Latest / The Bold Lounge / Sarah Gormley: The Bold Path of Self-Rediscovery

Transcript

Sarah Gormley: The Bold Path of Self-Rediscovery · The Bold Lounge

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bold Lounge podcast.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: My name is Leigh Burgess and I will be your host.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: If you're anything like me, you love hearing inspiring stories of people who have gone on bold journeys and made a positive impact in the world.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: This podcast is all about those kinds of stories.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Every week, we'll hear from someone who has taken a leap or embarked on an extraordinary journey.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: In addition to hearing their stories, we'll also learn about their bold growth mindset that they use to make things happen.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: Whether they face challenges or doubts along the way, they persisted and ultimately achieved their goals.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: These impactful stories will leave you feeling motivated and inspired to pursue your own bold journey.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: I believe everyone has a bold story waiting to be freed.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: Tune in and get ready to be inspired.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bold Lounge.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: Today I have Sarah Gormley.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: She is a writer and art gallery owner living in Columbus, ohio.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: Her undergraduate degree from DePaul University reinforced an early love for literature and writing, while the heavy sprinkling of liberal arts fairy dust taught her how to analyze and articulate a clear point of view.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: She rounded out this foundation with concentrations in marketing and operations from the University of Chicago Graduate School of Business, and now we're going to talk about everything that's happened since.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: Thank you for joining the Bold Lounge, thank you for having me.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: It's such a pleasure to be here.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so we had some pre-taping conversation, so I'm excited to kind of jump into your boldness, your bold journey.
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: And we'll start with.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: What is your definition of bold?
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: Well, first of all, I knew you were going to ask me that, so I should have a better answer, I guess.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: When I thought about it, I think it's something about taking an action or taking a step.
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: It's an active right.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: Being bold is about sort of doing a choice.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: I think there's something about it that's not expected, so it's something about believing in yourself, or a cause enough to get out of your comfort zone and go for it.
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: Again, that's a really concise definition.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: I'm a writer.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: I should be better.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: Being bold is, you know, it's not exactly courage, it's not exactly strength, but it's I just keep thinking of it's like a melting pot of variables, and sometimes for me it's like a melting pot of emotions, like I'm scared, I feel excited, I feel unsure, I feel talented or like whatever it may be, and it's usually like a host of not so good and good.
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: And it is this interesting thing that you kind of just go I'm and I'm gonna keep going and in.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: Sometimes for me, like it's this logical fight that happens between my ears of, like that doesn't make sense, like that all the data doesn't add up right, like why are you doing this?
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: And I think people who are bold can kind of step through that and they can take that first step which leads to the next one, which you talked about courage or confidence and then they're like, okay, I'm still going.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: It's not as perfect as I want it to be or you know, but it's, it's exactly the way it should be.
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: And you keep going and then you feel like you have more agency.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: So I like, I feel like boldness, yet bold step leads to confidence, agency, and then it just starts cycling and then it's like a little bit like I did, I did the thing.
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I did right.
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: Whatever the thing is, you did it.
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: Whatever.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: Now what?
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so if you think of a moment where you did the thing, what's one that comes to mind for you when you think about your definition?
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: Well, I, you know, I grew up in Ohio and on a farm and I really always wanted to be in New York City, and so after I did my MBA at the University of Chicago.
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: I had a great job, but I was like, oh, I'm not in New York City, like I need to get there, and so I quit my job and moved.
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: I didn't there you go.
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: I didn't do the thing of waiting and interviewing.
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: Frankly, I probably could have transferred with the organization I was with, but I wasn't sure that was the best place for me and I was young, yeah, and so that was pretty bold and maybe, you know, if it had turned out differently it might have just been stupid, but that was pretty bold.
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like educated, not guess, but move, like I've thought about it a little bit, but not over thought it right.
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: You know, you didn't think about too much.
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: We stayed in the thought pattern.
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: You took action, I'll figure it out.
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I've done a lot of I'll figure it out.
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I love that.
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: I think that's a big part of being bold is the betting on yourself to figure it out, because a lot of times being bold and I don't know the exact percentage, maybe we'll do research on that in the future but, like of every bold, is it one out of two land, is it one out of three?
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: I don't know, but there are certainly ones that don't land the way that you thought they would, and there's moments of a whole host of emotions that could happen with that.
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: You know, it could be a life event, it could be.
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: You know, you tried something that didn't work.
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: You could be fired like, wow, I wasn't expecting that.
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: And then you're like, okay, you know, at times I've said in my life I just can't cope anymore.
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: You know, I stopped and like the world keeps, the traffic keeps going.
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: It's like, oh well, I need to.
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know so.
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so you did the thing.
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: You moved to New York.
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: And how old were you when you did that?
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: I was 25 or six, I should know this.
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: So mid 20s.
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I finished the MBA.
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: I lived in Chicago for about five years, I think 26.
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: Okay, so once you got there, what was the boldness that got you there and how did it keep going, in the sense of what happened next in New York to lead you back to Ohio?
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: Well, there's a whole book about this.
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: Right, your book is the Order of Things, a memoir about chasing joy.
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: So definitely feel like we can start stepping into that, because I think certainly many pieces of this will be what we talk about, but there's a few years in between, right?
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: But so I guess, just for listeners, you know, I could tell an entire story about my career.
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: That looks absolutely like, bold move after bold move after bold move, asking for what I wanted, asking for the salaries I wanted.
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: My challenge along the way was that I was hoping that those things would do something to make me feel better about myself and be more fulfilling.
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: So, while on the surface, everyone who knew me thought I was this badass who made and I did I made big decisions and kept succeeding and climbing the corporate ladder and getting bigger jobs and bigger titles with cool companies.
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: But what I discovered after a series of bold moves was that I had some challenges, some interpersonal, emotional challenges that I needed to address.
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: So I'm not trying to whammy the conversation, but no whammy away.
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: It's a you know, it's a thing, and I keep hearing from other women in particular, who you know.
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: People who meet them are just overwhelmed and impressed by their leadership and decision making, and I was all along really suffering.
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: So why do we do that?
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like even even just this week, I've had a moment.
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: I just think we work really hard, and I think you know there's a lot of things I think in the world that people only show the good stuff, and it's harder and more vulnerable to show like when it's not going so well or when you're feeling down, or even like, you know, having a little bit of imposter syndrome here or there, or having some things come up.
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: It's like where did that come from?
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: You know, I don't, yeah, so I feel like it's becoming more acceptable, but I still don't see it out in the world as much as I wish I could, right, and so I'm editing myself right now.
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: You know, the boldest thing I've ever done is start therapy and take care of myself and do the work to figure out what was going on inside me.
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: That nothing external, none of the gold stars that I was really good at chasing, could do Right.
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: They couldn, could you know.
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: And so that's the boldest thing.
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, to believe in yourself and that you're worthy of feeling better about yourself.
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's crazy, I know, but it seems so obvious.
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: Of course we all should, but we don't.
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: I don't know if it's the jacked up way that we look at success to like, at least for me I'll just speak personally my biggest thing and it's actually aed up way that we look at success to like, at least for me.
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: I'll just speak personally my biggest thing and it's actually a little embarrassing at 52.
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: I have, like you said, you can look on the wall and see the plaque of good career, great title, good pay, kicked ass at work, you know all those things.
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: But inside I was really trying to prove myself, trying to show I could do it.
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: I was never feeling enough and so it's just, like you know, for me I even just said this to my husband this week.
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: I was like you know, I think therapy is gonna unconfident.
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, because I'm all for like figuring yourself out and using the tools you need to actually do that.
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: And so I think it was interesting that you just brought that up, because I think sometimes I think there's it feels like we're wearing something like a facade or not sharing kind of really what we're all about, because we think you know one.
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: I'll just speak for myself.
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't be accepted, or people wouldn't think I'm as successful, or maybe they wouldn't like me or, who knows, like I could probably fill in the blank a different way each day.
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: Do you ever feel like that, or did you ever feel like that?
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: Oh, I felt that way for as long as I can remember, and I didn't matter what external indicators of success I achieved or what feedback people gave me indicators of success I achieved or what feedback people gave me I continue to just feel like shit about myself.
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: I mean, I, you know, imposter syndrome is one thing, self-doubt is one thing.
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: I've had self-loathing from the time I was eight, nine, oh, you know.
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: And so when you kind of remember what it feels like in your body, yeah, and, but I, I was a version of myself.
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: I didn't even know there was something else available, yeah, so that took a long time to uh, to undo, and some of the patterns are still there.
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: Frankly, you just learn the tools to manage.
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: Frankly, you just learn the tools to manage.
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I didn't.
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: You know, I knew two things by age 40.
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: I'm in a ton of pain and you know, I don't, I don't want to feel this way for the rest of my life.
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: I don't know what else to do, and so therapy is really a last resort, and it likely should have been something that I pursued earlier.
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: So that was my experience, and part of the reason I wrote the book was to try to share that experience because I know and I hate it that it's true, but I know so many other people have that kind of suffering that nobody else knows about and sometimes we don't even know what to call it.
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: Right, we can't name it.
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: Right, yeah, we can't name it and we can't fix it and we can't figure it out and it really gets frustrating.
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: And the other thing for overachieving women is that we're even afraid to admit that we would want something to change, to admit that we would want something to change Right, yeah, no, I get it.
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I have wonderful friends and family.
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: I have this great job.
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a beautiful apartment.
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: Why do I think I deserve to have something to change?
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: So it's all, it's messy, it's messy.
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: It gets messy in between the areas.
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure.
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: I'm just leaning into this because I can relate and I bet there's a lot of people listening that can relate as well.
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: So when you stepped into this book obviously the Order of Things, a memoir about chasing joy tell me about the title and let's step into the creation of this.
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: Which would you consider the book?
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: One of your boldest moves to it's vulnerable?
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: It is, it is?
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: I don't know my reaction.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: It doesn't feel that way.
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's one thing to write the thing, it's another thing to share the thing, and I own an art gallery now and my artists do this every day.
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and so my appreciation for that vulnerability has escalated.
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: So how did you come up with the title?
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: It was not the first title.
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: I wrote a full manuscript that had a different title and as I started editing and figuring out what to keep and what to discard which is really hard because they're like wonderful scenes and you really have to decide is this part of the story you're trying to tell it might be a beautiful scene, but if it doesn't, it doesn't fit, it has to come out.
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: So what is writing, except trying to make order of something?
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and so I was trying to write the book to figure out what happened to me.
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: And when we look back, even with perspective, I realized sometimes the thing you think matters doesn't matter at all, and then other things really matter that didn't seem significant.
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: And then there's the time order, and then the significance order, the magnitude.
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: So that's the title.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: Reflects me trying to tell a story in a way that's not entirely linear and it's messy, because life is messy and the subhead a memoir about chasing joy was one of the last was, I think, probably the last thing I added to the book, because even while I was writing the book, I don't think that I felt that I was a person who was worthy of seeking joy for myself, right, and so I never called it that and I didn't realize joy is something I wanted in my life, almost until I was working on the final chapter.
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, that's, that's what I was hoping to find and create in my life was joy, and for so long I chased success and that didn't bring me any joy at all, even huge successes.
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: So that's the title, yeah, yeah, I feel like sometimes certainly overachievers or high achieving women particularly and this could happen to men, but lived experience as a woman is that you know, we move the goalposts like we hit it and that's like, okay, that's great, I'm going to spend about a second here and then I'm going to move on.
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: You know, one of the things is the framework that I created is believe, own, learn, design, and the own part for me that I had to really work on was owning, like what was going right versus what was going wrong and checking myself and, like you said, looking at the patterns of like, where I skip over and those types of things.
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: So I think that's it's interesting to hear you know just the way you outlined it of like, also, what's important and what you thought was important, which really isn't, and maybe what you didn't value as much, which is right, yeah, what's something that you valued before that you then realized that it wasn't as important, and vice versa.
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: Titles, salaries, team size.
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: Did I have a seat at the table with the executive team?
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: I mean things that I believe illustrated in corporate life that you were successful.
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: Did your parents teach you that?
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: I grew up in a house and I thought like I was supposed to be smart, skinny and successful.
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't.
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: I think it wasn't my parents, was it society?
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: Is it a combination of the two?
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: I just thought, yeah.
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: I thought usually one thing yeah, I took a look around.
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: I was a really perceptive little kid.
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, well, this is what people seem to want out of me and I'll just go do those things.
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so imagine frustration and the pain, which I didn't have words for.
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: I remember being like you know, I'm doing all the things.
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: What, what is this supposed to be getting?
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know I was anorexic.
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: I was valedictorian.
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: Supposed to be getting me?
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I was anorexic, I was valedictorian.
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: I did my MBA right Like directly after undergrad.
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: You know, I did all the things and kept turning and turning and I'd never occurred to me to try to try something new or try something different, because I was.
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: I was convinced incorrectly, of course that if I could just find the right job and I guess I mean not to get into really messy territory it's sort of like it's not your job's job to make you feel good about yourself, just like it's not maybe a partner's job, it's your job.
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: The sooner you learn that, the better for everyone listening, because I think it is that you're not going to find it anywhere external.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: I know it's not gonna happen.
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: That's crazy, right.
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: It's hard, though, like I don't know.
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: At least for me it was hard and still is.
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: I'm still like recovering, like, or learning or figuring it out, but at least I know now, like some of the things that I felt, or the ways that I felt, or even now things bubble up like oh, that's what that is, that's what I'm working on, you know.
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: So I don't ever feel like it's just checkbox healed, you know.
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: No, okay, of course, of course, but patterns are very strong.
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know I've learned.
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: I'm on year 12 now therapy 13, I can't remember.
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: But you know we go back and talk about the same things and it's like, you know, it's not like hiking the Appalachian Trail, it's not like you just keep progressing, it's like you go back and it moves.
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: I call it.
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: It's like you're swimming around the same pond.
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's that tree again.
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I did pass that.
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, let's talk about that again, okay, okay.
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: So in the book, when you went home, tell me a little bit about the transition when you decided to go home to take care of your mom.
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: Well, so my father had passed away from backup.
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: First of all, I should have never taken the job with Adobe I mean amazing company.
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: But I had already started the work of therapy.
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: I knew I was too attached to these, like gold stars.
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: I really didn't know what else to do.
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: You know, I thought moving across the country where I didn't know anyone would be a great idea, and so you know, I wasn't performing well at work.
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: My father passed away in 16.
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: And my mom's cancer came back in 17.
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: And Adobe and I had a mutual set, which, whatever, it's fine.
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: You know I wasn't performing well, but I knew.
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: I decided that I needed to take a year off and not do anything like no job, no consulting, because I knew that that would be the only way that I could kind of get some clarity.
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: And so I moved home in November of 17.
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: Mom passed away in February of 18.
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: And I did not work or do anything again until January of 19.
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: And so it took a long time.
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: I call it like getting it off of me.
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: I had to get corporate ick off of me, which was challenging because it's addictive, you know, like you know, cue, habit, reward, right, in that sense of just how you would operate in that setting.
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: It's every least for me and I think it's somewhat similar is like that's how you're seen as successful, that's how you progress, that's how you live, that's how you get to the next level, right, yes and yeah.
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: So then I started doing some consulting and I was like, oh wait a minute, here I am making slides, emailing a bunch of people at all hours.
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: This feels a lot like what I was doing.
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm in charge.
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: And then, because Columbus is like the coolest city.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: Someone asked me they overheard me talking about opening an art gallery and this developer reached out and said we have a space.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: And I've had this dream since college of opening an art gallery.
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: And so I was like, okay, I'm gonna open a pop-up art gallery.
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: That's cool.
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: February of 19,.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: I decided pop-up gallery.
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: The next thing I knew I had a logo and a website and once that happened I'm like, oh, this probably isn't like a three-month experiment.
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: I need to try for a year.
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I just celebrated five years this past April.
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: It was the least planful thing I've ever done in my career.
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: I'm like, sure, I'll open a gallery and I love it.
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: I'm really good at it.
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: I have the most amazing artists and in that context, people have called me a joy broker.
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: So it was interesting that the ethos of the gallery is art can be a source of joy for anyone First-time buyers, season collectors.
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: We have mediums and price points to appeal to a real array.
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: So that's when I started thinking about joy.
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: But even then it didn't transfer in to me having an awareness that I deserved and wanted more joy in my own life.
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: I didn't know it until the book was finished, which I think is pretty interesting.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: The last chapter yeah Right, yeah, that's where you kind of learn More joy appears on the cover and you really don't hear it again, I think until the last chapter.
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: So a reflective subhead yeah, it's a really interesting process, I think you know, if anyone ever asked me like what you know how was writing the book, I was like it's been a learning journey.
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of things I learned about.
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: Myself is also advocating and like standing in for, like what you're not going to take out or what you're going to keep in, you know, and that kind of thing.
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: Making sure it's still you, yeah.
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: So I want to go back to this point where you said you put it out into the universe in college or early on in your life.
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: I want to.
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: You know, I want to have a flower shop or want to have a coffee shop, or, yeah, let's search.
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: Some people relate that you wanted to have an art studio and so the world kind of waited, it sounds like, but it was always like there for you and you say this, and then here's someone that says, hey, I got a space, you want to take it.
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: And then you did it.
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: What was the difference?
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: To go do it then, versus, let's say, like earlier in your career, when you were in San Francisco or New York, that someone said that to you be like, oh no, I can't ever do that.
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: Well, what was the differentiator for you?
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: Well, to be pragmatic, because you know, I've given talks.
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm not suggesting that you all quit your jobs and go me either, like I, you know, I quit my job.
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: I don't do that.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: You have to be able to afford it.
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right, yeah.
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: So big corporate jobs afforded me the opportunity to open an art gallery.
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: I want to be very clear about that.
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: Okay, so the reason I didn't do it before is that I was addicted to the gold stars of corporate life and I couldn't have afforded it.
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: So you know, now, as an entrepreneur, you know I have some cushion from those big jobs.
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: You could have kept going, though, I mean, you could have just stayed in corporate and gone back to corporate, I mean, but you didn't, though.
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: I mean you could have just stayed in corporate and gone back to corporate, I mean, but you didn't.
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: No, again, partially because I could afford not to right, if I had three children that I need to put to college.
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: I'd probably have a corporate job right now because that's the way life goes, but I think there was also a healthier kind of boldness.
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: I'll figure it out.
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: I love the idea of spending my days talking to artists and connecting artists with people who love their work.
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: Let's go do that, let's figure that out, and I've learned so much and the gallery was voted best gallery in Columbus last year, and so I think not to go back to therapy, but I wouldn't be.
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: None of this would have happened for me if I hadn't started to work with therapy when I was 40 years old.
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: I'm 52, also.
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: You understanding, kind of even, how you define the world, how you define joy, how you define self-care, courage or confidence, right?
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: So when you think of those things and the importance of therapy in it, what's different now, in 2024, after writing the book and going through that journey, and then you know, losing both your parents.
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: Then 2015, let's say, like 2015 to now, what is the additive for you now from just the knowledge of who you are?
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: What do you not do and what do you do now that you didn't do before?
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: Oh, I just enjoy life and myself in this life so much more.
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: And the one thing that has come up as I've talked about this on other podcasts and interviews you know, once you learn to be nicer to yourself, you become a lot more understanding and forgiving of other people.
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: And I don't I don't think anyone would have ever said that I wasn't nice or kind, but I was really judgmental to myself and I think you know I would look at other people and judge decisions they made, and why don't you just go do the thing, do what you need to do to sort out your life.
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: You know and now I'm like Sarah it's hard.
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: Life is super complicated and people, a lot of people, are suffering and struggling with things that you never see, and so I think it's just made me a better human being and it feels better to wake up in the world when you're just a better human being.
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: That sounds a little woo woo, but go woo out all.
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: I'm not especially woo, so sometimes I catch myself when I say things Well, you own an art gallery, you live in a space of creativity and innovation and acceptance and I kind of think you're kind of in the woo atmosphere a little bit.
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: I'm woo-woo adjacent.
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: Okay, we'll agree to that.
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: So I think when you think about different things.
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: You said something earlier about feeling worthy of joy, and did you actually think you weren't worthy of joy?
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: It never occurred to me to think that it was something I should want for myself.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: I thought it was an outcome of accomplishing things Right.
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: Were you happy?
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: No, well, happy is a super loaded word.
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: I always say like I'm really happy, you feel happy, I guess.
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it wasn't like I wasn't not going out.
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: You know if anyone some of my best friends from college had no idea I was suffering.
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so, because I have lived so long in my skin as that version of myself and I knew I was lucky.
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: I always talked about how lucky I was to have these friends and my family and amazing parents and these jobs, but inside I was in an inordinate amount of pain, and so I didn't know that joy and fulfillment should be available to me just because I'm a human being.
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: I thought it was a formula If you accomplish these things, you earn that right.
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: You earn worthiness by doing, not by being yeah.
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: So what blew up the equation for you?
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: Well, I was 40 years old and lying in bed on a girl's trip with tears streaming down my cheeks that nobody knew about.
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: And you said enough, something's got to give right.
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: Another bold move.
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: I was in so much pain that I thought I have to do something.
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: I can't feel this way for 40 more years.
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: You know, I had previously thought about therapy and the truth is I was so frightened, I was so terrified that if I started therapy, that the therapist would just say well, this is just life, this is what it feels like to be human, so good luck.
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: And so then I was like well then, what will I do?
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: What if it doesn't help?
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I think I said to him, the problem I'm trying to fix is me, right?
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: So it's messy, it's bold, it's overwhelming, it's vulnerable, it's scary.
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: I think in your journey you also learned things about.
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: You know your mom and in that time and you know you did come home and there were only a few months left.
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: Is there anything that came out of that time that for you kind of resonates, that connects back to you?
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: Know some of the things that you were going through, or some of the things that you were.
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: You know that.
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: You've written about in your book that you that you learned from Well, I had learned my mother shared with me when I was gosh 24 I think I should know these days that she had been struggling with depression for most of her adult life and she opted to use meds to help with her depression, which is, you know, I'm so glad she was doing like you were.
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: Growing up you didn't know, okay, no.
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: And so she knew I had started therapy and she was, but we didn't really talk about it.
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, explicitly.
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: She just she knew I was suffering and hurting and was happy that I was trying to get the help I needed.
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: And so by the time I came home to the farm to be with her, I was sort of five years in, and that's what I'm careful about in the book, because if you just tell the story of what happened over the course of a year at the farm, you know it's like so much more to it.
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: I got out of corporate life.
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: I fell in love with the right kind of person for the first time.
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: At age 45 I opened an art gallery.
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: Right, it's all like that's a hallmark, a hallmark and I'm like, well, let's slow down.
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: I'd started therapy five years before.
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, there's another version of the story where I come home and she dies and I go back to New York and get another big job.
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: So the best part is is that she and my dad both knew and adored the man that I fell in love with.
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: So she got to see us sort of falling in love at the very end of her life and that was really lovely.
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so special.
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so special.
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: And again, you can't make it up, right, but it happened.
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: I was there, it happened.
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, did you have to accept you first before you could let someone else actually love you?
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: Like, yes, it's like, yeah, stupid cliche songs, right, justin bieber, learn, go and love yourself.
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: Right, we know I was thinking very dustin bieber, right, we know the cliches.
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: And then what happens?
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: We've all heard it.
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: The worst one of all is love will find you when you least expect it.
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: Well, I was at the lowest stage of my life.
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: I had no job, no car, no apartment.
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: I was living in my childhood bedroom.
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: My dad had died the year before my mom's cancer came back.
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: I mean the furthest thing from my mind Not optimal dating setting, right, you know, oh, my gosh, yeah, so.
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: And then it happened, yeah, so one of the thing I think at the heart of your book is just the complexity of relationships, and the relationships with self you know we've talked a lot about that and then our relationship with others, whether it's our friends or our parents or our spouses or you know, even those.
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: You know that we're dating.
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: Like what did you uncover, as you were kind of writing line by line, chapter by chapter, around the complexities that come into play what's first and then?
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: Are there any relationships that you learned the most about with the layers of complexity?
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: I think all relationships are influenced by the relationship you have with yourself.
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree, family, romantic work.
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: If you can get your house in order, you show up differently for people.
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: There's a chapter it's one of my favorite chapters in the book where I have this discussion with my boyfriend.
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: His name is Camilla and I imagine I'm in the scene.
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: And while I'm in the scene in this diner, I imagine what the previous version of myself would have said and we would have been in some big fight and I would have stormed out because I would have made what he said about me right, because in all my previous relationships I was looking for validation.
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: I was always testing does he love me enough?
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: If he does that, it's a sign that I'm not enough.
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: It means this yeah, I mean, I only dated men who allowed me to keep feeling like shit about myself.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: Right, I sought them out and then I get my head right and and I can let this beautiful human being say what he needs to say.
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: He's choosing me to share something with, and so my point is only because I've done the work and have a better relationship with myself, can I show up for him in the way that is best for him.
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: Not always I show up for him in the way that is best for him.
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: Not always Does that make sense.
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: Again, it starts with you Like, again, we're kind of, we're throwing cliche after cliche here, but I think they're there for a reason.
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: Honestly, like, if you're like you said, you said your house, you know.
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: Like, if you don't have, like you know, homeroom and good shape, it's going to be difficult to have interactions with other people, and you won't even know it, unless you realize that it's you that you have to love it.
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: You, you have to accept it.
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: You, you have to believe in it.
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: You, you have to realize like, yeah, it wasn't perfect and I wasn't perfect, but I deserve to be loved, I deserve to be happy.
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: You know, if I'm a size two or a size 16, I'm still me in here.
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: Yes, you know, and you know, and even if you're like I have, sometimes in my body I have a physical instinct to go back to patterns.
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: I'm like wait a minute, we're not doing that today.
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't have time for that.
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: Is there one pattern that's like a bigger pattern, that's like a domino one that leads to the next, the next, or is it just different, different kind of levels of them that you kind of pay attention to now?
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: Well, I'll tell you two things.
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: Well, I'll tell you one thing for sure, because I wrote about this on LinkedIn, about, let's call it two months ago.
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: So the book was coming, we had the publication date, I was shipping out advanced copies, starting to get feedback, and I had had this awful gnawing anxiety and I don't really think I have anxiety and it took me about two or three weeks to articulate it to my therapist and I was like, oh, I know what it is.
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: I'm afraid I'm going to be sucked into the vortex, the chasing gold stars, with this book.
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: I've written a stupid book and now all I'm going to care about is are you on the list?
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: Am I on the list?
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: And I was like I'm so mad at myself for, like, putting myself back there.
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: I don't want to be back, I don't want to be that person.
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and he was.
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: Like he always says, let's go slowly, his name is David, let's go Right.
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: I like that.
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he was like hold on on a second.
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: You used to chase salaries and titles.
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: Right right now, you've written a gorgeous book sharing a story.
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: It's okay to want people to respond to it.
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: Can you separate the desire for healthy success yeah, and unhealthy success and unhealthy success?
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: And I thought, oh, yes, I can do that, right.
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: So that that was a pattern that's in me, I know it.
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: The other thing and we can talk about this for 17 hours, I don't want to is that you know, menopause is hard on a gal, and I think it's especially hard on those of us who have suffered some eating disorder stuff.
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: And I tried to pretend like I was immune to it.
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: I've tried to pretend like I accept myself and love myself, and it's hard.
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: And so I opened that can of corn with him a few weeks ago.
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: I'm like I'm the corn is right, I'm not okay right now with this and he was like I'm not so Right.
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: But then you open it up and take a look at it and you're like I can do that, I can handle this.
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm gonna go slowly, I like his advice and you're gonna kind of walk through it, but don't be in denial of it.
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: I think like I was in denial of it, but I think, you know, from the perspective of just accepting that our bodies are going through a different phase of life, just like, like we are, and sometimes they may not be perfect or where we want them to be but I was like in denial, like I was like I don't know what all this hype's about, I'm fine, I'm doing this.
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: I was like why can't I lose the weight?
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: Why am I feeling depressed?
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: Why can't I sleep?
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: I did not connect the dots, I just thought those were just and I didn't, I didn't say the word depressed.
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: But now I look back and go, oh, that's what that was, you know, because I'd never felt like that before, ever.
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: And so, and then I was, oh, that's actually something you can feel when you're in perimenopause and moving into you know.
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: It was just like, oh, okay.
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: So I think, you know, for me it was also just not being in denial that things are changing and that it's, oh, you know, I don't know, did you ever hold onto something that was changing that you're just like I need to let it go?
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: Oh, I don't think I'm great at letting things go.
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: I things kind of live on different shelves in my head.
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, my best friend calls it the locker room.
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, I'm better at pulling things out, you know.
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: Know, you kind of pull them out and look them over, think, well, does this get energy, does that help?
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: And so it doesn't put it back and leave it there like it's.
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: So I try, I do okay, I do okay, but there's still plenty to talk about in therapy and there are things that continue to surprise me.
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: So so, when you think about the book itself, what do you hope people get out of it?
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: Why did you write it?
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: I wrote it for myself, first and foremost because I was at a gas station crying over, holding onto my steering wheel, and I remember the look on this man's face.
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: He was like are you okay, ma'am, are you okay?
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: And like.
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: All I wanted to say.
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: It was like I'm so happy, I'm so and again, happy is a really loaded word.
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: That was like how did the person who had that life end up with this life?
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: I live in Ohio.
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: I never thought I would come back to Ohio.
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: I own an art gallery.
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: What I'm in love with, like this amazing human being that I never thought I would have, that Like, how did this happen?
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: And so I started writing and for some essays and a writing workshop, I'm like I'm going to try to tell this story and you know it's not a not interesting story, right, these things all happened.
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I also love the craft of writing.
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: That's probably the first art form that was sexy to me.
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: Like I think a good sentence like you can't beat a good sentence, right, yeah, but yeah, I just got into the process and there are universal themes.
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: We are, we are of the age losing parents and I wanted to honor that process and what it feels like.
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: I wanted to shed some light on how I learned to stop hating myself so much, because I do know that a lot of women in particular are carrying this unnecessary pain around in them, are carrying this unnecessary pain around in them.
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: I'm very clear that it's not a self-help book.
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: I'm not a doctor, I'm not a psychiatrist.
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: It's a story.
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: But to the extent that the story, my story, can give other people hope, I'm great with that.
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: Or some people might just read it because it's entertaining and a lot of people don't know what it's like to grow up in Southeastern Ohio.
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: The farm is very much a character in the book.
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: When you laid out the book, what was your thought pattern around how you laid it out?
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: Because I think that's an important kind of it's, this thread that pulls you through the entire book.
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: Obviously it's the story.
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: It's in an order, right, and you're you know the order of things.
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: But just the way that you told your story I think is very unique in how you did the chapters.
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: It isn't your typical at least for me, like your typical way to write a chapter.
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: Well, is that your making or is that just how you want to tell your story or did someone guide you to that?
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: A combination of factors?
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: There are some other amazing memoirists who play with structure and I've been reading a ton of memoirs.
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: But the chaptering they're short, right, but I'd like to say that I'm smart enough that it was all calculated.
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: A lot of it was about the fact that there are some really heavy topics and some hard scenes and I wanted to give people a chance to breathe.
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: Even the designers who put it together for me thought I was a little bit nuts because I was insistent that there are no indented paragraphs.
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: There's a line break, a hard line break between paragraphs.
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: Again, space I want space on the page and it's flush left and flush right because I wanted it to be a physically beautiful book and allow breath, the words to breathe, right, yeah, yeah, the words are breathing, you know, in a way, with that space.
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: Oh, I'm glad you picked up on that.
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because that's really rewarding.
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: It's rewarding when people relate to the kind of a piece of art it is Throw that back at you, right, you know so it should be like maybe in a gallery, you know.
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: Well, the cover is by a local artist named Joey Monsoon and for listeners, it's actually a portrait of me.
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: As soon as I decided the book was ready, I knew that was the cover and his paintings are never, never, no one would ever call his paintings beautiful.
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: They're interesting, they're a little weird.
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: Um, there's like a floating ear.
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: You're layered.
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: When I look at that, that's like one of those I would be like.
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: That's layered and has like meaning that I can't figure out yet that's's what I would have.
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: It's messy and complicated, just like human beings.
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so that.
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: And I did a hard cover and no dust jacket because I wanted it to look like a piece of art.
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: Even if someone doesn't read it, it looks pretty on their coffee table.
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that too.
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so I can relate to making sure it looks good as well as it's well-written and really represent you, right?
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so, as we kind of close out, as you think about someone who maybe is listening and they're like I think I have like some of this, like this is connecting with me around, I'm chasing joy.
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: I'm feeling not enough.
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: You're not talking kindly to yourself, which I think a lot of people don't.
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: Where would they start?
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: Where would you advise them to begin?
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: Like what's the first step, realizing you don't want to live that way anymore?
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: Honestly, I think so.
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: Or, you know, I hope for some people it doesn't have to get as severe as it did.
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, me, okay.
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: First of all, admit that you want something to change.
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: There you go.
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, admit that you want something to change.
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: Ask a friend what you're going to find out.
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: If you ask a friend who seems to have it all together.
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: There might be suffering too, yeah, but you know, I think some people I'm a therapy head, I believe in therapy, but it's not for everyone.
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: Sometimes it's a life coach, sometimes it's a friend who's willing to have those kind of candid conversations ask for help.
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: You know, I'm just like it's 2024 times are wasting.
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: Ask for the help you need, even if you don't know what it is.
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and find a way to describe to the extent you can.
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: I described it as cassette tapes don't exist anymore, but I had a running tape from the time I woke up until the time I went to bed of negativity, this voice of you're not enough, you're not successful, you're too fat, you're not pretty.
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: My ability to describe that to my therapist helped us navigate, and so my advice is A Admit it.
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: A admit it Even.
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: Say it to yourself before you say it aloud or write it down.
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: I want something to change and I can do this right.
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: Then you'll find out you can, and then you're like why did I wait so long?
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: Very important to me is that none of this happened overnight for me.
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was slow and messy, but I say in the book, even after my first appointment with David the therapist, I walked out the door in New York City to make you cry and I remember like thinking this is really going to be hard, but I think it's going to be good.
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: Right like I can do this and I think that's rewarding.
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: You know, you might need to be kind to yourself and take time for something you need so and I think that's a bold move.
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: And I always say bold doesn't equal easy.
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: No, ever I don't.
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: I can't think of a bold moment in my life.
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: That was.
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: I would say, oh, that was easy, that was a piece of cake, it's.
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: It's hard as hell, yeah, yeah.
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: So thank you so much for your vulnerability, for sharing your journey, all the information about Sarah, her art studio and her book, which everyone should have on their shelf.
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: Please do check it out in episode notes.
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being on the boldounge and for sharing your story.
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you for listening to the Bold Lounge podcast.
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: Through the continuum of bold stories, vulnerability to taking a leap, you will meet more extraordinary people making a positive impact for others through their unique and important story.
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: By highlighting these stories, we hope to inspire others and share the journey of those with a bold mindset.
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: We hope you've enjoyed this podcast and look forward to sharing the next bold journey with you.