect at all. Not perfect at all. It's not a five-star hotel. But it's just like it really inspired me to create everything that retreat is gonna be. Because I mean there is the work that I do and that's regardless. But I like to have each of my retreats specially different locations themed slightly different with a slightly different intention. and slightly different activities and schedules and workshops. And so that theme is kind of gonna guide me in how I'm going to guide the retreat itself. And so I always start from there. which I don't know if it's a usual way to do that, bro. Have no idea. It's just my way of doing it. and then from there I think also with time I started getting more confidence in in being very like taking action before I'm like 100% ready. So often when I'm at this stage, I haven't gotten everything figured out yet, not even dates, or maybe I haven't actually paid deposits for for hotels or anything like that. But I'm already like putting it out there. And seeing what reaction I'm getting from my community. MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. karoline: you know, already creating wait lists and already like talking about it, like especially to people already on my mail list. maybe like mentioning a little bit on socials, but kind of like already getting a little bit of this early interest and seeing like how people react to it. and then from there, yeah, basically like. All these kind of logistics come like you need to check dates and you need to check like what are the deposit policies, then you need to create like the entire messaging around the retreat. Like, how do you want to communicate what this retreat is about? Then you create sales pages, then you create payment links, payment plans, whatever. Like how you like you're gonna price it and just basically start like talking more and more. It's like there's this entire process, even before you launch retreats, which I feel it's like it's become really, I wouldn't say half of the process, but maybe 30% of the pro the process. And I feel that's something that I really rushed through in the very start of hosting retreats. just because you're kind of like, I have this idea and I'm gonna launch it and then let's see if it sells, you know. MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. karoline: And I feel like there's this entire process in before that is gonna already set your retreat for success. And it's already gonna grant you like these kind of like early comers. So for my experience, for my experience, like I like sometimes feel half of a retreat already, even before like I openly open enrollment MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. karoline: on my social media for ex for example, just kind of like having This early interest and this, yeah, just kind of like nurturing that community before you even say, like, hey, like here are the bookings, come and book now, you know. MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. karoline: and I think obviously with time, the more I've been doing this, the more I ha already have people who have been to retreats, who refer other people to my retreats. Who are kind of like they said coming back as a yearly thing. and so I'm also kind of like creating that opportunity for these people to join me first. And then yeah, when everything is set up, then you know, I'm just opening bookings, talking about it a lot like on socials, but actually this is something that it's Coming up for me more and more is like having retreats that don't necessarily sell because of my social media. And I think like when I say that to my clients, they're actually quite surprised. Because I would say that maybe 20% of my bookings will come directly from Instagram. And MaKenzie Fly: Mm-hmm. karoline: I see yoga teachers putting 100% of their time and effort on Instagram. And I'm like. MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. Right. That's the only like pathway to it or the only marketing strategy. Yeah. karoline: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then I'm like, if you're putting your hundred percent in this and if you're booking maybe twenty or thirty percent of your bookings are coming through this, then no wonder it's not failing. There MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. karoline: needs to be other other ways to to MaKenzie Fly: Mm-hmm. karoline: do that, right? And for me, like the biggest the biggest drive of this for sure, like having hosted more retreats, but like creating Like for me, a retreat business is not just a one-off retreat that you sell. MaKenzie Fly: Mm. karoline: I think a retreat business is something slightly different. It's like having like selling one retreat is one thing. Selling multiple retreats is something else. You kind of need to keep that momentum. And there is an entire ecosystem behind that. And that's basically what keeps the momentum in my business. MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. So helpful, all the all of the steps walking through. And I think it's counterintuitive to what people think of there's an ideation period of where you're, you know, dreaming up the retreat. But then it moves really quickly into the promoting and the marketing and selling, even before some of that stuff is even like the deposit is down and things like that. and then finalizing details once you've got some people in, and then actually. like leading it when the time is right. In my experience, I have led, I think I've led about 10 retreats. And for a while I had this was before I was really even prioritizing my own personal yoga business, is I had a partnership and we launched and grew what we called Rachaka retreats, which Rachaka, little little fun fact in case you don't know, Rachaka is the Sanskrit word for exhale. but we grew we grew our retreat business Really quickly and it was successful. But I found that I didn't actually love how much of retreat coordinating and planning and hosting and running was event event. Like it's just you're an event planner, basically, more of the time. and I also found that because it was a partnership of splitting the profit between two people on top of retreat overhead and costs, especially if you have like a really nice luxury resort. The overhead might be f anywhere, I think our most expensive was like 45 grand just to cover the rooms, you know, for the for the retreat. And so it for me at that time was not enough of a like it didn't pull in enough money after the costs of the rooms and then splitting it with my partner, even when we were running three retreats a year. So it's something that I moved away from. And I guess I'd just be curious to hear from you do you think it really can be and has it been for you something that can pull in enough money? Or for most yoga teachers, is it better for them to potentially start off just with the one off and it's like a fun thing that you do once a year? Or can this be your main business of running them? And if it is, how many do you have to actually run? Because even in the example of your business, you also do an element of coaching. in your business. So just I guess more information on what it actually looks like as a business owner for it to for it to be financially stable enough for you. karoline: I think that's a great question. First of all, because I feel that a lot of yoga teachers want to move into retreats because they want the financial stability without knowing how it's like to actually run a retreat business. So of course, running that first few retreats will give you like you a good feeling of like, is this really what you want to do? MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. karoline: So first you need to figure out like, is this really my gig? Like, is this really what I want to do? Because there's other ways to create a consistent income with hosting retreat. I mean, with as a yoga teacher, not just hosting retreats. second question about is running a yoga retreat business or a retreat business in general actually profitable and sustainable? Is it enough? and that's when your like a an ecosystem comes along, what I call it like your retreat business ecosystem, because having something in the in-between retreats that helps you continue nurturing your community, but also creating that kind of like recurrent revenue that it's kind of not like peaking and then like, okay, I have a retreat. I have all this revenue coming in. And then like for maybe two or three months I don't have any retreats. Then I have like nothing coming in. So having other offers in the in-between is something that like I recommend. And I think it's part of running a sustainable retreat business. It's part of it's doesn't necessarily like for me I just went really sideways. I don't consider my mentoring part of my retreat business. And honestly, if I wasn't doing this, I would probably do some sort of like mentoring and coaching more around what I teach and the retreats. I wish I had the time for it, but I don't. MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. karoline: And I kind of got into this like very naturally and it just kind of evolved. would say that probably my retreats is still my main income. My mentoring is a thing that fills in the gaps. I do not teach in-person classes anymore. Maybe at events, something more punctual. I don't teach in studios. I haven't had taught in studios for more than two years already. MaKenzie Fly: Wow. karoline: I basically just like yeah. dedicate my entire time to the retreats. Last year was a very different year for me because yeah, I gave birth, my my son was was born and that's when like the mentoring kind of became like a bigger thing for me. Cause I was able to do this online and like I didn't have to yeah do the entire like retreat logistics and being with people and just could dedicate myself to to him and being more at home. But normally I like before pr pre-baby. It's life pre-baby. So MaKenzie Fly: Mm-hmm. karoline: pre-baby, I was hosting I think seven retreats and one teacher training. MaKenzie Fly: Wow. karoline: this year I'm hosting, let me count, because my start of the year was a bit like still a bit slower. and then now I'm picking up in my regular rhythm. So I had one retreat in Portugal. I didn't do any retreats last winter because my baby was still too so small. And we spent three months in Brazil with my family. I'm originally from Brazil. I don't know if we had this conversation. MaKenzie Fly: Mm-hmm. karoline: but then I had one retreat in the start of the year, and then now I'm hosting yeah, three retreats in a row, like one now in Portugal, Greece, Portugal again, considering Teaching one a new year, so yeah, four or five this year, and then planning six retreats for next year. So you gotta love it. You gotta love it. It's intense. MaKenzie Fly: That's a lot. That is a Yeah. karoline: But I also I like how much freedom it gives me because and I think that's a lot to do also with your personality. You MaKenzie Fly: Hm. karoline: either love you gotta love like being with people, Speaking in public. I love the creativity part of the retreats, like just creating a new experience, like that gives me a hype. Find new locations. MaKenzie Fly: Hmm. Yeah, that for sure. karoline: I love that. I actually love organizing stuff. MaKenzie Fly: That's key. Then that's the part is like you have to really like planning parties. I think that's a good indicator to see if you would enjoy the event planning part of the retreat is actually karoline: Yeah, yeah. MaKenzie Fly: liking putting together itineraries like that for sure. karoline: I think selling is probably the heaviest part of the work for me, which something that has become a bit easier with time. just like always having to put yourself out there, being the salesperson. MaKenzie Fly: Mm-hmm. karoline: But it's something you get used to. MaKenzie Fly: Mm-hmm. karoline: I just love I also love the people I meet. I have so many retreat guests who have become my friends. And it's just kind of like in every corner of the world I go to travel with my family, I will meet somebody that I know. And that's pretty awesome. MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. karoline: And yeah, I actually love the flexibility. Like I don't like having a schedule like every day I'm kind of like I need to get up and like run out the door and like and have this schedule and be fixed in one place because like my family, we travel quite a lot. And so for me it was always difficult with with the schedule in studios to to keep consistent because I'm like, I'm always traveling. I don't want to be in Europe in the winter because it sucks. And so, and then every time I came back, I'm like, I lost my class, I lost my people, and then like start it felt like starting back from zero for me didn't make s much sense. So I think it it has a lot to do with the kind of person you are and the personality you have and realizing like What you actually if you actually enjoy doing this in first place, right? MaKenzie Fly: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I'm trying to remember how like what was my most profitable retreat and what was the least profitable on top of other strategies that my business partner and I used to market because I feel like that would be really helpful for people to hear or just start thinking differently. The my most profitable one that I ever hosted was actually in Sedona, Arizona, which is very close to Las Vegas. And the reason why is because our overhead was so low. We ended up using an Airbnb because at in Sedona, there's not really it's very small. And so there's not like big retreat facility. We just did it in a house. And so that's usually your biggest expense is like the housing and the rooming, of course, for people. And that karoline: Yeah. MaKenzie Fly: was only like three, maybe three grand for us to do a weekend. And so that retreat didn't did pull in. 20,000 for us. And then the expenses were so low that we ended up being able to split, I think around $15,000. And so I made karoline: Mm-hmm. MaKenzie Fly: about $7,000, which it felt so fun to do like a three-day retreat and make seven grand. But then our karoline: Mm-hmm. MaKenzie Fly: least profitable one, I think, was one that we did in Tulume, where we made like 60 grand or something. But as I mentioned, 47 of that or something was the retreat. expenses. And so then it stinks when you have a lot of people there, but then you only end up pulling maybe three or four thousand dollars. And that's still pretty good, you know. but karoline: Mm-hmm. MaKenzie Fly: it was because I was splitting all that money with a partner. So I just wanted to actually give real numbers to people so you can see the difference between the like the profit margins of what what things cost kind of after karoline: Mm-hmm. MaKenzie Fly: Expenses. And then to move into the other strategies aside from marketing, posting on Instagram and sending emails is like bare minimum. And I wanted to challenge myself and also the yoga teachers listening. It's like you got to get so much more creative of how you can get people in and then basically have some type of conversion type event. I Suggestion and what my business partner and I did is we actually hosted a festival. We called it the Rachaka Yoga Fest in Las Vegas and use that festival, that in-person event, as the thing to introduce, remind, and offer really sweet deals for our retreats on the back end. So it was like the event was the conversion event to sell more retreats. So things like that, to where it's like it's not just that you're relying on Instagram posts or email marketing strategies, which you absolutely do need, but can you host some sort of workshop or festival or in-person event that they have a incentive, incentivized reason to join the retreats there? yeah, that that ended up working out really well for us. Do you have any other tips on what people can do outside of posting and sending emails? karoline: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. first regards to your question about like, you know, how much you're putting down for payments for hotels, that's so different because in Europe things are a lot cheaper. And when you said 45,000, I was like, he's so scared. MaKenzie Fly: God. No, that was Tulum. Tulum Mexic Tulume, Mexico was our most expensive. And it's funny because I always think, like, let's go to Mexico because it'll be cheap for the weekend. And I could not believe it was amazing. It was very luxury, like worth the forty-five thousand dollars. But yeah, it was not cheap. Like that bill at the end, we were like, and we basically did this retreat for like we broke even and got maybe some change, you know. Because karoline: Yeah. MaKenzie Fly: it was a nice vacation for us that was paid for. And karoline: Yeah. MaKenzie Fly: then we got about maybe two thousand dollars each or something. But with all of karoline: Mm-hmm. MaKenzie Fly: the work that you put in, karoline: Mm. MaKenzie Fly: yeah. So karoline: And I think when you when you have a partner, it's also kind of like it feels it's nice because you share the responsibilities, but then it's kind of like MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. You share the profit. karoline: you share the profit as well. And for me, I've I have done that before, but it was also really difficult accounting wise. Cause I'm like, so who's gonna get the bookings? Like, is it gonna go through your your platform? Is it gonna come through my platform? How are we gonna like? figure out the taxes because that's another thing that people don't really think about. Like you MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. karoline: have to pay taxes over your profit. And that that should be part of the equation as well. But then MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. karoline: like you cannot possibly calculate that because that will depend on how much money you earn by the end of the year. So MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. karoline: I thought that was really difficult to figure out. So what I do nowadays is like I would do everything myself. But then I will have collaborators that I've pay them like a fixed amount to come and teach a workshop. And they might choose to share the retreat or not. Like they they're not really part of the selling thing, but they are most most of the times very happy to share on their page, like about the like them teaching at my retreat. and yeah, like that's basically I think keeping your costs down, not like not taking such a big responsibility does give you that kind of like relaxed kind of state of mind for you to make the retreat happen, especially if it's like your very first retreats. And even like I think some of these retreat spaces are really beautiful, really incredible. But the money is like insane. Because I'm just thinking, if you're running one retreat, one or two retreats a year, that's one thing. But in my mind I'm going like if I'm hosting six retreats a year and I have to put deposit for all these retreats, like I These are this is money I'm putting down. I'm getting no interest in that. It's not really a super like money-wise decision to have that money sitting there. and so like a lot of th a lot of my mind's just going like to a lot of different places. But for me, these are these are all things that I take into account when making decisions. And I think like being a retreat leader is very much about this skill of making these very rational hard decisions as well. Which doesn't necessarily mean you're always gonna get them right. R right. It's you're just kind of like building that muscle. You become better at making these decisions. And so MaKenzie Fly: Yeah, being decisive for sure is important. karoline: yeah, and like even the the whole process of like trying to fill my retreats before like I actually launch them and put down payments on them is like one of the things that really kind of like having that money up front that you can put down in deposits rather than taking that money out of your pocket. Right. That's one thing. MaKenzie Fly: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. karoline: that Yeah, that I would take in consideration. In terms of like profit, I think my most profitable retreat was I think I earned around eleven thousand Euros. Euros and dollars is a little bit quite more or less the same now. and my least profitable retreat was a break even. MaKenzie Fly: Yeah, break even, for sure. karoline: but I would say the like This the one the thing in between and what I normally aim for in each retreat is around seven thousand Euros. Which I think it's something very possible. And then if it goes wild and it goes really well, amazing. And if it goes a little bit bit before a little bit less than that, it's kind of like all the retreats kind of like level themselves and they come more or less at that. You know, whatever. MaKenzie Fly: Yes. Yes. We noticed that too when we we would aim for three a year and we would always have one that would do really well, usually one that would do okay, and then one that would be around breaking even. I do want to speak on what you were talking about of the structure of it because we did set it up. We had its the Retracker Retreats had it had its own business bank account. It also had its own software. So like a like a a go high level software like Kajabi or in our case we use FG karoline: Mm-hmm. MaKenzie Fly: funnel. So it had its own thing. So that the money karoline: Yeah. MaKenzie Fly: was the businesses and we were each getting paid out from that. Do not, if you're like, don't do it messy where it's like going through one, because then at that point, just run your own if the money is is flowing through. Yeah. karoline: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I just I think it's worth mentioning that because if you're like having a joint partnership, that's one thing. But like if you're gonna do a one off retreat partnership, that starts getting a bit complicated. MaKenzie Fly: Yeah, and just messy on the back end. I'm so glad that karoline: It isn't true. MaKenzie Fly: you you brought that up. But it then did that business had its own expenses between karoline: Yeah. MaKenzie Fly: filing filing legally for taxes. I don't know if it's the same for you, but in the States we had to file the K one and claim the the earnings from that. And it had its own tech subscription ex subscription expenses and things like that. So yeah, we we set it up. Correctly for a business partnership, but it just became, it felt like so much work for not a lot of payout. And my business partner and I both agreed on that. We were like, I feel like I'd just rather do my own thing. And in the season, in the season of motherhood, you know, I just needed to prioritize the thing that brought in the most return. So that was another thing that I wanted to speak to you about is have you found it difficult to be moving into motherhood and having a young child and having retreats? something that requires you to travel, has it been challenging? Because do you bring along a nanny? Cause that's what I did. My first year of motherhood, I hosted three retreats and I had to bring a nanny, which then was another expense for me to do those things. So just the logistic part of it of how do you do all it? karoline: Just a second. Sorry. MaKenzie Fly: No problem. karoline: yeah, for me, I think I hosted a retreat when Leon was only three months. And I think I was too positive. But I it was my first baby, so I had no idea. I was like, sure, that's gonna be like so easy. MaKenzie Fly: Yeah, you're like, it's gonna be fine. karoline: Yeah. But it was actually very close to my house. My mom came over and she stayed there with me. And thankfully Leon was a very easygoing child. He was a very easy baby up till he was seven months and then he started sleeping really badly. so I guess I got lucky with that. And then the other thing is I basically hosted all of my retreats locally. Like I happen to live in Portugal, very close to the ocean. There's a lot of retreat spaces around me. One of the retreat spaces that I actually host my retreats is my partner's hotel. and yeah, for the first retreats that I hosted while having Leon, it was kind of like he was there, and then I was like teaching in between teaching, I had him on my lap. MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. karoline: and that worked out all right. And now I'm gonna start traveling. He just woke up. MaKenzie Fly: Yeah, woke up from his nap. karoline: He's like, You're traveling? Wait. MaKenzie Fly: my goodness. My kiddo, when he wakes up from a nap, it is terror. He is like in the worst mood for the first ten minutes upon waking up, which I don't blame him. I'm crabby after waking up too, but I I understand. karoline: I think sometimes he wakes up in the middle of dreams and then he's just like MaKenzie Fly: Ha. karoline: so actually this retreating race will be the first retreat that I'm gonna go that I'm gonna have to travel to and I'm not taking him. My partner's keeping him. And I'm MaKenzie Fly: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And and that's karoline: like, he's yeah, he's a year and a half. I'm gonna manage. I have MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. karoline: traveled without him before. He stayed with my mom so I could travel with my partner, and that went really well. So I'm not worried at all. And I'm like, I'm gonna take a week off and I'm like I'm gonna be at work, but it's gonna feel like holidays, you know what I mean? MaKenzie Fly: Yes. Yes. And I think that this is important to speak about because it can be so easy to paint this picture on Instagram and you're like, I'm a mom and I'm in this beautiful location. I'm hosting a retreat and like here's my baby in the in-between. And it is beautiful, but it's also like beautiful chaos. And that's how I felt doing both was like I felt very split and very torn between my Tulum retreat. I think Finn, my son, was he was six months. And I found it really challenging to switch back and forth between mothering my child while also like holding the space for all the people. And it was a lot for me energetically, even you know, recovering in the postpartum and just all the stuff. So it was beautiful. And I look back at the pictures and that I'm in awe of that woman. But the experience, the lived experience of it, I felt like an absolute psychopath. I was like, I wish I could have just left the baby. my baby at home, but also I was not ready to quite do that. So just being very, karoline: Yeah. MaKenzie Fly: very real for listeners who maybe are in the same position of being a mom and wanting to do things and yeah, just what it has actually karoline: Yeah. MaKenzie Fly: been like. karoline: Yeah, I think the first retreat was too soon for me. I thought it was gonna be like 'cause then I had more teachers helping me. So I was only teaching one class in the morning. And then yeah, then I had like I just had him with me the whole time, like during meals, talking to people, and then I had teachers teaching in the afternoon workshops, and then of course I had the support of my mom. But if Like I don't think I would do that again. It was MaKenzie Fly: Ha ha. karoline: beautiful. I have incredible pictures of him in the old room on the old mat. It was really cool. And we we made nice memories. MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It ticks that box. Exactly. You're like, did it once, don't recommend my karoline: I think the second one was March, April, May, June, July, August, September. He was seven months. So I wasn't sleeping in the retreat location because it's also very close to my house. So I was basically going like, yeah, he was already seven months. I think he was seven months or maybe a bit more. So he was already eating. he was breastfeeding mostly at night. MaKenzie Fly: Mm-hmm. karoline: and then it was also it's also it was also easier with my partner because he owns the hotel and sometimes he was just there and then I would like cuddle him a little bit, but was I was basically at home at night. The harder spot was the not sleeping well at night because around that time he started sleeping really badly. MaKenzie Fly: Yes. karoline: But he wasn't in the retreat the entire day. So I could actually my mind could focus. Cause that's the thing. Like when you have your it's like when you try to have a conversation with your friend and you both have babies and you kind of like, wait, just a second. And you kind of MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. karoline: you can't really focus. Like you can hear your child s like crying or like you're doing something, MaKenzie Fly: That's what I'm talking about. Split brain. karoline: like crawling somewhere, they're not supposed in your mind just switches off. You know, it's I find it very hard to focus. but yeah, around seven months was okay, but I wasn't ready to leave him and like for the entire week of the retreat. But now I feel ready. MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. Well, li I feel like we should end the episode on an empowering and aspirational note for people listen listening because maybe they listen to this and they're like, I thought I wanted to do retreats, but maybe now I don't. If listen, if you are feeling that way, if we can do it while having growing humans and having tiny babies, you can do it. And maybe it is that's been my experience of it feeling hard or quote unquote. not the decision that I wanted to make for my business. That's just because of the season that I'm in. I think if I were in a different time, the appeal of the travel, like you said, the ability to create something like an itinerary that's really cool. There are so many pros with it. I think you just have to really develop the business skills. And I guess I wanted to offer just one more tip and maybe you too, Carol, just to wrap it up. Something that helped us make sure that we had enough To put down the deposit on the next one was always at the end of the one retreat that we were hosting. We would invite those members, the people who are on that retreat, to put down a $1,000 deposit for the next one, even if we didn't have the location. We would try to have the location and the general dates, but sometimes we didn't. But we would try to get a $1,000 deposit for them to come on the next one so that we had the cushion in the bank to put down the deposit. For somewhere else. That was really a game changer. And then we also had a really important refund policy where anytime people did put down a deposit, it was non-refundable. It was transferable. They could transfer karoline: Transfer. MaKenzie Fly: it to another one, but we would not refund money if for that 1K deposit, just so that we could do deposits to places for the next one. And that really, really helped. karoline: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I sign right under it. I think launching our retreats with enough time in advance. because sometimes, yeah, I pe I have people coming to me and saying, like, I want to host my retreat. And I'm like, okay, when is the date? it's like four months from now. And I'm like, sure, we can do it, but it's gonna feel tight. Yeah. Yeah. And so MaKenzie Fly: Buckle up. Yeah, buckle up, Buttercup. Here's your jet back. karoline: I yeah, I I love your strategy. That's that's something like of course, like the more you host retreats, you're gonna have more cash flow and that's that's different. Something that it's like I said, you kind of you start building things. It's you know, a business doesn't take off in your first two like your retreat business is not gonna take off in like the first two or three retreats you host. I do feel that yoga teachers sometimes give up very soon or too soon. To actually give it an an honest chance. because that's like that's the reality. You're building the muscles, you're building the skills, you're like the more retreats you host, the more the experience you have. sure, like you can do a lot of things to help your business take off and it can save you time, like something that you know took me however many years to figure out. Like I can. you know, grab all that knowledge and give it to you and just give you a head start, right? but at the end of the day, the more you're doing it, like, you know, just something like so obvious that any business needs cash flow, like that's something that the more retreat zeros, the more you're gonna have. And then you're gonna have that spare money there that is gonna give you a bit of a buffer. like the more host retreats in the same places, the more I'm able to negotiate the deposits with them as well. That MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. karoline: I don't have to put the deposit one ear in a head. They trust me enough that I'm not gonna cancel because that's one thing that I feel that hotels are getting a bit tighter on is their deposit policies just because there's so many people that you know they will they will book the place, maybe don't put the enough like commitment and effort to make it happen and then just pull out. And so if people trust you that you're like you're going to honor your word, they are gonna give you more flexible deposit policies as well. Anyways, there's so many things that you can do MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. karoline: to make those things like to make that run a little bit better, like a well-oiled machine, right? MaKenzie Fly: Yeah, yes. karoline: And the start it feels a bit rusty and difficult, sure. Like what business is the what business and what career doesn't feel difficult in the first years? It's like you come off straight from university, get an incredible job that you're making all this money. No, same thing. MaKenzie Fly: Yeah, yeah. That's such a good point and think like a reminder to end on is just be resourceful, have grit, you know, and just ask the question. I think that to your point of asking if they can, if you've been there a couple of times, of do a different situation and set up with you, the worst that could happen is they say no and just ask, ask and see what can happen. I think you might be surprised. Carol, you are so awesome. Thank you so much for jumping on the podcast, for sharing with karoline: You MaKenzie Fly: us about your experience and also being real and truthful about the ins and the outs of it. If listeners are loving you and maybe want to look into your mastermind or get help and support of getting your retreats out the door or go on a retreat with you, would you happen or would you be willing to share with them how they can plug into you and your world? karoline: You can just find me on Instagram, probably the easiest. Carol the Solza, Carol with the K. MaKenzie Fly: Carol A. karoline: Carol with the K and yeah, I think that's the easiest way for us to connect. MaKenzie Fly: Awesome. Yeah. Well, I will link everything in the show notes. Thank you, dear listener, for coming back each and every Wednesday. If you loved this episode and you have a bestie, a yoga teacher bestie that you want to host a retreat with, send this episode to them or any other yoga teacher who you feel like would really value and benefit from this conversation. We would be so appreciative for the shares. And thank you, Carol, for jumping on and sharing all of your wisdom and your magic. karoline: Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. MaKenzie Fly: Yes. And until next Wednesday, everybody, Namaste.